Rates & Barrels - Theo's future, Cano's suspension, Arenado trade rumors, and a Thanksgiving draft

Episode Date: November 21, 2020

Eno, Britt & DVR discuss Theo Epstein's future, Robinson Canó's 162-game suspension, trade rumors swirling around Nolan Arenado, and the work ahead for Kim Ng with the Marlins' current roster before holding their first annual Thanksgiving sides and appetizers draft. Rundown 1:52 What’s Next for Theo Epstein? 10:12 What’s Next for the Cubs? 16:46 2021 Unknowns 21:33 Robinson Canó’s Positive PED Test 33:27 Nolan Arenado Trade Fits 49:14 Kim Ng’s Path Forward with the Marlins 56:40 Thanksgiving Day Sides & Apps Draft Follow Eno on Twitter: @enosarris Follow Britt on Twitter: @Britt_Ghiroli Follow DVR on Twitter: @DerekVanRiper e-mail: [e-mail] Subscribe to The Athletic for just $1/week: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Forget the pressure to be crushing your workout on day one. Just start moving with the Peloton Bike, Bike Plus, Tread, Row, Guide, or App. There are thousands of classes and over 50 Peloton instructors ready to support you from the beginning. Remember, doing something is everything. Rent the Peloton Bike or Bike Plus today at onepeloton.ca slash bike slash rentals. All access memberships separate. Terms apply. Welcome to Rates and Barrels. It is Friday, November 20th.

Derek Van Ryper, Ido Saris, Britt Giroli here with you. On this episode, we discuss Theo Epstein's decision to resign as the Cubs president of baseball operations. We'll talk about what might be next for Theo and what is next for the Cubs. Robinson Cano gets suspended for the entire 2021 season. Just imagine flushing a $24 million salary down the drain for a year because of a positive steroid test. We'll discuss Nolan Arenado trade rumors, some of the unknowns for the 2021 season, which have real baseball implications and fantasy implications,

and stick around because we'll have our first annual Thanksgiving Sides 21 season, which have real baseball implications and fantasy implications. And stick around because we'll have our first annual Thanksgiving sides and appetizers draft. Yeah, I'm taking out the ambiguity. I don't want people to say deviled eggs aren't a side DVR, they're an appetizer. We're wiping that out right away. So we're going to

get to that a little bit later on. Well, I didn't know they were on the table. Ew, deviled eggs are gross. Ew. Just leave right now. Deviled eggs are fantastic. You're tipping your hand. Now I know I can wait.

I can sit back a few rounds to get those deviled eggs. You can definitely draft that later in the rounds. I should not have mentioned those. Edo didn't know they were on the board. Britt hates them. So I would have got them with my last pick had I just kept my mouth shut. I'm not even American. This will go really well, I'm sure.

We're playing with a foreigner. Some kind of sausages and rum-soaked plantains as a side. Well, let's kick things off with the Theo Epstein news. He steps away as the Cubs president of baseball operations. And it's interesting because John Greenberg had the piece about the letter that Theo sent to the rest of the organization. And he kind of walks through all the different reasons why he was stepping away. And, you know, sometimes those reasons aren't all of the reasons, but they at least shed some light on what he was thinking. And one thing that kind of stood out to me was this idea that he had planned to leave the Cubs within a window of about 10 years. And, you know, I kind of understand the reasoning behind that.

Eventually you want a new challenge. It's good for people in other positions to move up and take on that opportunity. And then you yourself could go find a new frontier. And everyone's speculating, oh, what's Theo Epstein going to do next? He suggested that this will not be his last job in baseball. So perhaps after 2021, we'll see him come back with some other team. But, you know, I see random rumors such as Theo for commissioner. And I think that's probably not going to happen.

Even though that's the type of move that we would like to see, that's not the next step, at least for him. So Britt, I'll start with you. As you saw this news and started to think about what Theo Epstein could do next, did you come up with a sort of obvious path to his next opportunity? I think he's going to own a team. I think, as you mentioned, commissioner would be great, but it's so political, as we know. All the other owners have to vote you in. There's a lot of politics involved. It's not really going to happen, in my opinion.

But I think if you're Theo and you've already done the impossible, you have led the Chicago Cubs to a World Series title. You have really reached the mecca already in GM world. You've really reached the mecca in the whole front office world. You've presided over some really, really good teams. I think the next move, as he has kind of alluded to, is to have more control over the way this game is headed and while i don't think he's going to be commissioner i think it makes the most sense for him to be involved in the day-to-day ownership i think he's going to go i don't know can we call it the derrick

jeter route i mean is that a thing can we call it that but i i do think it's not a former player right it's not a former player but like i do think he's going to be a visible important part. Yeah. The controller it's called or whatever, like the, the, the, the interaction between the ownership group. He probably can't afford to buy a team by himself or anything, but he could be part of an ownership group and be the Derek Jeter for that. And I think that's a really great point to point out is that, you know, the commissioner's job, he works for the owners,

right? He works for the owners, basically. And that's just sort of functionally how it works. And so, you know, there's no avenue for Theo to be the commissioner because, you know, first of all, Manfred's under contract for, you know, four more years. And the way you become commissioner is to kind of either work within MLB's front office or work with the ownership or be an owner even as Bud Selig was. So, you know, it's not he's not in line to be commissioner. But yeah, I think he could be part of an ownership group. And I think, you know, there's another name that comes to mind as to someone who's trying to do the same thing dave dombrowski is in nashville and he's trying to be part of the nashville ownership group um and so maybe we'll find that uh theo is going to move to portland or uh i don't know if i see

him as a charlotte person um are these your next predictions here you knowno? The Portland and Charlotte? Well, I'm working on the story. I'm working on the story. I'm working on the story. We're trying to, I'm trying to take a numbers-based approach to basically sort out the best two spots for expansion. I'm looking at per capita income. I'm looking at population density. And I'm looking at distance from the nearest pro team. And so I'm going to

try and put those three things together to predict or just pick the best spot because the spots right now are Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville, Portland. Those are the kind of finalists as people see it. And I just also wanted to point out that this is a great time for expansion because uh expansion means money in the pockets of the owners they get uh they get an infusion of cash from the expansion the way that expansion works is a new owner pays like 50 billion dollars or something for you know that's not 50 billion that'd be too much but they pay they pay a billion dollars they pay 500 million or there's an expansion fee that they have to pay to get in. And that money would go to all the rest of the owners,

and all the rest of the owners need money right now. In the past, expansion has happened after things like player strikes and things like that. So I think expansion may happen. I think it's on the table. I think the talent pool in baseball can handle it too. We see so many players. I'm looking at Shinsu Chu's name right now, but there's so many players like Chu that could maybe offer a team some production for the next couple of years, but just probably won't get a contract right now. And we, the eighth best reliever on a team right now is throwing 98

miles an hour. So I think that probably we could, we could, we could create two more new bullpens and two more new lineups and it'd be all right. And the, and obviously the players would be okay with that because now you're creating more jobs as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, I like Portland, just a selfish viewpoint.

Have never been there. Would love the excuse to go there Nashville I feel like is probably the most likely right Dombrowski's really been pushing for it I don't think we're itching for another Florida team no please no on Orlando no more Florida anything stop with Florida stuff no more Florida things no more expansion in Florida I like Charlotte Charlotte and the Carolinas don't really have... I'm interested to see what the numbers say about Charlotte versus

Nashville. That's an interesting one for me. Yeah, I'd love to hear what people... If you're listening right now and you have a strong opinion on whether you would attend a game in Orlando or the other cities that you don't mention, please let us know because I feel like Portland, Charlotte,

okay, those all sound great. Charlotte, though, is a little bit of a smaller area, isn't it? Yeah, I'd like to see. Yeah, I'd like to see population density. I'd like to see maybe and per capita income. I'm not even sure how important that is. But I think it is somewhat important. And it may be a kind of tiebreaker you know i think a team would rather that they uh the people around had enough money to buy the jerseys and buy the ticket packages and stuff like that so yeah you know i i don't know the difference i do know that nashville supports an nh to nhl team very fervently i think the predators do well yes and i know players who live down in Nashville.

Davey Martinez actually lives in that area. Caleb Joseph, and they're Predators people, so it is definitely like that. Have you looked into will it infringe on other teams at all? Are you getting into fandom? That's what I'm sort of thinking about with distance from the nearest MLB park.

Right. And they've got a pretty good buffer in Nashville, right? the nearest MLB Park. Right. And they've got a pretty good buffer in Nashville, right? The closest MLB Park there would be Atlanta, I would assume. Yeah, I think so. If you just focus on any one of the stats, you'd be like, distance from MLB Park. Let's put one in Iowa or let's put one in North Dakota. But that's why we're putting in population density

and perhaps per capita income. I guess in that vein, Oklahoma City has been AAA city for a long time. They support the Thunder. Maybe you've got a path to something there as well. But I would assume Portland and Nashville are probably one and two on that list. And the Orlando Dream, which came with the incredible clip art from, oh man, I'm blanking on the guy's name. Remember the proposal though for the team in Orlando?

Oh man. Clip art? It was clip art. It was a do-it-yourself chop job. It was, I'd like to have an MLB team... Graphic design is my passion moment. I'm learning graphic design on the side, so I'm going to make the logo myself. And you know what? Don't do that if you're going to try and get an MLB team. Hire a pro to do that. But as the Cubs go, this is a team that is... They're in a bad spot because their core is mostly approaching free agency. You have Rizzo at the end of 2021 will be a free agent. Chris Bryant's in the final year before he hits free agency here in 2021. The Hayward deal runs through 2023. Darvish runs through 2023. Darvish's deal tapers off, gets a little bit cheaper in the final two years. Hayward's up at $22 million for the final two years of the deal. He's at $21 million this year. So you have two key guys, Bryant and Rizzo.

You have the Kimbrell contract still on the books for another year. And Javi Baez is a free agent after 2021 as well, along with Kyle Schwarber. And then Wilson Contreras becomes a free agent after 2022. So this great core that the Cubs had that was young when they won the World Series is now approaching the point where they're all going to be moving on or a lot more expensive. The only player that they've developed that has a longer-term situation and is pretty good is Ian Happ. Right. Happ will be there for a long time. But you look at this core, and it's old, and they don't seem like a team that wants to spend a lot of money right now,

even though they could spend a lot of money. The farm system's not very good. This looks like a rebuild that Jed Hoyer is now going to oversee. That kind of seems like where they're at. Now, for a team like the Cubs, a rebuild doesn't necessarily take five years because they can fill in some gaps with money eventually, but they should be tearing this down, right?

Am I right to look at this team and say, it's time to start breaking it apart and start trying to put that next good core together? Yeah, I just don't know who has the most value. it's time to start breaking it apart and start trying to put that next good core together, Eno? Yeah, I just don't know who has the most value. I mean, because you're talking about Bryant, Baez, Schwarber, and Rizzo all being free agents at the same time. You're talking about one-year deals. None of them are getting the same sort of banter as a Francisco Lindor. They don't have the same trade value as a Francisco Lindor.

And, you know, maybe they extend one. I don't know who I'd pick. I don't think it'd be Bryant. We've talked about his shoulder. I don't think it'd be Rizzo. He's the oldest of the group. I don't think it's Schwarber with his, you know, his defensive value. His athleticism is all right, but his defensive value I don't think is great.

And Baez, you know, is kind of a, you you know reach outside the zone guy that I don't think I would necessarily be signing so I don't know if I'd sign any of them but do any of them how much trade value do any of them have with one year on their deal like could you do something where you pair Baez and Hayward to get that off the deal and then extend someone else but even who pair Schwarber and Hayward just as a money dump

and then extend Baez that's a possibility I guess but not if it's like a huge long deal I don't want to give Baez like 10 years or something he'd be more of a 5 year guy if you're going to give him a contract extension because of the reach issues that you've talked about.

That offensive profile might not age very well. Even if he's a good defender for most of that contract, you're definitely concerned about how he's going to hit. There are not a lot of old shortstops either, man. Look around the league. Dede Gregorius is the only one over 30. Yeah. Maybe Simmons? Maybe if they're going to make trades

and move some of the guys that are expiring, if you pair Rizzo and Baez together and trade them somewhere else, I think the Cubs are probably better suited to say it's going to be a soft free agent market. A lot of hitters are going to take one-year deals. A lot of pitchers are going to be willing to take one-year deals.

Let's just try and get a few bargain options, make one more run at it, extend qualifying offers, collect a bunch of draft picks, and move on that way. I think that might be the best way to go if you're not able to get what you want

in a trade at this point. Yeah, and Kibai is not even going to get you that much when there's four shortstops. There's the Korean shortstop, and then there's Simmons, and there's Simeon, and there's definitely shortstops out that you could get for real cheap. So maybe buys is better, but he also is going to cost you prospects. I think this is a really bad time specifically to be trying to trade guys on one-year deals

because the whole market is going guys on one-year deals. Because the whole market is going to be one-year deals. Yes. Speaking of a crazy market, tonight is going to be the deadline to add guys to the 40-man roster, which is what I was just typing up. The Nats added two guys. Starting to get some news in, right? Yeah, they added two,

but there's one, two, three, four, five guys on their top 30 prospect list that are not going to be protected. I do wonder once we get to the non-tenders in December and now with these potential Rule 5 guys, how much bargain hunting there's going to be around baseball. And how many roster spots will people have? Because the rosters are going to get smaller, right? And for Rule 5, you need to put them on your roster.

So even a bad team that's rebuilding, how many roster spots will they have? And how do you do a Rule 5 draft when you haven't had eyes on the guy? You don't have any stats. Exactly. Like, I was talking to a guy the other day because, you know, when I, you know, spoiler, teaser alert, we're doing a story about, like, how the hell you go forward from all this. And part of the problem is a lot of teams are going to be hesitant to trade because they haven't seen these guys they can't really

trust the video and as eno and i reported there are about 10 teams that didn't even share video from their alternate training site this year so how do you make those moves yeah um you know and getting back to scouts in right and this is why i lean more towards like what you guys were saying with the cubs like burn it to the studs this is kind of the time to i guess like rebuild quietly and look for the bargains and you know blame covet and cut costs and then in two three years really try to compete um especially if you're if you're in that position to do so um and the cubs kind of are at a crossroads where i think they can certain clubs can't you know the padres aren't gonna burn it down they're they're right at the crossroads where I think they can. Certain clubs can't. You know, the Padres aren't going to burn it down.

They're right at the beginning. But I think if you're a team that's kind of could go one way or the other, why not step back, see what's available, how to set yourself up well. There's going to be a lot of bargains to be had here on this free agent market over the next month or two. And I wonder if there's going to be a lot of guys afraid and eager to take below market deals because they don't want to be free agents in January. Yeah, or free agents into March even. I mean, I just think this market can play really, really slowly. So let's be clear.

When it comes to shipping internationally, can I provide trade documents electronically? Mm-hmm. The answer is FedEx. Okay, but what about estimating duties and taxes on my shipments? Can I provide trade documents electronically? Mm-hmm. The answer is FedEx. Okay. But what about estimating duties and taxes on my shipments? How do I find all the... Also FedEx. Impressive.

Is there a regulatory specialist I can ask about? FedEx. Oh. But let's say that... FedEx. What? FedEx. Thanks.

No more questions. Always your answer for international shipping. FedEx. Where now meets next. The your answer for international shipping. FedEx, where now meets next. The unknowns are a big deal. I mean, we're talking about not knowing if the NL is going to have DHS again. That impacts a player like Delson Cruz. It sounds like he's going to wait to choose a team until that gets clarified. We don't know for sure when the season is going to begin,

if it's still going to be 162 games. Roster sizes are huge with the Rule 5 draft and with figuring out the types of players you're going to add in free agency as well. If you have a bigger roster, versatility is a bit less important. If you have a smaller roster, maybe you want to make sure you have a guy that can play multiple positions or multiple guys on your bench that can play multiple positions. There's rule change things that happen like the extra innings rule changes. We don't know if those carry over. So a ton of things we don't know at this point. That was a question from Doug EZ. How do you plan for the next season if you're an actual GM? But how do

you plan for the fantasy season, not knowing what the rules for the game itself is going to be? Take your best guess, I guess, is the way to go right now. If you're inside baseball, maybe you do have a sense for how likely or unlikely each of those things I outlined actually are. Universal DH, I know it has to be collectively bargained. That's more jobs for veteran hitters. I would assume that the Players Association ultimately wants that. Is there any reason why they wouldn't? No, they want that, but it's not great jobs. You know, it's not. A lot of times it's one-year deals,

you know, veteran stuff. It's not. The leadership in Union, it's not going to be like, the stars aren't going to care as much about those. And then it doesn't, it's like 15 jobs, but a lot of, you know, it's probably more like 10 jobs.

Cause a lot of those teams will just cycle in guys to DH and rebuilding teams are not going to spend money on Nelson Cruz or whatever, you know? So, you know, it's, it's not the highest quality jobs. And then also it's just like 15 jobs, you know, the, the, it's always about push and pull, right? It's like, what do you get? What do you give? What do you get? So will they give expanded playoffs, uh, to the owners just for 15 jobs? I don't think so. I don't think that's, I don't think that that lines up because the way the playoffs, the way they're paid in the playoffs, they're paid off a gate right now.

It's 50% of the gate, you know, which doesn't include any of the TV money and none of that. So I think the owners will have to come to the table and be like, okay, we'll give you X percentage of the TV money in the postseason plus DH, then we can get expanded playoffs. That's, that's the sort of negotiation that has to happen. Yeah, that's a great point. Like they all would take the DH, like, you know, said, but at what cost, right? It's like one of the few cards they have is that they can control right now, they'd have to agree to expanded playoffs. Then obviously when they

renegotiate the CBA, if there's not a lockout, they won't have this kind of power over these things. So I think they kind of hold that DH card like, okay this is an easy thing that we can get, but at what cost, right? At what expenses is this going to come to us down the line? And for the players, I think expanded playoffs

is one of their biggest chips. Like at least one of the biggest chips they can give. They don't want to do a salary cap. You know, all that other stuff that teams want. They don't want to give any of that. But they can maybe give expanded playoffs, but it's the biggest chip they have. So I think they would rather say,

hey, let's double the minimum salary. Right, because they are worried about suppressing the salaries if the regular season doesn't count as much. So there's like a ripple effect, too. I think it's important for people to understand, the players aren't against playing more playoff games. They all love the playoffs, but it's what,

again, at what cost? Everything is a push and pull. And they don't get paid that well for the playoffs, so it's an important thing. Unless you win the World Series, in which case now you're all taking a pretty good chunk of change home. You're right. It is definitely different than

the regular season where those are guaranteed paychecks. You know what you're getting kind of planned for that. For the top guys especially, it's pocket change. For the guys making the minimum, you can double your salary. That could be a really good year. a third base coach that's that's life-changing money i mean i've known coaches who are like we're buying a house if we go to the playoffs you know but for us we would all sign up for that kind of money for guys making 15 20 million a year it's also it's it's important like you're saying it's not the same for everybody when you go to

the playoffs right it's not like a boost for the entire playing population. It's a boost for, you know, X amount of teams. And then it's a bigger boost for X minus a certain amount of teams. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's not, I think, you know, doubling the minimum salary and maybe chopping and making everyone super too, that would be more important to them than maybe DH. Or maybe all three of those for expanded playoffs. You know what I mean? Right, right.

Yeah, it's fascinating. And obviously, I mean, this has got to be the easiest segue into Robinson Cano, guy who flushes $24 million down the toilet. Oh, my God. What are you even doing? I would be careful to not eat weird foods. If I had $24 million riding on me not testing positive for steroids, I'd be so careful about every single thing I did. The money is guaranteed.

You're at the stage of your career where you're not trying to bulk up and get the next contract. It's mind-blowing. I think he wants to cement his legacy. He didn't want to go out as a terrible player. He didn't want to go out like that. And I think it's just almost like toxic masculinity. Just like a little bit like, I't i can't be this bad dude we all get old man we all get old we all get worse you know just take your money and and and and go

off into the sunset like he would have gone to the hall of fame he would have gone to the hall of fame he would have he would have made he lost 24 million dollars and he lost he i don't think he can go to the hall of fame now i think think that a second test, especially in these times, is even more than one test. Right. He would have got through the first one. The first one was a diuretic, right? And diuretics are used to cover up PEDs. Like, come on, we know what happened.

But this is like what they did in Russia in the 80s, you know? Well, Palmeiro got caught for 15 years ago. So not only is he cheating, but he's just like plain stupid. This is like a very highly detectable steroid that they found. So he's not using cutting edge stuff. Here's my thing. Was he always cheating?

Did you know how many players I heard from a lot of players about when this happened, like, okay, here's what's the system still sets up guys to cheat because this is his second positive test. We know he's been cheating before. Would he have gotten this contract had he not been cheating?

This is my question here. Would he have? Was he been cheating this whole time? Because we know that they weren't testing very much this year. Because what happened, I spoke with someone in the Players Association last week. What happened is because everything shut down for COVID, they obviously didn't deem testing for steroids as an essential business. So these guys were barely tested for most of the season.

Okay. So it's kind of a free for all. But my question is with Canoe, this is random drug testing. Did he find ways around this drug testing in previous years? Has he been cheating his whole career? Nobody on this podcast can say for certainty, right, that he hasn't been cheating since he got up here. Maybe he cheated to get here. There are so many minor league guys who don't make it and their biggest regret is not doing steroids, is not cheating to get the contract,

to get the money. So now he's at a spot where who cares about the $24 million? Maybe he wouldn't have made the $200 million before that if he hadn't been cheating. Right. I mean, I think the incentive to cheat and to take steroids is so much greater before you get that first big paycheck. It's obvious, not condoning it, but I'm saying it's easier to understand the logic behind taking that risk when you're talking about a possible nine-figure contract in your future. But even just going from terrible minor league paychecks to big league minimum, that's a pretty big leap that changes the quality of your life. I always think about like a four or five-year veteran.

It's just like trying to hold on and trying to get... Once you get to five years, isn't there like a pension? 10 years is the pension. 10 years is the pension. I think five years is like the full benefits or something. I don't know. Yeah, benefits. There's something after five years,

something after 10 years. Also around five years, six and seven years is usually free agency. So yeah. Yes. That's like a big point. But I think he just reached, I think maybe if he hasn't been cheating

always then there was this thing of like well i was really bad and they're not testing right now so you know let me let me get back on the horse but you know his numbers have been so so um consistently good that i would say he probably always cheated if i had to guess i i think so too like what stops a guy, right? A positive test. He had one that was positive, diuretic came back, and his numbers didn't tank. He also never issued a statement this time. Usually we get that hollow, I'm sorry, I didn't know what was going on my body statement. We didn't even get that.

It was like, all right, the jig is up. Everyone knows. That's it. So I just wonder. I have a hard time believing that this was a, oops, I only cheated this year because they weren't really testing. No, I think he's been cheating for a while. And I think if you talk to guys and you say, you know, off the record, I think guys probably would believe that he's probably been cheating,

not just the years he was caught, right? I think we could probably all attest that the thing about this random drug testing is that some guys are able to figure out when they're getting these random drug tests as well so there are guys who are very skilled at avoiding those drug tests in certain years and there's time yeah there's timing there's timing things where it happens more often in certain times so they can like cycle they can spend the off season like certain parts the off season cycling the stuff and getting as big as possible and then maybe get off of it during the season stuff like that you know but one thing is it's i just had this piece

about the the pitching the pine tar and the pitching and uh we i quickly sort of reached a consensus among people that it was more than three quarters of the league right i don't i don't have that consensus when I talk to people about steroids. I don't have an idea. I don't have any idea. I don't have any idea how many, what percentage of baseball players are doing steroids right now.

Nobody would talk about it. Do they get the peak though in the 90s, early 2000s? At least more than half. How comparable would it have been to Pintar at that time? Yeah, maybe we're talking three quarters plus. i mean there was there weren't testing for it you know it was out in the open i mean players the mlbpa is so strong that they actually couldn't test the players had to give them the okay to amend it to test for those drugs of abuse players were finally like you know what we're all not cheating and i don't want to compete against the

guy who's cheating so they had to go amend Well, that suggests then maybe that it wasn't 100% or 75% to 100% because they had to pass that agreement to be tested. Right. I mean, I imagine the pitchers were kind of getting frustrated. These hulked up guys who couldn't hit a lick in AAA are now hitting 60 home runs, right? But there were pitchers doing it too. There were also pitchers, yes, I know. But I feel like with the hitters, it was a bit more eye-popping to look at some of these guys and their biceps and how they looked. Right?

I looked at Andy Pettit. Did he ever look like he was a juiced-up guy? No. Right, right. Did he ever look like Mark McGuire? But he was doing them, so. I know, I know, I know. They're all doing them to some extent.

But you're right. Maybe that does prove, or at least a new generation of players were like, no, this is getting out of hand. I don't want to compete. Let's say it couldn't have been 100% or they would never would have conceded to being tested, I think. And so let's say back then it was above 50% and maybe some of them felt bad and they, to do it because they felt bad and they wanted it out and they just would rather that everyone didn't cheat. Right. Um, then I would say that now we're talking maybe, I think the upper bound is around a third cause it has to be less than it

was. I was going to say like a quarter kind of feels right, but it's a guess with a blindfold on. Like I have no, no basis for that. I'm just assuming it's a lot less prevalent than it used to be. And you have players who speak out against it a lot more now than we used to hear back in the peak of that steroid era. But real quick on the Mets, getting $24 million back for 2021.

Steve Cohen has plenty of money, as we discussed, with him taking ownership of the team. But does DJ LeMayhew just automatically end up with the Mets now, given the need at second base? And I know they could play Jeff McNeil there and do something different, but it certainly looks like they could easily fill that canovoid with DJ LeMayhew and end up with a pretty nice upgrade in their lineup. I don't know that it'll be DJ LeMayhew specifically because they have Jeff McNeil,

whose best position is probably second base. And they can still probably put J.D. Davis at third. And I think that the biggest problem for the Mets has been getting offense and defense been the premier, getting offense and defense from the premier defensive positions. So their problem has been shortstop and center. And so I think that that's actually how they will use the money. They will either use the money to bring in Lindor or get a Springer-Realmuto situation. But the Mets are good in a lot of places, except just right up the middle.

And so I think that shortstop, catcher, center field are the places that this money will find its way onto the field. And coincidentally, those are spaces where you should generally spend money in free agency. A lot of players with that kind of skill set, with that athleticism, they're going to hold on for a while. My only retort is they will hold on to value,

overall value, but they don't necessarily always hold on to that specific positional value. So like in my example is how long, how much longer do you want George Springer to play center? Right. Not much longer. But the thing is,

not much longer would even Francisco Lindor play shortstop. I mean, we don't have Derek Jeters anymore, but we don't have Derek Jeters anymore. But the thing is... How much longer would even Francisco Lindor play shortstop? I mean, there's not... We don't have Derek Jeters anymore. But we don't have Derek Jeters anymore. We move people off of shortstop now at like 31, 30, you know? I don't even know if Didi Gregorius is going to be a shortstop next year. Yes, but we're also a league where there...

Remember there used to be guys who were like pushing 40 on rosters? That's just no longer the case. So we now skew so young that by the time you do get to 31 32 like you are the oldest guy out there on the field by quite a margin right or by you know positionally at least so we're promoting guys so early especially now with no minor leagues you saw like the league is so young right now i don't think people realize that and young and cheap right so now if these guys get hurt these young guys you can just continue to cycle them out right just throw a hundred you get hurt 10 guys throw

100 whatever throw them away got younger more younger guys coming in so that's a good point real muto makes a lot of sense for the mets because they have trouble at catcher they don't really have anybody in the minor leagues and even if if the rule changes change, you know, he's not the most amazing framer. The thing about Ryomuto is putting offense at the catching position. Yeah. So even if they have like robot umpires or whatever it is, like Ryomuto will hold on to his value for sure. Do you guys like pitch framing? To me, it's like one of the most overvalued subjective things there is out there, right?

Like, I don't know. Just bring in the robo umps already. Get rid of the most overvalued, subjective things there is out there, right? Like, I don't know. Just bring in the robo-umps already. Get rid of the pitch framing nonsense. That's what I feel like. Yavi Molina is the last of the great catchers, in my opinion, and now we can just go back to basing it off of their offense.

I don't want robot umps yet. I don't think we're ready for that. It's something Eno's brought up a few times that we're not close enough to the technology being perfect to make that change. I think we'd introduce a bunch of new flaws that drive us crazy if we went ahead and made that switch. So I'm going to say I don't like pitch framing, but I prefer the current setup to the technological replacement that we would have if that switch were to happen right now. So the other thing I wanted to get to as it pertains to the league as a whole, I mean, you mentioned before, it's getting younger, it's getting

cheaper, it's going to keep happening. We're going to see more young talent coming up because young talent makes the league minimum and teams are going to be cutting costs pretty much across the board. And I think that's what makes things so interesting with the Rockies possibly trading away Nolan Arenado. I saw an exchange today. It was Mike Petriello and Joe Sheehan trying to put some pieces together and kind of wondering with an opt-out, is Nolan Arenado a less valuable trade piece? with an opt-out? Is Nolan Arenado a less valuable trade piece? But I think Joe Sheehan's point was he's not going to opt out because it's like 5 for 150 or something close to that after his opt-out. It's $30 million a year for five years at a time when spending is going down and he'll be after his age 30 season. So as good as he is, you really don't have to worry about him opting out if you make that trade for him. I started thinking, what do trades with players of this caliber even look like when you have that much money left on the deal? One of the trades that I thought of was the big

blockbuster between the Red Sox and the Dodgers from 2012, when Adrian Gonzalez, Carl Crawford, and Josh Beckett all went to the Dodgers. I mean, that's more complicated in the sense that you're dealing with three big salary players there. The return was horrible. James Loney, Ivan DeJesus, Alan Webster, an old Eno favorite, Ruby De La Rosa, and Jerry Sands. One of the worst quantity for quality trades that we've seen in this modern era. Usually when you get back five or six players, you hit on at least one or two of them. That was an 0 for 5 for the Red Sox in that trade.

Yeah. What I do love, though, and what fans kind of miss sometimes is when, remember when the Orioles were trying to trade Manny Machado? It's like, oh, we got four guys back. It's like, well, no, you'd rather get one guy who's good, right? Sometimes when you get that mass quantity, it's like, cool, we got four okay back. It's like, well, no, you'd rather get one guy who's good. Right? Sometimes when you get like that mass quantity, it's like, cool,

we got four okay players. What's that going to do? Right? But fans, the top 50. Right, right. Fans kind of judge it as like,

here's the haul we got. And it's like, look at all these bodies, you know, and people can kind of fall in love with the volume. And that's a great trade example of like, hey, we got five guys.

Absolutely no value. Just negative value. I was going to say that Adrian Gonzalez was more of a poison pill at that point than Arnauto. But I don't know. Going into 2012, I mean, he's 30 years old. Arnauto's 30 years old. You know, Gonzalez had had a six-win season two years in 2011. Maybe it is a comparable situation.

I think you could probably treat the option as he's not going to opt out. And on top of that, people look at Arnauto's away splits. I, you know, people look at, at Arnauto's away splits. And I think that that, first of all, he just came off a bad year.

So that affects his away splits. Second of all, we know that like Rocky's players struggle with seeing a ton of fastballs at home and a ton of junk on the road. And then that a lot of times Rocky's players perform better when they leave cores than people think. I'm thinking of Matt Holliday, Dexter Fowler. There were other players that basically continued to be...

DJ LeMayhew. Yeah, right. Ended up being assets in other parks. So what I wanted to do was just look at Arenado's overall expected WOBA. And so that's just looking at his launch angles and exit velocities and stuff. And it's basically around 360 in most years. I'm kind of looking past last year a little bit because of the injury. And other guys that basically have the same expected Woba between 2019 and 2020 are Raphael Devers and Matt Chapman. And Arnauto is a five-year gold glover,

so I think he can absolutely put him in that conversation. Those other guys are younger, duh. I understand that. But we're talking about a premier player. Right. And he's paid a lot, but he's still a premier player. So it does not surprise me that the Dodgers are interested. I think the Mets could be interested.

They're looking to send a poo poo platter and take on the money and I'm telling you this I don't trust Jeff Burdich Burdich Burdich the GM

whatever we can't pronounce his name and we definitely don't trust him no that's not what I'm saying the GM whatever we can't pronounce his name and we definitely don't trust him no that's not what I'm saying I don't trust him to know what good hitters are because the Ian Desmond contract was a pretty obvious stinker

I mean I don't trust them because they've failed over the last how many years they were supposed to win remember when they signed Arenado this was their commitment to winning? How quickly that soured. I also don't trust him because Arenado doesn't trust him. And he gave money to Arenado.

Arenado should trust him. Arenado's like, get me the hell out of here. If someone gave me a $260 million contract, I'd probably trust them for more than a year or two. Yeah.

I probably, yeah. I probably wouldn't badmouth them in the press, but you know, see, Nolan's gonna Nolan. If I didn't trust them for more than a year or two. Yeah. I probably, yeah. I probably wouldn't badmouth them in the press, but, you know, see, Nolan's going to Nolan. Right, if I didn't trust them, people wouldn't know that. It would be within my inner circle with no leaks. But Nick Grohg has a great story up about just how they've gone dark and they're not saying anything publicly right now. I think that maybe they're about to fire their GM.

So now the question is, do they fire him before or after he trades Nolan Arenado? This is the Theo question, right? If you are going to get rid of your GM and you have a player like Arenado and trading him away is a big deal because you're going to get something good back, even with that contract, you have to let your new GM make that move. The problem is if you fired Jeff Bridich today, it's going to take you a couple of weeks to get a new GM in place because you're probably not promoting someone who worked with British to

take over the job. Your org kind of stinks, unfortunately. Yeah. And you're competing with the Mets who now everybody wants to work for all of a sudden, you know, so you might not get the best talent out there. Your timing was bad. And I'm not trying to make people in Colorado feel really good about the possibility of this happening, but the only true baseball challenge that currently exists that we know about that- Theo to Colorado! Theo broke two historic streaks.

Solve this one, Theo! But this is different. This is a different problem, Theo. You want to go do something no one's ever done before? Go build a perennial winner in Colorado because it is really hard. He was talking about wanting to make more contact, defense. He wants to do other parts of the game. Woo, Colorado, baby.

Start that rumor. Let's get those hitters together. Yeah. Start that rumor. And he'd probably make a pretty shrewd trade in terms of who they acquired back, right? You have a lot more faith in what Theo can get back for Nolan Arenado. You know, we've been yelling about like,

they should be doing something different in Colorado because it's a different park. They should be doing something different. They should have a whole bunch of three inning pitchers as opposed to starting staff or something. They should be doing something. And I would have confidence in Theo actually to come in and be like, hey, we're going to rethink this whole entire thing called baseball,

and we're going to do it totally differently. So I don't know. Yeah. You guys. Let's start the train. Theo to Colorado. Yes, choo-choo. I'm aboard.

Is there anything more 2020 than the Mets job being the best job available right now? It's almost impossible, right? If someone had told you this time last year, hey, don't worry. The Mets are going to be the best place to work in baseball one year from today. You would have laughed so hard. It would have hurt. It would have been insane. And their owner is making dad jokes on twitter

like he actually has me like kind of jealous like i wish i covered an owner that was on twitter making dad jokes and like like interacting with fans like is this gonna be the new norm now i mean easy to say now in november once they go on they lose nine out of ten is steve cohen still on twitter like haha hey mets fans what can we do to improve the team when the trolls come out yeah when the trolls come out let's speculate some more what teams are good fit for nolan arenado i mean the dodgers come up as the the obvious one because they have a need at third base justin turner being a free agent they spend money all that makes sense but where else could you reasonably trade nolan arenado a team that, they spend money, all that makes sense. But where else could you reasonably trade Nolan Arenado, a team that will spend the money, that has the need,

and that has some young talent, probably a major league-ready caliber player to send back, plus a few prospects? I think that's still what it's going to take, even with the money owed to Arenado over the next six years. What other fits are there, Britt? I was going to ask you, do you think the Nationals are still at a point in their competitive cycle where they're saying, actually, we want to add? We're not ready to tear it down. We have enough of a core. We're not quite like the Cubs where everybody's a year away from

becoming a free agent. So we want to add that core piece. I think it's weird that they wouldn't have just re-signed Anthony Rendon, but what do you think about the situation? Yeah, I think the Mets obviously are always going to be a factor now this year when we talk about spending money, but the Nats have money to spend too. They do have money. To your point, Derek, like a year ago, they were a little more on the Carter Keyboom train than they are this year. they were a little more on the Carter Keboom train than they are this year. They haven't really liked what they've seen from him. And I think they've kind

of realized you cannot trade away Bryce Harper and Anthony Rendon back-to-back winters not at anybody. Yeah, that's what I meant. Let them go to free agency not at anybody and expect your offense to be okay. They've really struggled. So I think they've kind of realized

okay, this was a lot to kind of peg on Carter Keboom, who has barely really any major league experience, again, moving him around at third base. So I thought it was crazy when Nick Groke wanted to go over a trade idea and wanted to write it. And then the more I text people in the organization and the more I actually thought about it, the more I think it's not so crazy. Max Scherzer's deal is about the same amount as Nolan Arenado's. You will only be paying the two of them for one year of overlap this next year. And also- A lot of money comes off the board for them in 2022.

Yes. So when you look at this team, they are set up to take on that kind of a contract if he pushes the opt-out. They are okay trading a guy like Keboom or even a Victor Robles and absorbing kind of what that loss would mean. If they get a Nolan Arenado to play with Juan Soto and Trey Turner, that lineup combined with Strasburg and Scherzer, you're looking at a legitimate contender again. And it's again, the flags fly forever. If they win again within a few years of winning in 19, who cares that they have to burn it down to the studs in a few years, right? I think you kind of have to take that and realize they don't have anybody positionally. They've graduated everybody. They're in that win now.

What's the point of paying Max Scherzer and Steven Strasburg and Patrick Corbin if you're not going to win? And open a window around Juan Soto, right? Open a window around Juan Soto, who you've got till 2024. You got Soto and Strasburg to 2024 with Corbin. I mean, it's not a core that stands up to everybody else. But you throw Arnauto in there. Okay, hey, here we go.

We got something. And they've got the money to keep floating those. I like that. I wanted to throw another name out there. The Texas Rangers. Kylie McDaniel had a devastating tweet yesterday. Oh, my Lord. Listen to this. Texas Rangers projected opening day position players minus Joey Gallo.

12 players, $36.7 million minus two war. Negative. Negative. Negative. Joey Gallo is the only, like the rest of them are dragging Joey Gallo down. So they also show up as 30th. I think Isaiah Kiner Falafel would be a great kind of jack, you know, of all trades utility guy. And I think if you put Arnauto there, it would make the team a lot better. It takes them from 30th on the depth chart, you know,

when it comes to third baseman to eighth, that would be a big deal. Yeah. They want to have some fans in the seats next year. So that's the team. The Nationals are 29th. So, you know, we've talked about the right teams here. Yeah. I mean, well, for the Rangers, it's like, hey, come to our new stadium.

Our team is horrible. I mean, you got to do something. And the team. And this looks like one of those sheds. What are those prefab sheds that you buy? I think it looks like a Costco. A Costco. Kind of does, yeah.

Which to me is a good thing. I'm very much a fan of Costco. But I guess I don't want a baseball stadium that looks like one though. I'll just throw out some other names though. The Cards and the Giants, but the Cards are talking about cutting money. The Giants would be interesting, but then they got to do something with Evan Longoria.

So, you know, those are the other teams that come to mind. Send Longoria back. Yeah. Get Charlie Blackman too and send back Longoria to free up third base. I mean, there are creative solutions to this problem. And I do think the Nats thing, I mean, just thinking about Robles and Keboom, that's a good foundation for a deal. You're probably talking about those two guys, maybe a couple other lower level guys.

But if you're the Rockies, is that enough to free yourself of the contract to feel like you're getting someone in Kibum who steps in right away and at least plays every day, someone in Robles who also plays every day, you're buying low on him. I know we've talked about him a bit on this show for the weight gain and he just wasn't himself at all this year. But you're talking about a guy at one point, it was Acuna and then Robles on prospect list. So you're buying low on a very toolsy player whose defense would play up, especially in Colorado. It's a massive outfield there, and he should be a center fielder for the next five years. I don't think he's going to outgrow center field, barring another 20 pounds or something, but that kind of makes sense as something that you can justify on Colorado's

position. Like, hey, we got young, exciting players back. We're not totally punting right now. There's at least a chance that those two guys, one of them still becomes a well above average everyday player. And maybe Keboom's only just a regular at this point, but that's a pretty nice return when you think about what else could be out there. And might be better than, yeah, might be better than what other teams are going to offer them. The teams might just be like, no, we're taking the contract off your hands. The Rockies owner said that they were on target for 94 wins last year. Currently, only two teams in baseball are projected for a worse winning percentage next year by fan graphs only the pirates and orioles are have a worse winning percentage they're tied

with the tigers so it might be time for a rebuild but usually when you're doing a rebuild what you do uh is not like the arnado thing is not to is not your way that you you goose a rebuild you trade story or you trade uh even like a young like a lot of times you have to is not your way that you you goose a rebuild you trade story or you trade uh even like a young like a lot of times you have to trade a young guy with years left uh to get something back like maybe somebody loves sam hilliard or something but they don't even really i'm like trying to like scroll through and i'm like uh trade uh uh trade uh herman marquez it's herman marquez he's he's actually probably the best trade piece. He, they, I would say with his contract,

they probably could get more in terms of prospect talent than they'll get for Aaron Otto because of the difference in money. I mean, Herman Marquez on any other team, we would talk about him as an ace consistently. If he pitched anywhere but Colorado, he's very affordable deal. Five year,

43 million through 23 with a club option. Yeah. Sounds like a job for CO. Yeah, exactly. So if you're going to tear it down, don't do it with your current GM. Let's move on to the Marlins. We talked about the hiring of Kim Ang and just how awesome that was that she got this opportunity. But we didn't really dive into the Marlins and

the actual job at hand, like what direction they're going to go. I mean, they made the postseason with the expanded playoffs and against all odds that came in a year in which they were one of the teams with the COVID outbreak. There's young talent there. I think there've been moves they've made in recent years with Derek Jeter calling most of the shots that don't really make sense. I think the Zach Gallen trade is the one that immediately comes to mind. You don't trade Zach Gallen for Jazz Chisholm. That's just not a good idea. The Yelich trade, of course, happened prior to that, so you're not necessarily looking at that, but that's far enough in the past. You don't have to worry about that anymore. I just think you look at this team right now,

and you go position by position. On the top of the depth chart, I don't know how many players I actually believe are going to be on the next Marlins playoff team among that group of position players when you look around. It's the position players that are the problem, yeah. That's the problem. So how is Kim Eng going to fix this?

Because if the playoffs weren't expanded this year, they weren't a playoff team and I didn't have any expectation that they'd be a playoff team in 2021 either with the core they have in place. I think she's got two big problems. She's got to fix the culture and start winning.

Those aren't quick fixes. Those aren't like, let's go out and sign Trevor Bauer and all these sexy free agents. That's not going to happen. I think they have to look at their farm system, which I think they – didn't they graduate like seven of their top ten prospects in 20? They had a lot of guys that they kind of helped push back up. But the rest of that system is still pretty deep. They're at the top five among baseball and farm systems still. So I think if you're the Marlins, you kind of have to look at what Tampa Bay did and what Oakland has done in these smaller markets because you're not going to be the New

York Mets. You're not just going to throw this stupid money everywhere. People keep saying like, oh, what are they going to do now to make a splash after they hired Kim Eng? And it's like, nothing. They're're gonna try to get better at the smaller things the player development things yeah the numbers they are woefully behind as i'm sure you know is probably heard and can delve into they're woefully behind in a lot of the technology and the data and a lot of the the advanced analytics um they are not the tampa bay rays when it comes to that stuff so that's what what's going to happen. And you're not going to see that in a splashy headline. That's what I think.

They don't have much money to spend. I mean, if you look at Roster Resource, their 2020 payroll was $75 million. Right now, their 2021 is at $62 million, estimated with the ARB increases and everything. So they don't have a lot to spend. And I will say that from the bottom, they were at the bottom. At one point, the Marlins were taking weighted balls out of people's bags in the locker room.

They were fining people if they used weighted balls. People had to use weighted balls in their hotel rooms, you know, like all furtively and had to like follow their own programs, you know, or be accosted by team personnel. They had this weird thing where scouts were penalized for the relationship between their grade on the fastball and what happened in the major leagues.

And so all the scouts starting putting 45s on everybody's fastball so that they wouldn't get penalized for saying somebody had a 50 or 60 fastball and then get into the major leagues and it didn't do well. So they did all this weird stuff behind the scenes that they've been cleaning that up. I know a little bit about what's happening in, in, in Florida and the new owner was,

was, we're very helpful in helping clean up a lot of these processes. So I think they've been slowly getting better at the data and the tech. They've been slowly getting better at the scouting process. But what I think Kim can do for them is just really, you know, one thing that she has is a background in international markets. So I think that she will go and find some players in some places that people will be surprised and start opening up a pipeline to some of those places.

She has contacts in these places. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few Mexican signings and stuff like that. She'll know the right places to look and the right people to talk to. Yes. And then I would not be – she also beat Boris. I mentioned that she beat Boris in arbitration. I think she'll, you know, try to go out there and make some small signings to help improve this squad. Because they do have Alcantara and Sixto Sanchez and Pablo Lopez for three, four years.

So they do have some sort of a pitching core. But she will go out and maybe sign some one-year $5 million vets that might be better than Aguilar or that can work with him. Sign someone to play second. That won't cost that much, but it will be an upgrade over Bertie or Chisholm or get out of the way if Bertie, Chisholm, or Diaz step forward. So the kind of short-term signings that don't block a Louis Brinson if he steps forward,

don't block Monte Harrison, but can play there until Monte Harrison either poops or gets off the potty sort of deal. So I think some small, short-term deals,

some opening of some pipelines, and definitely the structural changes that you mentioned. Yeah, so nothing headline-worthy, right? Just going to be that small incremental change that in five years will hopefully be like, hey, how did so nothing headline-worthy, right? It just could be that small incremental change that in five years we'll hopefully be like, hey, how did the Marlins get here, right?

Yeah, maybe with Kim Eng calling the shots, they become the kind of team that develops talent internally and maximizes resources the way the Yankees do currently, right? That's sort of the hope if you're the Marlins, that you take 40, 45 grade talent, turn those players into regulars, that you turn regulars into above average players. If you can maximize the quality of your

player development, that's the best path to long-term success in a situation like that, where money's probably always going to be tighter in that organization than it's going to be in a lot of other places. There is a historical precedent, too. I mean, the Marlins have actually produced some of the game's greatest talents.

Yes, they have. The all-Marlins, the was-that-guy-a-Marlins team is formidable. It's pretty good, yeah. So they have some processes in place that are good. I think that their trade evaluations have been pretty bad. Especially in recent years. I mean, it's been horrendous. But even in previous front offices, they've made some pretty big

mistakes trading away great players and not getting nearly enough back in the return. Magnuris, Sierra, like what? That dude cannot hit. And Gallen was the headliner of that deal in the end. For a kid that might have a 40% strikeout rate.

risk middle infielder. And if they're able to turn Chisholm into the best version of what he might be based on tools, great. Then it ends up looking fine in the long run, but that's a very risky profile that they're trying to work with him. So curious to see how that among other things plays out. Let's get to our Thanksgiving day sides and Apps draft. I've been looking forward to this all morning. There are no rules here. Anything can be a side or an appetizer on Thanksgiving. That's my first rule. That's my only rule. stupid maps that go out on Twitter every couple of days for literally any sort of topic. And some of them are designed to troll people and just make them upset. And then you see like the Thanksgiving map and what's normal in SEC country as the favorite side is certainly not the same as what you're going to see out on the West Coast where, you know, salad often wins. I don't know what you guys are doing on the West Coast.

I love the West Coast, but salad can't be your favorite Thanksgiving side. No. With a little romaine and tomato and some croutons and a little shredded carrot, if that's the side you're looking forward to the most on Thanksgiving, you are doing it wrong. The draft order is as follows.

Britt gets the first pick. Eno gets the second pick. I get the third pick. It's a non-snaking order. So it goes back to the top at the end of the round. So Britt, kick us off with the first pick. And these are apps and sides, right? I'm writing all these down so that we can put them on Twitter for people to shame us later. Excellent.

So apps and sides. I'm going to open strong with macaroni and cheese. I think there's a consensus 1-1. There's a Mike Trout in this draft, and macaroni and cheese isn't it. And if I had that pick, I would have gone macaroni and cheese. I think mac and cheese is like Tatis or Acuna

over Trout in a fantasy draft up top. I'm sorry. I think it's better than mashed potatoes, which anybody can. I think you're getting more mileage out of the, the Mac and cheese mashed potatoes are fine, but I can't eat Mac and cheese. I mean,

it doesn't really, dairy doesn't really like me anyway, but I like it. And so whatever. I will like be like, yes, I agree with you. Also,

I can't eat it. I think it's the right pick. I don't think it's the consensus. Number one. I'm going be like, yes, I agree with you. Also, I can't eat it. I think it's the right pick. I don't think it's the consensus number one. I'm going to like, I'll sneak a little mac and cheese on my plate and take a pill later. Yeah. No, for my second pick, for the second pick in this draft. You're on the clock, Eno. The clock is 15 seconds. I i'm gonna say sweet potato mashed

potatoes you could you could say sweet potato casserole if you'd like i don't know if that that i love putting marshmallows on my sweet potatoes or whatever that whole thing gets a little sweet but i love mashed potatoes i love instapot mashed potatoes yes um and instapot for some reason just cooks them perfectly and it and you just put a little cream and butter in it and it's a german like i'm about potatoes uh so i'm gonna go with the the mashed potatoes either mashed regular or mashed sweet potato and i'm gonna take that over the sweet potato casserole oh so you're taking you're taking mashed potatoes in that spot even though you want them to be sweet potatoes. Are you taking sweet potatoes or mashed potatoes?

I'm taking mashed potatoes of any sort. He's claiming two sides. Those are both on the table. I'm taking any potato-based product. All potato products are mine. Eno has taken all grains and carbs off the table. All tubers. I. All tubers. I get all tubers.

This is the rules. I want all root vegetables with the second pick. Germans love their potatoes. All right. So you took mashed potatoes. I'm going to allow this for the sake of time, but that is hogging multiple sides, man. So potatoes.

Eno gets all potatoes. Jeez. All right. Well, that makes my decision a little trickier. I'm actually going to take, and this is going to be a little bit of a surprise for a first rounder. I would have taken sweet potato casserole if it was actually out there. No, that is out there. I'm taking mashed potatoes.

All right. I will take the sweet potato casserole with the third pick. Do you put it with the marshmallows on it, or is it just more like a glaze? I think it's a little more of a sweet dish for me. Yeah, you're going to get some marshmallow in there, a little bit of brown sugar, and sprinkle a little salt on top, because then you get the salty and the sweet together. So I'm glad we're keeping those separate. I think those are separate items. Not everybody has both, but I think you actually can have both. I think they are different enough that you can justify putting both on your table.

I mean, to be honest, I'll probably mash regular potatoes and have some sort of sweet potato vegetable. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I also do both as well. They're different. I'm going to do stuffing as long as it's cooked well for my... Do I go next, right? It snakes back?

Yeah, you can go next. I should have taken two back to back but i i said straight draft so you get to go you did uh yeah i'm gonna go stuffing uh no no real explanation needed when cooked correctly it is a delight but it's not like stuffing out of the like box or whatever bag or whatever real homemade stuffing and so what are you doing you're like making croutons and then are you putting some like sausage in? Yeah, there's meat in it There's bread in it There's like a

Yeah, real stuffing Real stuffing Okay, I can get behind that There's a lot of the sort of pre-packaged stuffing I'm like, just miss me on that Yeah, no, no, that's a pass I'm not cooking that inside the bird You do not cook this in the bird

So if that technically means it's dressing Okay, this is what we're talking about here Definitely with you on the croutons Because it gets too soggy inside the bird. So if that technically means it's dressing, okay, this is, this is what we're talking about here. Definitely with you on the croutons. Cause it gets too soggy inside the bird. Yeah. It just, it just gets too,

it gets really weird. Sausage is a must. You want to have sausage in there, a little bit of celery. The one thing I've had in dressing that I really like is actually a little bit of dried cranberry too. That's another little twist that you can throw in there. And it works, works really well. Good call. Good pick, Britt.

Maybe that should have been the third pick over the sweet potato casserole in hindsight. All right. I'm taking green beans. Green beans? Casserole or no? Where's the line? When I make my green beans, I put pancetta in.

I could see putting some sort of bread crumbs or something that would make it something closer casserole but my favorite is green beans with pancetta uh and a spice called like summer savory but you can maybe use the italian seasoning um oregano that sort of deal some sort of uh dried green uh seasoning on top of that. I think that's amazing. With the pancetta and the green beans together, it's like my family eats it right up. I don't know if I get to make it this year

because my dad's a vegetarian, but he usually takes a day off a year and that's Thanksgiving. I like it. I like it. It's a good cheat day if you're going to go that route. I was going to take a green vegetable here as well. I'm going to take Brussels sprouts.

You have to make them right. Good Brussels sprouts are really good. Bad Brussels sprouts are inedible. Don't steam them ever. Just don't. Never, never steam them. You have to roast them. You want them to be nice and crispy.

I think kind of like Eno's pancetta trick. I haven't done pancetta on green beans, but bacon. You can do little pieces of bacon on your Brussels sprouts. bacon. You can do little pieces of bacon on your Brussels sprouts. And anybody who has an air fryer, 350 for like 10-15 minutes and then bump it up

to 400 at the end and they'll be cooked through and crispy. Super easy in the air fryer. Pretty good stuff. You want to get them nice and done though. Do not undercook your Brussels sprouts. They will be disgusting. Third round pick, Britt. Oh, gosh. You guys took

my favorite veggies. Those are like the only ones really off the table here. I do love myself like a homemade biscuit. I mean, I already have mac and cheese and stuffing, so it's a very well-rounded plate over here that I've drafted. So I'm going to go with the rolls but i'm gonna

it's gonna they're gonna have to be homemade biscuits um no store-bought cold rolls they need to be homemade biscuits and i don't i don't know that i have anything left i was gonna take bread because i love bread who doesn't um you don't do cranberries have anything left. I was going to take bread because I love bread. Who doesn't? You don't do cranberries, you know? The thing is, it's too many times it's just that gross sauce. Yeah, the sliced can stuff, you don't want that. Yeah. Oh, God.

And I don't have the time to make it, you know? I think that's a topper for the turkey. I don't think that's actually a side. I feel like that's an extra thing that goes on something else you know you like you i think of like blackberry turkey sandwiches as one of my favorite sandwiches at thanksgiving it becomes cranberry turkey because you can make the current like real cranberries you boil them you know you get them down to like a jelly but not like the crap in the can, and then there you go. You put that over your turkey. I mean, I'm trying to scroll through some sides here. Kind of running out here. You guys don't do corn casserole?

What's that? Do you, Derek? Am I the only one who does? Like the Ritz cracker eats, got corn. We've had that before at my in-law's house, I think, because that gathering, it's about 40 people in a normal year. We're obviously not getting together this year. So everybody has to dig really deep on the roster to come up with something that someone else isn't bringing.

So I've had it there. It's roster dips. Yeah. Yeah. It's the ninth or tenth. I mean, I try to take a little scoop of at least everything on there. So I'm talking like ninth or tenth overall getting on my plate but i'm sure there's other stuff someone could bring that i would like more

well i'm seeing some stuffed stuffed mushrooms nice yeah i could throw them on the you guys fought over them oh yeah hey double eggs i'll take a double day derek's like why are you bringing thank you i was struggling for a second. After all of that, after all of that an hour ago, I thought I was safe. I thought I was going to get a good third round value pick and Britt just helps Eno out here, bails him out. Well, I

already said the mushrooms. You can have them. The cool thing about doing mushrooms is you got to put them on like a broiler rack or on the grill so that the liquid kind of drops out and it dries up a little bit and then you can put like uh herb and cheese stuffing inside it's pretty easy to do and i like them that way good choice i think it's important to have a couple of good appetizers because the meal takes a long time to get ready sit down during that first

football game at some point. You're going to want to eat before the Cowboys game starts, so you got to have a couple appetizers out there. And you got to spatchcock the turkey. Spatchcock the turkey. I agree. I'm all in on spatchcocking. I'll also accept a smoked turkey, though.

If you have a smoker, smoke your turkey. That works. I would, too. We did a turducken one year. It was really good too um what is that you stick a duck inside the turkey yeah it's a turkey a duck turducken and a chicken it's really good it's it was small you stick them all inside each other or what we didn't we bought it and then cooked it but yeah it was good okay crazy i'm just trying to think of me

like mad scientist trying to stick one bird inside another bird inside another bird. Derek, so you went deviled eggs? This is a solid little draft. Yep, I'm going deviled eggs in the third round. I think we kind of have to end in three rounds, right? Might be the best value pick according to me. I love deviled eggs. They're always welcome.

Any party, any gathering, including Thanksgiving. I think my vegan dad will eat them so i think i might mix them i saw a map where deviled eggs was the favorite side for indiana i'm like favorite side like come on it's it's good i like deviled eggs a lot but i'm not taking deviled eggs over mac and cheese you guys serious right now no no you guys have any other sides that we missed that you like having any traditions on thanks Thanksgiving? No. I mean, we didn't include all the pies, but we didn't do the dessert round, so I get it. We always do apple pie. What's your favorite pies?

Apple from scratch. Second option would probably be, I do like sweet potato pie, but I also like pecan pie. Pecan's good. Yeah. When done well, yeah. When it's made from scratch, done well, it is so good. I would choose pecan pie over pumpkin pie every day of the week because I feel like a pumpkin pie can only be so good.

There's a textural problem with pumpkin pie where it's kind of like, let's put baby food in a pie crust and then douse it with a pound of whipped cream. A little nutmeg on baby food probably makes baby food taste better. It's not bad, but compared to the textures and flavors of all the other pies you could have on Thanksgiving, that's why I always bury pumpkin pie in my rankings. I don't think it's bad. All pie is pretty much good. Everything else is just better to me. And pecan pie, if you get it wrong, if you go to the grocery store and it's just like a place not in the south that doesn't know how to make it, it's probably going to be pretty gross. But made right, it's sneaky like one of the best pies you can have.

Yes. I totally agree with that. And I think my kids even who love pumpkin pie might agree with you because one of the kids just scoops the baby food part out and eats that and doesn't even eat the crust. So you think he's with you on that. He just likes the baby food part. I think it's just an excuse to eat a lot of whipped cream. And whipped cream makes everything taste good. I get it.

I like whipped cream too. That kid is also the one that makes me squirt whipped cream right into his mouth. Just fill it up. That's what the pumpkin pie is all about. It's the love for whipped cream. You can put that in other pies, by the way, folks. My sneaky pie that no one ever has had is a sour cream blackberry pie. There's this Norwegian bakery restaurant in Wisconsin. There's this little town close to the Wisconsin-Minnesota border where they have a place

called the Norske Nook. I think you can order their pies online. They make these sour cream pies. They're sour cream blueberry, sour cream blackberry. That one's the best of both worlds. If you'd like that baby food, softer pumpkin pie feel, but you also want fruit to add the texture, that combines both of those things together. It's tart, it's sweet, and it's amazing. It's the only time of year where I ever get it. I would say of the non-traditional pies that are very unique to my Thanksgiving, sour cream blackberry is number one. I realize it's not a traditional Thanksgiving pie. Everyone's like, what the hell are you talking about?

That's not a real pie. Yeah, that sounds gross, but I'll take your word for it. It sounds very gross. I love sweet plus tart. Sweet plus tart is great. Yeah. But I also, just to throw a beer in here, that was weird. I, this last week, threw Coca-Cola in my Russian River supplication, which to some is like a top five sour in the world.

That's how much I love sweet and tart. I saw that. You posted that. How was it? That one was good. The other ones were not. Don't put a Coca-Cola in your IPA. That was disgusting. That seems like a bad idea. You probably knew before you

tried it that it wasn't going to be a great addition. I think this is a good holiday for your sour beers, your fruit beers. There's Lambics. There are Wild Ales. Those are perfect because they're, as you said before, they're kind of gateway beers.

If you have someone that would drink wine, they'd probably like a fruity beer, and it pairs really well with turkey. Otherwise, you can get to your really boozy stuff for dinner, your barrel-aged stouts and things, those really heavy chewy beers that hit you in the molars. I had to call it chewy because you didn't, but those are great after dinner too. They're sippers.

Got to have some Anchor Steam on tap for my dad. I got to do something light to drink to save more room for the food. I can't do a light drink. I need something with bubbles in it to make me burp. Well, on that note, I hope everybody has a great Thanksgiving. Hopefully, our suggestions for some sides and pies that you haven't necessarily

tried yet are options for you. Hopefully, our draft order didn't completely offend you. Hopefully, it didn't ruin your Thanksgiving. Obviously, this year is a little bit different for everybody. Stay safe and enjoy the time you have with whoever you're able to spend it with. If you're bored and you want to read stuff on The Athletic, it's a good time to get a subscription, $1 a week,

at theathletic.com slash ratesandbarrels on Twitter. She's at Britt underscore Giroli. He's at Eno Saris, and I am at Derek Van Ryper. That is going to wrap things up for this episode of Rates and Barrels. We are back with you on Monday. Thanks for listening.