Real Kyper & Bourne - A GM's Role Off the Ice + Reviewing the Young NHL Stars

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne are joined by former NHL President and GM Doug MacLean (2:25) to chat about J.T. Miller's return following a leave of absence, his experience handling players' issues off the ice, why there's more to the general manager's role than constructing a team, how to judge coaching when there's a lack of talent on the roster, and why change is on the horizon for the Detroit Red Wings. Then, Nick and Justin bring on Jason Bukala (33:26) to take an early look at the 2024 World Juniors, Gavin McKenna's projections, then to the NHL with Macklin Celebrini's season with the San Jose Sharks, and Easton Cowan's value on the trade market.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

we're back on this friday the 13th will doug mclean bring us good luck or bad luck always good luck always good luck on off the rails friday this is the national hour we are live on sports at 650 in vancouver sports at 960 in calgary this hour of real kipper and Bourne brought to you by Bet365. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, and no Sammy. No. We lost him. He went to Oshawa Generals game.

He's got the Oshawa Generals game tonight. He's got Buffalo. No, he's got Leafs Detroit on Saturday night. And then he's got the Bills and the Lions and he has to get his mama Christmas present still yeah like I'm the Stanley Cup champion here I know and I want his life oh I know at least I want his weekend it does sound pretty darn good although he does have to take the Canadian dollar into the U.S., and that's a tough, tough go right now. He can handle it.

I'm sure he can handle it with the success that he's had from being like a nobody, a nobody to the star of our show, right? Cult following for McKee. All right. We'll get to Doug McClain soon enough. Plenty to get into, including JT Miller's return. Top of your head, what you saw, what you liked, what you brought. I liked the fan support right away. Immediately, JT Miller chants from the crowd, which was great.

Two assists. He was named one of the stars of the game. Was involved. You know, like I just thought that as you work your way back into things, that was a really nice way for it to happen. And I think that's a pretty good test for them, right? Florida Panthers, they lumped them up 4-0. So good start getting back into it.

Yeah, I think it wasn't perfect the way he, I thought, addressed the media, but he's JT Miller. Like if anybody can kind of get away with leaving people with kind of open-ended questions, it's probably him. He's a unique personality. You know, like he doesn't, he doesn't, oh, hold on. Speaking of unique personalities, I'm going to let you handle this. All right. Let's go to uniqueness doug mclean in florida okay i just said i wanted to be sammy mckee this weekend but if the if it was longer i'd say you

well i had an 89 today at delray dunes you're not happy with that till i missed the last putt and i had a 90 almost you know what almost 89 you know what you wouldn't recognize me as a golfer today i have my game has grown i played i played delray doomsday which is a beautiful private course friends of mine um we stopped at the bank on the way there because i said to them you know we want to pay we you know we don't want to you know you guys are members and we're gonna you invite us this beautiful country club we want to pay so the guy corner the guy after we finished playing after i had my nine and i said look i want to pay. So the guy, I cornered the guy after we finished playing, after I had my night in, I said, look, I want to pay.

And he said, oh, no, you're not paying. You're not paying. I mean, we'll go to, you can take a dinner sometime. I said, okay, well, keep it between me and you so I don't have to give the money back to Jill. Doug, do you have a temper on the golf course or no? No, look, I've cleaned up my attitude. I came home a month ago with my guys I play with every Sunday and Wednesday, and I was sour.

I had a bad attitude. And I went back and I told them the next week, I said, if I'm not the perfect golfer, not golfer, but the perfect etiquette guy, I'm going to quit golf. I i am not gonna have a bad attitude anymore my attitude is golden my attitude now is the very same as when i worked at hockey central at noon it's perfect it's perfect yeah and you're also the guy that that threw gum at referees. Yeah, I know. That was bad.

That was not pretty. That was not pretty. Anyway. Anyways, we just, before we. Guys, thanks for having me on. I had to rush from the golf course to get here. And Jill cursed you guys the entire trip back from the golf course. She knows we're trying to get your career jump started. She hates Fridays.

Yes. Just talking JT Miller, Vancouver Canucks. We think he tried his best to clear the air with Vancouver media. I'm not sure. Don't ask me any questions about where I've been for 10 games. Fair or not fair? I thought he could have given, look, I know it's a private thing. I don't know what it was.

I've heard a lot of rumors. As I've said many times, I'm not telling you it's the truth. I'm just telling you what I heard. But look, he has that right, I I guess I suspect he's told his bosses what the situation was and that's all he has to tell is his bosses and he missed 10 games and it's it's a pretty big loss for the franchise pretty big loss to the his teammates and I'm sure he obviously needed the time away and you can And you can never judge anybody on that.

And we know what this guy, how hard this guy plays and competes. And everybody has issues and they have to resolve them. Doug, when you were running teams, did you deal with players coming to you and saying, Hey, I got personal things. I can't do the professional things right now um you don't have to give specifics obviously no i'll just give you an example i i was getting ready to go to the airport to fly with the team and i get a call from a a wife and she said uh my husband is, he was injured with me at the time.

He said, look, uh, he's, um, catching a flight, uh, home and he's going to kill me. I said, what? She said, yeah, he's catching a flight and he's, he's come, come, coming back. And he, so I phoned my assistant, Chris McFarland. I said, C-Mac, you get to the airport. This is the airline that flies to this city. You get to the airport because he was 10 minutes and I was 25. And do not let this guy get on a plane.

I raced to the airport. So he phones me. I got him. I said, I'll meet you at the McDonald's, which is right off the Columbus airport. I meet there. And I take the guy. And he's, you know, we, C-Mac. When I said to C-Mac, do not let him get on the plane.

And C-Mac, how do I stop him? I said, do you own a gun? Anyway, I'm joking. But anyway, he raced get him i get in the car with him and i'm trying to calm him down settle him down and i drive him right to on the way there i phoned our team shrink and said i'm bringing this guy right to you and that was one of the worst days of my life as a general manager and it was it was scary and the kid ended up going to rehab for probably a month and when he was in rehab I traded him wow I mean that's terrifying it was

scary you know it was scary and then you so, look, players are the same, and not that that has anything to do with what JT's issues were, but, look, the issues – I was thinking the other day about the role of a general manager, and, yeah, team construction is the number one thing we all talk about, how they construct their team. But there's so much more to the job as a general manager from what I just described to what happens in every day. It's all-encompassing.

People have no idea what a general manager is. I was about to say that. The only way the fan can identify things like this is when they see a player disappear for 10 games but it's happening to a lot of teams a lot of general managers a lot of presidents where they have to deal with this stuff like we're talking about 22 23 kids you know on a roster listen there was a time when the gm you know it was it was hockey it was trades it was minor leagues but now if you notice gms are with the big team 85 of the time why are they with the big time big team 85 of their time because they're putting out fires constantly

whether it's in the dressing room, whether it's with the coaches, whether it's with the media, it's putting out fires constantly. And that's why the GMs are with it. That's why GMs, they don't scout. They scout once in a while. They'll go and watch a key guy every once in a while. And, yeah, they get blamed for the draft. But even when I was there, I would get out and see the first and second round picks.

And the scouts didn't even want me seeing those, you know, because, you know, when you don't see them enough, you shouldn't be making the call. So GMs, it's an all-encompassing job, to say the least. And I watch guys, and I'll tell you the pressure. The pressure. Owners get to hate coaches really fast, but they also get to hate GMs almost as fast today.

So one of the things that you hear about the Vancouver Canucks is maybe some fractured relationships within the dressing room. And I have no knowledge of this, no inside information, but you do hear people talking about potentially a situation with JT Miller and Pettersson. Yeah, the Vancouver media talks about it. And, you know, Macca, just if there is something going on in general with teams,

with top players not seeing eye to eye or not getting along, at the end of the day, can you find a way to still make it work or will it always maybe find a way to come back and bite you? You know what? You know, with players, you try to do everything you can. And players just want to sit with a GM and talk. They want to have the opportunity, same as they want to with a coach. And I think if you're a GM in today's NHL, you've got to be open and direct in hitting these decisions and these discussions head on. Look, it's not unusual for players to have a battle in the dressing room.

It happens all the time. It happens all the time that teammates don't get along. There's 23 guys, and you're going to have guys you don't particularly like. You're going to have guys you don't like as personalities. You're going to have guys you don't like as personalities you're going to have guys you don't like the way they play you know so you you have to you have to work with them and try to not talk them into it but show them both sides of the picture and that the team is always bigger than two guys that don't like each other you always have to express the whole team thing front and center. And I never really ever had a situation in my 24 years in the NHL, whether it was coaching or managing, that guys couldn't make.

They weren't always buddies, but they could coexist. That's for sure. So this time of year is a special time of year, Mac, for, you know, hockey teams. Why? Christmas time. That's why. It's the holiday season, Mac. You picked out gifts for my panel here?

Did you do Christmas parties? Did all the blue jackets and red wings? I wish I was at the cottage. Like, I've got 30 jerseys i'd like to get rid of we need them since you guys are whining about jersey oh i'd like a jersey seriously we can't afford them mac we can't afford them i'll never forget we'll take your gretzky we're walking out of the all-star game in san jose when i was the all-star coach and clark's walking out he's got his wing gretzky jersey on and Ron Joyce the former owner of Tim Hortons who was at that time a

minority owner of the Calgary Flames and he said to Jill he said you're not going to let your kid go outside in San Jose with that jersey on somebody would kidnap him not not for your kid, but for the jersey. Well, throw it our way if Clark doesn't want it anymore. But, Mac, did you guys throw Christmas parties? Was this a big part of the team morale at the time? Well, we had the Christmas skate, which was always fun. You know, it was always – Jill used to love going to the Christmas skates or going to the wives room because it was always three wives that hated my guts. Or there was three players at the Christmas skate that hated me.

So you always had to warn them before you got to the Christmas party, Christmas skate, the wives room, who you benched, who you're sending to the minors. No escaping it. That's great. Yeah, no escaping it that's great yeah no escaping it uh fun times where do you want to go around the the league uh in canada uh the oil is sinking i wish i had a job if i was a general manager president of a job i'd call a guy in i'd find a top goalie guy, okay? And I'd call him in, I'd say,

okay, I've got some good news and some bad news. I'm going to give you $500,000 to scout for me this season. $500,000. The bad news is you're going to Russia for a year to find me the best goalie in Russia you can find and bring me back a Shostakhin, a Vasilevsky. Sorokin. Sorokin. Bring me back one of those goalies, because as I watch games every night, the number one reason you win or lose in the NHL is goaltending.

And that's what I'd say. Fine. Go to Russia and spend a year there and bring me back. One of those guys that are like those big three. And if not, you know, so the Oilers, listen,

the Oilers, the Oilers look good and Skinner looks better there. I don't think they need to send anybody to Russia right now. What did you just say? He looks better. Yes. Better than he started the season. If you're going to win the stanley cup you typically need to look

better than better okay all right what i mean you you've got to be unbelievable is what you've got to be to win the stanley cup you've got to be one of the great goaltenders you know to win that that's or you've got to have a vegas blue line in front of a six foot five goaltender. You know, it's and I, you know, I watch every night and you know what? There's still teams that goaltending costs them every night. There's games that goaltending is winning for teams every night, but it's so tough. And I was thinking the other day, it hasn't really changed, okay?

If you're building a team, you've got to go skill and speed. Skill and speed. Then you've got to have players that are hard to play against, difficult to play against. And the third thing is goaltending. Tell me that hasn't changed in 20 years. That's still the three elements that you need to win in the nhl and it seems complicated it does the uh i guess the piece of that um

missing a little bit is is the coaching element and how important it is right now there's some teams that are not doing great how do you judge the coach of a team that doesn't have talent you know like i'm looking at like how do you judge marty saint louis or huska or brunette or some of these guys labialet cronin how do you judge a coach who doesn't have a ton of talent you know what it first of all if you're coaching in the NHL, you're a good coach. You've had a good record. You've done some really wonderful things to get a chance to be an NHL coach. But you still need great experience to win the Stanley Cup.

Like I think about Mark Crawford. We were in the NHL at the same time. OK. Doug McClain gets his first head coaching job and it's with the expansion Florida Panthers. Then I get my next head coaching job and it's with the expansion Columbus Blue Jackets. Crow, he goes to Colorado with his first job. Then he goes to Vancouver. Then he goes to Dallas. And I'm thinking, what the hell is wrong with me? What is this guy getting? What has he done to get these jobs? And I'm getting expansion jobs. So what's coaching? It's about what the situation is and what organization you're in and what the players are like and what the team is like.

Would it be easy for Barry Trotz right now to fire Andrew Burnett? Yeah, it would be. It's not easy because Andrew did a great job last year. I mean, he wouldn't let them to go to a concert and they play 120 in a row he's gonna come up with one of those things this year can he let them go to a taylor swift concert see if it can be a team building thing for them what the hell can andrew do trotsey, I'll tell you why Trotsky probably, look, you think about it all the time as a GM, but you don't really make the decision.

I'm sitting in my office at 11 o'clock. We just lost 5-0 to Nashville and Columbus. 11 o'clock in the morning. Dave King's my coach. I get a call at 11 o'clock. I pick up the phone. Hello? Yeah, Mr. Mack here. Hey, Mr. Mack, how you doing? I'm not doing very good. We lost five nothing at home tonight. I said, yeah, I know, Mr. Mack. He's 80. Doesn't know anything about coaching. Fire the coach

tomorrow morning. I said, Mr. Mack, who's going to coach? He said, you are. I said, oh, okay. So I'm the president, GM, now I'm the head coach. I got to go in and tell Dave the next morning that he's fired. Can't tell him it was the owner that made me fire him because you can't do that. You can't let that get out. You take the hit for it, you know? And so 90% of the coaches that get fired in the nhl it's not barry trotz doing it

and it's not x gm doing it it's when the owner phones the gm and says fire labulette or fire brunette and it's the owner that does it 99 of the time it's not the gm and if you believe that you're in la la land it's the owner that makes the call and here's the problem as i just said they get to hate coaches really fast owners yeah gm's not so fast but they get to hate coaches really fast. How do you think the valuations of teams are such now that not many individuals can afford to own teams? Do you think that's going to change as more conglomerates own teams? No, because there's always one main guy.

And the owners, they think it's really easy. They think it's really easy because they built these major corporations. Just take the guy in Utah. He starts this data company. He's so successful. Or the guys all around the league. They're major success stories, which you have to be. And they think that they built these major organizations

because they're really smart. They're geniuses. Or maybe it was because they got lucky a lot of them. Maybe that's why. And maybe with the NHL, when they think it's so easy to build a winner like their company was, it's not the same. Running a professional sports franchise is not the same as running a major corporation where you get sometimes lucky. Sometimes lucky and become a billionaire. Let me ask you about the Montreal Canadiens

because I think they won three out of four and then they lost last night. And it's just not... Didn't they lose 9-2 last night? It's just not a loss. It's a 9-2 loss. At home. At home.

Is there damage to that? Like, is there kind of... When you lose 9-2 at home like that, it's not just a loss. Did you see this? Did you see the lopsided scores last night? I mean, it wasn't another one, 8-1. I mean, like, it's been bizarre lately,

some of these scores, you know? And that is not, you're right. That is a devastating loss. You think you're making a little progress, and then Pittsburgh come in and beat you 9-1. Pittsburgh, who for most of the season haven't been able to get out of their own way. In the last 10 days, they've been better.

And they beat you 9-1 like that's that is that is so bad it's so disheartening you know it's and that's what really pisses owners off those ones yeah mac what's your what's your worst all-time loss, Mac. 11-12. I remember I was coaching in Colorado, and after the first period, it was three games and four nights. We were in Colorado. They had a hell of a team. And we're down 5-0 after the first period. And I'm thinking, I go in and I'm sitting there with the assistant coaches

and the coaches are always saying, guys, are we going to lose 15-0? I mean, we've got nothing in the tank. We've got nothing. And we ended up losing the game. I think it was 7-4 or something. And I thought, oh, my God, that may have been the best two periods I've ever been around in my life. I thought we were going to lose 15-0.

But I don't remember what you know i had some bad losses there's no doubt about that but you know that uh i don't i don't recall a nine one at all i'll never forget uh hitchcock but he was i'm not sure what what he was going for his 500th win or something his career was in columbus and they were playing detroit and it was in Columbus, and they were playing Detroit, and it was a big hoopla, big hoopla. Hitch was going to win this 500th game he was coaching or whatever, and the players were so sick of all the interviews about Hitchcock, Hitchcock this and Hitchcock that. Anyway, I don't know if you recall, but I think Detroit lost.

Detroit beat Columbus 9-0 that game. And the players were in the dressing room high-fiving each other because they were so happy that Hitch got his ass kicked in that big game of his. I was gone at that point, but I remember getting quite a few calls that night. So sometimes they're not always on board with the hoopla around the coach yeah you know what the point i'm trying to make yeah detroit didn't lose 9-1 or 9-2 but

they lost 4-1 last night i i imagine they want to be as patient as they can here before they make any type of major decisions here but something's got to give soon with this team a lump in buffalo there as well yeah like we've talked about it so many times like buffalo ottawa great to see ottawa put a couple of good games together but buffalo you know i talked to lindy the other night i mean it's so frustrating like leads blowing leads to lose um you know you've got some good young kids there but it is so hard in that and i i just stevie y has got to make a break here he's he's got to make a coaching change he does and he's tried things this is seven or eight years he's tried to redo his veteran group at least four times and that same

veteran group moves to another team a couple of them are in ottawa a couple here a couple there and it hasn't worked and and he's one of the best gms in the game. He's got to do something. The fans are getting unbelievably restless in Detroit, to say the least. So I don't know how. I mean, I like Derek Lalonde. I think he's a good quality person. He's a good coach. But Lalonde's not the problem, guys. They're not good enough.

And it comes back to the same thing. Who has been their goaltender the last few years in Detroit? Buffalo. Have Buffalo had a goaltender that's good enough to win for the team in the last few years? I mean,

Ottawa finally get Elmark and they want to rest them. I wouldn't worry about resting L-Mark. I'd worry about winning some games. That's what I'd worry about. These teams got to send someone to Russia for half a mil. And I wouldn't worry about tampering. I'd worry about winning some games. You know,

speaking of which, I can't recall who your goalies were in Columbus all those years. Oh, let me think. Who would it have been? Well, the first year it was Ron Tugnut and Mark Denis. Not bad. Oh, let me think. Who would it have been? Well, the first year was Ron Tugnut and Mark Denis. Not bad. Oh, Mark Denis would have been. Not bad.

We ended up, we had a great first year. I mean, Tugger was a great veteran. I told you about the boat he has in the Carathas, up near Peterborough. He's got a boat sitting out in front of his house. The tugboat.

Yeah, no, it's a little cabin cruiser. It's called the SS McLean because I gave him $10 million to be a goalie in Columbus. I worked with you all these years at sports. You didn't buy me a boat. SS McLean. Tugger, I gave him five years at $10 million. But here's the funny story.

This is a – I shouldn't be telling this because it's a tampering story, okay? So Tugger's playing in Pittsburgh. I'm at the World Junior in Halifax, and I meet an agent. I can't give his name because he's still working. And we talk about – you know, I wanted to sign Tugnut. He was playing it out in Pittsburgh. He had just been traded to Pittsburgh. He was finishing up there, so I was going to sign him in the summer.

So I gave him, you know, we work out a deal at the World Junior, five years, $10 million. So Rick Dudley sees me talking to this agent, okay? And all of a sudden I get a call because I'm there watching Brad Richards, who is a PEI kid. And if he doesn't sign by June in Tampa, he's going to be a free agent. Of course, I wasn't talking to the agent about Brad Richards. I was talking to the agent about Tugna.

So Dudley sees me talking to this agent at Tugna. So Dudley sees me talking to this agent at the world junior. So all of a sudden they get a call from Bill Daly. Uh, Doug, we have a problem. I said, yeah, Bill, I got a lot of problems. What's what's uh, what is it? Um, Rick Dudley, um, is gonna, is gonna charge you with tampering. I said, Rick Dudley is going to charge you with tampering. I said, Rick Dudley's going to charge me for who? He said, Brad Richards. I said, what? Brad Richards? He said, well, he thinks you're tampering with him

because Brad is from PEI and you're from PEI. So if I was in the NHL today, I'd be charged with tampering with Noah Dobson, I'm sure. I said like seriously bill anyway if if you were ahead of your time you would have said i'm soft tampering yeah just soft it's soft soft i like when i saw that come out i just shook my head i said oh my god where are we going with this this is two weeks after Bettman comes out and said, so tampering, like, seriously.

Tampering, like, oh, my God. Okay. But seriously. Now it's a $5 million fine to the team and a million dollars to the individual. Okay. First of all, Mac, just between just between us like you're never gonna stop it and you're never you gotta be a complete idiot to be caught right especially at five and one million but like it just like i and i i chuckle when i saw that come out i thought oh man and they have

caught some guys and like but i'll tell you what it would make me nervous if i had to go like i had to go to my owner and say i was buying out andrew castles and it was going to cost 450 000 and he lost his marbles if i had to go and tell him i was getting fined five million for tampering oh my god so in that day there were no no paper trail no text messages no emails unless you guys were handwriting notes doug i think you're in the clear yeah no no exactly i mean i guess we did have emails and we did have text messages all right it wasn't you didn't do that you phoned the guy and talked to him you know okay now this new bat Batman rule will clean up Tamper. It'll totally, we saw it already.

Like Antlauer, I mean, what was it? A week after they come out with the fines? Yeah, pretty much. Here's what the league hates, boys. Here's what the league hates. If Michael Antlauer has a problem, and I don't blame him, I'd be pissed off too. But if Michael Antlauer has a problem with the New York Rangers, what the league, Batman and Daly want them to do, call Bill Daly and say, I was just told this, that people are causing problems with Brady Kachuk and i wanted to investigate him that's all he has to do why he didn't phone like why would you tell bruce gary och and not gary batman

it's like us here if we have any issues with you we call jill go right to the source all right we gotta go man. I just got to text some Jill. Stop yelling in capital letters. All right. See what happens. We send our producer away on the second hour of our show, and I'm like seven minutes over time now. I got to go to break. Hey, guys, thanks a lot for having me on. I appreciate it.

And it's just such a great experience. I don't believe you. We'll get you next week, too, Doug. We don't believe you. Thanks, Mac. Let's go to a quick break here. When we return, Jason Bucala will go around the league as well with him. We'll get some thoughts on some prospects. Plenty more still.

Don't go away. Hey, it's Blake Murphy. And I'm Matt Bonner. Join us weekday mornings at 11 as we break down all things Toronto Raptors. It's the Raptors show on Sportsnet 590 The Murphy. And I'm Matt Bonner. Join us weekday mornings at 11 as we break down all things Toronto Raptors. It's the Raptors show on Sportsnet 590, The Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. All right, closing out the week here on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. A reminder, this hour of Real Kipper and Bourne is brought to you by

Bet365. Alright, let's not waste any time here. Right to it. Like we wasted a ton with Doug McClain. It's never wasted time with Mac. Sorry, good point. Alright, let's welcome him in. Jason Bukla, pro hockey group, sportsnet analyst, former NHL scout.

How's it going, Bukla? Fantastic, fellas. tough act to follow not not as hard as you think just don't meander too much and you're doing good all right so we're we're closing in on christmas what's it like for a pro scout this time of year? Is it kind of a relaxed players got one eye on finishing out before the Christmas break? Others are making plans already. What's it like for a scout this time of year? You're making plans to be away from home for the duration of your Christmas

holiday. For the most part, I've got a four day window here coming up or five day window to spend some time with family after I go to Plymouth. I've got to go see the Team USA World Junior training camp at the beginning of the week. As you guys know, we all ran into each other.

I was in the studio this week, so I didn't get to Team Canada, but Sammy's there today. And then after I come back, boys, 10 days in Ottawa to take a look at all those prospects at the World Juniors. But on the pro side, this is always that interesting time of year to be scouting players on the pro tour. They're not checked out. I won't say anything like that. But it's definitely, you know, they kind of got one eye on Christmas a little bit.

And it's always difficult to get the best version of a player here in the next 10 days, I guess you would say. So as far as the World Juniors tournament's concerned, we do know that every team's represented. Everybody's going, everybody's watching the next great, shiny prospect. But how many deals, NHL deals would would start or be planted at that tournament to move into a march trade deadline oh that's a great question and you know what i can tell you for certain that back in my days when i was working with scott loose especially in florida that we

would have meetings at world juniors and we would start to identify that exact list kipper for because obviously you start tracking, you get into January, you start tracking towards trade deadline, and by February, for sure, the pro group's going to have a list of targets. Usually sooner. Guys are getting ahead of it anymore, and the general manager's going to want to know who can we target out there as an add-on, or if we're retaining salary, and what's the value of this guy compared to this draft class, et cetera, et cetera.

So a lot of that's going to be going on and a lot of discussion. You kind of, you almost create a little bit of a wish list, to be honest. But here's the trap. You know, a guy might spike at the World Juniors as well, so you got to definitely look at his body of work and that you're not, it's great to see him at high leverage, very well don't get me wrong but you also want to make sure that you know his body of work is what it needs to be books much more your department than mine obviously uh just curious i'm hearing the name gavin mckenna all the time these days tell

me about this kid is he the next super exciting one yeah he, he is. Absolutely. Two points a game in the dub playing in Medicine Hat. 30 games played. He's got like 19 tucks, 41 apples. He's going to make Team Canada. He got held out of the scrimmage game today. Scrimmage game? The exhibition game against the U Sports. And he was up in the stands watching.

Generally speaking, when you're not playing in the last game, that means you're going to don the jersey. So you're looking at a guy that could be at the world juniors for three consecutive years um and he is he's an electric talent guys this team canada team could be pretty young up front porto morton uh gavin mckenna uh you know you start to go through it schaefer looks like he might make it on defense, my number one guy on my list. So it's going to be interesting. How old is he? 17. Turning 17. Two points per game, turning 17.

Eligible. Not eligible. No, no. Two years away. Two years away. So this is really the next coming of a Conor Bedard hype. Absolutely. Yeah.

He's somewhere in between Celebrini and Bedard. Defensive detail ranges a bit.'s better than haggins and haggins has been the consensus number one for this i'll point you this way if mckenna was in this draft class he's a top five pick in this draft class and it's a year young so this kid's this kid's super so are we going to start hearing generational type of guy here or did we kind of the can The Canadians are going to be bad for two years, is what you're telling me? Are we going to cool that off with Bedard three goals in the first 20 games?

The generational talent flag that these kids got on. But he could be. He could be. I'll just say that. I'll say that. So let's talk about a couple of the recent first overall picks in the NHL because, you know, Bedard struggled a bit, but this Celebrini, and his Sharks stink.

He's unbelievable. I mean, I shouldn't even say they stink. He's so good. They're kind of all right. Are you surprised at the success he's having already? I'm surprised just because I didn't know about the infrastructure. You know what I mean, Borny? Like if you look at Bedard in his sophomore year,

people are throwing sophomore slump out there at Bedard. Take two seconds to read, take a look at the roster and tell me what you could do with that. He leads that team in scoring. And, you know, you got other guys on there making big dollars, the Bertuzzi's, the Halls, all these guys. And they're not doing much. Celebrini, on the other hand, the big difference in San Jose,

they're not an easy out. They are some nights, but generally speaking, they play with a lot of energy and pizzazz. Worshawski behind the bench has done a hell of a job motivating them, and this kid's a complete player, though, Borny. He plays a 200-foot game full of energy. When he's got the puck it's things are happening but when he doesn't have it he works to get it back so any guy who can play the middle of

the ice and he's young and tracks all over the place and has some pushback and you know star players guys we've seen them come along in the league forever uh when they turn a puck over in high danger areas you know and and they they have that momentary sulk to them and then all of a sudden they can't back check on time celebrini is the exact opposite he's looking to break your ankles to get the puck back as soon as he turns it over i love that about him i just you know listening to clips and stuff i watched this great draymond green cliff talking about celebrini and watching him he kept talking about how he'll push back in a scrum and got some fu and i saw ryan whitney say the same thing that you're talking to someone that'll push back in a scrum and got some FU. And I saw Ryan Whitney say the same thing,

that you're talking to someone that this guy actually has a little, the phrasing is FU, which is pretty unique in an elite talent like that. It's 100% unique. And, you know, it's going to, in time, what will happen now, you know, next year when he starts running rampant a little bit more and even more points start projecting out on the board and he plays like that, they're going to have to surround him with some guys that will be able to get in the way

of people coming hunting a bit, right? So it's one thing to be energetic and competitive that way, but it's the NHL, and your second go-around, they'll be a lot harder on you. We're talking to Jason Bukala, pro hockey group, Sportsnet analyst, former NHL scout. So, Buks, have you ever been a part of a team when they've looked at you and say,

I want two new goalies for my team. By next week. And I want them in a week. Never, ever have I had that happen. I assume you're referring to Colorado here with what they did. Yes, we had a tough loss 4-1. I think Wedgwood took the loss against Utah last night. But maybe one of the most unique moves I've ever seen.

It's like revamping your blue line with four guys, five guys. It's like it's unheard of. I've never seen it before. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I referred it to somebody this week over a beverage that was like going after a one and a two up the middle of the ice. So, you know, like a first and second line sentiment type thing. And you're right.

Will it work? Well, it worked before when they had Kemper there. They just have to be good enough if you get my drift. Gorgiev, though, this is what's curious, guys. Gorgiev, over his last 10 game segment before the deal him and blackwood mckenzie blackwood almost had the identical statistical profile like it was exactly the same so what's that tell me it tells me that the pro staffs on both sides of the ledger there did their homework and one believed that the trajectory of blackwood is still going to be

better than gorgiev because they're both on expiring contracts. Colorado saved some dough here too. They got about, I think, over a million bucks in cap space that they'll end up saving at the end of the day. And will it work? Yeah, well, maybe. Wedgwood's a two. Like, let's not make any mistake there.

He's a two. But Blackwood, he hasn't had this type of run statistically since like 2019 with the Devils. So hopefully he can continue to catch lightning in a bottle here with Colorado because he wants to earn another deal, I'm sure. We did just feel like on this show that Colorado just had to do something different. So they did accomplish that part. Earlier in the show, Leafs Hour in particular particular we're talking about who the leafs would have as an asset to trade if they were looking to do something big we've been targeting kind of a third line center for them and um you know fraser mintney his name came up but more importantly we

were saying what's up with easton cowan where's his game at how much more value valuable would you consider him than fraserinton, if at all? Yeah, good one. I think Cowan's got top six trajectory, right? So the value there trajectory-wise is different. And what we're seeing out of Minton right away, and I think we talked about it here a couple weeks ago, was that we were all pretty comfortable with that he could play a responsible two-way game, right?

He's got a B game. When he's not scoring points, he's going to do other things that are going to help the team win games. And the thing with Cowan is that I still believe that he's going to be able to do that, but more offensively. So for me, if I'm buying, I still believe that Minton's a good high-end three who has spot duty too. I think that Cowan's got two on the resume,

and therefore he's got more value on trajectory for me. The safer one, if the GM said I need something more safe, would be Minton. But I'm not moving on Minton right now if I'm Toronto, given what I'm seeing, because the audition at the NHL level has been very good. It looks good. That might play out though too, boys. So let's give it some time.

I'm not going to get too high or too low here. Cowan's dealt with a little bit of a setback here injury-wise. He's at Team Canada's camp. He's not dressed for any of the workouts this week. He's projected to be in the lineup. And he's going to have to, at this event, I'm curious. And he's on the clock for me at this event because I love this guy as a player. I live here in London.

Obviously, everybody here thinks the kid walks on water, and he's a superhuman being, which makes it even better. But at this tournament specifically, I need him to have that tenacity, that interior game, that a little bit of a rat to his approach to open up more space for himself, get more pucks in high-danger areas, and that pushback that's going to open up more space for him when he arrives as a pro one more books for us and that's just uh many teams we're hitting a 30 game mark here off the top of your head what team could be most desperate for a change

you mean uh all overall change whatever it takes to maybe nudge them and either get them back in a race or maybe get them amongst the big boys. Yeah, that's an interesting one for me. I think that the team that I'm keeping an eye on here with all the cap space guys is the Dallas Stars. With that money opening,

it's not so much that they need a nudge, it's just that I'm curious to see where they go to spend the money. And then where I am curious to see happen i'm keeping a close eye on this i think the buffalo sabers are a complete tire fire and i'm hearing the dylan cousins name being circulated out there at 7.1 he had 30 tucks two years ago be very careful if who's ever running the buffalo sabers when the time comes that you don't start trading out the wrong guys and leave nothing in the coverage later on. If you were another team, would you take Cousins at the 7-1 right now

if the deal made sense? I would, but I do my due diligence for sure, too. There's some maturing to go on there, guys, but he hasn't been surrounded with a ton of development structure. So the 30 might have been an early anomaly but there's still more growth there i think 30 could still be the number in the right environment so yeah i'm tracking towards that and last one for me books uh chicago just called up frank nazar so this kid is five nine twenty years old is he gonna

help bedard i think he's six in the ahl or something i've been trying to learn about him help me out frank nazar is a lot of fun to watch think he's sixth in the AHL or something. I've been trying to learn about him. Help me out. Frank Nazar is a lot of fun to watch, guys. He's a little ball of hate. He plays really fast. He was at the U.S. National Team Development Program, suffered a knee injury in his first year of college, held him up most of the year. Is it going to move the needle

enough in Chicago? No, it's not. It's going to put more pressure on. He's going to want to play his own style of game. It might spike for a couple of days but this isn't a solution it's an opportunity but he plays really fast Borny he's got tons of skill and he's a dog on a bone so those are good attributes always a pleasure having you on our show pal thanks for doing this have a great weekend boys have a great weekend see you later thanks pro hockey group and sports net analyst jason bucala yeah um the

nazar thing is interesting this kid is five foot nine 20 years old he's six in the ahl and scoring and like chicago's just so yeah desperate you look at bedard last night he goes into the game with ilia mckea and philip kurashev yeah how aggressive will they be in the summer for ufas crazy but i don't think they can do what they've done in the past which is like we need proven pros go bring me you know whoever should have retired they need players that are good now so what do we have just one game tonight senators in the hurricane thousand last. Like they jam pack like most of the week and then they just leave it for one game tonight. One game tonight. I don't get that.

And then you know how many tomorrow? 15. 15 games tomorrow. Every NHL team plays, I imagine, except Ottawa and Carolina. Totally guessing on that. All right. That kind of closes out our week, doesn't it? That was good.

We got Mac for a little longer than we maybe should have. So Sammy was driving to Oshawa to catch a Generals game. I don't think he's probably five minutes away from us with the traffic right now. No. He left an hour ago. Yeah, and he's got a big weekend ahead. He's got a huge. Sammy, we know you're listening. Pace yourself, hour ago. Yeah, and he's got a big weekend ahead. He's huge. Sammy, we know you're listening.

Pace yourself, my friend. Pace yourself. I think he's with some of the Zig Zag boys, too, his beer league squad. So I think they'll put the beer in beer league this weekend. Once again, our thanks to Doug McClain, Jason Bukla. Great week, by the way. Yeah. It was a lot of fun this week.

It was a good week, and we just should note as well if you want Pierre Engvall, he is available for free on waivers right now. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening to all our viewers on YouTube. Give us a thumbs up. Love to hear your comments. We don't want to forget about you guys. And if you get

a chance, download our show. For Nick Kiprios and Justin Bourne, have a great weekend, and we're back Monday on Real Kipper and Bourne.