Real Kyper & Bourne - Camp Battles & Prospect Etiquette

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start the second hour with Doug MacLean for the first Off-The-Rails Friday of the new season (1:30)! He discusses his new book, ‘Draft Day,’ his writing process and shares some of the book’s stories, including an insider look at the Eric Lindros trade. Then, a chat about roster-bubble players and younger performers from preseason, the Leafs’ plan for them and how Toronto media treats prospects. Finally, an assessment of the goaltending battle between Ilya Samsonov and Jo Woll, whether another goalie can push into the equation and where Ryan Reaves fits within the offence. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

all right jb our thoughts on the music so far yeah i was just thinking about it bang my head against the wall before you know what it sounds like to me before we come to back from break sounds like radio music is it really typical radio music sounds like a good old strong riff yeah yeah it sounds like sounds like we didn't pay someone for something fancy. I like it. All right, we're in the second hour, which can only mean one thing on Fridays.

We will track down now what would be the third author on the show. That's right. So you had... Wait till Sammy's book. Undrafted by yours truly. Down and back by you, Justin. Born. And now we have draft day.

Sammy, can you find him? I can't drag this on. I'm not a professional host. What are you doing? I'm just calling him. You guys wait. We're on break for six minutes. What were you doing? Wait till Tuesday

when we're in studio. Everyone who's been requesting a Sam cam. Oh, buddy, there is going to be a constant Sam cam. It's good. This is going to happen live on TV. I know I got to do it all over again because now he's listening. I'm told.

All right. Former NHL president, GM host, and the author of draft day, how teams pick noses or get left behind. No, no, no.

How team picks winners or get left behind. Let's no, no. How team picks winners or get left behind. Let's welcome in Doug McClain. Mac, I was saying to the boys earlier, you spent the last few years being irrelevant like I did, and now you write a book, and now you're a true celebrity again. Isn't that exciting? Thank God Sportsnet fired

me. I had a chance to write this book. Okay. When somebody first came to you and said, we want you to write a book, what was your reaction? I said, are you serious? No, I have no interest. Zero interest.

Like, you know, I did. And then they said, no, no, we'd like it to be like the money ball of hockey and about the draft. And I said, oh, okay, maybe I'll do it. But I told you once I was offered a book deal in PEI, and it was a great deal. They said if I gave them $60,000, they'd write a book about it. Hey, I'm shocked you didn't bite.

That's how badly you needed to get yourself back out there. I got a better story than this. So I'm going to play golf today. I get home last night after just grinding in Toronto for four days. PR, PR, PR. Working my tail off. Then I come home. I'm going to play a nice round of golf with my buddies at Cavendish

Green Gables. I put my clubs out in the driveway because my buddies pick me up. And I said, okay, I'll wait. And then we have a guy here fixing our stove because we have to big Thanksgiving our stove wasn't working properly so I go out and my guy's picking me up now all of a sudden I see the guy left from fixing our stove backed over my set of clubs three wood driver five wood snapped to rest of them crinkled and he just got the truck undercoated so the bag was covered in grease like can you believe this an author it just happens to james

patterson come on do you really think it'll affect your score i I go to the club and I tell the pro, I look, I'm missing some clubs. He said, Mac, I'll look after you. I'll look after you. Is this unbelievable or what? Like, seriously. Anyway. That's wild.

You know what? It really, it's so exciting to be a celebrity again. It's unbelievable. So, Mac, what of the book are you most glad to have out there? Like, you know, it's a lot of stories. It sounds like draft-related. Kipper had teased something about the Lindros trade in there. Would you say that's sort of the highlight of the book

is revealing some of these behind-the-scenes conversations that the public never got to see? You know, I think it's a lot of what it's like to be a GM around the draft and the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. You know, we did a chapter on the war room. We did a chapter on putting the list, you know, developing the list. Talked about the scouts. I mean, the Lindros chapter was a really unique one

because Pierre Paget has always been a great friend of mine as a fellow Maritimer and a guy I really admired. And he was in Austria. He lives in Austria. So I phoned him. I said, Pierre, we need, you know, the Lindros story because it's one of the greatest draft stories of all time, to be quite honest, from the draft with the Nordics to the trade. And he said to me, Doug, I have kept every note of every conversation

I had with 14 teams, and I would love to give it to you. So Scott and I were on with Pierre for hours going through every trade, what the hours were. But listen, I was involved with the Detroit offer. I was assistant GM in Detroit at the time, and we offered Iserman, Racine, I think LaPointe, Sillinger, all really top young guys, $15 million. Pierre came back to us and said,

I will consider your deal, but I want Federoff instead of Iserman. That's what Pierre said to us. And Pierre reiterated that to me, because I had forgot about it years ago. So he did it with Montreal. Patrick Waugh was in the deal. The Leafs deal was unbelievable with Gilmore and Wendell Clark.

Like, it's mind-boggling. Gilmore and Clark? To read these offers was unbelievable at the time. I saw the Toronto Star reporter, Kevin, around there this week, and he said he read the book, and he said he could not believe the Leafs offer. So Cliff had made the offer, and then Pierre goes at 3.30 in the morning, and he gets a call from Cliff. I'm in a sweat here in my bed and i gotta pull my offer

i can't make this offer yeah pierre says in cliff you've been a great mentor for me you've been a great friend there's no problem pulling the offer so it's it's and then the ranger offer and the philly offer and how they both were accepted and how that all came down and how it all happened. And Neil Smith snapping on Pierre. I think it's a great chapter. I really do. And you know what? Pierre said that they took Guy Lafleur in to meet with Lindros.

And Lindros, after the meeting, Guy walks out with Pierre and he says, Pierre, there's no chance he's coming to Quebec. You better trade him. That's what Guy Lafleur said to him. So, you know, it just, and what he said at the end of it all, he said, number one, everybody tries to compare who Eric Lindros was. Let me tell you what Eric Lindros was. He was a six foot five Gordie Howe.

That's what he was. And he said at the end of it all, Eric Lindros did not do one thing wrong in the entire process. All he did is went with his rights, which he had, and he was a perfect gentleman through the whole thing. And the only reason he wouldn't sign with the Nordics was Marcel Abu because Marcel Abu told Dave Chambers, the coach, to lose every game because we want this guy. And Eric said, I am not going to Quebec if that's the case. And that was the reason he wouldn't go. Fantastic story.

I think it really is a good chapter. But, you know, there's some fun. Look, it's my experiences with the draft, good and bad, and lots of stories about other people, you know, Brian Burke. I mean, you know, I said, I said in one story, even geniuses like Brian Burke have bad drafts. In 1999, Burke had 11 picks and one guy played one period. And I said, Berkey, you, you know, you had some off drafts too, man. As smart as you are. But I also detailed the whole Sadin story, which was just an amazing

work by Brian Burke. So it's a lot of those things. See what he did? He gave Berkey shots. He gives him an uppercut, a left hook, and then a body blow, and then he comes in and there's a little cherry

on top. So when I finished the book, Simon & Schuster sent me 10 things I had in the book. And they said to me, Doug, these are 10 things that our lawyer have identified that we could be sued over. Could you maybe soften your stance on these 10 stories? Jeez. So I softened them. Are you going to lose a few friends? Because a book's really good only when you lose friends.

No, you know what? I don't think I will. I told you the one story that a guy, Stevie Y, will be mad at me. I was I was working on with Keith Primo on, on crossovers. And Keith was our fourth overall pick in Detroit. And he was, he was having trouble with his skate and I was working on crossovers and Stevie skated over to me after pride. He said, do you Brian Murray think this guy will ever play in the NHL? And I said, Stevie, I think,

I think he's going to be a really good player. And he said he won't play a game in the league. And then I said in the book, I'm glad Stevie changed his evaluation process when he became a GM. So, you know, Keith did play 15 years. So it's not a shot. It's just fun stuff, you know. But, I mean, I think I was really fair.

It's not a rip job book. It's just talking about the draft. And how, look, I'm serious, guys. And this really came to fruition to me in the book. If a GM hits 15% in the draft, 15%, he's done a really good job in the draft. That's how tough it is. So just to kind of put a little tie to Eric Lindros, and you were right there in the heyday to witness it all, including the hype more than anything else on Eric Lindros. This year, we start the season Tuesday.

Connor Bedard in Chicago. And, Mac, this guy's getting a ton of attention, and it's warranted. He's a special talent. He's already, we've witnessed that already in a short training camp. It's not, is it a comparable? Is there anything close?

Will anything ever be as close to what went with Eric Lindros? No. I coached against Eric Lindros with the Legion of Doom. And that line was so dominant. And we played him in a six-game series with the Panthers, and we won the series in six games, but he was a dominant, dominating, physical presence and so good. And it, I mean, it was just, I remember going into the training room every morning after playing that six-game series with the Flyers

and the number of my players that were hurting because of Eric Lindros. It was mind-boggling to me how big and strong and tough and good this guy really was. So, you know, it's pretty amazing. And Bedard, you know, I had a great conversation with Brent Sutter about Bedard for the book. He coached against him six times this year in Red Deer. And he said, Doug, I would tell you that he reminds me a lot of Braden Point. That's who he reminds me. I think he will be Braden Point or better.

That's what he said about him, which caught me kind of off guard. But that was Brent Sutter, who I respect a lot, and coached against him a lot. That's who he said about him which caught me kind of off guard but that was Brent Sutter who I respect a lot and coached against him a lot that's who he compared him to which you know I would have thought oh maybe Sid or you know but no he's saying Braden Point does that catch you off guard a little well I see it in terms of stature and kind of style but yeah expectations are certainly above the Braden Point yeah level for sure you know i'm curious where you stand on these guys that you draft and they come to camp and look good and if they should get nhl looks if it helps their development they obviously i'm tying this to the leafs and fraser minton a guy who's 19 years old but he's 6-1 and he's playing well like is it the right thing to do

to just see if these guys can play or is it a negative for their development i as i said to somebody dave hodge he started off an interview with me the other day with john shannon and he was he brought up three bad picks of mine and i said dave let me tell you something listen Listen here. Listen here. Who do you think you are, you pencil-flipping Hockey Night in Canada guy? When I drafted those guys, they were unbelievable.

And I don't know what the hell happened to them after the draft when they got to camp. What happened to them? I don't know. I don't get it. And then my kid phones me and said, who's this Dave Hodge guy going after you like that, Dad? That is a joke. Who does he think he phones me and said, who's this Dave Hodge guy going after you like that, Dad? That is a joke. Who does he think he is?

I said, Clark, he's a very famous hockey guy in Canada. I don't care. He was hard on you. He was hard on you, Dad. Anyway, so you know what? There's lots of fun things in there, and there's lots of, I think, good stories. But when I was writing the book at the pool, sitting at the pool in Florida, and the old girl, you know, the ladies were sitting around the pool,

and they said, oh, Doug, we can't wait to read your book. Like, they thought I was like a James Patterson type of guy. I said, ladies, I don't think, ladies, I don't think you're going to really enjoy the book. I don't really think. So when it comes to judging talent, and, you know, from Stevie Eisenman, who didn't think that Keith Primo would ever going to make it to the Conor Bedards of the world, how many guys,

and maybe I can tie this into Minton a little bit here in Toronto, but how many kids over your career, Mac, where a lot of people were very high on that maybe got overhyped or just underdelivered? Well, I had a lot of guys, and it's well documented. Like, seriously, Jared was the best player I ever saw at 18 in my life, and one of the best players I ever saw in these early stages of the NHL. I watched him go end-to-end and blow by Duncan Keith and Marty LaPointe

on a rush, on a rush, end-to-end rush to score a winning goal against Chicago. And I'm sitting on the – I was coaching at the time, and I said, oh, my God, I have a superstar here. I have a guy that's going to be so good. And my veterans were just shaking their heads. And then two months later, Federoff – I had brought Federoff in to be so good. And my veterans were just shaking their heads. And then two months later, Federoff, I had brought Federoff in to mentor this guy. That's why I made the Federoff deal

was to bring him in to mentor Jared M., you know? And Federoff came in my office two months later. He said, Doug, I know you brought me in to work with Jared M. If I never see this kid again, it'll be the best day of my life. I hired a private investigator to follow him around. I mean, it just goes on and on. Did that make it in the book?

Oh, yeah. It's all in there. It's so devastating to me what happened to Jared. It was a sad, sad story for Nikolai, who, by the way, is still playing somewhere in Europe as a 40-year-old. And it was so devastating to me and to him. It was a sad story. A 14-year-old who left Ukraine to go to Moscow to play. And that is what became of him.

I also did the whole Sid draft. You know, the chapter's called the pittsburgh model after berkey's comments on pittsburgh about how they got sid in that that goofy draft where betman and company and i remember going to the board of governors meetings and saying are you guys kidding me you're giving every see we had the lock of year before sid we're you're giving every team an opportunity to get Sid Crosby, and I've got an expansion team, and I've got a 3% chance to get Sid. Are you guys serious?

And you could get everybody wanting him, and you could get no momentum at a board of governors meeting or a GM's meeting because they wanted every team to have a crack at this guy. And I'm thinking, are you guys serious? And I get Brule, and I've been criticized and ripped every which way. And I got Nick's quote in there about what did Brule versus Kopitar cost me. And I said, you know, probably about $30 million. You know, I played against Brule in junior hockey when he was 15.

He was a player. I thought that number was a little low. 30 million. Yeah. He was so good. He was so good. You know what? I told the exact stuff in the Pittsburgh model on the whole Brule Kopitar, what happened there.

I mean, Kopitar, nobody had Kopitar in the top 10 in that draft, and I've been ripped for years. So I tried to give the rationale behind that. But I took the blame for those picks. I made, I, I changed our list in that draft and GMs, you have your hundred man list going into the draft.

Boyd, he had Copa tar at five. I believe I had in the, in the book in that draft. And I said, I said, Boyd, how do I take the European Copa tar ahead of the North American Brulee? After what I've gone through a year, that how do I take the European Kopitar ahead of the North American Brulee?

After what I've gone through this year, how do I do this? But the problem was I was convinced Montreal would take him at five. And all of a sudden, Montreal would take Carey Price, who we had 22 on our list that year, and most people had Carey Price in the second round in that draft. And I changed the list and went with Brule, and that was my call. And I said in the book, you never change your draft list unless the GM, the only guy that can change the Chiefs scouts list is the GM, and I did it.

But, you know, Kopitar went 11. There was 10 other geniuses that missed on him. You know, when you look at that list who went before, you know, Jack Skille went, Dale Tallon took Jack Skille. Brian Murray took Brian Lee, who I don't even know if he ever played a game. Set of Gucci went ahead of him. You know, it went on and on, and he goes 11. But anyway, so I took the fall and blame,

and I just told it the way it was in the draft. So it was kind of a – it was an intense book to write because a lot of it was my experiences, and they were tough. And, you know, I told the Stevie one. I'm sure I told you this one before about Stevie and I shaving in front of the mirror in Detroit. We're both shaving after practice. And Stevie looks at me and he says, Doug, you're, you're a,

I'm a pretty good player, right? Doug. And I said, Stevie, you're a star, you know, 40, 50 goals. And then he goes, Brad Park, Harry Neal, Danny Belisle, Bill Day, Nick Polano, John Demers, you and Brian Murray. Imagine if I had one good coach, how good I could be. And I looked at Stevie. I looked at Stevie, and I was lost for words.

And I said in the book, I was, for the first time in my life, I had nothing to say. That is hilarious. He is Doug McClain, former NHL general manager, president, and now author of Draft Day, How Hockey Teams Pick Winners or Get Left Behind. You can find it on any of your major outlets, and you can probably order undrafted by me or down back with Justin Dorn.

Three-pack. Three for one. I got some bad news. My literary agent. Do you have one of those literary agents? He phoned me today and he said, Doug, some good news. We're number one on Amazon this afternoon

in three categories. You keep sharing those stories. It'll stay number one. Hey, one more. I got to let you go here, but one more before you go, okay? And, you know, we live in a world now that if someone wants to go through private phones and look at pictures, they lose their job. Hey, hold on, hold on. What would the biz-nasty and spitting chicklets do to a guy like you today

if they ever found out that you put a private investigator on a player today? I think they would have agreed with it. They'd have been with Jared in one of the videos. I've got one final story that I did not put in the book. And me and Scotty battled on this one. And I love Scotty Bowman. I love Scotty Bowman. We've become good friends.

I was assistant GM and Scotty corners me one day after practice. And he said, Doug, you talk to Mike Gillidge every once in a while. I said, once in a while, Scotty, but not a lot. He said, let me tell you something. The Tigers are really struggling with their right-hand pitchers. They're really smart with the Tigers. And I said, yeah. And he said, tell them that he should sell Iserman

and buy a right-hand pitcher for the Tigers. So my point is, he and Stevie were not very tight in the early years. And then, obviously, Stevie became the greatest captain in the history, one of the greatest captains in the history of the game. So, you know, my problem, I the history of the game. You know my prom, I got too many damn stories. Oh my God. Part two coming out in 2024.

And folks, he's going to be around all year long off the real Fridays to share all of them. Are we going to get him on video this year? Are you okay to come on? We're going big now. We're going back on TV. This show's going back on TV. Are you ready to come on? Yeah, we're going big now. We're going back on TV. This show's going back on TV.

So are you ready to come on air? Well, you made me an offer. It's part of my reclaiming the celebrity status is you made me an offer. Okay. You wanted me on every Friday, and I accepted the offer, and I'm very excited. And my only question is, does Sportsnet know this? Yes, they do.

Ask for forgiveness, not permission, Doug. 100%. Hey, all seriousness, good luck with the book. It's fantastic. It'll be a great read for many hockey fans. Well, you know what? You guys letting me be on off the rails last year really helped me become get back in the spotlight and i really appreciate everything you've done for my career

somehow i don't believe you all right he's doug mclean good warm up to the rest of the year thanks for doing this max doug god i gotta tell you guys that's a just a whole flock of great stories there yeah that's some that's some real history right there i don't know how gm sleep at night like just knowing you let go yeah so it would drive me crazy yeah like guessing guessing on who's gonna well change the course of history for you. So differently, yeah. So the guys he mentioned, I played against Brule, Lee, Skilly.

Like I saw all those guys play. Brule was way better than any of those guys. Like I understand the thought. And I guess you get burned by, I guess. Coping it so easy now, like a copteretard would be like, how did he miss that? Hey, and maybe this comes back a little full circle to the Leafs with Minton and Cowan. You just don't know how they're going to develop.

It's great, but do you really want to take a chance on figuring it all out for these kids over 10 days and then you got the media hype and you know not to be lost in all of this and i'm not talking about minton and cowan per se but you know what does it do to individuals when you start reading your own clippings or your buddies start telling you what everybody's saying about you and all of a sudden you know media developing superstar it really

can play short and long term on your development on these type of moments and listen Cowan's going back right I don't know when he's going back he should he's going back to london you'll play the last preseason game on saturday and he'll probably

go back after that the question i have is how does he go back in terms of? Mental. Yeah. Right? And where he is mentally on the experience that he's had and the success that he's had. Because I've seen this countless times and I've experienced it, you know, in North Bay. Where you leave for the first time a certain way and you come back a certain way mentally. Yeah, yeah. I went through that process myself. I came back coming off a training camp at Philadelphia where I came back and I went there a nothing. I came back with an NHL contract. Yeah.

And now you're, you know. I didn't have that experience. A little cockier, a little bit more strut, a little bit more, you know, a little cockier, a little bit more strut, a little bit more, you know. And then I watch a guy like Kevin Hatcher, who ended up having a great NHL career. He was with me in North Bay. Got drafted by the Washington Capitals.

Went to his first training camp. Signed a contract actually if i'm not mistaken he played one or two games he actually scored a goal kevin hatcher kevin hatcher okay the washington capitals at 18 but they sent him back to north bay i can tell you for the first four to six weeks maybe our worst defenseman yeah well and it's almost like that i don't know i don't want to say it's disappointment to be back down but there's like an arrogance if it'll come easy or yeah you're right the the mental frame with which they handle you in that transition back to junior is important think about you know okay london's regarded as one of the top junior teams in the country

you probably put it number one you're you've spent three weeks with the Leafs, and you've got private chefs, and you're eating the shrimp. Not the little tiny ones. Oh, those are jumbo. The jumbo ones. The size of Sammy's head on the jet. You don't think Mark's doing that in London?

Mark Hunter's got that going in London. Then you go back to London. Takes a while to get the shrimp to London. Then you go back and you're like, come on. What is this? Or the opposite, Kip. Or the opposite, that you're just so fired up from your experience. You had a great start to the season.

You've been playing great competition. You just come in like a bull in a china shop against a bunch of junior kids yeah listen it's it's some some could be a rocket ship for the kid some guys get screwed up with a little bit early and need to get their bearings again and others no you're you're right i don't know i don't know personality wise he doesn't seem like the type to get full of himself he seems like a pretty humble kid he's's going to be a Leaf really soon. Oh, boy. And I don't know what, 18 months?

Two years? Okay. He's going to be a Leaf. Yeah. And he's going to be a good player. I like him. I really like him. But between him and Minton, how good, we won't know for sure. I think there'll be players that can work up and down the lineup.

It's so funny when you see guys like this, and you may be talking about a good third line winger you know like i mean who knows i'm not saying that's either their ceilings but i'm saying minting could be a they're clearly nhl players eventually to me a thousand games being a typical third line center right and we get so excited what moves the needle in the nhL is the game change changers to people who are better than the average players in the NHL. Are they that? I don't know, but if you have below average guys in your roster and they can come in and

be average, that would be nice too. So, or they could be really great. Whatever team they're traded to at the deadline for defense help. Also a concerning option. Imagine if they traded nice last year, we talked about that all year.

Imagine if nice was suiting up for the red wings this summer nize looks huge he's a player man like that's what's jumped out to me is his size i also don't think he's gonna get as many points maybe as people think like he might be a 40 point guy but i love him as a player so kipper yeah team x comes to the least of the deadline they're like hey we're you know we'll give you our quote unquote i need that pesci for the run but we want cowan we want cowan or we want of the deadline, they're like, hey, we'll give you our quote-unquote defenseman. Fine, you can have Pesci for the run, but we want Cowan. We want Cowan or we want Frazier Minton. They're doing that 10 times out of 10.

They're gonna have to give something up to get something good. But that's, to me, gone. Not even thought about it twice. I guess it depends what you think these guys' ceilings are. You know, like, Cowan was first-round gone. Where's your ceiling You know, like Cowan was first round guy. Where's your ceiling to win, JB?

You're right, too. That's relevant here, too. Bye. Bye. Now you got Brad Tree living here, not feeling like he's got a win to save his job in the next 12 to 24 months either so just keep you've talked about all the prospects and stuff that have gone and the picks that have gone it feels like this beautiful home the leafs have is built on stilts at this point kick out you know kick out another prospect or

draft pick and trade willie and all of a sudden it's like boy but you need to give up something to get something. Deadline talk in October. The stock in these players is the most important thing for the Leafs. Not whether or not they might be in the lineup in the first week or two weeks. It's just that regardless, they've done enough work where it's starting to get some serious attention outside of your organization. Even if you knew how good they were, now all of a sudden it's the attention that comes around it. It's a big advantage being in Toronto for prospect value, I think. Because these names are everywhere, right?

Well, I mean, we don't need a better example over the last 18 months than Nick Robertson. You're right. That's exactly where I was going to. Like, Nick Robertson got tremendous hype out of Toronto media. Yeah. And it could, it sways the perception out there. He was.

And the perception she done swung back. You think? Oh, buddy. Yes. And you're not trading Robertson for any value at this point oh oh yeah you know the perception that it swung back around the good perception no i mean like there was a moment there where robertson was yeah when everybody made fun of kipper for saying they should trade him for sam bennett remember that everyone made fun of kipper

for that one that probably would have been a good trade that probably would work oh yeah you know what the funny part is now still i get uh i get willie for nick ritchie and you know what they're they exclude montez since montez has been like a stud in florida they don't mention that anymore the crap of the leafs in five games last year that's funny that's funny funny. But I do believe that there'd be teams willing to take a flyer on Nick Robertson. Like, I don't think that his stock is complete. No. No. No.

Sammy, how old is he? 21? 22? Not sure. 22. Well, look it up. I'm typing. Can you hear me typing?

Sammy, come on. Sammy's going on TV Tuesday, and now i i get attitude 22 years 22 see that kip he's not the only one that's turned into a celebrity it's doug mclean yeah it's sammy's and he has like his own he might be that guy i was talking about that goes back to junior and just thinks his you know what doesn't stink anymore i promise you i will never you're you're gonna get killed about every lineup error all year long because kip's gonna be like oh now you're too good yeah 100 so 22 years yeah and hasn't found his spot yet but yeah i don't think you completely write him off i see i don't i'm not saying he's not able to play in the NHL.

I just don't see where he plays for the Leafs. That, much like we talked about Cowan going back to London, he's destined to go back to the Marlies. He is for sure. He's waiver exempt. Waiver exempt. Him and Holmberg are almost automatics yeah because they don't need to be protected and i would love to see them get looks and i wrote an article it's

up on sportsnet.ca some things the leafs may do this year one of the things i'm hoping for is more regular call-ups of ahl guys when the team is healthy give tavarez a night off and let holmberg come in you know give mitch a night off oh here wemberg come in. Give Mitch a night off. Oh, here we go. You want to turn in the NBA? Yeah. Load management. No, I want to win a playoff round. They did win a playoff round.

They banned, what's it called, the NBA. You're not allowed to do load management anymore. What do you mean? There's like a star player thing that you're not allowed to do it anymore with load management. Yeah, and you want to bring it to the NHL. I do. I want to rest good players who are old so yeah i did hear that

though but i don't know the details sammy how does it work if someone says well they got a sword yeah exactly his hammy hurts yeah they're just gonna lie yeah they'll lie but i think it's like if you've had a all team like a first team nba or second team of all nba like there's a whole level of thing you have to go through to have it. For the record, what I did want is their American League players to get more run because I think they have good fringe players in the American League this year. Anyhoo, we should do the last break.

All right, I get the break signal from my astute producer, Sammy McKee. Stupid producer? I was going to say, what did you say? Astute? Astute. What did you call me? I thought you going to say, what did you say? Astute? Astute. What did you call me? I thought you started to say stew and then bailed on stupendous or. But stupid works too.

Stupidly astute producer. All right. We're back. As you can tell, Real Kipper and Born. Or something. You've been listening to the real kipper and born show just a reminder sammy yes we hope everybody has a very good long weekend thanksgiving on monday we are back tuesday sammy yeah and just a reminder we will be going from 4 to 6 Eastern. Correct.

Here on in, Tuesday. Yeah. On TV. That second hour across the country. We will be on their radio stations and on the telly. Kip, you do Thanksgiving at your house, or what do you do? You just took the kids to school. They don't come back for Canadian.

Well, I don't know. It's a touchy subject. Oh, is it? Oh, boy. Yeah. That's the little, you know, they want to come back and it's like. It's another thousand bucks a ticket. And then when you're in the States, you can't possibly stay, you know, in the States on Thanksgiving.

No. American Thanksgiving. You should. It's the best weekend of the year in the country. But everybody leaves and you don't want to be by yourself in the States when everybody's going back to their families. So, you know, I'm sorry, but you might not get two Thanksgivings. Yeah, it's not a cheap round-trip ticket to come in a bird.

So I don't know how it all ends up. I'll probably pay for two tickets. It's today. It's like when they fly in I'll probably pay for two tickets. It's today. It's like when they fly in today. Nah, come in tomorrow. It's fine. Well, no, no. I got one kid coming for sure.

Okay. This one. Okay. So I'm fighting the American one. And I will lose. The Bournes, by the way, fully recognize American Thanksgiving. My wife takes it off work. It is the far better Thanksgiving.

What's up? There's no comparison. Are you a football guy too? Yeah. You get to sit on the couch. Watch the Lions lose, do the whole thing. Lions might win this. No, they're better.

I know, I know. But it had been a tradition that they were poor. I suppose it could turn around here. All right, listen. The one thing I didn't do, which, because I forgot, is that, you know, we've never really gone this long on a two-hour show in the last year and a half without a Kipper's Clipper.

Oh, my God. We had a stack of Sheldon Keefe on Kipper's Clippers, and we haven't thrown to one yet. You know why we haven't? Jays. We did 20 minutes a day. We can't end our first show of the year without having a little Sheldon.

What do you want to listen to? Do you tell me? We didn't talk about goaltending. No, let's... Are we going to get into goaltending? There's the Reeves one. This is a really insightful clip. This is from Sheldon Keefe from last night after their win over the Red Wings.

He didn't get tested a lot, you know, but there's some things there, you know, we want to get him to tighten up on for sure. Agreed. I think you say after one of your buddies gets wasted at the bar and loses his keys and stuff, it's like, yeah, just tighten it up a little bit here. That was basically his showing. Not a good night against a team that we couldn't find really. We couldn't string three or four names off the Red Wings that were familiar.

Like that was, it was actually, it was a decent game, I thought. But when you look at the star power on the Leafs last night and what Detroit offered, shouldn't have been that close. The Bergman one you want back from Samsonoff. Is that mostly on Samsonoff for you, Sammy, that game against Detroit last night? I haven't thought he's looked good the entire preseason. He's only had a one-year deal at arbitration, eh?

It's going to be interesting. Another pressure year for the guy where he's got to a one year deal at arbitration eh like that's uh it's gonna be interesting another pressure year for the guy where he's gotta earn his money and another year where you're not sure if he's gonna be the guy come playoffs for this team it's not a sure thing you gave me a seven out of ten concern for the leaf blue line where are you

on Samson off you know i'm right there as well but like you know i've talked to people be like i think joseph wool is going to be the guy come playoffs i got i'm i've heard that from people i gotta tell you boys not 100 sure either of them are going to be the guy game one against tampa bay for the third straight year fourth straight year third you think it's gonna be tampa bay in the first round ah maybe i guess it's to be the guy. Game one against Tampa Bay for the third straight year. Fourth straight year? Third. You think it's going to be Tampa Bay in the first round? Maybe. I think it's going to be the Sens. Whoa. That would be

the best case scenario. I'm not sure the Sens are ready quite for that. I think it'll be Leafs first place. Sens wild card. What's going on with Josh Norris? Good prediction. No idea. Where's Pinto at? Yeah. Josh Norris, though, has not played yet.

He's coming off a major surgery, you know, all of last season. But, yeah, there's still some concerns around there. Oh, yeah, like he's not healthy. Well, I'm not sure if it's Josh himself being a little bit overly cautious. Oh, really? Or if there's actuallyosh himself being a little bit overly cautious oh really or if there's actually some issues going on but that's uh he's an important part of that that young core group if i'm a sense fan nothing you said was inflammatory but i winced a little because you don't like hearing that things just are weird, right? And you remember with the Leafs and Freddie Anderson and the knee in playoffs,

it was always like you didn't get a clear picture. What's going on? Is it the player? Is it the team? Where are we at here? Those things are never fun. They never go that well. Well, it's, again, if we look at a lot of sports leagues like the NFL

and Major League Baseball, there seems to be a lot more forthcoming on that type of information. Yeah, when there's gambling involved, you start to really have to be a little bit more transparent. Oh, is there gambling involved? I hadn't heard. Oh, you will this year. But just, I mean, we kind of glazed over the fact,

like what's your confidence level in the least goaltending kipper i think that uh it speaks volumes that that samsonov uh is on a very short-term deal for sure i think that uh he he will be pushed a lot more by Joseph Wall than we ever saw anything out of Matt Murray. Mm-hmm. Do you think they tried to get him on a longer-term deal, Samsonov? Yeah, I think they would have easily given him more years if the number was low enough, but, you know, they would have taken their chances if he could sign a longer-term deal at 3-3-2-5.

Yeah. But not, I guess, at the number that he thought he was going to get. It's crazy that the guy would keep betting on himself. I guess if you're playing for the Leafs, you're like, I got a good chance at having a successful season here. I'm going to get 40-some starts. You know, it's, I will say that you think about how crucial the goaltending position is in playoffs look at what bobrovsky did for florida last year the leafs will have to make a decision on if he's their guy by january you know somewhere

thereabouts or you're shopping at that point so he really like it's a crucial few months of goaltending for ilya samsonov out of the gates this year. And to your point, Sammy, not a great training camp so far. Any thoughts on the camp that Martin Jones had? No. I thought he was okay. Well, yeah, but I know Martin Jones has a track record. But you need a third guy, though, Sammy.

And he was an easy fit at 750 for sure but like he's probably gonna get waved right they wave him what a great guy to call up unless you think kip that he'll get claimed i there there's still there's some teams still with some questionable decisions there's tampa and what do they do with vasilevsky on the shelf for three months that to me he he could end up in tampa bay proven veteran guy he's available would be appealing for a team like that for sure he's not i don't know what is he 32 33 i mean once upon a time the guy was making $5 million. Was he not? Was he not a high-paid goaltender?

Yeah, he's had a couple good years. I don't know what his... Well, he was a backstop, and they went to the final, and they lost to Sid. He was a highly drafted guy, wasn't he? Yes. Yeah. I'm on the Googles. Martin Jones has earned $36 million in his career. Thank you career that caught me straight up off guard yeah 33 years

old yeah he has oh wow he has two big contracts one one three times three and one five times almost six five times five seven five yeah so there has been stretches when he's been a very good goalie what happens with these guys is once you tell them they're supposed to be the number one goalie and lead you to a stanley cup that's when kind of things can but those years a little different in san jose those sharks teams were good he was a 918 912 915 save percentage and then it went south yeah since then he's been an 896 basically every year. That was an astute pickup by Brad Tree Living. Yeah. To pick a guy up like that at that minimal.

Yeah, and you see goaltenders. You like them, Kip. Kip does like them. Listen, you don't need a third goalie until you need a third goalie. And I don't know. Joseph Wall has all this upside, and he looks like he's got a promising future. And he was a goalie in playoffs when the season ended. Mike McKenna, if I'm not mistaken, mid-January thought he could be the number one goalie

for the Leafs to go into last season. I love Mike McKenna, but this is his boy. He's a St. Louis guy. We know the history there, but if he believes it, he believes it. Yeah. And I believe that he believes it. It's a believing circle. We all believe.

So should we do one last one and get a Ryan Reeves thought in? Kip, you wrote something. Let's go on Ryan Reeves. I think it's been great. I've been really happy with him all the way through. Learned a lot about his game and him as a

pro. To me, he's been very solid in doing his job in every game. When it comes to him, he advances it. Makes very few, if any, mistakes defensively. He's in good spots.

He pays attention to it. You can see why he's played in the league a long time, not just because of the toughness and the intangibles he brings. His overall game is very efficient. And no matter who we've played him with, that line a lot of nights has been one of our best lines. And I think a lot of that is just because they're just out there playing. They're not trying to do anything or be anything that they're not. He knows exactly what keeps him in the league.

And I think he's done a really good job of showing that here early. That's super high praise. That sounds like a guy that's going to play every day. He is going to play every day. He is going to play every day. I know Sheldon well enough to know that he doesn't talk about anyone like that who he doesn't genuinely like. Ryan Reeves, everyday player. He is going to be beloved.

I'm telling you. Are you not a little shocked he didn't punch-a-size someone in preseason? I don't know, and this is not a, this is not me on, on Ryan Reeves. I don't know if the game set up for him to, to be beloved as much as you think. Well, who's going to fight.

Well, if he fights a couple of times as well, but if he doesn't fight, it's him and Jack. I, but if he doesn't fight that often, you know, then how often do you But if he doesn't fight that often, you know, then how often do you think he's going to fight?

Well, I think it's funny if he just chucks a few people, Kipper. How many times have you talked about, Kipper, the threat of a fight mattering? Yeah. Right? Like the threat of a fight, having him out there. That was a weird sound. It's a slap fight.

Yeah. Listen, it's going to be interesting to watch for sure. I'm predicting my Leaf Nation meter predicting beloved. All right. I'm predicting fight night one. There has to be. And Luchich. Is that why you don't see anything in preseason?

Because they're all saving it for Wednesday. You can't have torn up knuckles going into the big tilly. Oh, well. All right. On a scale of one to ten, how fast did this two hours go for you? Fast. We had one guest. Yeah. Oh, well. All right. On a scale of one to ten, how fast did this two hours go for you? Fast. Fast. We had one guest.

Yeah. One guest. Our Doug McClain, author of Draft Day, How Hockey Teams Pick Winners or Get Left Behind. RIP his golf clubs. Yeah, and we'll get him new golf clubs. Hey, been a treat already. First day, two hours, and look for us on Tuesday throughout Sportsnet's network and here on the Fan 590.

Real Kipper and Born is back. We'll be right back.