Real Kyper & Bourne - BONUS: Panthers Push Leafs to the Brink

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

The Leafs fell to the Panthers 3-2 in overtime as Florida goes up 3-0 in the series. JD Bunkis, Sam McKee, and Justin Bourne break down the loss and discuss Toronto's core not being able to provide offence, Joseph Woll's performance, whether or not they believe that Toronto can come back in the series, and more on Leafs Talk!The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

all right leafs talk the penultimate episode i'm jd bunkus justin born sam mckee as always you can follow on twitter and instagram at jd bunkus at jt born at sam and mcke. Like, what is there to even say? What is there even to say about this team? 19 years they wait to get out of the first round. They show up in the second. They get the opponent that they would have handpicked, probably had they done a draft out of all of their potential playoff performers.

And the Toronto Maple Leafs show up in a must-win do-or-die game and lay an absolute egg. I, whoever wants to start, go ahead. I am sick for this franchise. I'm sick for this fan base.

I'm sick for this city. Justin, go ahead. I get the vibes. This is a Leafs fan vibe. You guys seem very upset and I feel like Sam should have this one. I, I gotta say, I'm just flat out disgusted.

I really, really can't believe it. Well, I shouldn't say I can't believe it. I should have believed it. It's a game where it's a do-or-die game. It's a Game 7 situation, right? It's the first real win-or-go-home situation that they've had so far in the playoffs. And they acted like it. It was just the big four with tight buttholes the whole game, not converting, not like,

I mean, how many shots did Matthews even finish with tonight? Like, it's just a really, really, really upsetting performance in a do or die game for a franchise that had more momentum than they've had in 20 years their fan base was excited like you said hand-picked team i just i really can't believe what i watched tonight like i wasn't you know you come to expect certain things watching this core but i i have to be honest fellas the reason it hurts so bad is because i just didn't expect it i thought it was different and it was the same old stuff it just really was it's really really tough pill to swallow yeah yeah uh yeah i mean that sums it up pretty nice go ahead share a thought well you know my i guess it's such a take

that like no one really wants to hear necessarily but like they they come out i'm not saying i'm not going to come out here and say they played good i'm not going to do that thank god well you can't because they didn't so no but they come out on the road against a good team you know in their building and i think they gave florida six shots in the first period like i all my my problem with them tonight is that nothing happened offensively this is a team that's supposed to be built around their guys that break games open. Elite guys, game breakers, Nylander, Marner, Matthews, those guys didn't do anything offensively.

No sustained pressure, no rebound chances. I thought as a team, so if you're going to critique coaching, I thought the team was structurally good. Florida didn't have as much. You know, Toronto had more ozone time, all that stuff. But the difference is supposed to be that you have that foundation. Then your guys go do the thing. Their guys didn't go do the thing.

You know, Borny, all of us have been watching the sport our entire lives. And to say that the Leafs core four guys played without heart is an understatement for me tonight like you mentioned it those those four guys this was the entire gambit of the franchise this was Kyle Dubas's bet that we can and we will era right four guys that will drive a team to success these four guys are who you put the entire bet on those four guys have zero goals in a playoff series against a florida panthers team that was 23rd in the nhl on the penalty kill one of the worst teams in the nhl at keeping pucks out of their own net and is fielding a defense core that uh a former nhler told me the other day is borderline ahl like this was disgraceful from them tonight. This wasn't like, oh, well, you know what?

You got goalied. Oh, well, you got some bad luck. Oh, you were really around it tonight. This was just a pure and full choke job. And like, we can go through each and every one of those players. But to me, like, boy, oh boy, did the Mitch Marner of the Montreal Canadian series sure show up tonight? Like, couldn't make a pass, couldn't control an exit, turning over pucks.

Where was Matthews' legs? Like did he burn out completely from having to play 24 minutes the night before or a couple of days ago? He's in the prime of his career, and he's got no legs. I'm watching LeBron James at age 38 rip up and down a basketball floor every single night. He seems to be kind of fine like what what's the excuse here what was john tavarez's impact on the game tonight exactly

like there is no excuse there is no excuse and it's the game starts and matthews breaks in and he absolutely zips one off the crossbar and i'm like okay good you know like here we go and then that may have been his last meaningful contribution into the game like i i i can't believe i keep saying that it's not i can't believe it they were so bad in this game like i really can't understand how everything that's riding on this in terms of like they know the stakes with everything they know the stakes with the coaching staff with the front office with the fans with the team with the history and everything and they know the stakes with everything they know the stakes with the coaching staff with the front office with the fans with the team with the history and everything and they know the stakes and you go into this game and you play like that like there was a time where i

was wondering if they were going to have to benchmark like i i had that thought crossed my mind i'm like can they like can they keep sending them out there? Because the turnovers were not only, like, egregious, they were in the worst spots on the ice at least. I don't know how many he ended up with tonight. I didn't look at the stats, but eye test-wise, it had to be six or seven good ones at least. And those two behind the net, the back pass one, I'm just like, I was flabbergasted by you know how bad he looked

through so many stretches of this game it's just it's really really surprising with all the stuff that's riding on this game to look like that and it just fits their narrative perfectly it really really doesn't and they got they got the first series like and everyone it just it's impossible it's impossible not to think that they just rested on their laurels and it's just a perfect encapsulation of this Leafs core where it's like oh you had a couple good performances in a row time to sit back and they've done it over the whole time the entire Matthews era where they win a few games in a row and then they come out on a Tuesday night against the Panthers and they play like, and guess what?

They did it again, except for three games in a series after they beat the Lightning. Like it's unbelievable that we're sitting here having this conversation after last week, the momentum they had. Like I'm sick about it. What's so hard for me to analyze,

and like I try really hard to objectively analyze hockey when i talk about it and obviously we have a leaf show so i'm familiar with the ins and outs of this core but what's hard to analyze is the absence of something and for me that's how their seasons have died out is not you know yeah there's been the odd turnover we talk about the one but like it's generally just waiting for something to happen that never happens with this group and so for me it's not like i bet you went through that game matthew's blocked a lot of shots turned a couple of pucks over in the d zone you know i bet you we go through it and it's like it wasn't awful however it's the absence of the greatness, that moment, that whatever, that in these sort of situations is it's become a sample size large enough to say it's fair to critique. Yeah, of course it is. And I like comparison is the thief their careers all been considered, you know, top 20 players in the game, which like I think is kind of fair considering Nylander scored 40 goals this season.

For them to have zero goals through three games, for them to play with such little force in a do or die game like sammy you're right it's like it's that absence of something but it's also been present all along which is these guys don't have any jam like they just don't have the guts that it takes to be great players in this game and maybe they evolve into that at some point in their careers and maybe some of them develop it but like they've tried every iteration of transplanting different guys around this core four and when it comes down to it the same four guys do the exact same thing which is no show in these massive moments like how could you not just come out with your hair on fire they had two days off i was texting with some people like around the game being like hey what are you seeing tonight what are you seeing tonight the response i got back unanimously was i thought

they were going to come out with their hair on fire is that the way that you would describe the way they played tonight a group with their hair on fire like where's the level of pride for some of these guys to look across and say hey did you see that leon dry settle had four goals last night you see that the oilers didn't want to go down 2-0 in a series so their biggest stars just showed up and dominated you look around the history of the game what do you say about great teams? When their back's against the wall, you're going to get a desperate effort. How do you not get that from this team?

Time and time again, and then look back at it and go, well, you know, there was this process, and if you just keep, it's done. Like, they're done. This core is completely done. You cannot look anybody in the eyes anymore and say that it should be, like, rolled back again

because of talent there's more to this game than just skill there's more to life than just being good at something and you look at like dubas and he mean he's got to be sick right like how many different iterations have the bottom six and different d-men and all the different stuff that he's mixed and matched and he seemed to finally sort of find the bottom six mix here that are at least contributing in these games you look at lafferty scored a goal tonight thought he was popping thought achari had a good playoff thought ryan o'reilly had some moments where he was really good for them like the bottom six has been good enough for them to win these playoff games like you know if these they were begging out for what they pay these four guys for tonight, they were, they, all you needed, it was a two, two game for the entire third

period. And all you needed was one of your incredibly high paid individuals to go out there and do what they're supposed to do. And it's not like it was game two where they're buzzing around the net. Like the amount of high danger chances in that third period. I, I don't know. I was watching with,

you know, my shirt in my mouth. I had to change my shirts. Cause my mouth was, my shirt was soaked, but like, I don't know what the high danger situation was. It felt like they had nothing in that third period.

And with what's on, like I tweeted before that period. So did you bunk like the amount of stuff on the line going into that third period and for you to come out like that i just i can't wrap my mind around it and i feel like i'm just talking in circles but i just cannot wrap my mind around your core guys looking like that in that massive of a moment. It's unfathomable. It's embarrassing. It's disgraceful.

Like, I'm disgusted. You know, so going into this game tactically for Sheldon Keefe, one of the things that he would have wanted to change, you're trying to beat Florida's pre-pinch, right? The D come down the walls a lot. In the first period, they stretched everything. They went up the middle. They got four odd man rush lot in the first period? They stretched everything. They went up the middle. They got four odd man rushes in the first period off that they kind of had really exposed

a weakness in Florida. And so for me, I was like, okay, like we're going to get chance. You're going to get to see Nylander streaking through the middle. It's, it's open for them to make some hay. What ended up happening, I guess, is they tried all that stretch stuff, but they left them really disconnected. There's no support when they went long, they tip pucks in Florida,

got it back. They turn it over, you know, like, I don't know if Florida made an adjustment on top of that or what happened, but it just, it didn't seem connected offensively tonight.

Both teams didn't have much. I mean, I think that the final shots, 25, 23 or something pretty slow game slow game for these two teams. Yeah, they got those opportunities early, Borny. They score a goal, and I'm asking SIS to put together stretch pass packages because you wrote about it in one of your articles this week,

just how it was a vulnerability of Florida. And I thought, look at Borny, like nailing another thing that's going to end up happening here. What did they finish the first with? I want to say it was four shots. What, four shots? Five. Yeah, like four or five shots. four four shots on goal four nine eleven like that was them throughout this game again a team that is predicated entirely on game breakers um i like

matthews had one good really look in this game i that i remember knelander made a great had a touch of value tonight yeah you know i i can't name one real positive thing marner did outside the penalty kill with the stick you know like it's just they marner matthews and tavaris all were uh dash one with two shots on net each, zeros across the board. Willie Nylander finished with a helper and was, yeah. So he got an assist on the Gustafsson goal. Yeah, to kind of like add to your point, I thought that the depth players tonight were phenomenal. I thought that the blue line was really solid,

like not a ton of mistakes. I thought that they killed a couple of cycles. They were hard on pucks. You know, they were winning puck battles. You could tell that there was like a real urgency there, right? Like the lift they got from Lafferty and camp,

especially who like, seem like, like, what have you been saying for forever is Toronto needs those support players to actually show up in a game. And just have a random game where you're great. And they were, and they,

they really were, they get Gustafson makes a big play in the game. Obviously know he's prone to make some mistakes but he comes up with a huge moment another depth guy from your blue line you got everything even the backup goaltender steps in and you can't fault him for anything like you you can't fault him for a single one of these goals like there's just not one excuse that you can point to with these guys and that's why to me this this is the defining game of the core four like everything that you ever had if you were in the camp of defending these players or against these players whatever it is this is going to be the thing that you point back to and say yeah well they had their moment they had their opportunity they talked this

big-ass game their coach was talking about how they're still confident how they outplayed the team in the other game they were going to go on the road they were this excellent road team they're going to have their fans and they completely stunk it up and they added nothing to the rest of their group that did show up it's just again it is just from those four and so you saw no come back then for you no uh the they get the brooms out baby they they're going they're going into the they're going into the quit zone big time on wednesday night we have to wait till wednesday to watch them quit in game four can't wait yeah and actually you know what it's that'll be more defining than this is what kind of effort

do you get what kind of belief is shown i can tell you exactly what they're gonna get like if you got this tonight borny what are you going to get Wednesday? I don't see. I don't think the team was as bad as you guys thought the team was tonight. I understand. Yeah. That's what this whole conversation is about. The rest of the team was solid. Like the fourth line.

I was like, put them out there in overtime, get camp over the boards, get Lafferty over the boards. Kerfoot was playing well, like, like every other person on the team was solid like truly and it just was came down to four guys not being able to not convert chances like there was a problem in game two to to engage

and drive play yeah like i don't know what this the zone time was tonight but how much time did marner and matthew spend in the offensive zone like can i don't know how you look that up 5 30 to 450 and for the game total team so borny to me the thing is is like there was this common um this common talk on raptors twitter this year is if you looked at the Raptors advanced metrics, they were actually not so bad. They were viewed as like a middle of the pack above average team and that they had a bunch of bad luck. Right. But what it really was in our boy, Blake Murphy did a very good job at this as season end, whenever people tried to put the packages together of what he dubbed like the fake comeback where the Raptors would be able to be like, they'd be down

a game 20 all game long. And then basically when the other team's kind of going to sleep and thinks they have it in hand, the Raptors would run up the score a little bit and make it seem closer than it is. And so I'm not as convinced as you, Sammy, that the Leafs are just going to pack it in and completely no show the game. I actually kind of feel the other way about it where they show the fake comeback. And to me, that's almost more infuriating because it's going to rekindle some form of debate for the some people that still have some belief in this core. But for me, I'm going to remember this moment. This one will be crystallized for me pretty significantly. Obviously, barring the Leafs actually winning four in a row,

but God, the odds of that happening at this point, it's just come on let's let's be realistic here yeah even if they win a couple of games right and they look good doing it and people try to make the argument of well they were the better team in game one and two and they got goalied and then they just had one bad game it's like nah nah nah you don't get to have one bad game with this core four and like sammy and i are with you dude we get it like the team was good structurally it was all right They had depth players show up. The goaltending was okay. It's none of this stuff. The key question about the series was,

do you keep the core players, right? And that's been it every single off season is roll those guys back out there for the next year. Don't make some panicky decision where you trade a super talented player just for the sake of making a move. But at this point, like that's what I think happened tonight with those four guys you had an opportunity just like you've had year over year over year to kind of keep the band together and prove that you're not what people think you are

and tonight they just they completely defined the worst case scenario about the four guys on this team so two thoughts just you know this is all pretty doom and gloom fellas the two my two thoughts are just yeah yeah no no yeah i'm sorry you know i yeah i don't know what you want at the window here could injury affect your opinion no and could the fact that you both think that the depth in the team structure is going to affect your opinion of keeping the GM or coach. I, I, to be honest,

Borny, I really do think that this is now reached the point of scorched earth. Like, Oh, no kidding. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Like you look at the way that man, if they,

it's going to be potentially what is on the line Wednesday night is one playoff series win that let's be honest now, looking back on it, let's, let's play this game. Now they were not the better team. They were not. They ran into a goaltender that let in every single goal and they won three road games in overtime. If you're going to do the, who's the better team game, it's going to hurt you looking back through their history, though.

But like in terms of them through playoff series? Yeah, if you want to say, well, they were better than Montreal and they didn't win, so are we playing it matters if you were better or not? Or does it matter if you win or not? I'm saying that if you're going to look at this thing at a whole, the one playoff series that you won came against a team where their goaltender completely won in the pot and you won three games in overtime.

Like I'm just saying that that has to be kind of looked at through the lens of this thing. Like they had some real tight, but periods and some tight, but moments. And now if you're looking at the points of some of your stars, like from Marner, for example,

who now has completely cooled off, you're going, sorry, how many points did he get in those blowout games? How much of what he was doing was 7-2 against Tampa Bay in game two of the series? Okay. I just – I think you show yourself in important moments,

and I do believe in character, and I do believe in jam, and I do believe in the intangibles in this sport. And at some point to me, I'm looking at this and going, you're just wasting everybody's time. If you try to roll this back and pretend that what we saw in this game, like doesn't matter or that the sample size of these massive moments doesn't count more than 25 regular season games when you're playing, you know, a mediocre group of NHL teams that basically don't even care to be there. Yeah. I think if you look back on that Tampa series, if you put Bobrovsky on Tampa,

the Leafs lose in like six games or five games, like Vasilevsky killed them looking back. Like I just was expecting, I was like, oh, the Leafs are doing a great job against Vasilevsky. And then you see a guy that's like hot and playing well. And it's like,

oh, he's just like stopping those ones from the point every time. Hey, like those ones aren't trickling through him every time. Hey, like it just really feels like, oh, he's just like stopping those ones from the point every time. Like those ones aren't trickling through him every time. Like it just really feels like Florida just looks better. I don't know. Like it's crazy to say that. But like in game two, they're obviously not the better team.

But tonight, I just from the drop of the puck, I'm like, how are they going to beat them? I'm like, I don't feel like even I was prepared to come on here if the Leafs won this game in overtime. It's like, even if they won this game tonight, are they going to beat them? Like, they just are playing so much harder, so much more jam. Like, all their guys are just, their top guys are just playing so much harder. I don't know how to explain it other than that and maybe it sounds unfair but it just seems that they are just an intense group that's hot and wants it and the Leafs went into this probably thinking that they got lucky not getting Boston and it completely flipped on them immediately well okay just to like to point to the what's fair thing right like Bourne I guess I would ask you that situation that that question back to you is like what else do you need to see i guess to want change like like what i don't want to see another year i haven't said a thing about not wanting change oh no no i'm just i know you're playing devil's advocate here i'm just i'm asking you the question about like how you feel about this like what else if you were sitting down in that room and they're coming to you and they're

panning it over and they're going hey so are so are we overreacting here? Like, what is the case that you're making to say, well, I do think that there's X left to see with these guys? Yeah. You know, I think the hardest answers are like, well, Tavares at $11 million is not, he can't create it five on five. So what are you going to do with that guy? He's got a no trade clause. You know, there's a pretty big issue and a lot of salary that's used up. create it five on five. So what are you going to do with that guy? He's got a no trade clause. There's a pretty big issue and a lot of salary that's used up. So look around the room and say, how do we start with this before we do anything else? And then you would have to have a fundamentally deep conversation about the character of the people we're talking about, Matthews, Marner,

Nylander after that. Because I don't question John Tavares' will or effort. And frankly, I'm hesitant to do with anyone. Like, Matthews is not bad tonight. It's just, where are those moments? I don't know, man. They would know so much more than us about off-ice and habits and how they take care of themselves. They go down to Florida and party.

Is anyone out at night? We don't know those sort of things. If you have you have off ice doubts then it's a lot quicker to say we got to move on their commitment isn't to hockey if it is boy i didn't i wouldn't want to trade them to another team and all of a sudden watch them playing for you know whoever colorado next year yeah there's always that fear right i would just say this i don't think it's a matter of marner doesn't care you know or you know of Marner doesn't care, you know, or, you know, John Tavares doesn't care. Pretty strong implication here that they don't care, bud. No, no, no.

The implication isn't that they don't care. It's that there's something like one is I think what we saw from Marner tonight was just straight up choking again. Like we've seen that with him in the past where he's flipping fucks over the glass. Like to me, it's just there's there's two things with Marner that I think are very real that we've seen enough of in the past where he's flipping fucks over the glass everything like to me it's just there's there's two things with Marner that I think are very real that we've seen enough of in the playoffs one is that he seems to tighten up in these moments but also that just size does matter in these things like the playoffs do get more physical and it's harder for a player like that to impose himself game to game like for him to create the same

amount of space that he normally does that we're used to in regular season games it's just not there guys aren't willing to give you that extra step they're not will they're not going to quit on a play the same way so to me it's just how much space do you guys feel like Marner has in these series how many times do you feel like you know he's ripping a puck off somebody and then he's just dangerous where everyone looks like they're kind of caught flat-footed and he's paralyzing you with his vision and his playmaking i just i haven't personally seen that in this series and i've seen this go in the past i don't think the guy doesn't care i just think that there are some limiting factors with his game he's a bit of a choker and with matthews yeah i do think like

man there were some moments in this game tonight if you want to talk about character stuff where i hated matthews's body language like you're the leader of the team you're supposed to be the alpha the guy that people look at and say man we should win because we have this guy on our team and look on the bench so many times just not talking anybody staring forward i know we were that one puck and he slunched he's you know hunched over and he's not looking too comfortable but where was the moment in this game tonight where matthew showed just some anger and was yelling at a teammate and telling them to just kind of get engaged so again i don't think it's like a i don't care thing i just think some guys have that inert fire and some guys on this team might not be able to string that together night in night out i just

don't yeah i i mean i i think the in the first round marner was pretty dynamic like there's no question they won his they won his minutes handily in the first round like he was really really good like you know goal share wise throughout the first full first series but you know like this is the playoffs and the goal is to not win one playoff series it's to win two and when the games have gotten more important and bigger he's been baggled like he's been he hasn't been here at all so i think like i obviously am not questioning they're they're caring like that's not what i'm doing i just think that like yeah they some guys are rise to the occasion. Look at what Leon Dreisaitl is doing.

And everyone kind of kills him, myself included, for defensive stuff. And there's the conversations about him being better than Matthews and Leaf fans defending it or whatever. Every big game that guy plays and he scores two goals. He scores a hat trick. He scores four goals. They go down to Vegas. They need a game. They it last year like it's just yeah it's there's certain guys

that have it and just have the ability to elevate their game in big games and i think it's pretty clear here now that the games have gotten even bigger than the first round of the playoffs that they're going away again. And it's just, I don't, I don't know how else to say it other than that. I just really, I just really believe that leaf fans have been blessed. And,

you know, you're so excited to have this core of incredible four guys that you've never had in the team's history. And the curse of it is is that none of them like have the killer instinct none of them are want to cut someone's head off to win a game none of them have had that ever and like you're you're so right about matthew's body language like mcdavid is yelling at guys and think about what mckinnon's like if they're losing a game or think about what sid is like if they're losing a game or gino like they want to you know slash somebody's face like they're so pissed off they're losing it just doesn't look the same with this core four

and it just it breaks my heart and borne it's fascinating because we've talked about the taping grit to the core thing before versus having it within the players who play. And you're getting some answers. And the grit always sort of defers more to the core. Like the grit that comes in. Sure, like Shen beat the crap out of Jeno. But like, you know, he's on his island by himself. But like it always feels like there's never any brute like melees in these games because it kind of feels like grit guys they bring in don't know that these guys don't want to get into it.

Like Matthews didn't even want to play with bunting anymore because he was afraid all these scrums all the time. Like it's just it's it's it's a blessing and a curse with the Toronto Maple Leafs that we were given the four best, maybe most players in the franchise's history and none of them have any killer instinct but like beyond that okay like and I know that we're doing intangible stuff here but Borny like when you're saying Matthews wasn't that bad tonight right like what's the bar for a great player because he had two shots on goal and he's a guy that's a 60 goal scorer in the. Like I do think that's bad. Like, I don't know if the bar, if the bar is not, you were bad. Like you got some block shots in a playoff game.

Cause you played a bunch of minutes and like you were defensively structurally sound like, okay, that's great. That's what Nola Chari is here for. You know, that's what David campus here for, for a superstar player of his caliber to have two shots in a must win game

on the road, like against this and we literally just did this that was the absence of something conversation we already had yeah but i just don't know how that's not like bad like that to me is really bad it's really bad yeah that to me is just quite frighteningly awful we have established bad oh bad they are bad i'm just i'm really hurt for the fan base that got to celebrate this you know monkey off the back thing that after 19 seasons it was just you know sammy you and i went out that night and just seeing people in the street celebrating it and everyone wearing their jerseys and just feeling like they don't have to be the butt of a joke for one second right like and then you roll into the very next week that's a week ago one week and it's just completely back to the

same hell you've always been in which is questioning the jam of the group what's going to happen during the off season never be free why can't you just get over this hump like it is just it's it's backbreaking from the standpoint of looking at people who care about this team the way that they do like i just i empathize with leaf fans so much and i again i know that people love to clown on them because they get a lot of attention but leaf fans have had nothing for two decades like they got one playoff series win and all this torture and people dunk on them like non-stop because they like to try to have belief in their team and it's like god they just get sucker punched again i thought about i texted you guys being a leaf fan that spent money to go down

to that game and sat in that arena surrounded by what pretty good panthers fans good for them they showed up by the you don't think so i think it's sick you can show up for two weeks all year good for you you schedule you schedule you schedule your leafs game every year for march 29th for the march break so you can fill your stupid building and then the playoffs come around they're like yeah no tickets for you guys who keep us afloat yeah they were fine for they were pretty quiet in a 2-2 game in the third period, and they're all sitting there like, what sport is this? What's an offside? Like, they don't care.

Like, guess what? Guess what? I'll tell you right now. If the Panthers were down 3-0 in a series, I bet you old cats talk wouldn't be getting many views. They'd be at the bar. They wouldn't care. Like, they don't care.

That's what kills me. The Leafs are losing to a franchise that just, just like the level of caring for between these fan bases it's like the panthers lose this game in four games like does it make sports radio in sunrise like they're like f1 was there the heater hot off season you know i don't know is there a draft that's gonna happen in like college or something like this the level of care between these two fan bases. And like you said, all those people fly down there. They spend all this money. And you go down there, and that's the performance.

I would never recover from that. I would truly... I've been broken a lot of times. You're going to recover from this? Nah, nah. I'll recover. I mean, that's what I always do. I've been a Leaf fan my whole life borny like i i like the real at least the hedge is working out oh yeah

yeah i am rich but uh the real scary thing here for leaf fans is that you waited so long and i'm talking about the core four again you waited so long to have this kind of talented players like i remember the conversations used to have with my dad being like the leafs could just get a center behind sundine or the leafs could like in the crappy years through the 2000s the leafs could just get a number one center and like they've been blessed with all this incredible talent and i said to myself at the start of this like run seven years ago like if these guys don't get it done what happens next and it's like it's seven years and they've had one playoff series and it's like now what the general manager doesn't have a contract two of your biggest players who have not performed in big games are up for contracts this

summer your coach is now like under the spotlight it It's just like, you've gotten nothing. And it's heading towards nothing town fellas. Like it's terrifying. This isn't two years. This is seven or eight years now of this. It's crazy. Do you think the Flyers would trade the number one pick when they get it tomorrow for all of the guys you're mad at today?

I think they would. I mean, you want to have that conversation, Borny? I'm ready. I'm not in the right headspace for that conversation. I am. Let's have it. This is why you don't do things with no sleep. But I'd be like, deal, right away.

Done deal. You guys never see that dating show where the person has to press the button and it's like the person that presses it first is saying no to the other person? Like, get out? That would be me just ramming that button the second like an ugly person sat down as me for the conor vidard trade just yeah yeah I'll do that I'll start I'd like to start again with carbonar and fresh slate see you later guys uh yeah all your bags are packed honestly the way that Tavares has played in this series it would almost be worth it to trade one of those guys to get off the contract like it's just it's it's it's so ridiculously bad what you're seeing from the guy every night. Okay.

So let's get – try to get this back on the rails to a certain degree. I will say that I know that's what people want tonight is a bit of the bloodletting. I know that that's what I want. I cannot imagine sugarcoating this loss in any way. I can't – I have nothing good. Like I can't be like – I'm a Leaf fan. I've been – my whole life is like they've given me this platform because i'm a passionate person i'm not gonna come on here and give you one positive

thing is there any is there any leaf fan in any bar or any living room or any place around that arena that's leaving there and being like i thought I thought Matthews blocked a couple shots tonight. That was great. No. No. No. It's all bad. I'm sad. Devastated. Devastated. And everyone that's watching this show, if you're a Leaf fan, you're devastated.

If you're not a Leaf fan, you're drinking up my tears. And I'm sick for my brethren because we're just going to take a goddamn beating for so many weeks here. Like, it's beating time it's a beating time the the 67 chant is going to start to get so long that you're going to be like 1967 i was i was grasping at straws tonight chris cuthbert's like joseph wall has a chance to win the first uh the first game in relief since terry saw chuck in 1967 i'm like oh maybe this is the sign reinhardt oh great it's not the sign we still suck leaf suck and then you die so that's my one positive tonight is that i i did i really like joe wall like i thought he came

in he bit as hard as you can possibly bite on the declare goal, but that's one hell of a move, and it's not on you. He's good at that move. Yeah, that's an incredible move. Like, yeah, what are you supposed to say? The guy comes in ice cold on a power play. And, Borny, can you tell me what the hell happened on this play? Like, what is supposed to happen?

Because I know a breakaway is not supposed to happen we roll that yeah you just you know both uh justin hall and jake mccabe have to have their sticks to the inside and hall gets a real head start in the outside lane where he seems to think the puck is going so he's outside the dots mccabe is kind of drifting to the other lane they need to both have their sticks in the middle of the ice. It's essentially all it'll take, and the D-man won't even try to make the pass. I don't know if we got the back angle. Probably not, but let's see here. They're just both haul their cuts to the outside.

Declare's fast, but that player's there on every single power play. It's there. You never see that pass because it should never be there yeah i just i just assume it's like both defenseman's fault but i guess maybe that's just a little bit more hall um yeah that's a tough one and then there's just a deflected goal that goes in on the kid and then the last one he's a little lost but again it's just you know you give up opportunities in your own end for a team to cycle and a guy like like Reinhardt is going to just great move by Reinhardt on the overtime. Yeah, like really just a quick play scores it.

I guess my takeaway with this is, well, one is I know this is stupid, but yeah, the series isn't over yet. I'm rolling back with Walnux game. I like I don't know what Samsonov's injury is. I know he's been playing with one, but to me me i'm turning the page here and i'm using this as actual information moving forward like i need a spark if i'm toronto if i need to win four in a row i need a spark and i'm saying the kid gets the net moving forward it is what it is samsonov like you've obviously been playing through something he got smoked on that play by shen which is generated again off of a turnover by the leafs

a soft play by austin matthews who just doesn't get a puck in deep and because he's got so much heart and he cares so much and he's just caring all the way and that's why he's just caring to get the puck in deep but yeah it goes back the other way and his goaltender gets absolutely shattered on the play and yeah uh samsonov limsoff but i i just thought roll wall was quality man i just i felt good with him in the net there was only like one or two moments where he looked jittery he settled in i'm rolling with him the rest of the way if that's one game or four i do have a positive and now that we're looking to next season that's gonna be great he's good goalie i think the least actually might have drafted a goalie

that can play for them in the regular season and maybe in the playoffs as next season chats go sammy matt marie is available he's fine he's been available the whole time and they've chosen to have wool on the bench so you got another year left of his deal yeah i don't know can i i was gonna ask you like is there any reality that you get that desperate where you just go, we're putting him in the net? Well, no time like the present. Is that a McKee zero? No. No chance.

I thought about, because when they went, he's ready. I thought, I wonder how long he's been ready. Because what? He had, it was a concussion last one, right? I can't remember because he had five different injuries this season they were all different spots but i did have that thought of hey if wool wasn't great tonight what would happen but i think wool was good enough to justify keeping it and yeah i thought he like is i don't think he's athletic and as you know got the pedigree of samsonov but he's quiet in the net like he is

he's not lunging all over the place like the puck hits him he just so he's very fundamental and square and quiet so i do yeah i mean yeah mike mckenna said he should been starting the whole time which is a wild take but i i but he actually had the best fancy stats of every Leafs goalie. Yeah. Yeah. He, he's, he's a good goalie. And that's one positive from this is when I start next season and torture

myself for a full six months, which I can't wait for and talk about the regular season for a full year. And it doesn't matter at all. I'll be like, Oh, well, it's a fun storyline. We can talk about it.

It doesn't matter when they have eight new players and a new coach. These pointless games for these pointless games that don't matter before they lose to a worse team in the playoffs when none of their stars show up it'll be great to talk about wall can't wait yeah this is what i'm talking about though is yeah it's it it genuinely to me oh ryan is yeah that was okay if we were going to power rank most confusing i cannot believe, plays of the game. Ryan O'Reilly passing a puck back into his own zone on the tape of the Panthers' best player. That was the number one thing I would have drafted in the this will never happen draft. If you had to watch that one go in with four minutes left and that was the game winner, I mean, I don't even think we could have held Leafs talk tonight.

You couldn't handle it, Sam. I have to say that that was rather audacious by Mr. Bennett but I I liked it good move had the whole top of the net open if he gets any elevation like that would have been I mean there's a couple things that it would like I mean the Leafs lost and they you know they're going home on Wednesday but the thing that there's a couple things that really twisted the knife if you, you know, Sam Bennett, who probably should have been suspended for this game, goes in and scores a between the legs Merrick Malik game winning goal with four minutes left. That would have been pretty sweet. And I'm sure like I'm not saying this because I don't really think that the Leafs played hard enough to get any penalties called on them tonight. But Wes McCauley being the ref when they have their first ever playoff game

with no power plays is incredible. That's just incredible. We all agree though. There was nothing really missed or anything. Absolutely. If anything, the Leafs got away with three or four egregious ones in the final minutes of the period.

Gustafson hooked on to somebody there was a pretty clear trip like i i really hope that no leaf fan comes close to grasping at that straw is what i'm getting at here yeah um yeah it was the next topic i was going to bring up any issues with the fact that they didn't get any power plays but to me this just gets back to the same thing that's the theme of the game which is your stars are supposed to impose themselves on the game and drive play and force a team like the panthers to be hemmed in like you're supposed to basically cycle the puck a bunch and cause them to make a desperate play because you got a mark stall type who's on his last pull you Pull you down by playing in his own end. Exactly. Make an infraction. Yeah.

Make them chop you down. Cycle the puck. Do a couple turnbacks. You know, get the puck down low. Get along the boards. Something. The only chance that the Leafs had at drawing a penalty tonight was Bunting flailing around.

He was full back to like the Bunting. Oh, my God. He gave you two good games of. I joined 58. two or three games of good michael bunting and then 58 was just back to his old tricks tonight just like stay on your skates for maybe 35 seconds when a puck goes into a corner please he was a full flop fest yeah like we'll do the postmortem comportly uh the postmortem completely when they're actually out of it but i'll do it no no but i don't want to do it still sam you can't bury an alive body yeah i know sam i mean literally sam is hitting

the leafs in the head with a shovel as he buried them in a shallow grave hello smother from mckeevy he's just like please be quiet please go away say i am sour like so sour you capital s nearly established that during the show i don't think anyone's confused about the wavelength that you're on we're trying desperately to get the show like halfway back on the rails here like just flailing at you um but yeah the the interesting thing i think in game four is do you go back to 11 and 7 i don't know man listen i love a lot of the things gustafson did with the hockey puck tonight i can't you can't put him on the ice it goes the other way just as fast if not worse he's terrifying he made a pass in his own end in a 2-2 hockey game i know the exact he collected the puck along the boards

clearly has room to skate it out and throws an absolute grenade into the skates of i think it was luke shen like and just to a non-puck handling defenseman rifled one in there turns into a turnover that's probably the moment of the playoffs where i went the most just please don't ever show your face here again this is so inexcusable for him to make that play you're right the only thing is borny if i was going to say when did the leafs feel the most threatening tonight is when he has the power with some space point yeah oh and he made that little slip to nylander before nylander completely gooned up a two-on-one tried to pass it to tavara's he made the the goal fake was awesome yeah did some great stuff with it he also they won the drawback to him twice where he completely

just like i don't know what exploded on him and all of a sudden he's chasing the play it's like are you amazing or awful i have no clue after what you nailed it when we were chat in our group chat he is his nickname should be mr high event because it's happening when he's out there boys it's happening dance you just don't know who dude it's like at the top of the league it's the guys you have to watch when they're on the ice mcdavid won and then it's like gustavson is two slots in right behind McDavid. And like something crazy is about hockey fans settling. You're about to see something happen.

The other issue I have with the 11 on seven, and I'll just admit is, and I, this one was, is hard to quantify, but this is sort of where the tinkering gets to a point where you go, you know what? It would be nice to maybe have a little bit of reliability amongst your

lines. It just, you're searching for it. It felt desperate all night. And to me anyways, this is just my perspective early on in the game, especially they reminded me of a football team that scripts their first series on offense where like they,

the coach goes in and says, we've got all the plays scripted and they go down they score a touchdown and then the rest of the defense makes the adjustments and then the coach sits down and goes okay like now we're gonna let our quarterback call plays but your quarterback is jared goff and all of a sudden he starts throwing interceptions and it just felt like the leafs never really had anything outside of the camp lafferty pairing that was just consistent throughout that game. And I had to at least think about and bring this up of how much of an effect

do you guys think this was of just constantly having things in a blender and guys sitting there on the bench going like, I wonder what that bench looks like during a game like this, where like you just like seven minutes. Yeah. You're just sitting there staring at Keith going like, like what he's like, now,

now you, now now you now you know you it just it felt all over the place it felt how many times was like an actual same line out there for maybe three rotations it was nuts it was chaotic that's the best way i can experience can say it it's just it felt really like you said it's just a lack of consistency missed 23 though sam how quickly it's nice not a chari orion o'reilly line miss is missing the one piece to give it a spark yeah that like i you know looking back on takes from this week that all of a sudden became incredibly relevant but kipper talking about how like they're way too dependent on this guy and i was like oh what are you talking about

that's like the first game he's out i'm like oh my god he is by far the best left winger like he's the only guy on the left he's the only guy on the left side that has any offensive impact like bunting sure but like bunting can't carry the puck bunting can't do the dangles that he does can't work on the half wall like guys can like it's just like wow he is incredibly important to this. Spin zone for him being out is he's not getting the loser juice on him. Like, he doesn't have to be in that dressing room for all the loser ooze. That is just, you know. Build around him. That's clearly.

It's just very clear that he's a big part of this future. And at least he doesn't have to sit around there with those guys. Do their probably little swarmy press conference where they go, we thought we did some good things tonight, but we didn't get the bounces, you know, just but have to be better and then roll it in the next game. Good job, fellas. No.

Austin Matthews. Go ahead. It's do or die. Yeah. That's from Luke Fox on Twitter. It's do or die. That was a chat GPT, Austin Matthews. Type in the style of choker.

Thank you. The do or die is pretty extreme considering. It would be a tough spot if they come back and win the cup this year. Good. Let it be the one that lit a fire under their ass. Yeah. The thing about them winning four in a row at this point is like what what's the thing right now that you're seeing from them that you just believe is going to be their next game i don't think florida's very good that's yeah that's but that even makes it more

infuriating is that i don't watch this panthers team ever and go wow these guys are just incredible they just have some tenacious forwards that are pretty nasty on the forecheck. And then they just seem to have what Toronto hasn't, which is guys who are finishing some big, like Verhage, where they go, look at all these game-winning goals he has. It seems to translate to the playoffs.

Yeah. Yeah. They're content to kind of wait for their chances, then go, go, go. You know, they do have some urgency, for sure. But I didn't feel like Bobrovsky was really pressed tonight. Can you guys think of, like like three awesome Bobrovsky saves? No.

No, this is their worst game of the series by a good distance. Yeah. I just, there was pretty much a real nothing. Anyway, God, I like, I can look through my rapid fire, but I really don't want to just crush more guys. Cause I'm just pretty much mad about everything. God, I will say say though that defensively i really did like a lot of what they were doing tonight like some depth guys just winning some puck battles in their own end closing some gaps well again they got everything from

everyone in the lineup except for the most important four guys sorry of the game sir we could have been five minutes and done just what you just said. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, that's what this should have been tonight is, hey, does anybody want to say anything nice about the top four guys? And Bourne would have been like. You got to work through it.

You got to work through it. This is cathartic for people. I feel way better. I feel way worse. Like, it's just now the therapy thing is over where you get to yell and be upset and now you just got to go sit in it and that's the worst part is sitting in at least three days till the next game that's good i look forward to three radio shows this week that's great i'm really looking forward to succession i'm gonna go watch succession with

ally which i'm gonna just turn my phone off and just enjoy that so looking forward to that i'll be staring through succession tonight straight up just thinking about what born said where there's three straight radio shows of the content so it's basically like you have tomorrow you've got to do tomorrow you know some what the hell happened and what moves forward and then you try to spin some stuff moving like i don't you guys know me i'm pretty much a narrative this is what i make my bones in is i can craft narratives i can make a story i'm staring forward the next couple of days going i might just be doing some blue jays lebr. Hey, guess what? Jays are back on track, baby. We're back. Jays three in a

row after getting swept. We're back. Yeah, boy. Go Blue Jays. I just took a peek at my phone and it is a... It's a lot of messages that are not getting text back tonight. I can just tell you that. Tonight is not the night for the replies.

Tonight is basically just mute and goodbye um okay so anything else from this game are we gonna wrap up oh god wrap it up i'm really sore i'm really sorry for all you wonderfully fans that trekked to florida i got just sick for you you know you just have to go back to your hotel room or you can go to a nice beach bar and cry in your mai tai because that's just i actually feel the least sorry for them which is you know what though i'm with born where i like i'm so unimpressed by florida that if you were ever and this would be the most perfect like i've already this is the the pain of being you know someone who cares about the leafs is i've already finished the show going like you know what now everyone's gonna say anything bad about them and they're gonna come out like a house on fire they're gonna win one road game then they're back at home what's the odds they're gonna lose

every home game to florida none so then it's three two and now you're on the road with all the pressure on florida like i've already i've already written the script in my head fellas like i'm ready to believe again already down three. Sam's not purchasing your script. He's not buying tickets. I'm a, I'm a movie. Yeah. If I'm like a head of a movie, I'm like,

yeah, that's getting thrown out. I'll be like, yeah, it's a decent script. I'll read that one later. Fantastical. Yeah.

Even with the writers on strike, Sam's like, I'm not accepting this script. All right. We can find someone else again, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at JD bunkers at Sammy McKee at JT born, uh,

reach out anytime, please, uh, hit the thumbs up on the YouTube channel because it does help us. Same with subscribing to the podcast. We don't know how many episodes it'll be, but it'll be back next year. We hope,

uh, we hope that along with all the firings, it doesn't include us. It's just everybody. They do a clean sweep through media. They're like you know what this is actually bad enough where we've just decided to shut i think it might be time for me to move to a hut anyway and never watch this team again it's hot time well i made

a promise to go live in the woods for the rest of my life if the leafs blew 3-1 to montreal and i already lied about that so i can't make the hut promise again okay i already i already made the hut in the woods promise. And again, you can share it. Don't be a vulture. We appreciate it always. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.

And yes, I'm sorry, Leafs fans that you have to keep enduring this. My God. We'll see you next time.