REAL AF with Andy Frisella - 12. Throwback: LEADERSHIP: The Dichotomy It Takes To Dominate, Ft. Jocko Willink

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

A special throwback episode ft. Jocko Willink. In the episode, we talk about the opposing qualities that leaders need to develop, tactics for dealing with lack of confidence and other challenges leaders face with any team on the planet. This is as thorough an education on leadership as you’re going to get in less than 90 minutes. If you’re wanting to find out more on leadership, be sure to check out Jocko’s latest book, “Leadership Strategy and Tactics: Field Manual.”

I told my teacher, dumb bitch, I'm gonna get millions. Watch this. In a project living. Damn. Spoke it till existence. Voila. Mode changed to 50. What up?

Got more cars than diddy. I only weigh 180, but my watch cost 250. What's up, guys? It's Andy Frisella, and this is the show for the realest. Say goodbye to the lies, the fakeness, and delusions of modern society, and welcome to motherfucking reality. Guys, recently I've been getting tons of emails and DMs and questions about leadership, all right? And that's great because leadership really is the key to your success.

If you don't know how to lead, you're going to be very limited in what you can accomplish in your life. Now, a lot of people are confused about how to lead. A lot of people think that leadership is something you're born with. They're searching for the easy way to become a leader. And recently, it got me thinking about an episode I did on the old show, The MFCEO Project,

with one of my good friends, Jocko Willink. We had a great conversation about leadership and all the challenges that leaders face. And if you don't know Jocko, he's written a number of books on leadership and in my opinion is the master, the current living master of becoming an effective leader. This episode originally aired back in September of 2018, but the information that's in that podcast is just as valuable and relevant today as it was when we first released it and I know a lot of you guys haven't had the experience because you just

found us to listen to this show so I want to plug this in for you guys to listen to and I think it will bring a ton of value on your quest to become a leader so So I hope you guys enjoy the show. And if you do, if you learn something, if you had a laugh, which I guarantee you, you will with this show, please leave us a review and tell your friends, tell your family when the topic comes up of where you're getting such awesome knowledge that you're just blowing people's fucking minds with.

All right, that's the deal I wanna make with you. If you like it, tell a friend. All right, guys. Love you guys. Take notes in this show. Listen carefully. Listen to it a few different times because this show will make a difference for you. I promise you that. So get to it. What is up guys? You're listening to the MFCEO project. I'm Andy. I'm your host and I am the motherfucking CEO. Guys, if you're new to the MFCEO Project. I'm Andy, I'm your host, and I am the motherfucking CEO. Guys, if you're new to the podcast, first off, welcome. Second off, why do we call this the MFCEO Project? It's because I'm here to help you become the motherfucking CEO of your life.

Yes, this is an entrepreneurship podcast, but it's also personal development, and no, you don't have to own your own business to benefit from it. We don't have ads. We don't ask for anything. I'm not selling anything, but what I do ask is that if you find benefit from this episode, and I guarantee you you will find benefit from this episode,

and I'll tell you why in a minute. I ask that you share it with one friend. All right? If you've got a friend, if you've got somebody who is like-minded, you think that they would enjoy the content here, I ask that you share it, Vaughn, the pastor of disaster, a.k.a. DJ DJ God, a.k.a. Vaughn the Impaler, a.k.a. the man of many names. The man of many names. Yeah. What's up, dude? Dude, I'm a very weird combination of excited. You are very weird.

Yes. Excited, gratified, and tired, just like what we experienced over the last couple days. Oh, that was cool, yeah. It was crazy. So we just got back from Idaho from the first Arte Syndicate Summit, which is our high-level entrepreneurship society that M.I. Lett and I have created. I guess this is an ad, right? Yeah, a little bit.

By the way, it was fucking awesome. It was. We'll just leave it at that yeah uh dude we have an awesome i've been looking forward to this show for literally three years um we have my most anticipated guests that we've ever had on the show uh and i'll tell you why that is before I tell you who it is. Leadership is, I tell you guys all the time, you have to have two skills to be ultimately successful in life. You've got to learn how to lead and manage people and you have to learn how to sell shit. And yes, you could find your role

in life with one of those skills or the other and be moderately successful. But if you want to have unlimited success, you have to have both skills. And a lot of people look at me and they see someone who they think was gifted with the skills of leadership. And that's just completely false. I was not a very good leader for the first 10 or 12 years I was in business. I was not the captain of my sports teams. I was not born with leadership skills and I've had to learn them. And one of the books that I've read along the way that has really helped me become an effective leader. I'm not a great leader. I have a long way to go. But one of the books that has helped me become an effective leader is Extreme Ownership. And today I am super, super honored to have the author, one of the authors of that book,

Jocko Willink here with us today. So what's up, dude? Thanks for having me on. Oh man, this is, this is awesome. He just spoke to our team. Um, and that was great, man. I'm like, super pumped about that. Uh, I don't know, man. I'm like, I don't look up to many people, dude. You're one of the dudes I look up to. And so it's, it's really, and I know that's weird. Cause like we're, we're, we're like of similar age and we're like you know we have podcasts that are similar size and but dude it's just an honor to have you man for real thanks for having me on i i can promise you there's many things about me that will make you not look up to me at all no bro it's uh it's been cool to to read and listen to your podcast and learn and i just really appreciate what you're doing, doing for the world. I think a lot of people in entrepreneurship, they do what I just said.

They, they, they struggle with leadership because they think that they look at polished leaders like you or other guys running big companies like me. And they think like, dude, this guy was just born with these skills and they think we're superheroes and we know all this shit. But the truth of the matter is, is, is that's not true. You know, we, uh, we, we were born with, with certain skills, but not all the skills and do we fuck up as much as anybody, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Without, without, uh, screwing up along the way, you'd never learn anything. Right. And,, you take risks to try and make things happen, and sometimes they're successful and sometimes they're not. And you can do one of two things when that happens. If you have to do something that's not successful, you can either let it destroy you or you can learn from it and move on.

So I recommend you learn from your mistakes and move on and make them make you a better person and make them make you a better leader, which they will. And if you look at any of these, what you call a polished leader, which is a good term because there's some people out there that look very polished. All of them have a history of errors and mistakes that they made that they built into their life and corrected them and moved in the right direction for sure. One of the things that I'm super grateful for is your new book. And I posted it on my Instagram story last week. I read the book literally right when I got it. I started the night that I had, by the way, thank you for sending me that. I'm pretty honored to have, you know, the preview copy.

That's cool. That's when I'm done with that, that's going to go on my shelf. The dichotomy of leadership um i i personally think that that book is like extreme ownership on fucking steroids man like it is it is awesome uh i loved extreme ownership but man if i had the dichotomy of leadership when i was 20 years old you know what i mean what would my life look i know exactly what you mean yeah we were talking before the show and I said that and you were like, yeah, I wish I had it too. People say that to me all the time. You know, Oh, I wish I would've had this book. And I always say, yeah, I wish I would've had it too. Extreme ownership. The same thing with dichotomy. These, these books, these are, you know, we just talked about all these mistakes and how you learn

from mistakes. You don't have to make the mistakes yourself. You can actually read someone else's mistakes and learn from them. So that's another thing I would recommend. You read a book like Extreme Ownership and Extreme Ownership, as you know, it starts off with the first chapter, which is about a horrible situation that occurred on the battlefield. Friendly forces fighting against friendly forces, which is, in my opinion, the worst possible thing that can happen. And I was the guy in charge of it. So it doesn't get any worse than that. And, and, and you can, you don't have to

experience that yourself. You can read about it. You can understand what I learned from it, what we learned from it. And it's the same thing in dichotomy. It's like, Hey, these are situations that, you know, the, the, the fundamental, the fundamental idea of the dichotomy of leadership is that there's these opposing forces that are pulling you as a leader in opposite directions. And what's really hard is that both the directions that you're getting pulled are usually correct. So you're getting pulled in two different directions, opposite directions, and both those directions are correct. So that's what makes being a leader so hard. And some of the common examples that I was talking about before the show, it's like, is there, is there such a thing? Well, we, we know that a leader has to communicate, right? Obviously a leader has to talk to his

people. Can a leader talk too much? Absolutely. Can a leader talk too little? Absolutely. Where do you want to be? You want to be somewhere in the middle. Can a leader be too close to their people? Yes, they can. But can they also be too distant from their people and not understand what's driving them and not understand what problems they're facing on the front lines? Yes, you can be too distant from your people. Where do you want to be? You want to be in the middle somewhere. Can someone be too much of a micromanager? Well, absolutely, you can be too much of a micromanager. But the opposite of that is you're too hands off with your people and they don't even know what's happening.

So these are the different dichotomies that you as a leader have to balance. And absolutely, if I would have known this 20 years ago when I was starting in leadership inside the SEAL teams, yeah, my world would have been a lot easier and I would have been a much better leader. For sure, man. Dude, I'm not a very smart guy, so I didn't know what dichotomy meant. Vaughn, I know you knew what it meant. Did you? I had it pretty close.

Are you lying? No, I thought I had a basic idea. I was thinking more like paradox, but it's not really the same thing. But I knew it had something to do with opposing ends of things. You know what was cool about when I started reading the book? Dude, it just brought so much clarity like instantly because, uh, like I, I text you, I text you like right away when I was reading it. I'm like, Holy shit, dude, this is awesome. And the reason it was

awesome is because it really validated why I had made these mistakes in the past. Um, like for example, like the micromanaging versus hands off, right? You know, I was always the guy who was at one extreme or the other. And I would let guys get so far out that I had to micromanage them to bring them back in. And then I was like pissed, right? And I'm pissed at them because I'm like, dude, you were doing it right. But now you're so far off the radar. Like what the fuck are you guys doing? You know what I mean? And I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong.

And then when I read the book, I'm like, the lights went on, and I'm like, holy cow, dude, this makes perfect sense. And, I mean, it's been a week, but I can't, I'm so excited about what it's going to mean to our company. You know what I mean? Because it instantly made me realize, like, I know, I knew what you were saying, like, and I understood that, but I didn't understand that it was correct to have both things be right. Yeah. And that's, that's what's, that's, what's really nice about this is just the simple awareness that this

exists. The simple awareness that it exists allows you, once you see, it's like when you're, when you're, when you don't understand it, when you don't know it exists allows you once you see it's like when you're when you're when you don't Understand it when you don't know to exist. You're just shooting it. You don't even know where the target is, right? You're just pulling the trigger. You don't know what you're shooting at once you realize that hey, there's one extreme There's the other extreme I need to be balanced somewhere in the middle once you realize that it allows you to see it and then act on it as opposed to just Micromanaging too much. You don't know why everyone's gets frozen up and won't act, won't take any initiative anymore. Why, why won't they,

these guys aren't stepping on it. These guys aren't taking any, any ownership of anything. They're waiting for me to do everything. That's because you've been micromanaging so much. You trained them to be that way. And so then you go the other way where you just go, okay, I'm going to, I'm just gonna let them do whatever they want. And then they start running in random directions because they're not sure where they're supposed to go because they haven't been told. Well, now you've got the opposite problem on your hands. So when you realize that both those dichotomies exist and that you need to be balanced in the middle, it really, I think this book is going to help people immensely.

I mean, it is going to, first of all, if you're an inexperienced leader, you're going to read the book and you're going to like, you're going to read the book and you're going to like, you're, you're going to read it. And it's great because how, how you format it, just like an extreme where you, you know, you tell a story and then you tell the lesson, it's going to make sense. And it's going to help people understand that when you're beginning. But, but dude, if you're, if you're a leader, who's been leading for a few years and you're like, fuck dude, I just can't grasp this. It is going to change your life. Not just from an effectiveness standpoint, from a happiness standpoint, because I know what it's like to be

in that you're trying to run. I mean, dude, we've got seven companies, man. And we're, you know, between Sal, myself, Chris, and Jason, we're running, I mean, a million different things a day and being able to understand that it's not just something that you can do once or that you can set systematically and let it run itself is going to change our whole dynamic. Because, dude, now we know how to be in the middle there, and it's going to make us happier because we're not dealing with this crazy extreme from all the way over here and then all the way over there.

Yeah. And now you have like a little instrument panel in your head that's telling you when the engine's running too hot or too cold. Yeah, for sure, man. And this book, it's seriously the best book I've ever read about leadership. And I've read them all. And I told you that. Yeah, that's awesome. And I mean it.

And if you guys don't buy it, there's something wrong with your brains. A question that I had is, so I get the basic concept of achieving balance, but it seems to me that it's also true that depending on your staff and the people around you, that you're going to have a separate dichotomy for each person that you're leading. And you're going to have to, in some cases, you are going to have to swing a little bit more micromanaging and others, you know, macromanaging, whatever the opposite of that is. How do you do that without going insane? You're right. You do have to modulate your behavior and you have to modulate your leadership.

So let's just talk about that. If you got 10 people that are working for you, right, there's three or four of those people that are go-getters that are going to make things happen. They're fire and forget missiles. You give them a mission and they're going to go make it happen. There's two or three of those people that you're going to have to micromanage and hold their hands and guide them much more strangely. And there'll be some people that are in the middle. So the way you don't go insane is you're allowed to say, okay, my guys over here that are going to make this happen, don't need to worry about them. So the way you don't go insane is you're allowed to say, okay, my guys over here that are going to make this happen, don't need to worry about them. So I can focus on these

folks that need a little bit more leadership and management right now. And by the way, my goal is not to continue to micromanage them forever. My goal is to get them up to speed and get them where they're making decisions on their own and get them where they become fire and forget missiles. And then guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to put them in charge. I'm going to build a bigger team and I'm going to bring a new group in that I'm going to then train and lead up and get them up to speed as well until I just keep building my organization, until I'm filled with the kind of leaders that I want. And what I do when I have leaders that I want working for me, well now instead of looking down and inside of my own organization, I'm

looking up and out and I'm seeing where I can grow, where I can move. Like you got seven companies, right? If you had crappy leaders, what was the first one? A retail operation called supplement superstore. So at some point you got that to a point, you had some people that could run that without you really having to worry about. So then you could go, Oh, wait a second. What was your next business? Right? First form for your next, you said, okay, you know what? We could probably have our own brand right now now if you would have been sitting there trying to square away the stores you would have never thought of that right but luckily you got some leaders you you micromanage them i'm sure at first until they

got to the point where they were running it then you looked up and said you know what we can do our own brand right we can do this right and then you got control of that you built that again you did it again yeah now you're at number seven yeah, I think the biggest thing that I struggle with, and I think, and you would know this better than me because you speak to so many different companies, is thinking that a team, and I see this now. I mean, I don't do this anymore, but this was something I made as a young leader. But looking and managing the team as a team as as in saying like thinking they're all the same you know what i mean that you're dealing like kind of an evolution of your question

you know what i think a lot of young leaders they look at their team and they think they're all the same they think they think like them and that's how they fail at leaders they just talk to them like they're them right and it goes over their head. They don't connect with it. And then great leaders, what I observe, is guys who have to have a pulse on the individual components of each team, right? Yeah.

There's two parts that I'll talk about on that. Number one, if we're going on a mission, right? And I'm the leader. And I can carry a hundred pound rucksack 10 kilometers in two hours. And I plan my mission to go 10 kilometers in two hours with a hundred pound rucksack. And you can only, it's going to take you five hours. We're going to fail, right? We're going to fail. So I have to, I have to look at my team. I have to see what their capabilities are and I have to plan according to that. The other thing is, and this is a heavy one because it's a reality that a lot of people

don't recognize. You have to be, you don't, you don't get to be the leader that you want to be. You have to be the leader that your team needs. And you're right that different people need a different modulation of that leader. Dude, I right that different people need a different modulation of that leader. Dude, I love that. But a lot of times we think, hey man, I would, I want to follow a guy that just comes in here and kicks down doors and is going to, going to make things happen. That's who I want to follow. And so you think that's how I'm going to act. Well, the problem is your team is not all like that. And, and, and this is becomes a little bit tricky too. So does that mean we have nine different personalities

if we're running a nine-person team? No, it means that we carry ourselves in such a way that the different people on the team identify with the part of us that drives them. So it's a challenge. And again, you know what? Leadership is hard. Leadership is the hardest thing in the world.

The hardest job ever. Yep. I mean, I said the very first podcast I was ever on was Tim Ferriss podcast. And, you know, I said, look, he said, what's the hardest, you know, what's the hardest mission you, you planned? And I said, the, the, the, the, the planning of missions is not that hard. I mean, it's actually pretty, pretty damn straightforward. Hey, there's a bad guy here. We're going to take helicopters or vehicles. We're going to get on target. We're going to go in, we're going to kick in the doors. We're going to grab the guy. We're going to get back in our vehicles or back on our helicopters. We're going to fly back and we're going to, that's it. That's, that's the mission. It's not rocket science. The hard part

by far is you're dealing with human beings and you've got to get these human beings in, in that, in my old job, you've got to get these, these human beings who are also your brothers, who are also your friends. And you got to, you got to get them to take these massive risks of their lives, of their friends' lives to go and accomplish this mission. And when you deal with that over an extended period of time, it's a challenge. Yeah. challenge yeah yeah it's really it's really similar to business though don't you think because if you're a good leader in business you really love your team you know you always see this you see you see the society's what the portrait of a ceo in society is a rich dude that doesn't give a fuck about anybody and steps on everybody's heads and treats everybody bad but the truth of the matter is in successful companies that's really the case the case is the

guy who's running the company really really loves his team and wants them to develop uh to the point where a lot of times they become too close to their guys um and make that mistake. You know, I've done that a million times. Um, how, how closely would you say is leadership in the, in the teams to leadership and business? It's the same. Exactly. It's the same. Okay. So, okay. Are there differences? Yes. The big difference is the consequences, right? Yeah, people don't die. People don't die. Right.

Now, I work with businesses where people do die. You know, you work with a big construction company. Right. Your dad was in construction. I mean, like, you work construction. People get killed in construction. People get killed on the oil field. People get killed pouring concrete.

I mean, so there are jobs where there are huge consequences, but none of those jobs have a situation where there's another human being that's actively trying to kill you. Right, right. You got 200 people working here. There's 200 people that are feeding their family, putting a roof over their head, paying their vehicle, saving for college based on your decision-making process. That's a huge responsibility. And so you might, and I say this all the time, you might not be dealing with their lives, but you're dealing with their livelihoods. And if you don't feel the weight of that as a leader, like you said, if you don't feel the weight of that as a leader, you're not going to do a good job for that company. You've got to care about those people and you've got to want to make the right decisions to

put them in the right situation. Now, what makes it hard? And it's the same thing. That's the opening chapter of the dichotomy of leadership. And I call it the ultimate dichotomy. And it's the same thing. You know, that's the opening chapter of the dichotomy of leadership. And I call it the ultimate dichotomy. And it truly is. There's no greater dichotomy than what a combat leader feels on the battlefield, which is this. You've got these guys that you care about more than anything else in the world.

You've worked with them. You've trained with them. You've drank with them. You've eaten with them. You've gone through difficult situations with them. You love these guys. These guys are your brothers. And you would do anything with them. You've eaten with them. You've gone through difficult situations with them. You love these guys. These guys are your brothers. And you would do anything for them.

And what makes it even tighter is that you see and you know and you feel that these guys will do anything for you too. They will lay down their lives for you. And so you take these guys that you care about so much and what you're going to do with them as their leader is you're going to send them on missions that can get them wounded or killed. And that is, there's nothing there's for me, that is the ultimate dichotomy. And it's something that, you know, when I was on deployments and facing that every day, and then when I lost guys, I mean, there's nothing more challenging as a leader than to go through those situations.

Because guess what? When someone gets hurt, someone gets wounded, someone's get killed and you're on deployment, the deployment doesn't stop. The deployment's not over. The enemy doesn't take a break. Things that you have to continue on with your mission. And so being able to do that and, and, and having to do that as a leader and having to balance these, these incredibly strong forces that are pulling you one directions, you want to take care of your guys. And the other, the other

is you have a duty and you have a mission that you have to get accomplished. That's, that's the ultimate dichotomy. It's, it's, it's a, it's a ridiculous amount of responsibility. And I think any good leader, if you don't realize, and I like how you talk about it in the book too, how you talk about the differences, their lives versus their livelihood. I mean, dude, if you can't recognize that as a leader, there's something wrong with you as a person, because you, like you said, you've got people who are supporting their family, paying for their kids to eat, you know, and your decisions affect all of that. And I see a lot of guys that, that, that really disconnect with that as, as an owner of a company, but dude, their companies are never good. Their companies always suck. They always have high turnover. They always have people that aren't happy. They always have

people saying stuff about them on social media and they can't figure out why. And the reason why is because you don't give a fuck about your team, dude. And if you don't want to, if you don't want your, your people to care about your company, you've got to care about them first, you know? And I think that's something that, you know, people buy into because right now entrepreneurship is the hot thing, right? Everybody's an entrepreneur. But they think that being an entrepreneur is getting a widget and selling it via Facebook ads and this and that. And dude, that can get you some good success. I am getting somewhere with this. That could get you some good success. You can make some cash. But if you really want to become successful long-term, you have to know and learn and develop your leadership skills.

And I think I talk to these guys all the time and they're like, dude, I want to build a brand, but I'm just not a good leader. I'm just not a good leader. You know, that's not for me. I have guys in my own company that said, you know, I like to sell. I'm good at selling, but I just don't want to manage people, and I don't want to lead people. And I'm like, well, why not? And they're like, because I'm not a leader. What would you say to someone like that? Well, as you pointed out earlier, there's very few people that just feel out of the gate like, hey, I'm going to step up and start leading.

And what bothers me the most about the statement that you just made is it's people that are saying, hey, look, I'm not comfortable in a leadership position. Therefore, I am not going to do it. And to me, that's like just a giant cop out. You're throwing up the white flag, dude, in life. You know? Yeah. And, you know, we were talking earlier as well that, you know, like you said, you can reach some level of success because you can sell well. You can reach some level of success because you have some individual skills that are good. But if you want to actually achieve something meaningful, you can't do it alone. You can't do it alone. You can't do it alone. So you need to learn how to be a leader.

And there's no really no two ways around that. I mean, okay, I guess there is one way around it. You can just stay where you are and be an individual contributor. And some people like that. Yeah, they're great. And that's fine. Yeah. You know what?

You need those people. You need cogs in the wheel, man. But your goal should not, should be, your goal should never be to be a fucking cog. It should be to help the team win. And to help a team win, that means you've got to constantly be developing. I mean, dude, that's why you write the books, right? You write the books. Dude, if everybody was born a good leader, you wouldn't have books to sell.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's the truth. And like so many young kids, especially you guys listening and you're thinking, dude, I'm not a leader. Guess what? I wasn't a fucking leader either. Now I get paid a lot of money to go talk about being a fucking leader just like you do. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy. I was the worst fucking leader ever, dude. I told you outside I've ruined a ton of good people because of decisions I made. Cause I thought I knew what I was doing when I did it. And, um, and then, you know, it's funny because it's like the, it's like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Like when you think you're good, you

actually suck. And then when you actually get good, you realize how much you don't know. And we both said that when we were talking privately, you know, I said, dude, I've got a million miles to go. And you go, your exact response was dude. so do I. And I thought that was cool, man. And that explains a lot about you as to why you've been successful where you are. We used to, I made up this when I was running the training for the West Coast SEAL teams, I made up these self-evaluations where you could grade yourself on what your tactical prowess was, how well you interacted with your troops, how well you could simplify plans, how well you could assess dynamic situations. And the guys would grade themselves one to five, one being the worst and five being the best. And I just had the leaders fill out

these forms and didn't think much of it at the time. And then we had this guy that was really not a good leader and real arrogant, thought knew everything and i went and said you know let me look at these forms that i had these guys filled out so i pulled out his form and no kidding he graded himself fives across the board he was he was an expert the highest possible grade in every category that was in his mind and and he was one of the worst in fact he ended up getting fired fake it till you make it yeah and so once so once I saw that, I decided, you know what? And I pulled up another guy who is a great leader, who is just doing a fabulous job, really respected by his guys and by up the chain of command. I pulled out what he grade himself and he gave himself like 2.3,

you know, 3.1. And I actually pulled him aside and I said hey man you gave yourself really low grades you know what are you thinking and he said well you know like like the tactical decision like I always feel like I'm a little bit hesitant and I think I could do a better job with that and I was listening to him and it was like the the switch or the connection got made in my head that was one of the the strongest connections you know, because I mean, even extreme ownership, we talk about ego. That was one of the strongest connections that I made between humility being a positive thing and ego being a negative thing. Now, I have to clarify this because there's a dichotomy with that as well. Do you want to have people working for you that

are just all humble and no ego? They won't do anything. They don't care if they lose. They're just like, Hey, I'm not, I'm not that good. It doesn't matter what the score is. We just, we, we, you get a participation participation trophy. We're fine. No, we want people with ego. We want people that want to win. But when that goes too far and you give yourself 5.0 on every single category, you're not going to do, you're not going to, you're not going to make any adjustments. You're not going do you're not gonna you're not gonna make any adjustments you're not gonna improve on anything you're not gonna even listen to anybody that was the thing you'd see with with these egotistical seal leaders that we would fire because they wouldn't take any advice you'd have a guy that would done three or four combat deployments and

you get this other inexperienced person saying ah now the i i'm gonna do it my way right and and you just you need to hear that two or. Right. And you just, you need to hear that two or three times and you realize they've got a giant ego and you realize that they're never going to listen to anybody. And most important, you realize that if this individual goes over into combat in a leadership position, he's not going to listen to anyone and he's going to get people killed. Sure. And dude, not only like, and what's funny is, is the overinflated ego is actually a projection of insecurity. Absolutely.

And, dude, a lot of leaders talk about they think they've got to have all the right answers, and they think that if they ask their team anything that that's showing like, oh, dude, I'm a weak leader. But the truth of the matter is it's actually showing that you're very secure in your authority, and you look to your team for the answers because dude, it doesn't matter how smart you are. There's going to be shit that comes up that you don't know, especially when you're dealing with, well, when you're dealing with your subordinate leadership, they're on the front lines every day, right? They know and see things

that you don't know and you don't see. So when a dynamic situation occurs and you haven't been in that sector for a little while, and now you're supposed to have the answer or you jump in and you start giving orders. Well, people are thinking, well, you haven't even been here. How do you know what's going on down here? Whereas if you came in and said, hey, listen, guys, haven't been here in a while. I know this is a dynamic situation. What do you think we should do here?

Like you just said, that's not a sign of weakness. It's actually a sign of strength. Yeah, dude. I always tell people, I'm like, look, dude, being a great leader is not about having the answers. It's about figuring out what the best answer is and putting it into play. And guess what? A lot of times the best answer is not going to come from your own fucking noggin.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's going to come from the dudes out there doing the work. So in real practical terms, when you take the people who have the big egos, but maybe not so much that it's not correctable. And then on the other end, you have the people who are really second guessing themselves and maybe overly humble. Describe for us like how you get both ends to the middle. You know, this is a remedy that I have. That's a common remedy that I use to cure a lot of leadership problems. And that is when I get someone in a situation like that, I put them in charge of something.

I will take someone. And so when I have someone that has their egos maybe getting a little out of control, they think they're a little bit better than they are, they need to get put in check, I'm going to put them in charge of something. And what I put them in charge of is going to be something that is outside their capacity to execute properly. It's above their skill level. So when they go and they take charge of it, they're of course beating their chest like, yeah, I should have been running this the whole time. And then they actually get in that situation where they're supposed to be running it and they fail because they don't know what they're doing. And it was all in their head that they were so great so they're either there's two things that's gonna happen

either they're gonna fail and they're gonna come back with their tails between their leg and and you'll explain to him hey it looks like you weren't quite as good as you thought you were or before they fail you're gonna come up to him they're gonna come to you and say hey listen I'm not quite as good as I thought I was can you give me some help and and in either one of those situations they just got put in check. Their ego got put in check. They got humbled a little bit and that's positive. Now, if I get someone that's not confident, so other end of the spectrum, what I'm going to do is I'm going to also put that person in charge of something,

but I'm going to put them in charge of something that I know that they can do. And I know they can do well. And they're going to, they, you might actually have to kick that person in the ass a little bit and say, Hey, look, no, you can do it. Come on. You can make this happen. And they come to you and say, Hey, what do you think I should do here? Hey, go figure it out. You might have to urge them along, but when they get done, they'll do it. They'll do it successfully. And then their confidence will be increased and you keep, keep them on that track. Keep building their confidence, giving them harder and harder things along the way. What's cool about those two things is as I'm sitting here listening to that,

that I really like about that method is that both, a lot of times when guys who are leaders and they get someone who's too egotistical or too confident and they start causing, you know, issues with that, they'll just fire them. What I like about your solution on that is that it's actually development of both sides, right? Like, you know, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like a lot of leaders will just fire that dude who's getting too egotistical and too cocky, or they'll fire that guy who just can't make a decision. And the truth is that's your failure as a leader to see where they can develop. And what I like about that solution so much is that because dude your your goal your goal as the

CEO of a company where you have employees should be to develop them as much as you can and a lot of guys won't develop people because they're like well dude I don't have a place for that guy well guess what that's okay because if he comes to your company and he progresses and he he outgrows your company and goes and takes he outgrows your company and goes and takes a better job, guess what you did? You just created an advocate for you and your company that will talk positively to every single person at that company. Guess what?

You just gained a whole bunch of new customers. And so what happens, and that's worst case scenario, but what's probably going to happen is he's going to progress, your company's going to do better and you're going to be able to afford to keep them. I mean, AKA your company grows, you know? And I think that that solution that you have is so great because it, dude, it perpetuates growth. You know what I mean? And even if it's, I truly believe, dude, if you do right by people, good shit happens

to you. And, um, people will, you know, they like to poke holes and say yeah but yeah but yeah but that one time but we're talking about the fucking average here the average of shit is that if you do the right thing and you treat people good and you have their best interests in mind and you help them develop they 99 of the time are going to pay you back with goodwill for sure question what about somebody that is in the middle and that had that you see a lot of potential in but they're okay with being like a cog in the system hey if that's if that's where someone's at and that's what they want to do with their life then i'm going to get

the most out of them i can i'm going to try and develop them as much as i can and they reach a point you know that happens right there's people that they've got they settle in they settle in and you know i'm going to talk to them about it and i'm going to say listen here's where you're at right now and you know a lot of times people don't think about the future as much as they should and so i'll have that conversation with them as well and say okay you know i understand that you're comfortable right now you're working nine to five you don't want to put in the extra hours you don't want you don't want any more responsibility because managing people is hard.

You just want to keep doing what you're doing. I get that. I know your kids are young or your wife is sick. I mean, people have things going on in their life and they need to focus on other things. Hey, I just want to let you know that if you work hard right now for the next three years and you step up and you take this leadership role, that means five years down the road, you could be financially set for life. That could happen. You built a real career. You could build a real career. You could be at a position of authority where you won't have to

do as much and you can spend more time, but you're going to have to invest in what we're doing right now. So I just want to make sure that you understand that and you know and then people say look i get it but guess what i don't want that kind of stress in my life what i want is to get my paycheck i want a nine to five i want to be able to go home to my kids yep and you know what dude respect that's fine right exactly i don't i don't unlimited potential is not for everybody right right so when i have somebody like that what i'm gonna do i'm gonna get all i can out of them and like like you just said andy i'm still gonna take care of them right i don't i don't you don't look less on yeah don't look less on i actually respect that totally i respect when people are honest with me about that because dude what what happens is and this happens

this happens you know a lot to us dude i'll see potential in someone and i say dude this guy could run this this guy could run this this guy could take this this guy could own this and i and i try to get him to do it right and they're not doing it and then the guy comes to me and he says um you know hey dude look i got kids here i got this i'm at this point in my life and they're honest with me about it dude i respect that but what i don't respect is whenever i say that to them they're like yeah yeah yeah it dude i respect that but what i don't respect is whenever i say that to them they're like yeah yeah yeah yeah go i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it and then they don't fucking do it otherwise that makes me hate them and then i'm like dude fuck this guy

and i'm getting a new guy you know what i'm saying that's a definite problem because there's there's uh because i'm relying on that dude i take people at their word like if you tell me you want that then i say i believe you so let's work on it. And then I'm putting energy and coaching and all this stuff into them, and they're just dragging their feet. Yeah, so what do you do with a cog that you have to constantly micromanage? Well, this is where I was just going to go with this, because there's a dichotomy with this as well. And it's a dichotomy with extreme ownership of people say, okay, if, and you just said this too, Andy. Hey, if I get someone that's not doing what I need them to do, that's my fault, right? That's a great attitude to have. What can I do to fix them? What can I do to mentor them? What can I do to coach them? Those are great things

to think about. Now, sometimes you invest in someone, the coaching, the mentoring, the training, you do what you can, and they don't, they are not capable of doing what it is you need them to do. And at a certain point, you're investing into them, you're expending your time on them instead of on someone else, and they're detracting from the success of the team. Now, this is a problem. And this is where your loyalty to that individual, because we build loyalty with our team, right? We're loyalty to them, to each individual on the team, we build loyalty with them but if we have somebody that's dragging down the team our loyalty to the team trumps the loyalty to the

individual every time yes and and by the way as well if andy's working for me and andy's slacking and andy's not pulling his weight and i'm letting it slide and i'm letting it slide and i'm letting it slide what does the whole rest of the team lose respect? The rest of the team loses respect for me. They, then they start to slack. I mean, it's just a, it's an, it's a dysfunctional situation. So you have to, and these are hard conversations. That's a hard situation because people, you can literally ruin the culture of your company by letting someone stay who isn't doing their job is a it is a culture killer right for sure because then nobody trusts you as a leader and then they start taking advantage of you oh yeah yeah and they're like fuck it i don't have to do it either

and then all of a sudden dude you got a whole group of otherwise high performers performing at the lowest common denominator it's an awful. So there comes a point where as a leader, you've done what you can, you've invested as much as you can, and you have to be straightforward with that person. You know, that's what makes us feel guilty as a leader is when we go and fire someone and we haven't given the right counseling, we haven't been straightforward with them and we're just going in and firing them. Like, no, look, man, I talked to you for the last four months or whatever. Different businesses have different time cycles. You know, I work with construction companies there. If they miss a date on a job, they're going to, they're going to, it's going to cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So they have three, four, five days to figure out, you know what, this guy's not working. Here's your warning. Here's your, okay, here's your warning. You need to fix this by like tomorrow. Right. And then tomorrow they don't fix it. Okay. Look, I warning you need to fix this by like tomorrow right and then tomorrow they don't fix it okay look i told you yesterday to fix this it's not fixed you got another day and you're not going to be working here so that happens and other companies like a like a sales type company there's a longer window usually to get someone up to speed to try and train them and and hopefully they can get up to speed that might might take six months. But if after six months, you're still pouring assets and resources into this person and they're not performing where

they need to be, yep, it's time for you to make the hard decision as a leader. Talk to them and say, look, man, sales isn't for you. This isn't going to work. Is there anything else that you think you might be able to do here? Because this isn't going to work. Right. And dude, the dichotomy there too, as a leader, is when to pull the trigger. For sure. You know what I'm saying? It's like, how long are you going to coach this guy versus, you know, cause some leaders come in, they just fucking fire the dude, you know? And then if you do that, the problem is, is that you never develop anybody and you're constantly spinning your wheels at the base level, right? You bring in the new guy, the new guy doesn't have any skills. You fire the new guy for not having any skills. You bring in another. The new guy doesn't have any skills. You fire the new guy for not having any skills.

You bring in another guy. The guy doesn't have any skills, and it's just constantly repeating itself. But then you have the other kind of leader who lets the dude who isn't developing stay because, dude, he really cares about his people. He cares so much that he doesn't want to have that conversation. And then the leader lets that guy do exactly what we just said where he he he brings down the skill level of everybody else the care level of everybody else and now you got a real fucking problem because you just fucked yourself by loving this dude too much but what happens i got this big smile on my face because like i can see the light in your head it's just like so bright

you know why bro that's because i've done that. Yeah. I've done both of those. And what's awesome is as I started off talking about the dichotomy leadership, when you realize this, once you see it, now you go, okay, I've let this person be here too long. This is not good for me. I'm not being a strong leader. I need to get rid of this person. And you can make that, or you can say like, look, I want to fire this guy right now, but I haven't put any effort into it. You can scale it back and you can look and you can make that or you can say like, look, I want to fire this guy right now, but I haven't put any effort into it. You can scale it back and you can look and you can balance these two dichotomies because that's what they are. It's I would say that that dichotomy is the one that I've struggled with the most. Knowing when to say, hey, dude, this just isn't going to work.

And you know what helped me figure that out was looking. Well, first of all, I made that same mistake like 10 times in a row. Okay. So let's just be real. And I think what figured it out for me, what made me become the, because I was the guy who like just let the guy stay too much. You know what I mean? I was never a quick fire.

The first time I had to fire someone, dude, I fucking cried. Because dude, I love these dudes. You know what I'm saying? But this guy, I remember his name was Eric, and he was just never going to make it. Like, he was just never going to make it. Dude, I didn't have the skills to develop him. And honestly, I don't think I could have developed him to be effective here. And I remember, dude, I felt fucking terrible.

Like, I cried on the way home. Like, for real. Like, big 260-pound dude with a beard crying in his fucking truck. You know what I'm saying? But, and I'm not ashamed to say that because dude, I care about my people. But what made me realize to quit doing that was that, because I do truly care about them, was that I was holding those individuals back from finding success elsewhere by keeping them. Yeah.

And that's, that's another point is where, again, I talk about these hard conversations and a lot of people in leadership positions have trouble telling people what they're doing wrong and, and counseling them and letting them know. And that is actually, so having a hard conversation is the worst thing you can possibly do is, is not tell someone like if you're screwing up and I don't come and tell you, Hey, Andy, the way you're doing this isn't working. And I just let it go and let it go and let it go the reason i'm not the reason you're not telling me is because i'm your boy and we hang out and you care about me but the truth is yes is that you're not telling me yes because you care and if i truly cared about you i would tell you exactly so you could fix Dude, I have the saying that I say all the time is like being nice is not being nice. Being nice is telling the fucking truth.

You know, everybody thinks like being nice is like letting someone get away with something or letting someone slide or letting them get away with not developing their skills or a million other things. But the truth of it is, is if you really care and dude, some people will hate you for this, by the way, you know, this like, dude, some people you tell the truth to because you care will fucking hate you back for it. Now here's the dichotomy, right? Here's the dichotomy. Can you be too direct with people?

Absolutely. And the answer is yes. And so what, you know, if I come in, I'm like, Andy, you suck. This is horrible. And now you get pissed at me. Right. And now there's animosity as opposed to me saying, Andy, look, man, the last project that you just ran, I mean, you got it done and I appreciate it, but I think there's a lot of things that I, and this is where, this is where taking ownership is a little bit of a jujitsu move, right? I come in and I say, Andy, you know, that last project that you ran, you got it done. And, and I appreciate that you did get it done. But when I look at it overall,

I think it could have been done a lot more efficiently. And I think I let you down. I don't think I gave you the right type of guidance from your perspective. And you're looking back at it now, what do you think you could have gotten from me that would have made it run smoother? And now you open up, you feel like I'm asking for criticism myself. And what you'll, you know what normally a person says like that to that, they go, look, man, to be honest with you, you gave me what I needed. I dropped the ball here, here and here. That's right. And you go, oh man, okay, well let's get you trained in that and instead of me just attacking you with the truth which is like you drop the ball right and you suck right which is what i'm thinking in my head right right right instead i'm saying hey man where did i let you

down where they always own it they always own it because dude there's enough rapport there like they care dude they do care there's times where uh there's times where people say well you know if you take ownership and like if i said to you hey andy i think i dropped the ball and didn't give you the right guidance what could i have done better and you're like yeah you did drop the ball and some people are like what do i do now right and i'm like you actually are saying that not not to set the person up you're saying it because you believed it right if. If I give you a project and you fail, whose fault is it? It's my fault. Actually, it's my fault.

I'm the guy that's in charge. I'm confused on what you said. If I give you a project and you fail the project, I need to look at it and say- I was asking that as a leader. Dude, everything is my fucking fault. Yeah, exactly. But when I say something's my fault and you, as your leader, if I'm your leader and I say- I work for you.

Yeah. All right, that's what's good for me to hear. I say i say hey andy you screwed up this project it's my fault and you go yeah you're right it is your fault i shouldn't be offended by that i just because it was my too yes right i'm not that's the whole point right the whole point is like i'm saying this was my fault if i don't actually believe that and i'm full of shit well then that's that's that's that's you're gonna see right through that right right right but if right. But if you, if I say, Hey man, this is my fault. Here's the mistakes I actually made. That's a real, that you have to, you, you have to be in a place to fucking really own that shit. You have to believe it. You don't,

because you're not just saying it. The weak leader will come in and fucking try to set their dude up to say some shit and that's how they get thrown off right exactly so like but dude i i just i know everything's my fault you know what i mean so like it's i think that's the biggest quality of a leader is being able to check yourself and you know seeing if you're doing everything dude look man if you're in business long enough you're gonna figure this shit out like everything is your fucking fault otherwise you won't be in business long enough that's the truth yeah you know leaders that don't understand that they don't make it that far to figure it out because you fucking, your business goes out of business. You know, dude, you deal with all kinds of successful leaders. You know,

what, what would you say just to switch gears a little bit, man, like a well-intended leader? I mean, cause dude, you guys that can afford to pay what you charge they're successful you know leaders so what would you say a well-intentioned leader the common mistakes that you see made uh of a well-intentioned guy right not not a guy who's like a dictator but a guy who's really making an effort what would you say the most common things are yeah so this is a question I get asked a lot because people want to know what's the thing they should look out for.

And the bottom line is it's the same thing that we've been talking about, what you and I were talking about earlier, which is different people have different strengths and weaknesses. So when you go into a company, that company will have different strengths and weaknesses. Usually they're based on the strengths and weaknesses

of the leader itself. So if you've got a leader that's not a very good communicator and he's not getting the word out to the front line, that's a real problem. And so that's one type of person. You've got somebody else that's a great, great communicator, but guess what they're not great at? They're not great at understanding their strategy. They don't even know what their own real strategic vision is. And so when you go into a company, it could be so many varieties of things. Not so many. There's like a dozen things, right? Like a guy's not a good communicator. The troops on the front line

don't know what's going on. It seems complicated, but it's not. Yeah. But it's going to be one of those things. And usually they have complimentary strengths and weaknesses. So they're really good at something, but they're not so good at something else. Like you get a guy that's a great visionary, but he's not good at any of the details. So he's got this great vision, but none of the stuff is their operational execution is weak. So what do we do in a situation like that? Well, I like to tell that guy, guess what? You need to hire someone as your number two that has operational execution as an expertise and boom, that's going to bolster you up and we'll get this problem solved. Because it's not training somebody that's a visionary, that has that type of mindset to become executional, operational expert is very challenging to do, especially in a short period of time.

Yeah, it takes a long time. But bringing someone on board that has that different attitude. So the common problems are just those. There's a variety of common problems. So it's awareness problems. Well, yeah, people definitely have to be aware right but we're gonna find the different problems we're gonna figure out what how to how to solve that problem it's gonna be a little bit different at every company the reason i say an awareness problem is a good leader who's got it figured out already knows like hey what the fuck am i weak at like i know what i already know what i'm bad at

yep right so i surround myself like I'm bad at understanding technology. So I have guys that I talk to every day that, that are great at that. Right. Um, so I, I already know to fill that in. So,

so aware leaders are going to know that, right. For sure. Be like, and dude, they're secure, right? Cause a lot of people don't,

a lot of really, uh, guys struggle with, with doing that because of their own ego. They're like, well, I should know that. You know, and they won't bring anybody in that knows what they know. Yeah, well, that's an interesting point with my company is that, so we get it brought into companies for a variety of different reasons.

Most of the time, we get brought in because someone inside the company is saying, we need to get better at leadership. And when that's why you're getting brought into the company, saying, we need to get better at leadership. And when that's why you're getting brought into the company, that means right out of the gate, there's some humility inside that company. They're thinking, you know what? And this is also interesting. Which means they have the skills to get better. They have the skills to get better. They have the open mind to get better. They have the humility to get better. And by the way, normally those companies that are voluntarily bringing us into,

they're already doing, they're already successful. Like you wanted me to come and talk to your team today, right? I came and talked to your team. Your team is already kicking ass, but you're thinking, Hey, how can we get better? Right? So, so that's what happens when a good companies bring us in, their minds are open. They want to get better. The bad companies are the ones that are like, dude, I'm not paying that shit to bring it. Yeah. And this is so what happens sometimes is let's say for instance, the board that owns a company hires us to go in and help, help fix the leadership inside the company. So the attitude inside the actual company is, Hey, we don't need help. Why are you here? And by the way, the reason that the board is bringing us in

is not because the company is doing well. The reason the board is bringing us in is because the company is failing. So this is what it tells you. A company that is humble, the first companies that I talked about, the companies, most of the companies that we work with that are doing well, one of the core reasons that they're doing well is that they're humble and they're constantly looking to where they can improve. One of the reasons that companies are failing is because they're not humble and they're not looking to where they can improve. And also on top of that, the companies that are doing well, they take ownership and they say, you know what? We could be doing this better. The companies that are doing poorly and failing, it's never their fault. We go in there and say, oh, what's going

on? It's the market. It's the economy. It's the market. It's the economy. It's the competitors. We've been doing this for 50 years. Yeah. The guys on the front line are lazy. Yep. It's millennials. It's everyone else's fault, but it's never the leadership fault. When the fact of the matter is, and I tell this to companies all the time, every single

problem that you have at a company or any organization that you deal with, every single problem that they have is a leadership problem. All of them. Absolutely. All of them. Absolutely. All of them. Absolutely, dude. Absolutely. Can I circle back to your remedy of giving people things to do?

So it seems like in order to execute that, you have to really, really know your people. So the question that I had as you were talking about it earlier was, what is your method for sort of breaking down the game film of the people who work with you, of the people who are under your command? I mean, do you have specific habits? Like, how do you make your observations? How do you evaluate each guy? Yeah. Well, interestingly, it's also the remedy.

Like, when I'm starting to figure out what people are like, when I, when I bring someone onto my team, guess what they're going to do? They're going to run something and we're going to see where that they're going to run something at first. What are they going to run? They're going to run something that's pretty small. They're not going to, I'm not going to send a guy like right now with Echelon front, I'm not going to send a guy out on his first gig with a, with a, a fortune 500 company that's already signing a big contract with us and say, Hey, you take this. Cause that's an important client. And I don and say, Hey, you take this because that's an important client. And I don't know where the guy's at. What he's going to do is he's going to go,

you know what he's going to do? He's going to volunteer and do something for free with a boys club in, in Minnesota. That's right. And we're going to send up out there and see how it goes and get feedback. And I might go with him and watch and, and see where he's at, or at least get video and then talk to him. Hey, what had happened? Hey, you got to ask this question and it stumped you. You got to ask the question by a 12-year-old kid and it stumped you. That's not a good sign.

We need to work on it. We need to train you more. So when I get people coming on board, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give them small tasks in the beginning that are less important. I'm going to assess and evaluate how they perform. I'm going to, I'm going to make adjustments, course corrections on their performance, and then I'm going to give them something a little bit bigger and I'm going to give them something a little bit bigger. And then you know what I want them to do? I want them to take my job from me. I want everybody that works for me to be, get to a point where they can take my job from me. Just like you did at supplement superstore.

Right. Right. Like you probably, maybe you weren't consciously doing this, but some part of it was going, okay, well there you go. You're going, you know what? Somebody is going to have to run this for me. Right. Cause I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to take one more step up. There's people that through their ego, they don't want to let anyone else run their program. Right. They're going to ask their little baby. Yep. It's their baby. They don't want to let anyone else run their program right they're gonna ask their little baby yep it's their baby they don't want anyone else to touch it and you know what they do they stunt their own growth right so i want everyone that works for me to get good enough to take my job that's my goal me too man me too 100 you well yeah i mean dude this is an interesting topic

because you know you gotta actually come to work to do that right yeah i have to actually come to work because you know i'm at this place to where you know a lot of people that you know i don't want to say success because i'm not successful one bit but you know i've i've made it developing i've made it to a point to where a lot of people didn't think i would or you know i don't have a formal education or anything like that but you, you know, I'm definitely working on my leadership and that is, you know, for anybody out there that's listening that, you know, might look up to me, like you're going to run into the ceiling of, you have to be a good leader to take that next step. You have to develop the people underneath you to take over your job in order for you to move up. That's just, that's the way it works, especially inside an organization.

You see a lot of that, you see a lot of lot of that um at like the retail level where managers managers of a retail store they don't they don't want to develop the guy because they're afraid to take a job but what they don't realize is that that's the only way you're going anywhere it's the only way it's the only way i had a situation like that working with a company and one of the leaders was not developing his people and i said hey you know what and the ceo is kind of like hey what you know what this guy's just not he's just he just keeps everyone below him and he won't develop them and i said you know what next time you promote don't promote him and tell him why you don't promote him and he goes well why and i said you tell him that there's no one to take your place so i can't promote you it's the truth it's the truth it is

the truth i cannot in our retail three or four guys ready to take you. Yeah, bro. I can't fucking take, you know, a lot of these guys in our retail company, they're hungry to move. They want us to open more stores. They want us to do that. I'm like, all right, dude, like I could take you and put you over here, but what am I gonna do with your store?

You know? And then they're like, well, you can find, no, dude, I gotta take one of your guys and put them in that spot. You know? And until that's, until that's done, I can't, you can find, no, dude, I got to take one of your guys and put them in that spot. You know, until that's done, I can't, you're there. People fail to realize that, like, to me, that should be obvious, you know? Especially if you're looking at the bigger picture. I mean, dude, like, I'm holding your brand, your personal brand, back right now by not being good enough to develop the people. I fucking tell you that all the time.

But at least I'm aware of that. Complete your statement. You're holding the brand back by what? Because I can't put as much effort into Andy's brand as I should be able to. Because we use the same guys for first form and my brand. So like Tyler has to run first form. So

if he can't get the guys to do all the shit that he was doing for first form, we can't do as much stuff for personal brand. Gotcha. What are you saying? Makes sense. Which the truth of the matter is, is we're getting to the point where we need two teams. That's the bottom line.

Yeah. But that's neither here nor there. Well, that's also because we still have a lot of room for improvement on our team side. How many people do you have on your team? Five. And are they ready to step up and take your place no and that's on me yeah yeah yeah if you you should have you should be ready to split off those five guys into two teams that hire one more guy each you got two teams of three

and you got one working one element and one working the other one and guess who's in charge of them both you you should be yeah if you have like if you want to be if you would have asked him a year ago that okay if he would he would not have said that a year ago he what he would have said is those guys don't want to fucking do work they don't want to do this they don't want to do that and i'm i'm not that's a compliment to you not enough no i get it it's a yeah it's a growth thing and and yeah and if your team the people on your team don't want to do work whose fault is that it's mine of course 100 yeah yeah dude i dude you're making progress you know what i'm saying well i know i can actually feel it a year ago i shit you not he would have for sure said that's because they're fucking lazy or some shit

like that so and my brother's been working with him a lot, so it's, it's been showing the growth of showing. Oh yeah. So dude, what do you think? Uh, like, I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to know what you think.

What do you think the most underrated quality of leadership is? Most underrated. It's is most underrated it's it's it's to me it's the most important quality to say i give this answer all the time it's humility right dude i knew that's what it was going to be and it that's just what it is right and and if you if you're not humble that is do you think it's because like the way the way a ceo or a leader is painted in the in like in movies and shit like that because they're always painted as a dude who has all the answers like dude captain america comes down he's like do this do that do this do this and everybody just does the shit right like that's what people think it's like or they think it's like you know the ceo's sitting in a mile long uh wood table and and he's

like stevens you go do this uh you go do this bob you go do that and like he's like, Stevens, you go do this. You go do this. Bob, you go do that. And like, he's just got all the answers, but that's not what it's like at all. No. And you know, this was an answer that I even, again, the first time I ever got interviewed was on the Tim Ferriss podcast.

And he asked me what's the most important quality for a leader. And I said, humility. And people were really, I guess, kind of surprised that that's what I said for the very reasons that you just stated is because most people most people that are striving for leadership they you know this is what we talked about you have an ego like you got an ego I've got an ego guess what I want to win an ego is not a bad thing no it's not a bad thing it's a

good thing and that's what drives you you wouldn't where you are. I wouldn't be where I am right now if I didn't have an ego that didn't want to win. Right. And that's why, that's why for a leader, that characteristic is, is under appreciated because most people look at it and they go, that guy wants to win and he's going to do everything and he's going to make these things happen. When reality, a really good leader, the reason they're winning is because they're looking around going, what can I do better? Now I'll tell you what was interesting. I went up and talked to some underprivileged kids and I actually had to flip this because as I sat there and looked at these underprivileged kids from the inner city with broken homes, guess what I saw? i saw just total lack of confidence with all

these kids dude wait i talk about this so i have a pot where i talk about humility is overrated okay and people are like what the fuck does that mean blah blah blah you're you're an egomaniac and it's for the exact reason that you said dude there's, there's a dichotomy between ego and humility. Look at him using the word now. Right? Dude, I fucking love this because when I say that, people don't know what I mean.

That humility is underrated. Like they think like, oh, you're a huge egomaniac. No. But you got to have an ego to fucking work and go try and do things and you got to have confidence to dream that big that you can do certain things.

And dude, I find that people are either, there's very few people in the middle of that. There's lots of people who think they're awesome, you know? And then there's lots of people who think they're nothing and can't do anything. And so that's what I mean when I'm saying like, dude, humility is overrated. Like believe in yourself. You don't know you're the shit. Be a bad motherfucker. You know what I mean? And I think for me from working with companies like you said i'm working with companies these companies get these ceos of these companies male and female they didn't get where they were by having a small ego and by being humble and that's why again when people ask me about it in the seal teams you don't you don't become a leader in the SEAL teams by being a a you know a little tiny dude a little person that you've got to be

able to step up you've got to be at a minimum you've got to be confident with what you're talking about and and that's why it's surprising to people but like you're saying there's there's people out there that are at the other end of the spectrum that that's why it's a dichotomy there's people that and when I saw these kids i mean just just a bunch of kids you know between the ages of like 8 and 15 there was not a shred of confidence they've never even seen success and in any way exactly yeah and so what i was telling them well it's just like the simple things like okay hey kids stand up and i was making them talk loud because people that aren't confident, they don't feel comfortable talking loud. And you know what? Just like we talked about earlier in this podcast,

you can get more comfortable talking loud. You can get more comfortable talking in front of people. You can get more comfortable standing up straight and looking people in the eye. Those are things that especially younger kids that haven't really developed yet, that's a big deal. So when you say on your podcast, like, Hey, don't be humble. Those are the people you're talking to all day long and they need to hear it. And there's some people that don't have the confidence to step up and do a job. Those people exist, the people, you know, and then there's some jackass out there that hears you say that that's like, that's right. I'm the best ever. And, and, and Andy just told me i was the best ever and that i should go with that right like that person is gonna lose situational awareness isn't gonna see the

mistakes that they make isn't gonna know that they need to listen to other people and they're gonna end up getting crushed yeah dude the the the way to look at it like this is how i look at it right like i literally look at it as like a fuel gauge in your car okay like it, like this is how I look at it, right? Like I literally look at it as like a fuel gauge in your car. Okay. Like it looks like, you know, uh, it's a, it's a, it looks like a half of a circle. Okay. And on the one side you got E and on the other side you got F. All right. And that needle, let's just say on the left, you know, it's E not for empty, but for ego. Okay. And then on the right, it's H for humility. All right. And, and dude, you should be, this is where aware you said situational awareness.

This is where you have to be aware. This is where you have to know where your needle is at all times. And so, you know, it's okay sometimes for your E for the needle to go towards the e like for example dude i go and speak in front of 20 000 people my fucking needle when i go on that stage is pinned to e it's actually far past it okay but i let it get there and i try to get it there on purpose because dude if you can't go out with that with your needle pinned to e you are not going to fucking move people and get them excited and get them wanting to change. It's going to be impossible. You're going to go up there.

You're going to be scared. You're going to be stumbling over your words. So I let it get to E. There's other times when I'm sitting in a room with you who is the best in the world at what you do, in my opinion, and it's becoming more and more of a fact every day. Dude, you know what I do?

I don't sit here and think about how great of a leader I am. I let that needle go all the way over to age and I shut the fuck up and listen. You know what I'm saying? And that's what you have to do, man. It's got to be, I mean, it's funny, dude, because we're sitting here talking and literally everything we talk about is a dichotomy. And like, before I even got your book, I didn't know what the fuck that was, you know?'s it's uh yeah those that's you just explained one of the key dichotomies of leadership right that you can have too much ego and if you brought that attitude of if you pinned out the e and you went to a a meeting with some of your team and they had feedback for you and you were like you guys don't know what you're talking about. We're going to do it my way. That, that ego would kill you. Yeah. And at the same time,

if you went, if you pinned it out on the H and you went into your team and said, Hey guys, I'm thinking about rolling about out this new product, but I don't really know if it's going to be successful. I don't know if we have the, the wherewithal to make it happen. Well, that's not going anywhere either. Oh, so you gotta, you gotta modulate and you gotta stay balanced. That's, I think that's the hardest thing, not just as a leader, but as a person, you know what I mean? Like people, people like you guys who are listening right now, you know, there's time, this is like the imposter syndrome almost like there's times, and this is no bullshit. There's times where I feel like I'm fucking faking it, right? There's times when I feel like

maybe I don't know. And you know what? Guess what? All of us feel that way. We all feel like, Hey, we don't, maybe we don't know. Sometimes you just got to fucking guess. But the truth of it is, is that being aware of where you are in what situation and what's applicable and how, dude, that's the key, man. Like that's the key to growth of a company. It's a key to growth of, of your personal development. I mean, dude, and, and I feel like from, from, and dude, you speak to so many people as well. You know, I'd be interested to hear what you think, but I feel like people are, are way more towards the H than they are the E. And that's, what's keeping them where they are. That's what I see. Like I, I meet so many of these guys who do, they've got a little business going

and they're doing pretty good. And like, dude, I just heard this this weekend, this guy who's making everybody in our groups, making a lot of money, dude, this guy's making over a million dollars a year. And he's like, he's telling me right to my face. He's like, he's making a million, not the fucking company selling a million. This guy's making a million dollars. And he's like, he's telling me right to my face. He's like, he's making a million, not the fucking company selling a million. This guy's making a million dollars. And he looks at me, he's like, dude, I just don't know if I have what it takes to get to the next level. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about, bro? You've already built this to a million dollars.

Why can you not make it a hundred million or a billion? You can fucking have it. Most people say that at like 50K. I know, but that's the reason he's been able to make a million. Yeah. Because of that attitude. So I got to give him a little kick and be like bro you need to get over a little to the e a little bit right you know that's this is exactly what we're talking about yeah this is

the dichotomy this is the dichotomy and and there's situations there's people that get to a certain point and i know you've seen this too and i have too like there's people that are maniac egomaniacs and it gets them going oh yeah, yeah. I mean, they make a bunch of money. Right. But then what happens? When it comes time to go to the next level, they don't make it because somebody comes along and says, hey, instead of selling this, you should also sell that. And they go, I've been doing this for 14 years.

You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, right. Or maybe you should, I mean, look at Blackberry, right? Look at Blockbuster. Blockbuster could have bought Netflix at some point. Yeah, dude. And they didn't. Killed them.

Yeah, because they were like, hey, no, we got people coming in. We're fucking Blockbuster, dude. Yeah, we're Blockbuster. Yeah. Like, we're America on Saturday night, bro. Like, you can't fuck with us. And like, that's what killed them. That's what killed them.

Dude, I was sitting in a room. I did the math. I was sitting in a room, uh, at Dan Fleischman speaking event with, uh, in a group and that we were in the green room and in the green room, the collective net worth was about $3 billion. All right. And I'm sitting in the room and dude, everybody is crushing everybody. And dude, you would not believe the shit that they were saying. Like everybody would think like they were in there, like I believe it, but like everybody else would think like they were in there like telling everybody

like how good they were, this or that. Everybody in there was like, look, I don't know, man. I kind of feel like I got lucky. Like, I don't know, you know, like they're totally, and it wasn't fake. It was like, you know, I had a guy who sold his company for a billion dollars asking me, he's like, Andy, I don't know, man. Like, I know we did this, but what do you think about this?

I'm like, fuck, dude, you shouldn't be asking me. You know what I'm saying? But it's just an example of what we're talking about. The people who are the most successful are able to learn and they become students of learning. And the only way to learn is to put that needle over to the h man and shut the fuck up and something to tie into that one of the best leadership qualities and in team development qualities i've ever learned from you was even if you do have the answer and someone comes up to you with a question what's what's the question you what's the answer you give them always 100 of the

time i'll say what do you think what do you think you know same exact thing i do yeah i said in fact my guys would come to me and say hey hey jocko here's this mission you know how do you think we should do it i'd be like go figure it out come back and tell me yeah dude because that's a confidence builder right because most of the time they know yeah they're gonna get it somewhat right they're gonna get it close and maybe give them a little adjustment but we'll be we'll get close yeah i learned that from, by the way, that's you met my dad. So my dad's like, Oh gee. But, but dude, it's funny because you were mentioning the hit, how it doesn't change over, over time. Like this is one skill that does not evolve and it does not change. We're dealing with

human beings. So human beings, and it's interesting too dude because like you said millennials earlier and i am like super pro millennial and and so many guys they make dude you've heard all the shit millennials are fucking lazy they're this or that dude well how the fuck do you explain my company because i have 200 employees here and five of them you saw them are not millennials so how do you explain that it doesn't change you know that's just an excuse that people lose but my dad you know he was uh he would he would dude my dad would like tell us this he's like look like he would tell me this you know when we first started getting employees he's like dude the best thing you can do let me

tell you the secret to leadership this is all it is just ask Just ask them what they think. That's what he told. And I'm like, Dad, that is not a leader. I've seen leaders. That's not what they do. You know what? He was right. Your dad was right. Yeah.

Your dad was right. You know, when people ask me how to get buy-in, which is a big thing. Oh, I can't get people to buy-in. Well, ask them how they want to do it. And then it's their plan. They bought into it. Yeah. Done.

And you know what's interesting about getting buy-in too is that you don't always have to do their plan. A lot of times, I would say most of the time, you tell me what you think, but I would say most of the time, they just want their idea heard. They don't actually need to have their idea chosen. They just want to be heard. They don't want to be directed like, you know,

like a bunch of little robots. They just want to be heard. So like you ask your team, you got 10 guys there, you there you ask each one hey what do you think we should do what happens is is you start at chair one hey what do you think you should do and the guy says well i think we should do that and you ask the next guy well i think we should do most of that but i think we should change this and this and the third you ask the third guy he's gonna say you know what i like both those ideas but you know what about this by the time the motherfuckers get done and they go all the way around the table, the

idea is there. The idea is there. And now everybody's bought in. It's not that hard. Absolutely. Absolutely. I see people fighting all the time over, they have my idea versus your idea. Both the ideas are fine and they want to fight over it.

Right. And it's totally worthless. Yeah. Messes up the relationship. And finally, when I say, you know what, Andy,y i'm in charge you do what i told you to do it's a disaster you go in the field and you just you're gonna you're gonna sabotage it right you're not even gonna do the idea because you want the idea to fail to shove it down the other dude's throat exactly yeah dude and that's that really is a culture problem like now what we're talking

about is two guys who dude i do this sal and i do this sometimes like because we're brothers all right people ask like what's it like to work with your brother this is what it's like we both want to win so fucking bad and we both believe that we're right that we actually lose sight of the of the bigger mission sometimes and usually ends in a fist fight so it ends like two gorillas fucking beating each other up in the like it was what about a month ago a month ago yeah so like what the fuck yeah by once a year it gets into a we're getting into a fight and uh but really the truth is is that's a time where we should step back say look dude we both want to win all right your idea is good my idea is good which one are we going to do yep you know and you know what i'm going to do

in those situations i'm going with the other person's idea. If I, if I'm even, if I have that opportunity, if you're, as long as your idea isn't just garbage, right? If it's close, if it's going to get the mission done,

we're doing it your way. Yeah. And that, that's a good way for me to prove to you that like, Hey, I trust you. Yeah. I'm humble.

I listened to you. Good point. And you have buy-in and, and you're going to work so hard, especially if we went, if we, if you know, I didn't really a hundred percent agree and I want to do my way, but I gave it to you.

You're going to get out there and bust your ass to make it work. That's right. And that's what I want. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. That see, that helps me just now for real. Like you just helped me become a better leader.

Anytime I can, anytime we can, anytime a subordinate comes to me that has a plan of any kind. And that's my goal is to get that thing executed the way they're doing it. Yeah. Because it's just a win across the board. Yeah. Because they, like you said, they are going to make sure, you know, that it works. Not to mention, but the leader might not actually see the full vision that the other person has. This is true. The leader sometimes doesn't know the details that are happening in the front lines. And so that's why it's important to pay attention to what they're saying. Also, dichotomy.

The frontline troops don't always see what the big picture. And so you have to marry those two things together. And that's why you come up with not just whose idea, you come up with the best idea. That's something that I think for us, people ask, how have we gotten first form to do what it's been able to do uh because dude we started with nothing i mean i i was picking up product literally in the back of my pickup truck and storing it in my garage that's that's how it was um you know we didn't have

investors we didn't have you know people who you, by that time my dad had made and lost his money. We didn't have people to give us money. It wasn't, it wasn't an option. Um, the, the best thing that I've been, I think that we've been good at and people ask like, how have we done this? I think that's this I've been, I, and I'm going to give myself some credit, which I don't usually do, but dude, I've been really good at painting the fucking vision like making sure these guys understand what the big vision here is what the scope of it is and so many leaders um and I don't even like to call them leaders I call them business owners because they're not leaders all they care about is how much money they're making and they can't figure out like they look at us and they say well dude how the fuck are you guys doing this and I look at them and I'm like dude it's pretty obvious like all you give a shit about is how much

money you make and you haven't painted a big enough vision to where every single other human that works for you can find a place underneath that vision to be successful yeah just like just like life if you're in life if you always go for the short-term gratification, then your long-term goal is going to suffer. Just like in business, if your immediate gratification is we want money, and you're not looking at the long-term strategic, because let's face it, the decisions that you make today for immediate gratification of cash are not generally in the best interest of the long-term

strategic movement of the company. Dude, what was cool, and I know you probably thought this was cool too, when you were talking to the team and you said, dude, our goal at Echelon Front is to help people. I don't care that the book is called Dichotomy of Leadership and Andy doesn't understand what that means. What I care is that the material in that book is going to help people. And what did I do? Yeah, you turned around, looked at the team and said, what are we here to do? And everyone said, we're here to help people. That's right.

And if that's your goal, the other things are going to fall into place. In this case, with Echelon Front, we write a book. Our purpose in going out and working with companies is to help those companies win. That's right. What's a byproductproduct. We get paid money and you go out and help people get in better, better physical condition and make them healthier. What's the by-product you get paid. Dude, I thought I, I'm so glad you were here to witness that because I talk about that concept so much and people will hit me up and they're like, dude, you're just saying that shit. Cause it sounds good. No, I'm i'm not i literally all i talk about within these walls and and a lot of people they don't believe it because they're not here to see it but all we talk about is how we can

help people get better results how can we help people lose that weight how can we help people become more confident how can we help them in any way anyway dude we had a we had a guy call in these spark plugs our dude fucking got him spark plugs you know what i'm saying how can that's true how can we help them and dude that's why we're successful and that's it that's any business too you know but dude it is business that's all you're doing all you're doing is trading some sort of help for money that's it you're trading you know uh cleaning someone's house you're trading of somebody designing a logo that's going to help you i mean dude it's just trading it's boring it's fucking simple like i am not a smart person and i understand this

cost the only reason i'm able to execute this concept is because i don't complicate it you know what i mean yeah the first 10 years i was in business, I wanted money. I wanted to make money. I want to be rich. I want to be a baller, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? I was fucking broke when I had to figure out how to, you know, I had, I had a little time where I'm like, fuck dude, I'm not making any money doing this. I had to think about what I want to do. I could go back and work construction. I could pour concrete. I'm like, ah, fuck that. I want to do that shit. You know, I can make some money doing that. I don't want to, that shit. I could make some money doing that. I literally made less money than I would make at McDonald's working at our company.

And I was like, you know what? I do like helping people. It's pretty cool when someone leaves and they come back six months later and lost 100 pounds. That's cool. I like that. You know what? We're going to do more of that. And guess what?

Guess what happened when we started doing more of that? We fucking made money, man. It's not that hard. You know, uh, people complicate it, man. I just, I don't know, dude. Like I could sit here and talk to you for fucking days about business and life and you know, all this shit. I just, dude, I just want to tell you, man, you really are helping people appreciate like this building that we're in., I just want to tell you, man, you really are helping people like this building that we're in. Uh, the people that you met, they would not exist if it wasn't for the shit that you're doing. That's the truth. I appreciate it, man. It's, uh, it's awesome to come to this company, come to other companies that I work with and, and meet people all around the world. You know, they, they read the book, they listen to my podcast and they reach out and

they get, they get helped. And so that's, to me, that's the reward. Yeah. I know you get read the book, they listen to my podcast, and they reach out and they get helped. And so that's, to me, that's the reward. Yeah, I know you get to see it, you know, and people tell you that. But, like, what you just did, like, those are all younger people, you know. Like, you're truly helping people, bro. And I'm just super grateful for it, you know. And I know, like, you know, we have competing podcasts and, like, you know, we have competing podcasts and like, you know, we're all, you know, I want to win.

I want to fucking beat you in podcast ranking. You know what I'm saying? And I know you're the same, but the truth of the matter is, dude, if you listen to the show and you're not listening to his show, you're missing out, dude. You guys should all go to his show and subscribe. You should all be, you know, participating and bringing friends to his show and doing the same thing you do for this one because it's real shit. It's a real life, how to win, how to be successful, how to move people. And, uh, we're just saying a little bit different way. And I love that about you, bro.

Indeed, man. Well, I appreciate it. Yeah. So, uh, dude, with that being said, um, guys, if you're listening, please do what I just asked and go to his show. Give him a follow on Instagram and make sure you're consuming his content and make sure that you buy the dichotomy of leadership when it comes out. And I'm not just you guys know I don't pitch shit. I don't I don't ask you to buy things unless they're good because I don't want to violate that trust. This is a book that you have to read. When does the book come out?

September 25th. OK, so we got like a couple of weeks. Can you preorder? Yeah, you have to read. When does the book come out? September 25th. Okay. So we got like a couple of weeks. Can you pre-order? Yeah, you can pre-order it. Yeah. So in fact, if you want to get it when it comes out, you should pre-order it because otherwise it'll be sold out. That's right. So dude, thanks again, man. I appreciate it. It's been one of my absolute favorite shows that we've done. And just thank you. Thanks for having me on. And thanks for what you're doing. Kicking ass in the world, giving stuff away for free, giving away as much knowledge as you can trying to help people. And I can see that's coming back. But the real reward is seeing that you're helping people all over the world. So keep kicking ass, brother. I appreciate it, brother. you