Real Kyper & Bourne - Behind the Leafs' 'Data-Centric' GM Search + Astronaut Chris Hadfield!

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne welcome a special guest to kick off the national hour: Canadian astronaut and Leafs fan, Colonel Chris Hadfield (5:08)! He shares his thoughts on the Leafs' season, the Artemis II trip, his new book Final Orbit, and he reminisces on returning to Earth on the same day the Leafs lost to the Bruins in Game 7 of the 2013 playoffs. Later, former NHL player, agent, and GM Brian Lawton (28:41) discusses the NHL's shift to an analytics-first approach, how teams should use analytics, how the Leafs used their data under Brad Treliving, and why the Leafs should not move on Sunny Mehta until they hire a president. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right, let's get her going. It's the national hour on the real Kipper and Bourne show. We're live on SportsNet. Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver, Sportsnet 960 in Calgary. And streaming always on Sportsnet. Plus, if you miss our show, can't catch it live. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube, where we always appreciate a thumbs up.

In the next few minutes, we'll welcome in Colonel Chris Hatfield, former astronaut, now bestseller. See him on the commercials all the time. Yeah, man. Huge hockey fan. and of course there's something going on right now in space which we're all excited about.

I actually can't believe we're doing that. I've never met two guys. I'm so excited. I feel so out of my alley. I feel so out of my element. The next few minutes. It's been awesome, awesome. And Brian Lawton will stop by.

Before we get things started, just want to shout out to a personal friend, a next teammate, Todd Ellick, who kind of played minor. hockey with briefly here in Toronto and then we ended up playing in North Bay together and he went to had a great career including 30 goals with the Kings, Oilers, Sharks, Bruins, if I'm missing any other team. But he's in a battle right now with cancer and he's watching right now out of Saskatchewan.

Nice. Just a big shot at, I know you're going to fight this thing right to the right, right from the get-go here, Todd. All our support from the real Kipper and Bourne show. All right. You got your astronaut questions lined up? Yeah, kind of. You know, I do think that there is something to be said for interviewing someone when you genuinely have a lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

It's almost a good thing. It's like, you know, just here's a basic question. Please make me less dumb. That's kind of my goal here. And to find out how you make so many good decisions to become an astronaut, so many good decisions. And then you're a least fit. How do you go through your whole life continually doing this? the right thing, but so clearly aired

in such a big life decision, so we'll get to him a few moments. If I'm not, maybe, maybe I'm wrong. I thought maybe there was some story about him potentially being in space or coming back from space during game seven of 2013. I don't know if that's true or not.

Don't be making stuff up. I just remember that in my... Run it through the Google machine. I remember that in my mind. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. This hour of real Kippron born, brought to by Bet, 365. In the meantime, a whole slate of games.

Like, it's kind of crazy on who's in and who's out here. I mean, I like the interest. Of course, it's great, right? Because that's what you want, right? But it's still so hard for teams to jump. And Ottawa has been hot as a firecracker, and they're in, of course. But, like, think about what they needed to grind through to get there.

And Columbus, they were as good as anybody down the stretch here. I know the last five or six games got ugly, but it just goes to show you how hard it is. Yeah, it is brutal. You know, there's just such a glut of teams there right now. Teams outside the playoff standings,

this is Columbus, Detroit, the Islanders, the Capitals have 90, 89, 89, 89 points, all just sitting there with 92 being the cutoff. So anyone could still get hot. Boston's pretty much set. Yeah, they're set. Pittsburgh set. Liars and Sends looking good.

You mentioned Sends. I mean, shout out Thomas Shabbat. Thomas Shabbat returning to the lineup tonight against the Florida Panthers. Two weeks after a broken arm boys. Two weeks. That's unbelievable. I think this guy is undergoing one of the greater

reputational changes of any defensemen like gone from being, oh, he's not number one, No, he's not worth that contract. And now he's a pivotal part of an Ottawa team, a well-rounded defenseman, playing through injury. And they love them there. Sends fans love them. And I think maybe you said this last time we talked about it,

but I was looking at the playoff matchups if they started today. Sends Carolina. All three of us going to pick Sends in that series? I probably wouldn't, but mostly because I know you two would pick up. I think Sends all day. We said a month ago that if the Sends get in, Like, you're not going to want to face it. You can't look at Carolina and go,

I'm not sure about their goal tending while picking Ottawa. I mean, Ulmerk is famously awful in the playoffs. Awful. Olmerk versus Freddie. Oh, my God. An immovable object is an unstoppable force. The movable object.

Oh, yeah, a movable object and a stoppable force. A stoppable force. I don't know how that works. Yeah. Anyway, Utah tonight. Nashville can clinch a playoff spot. All right. All right.

For the next. I don't care. Let's focus on the good stuff here. All right. Let's welcome him in as promised, as advertise. Colonel Chris Hadfield, former astronaut and now best seller. Wow, man. This is so cool.

I hope I don't pull a Chris Farley here and just mess this whole thing up. How are you, Chris? I'm doing well. How are you doing? Nice to see and nice to be joining in with you a bit here. Yeah, we can start this place for this segment in so many ways. But let's just start it with like. Like, how can we get so close to the moon after 50 years,

but we can't get Vancouver, Toronto into the playoffs? Calgary, can't get any of them in. What is, like, please, is there some equation we're missing here? Gosh, well, you know, look at last year. I mean, maybe that's not a position for the future, but playoffs, we were the second best team, in the league in Toronto, and just came within so many Harrisbread of moving on and make it into the whole thing.

So this was not a good year, but you just got to accept no team wins the Stanley Cup every single year. But, yeah, I feel the frustration myself. And what's the recipe? I don't know. If someone knew the answer to that question, then they'd do that every year, but nobody does. So it's just the way it is. Well, Colonel, thank you very much for joining us.

It is an honor for us to have you here. I can't help but wonder how busy you've been here as the Artemis 2 is currently on its way back from the moon right now. And we have another Canadian up there and Jeremy Hanson. Very cool for all of us. I think there's a great interest around it right now. What is your perspective on what we're witnessing and what this all means, this latest trip around the moon? It's just the coolest thing that this is happening right now. And four friends of mine climbed on board a rocket ship a week ago and blasted off out of Florida,

swung this huge orbit around the world, and then fired this old space shuttle engine. The rocket that took them up had some pieces in it, reused pieces from the rockets that took me to space. And then they fired that shuttle engine. It got them going fast enough to coast. all the way to the moon, the pictures that they sent, but also I think our technology is so much better now for them to share on board what it's like. People get to see how they're living

and that they're just capable, competent, but just regular people. And then the stuff we learned about the moon because the cameras are so much better now than they were. And now they're falling 400,000 kilometers, with the gravity of the earth pulling them faster and faster and faster until tomorrow night they're going to come blistering into the earth's atmosphere at about maybe even slightly faster than anybody ever has in the past that to me is amazing but and the fact that there's a Canadian

on board Jeremy Hanson from small town Ontario is is on board and a vital part of that crew and I think everybody should be amazed by this human accomplishment, but really prideful of the fact that Jeremy's on board. You're watching and listening, Colonel Chris Hadfield, former astronaut, bestseller author now. Final Orbit is his latest book, and we'll get into it for sure, Chris. But you just mentioned Jeremy.

And tell me what it's like to be like a former astronaut or an alumnus. I don't know. Can you compare it to like a, pro hockey player taking a rookie under his wing, the relationship. How do you compare that sort of relationship from sports to space? I think there is a lot of that. You guys know far better than I do,

the reality of stepping from where you all started, maybe getting into like the Marley's at that level, like the goalie who's playing tonight, right? He's played overseas. he's come over, he's played with the Marley's, but now it's about to be a very different thing. And you've got to learn a bunch of it for yourself, but at the same time,

you want to listen to the people who have actually been there. And the guys that just went to the moon and back, they talked to the folks that had been there. They read the books, the folks that are still alive that went around the moon. That's a huge resource. They talked to the guys. in mission controls, names Gene Krantz, who was, you know, Houston, when they said, Houston,

we have a problem and failure is not an option. That's all Gene Krantz. They talk to him. And I think that's sort of the same thing. You've got to be able to perform on your own. You've got to have the skills. You've got to be able to make the right decisions when things are happening. But it sure does help you succeed if you can learn from the old heads around and And so I think those parallels, I can imagine how nervous, what's his name, Akhtiamov is going to be. He's played at a pretty high level, but he's about my size, you know, a little over 6, 175 pounds. He's not some monster. He's just a guy.

And it's not even his native country. And he's going to give it his best shot tonight. So, yeah, I think there's a bunch of parallels there. And then once you've done it a bunch, then you, you. were standing on other people's shoulders, but now you're sort of becoming those shoulders to help other people. And, you know, that's how a lot of the people on the Leafs, I think, look at the other teammates. We got a lot of new guys there, right? So, yeah, I think there's a lot of that feeling. Chris, when you're up there and you're looking back at planet Earth, do you have sort of

like an existential moment about like what it means to be human and all that? I'm partially asking, because I know you are a Leafs fan, and I believe you were re-entering the atmosphere, well-wearing a Leafs jersey, while they lost Game 7 to the Boston Bruins in 2013. So when you're up there, are you able to separate, okay, this doesn't matter that much? There's something bigger going on here?

Yeah, so that's all exactly right. But I was about to, you know, I was the pilot of a space capsule returning from orbit. And that means you're going eight, a second, and the only way you slow down is by friction with the atmosphere. So it's going to get blisteringly hot. And you actually fly this little capsule down through the atmosphere. And if you fly it a little too shallow, then you'll skip out of the atmosphere. If you fly it a little too steep, then you'll dig way in and burn yourself up. So it's really careful. So you've got to pay attention.

Yeah. But I knew that the Leafs were playing. They made it to Game 7. And I'm like, what can I do to support my team, and I'd got the Canadian Space Agency to ship up a Leafs jersey up there. And I thought, well, you know, it's against the rules, but who's going to really care and what are they going to do? Fire me. So I put it on underneath my spacesuit. And I was where, I thought, it's the least I can do. And you may not know this part of the story, but so came down through the atmosphere and vehicle behaved itself. We landed where we were supposed to land. Rescue helicopters were there. They drag. you out of the capsule because your body's a bit of a wreck after six months without gravity.

Now you're, and also the doctors want to study. And they plunk you down in a chair. And then this is in 2013. They had a sat phone handy. And they nobody knew the answer. So they handed the sat phone to me to talk to my wife. And I'm like, hey, love, how are you doing? She says, hey, that's great. Welcome back to Earth. My next question to her was, how did the Leafs do? She said, oh, they love. And so it was part of like, that was my first ability to find out what actually happened. Welcome back to Earth. Everything's still off. And for the record, all our wives welcome us back to Earth too, right? Just, Colonel, just in terms of what we're truly learning now about the moon and where are we going moving forward here.

Like, am I going to be able to buy a condo soon up there? No. but I think if you're trying to predict what's going on with the moon, look at Antarctica for the last 100 years. Like 100 years ago, or 110, it was people died all the time, just trying to get to Antarctica. Our technology was really primitive, sailing ships. And then we invented steamships so we could have control our destiny a little better.

And then we invented airplanes so we could get to Antarctica and back. And a place that would kill us 110 years ago, now because we've advanced and we've we've decided this is a scientific place worth going all sorts of countries cooperate and we have thousands of people living in Antarctica including a small contingent living at the South Pole and Canadians are there and about a hundred thousand tourists a year show up on ships you know on cruise ships going by and so I think that's we're kind of back in the 1890 1900 phase of the moon, where we can just barely get there, but we understand that it's a really interesting place, and we now need to figure out how are we going to start settling there safely so that then it can become part of the long-term human experience. And we're in that transition. And Jeremy's flight, Artemis here, is the first transitioning from exploration to settlement. That's what's going on right now. And they were proving the equipment, and they got the great big test

tomorrow night when they come back into the atmosphere and that heat shield's got to protect them. But assuming things, you know, assuming things go, okay, then the next couple missions will start putting people on the moon and then we'll build an infrastructure there and set up an Earth-moon system. That's where we are. Eventually, you'll be able to get a condo there, but it might be one of your kids that's the right way to do that, not you. How does Canada fit into the global, I don't know what it's called a space race, but like, Like how are we on funding compared to how we used to be? What direction is it moving?

Real positive direction right now. You know, we've had to rely on the rest of the world to put our satellites in space, which is okay if everybody's playing nice. But as soon as someone decides no, we're kind of helpless. And that's not a good place to be. And so we just recently committed with two different launch sites, several companies, to develop our own ability to put stuff into orbit. Because you don't even think about it, really, but we count on space navigation for GPS, space weather, to give us, you know, all the life-saving information about big storms, communications, understanding Canada's territory, all of that stuff.

Timing, it's really integrated into society, even Internet from space. And there's a lot of Canadian companies that I work with that I'm helping. I'm on the board of or I'm an advisor to that are really moving into that whole business realm. And it's a huge business globally. And Canada could do more and we're in the process of doing more. And I think it's the right thing to be doing. The latest book in the Chris Hadfield Collection is Final Orbit. What can we expect?

Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, I write thriller fiction. This was the bestselling book in Canada in the fall. And I take real history. and then I figure out what if just a couple little things had changed, what might have just happened? And that's where my plot room comes. But it's almost all real characters, real events, and then things go drastically wrong. And final orbit.

It was the final launch of the Apollo program when the Americans were docking with the Russian, the Soviets and their Soviet spaceship. That all really happened. But then from all of my years in the business, I know what the things that could have gone wrong. I make one of those things go wrong. And then it all cascades from there. And I add in a whole third rail of plot because a lot of people don't know

what was going on with the Chinese space program then of what just might have happened. And one of the amazing characters in history, who a Chinese kind of the father of their space program, He figures large in the book. And yeah, the book's done superbly well. In fact, just before I was talking to you, I was talking to a production house about my books,

you know, getting an option for TV and movies and stuff. So, yeah, it's all fun stuff. But I'm just delighted that not only do people really enjoy Final Orbit, but they're all clamoring, like, impatiently for me to write. It's like if you win the Stanley Cup, the next question they're going to be, so, are you going to win it again next year? And so, yeah, so, yeah. people want the next book and so I'm writing the fourth book in the series right now.

Oh, that's very cool. Well, congrats on the success there. Just one last one for me. So tomorrow our astronauts return back to Earth. And you mentioned that when you got out, it's hard on your body. I know if you get off a treadmill, it still feels like you're moving for a little bit. I can't imagine suddenly experiencing gravity again. What are our astronauts in for when they get back to the land?

And just to add to that, Chris, just how emotional it is for these. guys coming home? Yeah, both those things. It's really physical because weightlessness is the ultimate laziness. Not only do you not have to hold your head up or lift a finger, but your blood doesn't have any weight. So your heart doesn't even have to lift the blood from your feet to your head anymore. So when they come back, they're going to re-experience the the rudeness of gravity, especially as they come in the atmosphere and they get crushed in their seats for a while. but and they'll be dizzy as can be it almost feels like when you've had a really bad cold or a flu and your head's been full and you've been sick and laying in bed and afterwards you feel kind of weak and

tottery they're going to feel like that for a while but I think the psychological side's going to be bigger for them because before they left only kind of space people knew who they were but I mean they're going to be naming schools after Jeremy now and And he is rightfully a really accomplished public figure now. And what he has done, nobody has ever left Earth orbit except the 24 Americans in the Apollo program. No other human, no Soviet, no Russian, no Chinese astronaut. No other country has had one of their people leave Earth orbit and go to the moon, except United States, who's already done it, and Canada.

So it's a big thing nationally. And obviously it's a huge thing in Jeremy's life and his family's life personally and professionally. And so he's going to have to like integrate that into who he is and deal with all of the extra attention that comes along with that. But he's a great guy. And he's very well grounded. And if you look at him, he's more of a defenseman than a forward for sure. He's a big body. When Jeremy was going through pilot selection,

he actually shaved the bottom of his shoes off and took the heels off his boots so that he would be a little bit shorter. Really? So he wouldn't stand out as being this great big guy and get disqualified from flying F-18s. So he was legal, but he wanted to make sure no one just looked and said, nope, you're too big.

And he's going to have to now put up with all that public scrutiny. But at the same time, he's a great guy, got a great family, and he's going to wear it really well. And he's someone, I think, right now there's a lot of uncertainty. It's really nice to have somebody like that with a big buzz light ear jaw who truly can put his reputation where his accomplishments were and everybody can look at what Canada just did and feel a lot of pride and an inspiration in a time that we could use some more inspiration. That's a big difference from the lighter guys that I used to play hockey with that hit the dumbbell between their cheeks.

Come on a little heavier. Hey, listen, you got any free time? Are you interested in the Leaf job? I know Neil Glassberg, I can get you your resume in. I think you're smart enough. I heard that the new GM was actually on this. call right now. A guy somewhere, you know, later in his career, got a lot of experience, multiple teams and a lot of good insight. You know, I think, have they been calling your number?

Do they have your number? I think they should give you a call. They lost that one a long time ago, Colonel. So appreciate your time in all of this. It is truly a great time for Canada and their space program. It was always led by you, and it's wonderful to see Jeremy now following right behind. you and continued success with the books. Oh, let me interrupt. My wife calls Jeremy Chris 2.0.

That is a couple of. That is awesome. Awesome. You're a pioneer, though. Look forward to seeing down at Scotch Bank Arena again soon, pal. Thanks for doing this. Great. I'll be at the game Monday.

Beautiful. Hopefully we'll see you there. Take care. That is the one of the only Colonel Chris Hadfield. That was a really cool. That an honor. That was sick, boy. That was super sick.

God, I wish I was in space for game seven. Shoot me into space after game seven. If they could have been like rocket launch right there, I would have hit it, boys. Artemis 3, let's go. No return plan. Let's go. Yeah, when that bat left, when that ball left, Bego, Rojas is bad. I would have hit that same button.

Game time, boys. Game time. All right. It's game time. Presented by Bet 365, an official partner of the NHL must be 19 plus. Ontario only, please play responsibly. Masters or hockey? Masters.

Okay, so we don't have the first round in the books, but lots of big names have finished. Rory McElroy tied for the lead with Sam Burns at minus five. Roy McElroy has shot all the way up to a plus 300 favorite to win us. I believe he started in the 12 to 13 range. So, I mean, it's still not a bad number. That's a decent number, actually. I'm surprised. That's leading.

Scotty Sheffler is right there at plus 350, and then it drops all. the way down to plus 850 with Justin Rose. Looking at Xander Schaftel, you look pretty good today. Still don't mind that number. Feels like if you did Rory and Schaeffler. You might be in a good, you might be in good shape. Right. You might be in good shape.

You still come out on top pretty good there. I'm feeling pretty stupid having zero investment in either of those guys. I'm watching the first round. I was like maybe. Oh, it's Ludberg-Oberg's here. Maybe overthought this one a little bit. So that's that. There's also 14 games on tap tonight.

A couple big ones. Senators looking to really try to stamp their ticket tonight. they are monster faves against the Florida Panthers. Minus 340 tonight against the Florida Panthers on home ice, plus 270 for the Florida Panthers who have nobody playing tonight. Winnipeg still trying to fight away to get to that final playoffs. Probably not going to happen. Minus 110 on the money line.

And later on, L.A., continuing their march to get the Leafs' second round pick, minus 280 on the money line against the putrid Vancouver Canucks, who are plus 230. That was game time presented by Bet365. an official partner of the NHL must be 19 plus Ontario only, please play responsibly. Okay, let's take a quick break because we got Brian Lawton when we come back.

Also, I don't know if you guys saw the video put out by the Edmonton Oilers staff on the trading at the deadline. Interesting interesting conversation they had in that. I want to get into that with you guys as well. Sounds good. So plenty more

when we return to Real Kipper and Born. Hey, it's Blake Murphy. It'll map honor. Join us. day mornings at 11 as we break down all things Toronto Raptors. It's the Raptor show on SportsNet 590 The Fan and wherever you get your podcasts. A reminder of this hour of Real Kipprin Bourne brought to by Bet365. Let's welcome in Brian Lotton, former NHL player agent, general manager. The only thing he hasn't done is go to the moon.

We just had a kernel on Lott's. You're following an astronaut. You okay with that? Oh, we got no. No, no sound. All right, we'll get on that. It was like no sound. But I'd be speechless too.

I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to talk. Sorry. I'm losing you. Didn't they lose? Didn't the spaceship lose contact for 40 minutes? Yeah, when they went behind the moon. Bad reception, eh?

That is the scariest possible sentence you could say to me. Oh, we lost touch with Earth because we were stuck behind the moon. Once we get out from behind the moon, it should clear up. Clearly, they didn't have Rogers. No. They're not. You'd live on. Exactly.

Exactly. Oh, no. We got, we're going to try one more time? I don't know. All right, we'll check his audio, and we'll get to him. Okay. What do you want to know? What do you want to know from lots today?

Lots of stuff? You know, he's an interesting guy because, as we mentioned, he's worn so many hats. and just his overall thought on analytics versus analytic darling versus hockey guy. Yeah, he's been around in different spots. It's funny now. I wonder how a lot of those meetings have changed in recent years like arbitration hearings. I know there's some rules of what stats you can use and what stats you can't use when you're doing ARB stuff. But yeah, I think all the conversations behind the scenes are different now

in a more analytically driven era. Oh, we're talking. Talk amongst yourselves, Sammy. No, I'm just sorry. Sometimes I forget that I am the producer of the show. Just talking to Derek, he's going to reconnect and get back. So there's having a microphone issue. Okay, we'll get on it.

Let's skip to some of our end of show. All right, just before the break, I had mentioned to you that we're seeing it a lot more. Oh, we got Brian now. Okay. All right, let's try again. Lots. Did you blow us off because you're following an astronaut? Never. Yes. Never. Are you kidding me? Don't never blow you off?

I'm sure you're well aware of the situation in Toronto in terms of looking for a new general manager president. We don't know for sure what they're looking for or how they'll announce either one or two or as many new executives as they want. but it does go around in terms of the conversation now of analytical darling versus the hockey guy. And you've been around the game a long time. And where are you on the analytics and how far do you go back? I know I know in our conversations in the past you have talked to me about analytics and, you know,

including a history with maybe sunny in the past that maybe a lot of people don't know about. But let's start. with you when you were introduced to analytics and go from there i can tell you exactly when i really was sold on analytics and people will be shocked by this but you know after taking over at tampa and seeing how we operated as an organization which was pretty typical to most of the teams you got to go back to 2009 i'd worked about three months i was not very pleased with where we're at as an organization And I made the decision at that time to start looking for somebody on the analytics side.

There was two things that really stuck out to me. One was analytics and one was technology. So I went out, I found a guy whose name was Michael Peterson. Still works for the Tampa Bay Lightning, has been instrumental in many of the great things that organization has done, had really never seen a hockey game before we hired him. But we took it upon ourselves to work with him, introduce him to the sport, train him, and turn him loose. That was 2009. When Stevie got him, Stevie thought about letting him go, Eisenman, and thankfully he didn't. This is what Tom Kerver has told me.

And the rest is history. Michael's done a fantastic job for them. Fast forward about four years from then. I was representing a guy that was buying a ownership stake in the NHL, bought a 30% piece in Minnesota to wild Matt Holsizer. He had introduced me to two young, incredibly talented analytics gurus. Their names were Sonny Meta and Tim Barnes. And that's really when I started to get a look behind the curtain at another level as to what's capable out there. Tim Barnes, well, Vic Ferrari, the blog boys back in the day.

That's great. So I guess from there, how much? of this sort of stuff, how much value did you find in what you learned about it and and I guess your take on how it can and should be used today? Yeah. My take on it very early, to be honest with you, having been an agent and having passed on really good players and concerning myself a really good scout, but I can distinctly remember going watching Duncan Keith and go, nah, I don't think so.

So really nice college player, a little bit on a smaller side, liked his quickness. But, you know, like going through all the things you do as a scout. And then him having the career he had, and it never left me. I'll be honest with you. That was a long time ago. Kind of the same thing on another person that everybody will know in Toronto for different reasons, Kevin B.XA. Another guy that I thought, well, you know, he's good. But he wasn't signed by Vancouver.

where he was on an HL contract, wasn't sure. And in those moments, even when I look back on it, that's when I was convinced that, look, I'm a pretty good scout by standards. But there has to be a better way to evaluate this. And that's what led me into analytics. And that's really where I formed my views on what the best way is to run a club.

And I've been sold, honestly, for about eight years now. And if you look at the history, you have Washington, Carolina, of course, Tampa, Florida, teams like Colorado making great strides in this area. I can look at an organization, and I can tell you after about 15 minutes of research, whether or not analytics is actually, truly embedded in the organization. Are they using it? you know, after everything happened with Toronto, I went back and looked at the decisions and went through this very analytically with a lot of the resources that are now at teams disposal. And it was very clear to me that even though Toronto has this incredible

analytics department has these incredible resources, ownership spent on this stuff. But it clearly wasn't embedded in the final decision-making authority. and what happened in the end, and it happens a lot for the teams that may say they're analytical but really aren't, is the data loses every time to pressure network external forces. And it's not that hard to spot. So can you look at the numbers and be comfortable to say that if the Leafs were more aggressive in using that information, they would have made a difference of five, six, seven points? I mean, is that the difference between the Leafs making the playoffs and not?

Yeah, it's more than that. Some of it is foundational, you know, when you're trading picks and stuff. It'll lead everybody to the same place. A lot of people don't know. And this is a crazy far-out thing to say, but it's true. Long before there was cap geek or cap wages or puckpedia, I basically created that in Octagon. Every single thing in those companies do to this day, I laugh.

because it's already been done. And it's been going on for a long time. That's always the way I wanted to look at it. I wanted to have more data, wanted to understand. This is in a pre-salary cap world. And occasionally I have somebody say, well, why would you have done that pre-salary cap? I did it because everybody had budgets.

And as an agent, I wanted to know how much money people had to spend. And every agent that worked for Octagon back in the early 2000s was directed in every call. please ask the GM what's their budget, how much money they have. And we just built out depth charges filled in that information. It wasn't as accurate because we had to guess. But that really, truly, I could show you those files on my computer right now. The entire league ranked with time on ice as a proxy for where you fit into a depth chart. Like it was very, very specific, how much each team was spending on D forwards.

This is long before any of that came about. That's the way I see the game. There's one reason, guys, why I see it that way. I'm one of the few people that ran an NHL team that was not trained by the people that were there. I didn't spend eight, nine, ten years as an assistant GM, which is pretty much the accepted path to becoming a general manager. My path was different. I retired as a player. I knew I wanted to be a GM.

I figured out I needed to learn the business side of hockey. That's why I became an agent. I had two goals. One was to do that and eventually become a GM. The other one was just to help players. It was a poor level of representation way back when. And that's it. So that's led me to where I am now.

I've been down that journey much farther than people would ever know. And my final conclusion, that'll shock you guys. This is from somebody that was a GM before, loved it, would love to work for a team, is that my role in the hockey operations department is not to be the GM anymore. There's too many guys too specialized at it on the analytics side that are going to overtake the league

very, very quickly here. My role is more architectural. My role with my background, I have embedding technology for really the past 15 years, having just completed an AI build here for our company, Sports Digita, I understand how it works.

And I understand as a former hockey person, how it best fits into a hockey operations department. When I look at the Leafs, there's one glaring error. And it's somewhat tied to and not tied to the past, and that is not having a president. I don't think anybody should have a GM that's unchecked now without the work of a president, somebody to hold them accountable,

to make sure standards are applied. to make sure that analytics never falls by the wayside when you're making decisions. It's just too much a low-hanging fruit. Do you want to follow up on that, President? Yeah, do you think lots that this is time-sensitive? Because I know there's people sort of vying for the GM role, but it feels like if they're going to do the president thing, that should probably happen sooner.

The craziness to me is that how, you know, I've been to, You guys would have no idea how many teams I've interviewed with over the years. It's a difficult process to break through more than 12 in my career. It's always generally the same. It's somebody that's really not qualified to evaluate me as a general manager. The main purpose of the president is really to hire the GM. They've got to be an expert with a background in hockey. I can't tell you how many people I interviewed with.

I used to go to those interviews thinking, I wonder if they're going to ask me about this section in the CBA. And it would always take me about three minutes to realize they've never looked at a CBA. They don't understand the rules. They wouldn't know what to ask me. But that's just the way it was done. It was very network-driven. I think that's all going to change.

I think it's odd to hire somebody. You know, the way the world works now, I get calls from a lot of headhunters. and search firms. And they generally ask me what I think about people that they're writing a profile or file on. I kind of think it's laughable. So lots, the situation in Toronto, if, you know,

and everybody hears the name Sunny Mehta and New Jersey now, are they in a race with Toronto? He's going to go somewhere. We know that. But is it risky for the Leafs to name him first if they don't get this president? that you're talking about?

I think it's hard to evaluate him. Yes. Do you know what to ask him? Do you know what predictive models he's using? Do you know what his surplus value models are on players? Forget about the analytics people talk about. There's a dark dark web out there. It's not what's measurable.

And you always hear me say this. It's what's meaningful. It's just like it's not who's right in these hockey operations departments. Is it analytics or the eye test? It's what's right. This stuff has been so crystal clear to be for a long time. I just looked at a presentation this morning. I won't say the team it was four.

I could easily make it so you'd guess, but I won't. Everything I wrote was essentially exactly correct. I know that sounds self-serving, and I don't mean it that way. It's just a factual record. That particular team had a presentation from me that outlined everything that needed to happen. And when you look at the teams that have won six, seven of the last eight Stanley Cups, you know, whether it's Washington or Tampa or Florida, Carolina's a great analytics team,

but they haven't won. I could explain to you why if we had a longer show. Weather element they're missing. I won't go into that. But Eric Tolski, I think, is brilliant. I think their organizations incredibly well run and they're going to break through when they crack the last code in my opinion. But the other teams that have won, they're all running the same program now. People just woke up and predominantly because Toronto shouted it.

So I give Keith Pelley a ton of credit for coming to that conclusion that we can't. Toronto's had an incredible run of talented people, people that have. are known in the game and icons from Lou Lamarillo and Brian Burke and Brendan Shanahan. You know, the list is really impressive. It's not the people they've hired. It's the structure that they've lacked. And the clubs that really take off from here that haven't been rolling out this new program, this mystical program I'm talking about that isn't that hard to figure out,

are the ones that understand that architectural point that go out and get themselves a president and understands technology that knows how to structure things so that you'll never call everything right, but those teams I'm naming, they make less bad decisions. And most often they're not, probably sitting in a playoff spot.

Most of the time, but this year, you know, Washington and Florida aren't, but they both had a pretty good success. One Stanley Cups, Washington lost Pierre-Lube-Dupois. Yeah, yeah, injuries. For sure. That was devastating.

Florida loses bark off. That's devastating. Those teams are tired. Certainly Florida. Three Stanley Cup finals in a row. That has wear and tear. This stuff is not rocket science. Pardon the pun.

It's pretty elementary. We had rocket science, buddy, at the top of the hour. Lots. Great stuff, man. Thanks for doing this. My pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it lots.

Talk to you soon. Brian Lotton. Big fan. Yeah. Listen, this is, it's funny, the conversation around the Leafs' opportunities

and the directions they can go. Yeah. You had an article today. I think we kind of had similar articles today. Did we? Yeah. That's like two weeks in a row. We have spent some time together.

Yeah, I know. I think we just start like, okay, maybe I can write an article off of what we talked about. Well, the reality is, like, You know, you sit here and you hash stuff out with you guys for an hour and you form an opinion. That's what you're right about. I'm less on the leaf or anybody to just like go and clean up as much as you can and just get it ready for whoever you bring in. Yeah.

It's just basically the just of my article today. Yeah, as in, you know, I think of like a surgeon getting people to like clean up the operation site before they, you know, you bring in the big dog. So like you mean basically find where you have excess. Well, yeah. Just if you struggled in the scouting, then just get it ready. And whether or not you want to go and find a few people on your own with some of the people that you still trust in the office or you wait for the new guy. But just know that as soon as he walks in, you got to build me a new scouting department. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. We've never talked about that before. I feel like something triggered your mind on that that. that you're like, all right, here's... That's how you win. At the end of the day, that's how you win. Scouting.

Did you want to play the clip from the... Yeah, interesting clip that they released, and this is a trade deadline. This is Dan Bowman and his team. There was a two-minute clip. I just cut the first 15 seconds of it or whatever, just to get a taste of what it was. You know, behind the scenes.

Yeah, it was behind the scenes. It was their whole brain trust. Jeff Jackson was in there. And this is... Based on the trade with Chicago. Yeah, so we can just play that clip, 14. first then they give us Dickinson at half price and they give us stock

and they take Mangyipani everything in one deal with it. That's what I'm trying to. I think that would get Kyle's attention because he's not going to get it first anywhere else. First of all You hate this. Well, this is one

this is like it just it's just if you're going to release something man it better be like almost good and perfect, right? As in like, they are so exceedingly thorough, no one can question your process.

We just played a small clip of that. But it's not real because I don't believe that for one second, it would have been the same conversation if you didn't know the cameras were going. And I just, to me, to me, I would have liked, hold on. What's that? You think they're going to have fake conversations about the team?

No, I'm saying that people will be very careful, right? Just be very careful. Because my take. Every time I've seen one of those is, God, everyone seems terrified to say anything. And my exact point is, like, I don't want to see everybody. I don't want to see everybody go, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I want to see someone go, I don't really agree with that. You know, can I get a follow up on?

Can I get a follow up? And Stan was, Stan's line was like. Not going to get a first round anywhere else. Yeah. Why not? And can someone stand up in that meeting? and go, if he's not going to get a first round from anyone else, then why are we giving him a first rounder?

Yep. Right? Like, what is the rest of the league telling them about their players that we're missing because we're the only one that's now going to give him a first round? Yeah, it's tough. That to me would have been a better clip to release. But like, I genuinely believe that I'm not saying in this instance, but I think those conversations may have happened off-site in a different room,

whatever. But to your point, when we get this video clip, it feels like they sat in a big room. And the guy who is in charge of all their jobs said, I like this. And everyone went, us too. No? You know, that's what I got out of it. Right. I just, you know, some of the conversations they're having in there felt like conversations that we've had. Totally. They're like, oh, the energy. I'm here. I'll get a pop for whatever. I have said that. After Men's League, Get some nachos on the table, right? And a couple of beers.

That was a conversation that you have with your buds. 100%. Like you'd like to see them putting together the piece of their lineup and being like, hey, Dickinson, we can use them like this. Show some technology. Show a screen. Someone said 18089 hits. I'm like, I would have said that.

That's what I first. That's the media. And then there was that one person that said, well, he had a hundred. That's me. That's what you just said. Just 149 hits and 30. At least that's an offer of information where everything else is just kind of, what do you think?

I don't know. What do you think? You know, I know that it comes down to the game. I think the greater point we're trying to make is that the clips almost never do it justice. I remember seeing Kevin Adams and the Norris for Cousin's Trade. And they're like, yeah, the one doctor said Norris is, you know, not hurt or it's not

going to be a problem. Guess what? Kevin may have nailed it. Well, yeah. Norris has played about 50% of the game since they traded for him. so I'm not going to say yes to that. Incredible Kevin Adams' story where for like six years

you think he's like Schlepp Rock from the Flintstones and then in the seventh year he becomes the genius. But I still think a lot of where the players came from. Anyway, I don't... But there's another clip where Don Sweeney where they talk about trading Tyler Sagan years ago. I don't know if you guys remember that one,

but it was a very sort of... I don't know. Like, you just don't like... I love the one with Marshaan. We traded Marsheep and the guy's like, oh God. Yeah, we did. Yeah.

Oh, geez. What a show today. Straight from space. Arthur Staples. Colonel Chris Hadfield and Brian Lotton. For just joining us, go download the show right away. Appreciate everybody hanging around today. We're right back again tomorrow, aren't we?

Yeah. Yeah, I'll check in with Doug. Steve's about. Mac. Yeah, we haven't had Mac on it a while. Have a great night, everybody.