Real Kyper & Bourne - Buds on the Brink

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee open with last night's Leafs Game 3 loss going down 3-0 to the Panthers, a disappointing showing from the core, the Leafs lacking toughness, Sheldon Keefe's strategy, potential changes for the Game 4 lineup, Samsonov's injury, Jo Woll's performance and if he should stick in net for Game 4. They are joined by Craig Simpson (47:00), who shares his thoughts on how the series has turned around for the core four, Florida's momentum, the hole left in Matthew Knies' absence, what to expect in Game 4 and if a win on Wednesday can change the offseason direction. Later, NHL Network's Brian Lawton breaks down how the core can get it going, his expectations for the Leafs' offseason and if taking a few games in the series can save jobs (1:07:16). The guys close with a chat about potential moves this offseason, problems with the Leafs' deadline acquisitions and a look at the playoff action around the league.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. The Toronto Maple Leafs are pushed to the brink of elimination in the Eastern Conference semifinal against the Florida Panthers. Sam Reinhardt scores the overtime winner. And if you believe in misery loves company, sit back for the next two hours. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Derek Brandeo, David Sissboomba, and yes, Sammy McKee.

Try to figure this all out. Yeah. In under two hours. I don't think it can be done, JB. The people who are here with us today, I love you the very most you are you are my favorite listeners to our program because this is some seriously messed up just use my language sorry to come in here the day after that and want to be subjected to talk

about that that was a mess much like my language i apologize we've got uh craig simpson's gonna join us in about 50 minutes he was there he saw it live be great to get his his thoughts in the second hour brian lotten former nhl player agent general manager he's done it all he's gonna be on board as well and listen there's many different ways that we can go about this. Maybe one of the worst things for the Leafs right now is the extra day off as they don't play again game four until Wednesday. In all probability, that will give every media outlet a chance to go an extra day on the big picture here.

And I'm sure we're going to do that at some point today. I don't necessarily think it's, I don't want to focus on as if the body's already buried. Not yet. No. I don't. I don't want to dismiss why they're down three nothing yeah we can get certainly into what we saw on the weekend moving forward and yes how it can kind of snowball into maybe a few what-ifs but we we know we know the media is just gonna pick at the carcass yeah already yeah i i'm not sure i want to do that i

don't know how you feel well it's really hard it's really hard because the thing that has made the previous seasons die the things that have ended their seasons are so visible and here again that it's not it's hard not to connect the dots to the big picture um i'm with you this it's not over and that's not to say kip and i are saying that we think they're going to come back and win no no no no no you're absolutely right on that but and we'll welcome in sammy mckee because i couldn't even i walked in the room today and all i could see is him shaking his head i didn't even want to say a word to him probably until we went on air uh we're gonna get his thoughts in momentarily here for sure but i don't know how you want to go about this sammy are you ready to just give it to

them right now because there's a part of me that says to to jb's point is that i don't believe that they can come back in this series based on what i've seen them play are you tough enough to play this game but is there a chance that they could at least save some face by bringing a game five home? I don't think anyone cares. If they do. That's delaying the inevitable, fellas. Where are you at, McKee?

I'm in a bad place. I'm in a bad, bad place, boys. It's a tough pill to swallow. The way that last night went. If they go down fighting, it's tough pill to swallow like the way that last night went you know if they go down fighting it's a really you know highly competitive game where their stars are brilliant and you lose the game you can you can sleep at night but with the way that they all those guys looked in what basically was a game seven right like if you look at the what the stakes of that game you lose that

game four teams in the history of the league have come back from down 3-0. It's basically a do-or-die game, and the Stars acted like it was a do-or-die game over this era. It's just I am sick for my Leaf fan brethren that I've been on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok and just the beating that me and my Leaf fans are taking today is, you know, people, they're dancing on graves already. Like you said, it's not over. We can do that charade if you want. It's not over.

Sure. But it just sucks. And this Leaf fan base have been through so much and they're just taking another one. Yeah. Another beating. i got stopped at costco today fellas i know big star here and guys like hey sammy love real kiprem born love leaf's talk says i've been the staunch defender of dubas and the core four and i love these guys he's like i i won't watch game four i don't know if i'll watch another game if they're back here

next year people are pissed off yes The messages I'm getting, everything. It's a fever pitch. It's worse than I've ever seen it. I agree with that. I haven't. So everything that you were feeling eight days ago has just completely been flushed down the toilet. Evaporated.

Like, I can't believe. It's a week. A week ago today, we were doing they won the first series in 20 years show it was one week ago today and the leafs are in a 3-0 hole to a team that they shouldn't be in a 3-0 i can't help but wonder about the what-ifs of the mentality between playing the florida panthers and playing the Boston Bruins. And that's what I keep thinking about. The underdog versus...

If they would have been down 3-0 against Boston, it's almost as if jobs could have been saved, knowing that you lost to the best team in the world you lost to the best team on in the history of the nhl regular season but it's a relevant detail right you got the clear path the clear path the easier path uh in theory and you know typical to this team that when it looks like it can or should be easy it's you know it's the david hairsting all over again don't you like i you know we can walk down that hypothetical path but it's hard to not draw the parallel and this being a microcosm of this entire era of leaves hockey where okay if it's supposed to be easy i i have

i have no problem having that conversation but i I really want to now just get into your eyes and what you saw Sunday. And where did we go from Thursday to Sunday? And what were you expecting and what didn't you get? And give me some nuts and bolts on on sunday's loss well there was just zero offense compared to that thursday that thursday game was a track meet i thought that toronto made the adjustment in game three there to deal with florida's d pinching down the walls right they stretched everything banked it off the glass stretch passes led to odd man rushes early um but it looked really disconnected offensively no one to the inside no hockey played inside the middle house area at all

everything perimeter and because of that no second chances no screens no offense you know no you know just just a weak offensive effort and we're now five games in a row where this team has scored two goals um and the offense has just dried up so to me that's it a decent first 10 minutes and when you get a goal from lafferty on a on a great feed by camp and there wasn't a part of you feeling good about the start and the one nothing lead and yeah for sure and no no follow-up no follow-up at all like even you know matthews ring was on off the crossbar 12 seconds into the game um you know highlighted the game offensively for that line uh who was filled in absolutely filled in um marner was on the ice for 18 chances against and four four for his line uh matthew's just a little bit better

like they just got crushed so yeah tough to feel good about it all right we're gonna get to sheldon keith we got a good half a dozen comments from him uh what is the biggest thing right now for you with the shutdown of the core four? I think Mitch Marner's offensive performance. Just a, you know, since game two, you know, hasn't scored, hasn't created, hasn't been the same guy. You know, we talked about him all season long as the guy who, you know, made lines better. Oh, no, he's the engine. I'm the first guy to say he's the engine. And when engine doesn't go the whole team shuts down yeah yeah and so that that to me is

a big story in particular for me you know he controls the play so well like he changes to his speed he's able to adapt within it and in this it's like punting pucks out of the D zone, dumping pucks in. He has no room, right? None, yeah. He has no room out there to do what he wants to do. It closed down on him. So you're giving Florida credit for that? Ton of credit.

Yeah. Ton of credit. They targeted the right guy. And the one thing that's abundantly clear for me is at the end of the day he still weighs 160 pounds he's not pushing anybody right around he has to do it with his hands and he has to do it with his uh i uh high iq but right now nobody on that roster can create space physically and that's an issue big issue right now because florida can yeah you know i think that's one of the critiques we talked on this show many times about do can you tape grit on to a core that's not gritty you know can you

add achari and ryan o'reilly and Shenn and whoever else, Lafferty and these guys, and suddenly have a team that has that, has the jam, when the core of the guys who plays 24 minutes a night, 22 minutes a night, and they're the ones in the biggest moment, if they don't have the jam, can you tape it to them? And I think the answer is you can't. The one thing for me is that don't ask them to be something that they're not. And to now all of a sudden for Sheldon to turn around to Matthews and Marner and Tavares to say, you know say you need to be grittier.

If you didn't ask them to be grittier in November, if you didn't ask them to be grittier in February, then why are you asking them to be grittier in May? See, it's not even grit though for me, Kip. I see your point. This is a different

type of hockey. No, no, no. It is 180 degree turn right okay but look at some of the guys you know you look at a guy who's had success in the playoffs undersized pat kane you know you find a way to skate get away from the traffic like just you find ways to deal with it no one's asking pat kane to punch you in the mouth when he's winning cons might throw but but you had boland you had other guys that did that for you so kane can go find those lanes he didn't physically make it on his own is your point here that matthews doesn't do that for marner is that no no my point is nobody does it for anybody okay nobody give me one guy in the lineup that can physically make room for a teammate give me one i assume you don't want me

to say 34 uh yeah i mean lower down the lineup whether it's atari or whether it's none of those guys are one of the most talented players in the world yeah has anyone ever taught austin matthews how to body check anybody in growing up in Arizona or in the Swiss League, go watch him forecheck. And then go watch four or five other guys on Florida, and you tell me they forecheck the same way. I'm watching two different leagues, two different players. Austin doesn't know how to body check.

He goes in there. He probably pulls up probably about 30%, and then he kind of sticks his ass in there how to body check. He goes in there. He probably pulls up probably about 30%. And then he kind of sticks his ass in there hoping to clip somebody. Sorry. Okay, go watch the physical presence of Barkov. And go watch the physical presence of Austin Matthews. And you are seeing two different leagues. I actually had that clipped for me to look into.

Just stopping skating on the forecheck as a theme with matthews too no no how about the whole team give me one guy give me one power forward right now on the toronto maple leafs one i mean you know who their forwards are you don't need me to give names no but they don't have one yeah they don't have one. Yeah. They don't have one. And then you traded at March and you asked Lafferty and Achari. Nice players. And yes, but like add-ons, depth add-ons at the third or fourth line, your core, not one physical specimen to go out there and make room for themselves or their teammates.

They all want to be their teammates they all want to be skilled they all want to toe drag Tavares can't make room for himself for his line mates Marner can't Matthews can't and Willie can't so what's left yeah I mean it's you know the criticism of this team is that you know the the main guys do not have that element to them and so you get to a point where you know you talk about people dialing out looking at big issue big picture with this team the bet has been that they will find a way through you know like phil kessel wins a stanley cup looks great in the playoffs joe jay bowmeister never makes the playoffs and looks great they get in situations where they can. The bet was these guys would too.

And so when it doesn't work and it conclusively has not worked, the experiment ends. And I think that's how we arrive at what now, which is what today is. Unless you believe they're coming back, which no one does. There's nothing that suggests that uh they're gonna go out there and and run anybody over in this series joe wall becomes the world's greatest goalie here

but i i just when when now all of a sudden you ask these guys to do something that they haven't been asked to do probably in five years what's your point it's not who they are you never say to john tavara has become a four checking power forward like it's not that's you can, it's not who they are. You would never say that John Tavares has become a four-checking power forward. Like, it's not. You can't. It's like asking me to become LeBron James. Can't. That's always been what we've talked about with this core of guys.

Well, it comes back to that four-letter word starting with S. Soft. 100%. And so many times throughout that game last night, I'm watching it. I'm watching the four guys. That's exactly the word I'm thinking.

They don't go in with purpose. And they're nice guys. Just how we play, soft. Super nice guys. They're nice guys. Yeah. They don't have an ounce of confrontation in them. Not an ounce.

In my article today, Kip, I talked about something where, you know, Austin Matthews, you put him in the core of elite guys in the NHL, captains, centermen, heart trophy, with who? Nathan McKinnon, who we've seen throw a helmet at someone and freak out at the ref. Connor McDavid, who's freaking out at his teammates when he can't get a pass.dney crosby who's fight claude drew to the death to get a puck like this elite elite group that's won cups has this sort of next it's freakish to me the level of passion but i don't think you can sit here and say matthews has that he doesn't that's a big box that he

doesn't check yeah it's for me it's the only box he doesn't check That's a big box that he doesn't check. Yeah. For me, it's the only box he doesn't check. It's unquestionable. And you're right. He does everything well, quietly, nothing loudly. He has all the talent in the world. He is an incredible world-class player.

But when it comes to this time of year. It's not what it's all about here. And now he's relying on it. And it ain't there. And he's got nothing else to offer. Can't run anybody over. He can't even grab a teammate. Let's just do one experiment here, okay?

Take Austin Matthews out, put Nathan McKinnon in the Leaf lineup, and you tell me right now the feel that that room would have. Nathan McKinnon would grab two or three guys by the collar does anybody have that ability tavaris marner anybody grab anybody and demand more because they can't look themselves in the mirror they don't have the clout to the ability they don't yeah they don't and that's a big deal. The heartbreaking thing about last night is, I thought the bottom six and a lot of the D core was excellent. Everything they built around those guys has actually been very good.

Where? Around the core. The depth guy, Lafferty and Camford, their best forwards last night. Lafferty was a healthy scratch a few days ago. I know. They were saying the depth they built is good. He's good depth, Kip. He's not a AHL forward. The D were pretty good last night. They gave up six shots they built is good. He's good depth, Kip. He's not a AHL forward.

The D were pretty good last night. They gave up six shots in the first period, 20-some in the game. Go watch TJ Brody on the game-winning goal. I was embarrassed for him. You know what? I watched that, too, and I watched some criticism of that. I didn't think it was terrible. He had two cracks to confront Sam Reinhardt.

Yeah. Okay. He backed off the first time. Yeah. The second time, eliminate him. Yeah, I agree there. Okay. Finish him.

Take him out of the play. He's done. For sure. You know what you're getting away with at that point? Everything. Everything. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Don't let him pass by you and then chase him around the net when you've given him four feet. Yeah. Okay. Don't let him pass by you and then chase him around the net when you've given him four feet. Yeah. That's one-on-one defense. Come on. You make 5 million bucks. You're supposed to be now my number one defenseman because you're playing 25 minutes this night

and you give up that. That's not depth. Yeah. No, that's not depth yeah that's not no that's not depth that's their top shutdown pair yeah that's you know that's the guy who played the most and he was i was just i thought he was pretty good last night i thought the decor in general was not a problem i didn't think florida had a ton you know they had some mccabe how do you like declare behind you how on a penalty kill he's the fastest guy on the ice. How do you allow him to get by you on a breakaway? Guys get chances every game.

I'm just saying, yes, it's brutal. It's brutal, it's brutal. But I'm saying to me... Those are the big ones that cost you. They did cost you, 100%. And this is not to say that they have some awesome decor. I just think it was fine. I don't think they were the problem last night.

The problem's not scoring enough. You had two. They get two, five games in a row. They can't get a win in regulation because they can't get to three. You know, Florida's one of the better offensive teams in the league. I didn't think the D was that bad. They've played nine playoffs. Can they have one regulation win?

Yeah. All right. Let's go to Sheldon Keefe on the Stars' inability to produce. Well, credit to Florida. They defended well. Obviously, Austin rips one off the crossbar just seconds into the game. Could have changed that narrative. But, yeah, Florida played hard today.

They defended the middle of the ice well. There wasn't a lot of opportunities for our guys there, you know, in the first five minutes. First five minutes, I think we had three or four odd man rushes out of that. And like the way we started the game that way, obviously got Florida's attention on it, and they plugged it up pretty good after that. So, yeah, not a 5-0-5, not a lot of space, no power plays in the game.

Makes it tough on those guys you guys okay with sheldon's post-game comments uh i'm not sure he needed to go all uh uh uh rick uh bone a bonus in winnipeg yeah do you think that was rick bonus or no no no no no i'm saying like or do you should he have maybe yeah the series isn't over for him guys i think he's incentivized to keep everyone you know not start now's not the time you know to suddenly start ripping guys apart i think after game four could be interesting if it ends it's too late then i i don't want to hear it i would have the one thing about rick i would have said that if you're i would have had more respect for that if if you're trying to one last grasp

to get to the the core guys it would have been ripping them after game four to me is completely a waste of breath it's just you putting on a show for the outside world for sure so where are we at with keith here fellas because he's a big part of this conversation too for sure you know i i thought last night you know the adjustments they made were fine i you could have some criticisms i think about you know usage of guys what do you think of the lines right 11 and 7 quick to shuffle i know you haven't been as big on that jordan will play seven minutes last night or something 7 30 i'm not sure there's any point in dressing seven if you're not going to use the seventh guy it feels like it was yesterday that we sat here and i think we started we started okay, there's 18 games in the regular season.

Now you want to just, okay, maybe experiment a little bit with your lines and you want to feel this out. And of course, Ryan O'Reilly gets hurt, which threw a curve ball in, but then it started closing up and you're like, okay, enough with the juggling and the 11 and seven. And where does everybody go? And who ultimately Marner matthews marner tavaris and here we are in game three and it feels exactly the same way that it never got settled in yeah they never got deep pairs that they were comfortable with and getting redundant

and i think that's that's a criticism to me a worthwhile criticism of of kyle dubas that they didn't they tried every iteration of this lineup and it never felt like the puzzle pieces fit right like you were constantly making adjustments to the puzzle and so if you don't get all the puzzle pieces you know i don't know how much you can blame the coach gonna be interesting to see what they go with next game so i thought the same thing, by the way, about Marner and finding someone to create room for him. I'd play him with Ryan O'Reilly that next game as a center. He also spoke today via Zoom, and he talked about his core four,

which is kind of relevant to this conversation, so maybe we could tend to play it here. Right now, the focus has got to be on doing what we can control and focus on the things that really, truly matter in terms of the process and the details of the game. I think the moment anybody gets bogged down with the fact that they haven't scored or they start to think about things outside of the little details and habits and their competitiveness and work ethic and all those things that,

you know, give you a chance to succeed and put you in a position to score. The moment you get distracted and focus on those things, now you're really, really working uphill. So that would really be it is just give our guys the freedom to free their minds and just focus on the things that they can control. So again, give them the freedom. Like it's not, he's not using the whip here.

And I don't know if there's ever going to be another time to do it. It's almost as if, I don't know, if we go back to that start and he came out, he challenged them early, he backpedaled, and he's never really wanted to go down that path again. Yeah, since then he hasn't really. Remember that? Yeah, for sure. The criticism at the time, I think, was too soon to do it or something like that,

if I recall our show. But it would have been helpful to have it a couple times throughout the season. It definitely feels now it's inauthentic for him to do that because that's not who he is, you know, to come out here and make a scene. But, I mean, when else would it be appropriate no it just it should have happened previously several times when we had their moments yeah for sure but there's no more i i'm you know the more that i think about this now is the time like if you're gonna you've used one bullet the entire year right and you used it in what what was that, after? Game eight. Game eight. And you haven't gone back to that at all.

Right now would be the time to maybe try a different way to light a fire under their butts. Fair point, Sam. Unless he knows it won't work. Is that why he won't go down there? Because they really have, since moving lula he knows exit interviews are coming sorry with with the decision to move lula amarello out who was nothing but tough love into kyle that's where we're gonna we're gonna build on positive we're gonna build on positive we're going to build on building these guys up not stripping them down

big substitute teacher vibes on that yeah am i does that make sense yeah that's probably where this vibe has ended up now here in game three is that i don't know the best way I've described it over the year is Kyle's a warm blanket guy for these guys. You know, word that comes up outside of this show, you know, sometimes is it's stuff around, you know,

jam and competitiveness, but also choking like Greg Norman type stuff. Like, you know, some people elevate in the biggest moments, whether it is, you know, the way dry saddles playing or Justin Like, you know, some people elevate in the biggest moments, whether it is, you know, the way dry saddles playing or Justin Williams,

you know, the pressure in Toronto is huge. Could there be to you an element of that with this team that the pressure is what it is, not the lack of physical play, but just, you know, it is when you're playing golf and you get nervy and not for me.

No, not for me. Like, I think I, you don't, I think it's just that they didn't get the winning reps early in their tenure ever and it just has snowballed i i look like a at a guy like mitch marner and i know ohhl chl isn't nhl but that is that's big league stuff we're talking about the best 18 year olds in the world yeah

that guy had no problem uh winning chl player of the year he had no problem captaining uh a historic franchise in the london knights he had no problem winning a memorial cup so he he's done it at different levels so where is it now that he's freezing up or choking in the big moment i don't buy that for one second for me it's just not built right to win in the playoffs yeah that's where it lies ironically didn't he have matthew kachuk on his line matthew kachuk and uh christian devora christian devora one of the best in history by the way yeah junior a lines i think we do kind of have to have the the conversation where it tightens up for him kipper because it's it hasn't been pretty a lot of the big games with marner and i know like there's there's definitely validity to

the big guys that having somebody to create space for them here. But all of them now at the same time, all coincidentally, are choking? Yeah. Or is it just they don't have the style of play to win this time of year? They've missed for six years of their development, they've missed the one thing that you need the most around this time of year. And that is

a physical element to their game. They skipped that for six years. They went by on skill, skill, skill, skill. Austin's in a corner, he's fishing for pucks. Barkov's in the corner he's eliminating you there's no room out there for them for their style of play they only want to

win one way and that's over skilling another team oh outscoring them it's funny because like the in tampa like the whole narrative was that they had got over that right that there was more net front stuff they were able to be there. Florida has the butchers. Tampa might have been kind of bad. I don't know. It was awful. Tampa was just primed.

They were just primed. Everybody knew it since January that if Vasilevsky doesn't save their ass, if he's not superhuman again they were going to go down for sure i like i know you don't want to necessarily do the revisionist history but it's hard i think it's super revisionist history to devalue that win you look at any team who wins a playoff series the other team's going to have weak spots like that's you don't play a team who plays awesome and win that's they weren't necessarily look bad they weren't necessarily the better team though they didn't outplay tampa no but they also didn't get outplayed by tampa it was a pretty close series

and they got some bounces you know i i think it's revisionist to be like yeah that series now doesn't count i think they're playing like dogs in this year they didn't play well no they didn't play well but they played better than the other team how many playoff games series nine now yes how many regulation wins have we done this one. I know. Okay, I got it. One 60-minute game. I got it. I got it. I think it's pointless to say that that series somehow doesn't count. Like, Tampa Bay didn't have Stamkos and Point and Hedman.

Like, they were suddenly terrible. It's a pointless argument, this one. This one's stupid. This team does not have the guys to win four rounds against teams that play a variety of styles, that have butchers in front is a totally valid point physical yeah right and tampa wasn't even close to the physicality we're seeing out of florida right now which surprises me florida seems to love it love it they're just younger yeah hungrier they're hungry they are hungry they're just at least

sam bennett is probably the most important player in this series i know kachuk's the answer but sam bennett is a missile and i think he's got people's heads up like is this guy coming next he's put he put david camp you know ran him to start the series he is mowing guys over out there you know super effective the one thing that's abundantly clear too is it's scary to say that but they they missed matthew nyes matthew nyes made room for himself totally agree i totally agree and matthew nyes and i know we had this conversation last week and i said too important too soon be careful what you know, don't push too hard here. Don't create an ask that's just a little overwhelming.

And the guy got eaten up behind the net by the missile you're talking about. But he became in a week their most important left winger. They don't have anybody to create room. At least he did create room when he was out there. God, Yarncroft scored 20 goals this year. What do you do with him now? He's got three more years of Yarncroft. He can't do a lick out there, boys.

He's been terrible. Flat out. Honestly, I don't think he should play next. He shouldn't play next game. You can't have a player in your team who does nothing. Kampf and Lafferty do something. You can't have a guy do nothing. What would you say you do here?

I just. Just a few of those guys. Sure. I don't see anything out of Kerfoot. Zero. If you put him on the table eventually it'll work it's way through the table zero presence

and you can't have passengers this time of year mid what do you do we're going to have a whole off season and today's probably not the day you're right I'll give you credit there but there are big questions about what to do what do we do now We're going to have a whole offseason, and today's probably not the day. You're right. I'll give you credit there.

But there are big questions about what to do if you believe in people with no trade clause. What did we see on the Samsonov play that knocked him out of the game? You go. Bad turnover. A tree of a man skating a million miles an hour blew his shoulder through his hip. Get the puck in deep. Yeah hip get the puck in deep yeah get the puck in deep it comes down to like if we don't want to talk about the the fear of physicality that's a spot where a power forward puts the puck in deep gets it in deep goes in puts

a lick on the defenseman gets the puck along the boards that's flor Florida's game plan. For sure. It's just drove me insane. You're number one goalies out of the game midway through it because your inability to get the puck in deep. You turn the puck over and God, that looked like it hurt. That would be my other thought. And it's Luke Shen.

Love Luke Shen. Last night wasn't his finest night. Guess why? Asking too much of him? 20 minutes? love Luke Shen love everything about him guess why asking too much of him 20 minutes it's ridiculous and now he's caught he's flat footed he's chasing now

and he's too slow to catch up and he bulls over Samsonov and where did the ask come from management coaching to say, hey, Luke, now we need you to play 20 minutes. Now we're turning you into a top four defenseman. He's just done it with Quinn Hughes.

He's done it. He played with Victor Hedman at times. Like he's shown that he can kind of spot save these guys you know he can play there for a bit too slow yeah he's too slow it's too slow to play meaningful long like 20 minutes in a second round playoff series a big ask

for sure yeah he been unbelievable nine games I give him a 99 out of 100 last game wasn't it for did any of you thought when you first saw Samsonov go in Unbelievable. Nine games. I give him a 99 out of 100. Last game wasn't it for me. Did any of you thought when you first saw Samsonov go in that he's going to shake it off and finish this game? No. Yeah, I did.

Just because he's been hurt after every single whistle. The way that it pulled his shoulder back, I thought he separated his shoulder or something. That looked incredibly painful. I knew he wasn't coming back. He was slumped immediately. I had no belief his shoulder or something. That looked incredibly painful. I knew he wasn't coming back. He was slumped immediately. I had no belief in him coming back. Joe Wall watched it and immediately grabbed the bio steel and was like, here we go. I got to tell you,

I didn't feel any different with Joe Wall in that than I did with Samsonov. None. Makes two. I actually preferred it. Yeah. We're all in agreement. Samsonov had some brilliant gains to the Leafs in this playoff. He stays in the blue area.

Did not. Did not. Did not. And actually held on to a lot of shots, less rebounds. Like, I thought it was a great showing from him. If you want to say something positive, which no one wants to hear today. I don't know. Maybe we'll find out after Wednesday. Maybe we don't and this thing extends.

I think they win and they lose in six. I do. But, like, this whole thing with samsonov throughout the year uh making it abundantly clear that something's not quite right either he gets up slow or he favored something how many times did we see this during the season? Yeah. At least 20. Sorry? At least 20. Okay. Like at least once every other start.

You don't find that weird at all? Yeah. Strange. Some people are divers, for lack of a better word. You know? I played with guys that probably went out of their way to make it abundantly clear that something's not right. Yeah. I'm playing this well and I'm hurt.

In the event that, in the event that you either play poorly or maybe it gets a little too hot in the kitchen. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, I imagine he's hurt. I imagine it's legit.

Yeah. But I just found it strange all year that he's nursing something. Something's not right. Yet he continues to play. And sometimes you see it and sometimes you don't. I see. I see. I just found that weird.

Not saying, just saying. If he's available for next game, i still think you got to go with wool like you just have to try to yeah turn the tide here you're down three zep new start series it's time i it was not doing anything's unimpressive with wall even the way he spoke about hey exhibition game playoff game i still prepare the same i i love that they got something in him i think so yeah being how about really great to watch the first shot he's faced in both his playoff games happened to be a uh a b-way sorry someone else said b-way not me i could barely get through that but a breakaway like thanks for helping the kid out like you think okay we got a young kid in there

he's nervous we're gonna protect him yeah and here comes the fastest guy in the league and then a few minutes later uh take one in the head for us yeah knock your mask off while you're at it hot start that told me so much about them like you you get a goalie in there and like you said kid first well not first playoff action he played half of the third period in game one of the first series, but you just have Duclair, who puts a beautiful move on him. Yeah, great move. That speed.

Going that speed. That speed, forehand, backhand, forehand, but it's just. All right, let's go to Sheldon Keefe on Samsonov and Joel Wall. Sammy's feeling better today, so that's positive. He is going to get some tests and MRIs and stuff done today just to have a better idea of what's happening with him. Obviously, we do have some time on his side here both today and tomorrow, so we'll use that time and get a better sense of where he's at. In terms of Joe, I've got great confidence in him.

I wasn't famous when he went in the net yesterday, and he backed that up with his performance. So I think our group has got a lot of confidence in him. And more importantly, he looked really confident and comfortable and didn't look like the moment or the situation was anything too big for him. So, you know, for that, you know, if we need to go back with him, then I think we've got lots of confidence and belief in his ability. Sounds like a guy that's starting on Wednesday night to me.

Yeah, also sounds like samsonov is fine fine you don't go to the media and say he's feeling better today like no one who's severely sincerely hurt gets the review of unless he doesn't want to play samson yeah yeah it's possible right right unless he says hey i can't go i just i think it's crazy that matt murray is cleared and healthy and available and none of us have said should murray go i saw uh i think it was david alder that tweeted it but he was like i just saw uh shell sorry i just saw kyle dubas go over to matt murray and give him a tap and tell him that he's the e-bug i'm like matt murray is a lot where's memories there and he's fine he's just not even an option to dress well didn't didn't uh kyle when he saw him go down

walk over to the press box and say yeah is that what you just mentioned yeah yeah it's crazy i didn't even know he was an option so i mean what comes of this in the off season when they can't they don't even want the guy as their second goalie healthy in playoffs. Can't be a part of the club next year. Unfortunately, it's crazy. Any who can't. So did I hear you correctly? You think Lisa will win the next two games?

Yeah, I did say that. All right. So see, to me, to me, that I do believe that saves a little bit of face. I'm curious.

Way. I think this is the exact spot where they give you the, here's what we can do game. Then you go home. I just think physically they cannot overcome it. I mean, guys, if this Toronto team plays this Florida team 100 times, they're not losing 100 games. And don't say yes, they are, because that's dumb.

I wasn't going to say that. Nobody's going to play that hard over a hundred games. But I think, well, listen, they lose an OT 2-2 on the road in a game that's probably a coin toss if you strip back everything you know about this core. But it is. It's essentially, Keith said as much in his comments, too. I just think they get one.

And if they, by the way, if they don't, if they go out and just quit, just quit and lose like 5-0 or something or 5-1, whatever next game. Yeah, I don't see that happening. Who can come back? Who of their important players could you bring back? That won't happen. No. That won't happen.

You guys, you really believe that, eh? Yeah, I do. I think it's going one of two ways. They win or they get absolutely felt. I think we're on big time quit watch here, fellas. No, I think they're just good enough to lose. They're just going to sneak through on? No, they're good enough to lose 2-1 or 3-2 or 4-3.

Or lose in overtime. I just think physically they've just been manhandled. My bet is that the final score is not within two and a half goals. One way or the other, I don't know which way. I thought even, like I got to tell you, even if they won that game last night, I'd have a similar tone today. I just don't think they can match up against Florida's physicality and forecheck and they can't break the puck.

Like I really would have had a very similar feel today. Here comes Zach Dalkey and Josh Murray. I mean, they got holes. Yes, and you're going by the fact that they were, what, the 21st best defensive team in the league. Yeah, they give up chances. Did you watch game two? Yeah.

Did you watch it? It was like Toronto had that Mario Kart arrow thing every time they touched the puck in the neutral zone. It was super boost. And they didn't score. And Brobski has strung together the three best games of his career. In the history of goaltending. He wasn't very good.

He didn't need to be good last night. Did he make a save last night? The two games that mattered, those were the two best games he's ever had. Yeah, for sure. Like, legitimately. By save, what, say it for me, Borny? Goals saved above expected what that was legitimately his best two game stretch of his life awesome cool cool cool cool uh okay uh you guys want some playoff picks we do a week ago today the toronto maple leafs

were the stanley cup favorite at plus 325. One week ago today. Now, they're plus 2200 to win the Stanley Cup. They're by far the worst odds to win the Stanley Cup. So just shows you what a difference a week can make, fellas. I really hope there's no one listening to this show that bet the least to win the cup at plus 325 yesterday, last year, because that would not have been good. Would have been a bad bet at the time.

Yes. Sergey Bobrovki creeping up the cons my favorites list he's up to plus 1600 if they keep getting this kind of goaltending from him they go on a magic run goaltenders have a tendency to win the consmith touching leon right now including goalie bob what a freak he's a freak he's fast kid alive but i mean if they so they would give it to if they beat them in the final the cats beat the edmonton oilers in the final and bobroski was brilliant if leon continued to play like this it's possible but uh and so connor leon and mack chuck are all co-favorites of the

cons might that plus 650 so they're honor does have the narrative edge right of course connor mcdavid uh if you can if you think the leaves can salvage a touch of pride and win a game in the second round for the first time in 19 years, you can get the Florida Panthers to win in game five at plus 280. So maybe the Leafs figure out a way to do it down there, and then they come back home and lose at home like they always do. That'd be great for you. Plus 280. And my last one, if you're a true believer, which there can't be many out there, but if you are, God love you. Show yourselves. Plus $750 for the Leafs to be the

fifth team in history to rally from a 3-0 series deficit. Plus $750, which doesn't seem like good enough odds to me. I do not like that number. That number is way too low. Double it? We'll talk. By the way, Sam McKee's been betting against the Leafs every game. He is rich. I'm rich.

I'm not going to tell because my mom listens to this show but i i could i could buy a tim hortons franchise your green fees all looked after yeah yeah yeah like the whole summer yeah i'm gonna be walking out there with that ronnie ronnie dangerfield potter after this run anyways that was playoff picks presented by bet365 visit the app for the latest odds okay we're gonna take a quick break. Craig Simpson, who called the game last night, will join us. Former NHL or two-time Stanley Cup champion. He's going to give us his reason why

the Panthers are out to a 3-0 series lead. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, all back after the break. Big opinions and in-depth conversations covering the Leafs, J raptors and the nfl the jd bunkin podcast subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts this is real kipper and born on sportsnet 590 The Van. All right, let's welcome in the man that called the game last night,

along with Chris Cutbert, Craig Simpson, former NHL or two-time Stanley Cup champion, and enjoying an off day in Florida. And we thank you, Simmer, for joining us, because we know you could easily be fishing right now on a patio jet skiing with CeCe it's killing me I'm looking out my window and I see the ocean and you're right

I should be out there trying to catch something but glad to be on with you guys well really appreciate it listen I mean we know this is a crazy game and emotions run high this time of year, but how surprised are you eight days later coming off Tampa Bay, the Leafs are in this predicament?

Yeah, no question that it's one of those moments that you've got to check yourself and say, how did we get here? Like, where did the process go wrong? You know how quickly in Kipper you've lived it, and you've seen how quickly a series can change or how a game can change. But I just think you find yourself in these moments now that you realize how quickly what you accomplished

in that first round goes away and you have to just start all over and you start fresh and you have to find a way to grind it back to what you were trying to accomplish the first time. And so it's a terrible position to be in. It's a bit of a shocking one, but it's one that happens incredibly quickly that you now have to look at yourself internally and say what have we missed what have we not done like there's no question in my mind that uh you look at the two teams and you have to have your top guys performing at a level that

can can drag you into the series can drag you into the fight, can get you over that hump. And right now, the Leafs find themselves in that precarious position with another two days in between games to find a way to stay alive. And Florida, to their credit, has kept that momentum from being the underdog to beat the you know david and goliath and they've kept it through and and quite frankly toronto hasn't had an answer they haven't simmer what do you make of toronto's core four play against the florida panthers so far you know why is why have things turned so drastically for them in terms of their ability to

get points well the the why is the question that you hear if you have the answer to that you'd be able to create a lot of other solve a lot of other problems but i i just think that it's those moments that you realize uh you know what can you do in the critical times to make a difference in the game? I go back to game six in Tampa. I'd say it's really the only time that one of the key Toronto players made a huge impact. You know, Matthew's two goals, the one quick little risker and then the tip in uh off the

shot from the side on the power play and that gets you that game and that gets you to the next round so there's your moment as a key player for toronto to to sort of establish that okay our our top guys can be the difference makers but in in this series, quite frankly, I credit Florida in a lot of the regards, but I also say you have to find a way to be a difference maker every night. And I haven't seen that. I've been doing the games. I've been shocked at times,

the amount of times that they've been sloppy with the puck. What did Sheldon Keefe say after game two like flabbergasted of second period turnovers and how it changed so I I think that the onus on the key guys is to take the level to another one and find a way to drag your team back into the fight. And quite frankly, the Florida, not just the core guys, but the supporting guys have done that, I think, at a way higher level than the Leafs have to this point in the series. We're joined by Craig Simpson, Hockey Night in Canada analyst. Simmer, just listening to you, I think twice you referred to dragging yourself or teammates into a fight here. And my point earlier in the show, before you came on, was that the Leafs are abundantly... It's clear that they don't really have anyone like that and i know you mentioned matthew's getting the goals against tampa bay but those are those are skilled plays but actually

this time of year when it's more often than not that you see teams come together and and drag each other that's really missing in these first three games is it not it is and kip i'll go back i was sitting with ryan sabidiak our our uh amazing kate person in our truck sitting by the pool i'm allowed to do that on an off day right you're good okay uh no but we're we're talking about past and i i go back to 1990 playing you know i i was fortunate enough to play with Mark Messier and Glenn Anderson on a line. And I go back to 1990 in two different series. And one being Chicago in the conference final, we're up two to one, but Chicago had one game three in Chicago.

And I, and Kipper, you you know this Mark Messier that day in the room was just a different Mark Messier he he was an angry he was the focus he was intense and he set the tone for the warm-up for the getting ready getting your gear on and honestly it was like for me the most inspiring thing that you go this is a game that we cannot lose and we're in chicago stadium which you know is a tough building to play in and that guy set tone for the entire team that this is a game that's not going away this is a game that i'm going to take care of and our line had 11 points that night mark had two and two and that sets the tone to win that and go on and in the stanley cup final we're up two to one against boston at home again we lost

game three on home ice and it was the exact same thing where Mark, our captain, was the catalyst to say, you know, Glenn and I, you follow, you do whatever you can to make the difference. And I go, that's what's missing. And I know it doesn't always magically appear, but the good teams and the teams that go on to win have those moments collectively that define how everybody is going to come together and make a difference.

And so it hasn't happened. Honestly, I thought the opportunity was there after a couple of tough losses on home ice to do it in game three. And Kipper, I was doing the game in overtime and you had three consecutive icings on not really much of a pressure play. And I go, like, that just can't happen. And those are little mistakes that maybe you can survive them. Maybe you can magically create that emotion that we're talking about now in game four.

But that was just, quite frankly, a mind-boggling overtime that just had no reason to happen. And those are the mental mistakes that it's hard to recover from. For sure. And Simmer, I wrote something in the first round on tampa you know when they had had some good runs of play and said like the other team gets to play too and part of it you know they have good players and part of it is adjusting and you know combating that what do you make of this florida panthers team who seems to have really caught lightning in a bottle at the exact time of year you want to get hot well and let's not forget like they were a great team last

year with the you know the moves that they made so they were the best team in the regular season last year had a good first round and then slained out against tampa uh last year so they they've got that fresh in their mind but there's there's no question that they're the ones dictating the play like uh i i've been impressed i was interested to see if the extra couple of days maybe stopped them from getting into the groove that they were because i actually thought coming off of game seven and playing two days later actually helped them they stayed in the rhythm they and paul maurice has talked about we have the exact same routine our guys are focused on you know day of rest day day of game and i i just think that they're the team that right now is dialed in they're the team that has been able to initiate and they're the team that's been able to create the turnovers and you know i i in game two there was a sequence of events that

probably if if we had have had the time to show the replays they created five turnovers on four check in the offensive zone and kept the play alive and had five scoring chances and i go like guys that that doesn't happen often in a regular season, let alone a playoff. And I would say, like, Florida to me is a team that believes that they're a better team right now. They believe in each other. And they have had those individual performances that break through

to the next level of just making something happen. And the challenge right now for the Leafs is, quite frankly, they haven't had it. Their top guys have not been able to have a breakthrough performance. And if you're going to win in the Stanley Cup finals, or not finals, but to get to the final, you have to have those along the way. And now you find yourself down three nothing that you know tomorrow or sorry two days it's crazy that we got two days again uh but you have to find a way to get to that next level of breakthrough performances and quite frankly right now uh justin uh they're

they're in that mode i think florida is in a comfortable mode of they're in that mode, I think Florida is, in a comfortable mode of they're getting those performances all the way through their lineup. Not just their first line, not just their second line, but even third and fourth that are getting those performances right now, and that's why they're up 3-0. The one thing that's so clear, and if we went back to even when they signed Tavares, you would have thought that

the middle of the ice for the Leafs would have been absolutely set for the next six or seven years when he signed and I'm watching last night and for me Simmer we know how hard it is to get to the middle of the ice but right now Florida seems to be dominating it with Barkov, Bennett, Lundell, and Toronto's getting eaten up with Matthews, Tavares, and Kemp was their best centerman. But right now, physically, it's not even a contest down the middle. No, and I said going into the overtime before we started i said you know the the positive thing is that the the fourth line which is really only two players in camp and

lafferty were probably one of your most effective and best players and and lines but that's a bad thing right you need your top guys to be the drivers and i i think you're bang on i i have not seen that kind of playoff breakthrough performance from anybody i early on maybe morgan riley was able to to get to a level that he hadn't in the regular season um but these are the moments that you go listen guys your season and the definition of what you are as a player is on the line. I can honestly say, like, when your career is over, like us, Nick, and you're looking back, you don't think much of things that happened in the regular season and what you accomplished there. The greatest moments are made in what we're living right now.

And so, you know, you can't all be Stanley Cup champs. There's an incredible journey to get there. But you can define yourself. How many times has that Doug Gilmore, you know, overtime goal against St. Louis been shown in Toronto lore? Like, those are the moments that you dig in and you say, what can I do at that special moment? And unfortunately, in this round,

there hasn't really been any defining moment for those core four guys that you can point to and say, yeah, like, they are taking this team and running. And so there's your challenge. You'll throw down the gauntlet when you're down 3-0 and say, can you be like the 19, what is it, 42 Leafs that came back from that? But you can't even focus on that. Wednesday night, if you're a Leaf player, you have to say,

I have to find a way to be a difference in this, or we're going to go quietly. And if I don't find that, you know, the onus is on them. They've been outperformed by the Florida top guys and actually the Florida depths, and that's something that's not acceptable. Well, you know, I want to ask you about that Wednesday. And last one for me, Craig, just appreciate your time. Wanted to get your thoughts quickly on what to expect on Wednesday.

You know, I wrote something today about does this Leafs core even believe in themselves that they can find it, muster up some pushback here? I think we'll find out a lot about them. What do you expect we'll see on Wednesday? Well, if you can't find it, then it's going to all be blown up. Like everybody talks about, well, what's going to happen next? As a player, you're not thinking about the next four years or even if I got five years left on my contract.

You're going, what can I do right now to get us to the next day? And so the challenge now from a leaf player perspective is what can i do to give us a tomorrow and if you can't bring your best game like if you can't have an impact on this one uh when when you're the top guys who you know this has been a good leaf team over the last four or five years of this group the last two years have been better than any in Leaf history. But these are the moments that you say, if you can't come up with some special moment, that will get us to tomorrow.

Like, all you have to focus on on Wednesday night is to make sure that you have a performance that allows a Friday night game in Toronto. And quite honestly, Justin, that's all you can focus as a player. You can't get those three losses back, but you can focus on what can I do on Wednesday to make sure we get a Friday game. So I think you're leaning towards me because Sammy says it doesn't matter. Win or win two, it doesn't matter if they still lose.

But is, is a Wednesday, Wednesday the difference between a very long summer or a summer where you can't show your face in public? Yeah. Oh, I don't think there's any question, Nick. I think you, if you don't come up with a – forget about even the core guys, like every player on that team, if you don't come up with a performance on Wednesday and win, yeah, you feel like you got swept in the first round.

I don't care what the numbers say that you got four wins against Tampa. It's the same feeling. When you get swept wins against Tampa, it's the same feeling. When you get swept in a series, it's pretty humbling, and this is one of those ones that you have to focus on. You can't get four games back in a row. You've just got to start with one, and if you don't get that one, though, Nick, I don't think there's any question it's a long summer

because it's a failure. I mean, to lose four straight against this Florida team, that's a failure. Simmer, always great stuff when you're on our show. We really appreciate your time and still some daylight time out there for you to take a boat.

Okay, I'll get back to the pool. Perfect. Thanks, Simmer. It's Craig Simpson. Hockey Night in Canada analyst. He's getting ready. He's got okay i'll get back to the pool perfect thanks simmer it's craig simpson all right i can't can an analyst he's getting ready he's got two nights off man and i bet you he's gonna really enjoy them jealous he deserves it he deserves it as we would now we by the way what a year for simmer on our show as probably i don't know how we'd rank our MVPs over the course of the season. We won't do it yet, but he's in the conversation. For sure.

You lean on him and he always brings it. So, Sammy. Yeah. He also said that, yeah, you got to show something. This talking about Wednesday thing is interesting to me. You got to show something Wednesday. And like, come on, just bring back a game five here. You're so done.

I don't want it. He doesn't a game five here so done i i don't want it he doesn't want to watch i don't know i just don't want it like i don't oh great they won one game why who cares oh my god like if we come in here and they win five nothing route great they come back to toronto and they lose on home ice and everyone kills them there like that's in the back of their mind too. They lose every game on home. I remind you, Mark Stahl and Goudas play on the blue line. And they're dominating the Leafs forwards.

Explain that one. I would just, could you imagine some of the undoing people have to do if the Leafs did the improbable? The amount of messages sent and articles written people would regret oh my god it'd be my dream i know i would never ever be happier to look like an idiot and i look like

an idiot a lot so it would be my dream for to look like an idiot but you know one at a time i know it's all you can do can't win game seven if you don't win game five right fellas oh my god hey we're gonna take a quick break uh we got brian lawton as well another guy that's if you don't win game five, right, fellas? Well, I can't get to game five without game four. Oh, my God. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We got Brian Lawton as well, another guy that's done a lot over his career. We'll get his thoughts and maybe get a Kyle Dubas outlook out of Brian Lawton. And maybe we'll sprinkle it around the outfield or the infield.

Which one is he saying? Infield, around the league. I want toield? Which one is the thing? Infield. Infield. Around the league. I want to get his thoughts on the New York Rangers. Gerard Gallant. Out. Yeah, we didn't even mention that.

Who comes in? Names? Sheldon Keefe? No. There you go. Two days off. See what happens with two days off. I was thinking Joel Quenville.

Yeah, Larry Brooks shot that down in an article. I don't know if that means it's over, but... There's some names out there for the old Leafs. We'll find out what Brian thinks after the break. Real Kipper and Born, back after these words. The best Blue Jays show out there, period. Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Bourne on Sportsnet 590 The Van. McIntyre's Justin Bourne. mckinryos justin bourne waiting on brian lotten to join us get his perspective from south of the border all right let's welcome in lots how are you pal doing fantastic kipper how are you well you, we're doing a two-hour Leafs show. Feel sorry for us? I never feel sorry for you two. We know locally what the vibe is here.

How about south of the border? You know, it's been really interesting, Kipper, that Toronto Maple Leafs finally got the monkey off the back, so to speak. They beat the Tampa Bay Lightning two-time winner of the Stanley Cup of the last three cups, three-time finalist. And then I sit here and I look at them and I say, I think I might think less of the Leafs than before the playoffs started. How can that be?

It's crazy. Now, obviously, how can you undo doing something as great as they did in the first round? And we don't normally say that's great for any organization, but the Leafs had struggled for a long time in the Austin Matthews era to just get by the first round. They finally do that. You're thinking, oh, boy, they're going to have to play Boston next, though.

And then Florida wins. And all of a sudden, they're down 3-0. And you're thinking about it going, how did that happen? That's just a really bad bounce for this organization. It is. It is. They have failed repeatedly when it looks like the door is open to walk through it. You know, this being another

example the talk around the team if you read any of the online discourses about how the core is not performed in the games that have mattered here what are your thoughts on you know matthews marner tavarez kneelander well i mean the problem with that is every game matters in the playoffs right and when they needed to against Tampa, the Corps did perform. They actually performed quite nicely. What's happened in the second round? Maybe too much euphoria. Who knows?

But they have been a bit of a no-show, and that's been tough for a lot of people to take. The Leafs are a team that is very top-heavy. When those guys don't perform, then the team doesn't look so good. Can they still get it going? Yes. Do I know why they haven't got it going against Florida yet? Is there any one thing I can pinpoint? Outside of maybe, and this is not known information,

but to me, Austin Matthews looks like he's laboring or hurt not a normal his normal self outside of that though i can't tell you why hey lots the one thing that's missing out of that that core four is a power forward there was a thought that austin could be that guy at center ice but it hasn't really materialized. And maybe he is hurt. And maybe to your point, something doesn't look right. But right now, they are physically getting dominated by the Florida Panthers. And I'm just wondering when it's all said and done, will you look at those four guys and say,

that's the one thing that was missing in the Leaf lineup is a one true power forward. You look at the success of Stanley Cup champion teams and you go down from last year to Landis Cogg to Ovechkin, Brady Shen, go down to any Stanley Cup champions and there's like two or three of those guys that can run you over. I'm looking at the Leaf lineup and going, who's that? Yeah, it's a little bit unfortunate for them. I actually think they have that guy. It's just too early to rely upon him, and that, of course, would be Matthew Nyes.

Now, can you expect to come in, have him come in and give that to the club? No, I don't think so. I mean, it's not a shortcoming of his. It's just that he's new, just got out of college. All of a sudden, you're in the playoffs. You're playing for an organization that hasn't won a first round in a very long time, and you're just trying to feel your way. But, yes, they do lack that guy, even though he may be on the roster.

It's just not realistic to think that he could get up to speed that fast. So it's a dearth that they have in the organization on this team. I thought, you know, Ryan O'Reilly, Noel Achari, Sam Lafferty, maybe they could give him a little bit of bite. And to their credit, all those guys have, but they still don't have that Dave Landeskog type guy that you're talking about, Kipper. So what becomes of this Leafs core this offseason then?

You know, this is a pretty good string of, you know, postseasons where I think you'd say you've got less for Marner than you would have hoped. You know, Matthews is kind of, you know, his contract, he's got one more year on it. No trade clauses are in play. The GM doesn't have a contract. Like, there's a whole bunch of figuring out to do

with this Toronto Maple Leafs team. Yeah, you know, there is. And I thought after the first round, all that stuff might just work itself out. Yeah. And here we are three games into the second round, and you're saying we're right back where we were. I don't think anybody knows at this stage. I mean, Kyle Dubas, you know, I've always maintained he's done a very good job,

but ultimately you're paid to go deep in the playoffs, and that just has not materialized. I actually was hoping for Toronto two things. Number one, that they'd get by Tampa, and number two, that they'd get by Boston. I thought, wow, what a turnaround this could be for this organization. If they can conquer those demons of those two organizations in one year and go on, and even if they didn't win this year, I think people would have accepted that as a tremendous success. What happens now, I think it's anybody's guess. You know, Toronto still has a top-tier team in the National Hockey League. The odds of winning the Stanley Cup are very low for everybody.

Other teams are trying as well. But this year, it's like the combination of everything. Beating Tampa, then to find themselves down 0-3, and then to be looking around the league and say, my goodness, this is the most wide-open year I've seen for the Cup in a very, very long time. It's probably tough to swallow for a lot of fans in Toronto right now. Lots not to get ahead of myself, but I will,

because we went down that path. But if you're a, an ownership group like MLSC there's a number of ways that you can move forward. But how big of a change or how much, what can they get away with in terms of not changing too much? Well, let's face it, MLSC, I mean, the organization does one thing well year in and year out, and that's they're very efficient, they're very popular around the world, and they make a lot of money. So from that standpoint, they're very efficient. They're very popular around the world. And they make a lot of money. So from that standpoint, they're good. It's not going to be easy because I don't believe anybody in MLSC is satisfied just making a lot of money.

I do believe the internal goal for that organization is still to win a Stanley Cup, is to still climb the mountain, to be at the top of it. So there's going to be a lot of soul searching. I mean, Brendan Shanahan's going to, you know, life is so much easier when things work out. Unfortunately, they don't always work out in sports. What do they do? I wouldn't do anything immediately regardless. I mean, I would really take my time.

If I was on the board of MLSC, I'd want to go through everything that's transpired and hear from everybody. There's no rush to do anything. If you're going to change things up, there's plenty of time to do that. There's no shortage of people, good people, that would be dying to work for that organization. It's just that kind of an organization. However, you may have the people right there. They may need more time. As difficult as that may be for people to swallow in that city, you may have the people right there. They may need more time. As difficult

as that may be for people to swallow in that city, they may. Those are tough decisions. I just think Kyle Dubas has done a lot of really good things for that organization. And even if they fail in this round, doesn't necessarily mean it was all for naught. So I'm fascinated. I couldn't tell you what they're going to do. Barney, what do you think? Yeah, no, I just, if they are eliminated here on Wednesday night, it's tough to see them bringing everything back as is. People just don't want to see it or hear excuses or process or anything right now like they want red meat, you know,

like there's upset people you've got matthews and elander who can be extended on july 1st but also have no trade clauses kicked in i think marner has a no trade kick in then too you know these are big decisions with these guys and so it's almost like if you're going to keep dubas he's going to be here for a while if you you let him make those decisions, are there candidates out there that can come to mind for you? That would make sense outside of Dubas. Like it's, I don't know, lots.

It's just tough to see someone coming in. And the first thing they have to do is make these massive decisions. I don't think there's anybody out there right now that I'm saying, wow. Yeah. Got out of my police. Yeah. They got to have them. The, they got to have them.

The organization would be so much better off if they made this adjustment at the management level or at the coaching level, for that matter. So part of that is part of my analysis, why it's, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Let's see what happens. You've got to have something that you feel is better if you're going to make change. And I don't see it.

I just think Kyle's done, you know, a very good job there. I think Sheldon Keefe, you know, I hear a lot about him and he hasn't gotten them over the top. He's dealt with a lot of adversity. Very, very well, in my opinion, with that team in the biggest market, under the brightest lights. So I'd give him more credit than people realize. It's not only tough to play in Toronto, it's tough to coach in Toronto too.

So I just think there's plenty of time for that. Let's see if this team can't get it going and at least win a game and see where they can take it from there. They're going to get that opportunity, and we'll see how they respond but ultimately i do not see anything on the horizon that i say they cannot let that slip away we're talking to brian lot and former nhl player agent general manager been there done that bought the t-shirt lots the three of us have kind of gone around uh talked about uh game four and what just one win would do but we all believe that the leafs will not win this series ultimately but can a win or two change maybe even saving jobs or saving a guy from being traded?

That's a great question. Getting swept in a series can eliminate all the great things you did in a series before that. There's no doubt about it. The league has a history of those types of things going on, particularly when you have a team when a lot of people are waiting on if they could come back and somehow make this series would it maybe save someone's job i guess it's possible but you hope the analysis would go deeper than that and you know there's just there's question marks on their group the biggest thing thing that I would ask Kyle would probably just be the asset allocation. You know, does this team in a salary cap world,

are you spending your money the way you need to? Everybody knows about the big four forwards. We can throw Morgan into that equation as well, who's played quite well, to be honest with you, particularly this playoffs. He's been their rock for a long time. But overall, that would be the number one question that I would ask if I was on the board. How do you justify that? You haven't gotten over the hump.

You haven't made any changes with it. It's been talked about for a number of years. Just walk me through why. Now, to your point earlier, yes, I understand Austin Matthews can be extended. I understand that Willie Nylander can be extended. But it's not that easy to make changes. Are you really going to trade Austin Matthews if you're not going to extend him? Are you really going to trade William Nylander?

I probably would have said that's something that probably should have happened if you were going to try to change that mix because it's just process of elimination. You really don't think there's been opportunities to trade John Tavares, not at $11 million. I don't think the Leafs have ever really wanted to trade Mitch Marner. And again, you know, when you get to these numbers, it's tough to make deals. Mitch Marner, I believe, would be significantly different than John in that they're six years apart.

And that's significant. So not that easy to make changes other than with Nylander. That's never happened. I've always felt the Leafs were just a little bit light on D, just a little bit light goaltending-wise. And I've eaten a lot of crow in saying that because I have said it in the past because they have had some really, really great regular seasons. But for me, I mean, I only ever wanted to be a GM to win it all in the playoffs. I could have cared less if our teams were first overall. It's all in the playoffs i could have cared less if our teams were first overall it's all

about the playoffs so is it fair in your estimation to approach people with no trade clauses like i john tavarez is the team's captain and uh toronto guy his family's here you know is it fair to even ask him is it fair to matt murray you know what how do you go about having those conversations because if you're going to retool this team and not rebuild, which is obviously what would happen given the team is very good, you know, those seem like integral pieces is freeing up cap space where guys are not effective. Yeah, I mean, I have a funny twist on that.

Is it fair? It's not fair to try to make guys move that you gave no trade clauses to, but is it fair to have a discussion with them about maybe you want to change things up with hockey players having been one for a number of years

in the league? Yeah, I think it's fair. I don't think you've got to insult anybody. If a guy doesn't want to move and you've given him a no trade, then he has a right to say no, and that's it. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, you can – to me, you can do it. Some people might say, oh, you might lose. You're not going to lose John Tavares.

He's a professional. He's been around this game for a long time. He's left the organization that drafted him first overall um you know i think you just got to approach it straightforward and be honest and a lot of times you'd be surprised players know where they stand they know what an organization's goals are they understand it's a business uh guys are getting traded you know fairly frequently still in this league um from somebody that was traded on christmas you just understand that that's part of the business doesn't mean you're happy about it but you do understand it and you do take it

like a professional so if kyle dubas stays could he go and do that uh could he go and do that with william kneelander i seem to recall when he was signed right before december 1st after his you know partial holdout there were some comments about they'd never trade him this saturday other thing if you went to willie nylander if they did lose this and said hey we might trade you um it wouldn't be a shock it wouldn't be a shock. It wouldn't be a shock to him, in my opinion. Now that we're down that path, I got to ask you, and I'm very cautious when it comes to saying that that contract is unmovable, because every time I say that, sometimes you find a way, even with two or three teams or how much money does teams

pick up on it but would Tavares's 11 million dollars times two uh be as close to unmovable as possible for you in the salary cap world where we're with it where we are in this cycle with regard to players paying back you know higher escrow i would say it's next to unmovable it shouldn't be in a normal time right but it's not normal times we're coming out of a pandemic we had a shortage of revenues it owners paid players players are paying it back salary caps are tighter than ever, they haven't increased at all really over the last few years. A million bucks a year is not what most GMs were managing to or planning to manage to.

And really, I don't hold anybody accountable. You essentially had a forced majeure event that nobody could plan for. I would say with all the circumstances when you add it up, unless the Arizona Coyotes are going to reinvent themselves and start spending a lot of money, and it wouldn't even really work for them because of the

term left in the age and where they're at in their cycle, yes, I would say it's unmovable. One more. I kind of teased everybody that i wanted to ask you about the new york rangers uh gerard gallant let go and a lot of speculation about the name joel quenville came around i think larry brooks kind of squashed that so i'm assuming someone within the ranger organization may have said quietly that we're not going down that path.

But what are the chances that Joel or even Stan Bowman resurfaces here in the future? I think they're good, quite frankly. I really do. And some people might be shocked by that. I think the burden of accountability is less for a head coach in this particular instance than it is for a general manager. So I think they'll both get back.

I just don't necessarily think it'll be on the same timeline. I am friends with Stan, but also with Joe Quenville, and I talk to him fairly regular. And he has put a ton of work into trying to better himself in order to get back in the National Hockey League. But Joel understands, and all teams out there, just for the record, there's no teams talking to Joel Quenville. Teams, according to the commissioner, and he said this publicly,

are not supposed to talk to Joel Quenville. Certainly they're aware that he's out there, and it does mean a lot if the Rangers say they're not going down that path, then the process would be you'd have to have a conversation with a commissioner. And to the best of my knowledge, that's never happened for many teams. Will it happen down the road? Yeah, I'd be shocked if it doesn't happen. Joel Quenville is a Hall of Fame head coach in the National Hockey League. What happened was horrific.

He's not happy about it, but he's taken it seriously. He's been severely punished. You know, the National Hockey League does not mess around with this stuff. You're not going to get a light touch. I think everybody knew that, but at some point, if you look at standards outside of the National Hockey League, the punishment would be considered incredibly extreme to date for a guy like Joel Quenville. And I can imagine a world in the future where if Joel continues to do the things he's done to put the work in to better himself, you know, the way he has dealt with everything so far, I'd be more shocked than less shocked if he doesn't come back.

We'll follow that story closely. Lots really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks guys. Brian Lawton, former NHL player, agent, general manager, and friend of the show. Indeed.

Another guy who knows what he's talking about. How many coaching spots out there? Right now? Anaheim. Rangers. Yeah, Rangers. Washington. I think I'm missing.

Oh, Columbus. Columbus. One more Toronto Sammy Don't say Toronto I didn't Did I? One more

That's a lot I think it's such a strange dynamic Calgary you can't talk to Joel but like you talk to the league before you talk to Joel I just think it's a

you're probably talking to Joel and be like is it worth me going to the commissioner yeah a little text on the side before we get this approved by the league, is it worth our time? Lawett's nailed. When you guys are talking to him about, you know, what a couple wins could do for the Leafs and everyone.

You hope it's being judged on more than that? Yeah. And that's a guy that's worked in every position in hockey that has a ton of knowledge on it. He nailed it. You really think that whoever's making the decisions, MLSC board, Brandon Shanahan, Kyle Dubas, they're looking at it being like,

well, they did win those two games when they were down 3-0 after playing like crap in a do-or-die game. That will save your job. They got to analyze it deeper than that to me. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to see them fight a little harder yeah they're they're join the club doesn't mean nothing they're in the playoffs still it doesn't mean nothing you know i just want to i just want to give a shout out i

don't know if you guys ever if you follow the the Beaverton on Twitter, which is like, it's like an onion. What is that? It's like an onion. It's like a Canadian, the onion. It's like a, a sort of satirical magazine.

And they have really, really great headlines. And their headline today was unbelievable. Leafs pleased. They could find a more creative way to devastate their fans than just losing in the first round. I thought that was so great. I'm sorry. I'm just not close to not upset.

I'm so upset. I'm so upset. Anyways, you guys can talk about big boy stuff now. For the record, though, you did kind of set yourself up a little bit. Sure. No question. What, by caring? No, not by caring. By just making winning the first round such a big deal.

Yeah. No, listen. All of these nations taking a beating for it. Those poor kids who were all hopped up after winning that game and they're all chanting, we want Florida and the Maple Leaf Square. I'd like to clarify for the record, by the way, they also chanted, we want Boston.

That is a creatively cryptic video that's out there yes i didn't hear boston yes there is a we want boston chant which you could probably pull up pretty quick but you know that doesn't get the play because it's not a would you feel better now being down three nothing against the boston bruins i mean it's hard to live in that world probably not i'd probably be just as mad but i'd be a little bit more understanding because the bruins are a historic team they're not you're not the favorites against him i'm telling you right now the least would it be the bruns i agree kip you love this stuff about contracts and matthews you wrote about it about the stakes yeah with these guys yeah

like the way their contracts fall is going to dictate what happens nylander has a no trade kick in july 1st which is also the day he can sign an extension um marner yeah but they has a no trade kick in july 1st as well if i'm not mistaken you know what i don't know i i i'm not i'm not sure so my do they kick in yeah my point wondering where i'm wandering towards what's that sammy i think it's july 1st that uh that willie and matthews kick in and matthews where i'm wandering towards is like if you're going to make a change to this core those become very relevant dates do they ever listen uh it's really not going to be much different than the matthew kachuk situation in calgary where you have to have a conversation and

but that makes the dubest thing permanent listen it could be this could be Brendan Shanahan's doing here not so much Kyle this is probably falling under president of hockey ops which is brendan shanahan so i don't know where the board is are they so pissed off that they wipe everybody out do they let brendan stay and make two changes do they let brendan and kyle stay and they make one change

or do they let them all three of them come back this is not what i think will happen or what i think they should do personally but what i do think will happen after hearing brian lotten talk is i think assuming they're eliminated in this round that that they will trade at least Nylander. Because he's the most tradable, if you're looking to make a change. He scored 40 goals. Insanely talented. I like watching him play. This is not what I want to happen.

I think they will trade him. Because the way the contract aligns, another year, still has high value. You don't want to trade Austin Matthews until you know he won't trade you don't want to trade austin matthews until you know he won't resign these guys are generational type players marner in a similar boat there for me tavarez you can't really trade so like if you want to make a change you trade neil well there's no question that uh you you you can't come back with the same look september if you lose on wed, you can't.

People won't even follow the team. No, it's impossible. I don't think, yeah. They might not even get to the show next year. They got to win four in a row to have any shot of keeping the core together. Any loss in this series. Fascinating. You think so?

Yes. Any sort of loss in this series at all. Seven game loss. Yeah. Doesn't matter. Someone's got to go. Ooh, that's a change from and a few days ago based on the order of the games would have been won and lost in

i think we've seen enough out of this series to say that we had thought over the last year or two that there were some issues on the blue line that because they went so heavy up front, they left it exposed. Yeah. And unfortunately I could say going into Wednesday night's game that the, the Jake McCabe trade has not worked out. You know what?

I think he's been good kit, but they're asking him to be great. Okay. They didn't need good. They needed great to help Morgan Riley. Well, they traded for good. You know what I mean? Yes, I know.

Yeah. And it never got fixed. Two million bucks for McCabe is great. However, yeah, you can't have him playing 25 minutes against the best line, and he's going to make some brain farts. So what is Jake McCabe? Is he a four, five, or six defenseman? I think he's a good second pair guy.

Fine. You know? I think this series has exposed what he probably is. Just to go back to our conversation is that people were talking about trading Nylander for a defenseman two years ago, three years ago. And they, you know, you didn't want to trade him in case he becomes a 40 goal guy and he

became a 40 goal guy. And now it's like, damn, but the problems are still there. You know, like the other part of it's still real. You know, if I'm another team and I've got a pretty good team that lacks offense, would that be what Carolina or someone like that? Licking my chops at the idea of six, nine for 40 goal,

Willie Nylander buying slightly used, but just for one year. And then he jumps to 10. Carolina wants to take that on for a year. They do. But yeah, it's a good point. You'd resign him.

Maybe he's worth 10. Yeah. Is that you can sit there and say, okay trade guys but they're they're 12 months away from being ufas where i can get him for free i feel pretty don't you feel like willie's like definitely gonna go ufa and just like pick a city somewhere he's going full goodoudreau. I bet you he lives somewhere warm. That's my prediction. Yeah, like, okay, then I don't know. California?

Yeah. Arizona want to pay him? No, no, no. Perfect San Jose shark. Hopefully they're Carlson. I can just see it. Well, that's a good call. It actually is.

Yeah. Perfect San Jose shark. You see him with palm trees, got the shirt open a little bit they they they get rid of carlson they bring in willie forward willie yeah forward carlson yeah yeah yeah willie will have a great time at the world championships next week oh my god what do we got tonight edmonton and vegas yes sir that's it.30 p.m. puck drop. Okay. Speaking of a team that has some jam. That's when I talk about power forwards, okay, outside of McDavid and Dreisaitl, Evander Kane and Zach Hyman. Yeah. Real good. That's how you win this time of year. Back cock. Seidel, Evander Kane, and Zach Hyman.

Yeah. Real good. That's how you win this time of year. The quote by Babcock. Okay? Real good. Those are the bulldozers. You remember one of those guys played here. Do you remember that?

Can't pay him. And he stunk in playoffs. You can't pay him five million bucks. Five million. God, you'd love Hyman at five million. What is he, five seven? No, you're right, five five. Five five? Oh, you can't pay him $5 million. $5 million? God, you'd love Hyman at $5 million. What is he, 5'7"? No, you're right, 5'5". 5'5"?

Oh, you can't pay him that. God, let him go. How would he look right now in blue and white? You got to keep Kerfoot. He's not even Flex Heel anymore. He's Flex Leak. Flex Heel played 18 minutes last night. You know, I think when you look back at the Kyle Dubas tenure,

when it's all said and done, letting guys like Hyman go and Nazem Khadri and Connor Brown and these sort of like workers. Skill, skill, skill. That was the mandate back then. Those guys have some, though. You know, it should have been the priority. This is a, like, Oilers and Leafs fans have a lot of rivalries.

Like, it's a very, Oilers fans hate the Leafs fans. And, I mean, we don't necessarily think about them as much. But they. I don't think about you at all. They really do put a beating on Leaf fans when it's going bad. And the fact that they just have these two studs who are dominating. And, like, they get that. Like, could the Leafs not just come out like that must win game they're two stars just kick the doors in i do have the clip you have the uh head coach edmonton's uh jay woodcroft on

leon dry sidle i do have that clip can you play it yes leon is the modern version of what uh power forward at the top of his game looks like um he's a huge man um but he has unbelievable skills and he plays the game with a measure of physicality you know that that's the the modern day power forward we're lucky we have him um measure of physicality so stoffer was like stoffer was basically having a conversation with jay woodcraft at the presser it was very the tone is hilarious but he's just like compared him to peter forsberg while he was asking the question which i thought was a really interesting comp comp don't you think like it's like the big powerful guy forsberg was more physical on more as like a yarmir jogger type the way he uses his body and protects the puck and it's a good comparison

for sure right a guy who's willing to take the contact i think dry saddle he's got a lot of brad may in there not saying he beat his mother up but he he's close. I think he's got so much FU. Does he? He's got attitude. Oh, God. He almost wanted to. He wanted to rip Mark Spector's head off in a press conference. Well, yeah.

No, he's a grumpy guy. He's got edge. He may not be the greatest defensively, and he may, you know, miss an assignment. He also puts two goals into that every single day. Yeah,'s coming he's coming hard that that's where you wish 34 here in blue and white was just had a little bit more of that for sure yeah you look at uh the second in command on the oilers and leafs and if you got marner and dry sidlel it's like you know Connor and Austin it's you're not coming out ahead in those conversations. He does he does look for physicality

and Austin tries to avoid it. No question. Yeah I don't agree I think Austin's probably second on the team in hits or something. It's not like he's hiding from contact. I don't agree that he's. Yeah I don't see the contact when it matters most

all right yeah what's he gonna say so what else well we're down to squids they're scoring the squids the scoring squids up to one going on there i just could you imagine the fear from you know the people who have the rights? I don't mean us, but like in the U.S., you're looking at like Seattle, Carolina, Florida. You don't think we're scared? Come on. Yeah, we're scared too. Panthers-Squids final?

This is my nightmare. Would you draw it up worse? Like last week, we were like, oh, the all-Canadian final is an absolute lock. Could you draw it up worse is a good question. Big H panel to that one oh god call it from a monitor god it's terrible next yanny gourd to have a terrifying and i um hey listen that's that's everybody's equal right no new york yankees get to outspend anybody that's the way it shouldn't be great that's the way they wanted it yeah parody's great wish right parody's great getting their wish right that's kyle dubas everything's great i hey yeah seattle's a big market yeah oh yeah definitely at least they charge an expensive ticket

yeah I mean you know fun fun first year build that base up Devils get a big win after going down 2-0 Jack Hughes who is what is he 5'9 120 pounds soaking wet and he gets in a fight with somebody I actually was very impressed by that

good thing to do early in your career just be like I'll do it. He did it. He could be. He got mad. He looked like he was mad that they were losing at one point. What a concept.

Sorry. They could find themselves in a final. Oh, yeah. I bet the Devils to win the Cup. Not joking. I recently bet them to win the Cup. At this point, why not? I know.

I actually have the Devils and the Oilers. I have money on both that I bet at the start of this round. Well, boys. Don't look at me like that. Sammy, I know you weren't looking forward to the show, but we got you through it. Yeah, I woke up today dread. Well, how do you feel about tomorrow?

I want you to... I want five positive storylines from you tomorrow about the Toronto Maple Leafs. Okay, yeah. Five. Joseph will have five fingers. Is the sun still going to be out tomorrow? Because that's the first one on the list. Our thanks to Craig Simpson on the beach somewhere.

And Brian Lawton. We're back tomorrow. Try to solve something tomorrow. I don't think we did it today. Real Kipper and Bourne. Thanks for joining us, everybody.