Real Kyper & Bourne - BONUS: Leafs Playoff Run Ends in OT vs. Panthers

Episode Date: May 13, 2023

The Toronto Maple Leafs season came to an end after a thrilling game 5 against the Florida Panthers. JD Bunkis, Sam McKee, and Justin Bourne break down the Leafs overtime loss and discuss what went wrong in the series, what the future has in store for the core four, whether or not changes are coming in the front office, and more on Leafs Talk!The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

all right the leafs are done it's leafs talk i'm jd bunkus sam mckee justin bourne yeah i don't even know where to begin with this because i i don't know about you guys but i found myself even during this game watching it especially especially when the Leafs were down 2-0, having trouble staying locked into the moment because the weight of what could come was so big that it was hard not to let your mind wander and start thinking about potential big picture discussions that you were going to have. Leafs make a comeback. The hope starts back alive. You start spinning back into the opposite direction. And now it's over.

And yeah, hello, darkness, my old friend. The Leafs get one win at home during the playoffs. And they are packing their bags. The good news for them is they don't need to travel. They're home. They can just go sleep in their beds. Like, again, I do not know where to begin how are you guys feeling right now i'll start with you sammy i would say that the greatness of a overtime game winner when your team scores one

and i think back to the first round of how incredible that feels watching nick cousins come down there off the left wing and do his best Jeremy Rona compression and just fire one into the net. Seeing that twine be tickled, it is just as horrible the other way. Like that just is such a gut punch to lose your season like that. It's such a horrible way for your season to end. And you kind of felt like it was coming when Lilligren dives deep down on that nothing three on two that they had with Noel Achari. And I don't even know who the hell else was out there. It just felt like it was coming as soon as that puck turned back the other way.

It's kind of the way the hockey works in overtime. And yeah, man, it's a tough pill to swallow for a lot of Leaf fans. That was a kick in the you-know-what. It's just such a guillotine moment, right? Because you do believe if they score that goal, if it's the Leafs, it's just such a guillotine moment right because like you do believe if they score that goal if it's the leafs you know it's three two it's momentum it's more time it's yeah you know i think because you believe if they get it it's just the finality of it is brutal um you know not to dive too hard into all the takes but like it's impossible to sit here and be like

matthews doesn't score for five games doesn't get one tonight you know they're stuck on two goals not to dive too hard into all the takes, but like, it's impossible to sit here and be like, Matthews doesn't score for five games. Doesn't get one tonight. You know, they're stuck on two goals for the seven straight game. You can't get the three. It's the story of the series for me. Yeah. Just quickly before we get into the heart takes that pad that just tipped off

the edge of Bobrovsky's pad. That'll haunt me for a long time. Like that is a millimeter from going into the net like i don't know how much closer it can be than going into the net off that great tip by tabaris and we're doing a happy show hockey's brutal boys playoff hockey overtime hockey it is a cruel cruel cruel game and i think all of leaf nation is feeling that right now brutal way to go it it also just felt though, and again, this could be confirmation bias, whatever, but it felt like the Leafs hit a bit of a wall in the overtime.

Like they needed the break. They came out with a decent punch and they were competing and they killed that penalty, which, you know, puck goes over the glass. They kill it. And I'm actually thinking, okay so toronto down two goals comes back to tie a game it's william neilander who does it you know the guy who always was questioned whether he would be able to bring it uh long enough or consistently enough and then they kill a puck over the glass penalty in overtime and i'm starting to go into full just you know what maybe

all of this is the truman show and this has all been torturous for leaf fans so it would lead to this moment where every narrative kind of fits the puzzle piece so you're right sammy just the the brutal at just the complete slash your throat moment of no over you're done you gotta lay in it it's awful but i did think that it just it did look to me like the leafs horses had completely lost their legs in the final few minutes before that goal and you could start to feel the the ice tilt towards florida and it start to feel a little bit more dangerous yeah i think you know one thing you see from like uh grinders or fourth liners who don't get a lot of ice time as you see guys shoot pucks from distance like this is i don't know maybe it'll go in i felt like you're seeing that from matthews at the end and you know marner when he wasn't giving it to the other side you know the same things just like i

don't know i am not going to be able to get to the net so i'm just going to shoot it from out here and it never felt overly threatening the most threatening thing was when camp and lafferty and those guys were out there buzzing around it was like okay they had a clear step on the opponent but you didn't see that speed throughout the rest of the lineup to your tired point bunk I completely agree and it really did feel to me like they were hitting a wall and you look at how much they played in that game like Marner played 31 37 in that game Austin Matthews was up to 29-28 in that game. Like, they had played a ton. And I know the other guys had played a ton too,

but like throughout this series, they have played by far the most of anyone in the Leafs. That's 11-7. That's exactly it. You go to 11-7, you start to wear down in these big spots like this, and it just really looked like that's not confirmation bias. That's accurate. There was a couple times where the puck kind of got turned up through the neutral zone and it looked like

matthews had room to skate and he just kind of was dumping it in like you said that clapper that he took from inside the blue it just it really looked like they were losing it yeah i i think that you know obviously there's going to be a lot of litigation about the core four after the series and what happens. And, and really you can't even have a core four conversation because Tavares isn't going anywhere. Like he has a full no move clause. He makes 11 sheets a season. Three kids from Toronto. Yeah. He's, he's not going anywhere. So really the conversation comes down to the three guys. A lot of it I know is going to be determined by matthews himself in terms of well he and neil and are just the discussions they have with whoever

is the general manager moving forward here but i it is hard to watch this game and for me not to kind of have the number one takeaway be that kind of yet again in a series matthews and marner just didn't have like they played so much and I don't know like this just to tie it into the ice time I couldn't believe Marner was on the ice for 30 plus minutes like what was he showing you in that game that made Sheldon Keefe want to just completely burn him out Sam Lafferty barely played over 11 minutes and he just kind of did have an impact on the game his line was on the ice for a. I'm a little perplexed by some of the coaching decisions to just kind of lean so heavily on the horses, even though it was a must-win game, when the horses didn't always show great. It's the absence of something again, Port.

I don't know what to tell you. It's like that's the way to kind of describe it again it's like but how how many times tonight did you guys notice mitch marner with like a forceful play or like a really notable moment in the offensive zone well doesn't it seem like to both you guys that this is a guy that's going down with the ship like keith knows what's at stake with this game and he's like if i'm gonna go down here i'm going down with my supposed top guys like i i don't like i like sam lafferty too but i'm not you know upset at the fact that marner plays 30 minutes in an elimination game when it goes to how many minutes in overtime like that's what keith had to do and you can talk about him waiting to break them up and matthews and

marner but like i don't know maybe lafferty should have up near 14 minutes okay like i don't i don't know how much more you wanted him to play it just ultimately comes down to the inability for these two guys to deliver in a really big game i know they i know he scored in game four to send this to game five but ultimately that doesn't matter at all anymore like they didn't show up in the next biggest one here they didn't score anything so i i really don't have a problem with them playing that much you have to play them that much if you're keith you'd be crazy to not play them that much no see born i need you to split this one here just in terms of what you think because to me it's like I watch a lot of other sports like I'm not just a hockey

guy I do a general sports show um and like I cover everything and it's pretty much a basic sports principle to quote ride the hot hand and like those guys had been producing over the last couple of games and I'm not advocating for Sam Lafferty to be over 20 minutes, but I think when Mitch Marner burns out in a hockey game and you can see him basically like dragging down the ice and Matthews can't get to those spots, it's like there is a point of diminishing returns where a coach has to know, okay, I need to make sure that guys have energy late in periods. I am managing the bench here.

And if you do have guys who are having an impact on the game the way that lafferty and camp were then you should be giving them an extra shift and you should be trying to find something else for the guys so i don't agree sammy at all the problem though bunk is all game state you're chasing the game till four minutes left you're behind and so you're going i need someone who can make a play who can do something create something and those guys are so unique in their ability to create. And then in overtime, you're like, if I get these guys out there, we can end this. And how many times did he load up Tavares with Matthews or Marner?

Nylander, right? Like he was just trying to be like, end it mercifully. And the longer that game went on, the more advantage was Florida's who, you know, because the way the minutes were being doled out for the leaf so i don't i can see how the minutes got to where they got i understand generally like i totally agree those guys were playing well in the fourth line use them a lot but it was just like you were chasing this thing and then trying to end it so minutes got weird man um so do we do this conversation now because i i do think like the story of the game

and the legacy of the series is going to be coming down to matthews and marner right no question yeah yeah yeah you don't get to the inside you don't get the goals one goal between them and even that was a floater from distance you know it's not good enough yeah it's not good enough like it's you know you can you can talk about him blocking shots and you can talk about offensive offensive zone chances you can talk about his defensive work but you know they don't put him on the cover of magazines for his block shots here fellas like it's he's supposed to be a goal scorer and we talked about it today on real kipper and born this is a signature moment right it's a game five this is you know on your home ice this is the second round of the playoffs

you're in pursuit of something that only four teams have ever done in the history of the league this is the type of time where a superstar comes out and puts you know what on the table that go out there and show that i'm one of the best players in the world and maybe he had some good moments but he just simply wasn't good enough and it's a failure like it just is full stop yeah and you'll see you see in other sports um well in hockey too people like have these moments earlier in their careers not that matthews was early in his career but like it's not like the narrative for his career is written but tough to look at this particular run you know he validated by the first round he was very good

but you know you're beholden to the whole run and the standards are higher and i you know it is tough to look at this postseason run because the whole way this plan was to work was that these guys would get it done when it was good enough around them it was good enough around them we liked their fourth line their d was solid they got enough saves but you know what i mean like it's it the plan didn't work and part of that is like to do this whereas like you had everything in place and it still didn't work so so so now what yeah well here's here's the thing and i would say this too if matthews and marner had the series they just had and it was basically in any other market

i think that they would actually be getting completely crucified but here we have a lot of participation trophies being handed out when it comes to chances yeah and and it's a lot of hey they're doing other good things and hey ultimately at the end of the day these guys have accomplished this in the regular season. These are great players. And I think the frustrating thing here is if your argument is that this is always going to, you got to keep this moving forward because they have skill, right? And like they're the, some of the most skilled players in the regular season, like you're never going to be able to advocate for any kind of change or any kind of shakeup. And, and to kind of your point, Sammy, a little bit, it's Austin Matthews, a heart winner,

and Mitch Marner is someone that people were putting up for Selke this year, someone that people say is one of the top premier forwards in the NHL. And if you're going to come out of a series against a team like the Florida Panthers, that, again, is one of the leakier defensive teams in the NHL and essentially have no production. Like, tell me the market or tell me the sport. Like, what sport does this happen in where, you know, a quarterback throws three interceptions essentially

and they don't kill him for it? Where is the basketball player where they get, you know, losing five games in a series and the hooper doesn't score 20 points a game, you know, the star player of the team, they get killed for this. And like, I mean, I don't feel like you don't think they're getting killed. What? You don't think they're getting killed? I, well,

I guess maybe this is just me sort of searching for what the criticism is here, because I just, I really do think that this entire series it's a team sport it's hockey they got a good goaltender that showed up florida scored some timely goals but i just think like this is so much on those two guys absolutely no question like it's impossible to move past tavarez as a guy you expect that from the his expectations are different yeah i just but he needs to score too like yeah but he's but he's old sure but he had the puck on his stick in the slot eight times

or nine times in this series where he could have you know this all these games were so tight fellas yeah he tucks two or three the leafs could be up three two in this series or like potentially winning this series at this point like you know you know, you can talk about Matthews and Marner and you can talk about Tavares, you can talk about Willie or whatever. Like, it's just, I really do feel like it's a failure of the whole core four and in general, the philosophy. Like, I know Matthews and Marner

will probably wear it the worst because, you know, Willie scores a big goal. He makes the best Leaf in this series by a mile. Yeah, Lander turned it on from game two forward and he was just, you know, Willie scores a big goal. Healander's the best leaf in this series by a mile. Yeah, Healander turned it on from game two forward. Absolutely. And he makes the less of all of them. And I think people have already made their minds up on him either way regardless. I just really do think that it's going to be a kind of coronation of a butt kicking for these four guys, which I think – or for these three guys, which is kind of the way it's going to go here.

Borny, can I just follow up on the Tavares thing? I agree with you, Sam. And I actually think like one of the points I wanted to bring up in this game tonight is, to me, one of the big like tipping points of the series was Tavares' inability to score. And you forgive him for being slow, right? You forgive him for not being the player that he once was.

But the one expectation you have is that when he gets his chances chances he puts them in the back of the freaking net yeah and there were a couple of moments again tonight one on the power play where he looks off matthews for a backdoor feed right it doesn't guaranteed get over to matthews but he tries to shovel a puck into the net he has another opportunity for a big tip doesn't get it done he has multiple breakaways in the series like i'm with you on the tavaris thing i guess it's just harder for me because when i think of this he's just this immovable player who's clearly in a pretty steep decline but yes when it comes to criticism and

not scoring goals sammy i agree if if tavaris scores half of his opportunities in the series then the leafs win i guess my problem is is that at least he was creating some yeah like where were the ones that matthews and marner were creating i just can't remember marner having a scoring chance in this series am i being hyperbolic there like i i know he shot one in from distance can i can you remember a scoring chance he had one today yeah right in the first shift or second shift where he came in and he was a soft wrister against the blocker that yeah yeah that just felt it and just kind of right in the corner yeah he was like oh i can see the puck and it's a soft wrister i will put that

away i guess scoring chances yeah sort of subjective here but yeah right i had one just you know and so if you're not getting to the inside in the offensive zone um you know you're shooting from the perimeter and hoping for tips and screens and things to go through and kind of banking on luck it's you know they at least weren't terrible in this series and you're going to hear that and that's fine because it's the truth they weren't terrible they weren't out played but they just you know to get through they need those guys to pull them through it's a lot of pressure on them sure but that's almost all salary cap teams now your best players that's what the money is for that's right yeah you have the pressure because you're paying to be that guy that's what the money is for it's to me it just it's that that's the question that i'm just going

to keep asking people and that's the theme to me that I'll keep coming back to, which is, well, what is the bar then? Like, what is the bar? Because if you want to run it back, you've got one playoff series now that you won in seven years. And you did have some no-show performances. Your stars, once again, completely went away and did not produce in a series against a team that just, like, got lit up the round before when it came to giving up goals. And I know Bobrovsky got hot. Sure. But again,

what is the bar is the bar that if Matthews and Marner face a good goaltender and a team that's playing with some tenacity, they're just, they're not going to be able to score. The bar is that they block some shots and they kill penalties and they had to play a lot. Like what, what is the expectation?

Well, then the question is if, if you find them short of that, what is the plan to me so this is the tough one about doing this in the moment because i do feel like i'll flip flop on this multiple times i'm just going to say i know that's kind of a like a bit of a soft answer but this is how i feel about it in this exact moment to me i think you now have enough of a sample especially when it comes to Mitch

Marner in the playoffs, that the regular season player just does not translate consistently to the postseason. Again, he gets that shot that goes in against the Panthers. Good for him. He scores that goal. But that being his second goal in 50 playoff games outside of the first two games of a playoff series is just sort of a death knell stat for me. And to me, if you're looking at it from a value standpoint, all right, if Matthews asks out, right, if he wants to be traded, and I know now we're doing really big picture stuff.

If Matthews has to be traded, it changes the math on everything. But if he wants to stay, I think you still have to give him money because the history of the game is you keep doubling down on the great players. And ultimately he is one of them in the league, despite the fact that he had a really rough series and deserves criticism for it.

And I'm totally here for the people too, who have the questions about the commitment in the moment when it comes to this guy, whether or not he has that little bit of an extra gear, right? Nylander's going into an expiration year. What are you really going to be getting in return for a guy that has one year left on his contract? And like, how do you make your your team better it's going to be worth 10 on his next

exactly that you have to pay a ton for marner's under contract and i think that you would be able to sell that the pressure of the market was really impactful in what you saw in some of the post seasons and so if you're shopping someone around to me he's kind of like i don't want to say the only answer but to me pretty clearly the most obvious one at this point. I mean, we got big. We're waiting on big news now the next few days. Like Dubas can be around. Sheldon, is he going to be around?

I think Sheldon is 100%. If I had one take, that is, I will say from my stomach and I will scream it loudly is that that is probably I think that if you're going to be like really critical of Kyle Dubas, his decision to bring back Sheldon key for this season, knowing that he was outcoached at now and he's been outcoached in every playoff series that he's been a part of. I think that sort of like, what's the word for this? It's not nepotism because he's not a family member, but that favoritism that he showed to someone he had a relationship with. Yeah. That, that loyalty is, is going to be the thing that haunts me is like, what would have happened if a different coach with a different background of

experience would have come in here for these playoffs? What would have happened? That's always gonna be a question mark for me. Sheldon Keefe, in my opinion, a hundred percent gone, pack your bags. It's over.

I imagine at the start of the the year if there was a certain legendary coach that was going on podcast say he's wanted to coach the leafs while the leafs were in peril uh you know you look back on that and wonder like i i really do think that i i don't know if even dubas is going to be back do you like i i i think this i think we're really heading into a real overchange of everything. Like I think Shanahan – like this is like a real moment here where this plan I think pretty clearly has not worked. The goal – Are we at the end of the Shanna plan? Is it over?

We've seen it through? You have – Go ahead. Oh, sorry. seen it through you have or you have four go ahead oh sorry i was just gonna say that it's literally too much too soon is just the name of the game with this thing with everybody is i was a move off of lou lamorello i don't even this is not even like a lou versus do this thing i'm really trying to do here but i think that if you look back on things you go you do wish lou lamorello would have done the contracts with the young guys right like is is that something people wouldn't have wanted and that's the young guy so long ago

now god i don't know what he's got would he have gotten less snap numbers man i don't know i'm just saying that it always felt a little too soon where shanahan was moving off of lou when they moved into like that era of switching like they were having some positive momentum they end up moving off of me you go okay and then those players Marner Matthews and Nylander end up getting everything up front and that included the adulation of this fan base and so it was like what were you going to play for you had the organization by the stones and it's like it's at least a fair thing i think to question whether or not everybody them being kind of an unprecedented group in terms of being able to get all of the money before any

success is something that had an impact on what we had here so to me that's the way that this thing's going to be defined is the all or nothing or what was it called sorry uh we can and we will yeah we go down as the the too soon era and it does it's a failure at this point because i just i don't here's what i think we can say pretty conclusively right is everything's on the table we don't know exactly what's going to happen but what the this version of the toronto maple leafs that we've been following for the last you know amount of seasons is over for sure what matters the very most out of all these decisions is Austin Matthews. Yeah, no question.

More than the coach, more than the GM to me, you know, there's like, you know, he's in a handful of five guys in the NHL that can, he's going to shoot 50 in the next, next, uh, in the net next year, you know, in the playoffs against Tampa Bay scores five times massive goals. And, you know, I know he didn't score in this series but he's still he's Austin Matthews you can see what he can do so you know that's that's a biggie boy I you know I am fascinated by the thought of a fresh set of eyes on this whole thing right like it's been the same guy in charge for a really long time here now and you know you could have talked me into everyone being gone after montreal and that was three series ago that was three years ago now so i i don't know

i also i honestly though do have a fear of life beyond this because there has been stability and there has been really great regular seasons where they've run it up and they've been excellent. And like, they've looked good and listen, don't get me wrong. I do want change here, but there is the other side of this where it's like, you know, they bring somebody else in and you're like, okay, well I just,

I'm in such a state of flux here where I really don't know what I want. It's like, it's been really nice. Like if, if all things kind of go to plan, like a nothing game happens, the leafs just kind of win 3-1 and have for the last like years and years you know like you just you take it for granted and you know a lot of the filling in around the edges and a lot of you know dubas has done a lot of

great work for this team to be as good as they've been no doubt they haven't got over the hump and you can't say that regular season success is the goal so you're looking at change square in the eye but sammy i get it like i have a lot of concern that they're like we brought in keith jones you know but in toronto colors and it's and no offense keith jones but like and all this it's like wait goudis actually isn't very good, you know? But you know what though? I kind of, I know what you're saying, but I also do hate that argument against breaking up the core. It always seems to me like the position that people put it in is,

well, if you're breaking up the core four or you're firing Kyle Dubas or you're moving off of somebody, then you're bringing in an idiot or you're making a trade for someone who sucks and is all intangibles and has no you know what I'm saying like it's just yeah you can make good choices from here you're right yeah it's it's not like just like don't be afraid of the unknown essentially like there there is a possibility and it works out for you as well. I think at this point, what I would ask people is, okay, what do you think it is that you're really risking here? Because how much do you need to actually see of this formula of do well in the regular season, have a certain amount of apathy set in? And I do think that that's a part of this too, is that these guys having to treat the regular season as this doesn't matter. We just need to accumulate our points that we get to the playoffs and it's so tight for all of us. And we know the pressure, we know the implication. Like this has been three seasons of all in, in a row. There has to be a mental toll for everyone involved in this going, Oh, like all in again. That's, have you guys played poker going all in you got no chips left

you're done you're leave the table they're they're flat out has to be changed now like there's just like i'm sorry like they're like you know i can talk about the fear of the unknown that i have and that's just fan stuff but like from a business perspective from team success perspective if you go like there's just no way we're gonna sit here and this isn't reactive after a playoff heartbreak no you can't sell to the fans there's no way you can come back next year with the same stuff intact like there's just absolutely no chance like i abstain from leaf's talk during the regular season next year like i'm gonna be kucherov boys i'm gonna i'm gonna rock my hip and i'm like oh my hip boys i can't sit in the chair and do it

wake me up for playoffs no least doctor the regular season i'm going on ltir i can't do it like there's there's just no way that you can go into next year without changes and to me this next little stretch is going to be so fascinating to see what those changes are like they're so crazy though because like these guys are that we're talking about we're talking about neil ander matthews and marner are 26 25 you know like you know how it you know like if you have all three on your team in a playoff series you got a pretty good chance but i understand that it hasn't worked so you can't sell that killer the killer is tavaris that's all we that's it that 11 million dollars is what's absolutely killing you. Like, it's what you could do with that $11 million

to kind of fill out the rest of your roster so you're not, you know, as thin in other spots. Like, that is an anchor. But this has been, that was the gambit, right? It was like, all right, they're going to get the one extra centerman that's going to give them a huge advantage during this prime window we don't think the end of the deal is going to be great but during this part it's going to be worth it for us to do this and now you're through that part and you're paying the price now like this like they knew exactly

where they would be after year five of that seven-year deal and they're where they thought they would be and we're at the end of brent seabrook's contract without three stanley cups right now that's what's happening 100 yes i again though i just i do want to couch this a little just in that it was tavara's extremely disappointing is that contract horrific you know was i playing the game on my show earlier this week going what is his deal if he goes to free agency tomorrow yes yes yes right but you know John Tavares didn't hold Matthews and Marner's hands behind his back as those two guys didn't score any goals again in this playoff series he's not responsible for Mitch Marner

having what I think now is yeah nine playoff goals over 50 playoff games like I just I don't like the oversimplification of like it's all tavarez i just i think that's really unfair you're right he would be the most obvious move if his contract was not completely immovable he would be the number one thing you would focus on and say well let's keep trying with the other three guys and move this one but i just don't like that he's going to act as a shield for criticism for guys who drastically disappointed again in a round again against the Florida Panthers. I'm just saying like the, you know, it's, it's an anchor. It's an $11 million thing in a cap world where they're in a cap.

Isn't going up and boy, it ain't going to be going up with Carolina and Florida semifinals, but yeah, I know. I'm not sure that's going to drive the old HRR up the cap for another decade. Yeah. So I don't want to – you're right. That is unfair to Tavares, but it's just that number is just so daunting for just in general.

It's 11 million bucks. You can do so much with it. I have a lot of respect for Tavares and all that. These are fair comments. We're talking about hockey players and what's left. That's the Leafs, man man that's a big question hey guys at this point i think one of the craziest things with the bars and i i remember elliot friedman talked about it last year remember during the offseason where he went when are they going to bump him out to the wing and they just

could not do it this season they just did not have the depth of the position, whatever. It was too early in the contract. I don't know how you could possibly consider him playing down the middle for 82 games next year. Like, it's done. Like, he's a winger now. He's an $11 million winger. It's tough. I totally hear you, Sammy. It's just, it's hard to process it. But you're right, Borny.

The play was always built around that the other guys around him would be spectacular too, and really none of them were. So great. Tavares is 30-35 for 65 points and 16 minutes a night next year if it looks to things. So yeah, lots of other guys, UFAs, Kerfoot. There's O'Reilly, Hall. Who else have you got?

Camp, Achari. It's going'Reilly, Paul. Who else you got? Camp, Achari. It's going to look a lot different. Yeah. I don't think any of those guys you just named are coming back. Shen. Where are the troops at? Where are the troops at? I think Shen wants to go back to BC, right?

I got to tell you, I am not going to be hurt by not having to watch Kerfoot next season as a Leaf. I, again, good guy, worked hard, full respect for him. But man, in playoffs, he's a regular season guy for me. I mean, I wouldn't even go that far, to be honest with you. I'm not even saying, by the way, when I say I don't think any of them will be back next year, that I wouldn't try. Like, I would love if the Leafs tried to sign Noel Achari. I think it's pretty clear that he'd be a fan favorite here, but it's one of those things where you go,

you're a capped out team. You've got to once... That's the thing here, fellas. The Leafs don't have a bunch of cap space to just be paying free agents. They got to go back into the... Michael Bunting is a goner, right? And what else ends up...

The only way that you end up bringing some of those guys back in free agency is if you do move off of the money from a Mitch Marner and take back a smaller contract. But then what? You're conceding that you've lost the trade in a pretty significant way when it comes to the talent you're getting back? Like, they are in a pickle of a jam, fellas. Well, that's the new guy.

If there's a new GM, it's a lot easier to talk to those guys about their no trade clauses than it is for Kyle, who gave them and has been here to be like, oh, sorry about that. Would you want to go elsewhere? Like easier for the new guy to be like, just checking in here. Not as interested in you as the guy before. Fellas, could we talk about the massive controversial refereeing decision that may or may not have caused the Leafs the game? Yes. Yes. I want to go there right there.

Just to close out the free agency thing, I just want to say the other thing that sucks about having your stars not show up in these moments and having the market feel as kind of toxic as it does right now is one of the other plays of being the don't worry, we can find guys between the margins is that you always hope that guys like ryan o'reilly who later in their careers right like the the mark giordano's and the spezza's that they would want to do stuff like this and take less money around them and now that you've seen these stars just completely not have success in the postseason and there's not really that well we could be chasing rings here like who's convincing themselves that they're joining some kind of big winning product now i feel like when you're asking say a ryan o'reilly to return on a contract if you want to retain him or asking a nola chari to try to maybe you know pinch a penny here or there to retain him or take even a flat contract versus go to a market he'd feel more comfortable in as american like you don't have that added chip anymore like that like marlo thornton spezza geo they all come here because they believe that this core is

like ridiculously good as it becomes in question tougher to sell that the questions are plentiful a bouquet of questions many many questions about this car this is a bounty of questions fellas yes the question harvest this year will be very very plentiful okay yeah let's move on to the goal sammy set it up uh that was in the net as in the net i've watched it a hundred times it was in the net it was in the net like the angle that is from the front you can see enough white like if the ref screwed up not calling it a goal on the ice and then they couldn't come back from it and it just to me it was a goal i i know they tied the game so technically it doesn't cost them and the space time time continuum it's impossible to see what would have happened after that if they had to tie the game. You can't just be in a vacuum.

They would have won 3-2. But to me, it was a goal. Morgan Riley, what a star. He's the only star on this team with any guts, honestly, other than Nylander. Yeah, he is. Morgan, hey, okay. Let's do that actually quickly. I had the thought when he had that moment, I went, you know,

when the take was Morgan Riley should be the captain. And then Tavares came and Tavares was the captain. It was like, Morgan Riley's the captain of this team. Okay. He's the gut to this team. He's the heart of this team. He's the perfect blend of in his prime been here the longest.

It's like, if born, you used to have that strip Savars of the seat take, I agree, but give it to Morgan Riley after this playoff series. Like he's the guy, he's the guy you want to hear in interviews. Cause he's thoughtful and has a pulse on it. Yeah.

A hundred percent. The guy that I know is wearing it the hardest right now in that dressing room that has been here from the beginning and actually performed and was clutch and was men like, why is Morgan Riley driving the net more as a defenseman in this series than Mitch Marner? Can you just answer me that yeah i had that thought a couple times watching you know marner skated behind the net and riley put his stick his leg out and look this is the type of thing that happens when you go to the net you maybe get pulled down the puck maybe goes in

randomly like it's just i mean excellent hockey for mor for Morgan Riley in this series. And yeah, he's a, it, has he ever played for team Canada? Not in an Olympics. Has he? No, I, well, there's been no Olympics. They'll never play again. Yeah. No, we, instead we get to watch world championship hockey with Tyler Toffoli as the captain. That's the best we can get.

We look good. We look good today. He's laughing. Bordy, Sammy has a real strong addiction to World Championship hockey. I love World Hockey. Yeah, he loves it. He's a grinder when it comes to just watching those games. Just to finish my thought on Riley is, man, I just – guy's a warrior. I feel so bad for slagging him during the regular season

even though he was bad. I'm just – if I was looking looking if i was in that dressing room i'd be going everybody should apologize to this guy he left it all out there he left a piece of him in this playoffs and it's weird to say this about a millionaire athlete who's younger than me but it's like he i'm proud of you morgan like you were great you don't deserve any of the criticism that is going to come the way of this hockey club you were phenomenal he'll have a legacy here in toronto even when if this score doesn't break through people will respect his contributions to it just my two cents on the goal is that um yeah i'm with sammy and that like if they have a chip in

the puck and a chip on the line or whatever like that puck probably under the goaltender is probably in the net at some point but i don't think there's goaltender it's probably in the net at some point but i don't think there's any way you can call that in the net with what we have right now no you obviously can't i i thought it was hilarious that people had strong opinions on it like i can see it in the net or that there was that weird like here's the puck in the net when the play is clearly dead but here's the thing with it the nhl created they created gray area with this continuation rule and they had five guys who've watched hockey their entire lives on the panel arguing like a bunch of dudes at a bar that had no idea what was going on like there's so much

gray area with these rules they're like well the puck was in the net but the whistle had gone but is there continuation involved like who the hell knows the rules? Like, the rules are so weird. Like, they just create gray area to me. Like, when the goalie pulls the puck out of the net from below his skate, it's kind of being like, oh, well, the puck was probably in there at some point here. He kicked it back, though, as he stands up clearly when the play is dead.

The puck moves back over the goal line for the most definitive part. Once everyone has stopped playing, like I here's what I'll agree with you on one born the point about the technology. I'm not a big add more tech to sports guys in general. Cause I just feel like it hasn't worked in a lot of cases. Like if you look at baseball, the guys who come off the bag for a split second, you know, some of the instant replay in football, what's a catch, what hasn't been. People think that video review or certain things is going to be a catch-all and then it ends up creating problems we don't know. I'm not a huge tennis guy, but has there ever been a controversy in tennis of the ball?

No. They're like, that was out. They're like, let's look at the thing. And they're like, no, it wasn't. Yeah. It's like that one seems pretty good. And I would say. man and soccer too if the if it like goes over the line they go to like that like you know video game thing where they like show the net and then they show the ball over the line it's like

huh that multi-million dollar billion dollar organization has something pretty good maybe the other billion dollar organization that this game like frege nailed it at the intermission he's like do you know how much is riding on that goal like what's like the stakes of this are enormous and you're just like something like you know some guy with stripes on his shirt be like oh no bud that didn't go in hey i don't know did that go in hey let's go let's go let's go check with old donnie down the road see if he thought that puck went in oh gee jimmy i don't know did that puck go in like maybe put a god like let's go let's go let's go check with old donnie down the road see if he would thought that puck went in oh gee jimmy i don't know did that puck go in like maybe put a goddamn tip in the puck yeah so i all i know with this is it's especially confusing i know this is feels like

and whatever it is leafs talk so this is obviously going to come with a tint of homerism like why haven't you been talking about this before well one i've definitely talked about this before uh this is not the first time where i've gone oh they should really have the technology where you can tell this but what makes it especially confusing is that it's a player with the most equipment on the ice involved in these plays where you can lose sight of the puck fairly easily like yeah it's not like yeah it's not like this play is so unheard of that we can't see the puck when the huge goalie with the mountain of equipment is on him is making this play like it's an obvious change to me that the league should be making this just seems like a layup this seems like a victory it's going to be a bad one though for leaf fans if they do it the following

season because if they do it becomes the tuck rule And Leaf fans let it live in infamy amongst their torture chamber of just little treasures they have on the wall of this is when I hurt this time. You know, it's just it's now we have a rule. It's like Bills fans with Josh Allen and overtime. Like that's exactly what it is if they change it where it's like, oh, they changed it because of our crippling heartbreak it's great i don't know if it was in or not i don't have a definitive opinion i think that logically there's a pretty good chance it was yeah sammy i i know you you got that you saw the the one grainy photo it's like people dude this is literally going to be the news of pruder film people are just going to be breaking this thing down for years you don't get to lose in five and go if it weren't for that

one you know that's exactly it that's that's exactly it it's not like this was a game deciding goal in game seven you lost three games you're down three one yeah yeah like the yeah yeah like the pick oh did that happen i forgot about that. The pick was tough. What? Oh. So what did you guys think of Wall? Because it's a weird one because he let in one absolutely leaky goal early on. Leafs don't score more than two goals again.

So again, it's always couch with this. I just want to let everyone know that every conversation we have is filtered through the lens of the Leafs scored two goals in seven straight playoff games. Every game. Yeah. And they are built on being an offensive team and they were playing a team that literally every person that watches hockey on the planet went, well, the Leafs are going to probably score a bunch of goals against these guys. And that could be a problem for them. And can they keep up with them? It should also be mentioned too, that the Leafs power play was two of 11 against a group that still despite that had like 60 percent penalty kill in the playoffs despite 11 power plays where the leafs only scored twice but yeah what do you think of wall guys i'll start with you borny you know i think you can make all the great saves in the world and i wrote down 60 arrow up on my sheet a number of times but you just you can't

let one go through your glove or that's what's gonna you know what we're gonna remember and you know he was put in a tough spot but even the Duclair one like he goalies can make that save it's possible so he was fine I am he is not to blame for the loss I am very impressed with them he played good hockey I think there are goalies in the league who keep Florida to one or less in this game. I would say that he did as good as you can expect, really. It's a pretty big spot for your fourth string goalie or your third string goalie. And I think he went in there. He was pretty good.

Those couple goals that go in, like you said, the first one hurts bad. and i think he went in there it was pretty good like i you know those those couple those couple goals that go in you know like you said the first one hurts bad too first period but i was pretty impressed with the kid thought he made a lot of thought he made a lot of pretty great saves thought like he gave him a chance to win the game big time save percentage or something crazy what do you have 40 43 shots 44 shots like he had a lot of action and i thought you know he was solid the one he the one when chuck tried to go through the legs and then the puck landed on somebody's stick right in the slot and he stared him down with the save with the blocker like i thought you know i thought he was really good i

did i really thought he was good and it made me trust him more if i'm heading into next year i'd trust him as like a one beat that going into next year that's that's what i think too is i think you come back god again another problem that the next gm or dubas is going to have is finding a way out of that murray contract you got to basically plead with them to go on ltir and retire or yeah i don't think anybody's taking that equipment you better hope that chicago wants to tank for another bedard and we'll take that contract off your hands because morazic murray duo yeah i just i don't yeah i don't know how you get off that one is easy people have said the whole buyout thing but that's not happening the leafs are not going to carry that much money in

dead cap uh even though it's like only two something million dollars the following year like next year I think it's cheap it's like 700k and then it's two million they're never going to carry two million dollars in dead cap in my opinion it's just it's not a tenable situation for them for a team that's already capped out don't you think though that like maybe part of the deal with him coming here when they talk to him about maybe you know if it doesn't work out for season, you hear some free money, go enjoy the Swiss Alps for a year,

like Joffrey loophole. Like you don't think that was part of it. Like, I think there's, I think there's a very, very good possibility that he ends up on LTIR next year. And then we could easily get a doctor to say that he is not fit, not able to 10 goal.

He gets concussed when he sneezes this point. Like, no, I don't, I'm not making light of the concussion thing, but he's just so injury prone at this point. I'll make fun of him. He's a bandaid. And that first meme that came out with Matt Murray of him having two band-aids for pads was the most accurate, hilarious meme ever. Like, he had multiple different injuries this year,

and it was a real failure in terms of the acquisition of the guy. Like, ultimately, it's kind of funny. Like, I thought Wohl was fine tonight, too, and it seems like the Leafs have at least a guy back there. He's an NHLer. You just want some bullets and some guys who can stand in there and make some saves and he didn't crumble. He let in a really bad goal and yes,

the timeline if he makes that save, what happens, who knows. It's definitely a part of the loss. He owns that piece of it, but you at least have a guy who looks competent and showed up in the playoffs and was alright. But ultimately, so much of this season was about the goaltending

and whether or not – this is sort of why I brought it up. You go, all right, Samsonov had a really good regular season and he definitely won them a playoff series or was a huge part of it. But your season ended with the third stringer and Matt Murray couldn't go because the Band-Aid guy was hurt and Samsonov wasn't there. I think it's another layer of tough look to the way this team was constructed it just is like you you there was always going to be a good shot with matt murray on your team that you had to go to joe wall you

know your third stringer was going to be a part of your group you know i remember uh kipper wrote an article not that long ago that was about kyle and his contract thing being about dollars and cents and not if they wanted to sign him but Kyle being like no I want more money than that be curious to know if they were like okay well you know we're still not going to give you much more money but well we want you back like you know Dubas could be back you know and then then it's a fascinating thing would he fire his own coach you know would they tell him you can only come back if you don't have your own coach?

Like, but I'm going to have my ears, ears and eyes open over the next couple of days here. I think if you were going to talk about one of the biggest blind spots when it comes to Kyle Dubas' tenure, it's the goaltending. The goaltending has always been a bit of a thing with him. You know, you try jack campbell who you

know had some great stretches here obviously was good enough to earn himself a huge contract in edmonton but you know how it went last year in the playoffs you know how it went in some big games the peter marazic signing trying this matt murray experiment that absolutely did not work you give him credit for samson off because he was great during the regular season but then not available for two games when your season was on the the regular season but then not available for two games when your season was on the line right like i know he got hurt but that's what happens with goalies kipper kipper borny and i talked about this on the radio every day for three weeks before the trade deadline being like hey maybe another goalie maybe uh maybe look at another goalie here

like you know i i don't it's hard it's a hard argument to make right now because i don't think wall's the reason they lost these past two games i think he was one went through a big game and i lost yeah like one was good yeah one like yeah so i it's i think if there was one thing that you're going to point to it's the goaltending has let them down in certain spots and that's been kind of a blind spot for Dubas so I don't the more we're talking About it I really don't think he's Dubas could be back Boys like I I know As soon as the game ended is it

Rossi from Pittsburgh tweeted the The Penguins GM hunt just got a Lot more interesting yeah But when the Raptors won the championship Adrian Wodronowski tweeted that Messiah Jerry was going to the Washington Wizards Was it like at that night yeah it was right after they won immediately it was a cheap pop it was a rude move it was a dirty move here's my only thing about the pittsburgh thing is okay i get it if dubas

wants more money and power and they decide to offer him more of like a president role kind of thing right and they say you're the top of the food chain there is no shanahan you're the everything the alpha the omega whatever um that situation is not exactly an easy one to be walking like you want to go to another capped out team with their stars making too much money everyone who's important is getting worse every minute yeah just age-wise i mean yeah and if i'm sydney crosby i'm like wait you're gonna bring sheldon keith in here hell no no chance what are you talking about there's no way i i think that the next place sheldon keith has to coach is going to be like the anaheim ducks somewhere where they can sell them on like regular season and i i don't think that you can bring him into a meaningful

playoff market right away i just not not, not for my, not for my team. Not if I'm the owner. To me, the type of thing that would seem way more like interesting to do this would be like a rebuild situation somewhere where like he's going in and taking over where it's like, he's like, no, but he wasn't like in charge in charge when they were like stripping it down and building it back up. Right. Like Lou Lamorello came in here and lit the thing on fire. Like, I know he's part of the front office, but like, he's not, wasn't the guy that like did it. Like you remember all those

wild trades that they traded, like 17 guys to get Michael Grabner. One of those guys ended up being Carter Verhage, who was really good for the Florida Panthers in this series. I do. And I'll digress on that, but it just feels like if there was ever a spot that he was gonna go it's a place where he has like total control over a crappy team or maybe one that uh you know there's a new ownership group within the province that uh they're trying to have a sexy new hire and they have a tantalizing young group i think he would love to go somewhere where he could build from scratch where he wouldn't get the same scrutiny where if he decided to make some weird choices i know he wanted to try some different things but in toronto it's just like tough in this market i i think he would welcome

that opportunity i actually think he would also welcome the chance to divest himself of sheldon keefstock a little bit and just show people he's not married to one guy yeah the time for him to show that was last off season when he should have fired him but yeah uh like i agree that he probably should do that but i i think that as we're trying to build perfect dubious job here it's a little tough to you got to remind yourself that there's only 32 of these jobs and that they're really hard to come by and so yeah if pittsburgh comes to call him with a big offer and you're out there going like you know what i would really like is i'd like all the money and i'd like a rebuild and a little less pressure and And that's like, yeah, I really courted that much.

Your team won one playoff series in seven years. And now you are shockingly in an organization that had, you know, JFJ, who I thought was forever going to be at like the top of failure, GM Mount Rushmore, there will always be the Dubas stands, but there will always now be a strong case given the amount

of talent and resources that kyle dubious was given that he was their very worst one no oh my god that's a dumb thing to say i'm not doing that now i'm not doing dubious is the worst leafs gm because we're not we're then we're just divulging into dumb stuff that's yeah like i i that's a wild one to slap me in the face but yeah i don't know i that's a wild one i didn't even say that i agree with that take i'm just telling you that there is a case for that like yeah maybe if you were going to hand a team over to a general manager that was going to have those three young players the way that we thought in the moment you got to remember how things were in the moment

when Kyle Dubas was given the car keys. To say that you would get one playoff series win in seven seasons is like, it's unbelievable. It's such a huge disappointment. Yeah, but a lot of that comes down to the failures of the big group. It's like, what are the parameters in which you're working in?

I do think there's a case for it i absolutely do when did lou go to the islanders uh after year one of matthews because he left after the the the big contract over and then lou came in and lou was the guy that ended up hiring or signing toavares. Yeah. Anyway. I got to sit down and crunch the numbers on that take. That's a slap in the face take that I wasn't ready for tonight. That's a good one. Like if you want to go with it, you can go with it.

I'm just not ready to agree or disagree with it at this. No comments on that take at this time. I don't really know where to go. I don't agree or disagree with it i'm just telling you that to me i think that it's worse when you squander talent than it is when you're working from like the post-cap era when you're signing a bunch of eric lindross's and stuff like it's just it's not but at this point like i think that take probably would have been better even a couple years ago but i think at this point we know way too much about the core and how flawed they are and i guess you can you can talk about him paying those guys but like everyone would have paid them

at the time but everyone would have paid them at the times they paid them right like you know that's i don't think that i guess like maybe not trading one of them after last year you can have the conversation when you brought up montreal that's where i go back and go, yeah, you'd love to be able to see the two timelines of what if Toronto actually did decide to say, oh, you know, this is unacceptable. We're making one big change. Yeah. And what that would have looked like and how that would have manifested itself. And man, a lot of people believe that the Leafs are back to country club, right? That was the whole thing when Lou first came here was no more blue and white country club.

This is over now. They hired a coach that was supposed to have like the real juice over the players and that's not what they ended up with now at the end of this run anyway now we're getting too far down the weirdo rabbit hole 30 for 30 are we done yet yeah i think we're i think we're good um yeah i i don't even think i have a rapid fire tonight like it's just yeah i it's one last one last rapid fire for my boy noel before he goes out to play somewhere else excellent again tonight i decided that swamp thing from mario just the big stone thing that drops on people that's who he is on skates he's an absolute piston out there just hammering away like everybody

his agent should be telling him like hey man i know some team is going to offer you more money and you probably want to be back in the states but i'm telling you you will have a chain of restaurants here if you just like no you'll have it it'll you'll have every sports bar your memorabilia will be in it and people will want to sit near your jury. Achari Pie. It's a bakery. Come on in. Achari Pie. Achari's cookie house. You could do it. I think the weirdness for me, sort of to close, is just that this is going to change. We've known this same thing over and over and over again. And there always have been such intense debates around people. And now like the, the argument,

or I guess, sorry, the, the discussion I think will no longer be run it back because if someone's coming up to you and going, run it back with everybody as it is, you're just like, I'm not,

I don't like to be dismissive of people over the time was over sports, but it's kind of like a take an hour. You go, all right. I, yeah. Like you're just in it. Like you're in the cult.

Like you're completely, you're really clear dividing line at this point. like you cannot hear that take yeah you can't you you dude you cannot possibly hear that take the questions now are interesting because there's a finality to it but it's like what are the changes that come and that is a whole new world for all of us it's gonna be a fascinating a fascinating one, boys. I really don't know. I cannot believe they lost to the Florida Panthers in five. I know. It's a death nail to this era of Leafs hockey.

It really is. They didn't win a home game against the Florida Panthers. Their star player, Austin Matthews, scored no goals. They went 2 of 11 on a power play that was redesigned this year that could not have been more stacked with money, most expensive power play in the NHL, against a unit that was 23rd in the NHL. And, yeah, they completely no-showed in a game three.

It is over. Other than that, pretty good. Yeah, other than that, Morgan Riley played great, and everyone still loved Luke Shedden. Other than that, how was the play, Mrs than that, Morgan Riley played great, and everyone still loved Luke Shetland. Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln, I believe is the line. Anyways, to the people that watch and listen to the show, we really do appreciate you.

Thank you for watching and following along all year. Obviously, like all the people in the comments, all the people that subscribed, all the people that left reviews, all the people that shared it, anyway, interacted with us, reached out, you know, I hope that this has at least been, you know, a place where you could feel some frustration or some celebration that we hit some right tones. But obviously I love working with the two of you guys. That's been a pleasure.

It doesn't always feel like work. Sometimes we run these things so long because we're just screwing around and we're like, all right, i regret i'm not calling it best buds though we really fumbled that early in the program yeah i mean i tried we'll go for a rebrand next year i just if i could quickly say from the bottom of my heart thank you to everyone like that worked on this show thanks sis thank you armin thanks luke thank everybody behind the scenes i'm probably forgetting people thank you guys both of you I love both you guys very much and everybody that everybody that yeah Sam you got a tea in the ground in your mind yet are you already on the golf course listen yeah like come on I'll get over this pretty quick I don't know who's gonna be golfing quicker me or Marner but it's gonna be pretty quick um and then

yeah like I was overwhelmed throughout this playoff run by the by the reaction to this show and all the people that reached out to me and like i honestly never expected it to get as big as it did and i'm just i'm really really thankful for everybody so guys it's been a pleasure what a year just back to the same old lease can't wait to do 82 more regular season ones next year boys i'm kucherov the hips bugging me already uh for JD Bunkus, for Justin Bourne, for Sam McKee, again, follow us on Twitter and Instagram. We're going to be plenty of more Leafs breakdown stuff, probably with cooler heads and a little bit more preparation.

So if that's your thing, give us another try. So for the Real Kipper and Bourne and the JD Bunkus podcast, subscribe to those things as well. And again, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. And again, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. Next year's their year. Oh! Great ending.