Rates & Barrels - Max Fried to the Yankees! Day 2 from the Winter Meetings in Dallas

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Eno and DVR discuss an eight-year deal for Max Fried and the Yankees, and an Andrés Giménez trade involving the Guardians and Blue Jays. Plus, Keith Law joins the show to discuss Kyle Tucker as a fallback option for teams that missed on Juan Soto, Carlos Correa and Bo Bichette as targets for teams seeking a shortstop, and Keith's path into baseball. Reds International Crosschecker Philip Stringer joins the show to discuss his role and career path, and MLB Network Radio's Mike Ferrin joins the show to offer up advice for those looking to break into baseball broadcasting.18:30 Keith Law Joins the Show! Rundown 43:19 Philip Stringer Joins the Show! 1:01:07 Mike Ferrin Joins the Show Follow Eno on Bluesky: @enosarris.bsky.social Follow DVR on Bluesky: @dvr.bsky.social e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Subscribe to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Hosts: Derek VanRiper & Eno Sarris With: Keith Law, Philip Stringer & Mike Ferrin Producer: Brian Smith Executive Producer: Derek VanRiper Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Music Welcome to Rates and Barrels Tuesday, December 10th, day two of the winter meetings here at the Hilton, Anatol, Derek and I, for Enos Serres here with you. We've got a bunch of great guests lined up again today. We've got Keith Law from The Athletic joining us a bit later in the show.

Philip Stringer, international cross-checker from the Cincinnati Reds stops by, and Mike Farron from MLB Network Radio. But the good news, Eno, aside from the great guests, we have breaking news to begin this episode. Max Fried is headed to the Yankees. Eight years, 218 million dollars according to Jeff Passon of ESPN. I didn't think Fried was gonna get eight years and we knew the Yankees had to pivot somehow with the money they were

hoping to give to Juan Soto. I didn't think it'd be this much for this long for a pitcher. It's too many years and too much money for me. I know that I'm pretty sure that dollars per win is going up in this free agency and that we're talking about a number that'll settle when it's all said and done around $12 million per win. So that'll explain some of the big numbers that you're seeing on these deals.

And so maybe some of them aren't as big overpays as they first seem. We used to be thinking about dollars per win and sort of the eight to nine to 10. I think we've crossed over that. People are, it's post-COVID now. We're through that. We're through, I think, some of the TV issues.

Like maybe that's, teams just feel like that's gonna be figured out. You know, we're through I think some of the TV issues, like maybe that's teams just feel like that's gonna be figured out, you know, we're in the middle of a CBA so maybe this is gonna be a lurch forward. So I'm not maybe as worried about the money as I am the eight years because we're talking about a guy who's already had TJ once, he's 30 years old, and he also had, you know, forearm flexor problems which are, you know, at least from a peer-reviewed study that I've seen, a preview for Tommy John. So if he has a second Tommy John, now the risk is higher.

Also from an Arsenal standpoint, I do like how many pitches he's throwing now. That's a great part of Max Fried's progression over time. But what I don't love is that I don't think the fastball is of amazing quality. That's a great part of Max Fried's progression over time. But what I don't love is that I don't think the fastball is of amazing quality. And so he's already kind of pushing the old pitcher tricks. Using the fastball less, having a really wide arsenal. How much more can he de-emphasize the fastball you know and and still be as good this good a pitcher so I do think that being a left hander in

Yankee Stadium is a good man it's a good mix because you suppress you suppress some of that lefty pull power you know by him being left on left so it is a good mix to have somebody in there. But the most money all time to a lefty, you know, it's way past Tim Britton's projection, which was five years and $140 million. It just seems like, you know, at least two years too many. If I'm going to give eight years to somebody on this market, it's Corbin Burns. Corbin Burns, because he's been that workhorse, right?

He's already showing a higher velocity floor, hasn't even lost that much off of the cutter over the last few years. The fastball's better, the primary fastball's better. So you can see a few steps down over time not being as costly. Great job by Brian Smith our producer here getting us a couple notes here as we we get rolling with this episode and I'm looking at the freed strikeout rates I mean that's not his that's not his main strength right you see 23% most years is sort of the number right now

it's really suppressing homers and limiting walks and even just moving into Yankee Stadium out of the ballpark in Atlanta like for a home park that's gonna put a little bit more strain on Fried as well even though I think as a some of the ground ball heavy pitcher maybe tougher yeah a little tougher division a little tougher ballpark I think it's gonna be an uphill battle for him out again if you were planning to get one Soto and you lost him in the best way to improve your team is to go out and get the top players you can get and say okay well we might be a little worse with our lineup we're gonna be better in our rotation we're gonna have the best playoff rotation in

the American League or maybe in the entire league and if that's the goal that's the pivot that's not the worst pivot in the world even if it's more years and more money than you want because, you're the Yankees at the same time. If you're budgeting 710 or 715 for Soto, well, you only use the small part of that to bring in Max Free. You still have more in the tank to go out and make other moves, be that other free agents or possibly a big splash via trade. Yeah, they still have some options. There's still some other free agents available. There might be a trade available. This is have some options there's still some other free agents available there might be a trade available this is probably not you know

one move and done so you have to think about this in the context of other things that they're gonna do and also I don't want to give forth the impression that I don't think Max Reed is a good pitcher he's a very good pitcher it's more just a nervousness about the size of that contract and the length which you know there's also a cost of business element to it. I mean, Wansodo's contract was for 15 years, which is, you know, a lot longer than eight. And even Adamas's deal was pretty long.

So, you know, this is the cost of doing business, I think. Yeah, this Freed signing sort of blows the other signings out of the water that we had on the run down for today. Oh yeah, Freed and company. But other moves just to get everybody caught up since we didn't talk about them on the Monday episode. Alex Cobb ends up with the Tigers and I look at the Tigers right now as being in a pretty good position. We don't know how much ownership will push payroll compared to some of the final years of Mike Ilic being alive right like that could be slightly different the ceiling

might not be as high but they seem like an organization that has room to spend so they could be in on some top-end free agents I think the Tigers also have the benefit of being one of the better places for pitchers to go on a one-year deal so it could be guys at the end of their career that are just trying to get one or two more years, and the ballpark's good, Chris Fetter's a great pitching coach. Who else is in that conversation? What other organizations make a lot of sense

for pillow deals? The Dodgers, I think, for years have been like that, too. People like the park in San Francisco. San Francisco is a good one, too, yeah. I think people like Ruben Niebla, and it's a decent park there, too. Yeah, I mean, there's the. I think people like Ruben Niebla. Yeah. And it's a decent park there, too. So there's some places.

I think the Mets are trying to establish themselves as a place like that. I think I'm not sure that people think of Philadelphia as that place, because the park isn't great. But I think, for me, Caleb Cothan is one of the best pitching coaches in baseball. So if I was a prospective free agent, I'd at least think about it.

But Tigers, it's a nice thing where the pitching coach is good and the park is good. So you're gonna get two boosts. I think for Alex, actually, it's maybe not so much about getting a next contract. I think the injuries are piling up. It's just been hard for him to stay on the field, and it's not just one thing anymore.

It's kind of one of those things where a lot of different parts hurt. He's just like me this morning waking up Feeling feeling pain in every part of their body And so I just think he's he's taking short-term deals. I wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me incredibly if this was his last deal, but You know and then you know he has a previous relationship with the GM there Scott Harris it wouldn't also surprise me if he transitioned to the front office pretty quickly from his playing days he is a bright bright young man with I did just call him old but you know

relative to me he's young as an executive he'd be young. Young for an executive but you know not young for a major league starting pitcher. But yeah, I think given the need for innings in that Tigers rotation, they're getting younger, they have a lot of guys they're going to lean on. I think having some glue in the form of Alex Cobb, even if it's for 110, 120 innings this year, might go a long way. A few relievers signing new deals. Blake Tryon stays with the Dodgers, two years, 22 million.

I think we've talked a lot about this bullpen and our belief that Michael Kopek probably stays in it and is their primary closer, even if they don't settle on one guy for all of the save opportunities. They do spread it around, but if you said a 65 or 75% share

of the saves went to Michael Kopek, I don't think I'd fight against you, even though Trinen is back in the fold. I'm nervous about the Trinen signing, honestly. It makes sense. They know their medicals better than anybody, so maybe they're fine with it. But, you know, there's been... The injuries have been piling up for Blake Trinen, too. I'm not even sure... I know this is ironic to say about a guy who just threw 98

in like a 50-pitch, in like a 50 pitch, you know, World Series, you know, clutch performance, but I'm a little bit worried even about some declining stuff there. And so I don't know. The over-under for innings on this contract for me, for Blake Trinenan might be 70 80 maybe it's more just are you available at the right time so you available they're happy they're happy with the injury risk that's that's been true yeah they can take on about as much of it as anybody in the game right now but Jordan Romano joins the Phillies one year seven point seven five million trying it was two for twenty two with a five million dollar signing bonus by the way.

What are the Blue Jays doing? What the hell? This 7.75 is what he would have made in arbitration. Why didn't they just... It's worth it. It's a one year deal. He was your closer. You're not going to... This is like ill will. This is like ill will forming among players. It's penny pinching. I don't know that it's like on the level of what happened with JD Davis in San Francisco,

but it's not gonna endear you to players. And if you're trying to go out here and get Juan Soto and spend all this money, they went from, you know, maybe making a $700 million offer on Juan Soto in the same breath, they were like, cut Jordan Romano because we like him at $4 million or $5 million, but not $7.75. That's... Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr group. You've talked to them. I've spoken to Carson before.

He does not sound like that. He doesn't sound like that. I don't think it was Carson. That was my moneybags GM voice. That was the business side coming out. Business McBusiness. So I think the thing about Romano that maybe leaves a little space for the Blue Jays to not be as deserving as your criticism, in this instance anyway, is that

Romano's expected to be healthy after arthroscopic surgery in July, but he didn't come back from that. And I think they're... He didn't demonstrate it. Yeah, it's uncertainty. As far as like pinching pennies, yeah, the Blue Jays are a big market team that could spend a lot, but if they were worried about his health and really thought they needed either a discount or a multi-year deal that was more to their liking, I'm not fully defending it, but I think the health is a factor here. Yeah, it's a big one.

For the Phillies, you know... And maybe the Blue Jays know more than anybody else, because they performed, they had the surgery and then they saw him. I think our assumption with the Phillies is they're probably not going to have a lot of room to go above anything they lost in free agency, right? So Jeff Hoffman's a free agent right now, Carlos Estevez, who they acquired mid-season. And both of those guys are going to get more money than one year and eight million. Yeah, so it's trying to backfill and taking out a little bit of injury risk to do it.

He might end up closing for them. I think if he's healthy, he's easily the favorite, and there's maybe an opportunity there from a fantasy perspective as well as long as everything looks good through spring training right if he shows up to spring and is on the same schedules of the relievers I think you can start to put that elbow surgery the minor elbow surgery a little further in the past. Roki Sasaki officially posted so and we knew this was coming and there's a 45 day window that's now open for him to sign with an MLB club through January 23rd.

I don't think it would be a situation where nothing comes up to his liking. I think this is absolutely happening. It's a procedural step, right? One interesting thing was that his agent, Joel Wolfe, had a little scrum and was talking about it and admitted in the scrum that he did not have a good sense for what Roki was gonna do or even how he was going to evaluate teams. I don't know maybe that's games and shit he

just doesn't want to like tip Roki's hand at all but like if it's true that's that's kind of funny. That means he's a it's a total wild card and he could pick a place where he liked the sushi, or a place where he's got a cousin that lives in town. We don't know. I still keep looking at the Padres. We talked about it a couple weeks ago as the spot that makes a lot of sense, given how much he looks up to you, Darvish.

That could be a short time breaker. And there was some intimation that he did not really enjoy the way that he was covered by the press in Japan, and that he may want a smaller market destination where he doesn't get as much media scrutiny. So check this out, some other breaking news, not of the free agent signing variety or the trade variety, but the draft lottery results just came in.

The Washington Nationals landed the number one overall pick in the 2025 draft. Just number one with a bullet. They've turned this around way quicker than I thought they would. And this is a big boon for them as an organization. We have some analysis from Chad Jennings on the live blog. If you wouldn't want to follow along, the winter meetings,

the live blog is a good space to look in. Chad Jennings mentioned that one of the biggest losers of this draft life is the Marlins, who were tied with the Rockies for the best odds of getting number one overall. They ended up seven. And the Rockies for the best odds of getting number one overall. They ended up seven. And the Rockies, who were also tied for number one,

ended up four. So those are the big losers in the lottery. Other than the Nationals, a big winner is the Mariners. The Mariners are picking third, despite having the 15th best record in the majors. So that is a big boon for them. That is a shot in the arm and it is something that they will hopefully use to to get over the hump I mean they it's

been it's a long time coming in Seattle they there's they need some good news yeah I just keep thinking the Nats it there's some franchises they they land that first overall pick at just the right time you think about it with Steven Strasburg think about it with Stephen Strasburg, think about it with Bryce Harper. This can be somebody that can be in the majors in a year. Yeah, absolutely. So we'll dig into that a bit in the future.

Is there more breaking news? Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do Okay, we're just talking about the Blue Jays. Breaking news from Jeff Passon. The Blue Jays are finalizing a trade to acquire Andres Jimenez from the Guardians. Okay, now we're doing something. Weird. But no, that is just weird because he's a top-ten defender, but is he a much better bat than Spencer Horowitz or Davis Schneider? Is he a much better bat than Spencer Horowitz or David Schneider. Is he much better bat than those guys? He does it a different way, but I mean, are you really that down on Andres Jimenez? I mean, it was a really bad year offensively.

I think when I look at that team, I am at least now seeing more of a direction. Clearly, you're valuing plus defense, you get a ton of contact. Are we just dismissing the possibility of an actual bounce back? No, no, I'm not. I'm not. Yeah, that's totally a possibility. I'm not trying to... And he does do some things well that fit that lineup, I think, pretty well. And they needed to do something with the bottom of the lineup. Because I think you were right.

You were talking a little bit about the group that they brought together, Loper Fido, Davis Schneider, Spencer Horwitz, Will Wagner. They're all OK-ish. But I think they might all be better as super utility guys, almost all of them. Or like, sort of situational players or platoon players, like none of them are like, aha, that guy I want to make sure I have in the lineup.

You could hit on one, possibly two as either big side platoon or maybe regulars, you're not hitting on all of them. Yeah. Right, and I think that's what I saw at the bottom of the lineup that didn't make any sense. Even if Andre Jimenez just goes back to the five and a half percent barrel rate we saw in 2023, right was 6.2% and then 5.5%. And then it just dropped off to 2.8%. Power is not his calling carbon. If he gets that, that low double digit, you know,

mid teens power back, steals bases like he does and plays great defense. I think that goes a pretty long way. I don't think he's ever going to be a 371 OBP guy again the way he was in 2022, right? That's the outlier. And to me, I think the reason I'm so down on him is that the power was never really, I think, legit. I mean, yes, he had some homers, but like the underlying power numbers have never been really that favorable to his power So it's you know

He's gonna have to find a way to be to make medium power work Which of course with the lead defense and good speed and really good speed like it's it's gonna be he's gonna be fine He's gonna be good. I'm just you know it I'm worried about him as a bat like I don't think it's the greatest bat Don't know what the other side of that trade is just yet So it'll be interesting to see what the Guardians get back. Don't know if we're going to have that here in the next few minutes. Sometimes it takes a little while for those things to trickle in.

But a nice move for the Blue Jays in the general sense, because I think they need a couple more established regulars to round out that lineup. And perhaps this is a sign that they'll be holding on to Boba Shet. You know, there's a lot of rumors going around. More on that later. Yeah, got a little more on that a little bit later in the show. With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead.

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So we're in waiting mode right now since the one Soto deal went down on Sunday night. How would you spend seven hundred and sixty five million dollars? I would buy an island off the coast of Italy and none of you would ever hear from me ever. A Ron Swanson maneuver to an island. Delete all footsteps.

I understand. Was never here. That's the proper flex, I think, of the things you could do with all that money. There are some interesting rumors floating around, though. One of them is that the Astros are entertaining offers for Kyle Tucker, and I thought, if you missed out on Juan Soto,

and you were seriously actually pursuing, and there are a few teams that I think were unserious, but somehow linked to him, Kyle Tucker is a pretty darn good fallback option, even though it's the final year before it's free agency. So you got a shot to extend him. Which teams that were in on Soto have the most compelling packages to actually get a deal done for Kyle Tucker?

Red Sox come to mind immediately because they've got a couple of very high-end prospects. And although, and I guess you could also throw Tristan Casas in there too Not a prospect nominally, but very young cost-controlled Productive when healthy that they could put together a pretty compelling package Can you work wise it seems like they're a little bit need more needy on the arm side. Yes. I agree I absolutely agree that would be I think a bit more of let's make a big splash, which I don't know.

They've been cheap the last couple of years. And so for them to suddenly be engaging, like when they first started engaging with Soto, I thought they were unserious, like you were saying. I would have put them in the unserious bucket. But then as time went on, it seemed like they were actually serious about it. And maybe its ownership is finally saying, we're going to spend some money again. They're at the like they were actually serious about it. Maybe it's the ownership is finally saying we're gonna spend some money again.

They're at the point they should certainly be spending money. I heard they topped out around 710. That seems serious. Yeah. That is not an unserious number. I think you could disappear with your own island even with 710 million dollars. I could make it work. Absolutely. But one question I had is if you thought that the Yankees had the package.

I think not I may be a little lower on their system, but after Jason Dominguez I think it's a pretty big drop-off actually it's being not a big Spencer Jones guy I am NOT I mean he is I've never trusted the approach of never trusted the pitch recognition He strikes out a ton, and he does not adjust. I mean, yeah, it is problematic swing and miss. We see some guys, Adonis swings and misses a bit more than you'd like, but there have been adjustments.

There has been a refinement in the approach and Spencer Jones got to double A and they just took advantage of him all day long. And he's got great tools, but I just don't, he's a very good baseball player and that is, you know, I wouldn't want to headline a package with him. Now I will say one thing I know teams that are much less scouting focused and much more data focused some

of them really like Spencer Jones because the exit velocities are bonkers and he I give him credit I did not think he would be this good in center field he is very very good in center field so you're talking center field it's real speed and it is top top end exit velocities. A lot of people would say that's a pretty good formula. Could also be Jose Siri though. Yes, exactly. You know, it would surprise me if the Yankees had a good package just because they just

did Soto. They kind of cleaned up any extras that they had. Yeah. They would have to, it would have to be something off the Major League roster. I mean, like it would have to be Jason or I mean, I don't think they get there with Spencer Jones and Oswald Paraza. No, no. You know, maybe like if they, I don't think they should even entertain this, but you know,

Luis Gil would obviously have a ton of value. You could say, well, we're selling high, we're rookie of the year. He was really good when he was healthy this year. Coming back off Tommy John surgery. I mean, it could make the argument they need him. I just don't see that that's not making the club better. So, you know, the name I randomly threw out there was not based on any rumors. Like, could they trade for Seiya Suzuki? Because I think he fits what they need in a lot of ways. I don't think it would cost a ton in terms of prospects. The Cubs seem to be looking to move some payroll somewhere. It's not as much of a splash as Tucker is.

Tucker, obviously, his peak value is a lot higher. Maybe that's a better fit for the Yankees and something they could reasonably pull off. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. What do you do if you're the Yankees and you're trying to fill an offensive hole. You know, Cody Ballinger comes to mind. Should be easier to get even than, say, a Suzuki.

I agree. And you know, Willie Domus was an opportunity, maybe, to add an infield bat. They could have used that. Are they running out of options to really, are they going to back themselves into Pete Alonso? That's my worry. I was going to say, are they going to themselves into Pete Alonso or? That's my worry, I was gonna say are they gonna back themselves into Teasca Hernandez but I think it's the same general point, right? These are guys who, they're fine,

they're perfectly fine players, you're happy to have them, they don't really move the needle and they're not, you know, the Yankees just lost a lot of on-base percentage, right? Not to oversimplify but that is Soto's main thing and then you look at everybody else on that Yankees roster after the big guy and they're not gonna put a lot of runners on base as currently constituted. So if you want to replace that, that's how I actually landed on Suzuki as an idea because he does do that. He's probably the highest on base guy left out there in either free agency or guys we think might be traded. It's a short short list and they could go get power. I also

feel like it's Kinky Stadium. You can kind of make the power. You can find middling power guys and they get a little bit better there. I mean the bottom of their lineup for how good they were as a team wasn't that great so you can maybe try to extend the bottom of the lineup. Get Christian Walker. He would be great. That's a really good one. Add some guys that aren't as expensive. Won't add up to the $50 million that you would have spent on Soto, but can extend the line up and just, you know, you'll be judge and company rather than the dynamic duo.

Yeah, and you don't want to roll John Bertie out there as your first baseman in the playoffs. I actually forgot, Christian Walker is a great name for you. He'd be an awesome fit in a lot of different ways. And I mean, it's the easiest thing. Shorter deal. Shorter deal. Has been deal has been incredibly consistent, production-wise, the last couple of years. It's the most obvious hole on the roster.

That is easily the place you could... And hits the ball harder than Anthony Rizzo did. So it's not Anthony Rizzo Redox necessarily. Good point. It's, you know, age-wise it is, but not necessarily in terms of what the bat is like. Good defender at first too. Yeah, really good defender.

I did see some whispers that Carlos Correa could be on the move. Like, Twins would entertain that. They're in a weird spot right now, right? The team is exploring a sale. It doesn't sound like payroll is going up at all. And they may have to move either Correa or Pablo Lopez or do something at the top of their roster to free up room if they want to add anybody.

Yep. If you're a team in need of a shortstop, are you still interested in Carlos Correa, given what we've seen injury-wise for him these last two years? It's just two more chapters to a great player's story that continue to be marred by these ongoing health problems. I think probably yes, because the upside is so good.

You are taking on extra risk, but understanding the reward, if you get 150 games out of them, the rewards are pretty high. I understand that, and there are probably a lot of teams, especially with the middling payrolls, that wouldn't be willing to stomach that kind of risk. But I think if you're a high payroll team with a needed shortstop, maybe you get them and say,

maybe you slide them over to third base. Maybe that keeps them healthy. I doubt it. I'm just kind of making that up But like it's a possibility at least I mean the Dodgers are gonna run Mookie Betts out of short Yeah, wouldn't Carlos Correa short being like slightly better options. I think so Yeah, I think more than slightly right? Yeah, I mean, I don't don't have their defensive numbers in front of me But I remember Mookie's was not very good. It wasn't it wasn It wasn't very good. And you wouldn't expect him to be. I mean, he didn't play it, and he hadn't even been playing second that much, and he's older, so you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, he's gonna be a top shortstop. Yeah, like credit him for doing it at all. But yeah, Karei would be an immediate upgrade,

and he would kind of check a couple of boxes for the, you know, those poor dodgers, man. Are they ever gonna do something? I was talking with a person at the Twins about this idea that the sale would mean that they have to cut. And he said, well, when you are selling, there's two things you wanna be. You wanna be attractive, you wanna be winning. So you wanna win, but you also don't want long-term money. Coscri's like four years left, I think. It's medium- it's not it's not too bad. It's not that old. He was

making the argument that maybe they could even add but it would have to be short term. Yeah. I feel like there are a lot of decent short term options out there in free agency they could still improve the team with a bunch of short-term deals. Yeah especially on the the pitching side, get somebody to improve your depth and not be in too long. Agreed. Yeah, the Carlos Correa situation's interesting because it's guaranteed through 28.

It's got vesting options for four more years in 29 through 32 and whether or not you can hit those. Those seem not that likely. Yeah, those seem unlikely to vest. But if you are a risk-averse team, you're not going to wait into that pool in the first place. I can't see it. Is he 30? Yeah, 30. He can only be a that pool in the first place. Is he, I can't see it, is he 30?

Yeah, 30. He can only be a shortstop for a couple more years. Yes, I agree. But if that's what you're thinking, right, if you're like, we need a shortstop now. Yes, we need a shortstop now, we'll figure the rest out later. It would be setting aside his health. If you told me he's a shortstop for two years and then moves to third base, I think he'd be really good at third base.

By the way, what do you think? Willi Adames' defensive numbers have slid. How long do you think he can be a shortstop? I think I said maybe two or three years. I mean, it actually made sense for the Giants because they just had nobody. I'm not a Tyler Fitzgerald believer. I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons not to buy into him as a regular there. Marco Luciano can't play shortstop.

They just didn't have any money. If you don't get him, other than Ha Sung Kim, who's got the whole medical question, you just don't know how that's gonna come back. There's nothing else. Right, what else were you gonna do at shortstop? Yeah. It would have been very ironic,

highly ironic if they traded for Carlos Correa. I would have blocked them all the way. Yeah. I guess that's not gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because there's also Boba Shet out there too. I was Korea. I was watching them all the time. Guess that's not gonna happen. Yeah, it's interesting because there's also BoBochette out there too.

The Blue Jays just seem like a team that are stuck right now. Do you try to start tearing it down now? Do you play it out until Vlad hits free agency? I don't like the bottom half of their lineup and I don't know how they're going to string that together to be competitive enough to be a dangerous playoff team in 2025. So I just feel like they're in a spot.

The bullpen's a little light, the rotation's a little light. It's all a little light. What do you think about Bichette? Obviously this year was a nod here for him, but do you see a bounce back? I think probably, but the approach, I talked to him about this in the minor leagues even, and I was like dude you You are so oppo. Do you ever try to pull it? He's all I am trying to selectively pull it But you know it's every year. It's been more oppo

I feel like yeah in the big leagues, and I don't know is he even dressing is he I don't know what why I? prefer I don't know why, I prefer full power. I mean, I just prefer, like I think, just if you pull a barrel, it has way better results. A pulled fly ball is like 300 or 400 points of slugging better than an off-ball fly ball. And that's the part that leaves me cold. It does lead to better contact numbers, and he can be a kind of a high average,

like lowish OVP guy. That's what I think he is, at his best even. I think that's ultimately what he is. I love a guy who can go up, but maybe not a guy who always goes to this extent. The fact that you can show me you can drive the ball the other way, show me especially if you're being pitched that way, that you can do that,

and then obviously pitchers will not only pitch you that way. It's sort of making them on us, yeah. It's more about, you know, get them inside so you can do that and then they then obviously pitchers will not only pitch you that it's me it's sort of making them honest yeah it's more about you know get them inside so you can pull again right yeah yeah and I just wonder if he's are they just tacking him inside and he's just trying to go off but that's not gonna that's not gonna lead to good results yeah I remember Joey Vato was always talking to me about what do I do with the inside pitch that was the thing that he dealt with his entire career. And he tried every different thing. And he was like, oh, I just got to pull it sometimes.

And he's like, oh, right now I'm trying to filet it, where I'm just inside it. And I think that was one of the worst attempts that he had. He was just trying to really filet it to the opposite field, where you're just creating these super spinny, mostly caught fly balls, I think. Yeah. It's one year of Bo, if you make the move. He's a free agent this time, next year.

So... But maybe that's a good time to get it. I think it's a great time to get him. And I think... He's certainly gonna be motivated. Right? There's three consecutive seasons with 20 homers before he played half of this one

because of all the injuries. Yeah. He's done it with this approach before. From a pure evaluation standpoint, he's always been hit over power anyway, when you see hit over power, do you give extra room for adjustments? Is it possible for a guy who's 26 years old to reinvent himself and make that adjustment to get to more pull side power, or is that still an unlikely outcome? Gosh, he's only 26, huh? I feel like he's been around forever.

Well, because he was such a big prospect, too, so we were so aware of him for so long. I mean, what am I telling you? Yeah, yeah, right. I just remember seeing him in high school, and I'm like, oh my god, my daughter was like, right? She was like 10, she's in college now. She doesn't compute.

It's a good question. It's almost a bit of a sliding scale. The older they get, the less you're willing to ride with that. When I see an amateur player, particularly a high school player, it's hit over power, but you think physically there are reasons he could come into power. That's a little different. That's a little different.

Sometimes they don't. Brian Hayes was one of those guys where he could really hit, and he had pretty good size on him. He thought he would get bigger. I thought he'd get bigger and stronger, and I thought it'd be 20 homers. Tiny slashes of it. Yeah. He does it for a minute. We're all like, we got it.

Yes. Send up the flair. He's a big word on the word cloud for our podcast. Yeah. A lot of questions about Brian Hayes. The one thing I would say for Bichette that we haven't brought up here is just the idea of, he's played in one organization his entire career, and it's probably been one philosophy.

Now that's not necessarily true, but do you get him somewhere else where they just literally, it's different voices, it's a different philosophy. Plus urgency. Of free agency. Probably his agent is like, what are you doing? Go hit.

Yeah. I have no idea if the Dodgers would be interested. But isn't that the guy who goes to LA and suddenly hits 30 homers? Oh my god. And we're all like, that Dodger double magic, right? You just, he looks like a big pile of potential to me. He's done so much before.

There are lots of things we liked. He's always had quick hands. He's always had bats. He's a good athlete. The floor seems pretty good. The floor seems pretty good. He plays hard. But also may not be a shortstop, even to 30.

Oh, I agree. He's always kind of looked not like a shortstop. And his offensive numbers have been so-so. So not enough to move him off. Not yet. You want better, I think. Maybe that's the safest way to put it. The top-end defensive numbers have been so-so, so not enough to move him off. Not yet. You want better, I think. Maybe that's the safest way to put it.

If you get a bounce back from Bo Bichette that's in the 4-5 war range, which is where he's lived the previous three seasons before this one, you're probably looking at Will Yadamme's money this time next year. Even with all these questions, even with the blip. Oh, that's a great would you rather. Imagine they were both on the market this year. Imagine we're post bounce back and you have the choice of 180 million dollars to Beau Bichette or

Willie Adamis. I probably would have said Bichette who would you have said? You love Beryl man. I love the pull power. I actually think the defense is better. Adamis's defense's numbers went, but... Better than Bichon's. Still above average. They are, they just are. And if I'm paying $180 million, I know Marcus Simeon got that kind of money. Marcus Simeon to me is the plus plusiest plus makeup

there is in baseball. And I want him to be my leader. I'm not saying that either of these guys are. Actually, I do think Adamas is a little bit of that. Good leader, has been a top stepstep guy has been the leader for two different organizations. I love the idea of Adamus given everything that people are saying about how he was in Milwaukee you've got Luciano there you've got Ramos you know basically entering a second year second real year Matos maybe doesn't have

playing time right now but he's gonna be there you know a couple of really good players of black American origin. It's that top step energy too. Just like that there's somebody, the kind of the buster, they're looking for a face. If I'm giving $180 million, I want somebody that fits that a little bit more. Oh, absolutely.

You know, that's, I don't know Kyle Tucker directly, but there have definitely been people around that organization who say he's not that guy, right? He's not a top step type of guy. He's a really good player. But it's a different kind of makeup and do you want to invest in that where you're paying him to be maybe

the face of the franchise but that's just not who he is. Maybe a bigger market team where he doesn't have to be, like if he's next to Judge or something. If he's next to Judge, exactly. Next to Mokir or whatever. Yeah, and then he can just go hit and not have to be that guy. Not answer as many questions, not be an advertiser.

Not be expected to be a mentor. Not talk to him like that all the time. Right. Right? Right. Keith, before we let you go, your path to where you are today, into baseball and getting to do what you do for this long, how'd you do it?

How'd you get there? I don't know. I was expecting you to tell me. You know, I always tell, especially friends, people I meet who are out, you know, not in our industry. I'm the most accidental baseball writer ever. I never thought this was going to be a career. I always loved baseball and I always liked writing. Writing definitely got me through a lot of classes in college where I was otherwise not paying a whole lot of attention. I kind of write my way out of trouble. But, you know, I had this sort of fluke opportunity with the Blue Jays

through the connections I had to, I knew Billy Bean, I knew Paul D. Podesta, and didn't know JP or Chardy directly, but because of all those connections, he offered me an opportunity to come work with him. But even before that, you were writing at BP? BP and ESPN, all freelance stuff inside. In ESPN, it lot of fantasy content.

What happened before that? Did you ever have the medal art? Did you have your own blog before all that? No, that all started. The first writing on the internet was for BP and ESPN. Yep. Yeah. Who knew, right?

Also, that's 28 years ago. Who did you write for, based off of Spexis? Gary Huckabee was the person I dealt with the most but then Joe Sheehan would be like my main editor. And Gary was kind of, I would say was probably the guy who really brought me into it to do business of baseball writing and some fantasy stuff too because none of those guys were big fantasy players and I was. I wouldn't say I was good at it. I just really liked it. And what was your role in Toronto?

Special assistant, so that doesn't mean a whole lot. I was the stats department. But the joke is, the whole stats, everything fit on a laptop. It is not comparable to what these people are doing today. I don't have a PhD. My wife, who has a PhD, has informed me I'm not allowed to get a PhD or she will divorce me. How much Python do you know?

Yes, it was Perl. I'm old. So it was Perl. But yeah, same idea. And it was a lot of just scraping data. Acquiring data was such a huge part of the job. That it was less, you know, it's just less time for what you'd really call analysis. I mean, some. I don't want to act like we didn't do any, but it wasn't a lot. So much was just getting the data, getting it into usable form, and trying to deal with all the mistakes, and the data was not very clean. Yeah.

But just the idea of having all that data in the draft room, for example, was at the times, 2002 to 2006, it was unusual. Now, of course, it's the norm. But we just didn't have a whole lot of it, and it just changed our decisions. And honestly, I would say now, it changed a lot of our decisions for the worse, not for the better.

That we lean too much on it in certain cases, particularly in terms of eliminating players, as opposed to just maybe shifting guys on the board. So then we like this guy a little bit more, we like this guy a little bit less. There was a whole lot of like, this guy, you know, I'm being a little simple here, but this guy strikes out too much, just take him off.

Like that's probably not the right, I mean it's definitely not the right approach. And I think we walked away maybe from some guys who we should have been, who we at least should have discussed a lot more, because we leaned a little too much on it. But then after a couple of years there, honestly I wasn't particularly happy,

it was like the work-life balance wasn't very good. When the team wasn't winning, the environment wasn't really so great in the front office. And so I approached somebody I had worked with at ESPN when I was freelancing and said, would you be interested in having me maybe come take the experience I had as a front office executive? Executive, I'm doing the air quotes.

And come write for you guys. Come do analysis. And it turned out at that point they were looking for somebody to do that kind of work. So again, it's a lot of happy accidents. I don't want to take too much credit for my own career. And then, I mean, even special assistants are usually

former players. Yeah, usually. Yeah. I think the other ones we had were former players, actually. They were very nice. Yeah. I mean, I've got to say, the group we had there, so many of them

are still in baseball, still scattered around the game. Alex Anthopoulos was there with me. Billy Gasparino, who's the Dodger scouting director. Mark Trimuda, who just went back to the Blue Jays. He was the Mets scouting director. Now he's their scouting director. Tommy Tanis is the VP of scouting and player development with the Mets.

I mean, it is, we are everywhere. There are a shocking number of us still in baseball and I'm pretty sure I forgot somebody and guys who've really moved up across the sport. It's pretty awesome actually and I feel very very fortunate to have been there at that time. One thing we've been asking people is, you know, I don't know how much hiring you did necessarily in that role but you know you're talking about these people in sort of glowing terms. What did you what do you value about them? You know their temperament, their skills. What did you look for when you were working with people you know on baseball projects? What did what were the kind of things

you were looking for? I just wanted people who were open, who were open-minded and willing to, and I mean this had to apply to me too, I had to change my whole mindset while I was there too. I came in as a numbers guy with no scouting background and pretty quickly sort of realized there's this whole world I do not understand at all and I can reject it or I can learn about it. And you know, Ricciardi at the time was not, particularly despite a scouting background of his own,

he was not particularly keen to have a large scouting staff, he wanted to lean less on scouts and more on the data. And I sort of went, took my own path a little bit and said, I don't think this is working. I don't think we have enough information. I don't think we're making very good decisions. And so- And they were open to that as a group.

Yes, yep. And especially they got, you know, all the guys I just mentioned, Chris Buckley, who's been with the Reds forever now, another guy who, these are all people who took a lot of time to talk to me, to, you know, they wanted to ask questions. What are the things, you know, you think are important? What are the things we should be considering?

But they would also answer my questions. I remember going to see players with a lot of these guys, they would, you know, come through where I was or I'd be where they were. They'll come to this game, let's go see this high school player. A lot of them never turned, Players never turned out to be anything, but I would just sit there and ask dumb questions. You say you don't like such and such in his delivery. What do you see? I don't even know what that is.

Yeah. I started from pretty close to zero and had to learn a lot of that going along. But I also don't think it's a coincidence that people who had that mindset, who were open to asking questions, open to somebody who was asking questions, that they have lasted a really long time in the industry. It does seem like... It could have been easy for them to be like, this guy doesn't know me. Absolutely.

What a lie is he here. I don't look like everybody else, I don't have the same background, I don't talk like a former player, I didn't have the vernacular, so yeah, they could have dismissed me out of hand. Yeah, just trying to fit in seems like a challenge coming from that side. It absolutely was. I mean, it was like a little bit of code switching, right,

where I couldn't, you know, I come from business jobs, jobs in tech, and I've been a management consultant, and I have an MBA. You know, there is a way that people like that talk, and I'm certainly not defending it, if anything. It's ridiculous. But they do it sort of. It's all ridiculous vernacular you know they're like it's a way that people in those industries talk to try to act like they're smarter than you. So you gotta lose that. You can

you do that in this industry they will sniff you out and show you the door. And by the way I would probably do that now like go away take your consultant speak somewhere. Go back to McKinsey. Keith, we appreciate the time and the insight. Love having you on the pod. Thanks for taking a few minutes with us. I assume you set this booth up by the entrance to the hotel just so you could ambush people like me. Force us to come on your show.

That was the goal. It worked. Successful. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Keith. All right, we're back here live in Dallas. We continue to be joined by great guests. Philip Stringer, international cross-checker for the Cincinnati Reds joins us now. Philip, thank you for joining us.

What has been your path into professional baseball? It's the question we've been asking everybody we talked to out here. How did you get to where you are today? Yeah, that's a great question. So my path of baseball was kind of circuitous. So I was a player. I grew up in Houston, Texas and played at Auburn University and played pro ball for a couple of years for the Houston

Astros after my senior year. And after a couple of years playing minor league baseball, you kind of get the call and they tell you whether they're going to keep you around or whether they're going to let you go. I was one of the guys they told to go home. And so I moved back to Houston and kind of get the call and they tell you whether they're gonna keep you around let you go I was one of the guys they told to go home and so I you know I went move back to Houston and kind of had to form you know a new identity as a player you kind of your whole life is set towards a goal and you

have to sacrifice a lot to reach that goal and so when you get done you kind of have to reform your identity figure out what you're gonna do with the rest of your life and kind of what your path is going to be. That was a difficult time. I wouldn't say difficult because I had support around me. I had people, family, friends who knew me and knew who you were outside of Facebook. They helped direct kind of where they thought I could go. And so I ended up working. I got a job working at a law firm in Houston.

Did that for eight months and then worked for a local congressman for about six months. And that was right around the time where the economy tanked in 2008. And so jobs were nil. But I'm surrounded by people with law degrees. So naturally they're all telling me, hey, why don't you go to law school

and you can hide out from a bad economy for a couple years, gain some skills, and hopefully things turn around and on the back end there's some opportunity there. So I didn't know that I wanted to get into baseball. It was really something that I hadn't really considered the post-playing opportunities. But once I started doing more research about the type of law degree I wanted to pursue, I ended up going to Tulane and had a very good sports law program there.

And so the sports law program at Tulane graduated and then got an opportunity working for the Kansas City Royals in their front office. My intern for a year stayed on as an assistant to their pro department and saw just by seeing how the the inner workings of a front office operates the ability to evaluate players is huge. The ability to form your own opinion and to differentiate between things you value and players and things that you know you you don't value is huge. I mean that's only something you can learn by doing it. And so I ended up getting an opportunity to cover an area for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Did that for a couple

years in the Deep South and then moved over to the pro side. Did pro scouting for four years and now I'm doing international work. This is this is my fourth year doing international work for the Cincinnati Reds. Can you tell us somebody you signed with the Dodgers? Yeah, so we had a couple guys who, Graham Ashcraft is one. Oh. You know, a couple of them were guys I thought were going to be sure fired things and didn't work out. Obviously, being with the Dodgers, it's a tough road to hoe, right?

There's a lot of guys. It's a hard to even make the team. I mean, of course. Yeah, of course, of course. And on the pro side, you're involved in a lot of smaller deals. There's going to be a left-hander reliever here or there. But at the time I was with the Dodgers, you are literally helping build a roster for one

of the best teams in the big leagues. And so the opportunities to really impact are more long-term, which kind of rolls into how the role I'm doing now with the Reds is you're helping fill that pipeline for talent for years to come. Yeah. And how different is the role of cross-checker from a scout?

Like what it described to someone who doesn't know what a cross-checker is. So a cross-checker is somebody who essentially assists the director making decisions about players that we're going to assign. So we have scouts who live in these countries and they work for a supervisor there and so they coordinate all the players who need to be seen and evaluated by the cross-check group and the director. And so we are the

last look that we have as an organization before we decide to sign a player. And are your lists, you know, there's a, there's a team maybe sort of database, a team, you know, repository of knowledge. Do you have a mental one that is different? Do you have your own list that you maintain that's actually sort of a physical list? Or is the team list your list?

And, you know, is there, is there a difference between me and we in this role? So every scout is, we try to create a certain level of independence. And so you want guys to go in and use their eyes, use their library of players, use their experience in the game to figure out who they like, who they value, who they want to sign. And so we all come together and work as a group

once guys have formed their own opinions. And we try to form a general consensus about who we want to go grab. And then hopefully we can work that out with the trainers. But yeah, scouts are very opinionated people. Yes. And so if you don't have a level of independence with those opinions, you're going

to run into some issues. But the big thing is at the end of the day is that we're all pulling on the same rope. And we might have differences on the players, how we value them, where we think we should sign them, how much we should sign them for, what we think their long-term outlook is. But that's the whole idea of having a group that

can come together and put their heads together and figure out what's best for the Reds. We try our best to do that. You're talking about, you know, working in these countries, you're working classes ahead. We just had, you know, a bit of a scandal where a guy that they thought was 14 was 19 or whatever, which the weird thing was for me the lead was buried. Why are we talking about a 14 year old? So if you're working classes ahead, how young are some of the youngest guys you're looking at? All the way from I would say 12 to 16.

No, my kid is 12. Yes, yes, yes. My kid is 12. I didn't think you would say that number. Yeah, it's, I didn't get into scouting thinking that I would be scouting kids that young. I think that it's problematic in a lot of ways. Yes.

I think we're forced to be a little better at this job than what we actually are. But at the same time, there are a lot of things you can identify in younger players that are precursors to what they can be when they're 16 or 17. That is crazy. I mean, that's the hardest part for me. People talk about projection.

That's the hardest part for me. I go to these games 12-year-olds play and I'm like, none of you are good. I can take you to some places where we can find some really good tools. So the toughest thing about the job seems like you're seeing players from all over the world, varying levels of competition and trying to isolate just how good they are in situations where nobody else on that field might have a big league future. So how do you distill that? I mean, scouting experience obviously is the foundation for that, but how do you come away with an evaluation you believe in

in those instances where there's no other future, even professional talent to compare players to? That's a great question. And what I try to do more is not analyze, is to evaluate. Look at how a body works. Look at how swing mechanics work. Look at how somebody goes through a game, how they, their type of instincts they show,

how the body works in terms of how you think it's gonna project long term. Is this the guy who we're gonna have to add weight on, or is this the guy who we're gonna have to trim down, right? There's all sorts of things that go into individually isolating a player from his environment that you have to do when you're projecting that far out. And what I've found is I don't necessarily go to the ballpark saying I'm looking for X big leaguer

Who's going to do X in 12 years? Right ice go to the ballpark and who's gonna be the guy who's the prospect at 17? Yeah, where are we gonna who's the guy we can have a good starting point or we can build on that foundation? And that's that's pretty much how you have to do the job considering the amount of years You're looking out into the future shorten Shorten the time frame a little bit. Yeah. How much of a science is there to it, too? I mean, it's obviously an art form.

But how much of a science is there, too? I was late night last night talking to somebody who was talking about, and he's in biomechanics. He's a pitching biomechanics person. He was saying, you know, I have a list of sort of biomechanical markers. And these are numbers and angles. You know, how much of that informs your work? I'm a firm believer that anything that can be observed can be quantified, right?

And so I think there are a lot of areas in scouting where we're observing these things, and maybe the quantitative analysis just hasn't caught up with what we're observing. So I think that those two things go hand in hand. All the information that we can use to make the best decision possible, we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't pay attention to it. The bigger question usually is assigning a level of relevance to what you think.

A certain metric is telling you what information is telling you. Relevance relative to other things. Of course. How important is that? How relevant is it? Is it more important or less important than these other things that we look at? Of course. It all comes down to what you value in players, how you project them out long term.

What I've found is the younger the guy, the more macro level you have to get with your evaluation right. Bodies and athleticists, how they move, how everything works together, how things function. That is the building block for being able to make any adjustments you can make in the future. It'd be really hard, for example, to evaluate how good a guy was laying off a slider alone away, if he's not seeing good sliders alone away.

Of course. But what you can can ask yourself an instance like that is okay well how well does he recognize something that doesn't spin like a fastball and maybe how well does he just even know where the zone is exactly so you know where we're scouting it is literally you know 50,000 feet and so if you try to if you can you can go down a rabbit hole of trying to Dissect what what it means for a 13 year old to do X against you know You know against that day or that week you saw him. Yeah, but the bottom line is you know You're really looking for raw talent. Yeah

You know the other part of that that sort of 19 year old whoold who looked like a 19-year-old, I saw some video and I was like, that ain't a 14, what is going on here? He was on this little league team where he was like a foot taller than everybody else. I mean, that does happen because what did O'Neill Cruz look like at 14? He probably was a foot taller than most of the people around him. But the other part of that is just that this is a the current state of the international market makes people Feel a little nervous and weird and there aren't there are bad things about it They're not great things about it. And yet it also represents as it is currently

You know real opportunity for life-changing money for some of these prospects and that you know putting a draft in place might actually tamp down some of that ability for them to make that kind of money. So there are positives and negatives to an international draft. And I just wonder if you have any sort of... I know that this is... it becomes a political question to answer, but I just don't know if there are any thoughts you could have. Yeah, I mean, of course, that decision is way above my pay grade, and it's my job to adjust to whatever system

that we have to work with. And so I think, like you said, there are some positives to the system that we have in place now, to where you can basically go out on a Wednesday, see a kid, and give him life-changing money that afternoon. But I also think there are advantages to a system that allows kids to develop. And we all work in one class at

a certain age and you know you take away some of the some of the negatives that come from the ability to Nefarious easily has easy access to money, right? Yeah You know, I think that there's you know, from our perspective we're working classes ahead So there's a good chance that if a draft comes that some of the guys that we really like are not going to be available to us by the time we pick in a hypothetical draft scenario. But you know for my money I think that it's most important for us to be able to adjust and operate effectively and ethically as we can in whatever system is out there.

Well one of the things we might be leading is out there. Well, one of the, I think we might be leading to the last question, but one of the things we've been asking people is when you look for, I'm sure you do some hiring, but also when you just look for people, like when you go from team to team or when you're looking for people you want to work with, what are some of the either skills or temperaments,

what are the sort of people you look to work with in baseball? And if you were talking to someone who's trying to get a job here today, what kind of things would you tell them to broadcast about themselves? How would you talk about that? I tend to look for high energy people who are curious, who don't take themselves too seriously and realize that you're gonna have to work

in a team setting in baseball. And people that are willing to learn and also give the knowledge they have. And I found from working with the Royals, the Dodgers, and now the Reds, that people that are willing to share and give of themselves and not necessarily expect you to give them all the influence

and power to run your department and make decisions on day one. Right? Right. That approach or job with a little bit of humility, it goes a long way. Right. And so the best advice I would give to somebody who's trying to get an opportunity is be flexible.

Like you never know. We were talking about earlier, there's tons of different paths to get to where you want to get to in baseball, wherever that is. And being flexible and being patient are two valuable characteristics that it could take you a long way. Yeah it's interesting sometimes I point out to people that like there are jobs that are in baseball that are not for a team you know like there are all these you know new labs

and you know there's a whole industry around it so you might find your way through that industry before you ever actually work for a team. I've got a macro question for you before we let you go. As an international cross-checker, someone who's seeing baseball all over the world, we were talking a few minutes ago, Travis Bazzotta goes 1-1 in the draft, a kid born in Australia,

a second baseman born in Australia goes 1-1 in the 2024 draft. Let's project out 15 years because Juan Soto designed a fifteen year deal. It's fun to think about what's going to happen the end of fifteen years. Where might we see an early first round pick? Not even necessarily a one one guy fifteen years from now that we're not even thinking about

that much right now. Is there a place you've been where you think baseball's growing fast enough where we may have future first round talent there that isn't showing up just yet. Yeah I would say the ABC Islands Aruba, Curacao, and the Bahamas is a hot emerging market. You have a lot of factors there with the athletes that are there, obviously the climate. They're having a lot more baseball players that have had success are coming back there and being able to give back their knowledge to the kids that are there, obviously the climate. They're having a lot more baseball players that have had success that are coming back there and being able to give back their knowledge

to the kids that live there. And then you have a really good education system there. A lot of those kids speak two or three languages, so they have a lot of the critical thinking skills that allows them to go and learn. And so I say that's one market I think you're gonna start to see more talent come from. You know, I was born in Jamaica, and and you know for me it was always like soccer is the is the

is the winner there and then a lot of those countries had a British influence so there's even soccer and cricket and they didn't really have you know baseball but I was you know talking about this with Jazz Chisholm and he was like, no, none of the kids played cricket. He said, you watch too much TV. He's like, we had it there in the street playing cricket. He's like, it's baseball or soccer right now. And so I think that speaks to what you're talking about a little bit. You know, in the sports marketplace, among the kids, there's much more of a, oh, this baseball is like a real thing.

I can do maybe. With so much information out there, the information you get to the athletes no matter where they are in the world, like you just said, who would think that the first pick in the draft would be a second baseman from Australia? But on top of it you kind of need to see it to be it, you know you heard that sort of expression, so jazz having success you know that's what you were also talking about with people coming back you know. Of course. Jazz having success makes it easier for there to be

that next one. Of course of course you can I mean players having success and walking those paths and then coming back and being able to carve out that path for somebody behind them I mean it's it's kind of how these things work. And then the coaching improves right? Because they went through the coaching in America and you know in the minors and stuff and can bring some insights that they learned along the way. Of course you know baseball incubators are created through people who make it and then give back you know and it's it's that's the fun part about my job is getting a chance to see like we talked

about before see these stories from the beginning. Yeah. You is getting a chance to see, like we talked about before, see these stories from the beginning. See a 12, 13, 14 year old kid from the beginning and maybe he makes it one day, maybe he doesn't. Friends for life, right? You see it from the Genesis. Friends for life when they make it, right? They love you. If we signed then they probably would like me a lot. It's a complicated relationship, normally. Yeah, right, That's true.

Well, Philip, thank you so much for the time today. We appreciate your insight. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Now it is our pleasure to be joined by the voice of MLB Network Radio, Mike Ferren. Mike, how many jobs do you have right now? I was going to say, first of all, that's probably laying it on a little thick. The voice. I prefer to be like the associate voice and give less pressure. No, host on MLB Network Radio, host on Sirius XM College, host of This Week in College Baseball with the great Mike Rooney.

ESPN College Baseball, fill in for some teams when they need a radio announcer like Have Mike, We'll travel. That's kind of my job. So yeah. Still based in Arizona? Still based in Arizona, yep, live in Felix. How do you get to that point? How do you get to the point where you have so many good jobs

in baseball like that? You know, it's funny because it feels like, I think to people from the outside, that it's something that happens overnight, right? Like it's all of a sudden this guy's got all these jobs and it takes a while. So my first gig was as a classic rock disc jockey in Dubuque.

I was doing Overnights. No. KGRR, classic hits, great rock and roll. No. Overnights. Yeah, it was awesome too. The story in the radio station is actually cooler than the job was.

In 1994, 1995, I guess it was right after Telecom 94, the FCC approved a whole bunch of new sticks, and the guy who'd been the morning man at WDBQ in Dubuque for nearly 40 years bought one of them and started his own radio station. So he started a classic rock station. This would have been 1990, I think it was 1994 is when he started it. He was the morning guy at the station. He was the general manager. He did all the promotions. He did all the marketing. His wife did the commercial traffic, which had been scheduling

the commercials. His son, who's still one of my best friends, was the program director. He was like 23 years old. Family business. Two years in in I got a job there and I'll tell you the guy's name is Paul Hemmer. He was on the year in Dubuque for 50 years. Biggest professional influence on my life. But that was my first gig. So that's how I started was working in small market radio and after that I went to Indiana for a while. Ruining your sleep habits. Yeah, no. It was the good news is the technology had advanced that for the most part it was voice tracked so I didn't as a college student have to be in all night

I was up all night doing other things Early on the radio So I went from there to a small town in Indiana for a while I didn't heed other people's advice to not get out of the car in Indiana So I stayed there for about seven months and then went and took an internship at WG and radio in Chicago. My hometown, turned that into a full-time job as a producer, was there for seven years,

and then I got passed over for a promotion, which happens to a lot of people, and I was like, well, it's probably a pretty good indication that I should hit the bricks. And fortunately, I think I'm the only person in radio history to apply for a job on the internet and get it. And that was at what was then XM radio and MLB Home Plate

and as an update anchor and hosting their pregame show on the Play-by-Play channels. And 17 years later, I'm still there. That's awesome. So if I heard right, you went from being on air to being behind the scenes. You were a producer for a while. And the reason was, as much as anything, was like I wanted to be at WGN like I guess so like

There are a lot of people in Chicago who in a prefer this job Yeah, definitely But this was like if you were if you grew up in Chicago at a certain age like WGN radio was out in your house All the time right and so to me that was the pinnacle right and like as a sportscaster radio was on in your house all the time. And so to me that was the pinnacle, right? And like as a sportscaster, like Jack Brickhouse was there and Irv Kupcined and like all these important Chicago figures.

That's great to me, man. Those are great names though. Totally. Well, Jack Brickhouse you should do. Hall of Fame broadcaster. OK. Hey, hey. Oh, OK.

Yeah, that's Jack Brickhouse. So that was like maybe I can work my way up through that. And I did some on-air stuff for them. I did some sports anchoring and a lot of reporting and that's when I first started kind of covering baseball more regularly. I covered the White Sox a lot, covered the Bears. And so that was my first opportunity in a major market was to do that versus going back after taking that internship. But it was a postgraduate internship and going back to another small town or going to the minor leagues.

And so that's where things kind of changed for me. Is college baseball something that you sort of edged your way into or is it a particular passion? Totally. It was, I want to say, 2011. And this was kind of in the nation stages of college baseball getting a little bit more coverage not like it is now and I still think there's room for growth but you know this is what nearly 15 years ago it wasn't quite the same and I asked

our college program director at serious I was like you have any interest in doing a college baseball show he's like yeah let's do it on Sunday afternoons. And so we started doing it. I did it for a number of years. When I took a job with the Diamondbacks, yeah, it was pretty good. We started to hear from coaches. Coaches were always, coaches, college coaches, are always super accessible because they

want to sell their program at any moment. Right, that's right. And so after about four or five years of doing it, I got the job with the Arizona Diamondbacks student pre and post, I mean they're a fill in play by play guy. And it just like not enough bandwidth, right? So I stopped it.

And when I decided to leave the Diamondbacks, one of the first things I did was call our college program director and be like, I'd love to do this show again. Do you think there's a possibility? And she said, yes, like we'd love to do it. And then from there, I built a relationship with a lot of the college baseball writers

and reporters and some of the folks at ESPN and that led to me being able to do games for them, mostly ACC stuff. What do you particularly like about college baseball versus pro baseball? Well one, I'm a baseball sicko as you know. Yeah. So like it's baseball.

You'll watch any kind of baseball anywhere. And like I think there's, so there's a practical application to it for somebody who hosts a show daily on Major League Baseball in that I am better versed on the players that are going to be available in the draft, right? So I've done stuff for Perfect Game for years too, and so like getting to know those high school and college players professionally has been very important for me, understanding who they are. The second part of it is that, just from a viewership standpoint,

or paying attention to that standpoint, there is way more variety in the way college baseball is played than there is major league baseball, right? There are a lot, like the Brewers play a little bit more like a lot of college teams, which makes sense, right? Cause Pat Murphy was a college coach for years and years, a Brewers manager. But there are, like the bunt can be an offensive weapon because defenders aren't as good in college.

There are more hit and runs, there's more stolen bases. And so like analytically, they may not necessarily be the best decisions, but it leads to a lot more variety and not everybody is looking to draw a walk and you know, back leg a three run homer to the the pull side and I think that's part of what makes it exciting to me is that you know there are there is room in that because there are 300 different programs that have a chance to compete that give you a lot of

different elements and so you get schools that run like crazy like Boston College and conventions me team that like runs like crazy because that's kind and the convention is gonna be a team that runs like crazy because that's kind of their coach's philosophy. There are other ones that play a little bit more pro game, right, that are just more like swing decisions like LSU and Texas now with Jim Schlossnagel there. Like those are, that to me is really fun. And then just like, you know,

the basic part of it of any know-it-all, right? I wanna know more than my buddies do, so I can tell them that they're wrong or we're drinking a beer. Your capacity for knowing names. I mean, there's you, the barbecue guys, like, you know, I just, I don't have space in my head for all those names.

Well, see, the thing is, I don't have kids. So, I get sleep. Got more time. And so that helps. That's great. But aren't also the rosters larger in terms of game day roster? So that means you can have more sort of one faceted player. Like you can do things with like an offense defense platoon.

They're not that much different. It's actually a 28 man travel roster. So it's not that much bigger. Oh, okay, okay. Like in the non-conference schedule before the season starts, you'll have full rosters that are closer to 40. Now, if you really want to get into college baseball, I can tell you that they're going to 34-man rosters next fall.

This is a big deal. They're going to have an increase in scholarships up to 34, which baseball's going to be an equivalent to this sport. You also have a ton more platoons, I feel like. Yes and no. I don't know that you have more platoons. First of all, no. I'll say no.

You do not have more platoons than you do in Major League Baseball because every team is trying to create plus average or better offensive production out of position. And the cheapest way to do that is by using role players and platooning them. So I would say no. There a far less platooning. In fact I think you're probably more set on seven or eight spots where you know those guys are gonna

be in the lineup and for the most part they're gonna be in there every day. So what are the extra roster spots go to? Relievers? Yeah. Pitching man like yeah four games a week right? Yeah usually Tuesday or Wednesday and then Friday Saturday Sunday Yeah, that's part right and so a lot of it goes to relievers and listen you have like it's different in that You're keeping players for three or four years right so you have some freshmen that may be rostered that as a reliever Just so almost ready yeah, but they're they're still on the roster Yeah, they have a senior that's been displaced, right? Like those kind of things.

So that's part of where, you know, the transfer portal has come in to give guys a chance, an opportunity to play right away by moving on to different schools, too. I was wondering, too, if there's a shift in Major League Baseball organizations to draft more college players coming out of 2024's College Heavy Draft, because it's maybe easier to model players coming out of college

with the data and tech that you have in place at a lot of the programs around the country. I think that is, but you know, Eno and I were just talking about this and I don't want to reveal too much of it because I'm still kind of working on it, but NIL and the Transfer Portal have kind of changed the complexion of college rosters and college rosters are older and so there may be fewer opportunities for freshmen to be able to play. So that might push more freshmen to the draft as a result. Interesting.

It also might push them to these places, basically, like Indie League and two of your spots where at Juco's, I would say, is a possibility. They can play. Well, and I think there's another thing that you can do is the most highly touted guys, right, are either gonna be first rounders or go to big programs or whatnot.

But if you're in that next tier, if you go to a place like, I'll use this because they get raided every year in the portal, but you go to play at Samford, and as a freshman you get an opportunity and you're really good. Well, you enter the transfer portal and all of a sudden you're probably getting a little money in NIL and you've got a chance maybe go to an ACC and

SEC or a big developed school. Yeah I mean that's what happened when we saw the winnowing down of the of the minor leagues is that there are these other opportunities that sprung up and so you know Indie ball is a little bit more healthy than it's been in a while. Yeah, and well, that's something that's been trending that way anyway for the last 30 years. I mean when there's more and more players and there's yeah still only 30, you know major league. That's right Yeah, there's only 120 affiliates right full season. Yeah, so yeah, it's so there's I mean there's opportunities to play other places But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the changes potentially I'm still trying to do a little bit of research on this to figure out how teams think it's gonna impact

The draft but their college baseball is older and in his state older even getting through the COVID kids Right the guys that got an extra year of eligibility And we're through that now, but it's still the like if you look at the best teams rosters it's sophomores, juniors, seniors. Yeah, yeah. Well one of the things we've been asking people you know while we've been here is you know this is a job fair and there's a lot of people here trying to get jobs and... Are you hiring?

Oh that's right. And you know what I'm what we've been asking people is, what do you look for when you're hiring? I think for you, that's an interesting question. What do you look for in a broadcast partner? What do you look for in a producer? What do you look for in a situation when you're... What do you look for in coworkers? What do you look for?

Yeah, so I don't hire. I did used to hire interns, but I would say that there are a couple of different things. I think it's interesting you mention producers. I want to get to that in a second. The things that I like the best in a broadcast partner, number one thing is preparation. So need to be prepared. You need to know what you're talking about. You need to put some effort level in, in making sure you know what's happening beyond just

what your experience is as an analyst from either a player or a coach or an executive. So that's the number one thing for me. And I'm somebody that I feel like shares the stage pretty easily. And so I'm always going to try and put you in the best spot for success. So I think that's a big part of it is that I need to trust that if I set you up that you're going to go to a spot that's credible. So now I'm probably wired a little different than some other people, but that's super important

to me. And then the other thing is being engaged and being energetic. And in games, like doing games, one of the things that I think is most important for analysts for games is to be present like a media member in the clubhouse or on the field and talking to people because... Not everyone does that. Not everyone does that. I know you've seen that. I think, and here's why.

I never played the game at a high level. I was a right, right B-team first baseman in high school. I sucked. I was terrible. Yeah, I was a bad baseball player. I was a very good defender team first baseman of high school. I was terrible. Yeah, I was a bad baseball player. I was a very good defender at first, but like that's not very useful. Congratulations, right? That's not what they would call a carrying tool.

That's great, man. Yeah, exactly, right? Right, right, big dude. I have three drag buns, you know? Yeah. I had a good idea of the strike zone. I just couldn't hit any strikes. So I think, so because so many of these guys played or coached or were executives they have a much different experience than I had no matter I've just been my entire life trying to learn about baseball because I'm obsessed with it but I will never be able to have the same experience as they did. So the

questions specifically with players that they have for other players are ones that I could never ask and in some cases never know. You know what I mean? Because they have that experience. So taking advantage of access is huge. This is why it really ticks me off that the Blue Jays and the Angels still don't trade over to their radio announcers is because the best place to get the information is on the road because there's more time.

And you are being disrespectful to your audience because you're not giving them the opportunity to gather. Is there any aspect of like, if you're going to analyze and perhaps be critical, you know, to sort of represent yourself? Absolutely. I mean, that's why I show up at the ballpark now as a talk show host.

Is if I sit, well, listen, I'm not a, other than to you, I'm not a jerk. I'm not a jerk. No, I try not to be. We'll have our moments. But you have to provide analysis. Almost any host is gonna have to provide some analysis. And what I've found is that I try to be

as balanced as possible. I can be critical. I can try and see things from, I try to look at something from somebody else's lens. I learned that at a young age. I think it's really important. And so I don't get called on it very much. But if I am critical of something and somebody has the wrong, feels strongly that I'm in

the wrong, I need to be present to be confronted. Because I have to own it, right? Like you can't go running high. So I do think that's part of it. As far as a producer, I think this is a really interesting conversation because I think everybody's a little bit different in that and I would tell you that my, what I want in a producer has changed because of my experience at ESPN. There is a different level of collaboration with the really experienced producers there and how to

build a broadcast that I relish. And there's like a level of professionalism that I like. So I like organized. We have a producer who's been doing our radio show, the one I do with Jim Duquette for, you know, we've been doing that show 13 years. He's been the producer every day of it. So he kind of knows where we're at, right? He builds a rundown. We're going to talk about these topics in these segments. Here are some sample questions for interviews, you interviews, things to help guide us through. I'll be honest, I don't use a lot of his stuff in there, not because I don't think it's valuable,

but because if I see the topic, I've been doing this long enough and I prep a lot. A lot of those questions pop in your head. Or I want to take it in a different direction because I just feel like that's something that's better for the broader audience or for a very specific topic. But I like the collaboration, I like organization, and I like people who pay attention. That's a big part of it is just being engaged in what's going on. What would you recommend for people who want to begin in media right now? You started as a DJ at a classic rock station.

Any path is possible, but where would you try to begin if you were 22 today and trying to get your first media job? So I do think the environment is much different than it was 25 years ago when I broke into it. Or more than 20, it's almost 30 years ago now. But I think it's a lot different. I think there are a lot more opportunities for people when they are younger at a higher level,

because young people can be really, really talented, and they're going to be a lot cheaper than us old boys. Right? So I think that that's part of it. I think the best place to start is wherever you are, right? So there are a number of different paths that I think to get experience. If you're a college student, take advantage of college radio and TV, right? So like I've got a nephew as a freshman at Michigan. He's kind of interested in doing some sports stuff

and so he's decided he's gonna do a little play-by-play for soccer and for volleyball and hockey and basketball. And some that aren't, other than basketball, aren't like his favorite sports, but he wants to experience it, right? So wherever you are, get the experience you can, even if it's not exactly what you want, try and gain it. And then I think, I do think there's value in going small and working your way up, because the thing about being in a small market or in the minor leagues is if you screw up nobody is going to care and you are going to screw up. I'll tell you what like I've learned a lot more from the screw-ups I've made than the things that I've done right you know what I mean

and I think it's an important lesson and I think that's important to be able to have that in a lower pressure environment it's like the minor leagues for baseball players right you're working on your skills so the other part of it is making connections right so this is still very much a people business hundred percent so whether it's and this is all the way through in baseball right like it's as much as we can talk about the data and everything like it's all about people and that's one of the reasons why I love covering it is baseball people love talking about baseball. But meet broadcasters if you're interested in broadcasting.

Really get connected with the people who do the hiring. That is super important. Find ways to get feedback from those people. You wanna be top of mind when something opens so they can go, you know what, we got this gig. Yeah, I kinda like they've improved a lot. Joe Schmo, like he's a good fit or Gene Schmo, she's a really good fit. You know, like whoever it is, I think those are all things that can help.

But you know, try and start small. It doesn't have to be in a small market, but start with small responsibilities. Take advantage of every opportunity you get. Don't say no, keep working, keep working, and try to improve. Two questions real quick, just off of your own, you know, you were behind the mic and on front of the mic. You know, if you were just really dead set

on wanting to be in front of the mic, is it a bad idea to take a job behind the mic, you know? You know? No, because I don't think there's one path to any of it. You yourself did both things. Yeah, I think you can get experience doing it because you might be able to, like you may not be doing a sports reporter. So like in this example, when before I was doing some reporting while I was also a producer, I would practice doing raps also a producer, I would practice doing raps, right? And I would demo them, I would take my boss and he would listen

to him and he'd tell me what needed to improve. I mean you're in the station, you're around the stuff, you know, maybe someone they need someone that's got sick and right and now you're in, now you're in, right? So I think that's a that that is possible and listen like the other thing is with the internet like all things are possible, right? So even if you've got nobody listening to your podcast or YouTube channel, yeah, you can just go ahead and record it and try it out. And like, again, something that you can,

especially I think if you're doing a talk show, that could give you an idea of how to create a demo. The other thing was, and I wasn't really aware of this until recently, but there are really, of course, there are really strong college programs that maybe even dominate some of the airways is it Syracuse and Syracuse and ASU probably the biggest ones right now and I would have thought of ASU because of the Cronkite school but Syracuse is the that's kind of Syracuse is like the like the play-by-play capital is that is that

like just something if you know this at a really young age, is that like, would you just take Syracuse over all else? What I would say is, or is there more competition there? Yeah, I mean, I think everything's gonna be a custom fit, right? But the advantage to being in places like Syracuse and ASU is not that dissimilar

from what we see in front offices, right? Like Harvard graduates hire Harvard graduates, right? Yale graduates hire Yale graduates. You're paying a lot of money to go to Syracuse, but you're paying for that networking, which can help to take away some of the early pains of having jobs. Now the difference is-

They've also got to be pretty good at teaching the craft itself. They are very good at it. I would argue that at times that you get a lot of homogeny in the sound from some people, because they're all in the same classes, I would argue that at times that you get a lot of homogeny in the sound from some people because they're all in the same classes, but they're also good professionals unlike Trent Rosecrans.

And so I think that there are huge benefits to it, huge benefits to it. Cost is one of the big drawbacks. There are tougher, like there's not a whole lot of Loris College alums, go do-hawks, that are in broadcasting, and so the path might be a little bit more difficult. Is that Chicago area?

Dubuque, Iowa. Oh, nice. Yeah, I love you with my heart and I love you with my liver, a Dubuque, Dubuque, Dubuque. Okay, had to be Dubuque, had to be Dubuque, of course. So, I think there are opportunities a lot of times at those smaller schools to get opportunities faster. Like if you're a freshman at Syracuse,

you ain't doing a football game. But if you're a freshman at Central College in Pella, Iowa, there's probably a good chance you're gonna get to work as a freshman. And the other part that's there is that, like again, my first gig was in Tobuque, Iowa. And there's small radio stations that you can start working at that might give you those opportunities too. So I think it's just it has to be what your preference is. If you're mostly concerned about that networking then places like

Syracuse and ASU and Mizzou and like those are really good spots to go. They and especially in the case of Syracuse it is really expensive but it doesn't mean that it has to be your only path. I mean I can look up and down like Roan College has a bunch of broadcasters that have come out of it you know I just was at a wedding with a friend Melanie Newman from the Orioles she went to Troy you know in Alabama know. So like there's a number of different spots that you can go to and be successful in the industry. You just have to work a little harder to make the connections. They're not going to be presented to you, maybe in the same manner that they are at a school with more alumni that are working in the industry.

Yeah. Mike, I know you got a lot on your plate while you're here. We appreciate the time you gave us. Always great catching up with you and happy holidays. It is great to see you guys. Happy holidays. It just flew by. It's fun talking to you. It's fun talking to you.

Yeah. I miss you. It's been forever and a day, man. It's great to see you. So thank you so much for asking me to do this. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Mike. Well, it's been a busy day two here in Dallas.

We have a concert that we're headed to and more barbecue, which could, as we said yesterday, spur even more activity. Can you have enough barbecue? Never. Yeah, okay, I didn't think so. So Tim McMaster was here with us. We went over to Terry Black's for dinner on Monday night

and he asked me, he said, how much meat do you get at a barbecue place? I looked at him and said, I'm the wrong person to ask, man. I'm not, I am not normal when I, I'm the wrong person to ask, man. I am not normal when I get barbecued. You brought brisket to Thanksgiving. I brought brisket to Thanksgiving. If I get to a place where we have red paper

and there are six or seven meats available and it's just order in bulk, I'm filling the tray. I know where to take you for your birthday, man. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Thanks to our guests today, Keith Law, Philip Stringer, and Mike Farron. A lot of great conversations here. Hoping for another busy day in Dallas on day three. That's gonna do it for this episode of Rates and Barrels. We're back with you on Wednesday. Thanks for listening.