Rates & Barrels - Ranking the Top Rotations in Baseball

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Eno, Trevor, and DVR discuss spring news including an opportunity for Brett Baty at second base (!?) before sharing their top-10 rotations for the upcoming season and the unique challenges of grading pitching groups this way. Plus, Eno shares a few new training tools he's seen and heard about while in Arizona this spring.  Rundown 1:35 Spring News & Notes: Max Scherzer, Lucas Giolito & Jeff McNeil 10:24 Our Picks for the Top 10 Rotations in Baseball 14:00 Eno's Three Category Approach (The Dodgers Third?!) 21:01 Disagreement About the Rangers 27:08 Do You Buy Trevor's Concerns About the Braves' Rotation Depth? 36:30 A Would You Rather Toss-Up Steeped in Regression 45:04 New Things and Unique Processes Being Implemented This Spring Follow Eno on Bluesky: @enosarris.bsky.social Follow DVR on Bluesky: @dvr.bsky.social Follow Trevor on Bluesky: @[e-mail] e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Subscribe to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Hosts: Derek VanRiper & Eno Sarris With: Trevor May Executive Producer: Derek VanRiper Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Derek VanRyper, Inosarif, Trevor May here with you on this episode. We have taken on the task of ranking the best rotations in baseball. It is a more challenging exercise than I expected to be going in, but we're going to have a few debates, talk about our process, get into the weeds on that a little bit. We've got some spring news we're going to get to, and we're going to talk about a few things that teams might be doing and players might be doing training wise at spring training this year that's just different, unique, relatively new. So we'll dig into some of those things that are happening as well.

A quick heads up and a reminder. We have our two live episodes at Bear Bottle Brewing Company just two weeks away, March 27th and March 28th, March 27th, of course, is opening day for 30 local starts at the Bear Bottle, Bernal Heights location in San Francisco Looking forward to trying the beer that you know brewed kayakers Cove great looking label on that I gotta get the wide label on the screen It's in discord if you want to check that out Of course, you can join the discord with the link in the show description. So tons of ground to cover

We got hard outs We got the threat of John Fogarty looming yet again because Eno is still at spring training this time in Maryvale. No game today though, so much less likely to get a center field blaring through randomly in the middle of the show. We're going to take a quick spin around the league and look at a few news items. I saw Max Scherzer had an MRI on his thumb that apparently checked out okay. He's had a very good spring so far. 14 Ks, no walks in nine innings.

It led me to a quick question for Trevor. How many MRIs happen in spring training that we don't even know about because of relatively small things that pop up. That seems like there might be MRIs we never hear anything about a lot. Honestly, in terms of not hearing about them, I think that, yeah, sometimes they're like, we're not gonna mention unless someone asks us explicitly, but usually that's coupled with someone

not playing that day that would have played, and then they kinda have to tell ya. So it's, I don't think there's a lot of secret ones, but yeah, there's a lot where they're like, let's just get one. And if nobody, we would prefer if nobody knew about it, but like we're not going to keep it a secret. Yeah. But the MRI machines in Florida and Arizona

are getting work. That is for sure. Dude, there are off season surgeries we don't know about. Off season is a little different. They're home. They can not tell their team that's happened before. So even though they're paying with their insurance and they know about it, they have to file it, they still try to get away with it.

So yeah, off season surgeries, little cleanups and such, those are pretty common too, where they just walk into Spring-June and by the way, I had two minor procedures in December. On what? Like my shoulder and my hip. Yeah, Trevor was like, if they're not in the lineup, then everyone's like, well, why is he not in the lineup today? There's these questions, right?

They're not in the lineup all off season, so there's no reason to ask him about it. So if the player doesn't volunteer it, then they don't have to tell the media. So there are literally, I think we probably know, my estimate is we know about, I would say we know less than half of the off-season surgeries that happen.

Less than half? Do you think that's accurate, Trevor? I was talking to a hitting coach and he mentioned offhand that two of his guys had surgeries that nobody knows about. I would say position players, hitters. There's like a lot of like little hand, little like ankle, little like foot,

little like stuff that's like scar tissue, or it's like an abrasion, or that's actually like a normal procedure that someone who is dealing with something chronic would deal with. That's the majority of it. Like we had some guys with patella tendonitis, they get shin splints all the time.

And there's cleanups you can get for that that make it a lot easier. It's little stuff like that, especially if the rehab, if you're going to spring, it's gonna be exactly the same. There's no reason to tell anybody, but 50%, that wouldn't surprise me either because as a pitcher, sometimes I'm like, we're in May, they're like,

well, you know, when I had my cleanup in January, I'm like, you had surgery? Like we don't even know, some of the players don't know. That's how separate we are for the most part in terms of our work. Maybe I'm a little aggressive. Maybe it's like 30%. It might be a little bit, but like,

it's closer than you think. I felt like it's more like we know 75 to 80% of the actual injuries that are happening. That's still a lot though if you think about how many players there are, even if it was 80%. Like we don't, like the takeaway here is we don't know all of them. Right.

For sure. True. But we're definitely in that part of the year where random stuff pops up. You're like, oh, your thumb was bothering you and you had an MRI and it came back clean? Great. Glad everything's checking out.

Okay. I did see Lucas G. Alito is going to open the year on the IAL. Fortunately, it's just for a hamstring strain that he suffered during his spring outing on Tuesday. So relatively short term absence expected there, but I thought it was worth a follow up just because we had talked about him getting back. Just one little hiccup after another. I think that's an underrated part of like,

when we talk about injury risk, when we talk about, you know, things like this, we're sort of hyper-focused and hyper-fascinated with the elbow. And one of the ways that just older pitchers deal with stuff is these other things, you know, backs and knees and hamstrings. I know those things hurt for me. backs and knees and, and, and hamstrings. I know those things hurt for me.

Kinetic chains and whatnot. Yeah. Some other, some other link on the chain that you haven't had to worry about suddenly breaks and you're like, great. Now I gotta read this for the rest of my career. It just piles up. Ask Joe Maurer. That's what he was doing for his whole, the, the, the last years of his career. He was in the training room or not in the room, in the weight room for like three hours,

just going through his progression because of all the little stuff that he had to worry about. That's kind of what happens. So I bust her posy and Trevor May retired early, I just didn't want to deal with it. True. To put you in the same sentence with the future Hall of Fame, you're like that.

After the same year, hard bad. Yeah. At the same age. So there you go, you both the same year, Harbed. At the same age. So there you go. You both left early. Practically cousins. Did he inspire me? Maybe.

One other news item I wanted to bring up to you guys, Jeff McNeil likely to open the year on the IL with an oblique injury. That might actually take a little more time to heal, which is a great source of intrigue though, because they have options. That bothers me. I have a fair amount of shares of Jack and Neil because he's second base and outfield eligible and he's a great backup player in most rosters.

I think he's better than Luis Angel Acuña, but now Luis Angel Ac Acuna will get a chance and maybe he'll just take the job. I mean, there's a possibility there. Yeah, you seem scared. They're gonna play Brett Beatty over there, it sounds like too. He played a little bit there, a triple A last season,

hasn't played there in the big leagues before. I'm kind of curious if you guys think Brett Beatty can play a capable second base, because Beatty versus Acuna, at least until some future date when Ronnie Mauricio is healthy, would be the best tandem that the Mets have available to fill in that spot in the short term.

So who do you like to come away with the early season playing time there for the Mets? I was loud wrong about Beatty last year too, man. Like I thought Beatty was gonna be a breakout guy. I mean, I think he has this, I mean, I've seen a lot of Brett Beatty and I got to play with him a breakout guy. I mean, I think he has this, I mean, I've seen a lot of Brett Beatty and I got to play with him a little bit. And he, I mean, his skills-wise and tools-wise

are still there. I think it's just about, it's about execution at this point, like putting it, having it happen, results-wise. And it just hasn't happened yet, but I think it comes down to like, righty versus lefty stick. Are we going for speed? You know, they got, they have, you know, now we have, we have Pete Alonso's our, our big righty stick.

We've got a lefty in Soto. Like I think it might, that might come down to it whether or not they want to have what side of the plate because they're both pretty young. I think that the nod probably goes to Beatty cause they want to see, like, I think it comes down to, you want to know whether or not, hey, is this going to happen? Right. Is he an asset for organization, or are we just moving on at this point?

It might be give him another chance. If he gets it, it's give him another chance situation. If not, they've already made that decision, in my opinion, probably. The Beatty, I think with the hard hit rates and the max EVs you know like that's what you're talking about a little bit is like the underlying tools the skills like they seem like they're there he just has hit the ball on the ground and even guys you know the the rays are full of guys that have a 114 max EV and a 50 percent ground ball rate they They do this all the time. And for some reason it's worked for them, but it hasn't worked for, for a

baby yet, but you do have to point out 602 plate appearances over three years. So it's not really quite like a full shot at any time. Um, and the, you know, I would also say we were talking about third base versus second base, um, skill sets. I forget who it was about, but I asked you about it, Trevor, and you were talking about lateral quickness. Uh, it was Bregman. Bregman maybe being a little bit more important, lateral quickness, a little bit more important at second.

And if I remember correctly, I would say that I can't necessarily get that off the eye test, but I would say the Betty is young. So it's not like you're taking a young, an old third baseman and putting him at second. You're taking a younger guy. So yes, Angel Okunya would be better defensively at second, it was my guess, but Beatty has the much better offensive upside, so I think he'll get the first shot. Probably won't be a liability with the glove

and that might be enough in this case to get that at least temporary opportunity. Also saw from Mets camp, Shamanaya has begun his throwing progression, could be back by the end of April. So some good news for that banged up group of pitchers. They try and make their way back from the IL. It's the season to shop new styles, electronics,

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That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. Hey, it's DJ First Dibs. I notice you've been listening to a lot of summer vibes lately. I get it. You're dreaming about vacations. Ooh baby, that's my jam. With Sunwing's first dibs on summer savings, let us curate something stronger than what you've been listening to.

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What's our starting word today? I think it should be ocean. I have seen you do spelling bee during meetings. The New York Times crossword is a moment of zen that cleanses my brain. I wish the days were shorter and that the wordless were longer. Join us and play all New York Times games at nyitimes.com slash games. Subscribe by March 16th to get a special offer. Speaking of pitching, the meat of today's rundown focuses on our picks for the top 10 rotations in baseball. Usually ranking things for me is pretty easy. This was not easy.

We settled on a few different things that we wanted to focus on. The current starting five, the next three starters up. So there was a depth component here. And then I think we were also talking about health grades, maybe being kind of factored into this as part of our rubric as well. So what do you care about in a situation like this, Trevor? You went in and ranked all 30 rotations for a video on your YouTube channel earlier this week.

That's sort of what inspired us to bring this to the conversation today. So what matters to you is you're trying to sort this out? When I'm trying to do, I learned my lesson last spring training about rankings and how most of them are kind of just done on a vibes basis, how you feeling about it. And I was like, I wanna make sure I have some categories to some main things I wanna look at

so that I can have a reason for the rankings. And then also maybe make them a little bit more unique than everybody else's. I mean, I think that's a point when you're doing media as well. And this time around, the three I kind of landed on was depth, how can you weather injuries and how many injuries can you weather

and have starting pitchers actually starting games? I had innings, how many innings can you're starting pitching with that depth in mind handle in a year? Like the Mariners were as an A plus plus plus plus in this throwing six guys all year. Like that is the best you could possibly get. And so like it also takes stress off the bullpen. And then the last one was a little bit unique to me.

And I was just thinking a lot about the playoffs and I call it the playoff three, the big three. You need three dudes. If you have three studs that you can count on that aren't gonna throw a clunker in a playoff series and they're all cooking, that team usually gets all the way to the end. If not wins at all. The best starting pitching, this isn't like, you know, we're not talking about bloody shot, a bloody sock shilling or like,

you know, uh, Randy Johnson and like, we're not talking about guys going out there and bum garnering it and throwing every inning. I'm just throwing five and two thirds and giving up a run. Do you have three good starters? Do you have a third, a game three starter that you actually want to put in there, not a bullpen? I almost think it's like three starters

that you trust to face the lineup a third time, or at least the heart of the lineup a third time, because that's sort of the differentiator between the guys that get you to the postseason, those four and five guys that are good, to help you eat innings and are better than other teams, four and five versus the guys that stay out there longer in October. Yeah, they're usually the pig up piggyback, gotta have a game for, we need a piece of together type guys. Those are nice.

I was inspired a little bit by something Trevor said about, um, you know, also there being like kind of this middle where like, how precise can you actually be? Even if you look at the Fangraph's depth charts for starting pitching, there are places in the rankings where they're separated by half a win, where there's like five teams separated by half a win. So you have to pick one of those.

And I think there's a little bit of false precision being like, I'm gonna pick this team because I've got 0.1 more have got to pick one of those. And I think there's a little bit of false precision being like, I'm going to pick this team because I've got 0.1 more war projected. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you going to do? So the inspiration I took from Trevor May in this is I did a ranking of health. Um, and the top three, like your top three studs and stuff, but I just did a letter grade ranking and I thought that would take me away

from some of this precision and give me a better sense of the strengths of these teams and show you some groupings. So, you know, in my top five, basically, you have top fives, you have A stuff or A plus stuff, and you have A or A plus, you know, you have A's in stuff and top three. That's how you got into my top five. Where the Phillies became maybe a surprise number one

for teams, for anybody looking at this. I had the Phillies number one because they also add this A health grade as I saw it. They have, and health is health plus depth right it's everything. I'm gonna give the Dodgers a D because yes they have good depth but what we saw last year from the Dodgers was they have such an aggressive injury risk on that roster that it might actually get to the point where they don't have a top three in the playoffs. That's what

they were like last year. We're like, there were so many injuries that they were still wondering who was going to start the next game. Like if they hadn't won the world series in the game, they did. They had no idea who was pitching the next day. You know what I mean? Um, and so a D health grade for the Dodgers actually big dinged them all the way down to third.

I had the Mariners in there because I think the Mariners can bang when it comes to stuff, can bang when it comes to the top three, and have a better health grade and health slash depth grade than the Dodgers. I even talked to Emerson Hancock about his new sweeper. I think they're fine when it comes to depth. But by doing it this way, you can actually start to see my groupings really easily. Maybe I undersold the Pirates a little bit and I could even move the Pirates into the top four or top three. But there's a little bit less, they've been tested a little bit less, and I would say

that their top three might be behind the Phillies, Mariners, even the Braves, just because it's Skeens and Co. It's not like their third starter might be, if it's Mitch Keller, then they're behind these other guys. That's an A minus for me in the top three. But it's not just, it started with the Fangraph's SP depth charts, but there was some significant moving around once I did these grades. And yet, if you look at how all of our lists sort of stack up next to each other,

you'll find some of us have got teams in the top 10 that are just not in other people's top 10s. And they might not even be, if we went five deeper, you might still have some omissions and some disagreements along the way. Trevor and I both had the Dodgers at the top, you know, had the Phillies there. You only had the Dodgers down at three. So it's not like it's that big of a difference.

And I think the biggest outlier, maybe on the entire screen, as we look at all these top tens, I think Trevor is more optimistic about the Tigers than just about anybody that I've seen or talked to so far. And the Rays, look at that, the Rays and the Tigers. And the Rays, yeah, the Rays. I was talking to him before we started recording, like usually I'm pretty high on the Rays and I think I like what they're doing, but I think if I did the Eno method of health grades, would you give the Rays an equal health grade

to the Dodgers or a lower health grade to the Dodgers? Cause it's gotta be close. Right? I mean, they have their two Tommy John guy. They actually have a three Tommy John guy. Yeah. To Drew Rasmussen, man. Like I, I continued to be just amazed that he's back.

Yeah. Health is tough. And that's where I, that, and it's very clear that health and like depth was my lowest kind of weighted thing here. Honestly, now I'm really looking at it, the best way to explain the way that I did rate these things is like, if of the teams, if they made the playoffs, who has the best chances with their rotation

to win the World Series? Like that's really kind of what it is in my head. And it's like, the Tigers are in there because they have Tarek Schubel, but I was telling Derek before we started, if Tarek Schubel. But I was telling Derek before we started, if Tarek Schubel got hurt, they go to like 25. So like, but he won the Cy Young and he is literally that bonafide, like we win today.

Like we're gonna win. Like a game we can count on. Not as he gonna cover it, we're gonna win the game. And that is exciting. And I think Flaherty going back is a good quality choice. And then I'm really, I think I'm getting really, I think I'm over getting super excited about Jackson Job. And also what I'm seeing out of Casey Mize.

So the question marks that were there before spring started are a little bit clearer for me. And both of those guys have looked good. Like they've the changes, the changes they've made and the step that Job has taken and the changes that Mize is making, they look like they are starting to kind of make, they could pan out and they, these guys could be weapons as opposed to like,

kind of being like, oh, who knows? And that just kept happening everywhere. They just, that happened everywhere. Same with, but you mentioned the Rays. It's like, who wouldn't want McClanahan, Rasmussen, Taj Bradley, but at the same time, like, the all three of those guys- You didn't say my favorite guy, Pepeo.

And Pepeo, but like you're also like, but it's also just as likely that all four, none of those four guys hit a hundred innings. So like, you have to like, are you just gonna assume everyone's gonna stay healthy? Are you gonna assume everyone's gonna get hurt? Or are you gonna do something in the middle? And I just kind of assume everyone's gonna be healthy

because that's what I prefer to think because I'm a pitcher. Yeah, right. I mean, I also think the Tigers have an element of what I was talking about with the pirates where it's like skeins and co and it's a scubal and co. And I did some dreaming for the pirates where I think Jared Jones, uh, with the sinker this year, you know, I was going to take a big step forward. Um, and I like some of their depth pieces that may not even make the opening day roster a lot, you know, in Bubba Chandler and I like Thomas Harrington.

So I think that they go really deep, um day roster a lot, you know, in Bubba Chandler and I like Thomas Harrington. So I think that they go really deep, um, with players that could make that leap the same way you're talking about the Tigers. I think I was turned off a little bit when I looked at the Tigers at Olson and, um, I'm not as big on Flaherty and, you know, some of them, the guys that are in there right now sort of looking at what they've done in the past and yes, I am trying to project the future but I

Kind of want to see a little bit more before I put them in there You know what I mean? Like I and I fall in love with Casey Meyers of different like three million different times And so, you know, this that's, I think that was my personal foible with, I did have the Tigers like 11 or something. So it's not like I had them way down, but that's when I was looking at the Tigers versus the Padres, for example,

I was like the Padres have guys with proven track records and I love Dylan Cease and I love you Darvish and I love Michael King. And it's like that's three guys that can, yes you might lose your game one against the Tigers but you'd probably, if you were evenly matched otherwise you'd win games two and three with the other guys. And so that's why the Padres made it on and the Tigers didn't basically. I think the Rangers might be a team

we should discuss a little bit. You know, had him eighth, Trevor didn't have him in his group. I had him up there because I think when I'm looking at a rotation, I do look for that playoff ceiling. I think I might have too much confidence in Jacob deGrom's twice repaired UCL just being fine.

He's a day-to-day with a stomach virus right now. So if you saw a day to day next to his name or a red flag when you're drafting, it's not because he's hurt, it's because he's sick. He'll be fine. Probably in a couple of days. Jake, just be sick and don't tell anybody. Like, it's a funny thing with Jake.

Just, he's like, I'm not feeling so good. I'm like, oh, you're not feeling good, Jake? We would just give him crap all the time. I also wonder though, if you're on the Rangers beat and you see DeGrom's not there on any particular day, you're probably asking some questions about it. Right? Like that's just a natural reflex given how the last year's gone. Yeah. I mean, it was a hard one to rank because, um, you know, not, if we have

this a little bit of a playoff focus, then, you know, not only is there how many innings is DeGrom going to throw up it like when will he throw them and will he be available at the right time, but the reason they they got on for me was I am excited about Kumar rocker and Jack lighter and I think that. I think that, you know, I'm not sure that they could step into de Grom shoes, but they could provide like, he evolved. He's like a pretty steady number two type, even in a playoff situation. He's played, he's pitched big, big games in the playoffs. And you wouldn't get a de Grom type number one, but you know, rocker or lighter, if everything clicks in the right way, do have the ceilings of number one starters. And so there's definitely like this universe where de Grom is healthy in the right places,

Ivaldi is steady Eddie all the way through, and one or both of those guys breaks through and it is the best rotation baseball. Like that's one of the outcomes for the Rangers this year. I think they continue to be built on a wider range of outcomes because of the health grades and even because of the development, banking on the development of Rocker and or Leiter to take that much of a step using that Trevor, you know, who are the three playoff starters method, you're kind of saying, okay, they got two, but there's three would be a question mark.

And then you look at the lineup and say, well, they can, they can hit their way out of that problem, out of that weakness. That's what makes this team really dangerous, right? It could be a top five lineup again this year because they've added to it. They've got a couple of young guys that have broken through in Langford and Carter, top to bottom, a very complete group and actually very healthy. Not a lot of red ink when you look at that Rangers depth chart for the position player group either.

So I think that's how you sort of like talk yourself into this team being maybe more complete than it actually is. But who do you like as their number three? If you had to project it today, we get to October, the Grom and Ivaldi are healthy. They're the game one and game two starters. Who is most likely to be their third best starter

out of the current guys on the roster? Is it John Gray? Is it great? Could be. I mean, that's what that's chalk. I'm tempted to go with one of the young guys though. You think you think it's more likely that one of rocker or lighter is that guy for them? Yeah.

Yeah. I almost think you have to believe that to rank them higher. I think, yeah, I don't think he passes the necessarily three times to the order stuff because of some of the shapes of his pitches, but Kumar rocker is my answer. He could, he could definitely go out and blow the doors off a team for like four innings and they might, might be careful with him the third time through with some lefties because of he's got that kind of sinker is shape.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I think Kumar Rocker, I pick for the third guy. Gray is more of a, I think a guy who gets you there than a guy who you use when you're there. Yeah. And he's like, uh, he's like a long guy coming in when the game either gets out of hand or either way. Um, you're you tandem in with rocker.

I would agree with that. I'm interested to see what, uh, if, if lighter is able to have an effective third pitch, I think that's what he's missing. Um, I mean, he's gone five now. Well, but he is, he's still got three other pitches that exist. Um, and I'll tell you one thing, if you go throw him in the eighth or ninth inning right now, he's probably pretty good, but that's not what they want out of him.

But yeah, I'd say Rockers probably more, it's weird to say this, but he's more of the starting pitcher right now. Yeah. It's weird, cause Malley just went down again and Bradford had a, correct a correct. He had a MRI recently. So it's like they just, there's so much injury there. It's, it's. Dunning is pretty capable. I don't really like Dunning,

but Dunning is capable depth. Like that's, that's a pretty high end like six starter type. He's definitely good enough to help you through the regular season. And then the guy that you're not using nearly as much in October, with all due respect to Dane Dunning, help you through the regular season and then the guy that you're not using nearly as much in October. Yeah. With all due respect to Dane Dunning. I feel, it feels kind of mean to talk about a player that way, but it's, it's usage.

It's just what rosters are kind of designed to do, right? The roster gets a little tighter once you get to that part of the calendar. I thought it was interesting that the Diamondbacks popped really on all of our lists. We put the Red Sox in the same place. All of us. It's so weird. Yeah.

It was the only, the only thing I think we agreed on in terms of placement was the Red Sox are sixth, a little lower than where they come out by war, but the D-backs, I think they were one of those teams that would have been on the fringe last year before adding Corden Burns. Where do we have the D-backs? You've got them sixth, seventh. You have them seventh, Trevor's got them third, I have them fifth. So.

That's fairly good agreement, I guess. Yeah. I mean, on aggregate, they're a top five rotation. How much of that was the addition of burns? Just like thinking about how much depth they have now. And Trevor, you have no pirates. Yeah. Okay.

So I got to be very clear tied in the 11th. The Braves, the Pirates, the Podraves. Oh, you have the Braves either. But that's the thing. Why the Braves, the Pirates, the Padres. Oh, you're the Braves either. But that's the thing. Explain yourself. Why no Braves? You get to Schwellenbach and then who's the other two? So it's like, I like those three guys.

And also having played against Reynaldo Lopez quite a bit, he threw really well last year, had an amazing year. I don't think he's gonna repeat that same year. I think he's gonna be good. And then DVR was talking, and I were talking about this too, Strider changes everything. Like whenever he comes back, then I'm like, oh, take your fourth spot.

Like it's just gonna slide right down. Honestly, on my list, the Yankees, I got a kick out of there, I think, completely. I wanna swap them with the Padres, cause they're just in a better position at the moment. But Braves, they're all right there, like, hey, what about us? Because I'm like, I mean, you have the reigning Cy Young

winner, you got to be in the list. But it's thin. So I kept getting hit with this, I like the three, but it's a thin, thin list after that. Or just a lot of question marks. There are options, but list after that. Or just like a lot of question marks, there are options, but the guys that they're gonna try out there haven't had a ton of big league success yet

and have had cups of coffee. And that's why mine's not in there. But I have the, go to the Diamondbacks, I mean, Corbin Burns, Galen, and Merrill Kelly have been like maybe the most just consistent three dudes. They're, they're up there with the POT fillies and the consistency of the top three, in my opinion, like if I want stoic dudes just going out there and doing

what they do, the, uh, the, the diamond backs first fillies, like that would be the least expressions on pictures faces that you've ever seen in a series. And then I like that. Jordan Montgomery just needs to get any semblance of old form at all and be the five guy. Like, you know, like they have options. It is kind of interesting to have Jordan Montgomery, Eduardo Rodriguez, and Ryan Nelson,

none of who, like, I think anybody on the show might be like, oh, that's a great pitcher. That's going to be amazing. But like, to have those three as your kind of four through six is, that's not bad. Yeah. Eduardo Rodriguez, when he pitches, he is the same dude every time you pitch.

Like, I'm just talking about inconsistency-wise. They have so many consistent options that if they are cooking, doing well, and like the, their, their version of themselves, every single day, they could have a dude who's super hyper consistent that they can know what to expect. I love that. I think that's really important. I think they're low key closer to the Phillies than I would have expected before going into this exercise because of their depth.

The big difference for me between the two and why I've got the Phillies ahead of the Diamondbacks is that next guy up that they're going to lean on at some point, Andrew Painter, that's just better than anything the Diamondbacks have in that depth group, even though their depth groups are both very good. I mean, you could see Painter as the Phillies' third best starter behind Wheeler and Nola. That would not be surprising once he's up and in that rotation. And a lot of teams just don't have a guy that's that good. A lot of teams that are that good don't have another guy

to add to the mix, right? So I think that's one thing about the Phillies that almost gets a little underrated is it's not just the guys that are there right now. It's that they have that special talent coming off of Tommy John surgery that should be there for half or two thirds of the season. I have a I have a nomination for team oatmeal. Team Oatmeal. Rotation Oatmeal. Yeah. Let's throw it up again. I think you'll see it. I think you'll see it. My 10. Trevor doesn't

have them and DVR doesn't DVR is on nine. That's team oatmeal right there. The twins. There's not, they, I can see why maybe Trevor didn't put them in there because if you do the top three thing, they aren't really there. They're top three, you know, the top three can bang, but they're not going to bang against Zach Wheeler and Aaron Nola. You know what I mean? Like,

and it's always been that way. I just want to be very clear. It's always been that way. It's never been be very clear. It's always been that way. It's never been anything other than that. Maybe they'd you on Santana for a bit, but that was in Larianna, but that that's it's all that's how they put together their starting rotations. And, but they got pretty good depth. I really liked Zemi Matthews. I've liked David Festa.

Like, so they have the next guy up is great. They have some load them guys like seemimeon Woods Richardson throws 90 poo, but like, you know, he has a really wide arsenal. He's kind of interesting. You know, if Joe Ryan is healthy, he can, he, he could be an ACE that won't, won't be an ACE with maybe a capital a, if you're like a small ACE group, then he won't be your ACE, but if you're like, uh, there are 30 aces kind of guy, then like he'll be an ace. You know what I mean?

Like Allen dice. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, they all like, and they do interesting things with like, um, with, uh, with pitches, I think, I think I was just talking to somebody. I think the twins don't get enough credit among the pantheon of great pitching development outfits. of credit among the pantheon of great pitching development outfits.

We do try to give them credit here, but Josh Kalk is one of the greats of our time in terms of pitching development, one of the smartest guys. And they've done great things with biomechanics. They were early kinetrax adopters. They've really done really interesting things there. And I don't think people give them enough credit. And so I'm glad to see that we got,

I'm really surprised that the one guy who didn't put the twins in the top 10 used to pitch for them, but that's all right. It's just starting pitching. I'm very aware of how they do their starting pitching. Yeah. I think it also speaks to the lack of separation from about, yeah, pick six on a list like this

down to 16 to 18. You can kind of say the beauty's in the eye, the beholder, like how optimistic do you want to be on the projections? Do you want to see the best versions of Pablo Lopez showing up? If you do that, then they have an ace. I think you can look at the depth

and kind of one through three, they do look close to the top end rotations. They're just a half notch on the dial worse each spot, where if you match them up against the teams ahead of them in a playoff series, you'd say, yeah, they're slight underdog, slight underdog, slight underdog, even though they wouldn't be. It wouldn't be overmatched. You'd say that could be fine. They'd win one or two of those games.

You know what I mean? Like slight underdogs win games, you know, so they, they wouldn't be overmatched and you wouldn't be like, oh, they went over three, you know. Yeah. So I think it's a, it's a good rotation. It was the Yankees. Right.

I mean, that's been, that's been the past with the two teams that I had that just barely didn't make the list. Um, there was actually a pretty clear marker. And I know this was a subjective exercise the way I did it with the letter grades. But the Tigers and Reds fell off for me.

And the reason they did was they had nothing on their list that was higher than a B. The closest was the Reds. Stuff grade was like a B plus. But they also had a C plus health rating. So, you know, when I average out the Tigers and Reds, I get more like a BB minus. And the twins for me were BB plus where, you know, I give them B for stuff grade.

I give them, especially since some of their stuff, you know, seems to stymie stuff grades, you know? So they get a B for kind of smartness and stuff. B for top three and B plus for health. So, you know, I think it's, that's exactly what oatmeal is. Yeah, yeah. The twins being oatmeal, not a huge surprise.

Trevor also had the Astros in his group. He felt, they felt just short on each of Milas and Ino's list. I feel like that's the one that I'm least confident in leaving out at the moment, just because Fromber Valdez, one of the more underrated starters in baseball, Hunter Brown pitched like an ace from Mayon last year. Spencer Arragedi was interesting in the second half. Throwing a sinker now, and that could be the exact same thing that Hunter Brown did because they were beating up Arragedi's foreseam even though it was good by stuff models.

If he becomes the new Hunter Brown, like watch out. René Blanco was a great story last year and pitched a little better than people realize even beyond the no-hitter. Hayden Wazneski has really interesting stuff. You're putting that guy in the five spot while you wait for Luis Garcia, Lance McCullers, and Christian Javier to work back. Christian Javier says he wants to come back in the second half. Yeah. Yeah. So your six, seven and eight are all hurt right now.

So if you have injuries or significant injuries in the first half of the season, that's going to be the problem. But that top five, that's a good top five. Yeah. That's, that's where they landed. I mean, I just, at this point, the betting against those guys until they don't make the playoffs or something, it's gonna be really hard to do. So it's like, it's just like Framber is, he just is the same every, every day.

Hunter was really, really good last year after he went on the sinker. Arrogant. He's doing it. And, and then Blanco, Blanco was not just pretty good, he was really good the whole year. Like he was exceptionally good. So I was like, this guy's way better

than I thought he would be, especially this late. Like he's older, doing it right now is crazy. And he's got a really good arsenal that he, I mean, it's just the Astros thing. He's just like the next guy's up, he stepped in and now he's one, doing it right now is crazy. And he's got a really good arsenal that he, I mean, it's just the Astros thing. He's just like the next guy's up, he stepped in and now he's one of their dudes. So they're just consistent again. And I'm just like, I'm not ready to count them out yet

out of the top 10. So here's a random kind of would you rather question. Cause I think the projections sort of agree on regressing both of these guys, but who do you trust more to come close to repeating what they did in 2024 within a reason or who do you think is just better in 2025, Ronaldo Blanco or Ronaldo Lopez? Oh, I knew you were going there. I'll go with Lopez.

You're going Lopez. Okay. Any particular reason? Um, Ronaldo Blanco is a change up first guy. And, uh, so I don't know that I trust the results on the slider and the command on the slider. And he was also kind of predictable. He went to the slider a lot in two accounts and stuff.

And I think that there's a hitter adjustment that could be made to the way he pitched last year. Okay. I think that's reasonable. I mean, two more ticks on the fast ball for Lopez is probably one of the things I'm looking at and saying, if they're both going to be a little more hittable this year, you know, the magnitude of being hittable is going to be worse when you're averaging 93, six on the fast ball the way Blanco did a year ago.

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I would say if you're better pitches, you're like with Lopez with the slider versus Blanco with the change. I would, I would agree with that and I would say if you're better pitches yours like with Lopez with the slider versus Blanco with the chair, right? Yeah, I would lean on the slider a little bit more because it's what I'd be I know your best was ahead it as well pitch your best pitch was a change up, right? Yeah I mean, I didn't want to say I know it's like I that's a bias of mine It's like I'm gonna take the guy with the breaking ball. I didn't want to when when the breaking ball is by far to their best off speed offering and hit and Blanco's change up is by far his bet.

Like it's a lot. Sliders is to show me type of thing. Command pitch. I would say mine were closer or at least I thought of my slider as an option, especially when it turned into a sweeper. Then I was like, this is a swing and miss. I can do this. But before, you're right. I was change up for that.

The other thing that Trevor said that was really great there was, seems like maybe a small thing. But he's saying, I'm not ready to bet against it. I just literally was talking to an executive. And I was like, it seems like we were talking about the Astros R&D and the whole, the whole brain drain that's happening in Houston and the whole new direction and do they have enough sort of institutional inertia when it comes to the smart things they were doing or is it running out? And he was like, every time I go down this road, you're going down right now.

You know, like early last year, you know, when they signed Jose Breu, every time I've thought, okay, this is where it ends. I've been wrong. Yep. They've made us look silly on this show, at least, at least a couple of times already, just saying, ah, the dynasty's over, especially first half of last year around may kind of felt like things were falling apart quickly. Not so fast.

So a tough organization to bet against even as things continue to change in Houston. Do you have any teams you'd left off and maybe they weren't even like the next five in that you kind of worry like, Oh, I could be wrong about this group. Cause I caught one along the way. I was looking at the Giants and I thought, there's a world in which this Giants rotation is a top 10 rotation this year. You know, you go Webb, Verlander, Ray,

and whatever order at the top, probably Webb, Ray, Verlander, doesn't matter. But those three are a good first three. Hicks is still interesting. We've talked about him a lot on the show. I think we talked about Harrison and Birdsong a couple of weeks ago. Landon Root might be the five to start the year.

Keaton Wins healthy right now. Like they might have eight quality options. They have really great depth. Because Carson Wisonhunt, you didn't even say him yet. And yeah, Carson Wisonhunt's another guy waiting in the wings that could be used for some start at some point this year too. I think they're lacking a little bit in aceness.

A little. Is Birdsong ever going to be like an ace? Is he really going to, is it going to click? It could, of course it could. Keaton wins fastballs, not amazing. It's not an ace's fastball. He's going to be a guy who's good, but I don't know if, I mean, he could be Joe Ryan at some point.

Could they oatmeal their way to be the twins? Could they be the eighth to be the twins? Could they be the eighth best rotation in baseball because of the way they're built? Like, I think that's a possibility that has sort of sprung up going through this exercise for me. I think, you know, looking at Trevor's analysis of the Rays, I was like,

that's the one I was kicking myself. That's the one I think I'll be wrong on. I think the Rays should be a top 10 team. I don't know who to kick out, you know, to put them in. That's the issue. I have the Cubs in mind, but that's just because Imanaga has all the experience and there's no reason to think that he won't be good again this year.

And then I love Justin Steele. I think he's wildly underrated and not talked about enough. And Jameson Talion was rock solid last year. Rock solid. Did a great job. So I'm like, and he's experienced. I'm like, that's a good top three. And then they have a bunch of different moving pieces with Assad and all these other guys who have experience and can pitch the last couple spots. And I'm like, maybe they sneak in about, just because I feel like there's more options there than the Braves. but I'm like, ah. So, but I agree wholeheartedly on the Giants

because I, even from the playoff three, the top three context, I'm like, Logan Webb is gonna go out and, you know, aggressiveness and playoff sometimes, some guys just sinker guys just get ground ball, ground ball, ground ball, and it's going super fast and you can't, either get in a groove and you can't get anything going but you see it And then you got Justin Verlander if he's like found something new adds a some something that goes in like I see

Some sort of change up or a sinker or something and he starts to do that again wouldn't put it past him He's he's appeared again a couple times in his career. He could do it again He's also talking about Getting back to his 20, I think he's doing back to his 2019 mechanics. And he said he had a neck problem last year that didn't let him kind of be as fluid as he wanted. So maybe it's just a mechanical thing

that can be there for him too. But like, who could ever count out just, it's the same thing with Scherzer. I'm like, I just can't bet against him because that'll just, you know, I'll be wrong. I know I will. And then Robbie Ray, I know he hasn't thrown a lot, but he's one of Cy Young, like his ceiling,

like these guys' ceiling, if they're all at their ceilings at the right time, you're like, they might be the best. Like I'll take these guys against anybody if they're all cooking. But the chance of that happening with Robbie Ray being, you know, in his mid thirties and then Verlander being like 40, like the chances of that happening are low. But if they do, now they're serious,

but you just can't count it. The question marks are too big. So you just throw them back. They can cover themselves pretty well though, if those guys get hurt, yeah. Yeah. I'll also call back to Atlanta. I have them second on my list because Strider is probably

going to return end of April, early May. If you're only going to take Strider out for one month of the season and you go sale Strider, Schwellenbach, Lopez Holmes, I think that's a phenomenal top three. It is as good almost as any top five you're going to find other than the Dodgers and maybe other than the Mariners. And then the next three up for this team, AJ Smith, Shavar, Bryce Elder, Ian Anderson, they're not bad as six through eight starters, right? They have their flaws, but I think this is still like low key, a really high ceiling Atlanta group. They could be bad.

Yeah. Oh, we've seen, I've seen bad out of those three guys. Yeah. You can get worse. When it was bad, it was, they were bad. They were reaching, they're searching. Well Yankees, Yankees 6-3-8 is worse. And Elders are more important than Spring either.

Oh, Yankees 6-3-8 is worse. It is worse. Well, of the 6-3-8 for the Yankees, I'm like, the only name I know is Carlos Carrasco. So. Right. I don't know, who are the other two? So he's like, complete unknown.

Drew Hackenberg is a sleeper I kind of stumbled into doing some other research for one of the sicko dynasty leagues I play in. And I think he's another depth guy that could end up getting some innings for Atlanta this year and people are going to say, who the hell is Drew Hackenberg? And you know, he's actually going to be useful

for them. But any other thoughts on these rankings before we, we move on? They're sure to be wrong. They're sure to be wrong. Disagree accordingly, or just make your own cases. Make your own top 10 first before you pick ours apart. I think that's the only rule for the criticism, right?

Do the exercise yourself and then come at us and tell us what you like or what you don't like about our processes here. Do that in the Discord. We'll have a little chat in there later on today. All right, one more thing chat in there later on today. All right. One more thing I wanted to get to today. Unique processes, things that are happening in spring that you're hearing

about that you've seen that teams are trying to utilize new tools, new tricks, new anything. What have you seen? What have you heard, you know, that has kind of caught your attention? Uh, well, I was talking to one pitching coach and two things came up. One was, um, just a really aggressive pairing of which side of the rubber they were on with, with certain biomechanical like issues or command issues, but mostly, um, like, you know, thinking about it in different ways with, um,

you know, using trajectory to like make the case to the pitcher. So this one pitching coach was like, Hey, I moved, use the trajectory. And I moved you to the part of the rubber that I want to move you to. And I just want you to stand in against yourself and see your slider from this viewpoint, as opposed to the viewpoint that you're at right now. Um, so using trajectory for pitching development was, was one of them. Um, and then the other, that same pitch coach was talking about using music and bullpens, uh, to improve or to, to adjust the tempo of his pitchers.

So, um, you know, just, uh, just the idea that some pitchers need to kind of, um, uh, get like, uh, like I was just talking pitchers need to kind of get like, I was just talking to Tobias Meyers, it's like, you know, move the tempo up, like want to Tobias Meyers said he used to do this thing where he pumped three times before he went into, like when he did his full windup, he would pump three times or he'd pump multiple times. And he said, all I was doing was pumping, was thinking about all the things that could go wrong. That's a bad cue. So he's like, he told Chris Hook that and Chris Hook was like, okay,

let's just take the pump out. You're from this branch. Let's not do that anymore. Yeah. That's amazing. Chris Hook is a phenomenal pitching coach. I have never been a pitching coach in my life. Never pitched above Little League.

I think I would have made the same suggestion. And he said, Hey, maybe don't do that. Just see what happens when you don't. See if your brain's a little happier. But the other pitching coach was talking, and I think about like, Hey, maybe don't do that. Just see what happens when you don't see if your brain's a little happier. But the other picture goes, just talking. And I think about like, he was saying that he thinks that like, uh, DJ shadow is like the perfect, uh, running, uh, music because, um, you know, that works for him, but I've been working on, you know, shortening my stride and I've been trying to, uh, get to maybe

like 170 strides per minute in my in my running and so I think DJ shadows too few BPM I get to more upbeat like I need like you can actually match your BPM to your strides per minute and start to oh I need something that's like 165 170 beats per minute So now you're talking about definitely more upbeat music that you're looking for and so he was taking home the same thing in bullpens where they blast music and they change the music depending on what they're kind of want out of the tempo. Some guys need to slow down.

Some guys are too aggressive, too fast. So I did want to ask Trevor about like, tempo just specifically, what that means to you, that word? And like, did you ever have to find your tempo? like was that a big part of becoming a major league pitcher? Oh, yeah Tempo is Wildly important. I think that Honestly, I didn't I'm kind of sad that I'm learning about this now or not learning about it or thinking about it I guess as an option

But it became wildly apparent when I had to do the work with the pitch clock that my tempo was not fast enough. And so I love that. I think that everyone, he's getting into groove, very settling in. This is all tempo related. A lot of times it's a, it's like a subconscious cue that you feel like you're in a rhythm in the game. It's, we literally call it in a rhythm.

So you might as well listen to music is literally rhythm. So attaching those things together is important. And even if you think about how guys pick their walkout songs, it's, it's they're matching it to their style of pitching. They really are like the way that they approach going out there is what they choose for their music. And that's why I always had like, coheed and camry out there,

because I just wanted to be like, I gotta get up and get myself going. Like energy. And so I love this. And by the way, you know, if you need recommendations for BPMs to run to, Chasing Status, Drum and Bass, 170. Nice. They got you. And they got That's great. Their new album's awesome.

So I think you're like, uh, so yeah, I think this is, I think it's an awesome idea. Um, a lot of guys listening to music, you know, the, the, there's that story about Max Scherzer coming out in the flight suit and Kenny Loggins, danger zone and making people sign waivers to watch them throw bullpens. I don't think I knew that story. You don't know that story. Uh, and making people sign waivers to watch him throw bullpens. I don't think I knew that story. You don't know that story. Uh, dubstep. I know that he puts like dubstep in his, in his ears.

Of course he does. But George probably throws like with headphones in, but like put it on a speaker, get the big light up speaker from radio shack or whatever and blast it. Um, right. He did that in Minnesota. Yeah. And they had a like velvet, they had a velvet rope. You had to sign the Dendy. It was just like a joke, like a, like a little clipboard and like sign it. So like David Price would go sign it and go watch them throw. And remember they, the pitching coach used to do like the gun thing,

like he'd do all the things when he hit the spots and they do it together. Like that was those was on the internet. Uh, pitching ninja would get all those things of them both doing it when he warmed up. and they do it together. Like that was those rules on the internet. Pitching Ninja would get all those things of them both doing it when he warmed up. But that was his whole thing there. So like people have been using music, but thinking about it this way, to try to get yourself, I'm trying to sync up to this,

I think is a brilliant way to do it, because it's passive and you can just naturally, people naturally do that. I think people naturally can like pick up on a song. So that's a great idea. Yeah, why do you think tempo is so important? I think, you know, some part of it is like, you have to get your T release point at the right time, but there's also sort of pitch to pitch rhythm.

That's a little bit different. Like there's tempo within your delivery as a mechanical aspect, right? But then there's also sort of like, get the ball. You see people do different things. Get the ball. Either there's a guys who get the ball, get right back on the rubber, bang, bang, bang.

There's other guys who get the ball, walk around, you know, two outs, two outs, you know, get on the rubber. You know, so there's different tempos between pitches and different tempos. Like when it comes to like actually bring the arm up, do the thing, do that thing, you know? Yeah. The other thing that I saw that Tobias Meyers

had this thing that was a, it looked like the body blade, which is like the kind of the, like a, it's like a, a stick that you, that you. It's hard to explain. I think about, I explained it like, uh, it's a stick that's kind of wobbly and you kind of like wobble it and wobbling. It makes you use a little small muscles. So he had something that looked like a body blade, but it had a big orange tennis ball on the end. Uh, and it was a little bit more whippy than it was. Uh, it was kind of like, um, yeah, it's kind of like almost like a lasso, but it was a little bit more whippy than it was. It was kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like,

almost like a lasso, but it was a stick. So basically what he did, what he wanted to do was whip that stick around so that the orange ball, like he looked like a hitter. It would look like a, it literally looked like a hitting drill, like where he just gets into like a hitting stance and he like whips that thing and it was for his blocking leg.

And he said that, you know, doing this really helped him block and, uh, block in a way where he falls towards the plate as opposed to blocking in a sort of, uh, circular manner where he's going to block and fall towards. Yeah. Is it good? Yeah. Like he, with this drill, it kept him from going around the block where he falls it off to first this one, like sort of let him block and then he go, yeah, like he, with this drill, it kept him from going around the block

where he falls off to first this one, like sort of let him block and energy goes towards the plate. So, uh, he, he was just carrying and like, he, he was attached to him, dude. Like he was just like walking around the clubhouse with this thing. So he said that was a big thing from Chris hook. So, um, you know, there's definitely all sorts of gadgets. I guess the core velocity belt was a big thing from Chris Hook. So, you know, there's definitely all sorts of gadgets. I guess the core velocity belt was a big thing a while back.

Oh, I use that like crazy. Yeah. They still use it a lot because it pulls you down. It's the same thing. It pulls you down the mountain. I think that what you're talking about with the reason that tennis ball there too is orange is because when it streaks through the air, you can see it. You can see the path of how it's coming out of your hand.

So you can get like that feedback of, this is how the ball would come out of my hand at the same time. So I can like see what the ball flight would be. It's like tricking your brain into feeling what your leg's doing the right way with what you see when you're throwing the ball without doing it, without having to do it.

The core velocity belt though really helped me with the block. It's interesting about the block too I didn't block at the same time like verlanders got the perfect block. Everyone uses him as the example He blocks and then he releases the ball like a like a catapult like perfectly that's perfect about him. That makes sense Oh, it's like if you think about it as verlander like a perfect like a perfect, all the like, why all the geeks are perfect. His energy's all towards the plate. It's like all towards the plate. His timing's perfect. Blocks really hard, yeah.

Yeah, and that's what he fixed when he fixed his hip thing in like, whatever, 2014. That's what he was having trouble doing. And then he figured it out and then he became back and was the guy. I was a long stride guy. My block was literally, like I was, I extended my leg and was the guy. I was a long stride guy. My block was literally, like I extended my leg through throwing the ball,

so I blocked after I released, because my extension was so far. Which is not what you're supposed to do. Which, well, it can be if you have extremely strong quads, but that's the problem. Not everyone does. I'm so quad dominant that that was something that I could physically do, but no one else could do it.

Everyone's like, I don't know how you do this. I'm like, well, you should see my quads. I thought blocking was supposed to send. They don't move at all. It's kind of a problem, guys. So this is like a. I thought biomechanically the blocking was supposed to send, it sends energy back up,

you're like, and then helps you rotate around it. Yeah, it's supposed to be a smooth transfer up the, yeah, it's supposed to be the smoothest version of a transfer in your body. But when you, that's how I developed my mechanics. I didn't have the block, and so that everything else kind of changed slightly to make it smooth, even though the timing isn't exactly the same,

but I can still generate force that way. And then my body compensated. So like my quads are, to this day, I wake up every morning like, oh my goodness. This is crazy how tight these are. I can't even, there's tests you can do that are, to tell you how tight your quads are, and mine are to the point where I'm like,

I can't even get to 180 degrees. I can't even straighten my leg. Like that. They naturally go up. Like I can't put my legs on the ground straight and sit up straight. Yeah. I can't really do that.

I immediately peek my knees because my quads are so tight. But that's also what I want me to do when I pitched. So it's interesting. I talked about your theory of being like hypo-mobile and you're hypo-mobile and you always spot the hyper-mobile guy. So I talked about that with Brian Wu and I attributed it to you and I asked him about that and he said that he had spent his coming up, he'd spent all his time working on being

flexible, to the point where he is super flexible. coming up, he'd spent all this time, you know, working on being, uh, flexible to the point where he is super flexible. Um, and so now he has to go the other direction and do things like stand on those half yoga balls, you know, with weights. Yeah. The Bose's he has a stand on the Bose's with one leg, you know, he has to do a lot of stability and core stuff where he's trying to, uh, tighten up. Uh, he's trying to, to, to firm up.

Um, you know, because he was so, he's been, he comes from a more, uh, more flexible way, you know, Tally Duffy had to do that and Taylor Rogers had to do it. And they'd always like workout two to three times a week. And I'd be like, why are you guys working out? They're like, dude, we have to, we're not just big, tight monsters like you that don't lift weights and are the same strength. Like, and I'm like, good point.

And they're like, and we get, we get loosey goosey. Like, you know, you want your rubber bands to be taut still, but you don't want them to get, the longer they get, the harder it is to create separation. It's so funny you mentioned Brian Wu too, cause I saw a picture. You told me this yesterday, you met when we were getting ready for the show. and then I saw a picture of him talking who it was

Randy Johnson was talking to him Logan Gilbert and Bryce Miller and he's standing there at camp that same day and he's like in his flip-flops Brian Wu is and is it like he's standing with his knees locked and is like neat is like knees are inside of his like kind of like Josh Beckett used to remember him with the oh yeah yeah yeah farther his knees were inside so his, kinda like Josh Beckett used to, remember him with the, his feet would go out a little farther, his knees were inside, so he kinda like a little bit duck-footed.

I was like, oh, yeah, that's what hypermobile guys have that. Their knees can go past 180 degrees, and he was literally doing it in the picture. I'm like, I look at this guy's knees, and I can see that he's flexible. Oh, and what were you saying? Tell the story really quickly, before we gotta go. Tell the story really quickly about the got to go. Tell the story really quickly about the joke

that someone played with the. Yeah, what's Presley doing? So Presley's hypermobile, I guess. Hypomobile. And it became a joke because Presley was there with Rogers and Duffy as well. All very, they were all different ways hypermobile. One way, one thing that hyper mobile hyper mobile guys have is sometimes

their joints can go past. People used to think it's called being double jointed or whatever. When your kids in reality, like they straighten their arm out and their arm would go past 180 degrees. They go like pass it by so flexible. They're so flexible and uh, Presley's is like almost gross. It goes so far both of his arms. So he can just like do it really fast.

It doesn't hurt him, but it looks gross. So he's lifting weights. We have a new, I think he's the AA strength coordinator. First year with the organization, with the twins. And we're in the training room. There's a window into the weight room and Perez goes, watch this, I'm gonna go get him. And he goes in there and he starts,

he takes like 10 pound weights. He starts doing bicep curls, which nobody does. He's just like leaning over. He goes, and you just hear him go, ah, it like stretches his arm out. And it's like, elbow goes way past the thing. And he's like, get help, get help. Scream, the guy's freaking out. He's like hitting on things.

He's like, we need somebody. And everyone's laughing and he doesn't get it. And press is like, press faked broke his own arm to scare the crap out of this guy who was supposed to be watching him. He's got the window, get somebody, he ain't here. Get some help. It literally looked like the scene in Independence Day where the scientist is stuck in with the alien.

Yeah, that's what I'm imagining. It was really funny. Everyone was laughing so hard, because we all knew, but he didn't. So, yeah, really mean, but also welcome to the crew. And then he was our buddy for that on, but we didn't know him very well. So we thought we could.

Well, on that note, I think it's, it's time for us to go. I, there's no way I could top that story. That's phenomenal. Join our discord with the link in the show description. You can find us on blue sky, Trevor's, I am Trevor May that B's got it social. You know, is, you know, saris.bees.com. That social IMDBR.bees.com. That social give us a subscription. If you haven beast got it social, you know, it was you know, Sarah's got beast cuz that social I'm DVR dot B sky dot social give us a subscription

If you haven't got one already at the athletic comm slash rates and barrels gets you the best deal that we have that's gonna do it For this episode of rates and barrels. We're back with you on Friday Thanks for listening He had bigger hams than I thought he would I was looking at his quads, man. Those were prodigious.