Rates & Barrels - New Pitches & A Case for Longer Starts

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Eno, Trevor, and DVR discuss a few spring news items before looking at the early response to ABS in spring training games and several new pitches that are popping this spring. Plus, they examine 'The Case for Leaving Your Starter In' from Lewie Pollis, and the value added by veteran pitchers beyond the potential to chew up innings. Rundown 1:00 News & Notes: Kyle Finnegan Returns to Nats; Ohtani to Make Spring Debut Friday 10:49 Early Thoughts on ABS in Spring Training Games 22:48 New Pitches That Are Popping This Spring 41:46 Quantifying The Value of Pitching Deep Into Starts 'The Case for Leaving Your Starter In' - Lewie Pollis: https://www.thelewsletter.lewispoll.is/p/the-case-for-leaving-the-starter 50:52 Veteran Presence or Veteran Presents? Follow Eno on Bluesky: @enosarris.bsky.social Follow DVR on Bluesky: @dvr.bsky.social Follow Trevor on Bluesky: @[e-mail] e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Subscribe to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Hosts: Derek VanRiper & Eno Sarris With: Trevor May Producer: Brian Smith Executive Producer: Derek VanRiper Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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If you're into games and sports, pay attention. I'm going to give you four sports terms. You tell me the common thread. Ready? Game. Match. Point. Set.

This one's kind of a gimme. Game. Match. Point. Set. This one's kind of a gimme. The answer is, how tennis is scored. Do you want more of a challenge? Check out Connections Sports Edition. It's a new daily game for sports fans. To play now, go to theathletic.com

slash connections. Blast Connections. this episode we're going to take a look at some new pitches that have been introduced this spring. We've got some interesting research that's been done on the value of veteran or starting pitchers going deeper into games. We'll talk about that impact that has on several teams that have been maybe leaning more heavily on their starters. We always have the veteran presence versus veteran presence question that's going to be talked about a little bit today as well. and of course if you've been watching games you've noticed that ABS is in play this spring so we'll talk about some of the early feedback on the ABS system getting some usage at the major league level here this spring.

Some news and notes as we get started today gentlemen Kyle Finnegan is back with the Nationals right on time we had our NL East preview a couple of days ago, talked about the other options in the bullpen that might emerge to get saves and within hours Kyle Finnegan reunited with the Nationals for a slightly discounted price compared to what he would have made if they hadn't non-tendered him a few months back. So fun on the business side but as far as the Nats bullpen goes, do you just pencil him in as their closer again, you know, as Kyle Finnegan, 25 saves

going right down on your spreadsheet? Yeah, I think there's no really, no real reason to, you know, make somebody like Jose Ferrer more expensive in arbitration, you know, from a cynical standpoint and from a team building standpoint, you know, I think there's some value in like, oh, that guy was the closer last year. Like you already screwed with him.

Like the teams, the rest of the players are gonna notice that to some extent. Like, oh, you just cut your closer and sign it back again. But yeah, I think there's a like, Trevor can maybe speak to this more, but there's a pecking order in the bullpen. And like, you know, he's the guy, you know, until he loses it.

Yeah, I agree. I think that he never lost the closing role. Like it't a performance thing at least in terms of blown safes He got the job done quite a bit I know a lot of peripheral stats don't look amazing, but it'll be just his job to lose I'm sure but it won't feel as you know going in maybe last spring training. He was like, I'm the closer and this year He's probably like I'm the closer but like they're not feeling right super and this year he's probably like, I'm the closer, but like, I'm not feeling super confident in my role in this, because they were willing to just be like,

all right, go on, and then they're like, oh, you're cheaper, bring it back. So not a great feeling, but I know that overall, he's probably just like, I'm happy to have a job, and at least I know this place is familiar, and I know that that role is open for me, and I can go take it, so maybe next year, if it happens again, something else happens Something else like I have a better opportunity.

Weird situation, but yeah, I think we have a little more clarity now on the pecking order in that Nats Bullpen with Finnegan going back there. I did see a note that Shohei Otani is closing in on his spring debut, which really bodes just well for everyone who enjoys watching him. But I think there are some people out there

who are worried that the shoulder injury he suffered in the postseason last year is going to be more of a problem than everyone has let on up to this point, but this looks like everything's going just fine. Like if anything was still bothering Shohei Otani, Trevor, he wouldn't be playing in games at the end of February and beginning of March.

Yeah, it's the Dodgers too. They are very, very like, cognizant of this stuff. They don't push things. Guys take their time, get healthy, get right. When they come back, they want them to be back and back for good. So that's a good side. I think they're one of the most,

one of the more cautious teams in terms of that stuff, especially with a guy that are giving $700 million. So if everyone feels good, top to bottom in that organization about his ability to play and where he is on his timeline and where he could be in a month. I mean, if there's any group of people that I would trust the most for these things, it's them. And then he's also Shohei Atani. So like, I just refuse to be surprised by anything he does. For him not to be bothered or something like it never happened wouldn't surprise me. Obviously that's diminishing returns over time, you can only do that so many times, but, guys are freak, so, if you said, oh yeah, he's back from his shoulder in two weeks,

that wouldn't surprise me. It's just one of those things, he's, he's, of course he's back. Yeah, he's scheduled to play Friday, as the DH in their spring game against the Angels, and I think by all accounts, he's supposed to DH and be ready to go for that season opening series against the Cubs in Tokyo.

The one thing I would point out, yeah, is that that series in Tokyo does weird things to your camp. So I'm not suggesting that they're pushing Otani because they're opening days earlier, but I think you will see their starting pitchers are going to have, you know, earlier ramp ups and I would guarantee that the press people in Cubs and Dodgers camps are totally stressed out because what you do in spring is you take these pictures for whatever, you know, like Sony's in town for, you know, the MLB, the show, you know, pictures, and they actually do like full head scans now, I think, where they like kind of

scan your whole body to put you in the game. And like there's all these extra things that happen in spring that you have to get out of the way. And if you have a full spring, you're just like, oh, yeah, OK, on Tuesday, I'm doing this. Thursday, I got to go, you know, kiss some babies, that sort of stuff. It's like all this like, you know, it's almost like a politician in town. Like you have these little events you have to do. The spring is full of all these things. But if you are, have to be in Japan playing before everybody else is ready, you have to

squish all that into, you know, less time. I just know that Padres camp last year, everybody was, was really stressed out. So I'm not suggesting that's going to be relevant for Otani, but I think you will see the starting pitchers that are going to pitch in that series are going to have their second like the three inning start earlier than other people. They're going to, you know, they're going to have to be on a slightly different timeline. Yeah. I did also see a note that Roki Sasaki had a three inning simulated game against the

White Sox on Tuesday. That's sort of what I'm talking about right there like that thought that's a lot of innings for somebody You're like why is he doing three innings already? You know 38 pitches only four swings and misses according to Bill Plunkett who was on hand to see that or got a report At least about it So Roky is supposed to start the second game of that two-game series against the Cubs I imagine this is an easier adjustment year two of starting early for the Dodgers than it is for the Cubs who are not experienced in doing this right like the Dodgers have their template in

place. Trevor of all the stuff the kissing babies getting your body scan for MLB the show you know what's of that stuff what was actually fun like the extra stuff you had to do during spring was there anything you really enjoyed or thought hey this is actually kind of a unique or cool thing that I get to be a part of that, you know, you didn't even think about when you were coming up? The face scan stuff was pretty cool. That rig too, it's like, you know, 50 cameras or whatever

that are all on a big globe around you. So it just slowly like turns you and takes all your photos. I thought that was cool. And it's something you don't normally do, but yeah, there's not a lot that's super fun. Also, real quick, I want to touch a point you just made about Roki Sasaki. I want to give some context for that,

because I've had this said about me before. When you throw a sim game, the chances that guys are just standing there tracking pitches are high. So like, getting four swings and misses, there might have been like eight total swings. But then again, he's throwing it against another team, a young team that probably swung a lot,

which also, if guys are swinging to every single pitch, they're just fouling stuff off constantly, you know, they wouldn't even swing out before. So take that with a grain of salt. Anyway, back to the other question. Yeah, it was like interesting, cool stuff like that. My last year with the twins, they had a, they kind of rolled out a new marketing idea. So they brought in a new company that like did, they did like music videos and commercials for a living. So they had all these really, they had a bunch of really cool like,

different types of like intro stuff to do. Like they put you on a spinning thing and they let you wear whatever you wanted and like you didn't have to like be in uniform and so you could get, and then they would send you all the stuff too. So like ask someone who did lots of social media stuff, I was like, this is great.

Like, this is, I would never do this. And it was interesting. Guys were like milling around, like watching other guys go. That's what I'm talking about. It's you're recording like intros, like all those like intros when you're watching it will be networked. Yeah, like the spin around and you look at the camera

and you're fake throwing and all that kind of stuff. That's the normal stuff. But when there's an interesting. And Tops has to come to town too, right? Like Tops has taken pictures too. Usually media day, like Tops has someone there or they have like a freelancer there that takes the photos for Tops and then so.

So like they kinda spread everybody out. Media days, especially for like the Mets had tons of it. So it was just a huge tent. They had to put like a portable out there because there were so many people. It's like 50 stations. That gets, even for me, I was just a huge tent. They had to put like a portable out there because there were so many people. It's like 50 stations. That gets, even for me, I was just like, okay. We've, I take the same photo 15 times.

I think, why don't you just share with each other. Yeah. But I mean, other than that, like, parties that like, they would do like parties at breweries for team parties and stuff. Lots of guys love that. Go play cornhole. I was like, nah, I just wanna not.

I just wanna be home sleeping. Yeah, this is, I don't, I'm gonna see a lot of you guys. Yeah, we're gonna hang out a not. I just wanna be home sleeping. Yeah, I'm gonna see a lot of you guys. Yeah, we're gonna hang out a lot. I think we're good. So, but yeah, a lot of guys golf, and there's tons of that stuff. It wasn't my cup, but a lot of guys like that stuff.

Yeah, tons of golf. Tons of golf. Every event's a golf event. Every event. If you're a veteran, you can get that three or four p.m. tee time because you leave in that like three or four p.m. P. Tee time because you you can like you leave in the In the fifth inning or you leave in when the game starts a lot of guys Yeah, I just leave it when the game starts no big deal

I did see a quick follow-up on Bryce Harper He got hit by a pitch took the bus trip to Dunedin which I think was gonna be maybe his only Road trip of the spring anyway gets hit by a pitch leaves early But he's fine. It's like a bruise on his triceps. So just saw that first This is why I never take the bus in spring. This is why I will never go to Dunedin again Any reasons a good enough reason to avoid the bus trips in Florida? They seem pretty miserable by by all accounts the drivers in Florida are insane I mean very at least at least don't to drive yourself

You're probably in the bigger vehicle. Let's put that right Probably probably Want to get you guys as a thoughts on some of the early responses to the automated balls and strike system alright We got ABS this spring I did see a Jason Stark piece about it where a lot of teams are telling pitchers not to challenge which I think is Kind of funny. How do you feel about that? Trevor? Like don't you want your catcher to challenge for you or do you want to just make that call yourself?

It's funny when I made my, I made a rehab appearance for against Salt Lake in 2023 and I told the catcher, Hey, you do it. I don't know what the strike zone is because it's been adjusted and recalibrated and it is a little bit different. A lot of guys are like, actually, I'll give you the power to do it through spring and try to like figure out what I'm seeing and if that translates

into a real strike or not. Because even if you were pretty well calibrated in, you tend to have yourself the better of the doubt anyways. So if it's changing and you're missing high strikes or whatever, usually I'm like the catcher knows a little bit better than me because I'll be honest, I've gotten situations a lot in the past. A guy who did it to me constantly,

I called it getting neatoed, Tomas Nito, behind the plate, like he would make me get really mad about a call, and it was like four inches off the plate. But he's such a good receiver that he got me too. And so... You're seeing the glove move. Yeah, or I'm like falling off to the side and he's pulling it back so well

that like it looks like I have the angle and I don't. And then I go watch again, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed for like falling off to the side and he's pulling it back so well that like it looks like I have the angle And I don't then I go watch again. I'm like, oh my god I'm so embarrassed for getting mad at CB for that. He wasn't wrong this time So it's like I think there's a lot of veteran guys who are like, you know what? Let me figure this out and a good way to do it I still want to use it But I want to take your lead especially if it's a younger catcher who's dealt with it before so I think the younger guys Are more comfortable doing the catcher closer to the strikesman? They usually know better, yeah.

They usually know, usually going back, was that there and they'll tell you straight up if it was or not. They don't have any ego in it either. Yeah, it's not ego. Like, you wasn't there. I hit that spot. If you're mad and they are mad,

then you're really confident that you were right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe you have to just, it's a two-step thing. If you're both like, yeah, let's go, let's challenge to just said it's a two two-step thing if you're both like yeah, let's go Let's challenge, and I think that's what it is. You ask should we and then it's the pictures are like boom right away that you should be watching because That's happened a couple times. Some young guys just did it like the ball was in the air immediately And then there's Mac Scherzer of of course. Yeah, who just, yeah.

Not at all surprised Max Scherzer wants to call his own challenges. Yeah, oh, he just knows. I was watching the Guardians play the Brewers and Carlos Santana, who had the first challenge in Guardians, in Major League Guardians history, and won it. I think it was like the first pitch that he saw

was like, challenge. And, you know, he's got a really good sense of the plate. He knows what he's talking about most of the time, but what was interesting was the first one he got right, the second one he got wrong, the one I saw he got wrong. And he was like, okay. And he stood back in and he's kind of like this professional.

So he's not kind of smiling and joking a lot. Like he was just like, no, I'm right. Oh, I'm not. Okay. And then he stood back in. There was not a lot of like sort of emotion around it. It was just like here, I think I'm, oh, okay. But the second one I think was Lane Thomas and it might've been like the next at bat. So, and then Lane Thomas is a little bit more, has a little bit more sort of affect.

And so he was, he was laughing about it as he was doing it. And there was, I think I think maybe laughing about like, oh, we're just gonna challenge every, until we have no challenges left sort of idea. Like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go for it. And he was joking with the umpire and the umpire and him had an interaction, but they were smiling.

And I don't think it was like Cheshire cat smiling. I think they were kind of laughing. It was like Blaine said something like, oh, I'm gonna push my luck, here we go, you know? And umpire probably said something like, well, you're wrong last time, so let's see what they say, you know? And Lane Thomas was correct. And there wasn't a lot of like, I don't know.

And they showed a little bit about the dugout, the dugout kind of being like, you know, like kind of like, what's about to happen? Strike! Oh no! You know, so like, I thought it could be spring and they're just joking around nothing matters but it looked like No one was like that It actually almost could take the temperature down a second between the hitters and the umpires, right? Like it's like now if you have an argument you can be like, well challenge it. Yeah, you've recourse

I think that's goes a long way for throwing some water on the flames. Yeah, could we have some fewer arguments? Like, challenge it or don't. Like, let's not just be b---- at each other all the time. Like, challenge it or don't. That's the sort of vibe I got. And that could be a positive. I don't know.

We want more smiles. So tempers flaring less often, managers being rejected less frequently, maybe, that could be good. But okay, the implementation of this in games that count, how close are we to actually having that? Because I think from the perspective of people who've seen games in the minor leagues where it's been implemented for coaches, players, people who've been involved, I think generally it's pretty well received,

but the problem seems to be more about how you define the strike zone, right? Is that going to be the last piece in making this happen and become a reality? Because I think the mechanics of it, it's quick. I think you're right to talk about the way it could diffuse some of the tension. That's probably a good thing over the course of a long season especially. But Trevor, is the problem kind of something you alluded to tension, that's probably a good thing over the course of a long season especially. But Trevor, is the problem kind of something you alluded to earlier, that the zone is just not the same as the zone everyone's used to? Is that the big sticking point on this?

Yeah, but just like the pitch clock was something that a bunch of guys who'd played for a long time weren't used to. And so, I mean, getting used to it, I think, is entirely possible. I think that it just can't, there has to be a standard set in place where it can be learned and then it can't be changed Constantly and that's one scary thing because they're right now there really isn't guidelines and you can't find them You have to ask people and it's in test mode

So it's kind of like the fluidity of that stuff is kind of built in. And that's why I think people are hesitant to really get committed to the version of it now because if, for example, the zone shrinks or gets wider or changes what guys have to like, how they contextually from their angle see the pitches and then have to make decisions, doing that too much or having it change periodically could completely unravel.

Guys, having a challenge system doesn't matter if no one knows what to challenge because they don't know where the edges are. That is one thing. I think that's why it's been so slow to be rolled out, honestly, is because it is different from place to place and it's done through Hawkeye in a lot of ways. The ways they get that information, the way they calibrate it is different. Position of the sensors is different in every park. They're figuring out how to make this a standard as humanly possible

So it's hyper consistent or as consistent as it can be which that trust we were just talking about where it kind of defuses Situations it kind of goes away when when now everyone's mad at the same thing at least you're mad together I guess what's the damn zone? Tell us what it is You see the the expected home runs by Park. If you had that counter going across the bottom, you're like, oh, that would have been actual, that would have been a strike here, but it would have been a ball there. That would have been, that'd be bad.

That would cause a lot of problems and frustration. There are so many engineers that work on Statcasts, and I actually think the engineering parts, I think they can figure this out. They're kind of unsung heroes. And I think that has been part of why the rollout's been lower. But there's been something else going on, which is that there was a huge exploration explosion in strikeouts and walks when they implemented ABS and AAA. And that had to do with the actual way the strike zone was implemented.

So what Trevor is talking about in terms of the definition of what the zone was. And then at some point they tried to change it because they were like, Oh, let's make it more like sideways and less high. And like, let's like, like take, because there's all these high swinging strikes. Let's pull that down and we want fewer strikeouts. And, and I'm not sure how much of that was transmitted to umpires players, like fans, Like, like, I don't know, maybe the minor leagues, you don't have to, because it's, it's not about winning. It's not as about fans in the same way, but in the major leagues, I think transparency would have to be

part of this where it's like, there has to be like a definition of the strike zone, maybe in sort of mathematical terms, like very sort of specific mathematical terms with like, we don't even know. We were talking about this earlier. If a ball hits, you know, the corner, like what does the corner look like? Is the corner like a corner like this? And any part of the ball? Yeah. If any part of the ball touches any part of that corner, is it a strike or is it more of a rounded corner? You know, because those are implications. So like, I think a lot of this has to be really transparent. And if they change it, I think they have to tell us the changes as fans, as writers, as umpires, even if it's an ABS thing. And some of that makes me uncomfortable. It is giving more power to Manfred and Co.

Where if they don't do it transparently, we're gonna spend every spring doing the same thing we used to do with the ball. Where it's like, what strike zone is it this year? What ball is it this year? Even with ABS, there'll be this sense of like, we don't know what it is. And so he would have to tell, I think teams would have to know what it is. And so he would have to tell,

I think teams would have to know what the strike zone is and players would have to know what the strike zone is. And if they are doing all that, they have to be super transparent about it and probably just announce this is the strike zone that is going to be in the challenge system. Last part is they're struggling with what to show on TV because A, the TV box is not necessarily the same as the savant box, as like the one that's gonna be the challenge system. So if there's a box on TV and then they challenge it and the ball is like a strike by savant,

but a ball by the TV box, that'll make people angry. And so they also don't want cheating. They don't want people watching the game on TV with the box and then telling them, challenge, you know, challenge, we got the box. So the box on TV might go away. That's something that I think Jason Stark was reporting. And I'm okay with that because I think the box on TV is a false, is not necessarily, since it's not the box that they're being judged on, it's a false sense of security.

Like, oh, that was a strike or that was a ball. You actually don't know. It's just a, it's the broadcast company making a strike zone for you, you know? And so they're talking about like, maybe they'll do strike zone probabilities, like a sort of a soft strike zone map that's not like, has edges. It's more like a like these are where strikes are usually or maybe just the corners. So they're talking, they're still figuring out how to show it on TV. And I think they also need to figure out transparency so that we don't feel that Rob Manfred can just twiddle the knobs every offseason and screw some part of the population, the high strike people or the low strike people or whatever it is.

I think it would just be shrinking the zone to increase offense based on past things the league has done to manipulate screw pitchers. Yeah, of course. That's the gift. Seem to be the most likely. Yeah. It's an automatic. Yeah.

Pitching these be harder. Very clearly. Yeah. Pitching these be harder. Very clearly. Yeah, pitching in the big leagues, not hard enough. Come on. It's the season to shop new styles, electronics, and definitely a holiday trip. And what if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can earn cash back

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That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. The other thing we're watching really closely this spring are the new pitches that we're seeing. We talked last week about some hopeful developments, things we'd like to see pitchers add, but now we've gone through about a week's worth of spring games. Just about everybody's had a chance to pitch in a game. You might not see it on video, but there are new pitches being rolled out. And I want to ask you guys what new pitches have been popping for you in the early

days of the Cactus League and Grapefruit League schedules. How about you, Trevor? What pitch is just kind of like opening your eyes as one that could be a really impactful offering this year? Everyone keeps asking me on all the other things that I, the places I am like, what's going to be the new, you know, hot pitch that everyone's trying to design this year because we've had a new one every year for like the last three or, you know, sinkers that everyone's trying to design this year because we've had a new one every year

for like the last three or, you know, sinkers coming back or whatever. And we're kind of running out of pitches. Like we're gonna have to go back around the circle at some point, but there is a new one and it is another version of a splitter slash an off speed pitch to change up the kick change. Which is one thing that's super interesting to me

and will be all year is how many guys are implementing the kick change because they weren't able to do a seam-shifted change and they weren't able to do a straight change and they haven't learned a splitter because of other complications. So when I was coming through the professional baseball ranks and just in general, like guys trying to learn changeups

was like everybody, like anyone who didn't come into pro ball with one, like learning one in pro ball, it was rare that anyone found a good one later. It has something to do with comfortability and grips and throwing hard and hard throwing guys struggle to get a Velo changes and all this kind of stuff. And now we're seeing more options for change-ups. So my exciting one is Clay Holmes' kick change

because one, he's going from relieving to starting, which a bunch of guys have seen success these days, and the thing's gross. Like, it's good. It's real good. He's already got a crazy sinker. Right through the clip is righty on righty. Oh yeah, right on right.

Look at the swing. Look at this swing again. Zach Short, no chance here. And the velocity's 90. He's like, no, no chance here, oof. And the velocity's 90. He's like no, no, no, no, no. And it's one of those things, now these off-speed pitches, that they're movement-based. I asked Jason Adam in an interview once,

because he threw a 94, 95, and then he threw in a 90, 91 mile on a change-up. And I'm like, you use that as a movement pitch. It's almost like a sinker. He's like, yeah, the Velo makes it funky because it's not way slower, but it's also not close enough either to be the same swing path.

So like guys have to make decisions and he uses it constantly, like kind of a sinker and he uses it for movement. The kick change is for that. Look at this. How can you throw this 80 plus miles an hour? What the? How?

I do not know. Wait. How can you throw this 80 plus miles an hour? What the? How? I do not know. Wait. This is, we're looking at Birdsongs, right? I'll throw this in the Discord later, but it's like, we're looking at Birdsong Kick Change. What you're doing is, it's like a knuckle curve, I guess. Yeah, you're spiking a different figure.

Is there a flick there? Yeah, it's a flick. Are you flicking that thing? So you're kicking it, it's called a kick change because you're basically, the problem with pitches like this is, and even like breaking balls, is there's always a, there's sometimes, the spike curveball for example,

the spike is to get your finger out of the way because then when it's on the ball. Yeah, that one almost makes sense to me. Like you're not doing anything with that finger. You're trying to get it away. You're trying to get it away. So that's a way to get out. It's the way to get it out.

So the spike gets it out of the way. So it doesn't kick the ball off axis. This is, they're actually putting that finger up because it kicks the ball off axis and they want that. Cause if it were flat, it would be super straight and they can't get it to move. So by kicking it off axis, it's like, it's gonna about to start spinning in a certain way.

And then that finger hitting it last is what like gently kicks it off and slows the spin down and so it kind of spins funky. And it's for guys who are natural, really heavy supinators. I actually saw an interview that Clay did where he talked about how he grips it and how he throws it and how he thinks about it. He's a crazy, his like,

if you look at the spin axis on a sinker, it looks like a slider. It's like tumbling over itself. It's spinning so oddly that it looks like a slider. It's like tumbling over itself. It's spinning so oddly that it goes the opposite way. It's like a backup slider at 97. He's figured out a way to get the exact same spin and movement on a changeup that he wasn't able to do because it's just a different finger you're using

for the pressure. So he's thinking flick at the end. It's like, I'm gonna throw, I'm gonna do my whole throw, and at the very end, I'm just gonna flick. So it's just like you extend your finger right at the end so it is the last finger that touches it and it just kicks it off of the spin axis. I guess that's possible.

Yeah, and for some guys to get it immediately and that's because when they tried to throw their change up before, that finger kept getting in the way and so now they found a way to make it be in the way on purpose, like that's what they're trying to do as opposed to trying to avoid it. And that's literally how everybody is learning their pitches now. They're like, oh, naturally, your finger's always in the way.

Let's see if there's a grip that can make you get the motion you want with that finger being in the way. And the kick changes the new iteration of the change-up that's doing that. A lot of guys are really, really liking it. You can see it on Davis Martin, Hayden Birdsong, and now Clay Holmes. And Clay Holmes also debuted, he threw the fourth seam in the postseason. We already sort of spotted that, but he debuted a cutter as well.

So now he's... Three fastballs. Got three hard pitches, three soft pitches. I mean, it's a pretty wide starter's arsenal. Also, Andres Munoz is also throwing one, which will be really fun to watch. Oh, what? That's gonna be at like 90 or something.

Yeah, it's gonna be at like 90 or something Clay Holmes has been just a so heavily a two-pitch guy for so long in the Yankees bullpen How many guys in short relief? Have that feel and that ability to add a third or a fourth pitch the way Holmes is Doing in this transition back into starting is this a quarter of short relievers, half? We've been talking about this now for more than a year because it seems like teams are more open-minded to moving guys back into the rotation than they were even five or ten years ago. But how many guys actually could do it? I think there's more that could do it than you would think. I think that you're getting experienced pitching and you just happen to be in a role

where it's simplified enough to where you only have to throw two pitches that then you're now comfortable enough on how you get guys out that you can then start adding pitches. Like you have a process. And I think that's what we're seeing. Like with Seth Lugo, same thing.

Like he has a starter process he always had. Now he just needed to be put in the position. But like him being a reliever for so long, I think made him a better starter. Then it comes down to getting a feel for a, but him being a reliever for so long, I think made him a better starter. Then it comes down to getting a feel for a pitch. So if you find a third pitch immediately, which by all accounts, Clay literally picked this up

the first day they showed it to him, he was like, oh, that feels really good, because it looks like a sinker. It feels like a sinker to him. It looks exactly the same in his eye, so it feels very comfortable. And once you get that, then there's no reason you can't do it.

So then you know how to set guys up You know how to get through three get guys out the one time then move on to the next guy That's how you thought so I think we're seeing this happen more and more like even at the end of my career in my last year I threw the most pitches since I was a starter as a closer my last my last year I threw four pitches could I have started with that stuff? I think that I could have been put back to starter I just would have lost my VELO and not thrown as hard and then felt bad and then had a little bit different mindset and had to figure it out.

But I could have done it. I feel like I could have. And your command gets better. So I think there are a lot of options. It's just whether or not you want to take that chance. And I think that like, Araldis Chapman trying to do it for a long time. They tried to bounce guys around like this a lot,

especially like the Aughts in the late 2010s. We're like, this is never working, let's just put them out to the pen. And now we're finding, with pitch design the way it is, we're finding more options to get guys out of that, the high leverage rolls into starting again. More tweaks that can be made, and I think that's exciting, right?

I mean, and the kick change sounds like it's the hot honey, you know, like hot honeys everywhere now. Like the kick change of pitches. It's the only kind of honey that's out there right now. You know, you were writing about some, some new pitches this spring, so you can pick your, your favorite for the purposes of illustrating one on the show. I mean, what's, what's caught your eye so far this spring? I talked about Clay because what you can see with his new pitches is that he's

kind of broadened the shapes like he's changed and the foreseam doesn't have to be great. I think this is our new understanding. An early understanding was like, oh, foreseam IVB needed, you know? And so you would like, you know, talk to Clay Holmes and be like, dude, I'm sorry. You get like 16, 17 IVB, that's no bueno, dude. You know, it's not good enough. And then you're like, wait, they're sitting on the sinker because you throw the sinker all the time

and your sinker has like seven IVV or whatever. So it's like, is 10 IVV over your sinker good? Yeah, that actually is. If you compare it to other sort of four seam sinker combinations, that's a huge difference. And so even I was talking to Adam Ottavino about this, Ottavino's, this is a great example, Ottavino's four seam doesn't have great IVB, but it has more IVB than a Sinker. And they see that slot and they expect Sinker. And they also know Adam Ottavino, Sinker, you know, and so just getting something that isn't the Sinker

that has like, you know, four or five inches more ride is like, oh, okay, that's totally different. And that's gonna be surprising. So that's something we actually tried to account for in this newest version of the stuff model. But anyway, I wrote about Holmes. I wanted to give a name that is a little bit into modern pitch design as well from a different angle.

So I was just talking about four seamers that are better than expected sinkers. David Festa throws from an overhand angle. This is not a guy I wrote about, but he throws from an overhand angle and he's adding a sinker. So again, this is not the most beautiful sinker you've ever seen.

It's not a Clay Holmes sinker. It's just a sinker. It's a Dylan Bundy sinker. But, it's what? It's a Dylan Clay Holmes sinker. It's just a sinker. It's a Dylan Bundy sinker. But, it's what? It's a Dylan Bundy sinker. Over the top supinated, or the pronated sinker, which you just don't see as much. Yeah, and I think it's, and like, Cabrera hits it hard, but it's 96,

and here's what I think, on top of the movement profile, look at where Festa threw his foreseam and slider to right his last threw his foreseam and slider to right his last year. Foreseam, I guess the middle middle when he needs a strike, right? But usually high middle for swinging strikes. And then slider obviously has pretty good command

and he puts it on the outside corner like he would. He's doing nothing on the inside corner. Like on the inside third of the plate, like the pitter doesn't have to honor that at all. And that's where the sinker will go. And that's where the sinker went in the clip. That's the inside third of the plate like the pitter doesn't have to honor that at all and That's where the sinker will go and that's where the sinker went in the clip That's the other part of not only is it different movement than your force theme But it's gonna be thrown to different places and then he can also even play with a high sinker He could do a playoff it where they think they're getting the high force theme

They get the high sinker and that saws their bat off So, you know just having multiple hard offerings, I think is. It's like an old school trend. And probably by the time that since we're noticing it right now, you know, out there, it's probably every team is, is trying to do it, but some teams are better at it than others. I think the, the twins are sort of jumping onto this one now where they're adding fastballs.

And so, you know, we're gonna see many more sinkers and cutters over the next few years as teams are like, you can't just throw one hard pitch. I think that's something we want for Grayson Rodriguez. Like a sinker would be good for him. The sweeper might really help him, but he only throws one hard pitch. Anybody who throws one hard pitch,

you might find the results on that hard pitch are worse than like a stuff model would project or that you expect, you know, because they can at least be like, I can keyhole your hard pitch. If it's hard coming out of your hand, I know how it's gonna move and I probably know where it's going.

You know, if you're just a four seam guy and it's hard out of the hand, that's a high thing and I know what to do about it, you know? I mean, I think the location on that fast ball, like that's part of the problem for David Festa last year opponent slug 544 on that pitch middle middle you're cooking in the middle of the zone and it was it's 94.7 it's like 97 miles an hour 98 miles an hour you can get away with that more often so I think that's part of it. And if he could throw the sinker to the same middle middle location and the movement brings it out of middle that might help him too. It's at least a small adjustment that'll make the four seamer a little more effective

but the ultimate tweak would probably also be what elevating the four seamer more consistently, right? Like you can't live at that part of the strike zone like the two seamer guaranteed helps but also throw the four seamer higher. Yeah. Yeah. It was a video that I could not find, cut this among the non-existent pitch changes so far, but Max Meyer, and I think it's kind of interesting because I saw this note that he touched like 97

with his fastball. I remember last year when his first appearance back from injuries against the Yankees happened to be the game that was on TV. He looked really good people get excited about Max Meyer former first-round pick finally healthy again I get it It kind of sounds like he's making multiple adjustments though, right taking the slider kind of add drop on the slider and then making sweeper Adjustment to so I have having two really good breaking balls and then you know I think the other tweak is improving the change-up and I was reading about this there was an MLB.com

story they were losing track man doing all the things teams do pitch design and shape to just re reconfigure the whole arsenal for Meier because he was so heavily dependent upon two pitches and I thought it was interesting only because we we talked to Bill Heazel director of pitching for the Marlins back during the winter meetings and they have raw talent and they've done pretty well historically with pitching in Miami. Some of it's the ballpark, some of it's the player development they've had in the past too but all this is to say it's like Max Meyer, he's going into the season with a lot of confidence after reading this story.

He says all of his pitches feel like the best pitch in his arsenal right now. I was like well that's good, that's good as long as you can actually execute him in games. But it just seems like the problems he had last year was just relying way too heavily on two pitches, right? And at least splitting up the slider to go sweeper slider and getting some more drop, that's probably going to go a long way towards making him more effective as he tries to stick as a starter in 2025. I think one of the good sort of foundational things is, you know, he can spin it. That can be, I think, a separational thing for people is, you know, he was having some trouble

putting an arsenal around it, but there are plenty of players who have long big league careers in the pen or in the rotation where their best facet is spinning it. Like we watched Kyle Bradish try to figure it out around that slider and then he did. You know, it was, you know, once you have that elite breaking ball, I think it's a question of sort of shaping an arsenal around it. And sometimes it takes a little while if your fastball's a little dead zone-y or you can't

throw a change up or whatever. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta put some pieces around it. I mean, Charlie Morton has just an elite curve ball and it took him some time to figure out which was the right fast ball to put around it and how to, how to treat that pitch. And I do think that Max Meyer can spin it and that is a real great place to start.

So giving him two breaking balls, that seems like he could do it. He had one great breaking ball. Why can't he spin it in a slightly different way? And then also giving him a sinker. The one problem is none of these things is necessarily going to fix what he can do against lefties. I mean, you know, adding a sinker and adding a sweeper, sure, that's great, but he doesn't necessarily have a primary weapon against lefties. Maybe it'll be that hard gyro slider, but, you know, sinkers and sweepers are things

you usually use against same-handed guys. Yeah, and the change-up, he threw it 18% of the time last year, I think he threw 173 change-ups, 139 were thrown to lefties, so that's probably gonna be a big part of it too, and I don't know, does it sound like a full- 89 stuff plus, though, on that thing, I don't know, I'm not sure, it's not a great change-up, I don't think. Is that from last year great change I don't think is that's from last year. He said he's tweaking. He's been tweaking

Yeah, so it's just like you're adding stuff and you're changing what you already had and the foundation of what you had really wasn't That bad especially with that slide, but they've made they bumped that slider using jump 40% last year So now splitting that up into two pitches, I think will make him a lot more effective So I want to see it on video want to see how it goes as he's working deeper and even when you have video it's tough because Christopher Sanchez told us he's throwing a new pitch and we all assumed it might probably be a cutter because he throws his sinker slider change right now and Throwing a cutter to righties might be a good way to have two hard pitches And so I watched his whole outing

and I was trying to decide are these cutters or sinkers because it's a crazy, it's not a great angle. Like all these spring videos, not a good, and I even did this slowed one and I was like, and I sent it to Trevor and I was like, dude, this is a high sinker, isn't it? Because I was looking at the target and it's just not a target you would give for a cutter.

And it's, it's hard to say, is that always that go down at the end? Does that go arms like arm side movement when the pitcher is to the left of, you know, you're just not going to see arm side movement from a lot of these angles. So we decided it was a sinker. We're going to show it to you. But you know, one thing that's nice about Sanchez is the other way you can add a new pitch quote unquote is he's like sitting 97. By the way, Max Meyer never touched 97 last year.

So 97.7 is the best Max all the way back to spring training of 2022. And the thing that we get tricked by a lot of times on the side is just the short outing, right? You need to see it in the three and four inning appearances later on in the spring to know that it's real and not just max effort, I got 15 pitches, 20 pitches today and I'm just airing it out. So that's going to be part of it for Meyer, but just a lot of things trending in the right direction I think as he tries to secure his role as a starter in that Miami rotation. Let's talk about the value of pitching deep into games.

You know, you found an interesting piece from Louis Polis that was looking at just how impactful it is when starters work deeper. I think Trevor dubbed this the Jordan Lyles effect, which I thought was a great callback. One of the first things he did was, he's trying to make the case for leaving your starter in is the name of the piece and it's the lose letter is his newsletter that he does. The first

thing he shows when he shows it you're like first you're like oh that's kind of duh but it's the beginning of the argument which is the longer the starter goes in the better the the relievers ERA is in that game. And you're like, if you think about it, you're like, oh yeah, duh. You're using the back, like the good reliever, like it's the, you know, eighth and ninth inning relievers, as opposed to the guy that the manager has to throw in in the fifth, you know, when, when, you know, things have gone poorly. But he does some fancy modeling. He was a former member of the Phillies front office

as an R&D analyst. And he tries to account for a lot of different things like team quality and all this stuff. And this is the big nugget he found because he started looking at what happens in the next game and what happens over the course of the season if your starters go long and he said each inning a starter pitches today

lowers their teams relief ERA by seven points tomorrow and that's Not only about who you're starting in the game today But it also is like this say it can be a little bit dush too, but it's like, it's also like, oh wow. Like, because the dush part is like, okay, well yeah. If my guy goes seven tonight, then we only use two relievers and then my third best reliever is still fresh for tomorrow.

Back to backs get reduced. Yeah. Even for those guys, I'll use like twice. Yeah. We like, we almost like duh, like, but quantifying it is really interesting. Let's change the way we're thinking about using staffs. We thought, oh, all those really, ERAs for relievers are lower, we're not using them enough, let's use them a ton.

And of course what's gonna happen is we're gonna use them up and get them hurt and make them pitch when they're not as fresh. And they're really, the EAs are going to go up. And so, you know, I just thought this was a great piece and it made me think about, I looked at starter innings pitch last year and Seattle's number one. That's a function of having young pitchers to some extent, but also when they acquired Luis Castillo, he has a large arsenal, multiple hard pitches,

multiple soft pitches. He can go deep into games. Seattle always has a great bullpen and it usually is pretty fresh down the stretch too, but the Royals are doing this. The Braves are third. Phillies, I think do it with a little bit with money, like signing Zach Wheeler, resigning Nola, they have proven veterans and go deep. And then the Mets fifth, I think is just perfect because that fits in what we were talking about earlier

about adding multiple hard pitches. They look at, okay, we can, we don't even have to spend a lot of money on the starting rotation, but we can take guys and give them an extra hard pitch, a cutter or a sinker, and we can help them go deeper into games, and that'll keep our bullpen fresher.

And if you think about the Mets bullpen, it hasn't ever been really, really deep, you know, in the last couple of years, but it has had like the Diaz and Butoh, and you know, like the very good guys at the end. So, you know, you kind of wanna keep those guys as fresh as possible, and you can do that by having starters that have multiple hard pitches

go deep into games. So I just thought that was a cool little thing. I think it's even more valuable too, for I think that this would be an article that I would like show if I were with the Mets. So show to Jeremy Hefner and be like, we all know this stuff, like it's intuitive, like we're intuitively know like yes, deeper into games,

having your starters go deeper regularly or hitting however long, hitting their maximum innings that you want them to hit is better, but this gives like how much, like what is the effect? And that's a huge effect. That gives you a number, adds a number, or gives you a number for how a bullpen

might be affected over time. One interesting thing and what I would ask, like if I were like, okay, we want to come up with an actual philosophy here and have a real, like something to act on, I would say, could we figure this out based on series? Because series, like when the starter starts the series with like a seven inning start,

how does that affect reliever ERA for the rest of that series? Because a lot of the series are separated by an off day, which then kind of rolls over resets, we call those mini off seasons in the bullpen, where everyone's fresh after that. Basically, we all look around and we say, the worst thing possible is having a day

where you come into the field and all the bullpen guys look at each other like, are you up today? Because I'm not pitching. I'm not pitching. You're gonna pitch, so who's available? And you look and you go look at the three rookies, they go, oh you guys got it today, and you just hope that you're not on the,

like you got a guy who's usually throwing in the six inning who's closing now. And then there's this stress that happens, everyone's gonna have to be in situations, everyone's gonna have to be in situations where they're not usually in. You wanna avoid that, because that's when the snowball starts to roll down the hill.

So then you could create a rubric for making your decisions in the opening game of a series. If you wanna keep the starter in or not, and yeah, straight off. Maybe let that starter load the bases, or you know what I mean? Maybe let him try and get out of it. Maybe let him push, like open the seventh.

Get one more out. Or at least have that in their head because we had this with George Kirby, right? He's like, well, I threw my six, I thought it was done. Or I threw my five, I thought it was done. And that becomes the norm. The relievers are like, well, he's only gonna throw this many.

They feel like we have to cover. We have to cover. There's no way. Have to cover four. Have to, have to. And it becomes this like thing that's that. And Kirby has the skill set to go to. Exactly, he's almost like, just let me go.

But sometimes that stuff feels arbitrary, even though I understand the third time around or whatever, but I think we can find spots, be like, today's a great day for him to throw seven, and if we're in that position, where he is in the seventh inning and things are great, and he's doing what he normally does, go. So basically, you just give him a little bit longer leash

on that day. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and that could be a, I think that could be a difference maker for some of these teams that you can avoid those really tough stretches in the middle of the season where your bullpen is getting roasted because it's just a last,

it's not just a that day problem, it's a maybe a week of problems. And if you can avoid that snowball effect a little bit better, mitigate it a little bit more, I think it has a lot more value and a lot more effect on how a team's successful over a year than even maybe. I think he's just scratching the surface, but it's really interesting to me, very interesting.

There's this weird tie in with how we develop pitchers in the minor leagues right now, where they're not coming up with many pitches. I've said this a million times, but you have four pitchers who average more than 80 pitches per start in AAA. They're not building the bulk as you come through as much. I think mostly they want to protect the arms. They want to slowly ramp them up.

They don't want to waste a lot of bullets in the minor. So can you develop as a starter with 80 pitches? Sure. You have to turn the lineup over. You can do that. But what happens then is if you're a major league team and you're like, okay, we've got, I don't know what a good example of this is. Oh, I know what it is. Bubba Chandler, you know, as our fifth starter going into the season, like we should feel good about that, right? Because Bubba Chandler is one of the top three pitching prospects in baseball. We should, we should just let him go. He's going to be why we're good. One of the reasons why we're good this year. Let's do it. Why do you go and sign Andrew Haney

for five million? Some people would be cynical and say, oh, to keep Bubba down longer. I would say that it's more, well, you don't know, first of all, how many innings Bubba can go in a start. You don't know how successful he's gonna be at turning that lineup over. And it's a good way to hedge your bets and it's a good way to maybe put everyone in position to succeed also.

Like Bubba comes up when he is ready and everything's right. And it also is a good way to maybe protect your bullpen because all things equal, probably Andrew Haney, even with not necessarily, I don't know if he's ideal for this is not the ideal example but like getting a veteran who has a large arsenal who can turn it over that's why they signed King Tana last year he's a slightly better example because Haney has a little bit of a smaller arsenal but the point is these veteran guys are going to help save your bullpen too

it's not just about what it means for Bubba and what it means for your rotation. There's what it means for the whole team. And so you'll see most teams do this where every year there's like this, like, you know, one for 10, one for 15, you know, anywhere from one for five to one for 15, sort of bonanza of one year deals for veterans. And, you know, we used to make fun of this at FanaGraphs calling it veteran presence with a TS, but you know, these guys bring a veteran presence

with a CE, which can be undervalued, I think. And then also they bring like some sort of roster spackle and like maybe bullpen saving. And so I did want to ask you Trevor, like what you've seen, you know, in terms of veteran mentorship inside the, you know, Justin Verlander comes to camp and they're talking already about him being a mentorship, mentor to these players.

And this is when old Fangraph's young blogger in my basement kind of would roll my eyes and be like, he's toast and I know better than anybody and he's not helping anybody in camp. But you know, you've got young guys like Birdsong, like there's, it's, there's the non-zero chance of Verlander does help Birdsong in some way. So I just wonder if you have any stories or any thoughts of like, you know, when you saw that kind of mentorship really work out or if it ever happened for you or an older player kind of opened your eyes somehow.

Yeah, like it's definitely a real thing. And especially with like, there's a certain respect thing here too. Young guys come up, there's a lot of people now around clubhouses that didn't necessarily play at a really high level. So they don't have like a track record or a point. I'd be like, look, I have video proof

of me figuring certain things out. That does matter. And that's not to take away. Coaches, I'm talking about coaches that didn't play. It helps. They don't have that same. It's helpful. If you had that, that would be nice that everyone had it.

But I understand why that doesn't mean that anyone doesn't know what they're talking about. It's just like your ability to absorb that information and trust it is just up a little bit more because they did the thing you're trying to do. I've done the exact thing you're doing. Yes. Mark Pryor's like, I also had a slider like this.

Yeah, that just kinda carries weight, maybe makes you make the transition a little bit quicker. So these young guys with really good stuff, they come up, a guy like Justin Verlander, he speaks and you sit and you listen. You just listen to the thing he said, you're overhearing him having a conversation with someone else, you're trying to grab something something because maybe he's like, oh I thought about

This pitch being like this once and then you try it. Oh, wow, like little stuff like that They've tried so many things that maybe there is something there So you're like I have this unique issue Have you have you have you ever tried to solve this problem or and it was there like weird processes you tried that baby? Aren't like in the normal zeitgeist of learning how to pitch design right now? There's that. And then there is a competitiveness thing and a leadership thing.

So you just like, instead of feeling like you have to put pressure on yourself to do things that leaders are supposed to do or if your team's young, you kind of just can defer. And sometimes that's nice. It's kind of like being a backup quarterback in the NFL and why like being a backup for three years produces the most guys developing

into the best long-term versions of themselves. And we see that's usually the best situation. The guys who have to start right away aren't great. Like that's cause they have a guy they're backing up and they can watch. Like that's what you're trying to get. But in terms of bringing someone in just to do that, you have to still have like on the field value

and Justin Verlander very much so does. We're right because the players also be like, you know, that guy's washed, I'm not listening to that. Exactly, and then it goes away when they're just saying stuff and they're just like, they seem like they're just talking out of their butt. Like they're like, you can't do those things anymore. Right, now you're just rolling your eyes

at the old dude over there that thinks he knows who he's talking about. My experience, one was Matt Belisle's last year with us with the twins, he dropped down. He would try anything, right? So one thing with Matt, he'd be, he'll just change the way he pitched one day because he's like, I'm willing to do this

in order to get guys in the big leagues. That was one thing that we all learned from Matt Belisle, like how flexible you need to be in order to stick around as long as he did, because he was 40 at that time. But he was also just very, very open and honest. When he sees something, he's like, dude, that's really good.

Or dude, that doesn't look very good. Or wow, that's, and he was rare with that. He's such a nice guy that he would never say like, I don't know if that's gonna work, but he'd just be like, he'd be like, yeah, that didn't move the way I think that you think it moved. Have you tried this?

And he always involved Eddie Guardado, who was our bullpen coach at the same time. So he'd always be like, Eddie, come over here. And then the two veteran guys would kind of come at you and give different. So like, he always brought him in too. So that was another thing that was a veteran. And he wasn't, he had like no role at the end, like none.

Like they were just, he was just sitting out there with us. He was a coach for all intents and purposes. And he knew that, but like, that was really valuable for me. Max Scherzer, he sees something and he feels really strongly about it, he's just gonna tell you. Which is great, and he loves watching bullpens, which was also awesome.

But him and Chris Bassett just going back and forth talking about pitching, because Chris Bassett's a, here's everything in the kitchen sink, and I might make a pitch up in the middle of the outing, because that's the way I like to pitch. And so they had so much in common, they're both the most stubborn people on the planet too. So it was really funny watching them interact.

But like, I would just sit behind them. Yeah, when I was done pitching, I would sit behind them and they would sit there on the front of the fence during the Mets games and just literally just talk about pitching. They've been talking about pitching for nine innings every single game. And then you can go and be like,

what do you guys see from me? And they would just tell you. That's just invaluable. Having those guys that you know are watching you, thinking about like, what would I do in that situation? And trying to evaluate you, just because they like that. It's just like a, it's a comfortability thing with having a guy on the team who feels like a coach.

I think you need one on every team. You just do. You need someone that you're, that guys are comfortable going to and trying to learn ropes, pitching, hitting, or just how to be, how to operate in a clubhouse with a bunch of different personalities and stuff. Like they have information on all that stuff. I tend to see like negative sometimes from the outside, but I remember Matt Harvey was like very much broadcasting kind of like an anti-media bias in that clubhouse when he was there. And that spread really quickly.

And he had his own reasons for it. I think maybe he was covered unfairly. I get his angle. I mean, not that it wasn't deserved, but it was a pain in his ass. It really was. Yeah, does everyone have to write about how his outlay last night?

Just leave me alone. You know, that sort of thing. Leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I also think sometimes of like Adam Wainwright just like not really digging technology at all and how that became sort of pervasive in the Cardinals organization to the point

where they're now kind of years behind and have to play catch up. And it's not Adam Wainwright's fault. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that to some extent, if you're like, say you're a young guy catch up and it's not Adam Wainwright's fault. I'm not saying that I'm just saying that to some extent, if you're like, say you're a young guy coming up and there is maybe an assistant pitching coach that's like, Hey, like, uh, you know, I know you want to do this, but like, could we try like, how about if your slider had lift instead of drop? You know, I'm not even going to say the word sweeper.

Cause I know Adam might be around the corner. That's real. But he's like, what if you're that's real What if you're what if your slider didn't have as much drop and you actually made it more sideways? Yeah, and then you know, like then you start bringing out the edge of tronic and Adams like what's that? That's not good. So, you know, those are just some negative examples But they matter a little bit and one that I can say for Verlander is he's been pro tech for a long time.

And I think he's worked with some of the best pitching coaches out there. I think he'd be more likely to bring the coach in almost in like the Eddie Guardado way where he's gonna be like, you know, like not trying to be the pitching coach, but trying to be like, this is how I think about it. And you should talk to your coach because, you know, they probably know well too, you know, but trying to be like, this is how I think about it, and you should talk to your coach, because they probably know well too.

They're looking, they have your numbers. I don't necessarily have your numbers in front of me, but you know what I mean? Yeah, let's just see a JV Sinker. How about that? I just want to see him throw a Sinker this year though. Like lead by example. I do kind of want him to throw a Sinker.

I wonder if he would pull that trick at 40. Still has to be his idea though, right? Generally? It might be. Even if he's good at providing some mentorship to younger pitchers, getting in the ear of Verlander and getting him to try something

seems like that's still very difficult. It could be, it could be. I mean, he's in that Scherzer, Bassett opinionated. And he's earned his right to be opinionated with a long track record of success. You're going to go to the Hall of Fame. I think you can continue doing things your way. That's probably fine. As far as this year's large batch of guys that signed one-year deals, Verlander, Scherzer,

among them Walker Buehler, well, Count Nick Martinez, he took the qualifying offer. Charlie Morton, Alex Cobb, a lot of veterans in new places. You mentioned Heaney before, guys like Griffin Canning and Cal Quantrill, Kyle Hendricks, whole bunch of guys to choose from. Who's your favorite one-year pitcher deal for 2025 that you think is gonna be making a big impact

either just directly, because they're gonna pitch well, or at least going to help make other guys around them better. Mine's Charlie Morton. Interesting. Because I think his stuff's still good. I think that the only thing that we've seen in the last couple years maybe is the command start to get a little erratic at times and that's just, you know, he's a kind of a swingy side to side kind of motion type guy and sometimes you get a out of whack. And Ottavino talked about this too.

He's like, you get older and you're a big guy. It's just one of the things that happens. But all movement profile and everything good. And he's just healthy. He makes 30 starts every year. And the Orioles need that so badly. They just need a guy that's gonna pitch 30 starts this year. They need one.

And they're in danger of not having anybody that does that. So I just think value to his team, being the veteran presence we saw like, when they had Cal Gibson, he was a nice veteran presence they had and James McCann there, he was like, those were two good guys they had on their team for a really lot of young guys that they loved,

that they all bought into. I think Morton's one of those guys, he just loves pitching, loves talking about pitching. You ask him a question, he can answer a question for 10 minutes about it. It's awesome. And I think that he's going to add a lot to that young, the young stacks, even the guys

coming back off injury, like they're all going to just cluster around him. So I like him for them. Yeah. And he's like one of the most thoughtful interviews I've ever had. And you know, he's in temperament, very different from Scherzer and Verlander. He's very pro tech too. And I feel like he will broadcast the right things. And I think he does care about going deep into games.

And that's something that, you know, Bradish and Grayson Rodriguez, you know, I think if they add that component to their games where they're like, this might be a sub-optimal pitch for right now, but it is going to set me up to go into the six inning easier, you know, that sort of deal. They can learn a lot from that. Grayson Rodriguez in particular is not the type of pitcher that Morton is.

I mean, he's a pronator. He's more of a fastball changeup guy, but I would love it if they just, you know, had a bus ride together. I think that there would be a lot for Grayson to learn there. You know, as much as Max Schroeder, you know, doesn't agree with me on a lot of things, I think that, you know, going, landing in Toronto is good for a couple of reasons. I like him just, I think he still has something left.

I think the back injury just robbed him of some slider command in a way. If you look at the stuff numbers, they're still pretty good. And the Velo was all right. And he just, he just couldn't of some slider command in a way. If you look at the stuff numbers, they're still pretty good and the Velo was all right. And he just couldn't command the slider. And I feel like that's something that could happen with the back, I don't know. You know, it's a little bit like what you're saying with Morton, a lot of the stuff

and a lot of the shapes are okay and everything's there. It's just, he couldn't command it with the back feeling bad. And I also think he's like a bulldog. That could help maybe Bowden Francis a little bit as he has to transition from like a pitcher that no one knows anything about to a pitcher that everyone has a scouting report on,

everyone's ready for, you know? Some of that kind of bulldog, you belong here, you're here to dominate, you know, that sort of feeling. So Scherzer could help in a couple of different ways, but I just think he has stuff left and he's back with Bassett. You got to throw out there him and Chris Bassett, our teammates. That's right. That's why he went there.

That's why he went there. I like the Verlander signing for the reasons we've talked about. And it's just it's it's nice to hear and see stories about him providing that presence, aside from the fact that I do think he still has something left in the tank. He's one of those guys that have to drag him off the mount. He's gonna be what his career's finally over. He wants to piss to 45. I mean, hey, I'm not gonna tell him he can't.

If you guys wanna, go ahead. But that's not for me. We are gonna go on our way out the door. Reminder, you can find us on Blue Sky. Trevor is imtrevermay.bsky.social. Eno is enoserus.bsky.social. Imdvr.bsky.social. Thanks to our producer, Brian Smith, for putting this episode together.

If you need to get a subscription to the athletic, theathletic.com slash rates and barrels. We'll get that for you. That is going to do it for this episode of Rates and Barrels. We're back with you on Friday. Thanks for listening.