Real Kyper & Bourne - Canada Questions + International Style with Sam Cosentino

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Justin Bourne and Sam McKee welcome in Sportsnet’s Sam Cosentino to offer his thoughts on Canada’s loss at the World Junior Championships, where the blame lies in the disappointment, and the direction needed to get back on track. (1:31) Then, they take a look at the U.S. development program, and what has allowed the Americans to improve so vastly, before getting into what the ‘Canadian’ style of hockey looks like, the parallels between the World Juniors roster and the upcoming 4 Nations Face-Off roster, and what could change ahead of the 2026 Olympics. Later, the guys take a look at the strange play in Colorado last night involving Scott Wedgewood and Zach Benson, and finish the show by answering some of your texts. (49:51) The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. I am Justin Born. We are not with Nick Kiprios today. Kip somewhere doing something Washington Capitals related. I am joined by Sammy McKee. Sammy, how are you? I'm good, buddy. I'm sitting in a weird spot.

How's it feel? It's weird over there. Literally never sat here before. It's not so bad. No, it's fine. Yeah, Kipper here before yeah it's not so bad no it's fine uh yeah kipper's doing one of the things like i'm the most jealous of like nhl guys for yeah like alumni stuff yeah it's just like they i know all sports do it and like it's a big thing for all this but it just feels like the hockey guys i don't know they're the alumni of it it's

just going to hang out with the old guys you want to cop with i mean this just doesn't sound much better and it's always like yeah they flew us out and we played some golf course and they took us to a steakhouse and we had to sign a couple autographs. And it's like, yeah, probably. Take Friday off. This hour at Kippenborn is brought to you by Bet365. This is a reminder to get texts in to us in the back half of the hour. We are going to respond to those.

You can text 590 590 uh exciting new feature coming soon we're going to take some calls as well which is going to be a lot of fun so i mean it's not we're not doing it quite yet and i the cat i guess is out of the bag here now but yeah like we'll do that more in the leafs hour yeah but we're going to have some some contributions it won't be live because we can't trust you dopes but not at all there'll be some some answering machine involved. A good old-fashioned answering machine. I know. It's pretty awesome. So looking forward to that. Also

looking forward to our first guest joining us today, Sam Cosentino, our hockey analyst for Sportsnet Junior Hockey Expert. Sammy Cos in the hotel room. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. Happy New Year, boys. I see you got rid of the dead weight and moved Sammy into the spot.

Yeah, I'm not liking it. I don't. If I'm being totally honest, I've sat at the desk here before a few times when Kipper's been away or Borny's been away, but I've never sat in Kipper's chair. Yeah. And I hate it, but I'm here and we're doing it. So how are you sammy nice glasses a couple sammies with glasses on today yeah well i'm sure kipper will reclaim that oh

yeah yeah yeah no problem he'll be kicking me out of here pretty quickly boys don't worry so cause are you in ottawa i'm in ottawa i was there last night i'm here today and i'll be there for the two games tomorrow and there'll be one team in red and white that won't be playing yeah so let's uh why don't instead of doing an overview just tell us about last night what were your thoughts on how canada looked played last night and in the way the loss unfolded so borny here's the thing that i want to do first like i've been reading a lot i've been listening a lot watching the one thing that nobody has really said, and I haven't seen everything, but I've seen a lot of it. Let's give the Czechs credit.

15 drafted players. They play a brand of hockey that they're hard, they're heavy to play against, and they have enough skill to beat you. And so, okay, this isn't just a one-time thing. The exact same thing happened last year. And going back a couple of couple years ago it was Canada who had to beat the Czechs to win a gold medal so this is like it's not a mirage it's not something that just happened oh Canada's awful they lost to the Czechs let's give some credit to where the credit is due for what is a really good team and has traditionally produced really good players now

that that's out of the way let's talk about where we are with Canada and what happened. So there was a change at the top in terms of the management group. Peter Anhalt from the Lethbridge Hurricanes had been there previously. Al Murray, he was a longtime National Hockey League head scout, helped build two championship teams with the Tampa Bay Lightning, comes back to Hockey Canada, which is a place he'd been previously to be their head scout. And then they go and hire Dave Cameron. And I think there was that slight shift from going back to last year when there was a different management group running. Peter Anholt was still there. And you had a coach in Alatang who'd been an assistant at the World Juniors a couple

of years previous who was a little younger. And you had that dynamic and so that dynamic didn't work and i think hockey canada wanted to make a shift to a little bit more old school trusted people people who've been around a long time dave cameron you know this would be his uh i think third or four or fifth world juniors if you include his assistant coaching duties and and so that's where it starts for me borny and then we can kind of move along from there yeah i i can't imagine dave cameron had a very good night's sleep last night after a way that a lot of the stuff unfolded for him in this tournament like it wasn't pretty it wasn't pretty he's taking a lot of heat today he's a guy who would wear that just like any other canadian

what a proud guy who's been on the other side of it in terms of winning a gold medal a couple years and been on the really bad side of it when you get to the gold medal game and lose when you're leading 3-1 into the third period 5-3 against the Russians in Buffalo in 2011. So this guy has seen all sides of it. He's a wonderful, wonderful person. And I think some of the criticism, it needs to be shared. I will say this. Having Gavin McKenna serve a five minute major i didn't think that i i didn't like that i think the move to put mckenna once he was back

playing with the top line in the latter stages of the second period and all of the third when you saw what they produced in the third period is probably something that should have been done sooner but i do think there are things along the way um that that should have been done sooner. But I do think there are things along the way that might have been done differently as well. And it starts for me. I'm not going to sit there and say, oh, there's six guys that should have been there. If I look at the group collectively,

the one thing that I would have done, because you have those extra roster spots, like Zane Parekh is a guy for me I would add him to the team. I don't think there's anyone who can run a power play in the CHL like Zane Parekh, the ninth overall pick to Calgary last year. He's extremely dynamic. I understand why this group didn't go with him, because he looks a little too laissez-faire.

He's a little too casual. There are some defensive issues with him. And when I look at Chris Lazzari, his head coach in Saginaw, being on the bench and they didn't take him, he must have had a lot of votes against him. For me, I would have taken him. Even if I had to sit him down and then realize my power play is not that good without him, Matthew Schaefer's out, okay, come on in.

Play your six, seven minutes. Run the power play for us. If you can earn our trust, then we'll start to play you more five on five and maybe you become Ryan Ellis of 2009 or 10 or whatever it was yeah it was as like the eighth or the seventh or eighth defenseman just there for the power play and then worked his way into a top four role so that that for me would be one miss personnel wise that i would be critical of and i've i've pretty much said that since day one but i will say this guys i looked at the roster that they brought to the table and i said an nhl network working there last week

that they they would win a gold medal and so yeah maybe i should be well criticism too right sammy here's the thing that's concerning for me is i talked about this a little bit in our first hour that you know regardless if you like this roster or team canada regardless of the roster selection or you know this guy's left off or this guy's left off your b plus a minus team should be good enough to play for a medal like to go out two times that's what's concerning to me and like i don't know if it's a bigger thing it's a generation thing but like i am a little bit concerned having two straight seasons like i know that's not the biggest sample size

but two straight seasons out of the of the medal play for team canada at the world juniors i mean that's unprecedented and it does give me a little bit of concern in terms of the direction of the program and and rightly so i mean you're right the the b team should have been good enough to be a competitive team in this event with the latvias and with the kazakhstans and the switzerland's and the germany's and so on so i agree with that sentiment hold heartily having said that 10 first round picks then you got mckenna is going to be an early first two years from now you got porter martone who's going to be an early first in this year's draft. So essentially you have 12 first round picks.

You had over 220 goals, I think, minus Ray Kopp's goals, minus Schaefer's goals in the lineup last night. There should have been plenty of firepower to A, run an effective power play, B, be able to score five on five. And so when I get back to the starting point is, you look at the shift in management

you go back to a to a coach who's been there before and then you look at the players i think there's responsibility to be shared from from the players from the bench right on up through to the top and so you can't sit there as a player and say oh well i didn't like the coach i didn't like his decisions i didn't like my utilization so on so forth. You still have to take some responsibility. And, you know, there was some of that going on last night, but probably not enough for my liking. But honestly, that responsibility needs to be shared from the players bench right on up through to the top of the management,

which Scott Sam and Peter Anhold and Al Murray did today. So, Sam, it seems like it was bad enough to ask the question, where's the reckoning coming? Because, you know, I've heard criticism of the coaching, like why didn't they practice as something that's come up a number of times. I've heard criticism of the, you know, who they took, why didn't they take, you know, these five or six players. So you don't lose like this, lose three or five games in a tournament. Everyone goes, ah, we'll get them next year. You know, where's the reckoning? Where is the reckoning? So I think there's nine or 10 guys

that have potential to come back. And this was a younger team. Make no mistake about it. Like some of the guys that we're talking about being left off the roster are 06 players, only drafted last year, 18-year-old players. The common theme that this is a 19-year-old tournament really rings true.

Like I look at Ryan Leonard for the U.S. This guy is an absolute animal. He takes punches in the face, kick to the face, broken nose, talked to him yesterday. And at the very end, when he had a chance really to do something bad and maybe get suspended, he skated away, went to his bench. That's a 19-year-old mentality. At 18, you snap, you you whack you do whatever you do you

probably take a suspension you're out for the semi-final game like that's what a 19 year old mentality does to you it's the learning that goes along with that so i look at the 06 group the 9 or 10 guys that are coming back next year i look at mckenna as a guy i can come back more tone uh schaefer i don't think they realize the impact this guy was going to have, but he was literally their number one defenseman. Yeah. Like, this guy is unbelievable. I've watched him grow this year, the two prospect games in November. He was the best player on the ice.

Is he your number one, Sam? On the ice. So, Bukes has him at one. In my last ranking, I didn't. I'll probably put him there this time just as much for his absence, Borny, as for when I watched him play. Really? Because you realize the impact he had absent in the lineup for Canada.

This guy's unbelievable. So the reckoning, Borny, comes in that you have a number of returning players. I think they're not going to come back with the same coaching staff. Chris Millett is a guy in Cologne who's had some success with the under-18. So he's a guy who's familiar with the 06 group he's probably a guy who should be in serious consideration for the head coaching

job a little bit younger than Dave a little more connected in terms of just the age group and a guy who's worked in a great program in Kelowna so he'd be if I had to say it right now he'd be a choice Gardner McDougal out in Moncton has had a lot of success in a lot of different areas. He's not everybody's cup of tea, but he's a guy who wins.

He probably should garner some consideration. So it'll be interesting to see. But to get back to answering your question, Borny, I think the reckoning comes in the fact that you're going to return the same number of players basically as the U.S. returned this year. And you'd hope that that learning experience would carry forward from a player perspective. You'd like to think it would be taken care of and now management and the coaching staff has to, you know, would have to fall in line to do its part after that.

Yeah. You mentioned the, the USA, Sammy and, you know, watching that team play it's like, that's what we used to look like. You know, that's, that's the killer instinct. It's the size, it's the shots, it's the physicality. It the size it's the shots it's the physicality it's just the dog for lack of a better term and it's just their program in the last 10 years has just taken off and as a canadian hockey fan clearly our biggest rival it's very worrisome to see how good they look like like you said that ryan leonard he is just a dog on a bone that goal he scored against switzerland takes a puck across in that top corner.

Like, he's an excellent player. And he just kind of exemplifies what that program is. It terrifies me how good they are. He's totally. Like, Gabe Perrault, James Higgins is going to be one, two, or three. That Iserman just fires it. They all shoot it like Matthews. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, the interesting element to all that is it kind of tips back to the CHL NCAA equation. This U.S. under-18 program that's really been successful and basically the starting point to get to the under-20 program and where it is might end up taking some hits because of this. Because that was a choice. You know, there's a William Moore who plays there now, played his hockey in the greater Toronto area, his minor hockey growing up, a dual citizen, decided to go play for the U.S. under- under 18 program that's the type of guy who now probably stays and plays in the chl and some of those other u.s born players who are saying well it's kind of cool to play in the program because we have an international flavor we play in the ushl we play against college well how about we just go play and go play 60 add your playoffs 75 games in the CHL,

and just keep building games, games, games, games, games, that type of thing. So that program may look a little bit different, Sammy, but it really is the impetus for what we're seeing resulting in a gold medal last year for the U.S., and I would have to say the favorites going into this weekend here. It would be hard to bet against them. So I want to zoom in on cowan here a little bit because

easton cowan has clearly taken a pretty bad beating over the last 24 hours in terms of the performance on this tournament being a high profile leaf pick in a country where you know they're not the most popular team i mean what have you made what did you make of his tournament what do you make of him as a prospect after that and like just your general thoughts on cow and after what was a really disappointing few days here spoken like a true owen sound attack oh i'm just devastated to see the london knights struggle so much this tournament just broke my little heart yeah so listen i followed the london knights for a long time and they've always had a program where their best players play a ton and that includes two minutes in the power play and five minutes in a five minute power play.

Sammy. I know I had to watch Corey Perry shoot four in when they're up 11, four against the Wolf attack. And he's playing two minutes on the power play. I had to watch it. Don't you worry. Oh, no,

that movie. Yes. So now you're taking these players and Sam Dickinson and Oliver Bonk. And now you're putting them into a program where you've just played your 40 games and and you're two years previous to being that guy yeah now you're asked shorter shifts if you don't get it done get off the ice um but we need you to work in bursts and i think you saw with easton and books was pointing this out to me is like you gotta take take a look at his shift lengths they're longer they're 10 to 15 seconds longer than the rest of his

group that kind of messes with the entire chemistry and the flow of things right for everybody else and yes you are taking that responsibility on yourself you want to do more you want to be the guy who is the hero but actually doing less is doing more because you're rotating through your group better you now can focus your energy on those short bursts and go out and do what you do best get to the net front drive the net shoot the puck and those sorts of things and i think easton got got away from that and part of that with the habits built in for playing in a london nights program that gives you a lot of freedom to do those things and part of that as an older

player 19 year old player easton has to take upon himself to realize hey man i i got to get with the It gives you a lot of freedom to do those things. And part of that, as an older player, 19-year-old player, Easton has to take upon himself to realize, hey, man, I got to get with the program here. And I have to understand, I have to do all that same great work that I do in London, but just do it in a shorter time frame. And that's not something that really happened throughout the course of the event. You know, Sam Dickinson, he had a tough night too. You know, he was bobble-pucked around.

That was a brutal bounce. Just like you're just a tough man. I want to fear him. Yeah. Yeah, but the one at the end of the first period. That was battery. Knowing where you are on the clock and not puck over at the opposition blue line. Like, that's not a play that you can make.

But he's an 18-year-old guy drafted last year. That experience, he won't make that mistake next year, right? So, again again there are a lot of different things when it comes to count and his long-term projection as a leaf project he's still a very good player what his ceiling is i mean is he a top six guy he's probably right on that edge but he works extremely hard he's really talented he can play with skilled players he is good enough with his stick work and his strength to be able to check and that will continue to get better i have no concerns about him for his long-term projection as a maple leafs project is he a surefire top six i think that's

something that only easton is going to be able to to create and again if you're looking at being in the top six for the toronto maple leafs for the next three four or five years well there's three guys immediately you got to beat out. So there's basically three spots. Tough spot to crack. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and Marner, are you better than those guys?

Does Marner leave? What happens with Tavares? So on and so forth. So, again, I like the long-term prognosis for what Easton Callen can be for the Toronto Maple Leafs. That hasn't changed. I didn't think he had the best tournament. I think there's going to be some great reflection

for him moving forward here. And we'll see how it works out for him. But he'll probably go back and score in another 30 straight games. Yeah. Kazi, do you think there's still such a thing as a Canadian style of hockey? And I ask this because McKee has brought it up before where, you know, you used to think of our identity as Canadian hockey was guys like Pronger

or Lindros or even Mark Messier, you know, skill, toughness, sort of that element. And, you know, when I look at international hockey, everyone kind of, the game has been boiled down to there is a little bit of everything, right? Everyone kind of plays the same. It's like MMA, I was saying the other day, used to be UFC would fight a, or sorry, a sumo wrestler would fight a boxer. And then everyone realized, okay,

it's the best if you have a little of all these different skills. Everyone kind of plays the same. So is there still a Canadian style of hockey? So when I think of that, I think of the Brent Sutter coach teams back in the mid 2000s, where they'd come out and throw 10 hits

in the first five minutes and automatically everyone's engaged and that's the way they're going. The game has changed. Like, it doesn't really work that way anymore. So what I think, this team was built, to me, along the similar lines of the Four Nations team. You know, we talked about Tom Wilson a lot. Well, do you really need Tom Wilson in a short event like that?

Is he going to go out and is he going to intimidate people? Eh, maybe. Is he still going to be out and is he going to intimidate people? Yeah, maybe. Is he still going to be able to do some of the other skilled things? Probably, but we might be able to find a better skilled two-way guy who can do all those things for a short tournament. And so I think this team was built sort of along that premise,

a lot of good two-way guys who are higher compete guys who are a little bit more responsible. And we've seen this shift, Borny, like you go back to 2014 mike babcock in charge we're going to go all skill and let the skill sort itself out lines one through four oh wait a sec previous to that it was where there's a clear fire top six and a clear fire bottom six and the bottom six is going to check the pants off you and the top six is going to outscore you and we're going to have a good goalie well that's not really how it is anymore either so now we're in that mode we're just going to get a whole bunch of two-way players and see that we're

going to be a really good defensive team and we're going to be able to score goals and i think proven at this level this year that's probably not the way you can go about your business you go take all the best skilled guys and allow the skilled guys to sort themselves out and if you look at stanley cups what are we seeing guys third lines fourth lines having an impact go back to that great team you know nick paul gets acquired and you think about that fourth line with tampa when they were winning cups you think about vegas and how they were able to play four lines i think that's the way the game's gone it's four lines of skill yes you want to have some some grit and some bite in there if you can find the unicorn

like tom wilson that's a fantastic element to have but that's not the necessary element that used to be required to go and win in an international play yeah it's funny we were talking about a little bit last night in lee's talk but my favorite international hockey line of all time was from the 2010 olympics when they had their quote-unquote checking line of rick nash jonathan taves and mike richards And it's just like these three guys are their – Richards was fringe at the time. He was fringe. But, like, he was, like, one of the best – I think he was on the –

he was one of the best players on the Flyers at the time, but he had that sort of skill. But then you had Rick Nash and Taves. And you just think of – I don't worry about Canada having the top guys. Like, I always – like, I mean, look at Gavin McKenna. I look at Schaefer. I'm like, yeah, these two guys are bona fide studs. They're going to be contributing to our men's senior national team

for 10 years after they go in the NHL. I'm not worried about that. It's just the waves of guys and what lines underneath is what I'm a little bit more concerned about. That was what I would be on it. I agree. But having said that, there's enough talent to be able to fill all of those spots.

You're 13 forwards, you're 70. And by the way, now, in the World Juniors, you've got that little bullpen, those three extra guys you can bring. So if you need to bring specialists, there's room for that. If you need to bring some bite and some intimidation into the lineup because the U.S. is playing big and heavy and they're running around, we'll bring that guy. We have the opportunity to bring that guy.

If we need a power play specialist, we have an opportunity to bring that guy if we need a power play specialist we have the opportunity to bring that guy and sit him in the bullpen and and use them you know when when required so um i think the way to go about is you take your best skilled guys and you let themselves sort it out and let that internal competition between crosby and mckinnon and mcdavid, boys, here's one puck. Go get it. Who's going to win that puck? Yeah. I think it would be great to watch and great to sort out, right? I do think the world juniors and just sort of watching it. My stakes were higher in it this year because of now knowing that we've

entered into the best on best. We're back. Where, you know, we for 10 years, years well i guess the 2016 where they had like where canada beat team europe in the final not real like sure that was that was best on best but like it's been since 2014 it's been a full 10 years since we've had like an olympic or a best on best and it's been a real commitment to to start it and now i'm starting to feel the stakes where it's like you know but dave's not old mckinnon's not old. But like in four years after the next Olympics, it's like you need to get real good.

And that's why I felt like the stakes were so much higher. And now I'm going into this four nations face-off, which, you know, it's a fake made-up event, but like it's the best USA and Canada are going to be playing in a high stakes game. It's like the stakes are really higher for me after watching what happened at this. Like I need Canada to be playing in a high stakes game it's like the stakes are really higher for me after watching what happened at this like i need canada to be really good like i can't have them be bad at this level and then not succeed at the senior net level like i'm in shambles if that happens

well you know what sammy like if you think about it right you know elliot's talked on 32 thoughts a lot about the the extension of the cba and the cba for sure is going to include some sort of international play, most likely the Olympics and some other iteration. And rightfully so. It's crazy how long we went without it. Oh, it's crazy. But the Matthew Shafers, the Conor Bedards, the Gavin McKenna's,

like not today, not tomorrow, but four or five years from now. Oh my gosh, you're darn right. You're going to need those guys. So it does start here and it does start with, you know, the experience of putting together a good team and playing a team game and understanding roles and, and doing all of those things at this level. So that when you get asked to go play in those big events, you're, you're accustomed to it. And so I agree wholeheartedly,

like this isn't just a one and done all we're never going to see McKenna again, or we're never going to see Schaefer again. You're right. We're going to see these guys in the international stage for a long long time to come. Last one just quickly about McKenna. I really like the look of this kid and I think he had a lot of flashes of brilliance and maybe a little bit underutilized

but how good is he? Is he in the McDavid conversation a step below that? Where in generational is this guy for you? Because I was really impressed with what I saw from him. He's not Matthews. He's not McDavid. He's not McKinnon.

Yeah. But Bedard, and I know he's out and off here with 33 points in his 38 games. Yeah. But he reminds me a lot of that because his ability to shoot the puck, release it really quickly with accuracy, with hardness, but also like the sneaky playmaking ability yeah so he looks a lot like bedard in that fashion for me and that he's kind of a dual threat but he'll probably like you look at his i think he's got 19 goals and and 41 assists for for medicine hat right now but those numbers for me

could easily be be the other way yeah 41 15 guy i do think he's a he's a dual threat type of guy and he'll probably make his his mark and his calling card a little bit more on the playmaking side but he can't sleep on his goal scoring ability so i'm looking at more of a of a bedard type with not quite as high end scoring ability all right and uh and last one for me kazi we appreciate your time today just I know you're always evaluating your rankings and where you have guys. Is there anyone who has stood out on a stock up, stock down, not just from Team Canada, but while you're sitting there, you know, watching that tournament in person,

have you changed, revised an opinion on any players since you've been there? Well, Schaefer's absence won for me. Porter Martone, I think he's the real deal. I know he was dealing with some groin issues that hasn't gotten talked about a lot, but you can see there's a lot there from a power forward perspective. There's one kid by the name of William Ackland who plays in Sweden

who I went to watch him a little bit yesterday. A little bit of a smaller guy. His brother plays in San Jose with Salabrini. He's really, really impressive. He's got his head in a swivel. He's always looking for open ice. He's got a lightning quick release release he digs pucks out of corners he wins battles against bigger opponents so he's a guy for me like i have him in the top 10 but he's probably a little bit of a riser and i think the other thing for me is james haggins he confirms to me he belongs in the

top three where he fits in that group i'm not sure it. It's probably one or two. But, man, is he ever smart. Is he skilled? He skates. He's got details in his game. He adapts his game to those he plays with and the level he plays at. So he's been really, really impressive and confirmed a lot of things I already thought about, James. What can we expect from you? When will there be your next ranking list?

What's on deck? Yeah, so we'll get back home. We've got the Wednesday night show coming up next week. next ranking list what's so what's on deck yeah so we'll get back home we'll get the wednesday night show coming up next week and then uh the ontario hockey league's having a prospects game i'm going to wait until after that game to put out the the latest list but schaefer martone misa and and hagan's you'll see those guys in the top four for sure so it'll probably be the 22nd borny all right sammy we'll keep an eye out for that enjoy the rest of the tournament thanks for your time thanks bud all right thanks guys great chatting yeah yeah you too bud thanks a lot that's sam cosentino hockey analyst here at sportsnet uh

good to have a good canada event sesh yeah get it off your chest it is and like i just like we thought put it there i just find that these games just meant so much more to me now that i know that we're entering in i feel what you're feeling because you you almost forget what it felt like when canada was in the gold medal games in 2012 there's nothing like it yeah like listen i if i had to choose between like a leafs cup and like gold medal forever for like i'm clearly gonna take leafs like i i understand but like it's a completely different animal yeah and i gotta tell you there was no i was so upset during that usa game yeah when they're just shooting holes in the net like just off the post like they're just firing it they're yelling at the canada way to go cowboy like i'm like I have to turn this off. I am so upset by this. Yeah. And we are a month away from the senior men's national level of this exact experience.

Yeah. Where, I mean, we still have a really good team. And it's like, it's not a crisis in hockey Canada. Like, it's not a crisis right now in terms of who we have. Like, you look at our roster, and I don't think you can love a roster more than what we have right now and what we're going to be sending to right montreal and boston no idea i think that's where it is yeah so i'm not worried about that but like it's it's starting to get a little bit scary it is it is i said 2012 i think 2014 was the last gold medal game was it not yes

and they beat sweden in the final and it was a was when Nicholas Backstrom got dinged, I think the day of or the morning of, that he was on some weird, it wasn't even like juice, but it was like, so he couldn't play in the game. We beat them 3-0. It wasn't even close. But the game before that, they beat USA. The 2002 game?

No, in that tournament in 2014, the most boring hockey tournament of all time, where Mike Babcock's like, no chances. We're just going to have the puck the entire time. They beat USA 1-0 in the semifinal game. Jamie Benn tipped off of a Corey Perry pass, I think, into the middle. I'm glad we have your photographic hockey memory. It was the most dominant 1-0 game of all time.

But some of my formative moments and most important things to me that I look back on a sports fan and a lot of it has to do with the leaf fan because they haven't given me a lot right but it's been these big hockey canada moments golden goal golden goal to me the dummy through the legs 2002 is always more important than 2010 and that's a maybe not an unpopular opinion like the singular moment of having the overtime winner vancouver set the gold medals record in Canada all that stuff but like after 50 years Lemieux the sort of um turbulence that Gretzky went through where he was like he ran that team and he was taking a beating for it it's a crock of crap and then like in front of that like the

whole stuff like that was such a formative time for me and such hit me at the perfect age but yeah i mean i cocky canada and this this sort of best on best it's ridiculous how long we've gone without it so you're gonna be excited nervous all that and how are you gonna feel when austin matthews tweaks his back in the semi-final against canada can't play uh the second and third period probably not the best i would it's funny i you know we don't want to talk about the least too much in the national the second and third period? Probably not the best. Not the best, though. I would... It's funny. You know, we don't want to talk about the Leafs too much in the national show,

but, like, he definitely really wants to go. You know, I was thinking... Like, it's his first chance. It's his first chance. Yeah. He's also not just American. They're a proud, patriotic family. Yes.

Like, his family is very... He's extremely American. Yes. Like his family is a very. He's a USA. Extremely American. Yes. And he wants to play for America. And like, I'm sure he's got all the relationships with all the guys there. And he's been looking forward to it a lot.

Part of the program, right? Yeah. He wants to, he really wants to do it. So, uh, game time,

game time. All right. It's game time presented by bet. Three, six, five. Visit the app, play the songs and find out why it's ever ordinary.

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Holy smokes. Multi-talented. A few games on the ice tonight. Ottawa Senators back in action on the second half of back-to-back after their captain called them embarrassing last night. And they weren't. I thought that was really harsh. They had a couple of nice goals, playing a pretty good team on the road.

I didn't think it was that bad. buddy and it's a new standard in ottawa i guess it's like they just they're trying to win here now uh they are minus 105 in st louis uh not a bad spot for me for the ottawa senators they feel like they're kind of actually a good team now st louis blues has been decent recently too yeah the montgomery blues are okay and the addition to camp flower i kind of wonder if the Winter Classic will be a turning point for them. Like, they, when you don't trade for Cam Fowler and go, we're tanking.

They're trying to win hockey games. They're a real team. And it was fascinating when we had Doug Armstrong on our show, however long ago that was, and he was like, yeah, we're just, you know, like, we're trying to get a bunch of guys that are this age,

which is kind of weird with Fowler because he's not in that group. He's a little bit older, but they always just seem to figure out these these defensemen that they bring in the guys i love the idea that they didn't just tank out they got five first round picks coming yeah and they're being competitive while they wait for these guys and i love the idea that they're trying to set a culture of we're trying to win we're at the blackhawks so the other canadian team a couple couple other Canadian teams in action tonight.

This one, to me, jumps off the page. The Nashville Predators are in Vancouver to take on the Vancouver Canucks on the second half of back-to-back, obviously, for the Vancouver Canucks, who lost to Atrodemko last night to weird, not looking. He's goalie Matthews, by the way. In terms of, like, you have no idea what's going on with his injuries. You're terrified every game. The Vancouver Canucks are plus 165 on home ice against the,

against the Nashville Predators. It's not that the Canucks are plus 165. It's that the Canucks minus Pedersen, minus Hughes, minus Demko, minus Rona. I understand all this, but Nashville is horrendous. I guess Vancouver's not very good at home i guess that number is kind of correct but that does jump off the page to me still miss a trick and the last thing i'll bring up the red hot montreal canadians in chicago tonight to take on the

blackhawks montreal canadians like actually kind of sniffing around they're 500 they're three points back of a player yes uh and they are minus 140 tonight in in Chicago to take on the woeful Blackhawks. Holy crap, that winter classic. That is... They got some public scolding from their GM and they're embarrassed.

Hey, here's an idea. Try to win games? Don't put bad teams in a big event. Like, what did you expect? Like, I know you're trying to get Bedard in there, but just like wait

until they're half decent? I will say, the NHL made their bed and was like, we don't want to lay in that. It's like, you go lay there lay in that it's like you go lay there it's like days yeah both these teams aren't great everyone's gonna watch that team stink it'd be bad for 60 minutes like it wasn't even close they got run off the out of the rank a pretty

good team yeah yeah absolutely fed it to them so uh and that's it so that's uh all i'm bringing up for the canadian teams and that was game time presented by bet 365 visit the app for latest odds and find out why it's ever ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. All right. This is a reminder to text us at 590-590.

Sammy and I are going to take some of those and answer some questions after the break. We might talk a little bit about the avalanche and their insanity. Text, text, text. Text, text. 590-590-590, text. And we will see you in a few minutes

after these messages. Teeing up the biggest games of the night, it's the Fan Pre Game with Ailish Forfar and Justin Cuthbert. Weekdays at 6 p.m. on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, The Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. One of my favorite things is text arguing with David Amber. He's saying the last best on best is World Cup of Hockey 2016.

You're right. He's right. But I'm saying he's not right. It's not best on best when some of your best play for a different team. Yeah, it's true, actually. Connor McDavid's not on Canada. It's not our best. You want to hear something really dark that I was watching today?

Uh-oh. I was watching clips of that. It came up on my TikTok algorithm. It's like, North America was amazing. I'm watching Matthews, and I'm like, boy, he's skating well. Didn't look like that this year. No. That was a long time ago.

He's a young man. He was probably 185 pounds at that point or something. He was flying. Mcid and him on the same line they're going down the ice they're going totally like skating the same speed i'm like geez yeah that was awesome he's a tank now yeah um this hour of kipper and born is brought to you by bet 365 who we're very grateful for um one of the fascinating things last night is watching the colorado avalanche down a couple of goals to the Buffalo Sabres. They end up winning a thrilling hockey game. Kel McCarr, freak.

Yeah, that goal was ridiculous. Ridiculous. He's amazing. And then Taves with the OT winner. But what really stood out was there was a strange goal. Zach Benson on Buffalo, kind of, you know, he's tiny. He's young. He's 19.

Also eligible for Team Canada, by the way. Yes. With Celebrini and Bernard. But he's got a little bit of, like, pestiness to him. So he got taken into Mackenzie Blackwood and fell on him. He's on my watch list of guys who are accidentally on purpose guys. Oh, interesting. I like that.

Okay. So anyway, he gets taken and he falls on blackwood's ankle and he goes down blackwood's rolling around like in his net looking up at the rafters writhing and pain writhing and the ref will not blow it dead pucks in the corner there's no reason they can't and then buffalo grabs the puck benson grabs it or is it not yes it was again comes around the ref gets out of his way stands on the back of the net, Benson tucks it into the net, and it counts. Yeah, so a couple things on this. Benson, you mentioned about having that weird little,

you know, competitiveness kind of gritty. He does, like, a selly like they won. Oh, yeah. Game seven of a playoff series. Helms it out. It's like, the goalie's literally lying on the ice in pain because of what you did. And immediately someone came over to him.

They tried to fight him, yeah. Immediately tried to fight him, and I would have done the same thing would have pissed me off so much they're like the commentators like benson's trying to get at sam jerns like no he isn't so i it's a weird one for me because you obviously should have blown it dead colorado had the puck somewhere in that corner uh andrew i think we had the clip of uh ben are talking about this and i'm pretty sure i beeped it, so let's play this here. The referee said it wasn't blown because we put their guy into Scott. I said I don't give a ****.

He's hurt. They're standing there. He's sitting there. He's hurt. He's hurt. They're standing there. He's sitting there. He's hurt. Blow the whistle. If the puck's in the net front still and they were hacking away at it and it goes in, I'd say fine. But as soon as the puck squirts to the corner, they got to blow dead.

They do it all the time for regular players because of player safety. The rule would state that we have to touch it, but they don't follow that rule. They never follow that rule. So I cut that at however long that was. He literally went on for three minutes. It's an 11-minute presser, I think. He was going off on this.

Yeah. And I honestly think rightfully so because he's right. I think you have to touch it. Like, I think that is sort of, but it's one of the most unwritten rules. Like, you have the goaltender lying in his own net, writhing in pain. That's just an obvious blow at death. Yeah, and safety is the best point. And they do.

And what happened with McCabe? They do blow it down. When did McCabe get bonked in the head? Like, remember they took the slap shot off the head and then he missed what four or five games yeah on that situation they immediately blew it oh that's bad like and everyone goes of course yeah yeah yeah like and it happens all the time they didn't have to do it for all of recman lars when he got hit in the knee last night and he was hobbling around a little bit if you can stand up i think it's fine but yeah i that was one of the stranger ones to me and bednar who is one of

the more sort of dry, understated coaches, I really enjoyed listening to him talk to him. Like, I really wish we just played the whole thing. It was amazing. Honestly, though, Bednar seems like he just, like, is on ketamine or something. I was like, do you have no emotions? But he was fired up about that.

So that's must-watch stuff. So we do have other clips and stuff, but I think we should get to some text if we i'm just i'm uh while you're trying to produce and host the same time let's let's see here okay this is more about a physical ah no it's not very good um rumors of taves to the jets is very interesting taves replacing domestikov on the second line could be a huge boost for the Jets. By the way, this is Jonathan Taves.

Even at 80% level of 2022, Taves would be a big step up from Nemestikov. Ehlers is having a great season, but he would need a better center to play with.

This jumped out to me. Because, yeah, tee it up. If you miss our first hour, there's a recent quote from Jonathan Taves, that

Jonathan Taves, who apparently in GQ, who hour there's a a recent quote from jonathan jonathan taves that jonathan tase taves um who apparently in gq who said that he would be open to considering a return to the nhl he's been on a healing journey i know he recently tweeted out yeah uh you know his he went to india for some time trying to get better yeah and now seems better enough that he wants to try to return. So Frank Cerevelli, hearing that this morning on his show, mentioned that three interested parties might be the Leafs, the Winnipeg Jets, where he's from, and the Colorado Avalanche. I think we need to pump the absolute brakes here. You do.

The second line of the Winnipeg. They're the best team. First place team. I appreciate you texting, but they're the best team first place team sorry like i appreciate you texting yeah but they're the best team in the league like they're not you know like i domestic of sure but like domestic of right now versus a guy that hasn't played hockey and literally since the year 2022 yeah just it's a really really exciting name yeah jonathan taves is a guy that's like one of the best players this generation multiple cops Multiple Cups, gold medals, all this stuff.

We know the resume with him. NHL is a pretty quick league. Yes. Fast league. Just pump the brakes with this. But here's the thing with Jonathan Tate. Nobody in the NHL or in the last 10 years more than him, some guys as much as him,

maybe Bergeron, Kopitar, whatever. No one knows where to be more than him. This is fair. 100% fair. It's like, you know, Mike Babcock used to say, ah, he knows where to stand. And this guy knows where to be and has a conscience. So even if he's not as fast or he's not as dynamic,

you can count on him defensively to make the right decisions and then build. And so could a team, maybe it's the jets on their fourth line for cheap. I don't think it's the Leafs. He's not going to come try to high profile, you know, rejuvenate a career under this spotlight. It goes bad here.

And it's like, he totally barbecues his like reputation. It's not a good thing. No Colorado. Maybe though. I can see that too. Chance to win a cup chance to be competitive, but he,

yeah, I mean, he's a fascinating name as we, he has to be on a roster by March 7th to be competitive. But he, yeah, I mean, he's a fascinating name. He has to be on a roster by March 7th to be eligible to participate in the playoffs. So I can see the Jets. The Jets makes so much sense. He's a Manitoba boy.

Yeah, well, we've gone two hours, I'm sorry, an hour and 46 minutes without mentioning the Vancouver Canucks. And that's about that now. Which is insanity and poor hosting. In your opinion, who is easier to replace in Vancouver, Miller or Petey? Understanding that it's difficult to replace either

for what they bring. In my opinion, Petey, but curious on your thoughts, Jason B. from Vancouver. Thanks, Jason. Your thoughts, Barney. Well, I think it fundamentally depends on whether you believe that someone of Elias Pettersson's skill set

can become a different style. Like, can he take on a mentality different than the one he has? Yeah. Because he is the more talented elite athlete. He can do things few people can do. He's Willie Nylander. Yeah. But we love guys like Brady Kachuk.

He's not? No. He's better? Not as good? I don't think he's as good as Willie Nylander. All right. On his best day, Willie Nylander is better than Pettersen. I think it's close, but I think Pedersen. But that mentality...

Willie is never... Sorry, Vancouver. Willie is never going to have Nathan McKinnon's absolute passion hit you with a helmet and eat chickpea pasta. He's never going to have it. He's always going to be Willie. Willie's going to be Willie until his career ends and then after his career.

So I might say Miller's tough door to place because he's a 100-point guy at his best too, except he's a competitive psychopath, which you kind of have to be to win. Yeah. It's funny. And he's cheaper. He's cheaper. I'm really concerned from what I've seen from Patterson. Because the first few years, like when he was really going,

I was like, oh, my God. This guy is undeniably great. He's Pavadatsu. Yeah, he's the two-way stud. But he can also hit. He's got that shot. The reverse hit, and he seemed a little great. And it just has gone away. And pretty much, and the terrifying thing is,

pretty much since like the day he signed that contract, it's never really been the same. Right. Which is terrifying. And I think most people listening to Vancouver would agree with me. But people still seem to side with him there. JT Miller, I almost equate him to, I don't know, like a Gallant type coach or like maybe a Laviolette. He wears thin after a while. You send him into a new room and it's like he fires everybody up

and like he scores a bunch and he's red hot. Yeah. And then it's like after two years of like, oh my God. He's still doing it. I can't live like this. I can't do this. So like maybe once, because look how good Pedersen was immediately when JT Miller had his leave.

I think he had like 12 points in seven games and then went pointless the second he came back. Maybe you unlock Pedersen and then it's like if you trade Miller. But if you trade Pedersen, he goes in. There's more risk, I think, in trading Pedersen than there is in trading JT Miller. Yeah. That's how I would. But I think it's harder to replace the competitiveness of jt miller yeah pedersen's just a different dude and you remember like the heat that dougie

hamilton got because he liked to go to a museum i know that was kind of but like you know people over blew that specific thing but he did kind of he's a different guy a little bit and pedersen is that and i don't know tough tough to replace the elite talents, but you sure like the more passionate guys. Boys, do you really believe that those two kneeing penalties in Canada were penalties from nameless texters? I love this. So I was working the Leafs game. I wasn't all eyes on this.

I did see both hits. Yeah. When you charge directly at someone, you take a real risk. You do. You know, when they sidestep and get out of that lane and you don't want to embarrass yourself and you're kind of making sure

I get as much of this guy as I can, you extend pieces of your body forward to hit them before it gets bad, before he's too far out of the lane that you clip him. No one got clipped, so I didn't think there was anything that should have been a major,

but I think they're both penalties. I agree. That's where I stand. I thought the first one, when I first reacted,'t think there was anything that should have been a major but i think they're both penalties i agree that's where i stand i thought the first one when i first reaction i thought it was a major i thought they maybe made the right call but now that i've seen more replays it's just so fast yeah it's just so fast and the second one it was gibson it's like i don't know if we need to be going oh seven enough in the last two minutes of a hockey game yeah like you can stick check them there. Like, you're in good position. You don't need to go in there and try to, like, listen,

I like them throwing the weight around, but pick your spots a little bit. Everyone's amped up and wants to kill the guy. Yes, I get it. There's not a coach or a skills instructor who will say, how do you take care of this guy defensively? Go right at him. Like, no, it's all angles and stick position.

And you look at some of these great defensive players, none of it is charge at a guy in the neutral zone and yeah they paid a price the penalties thing were just i mean that falls on the coaching staff at the end of the day it does like you can't take 11 penalties in one game no when's the last time a hockey team took 11 penalties in a game i can't i have you that's a full period of hockey in the box. The intensity and the pressure became so evident with that. Yes. It showed itself in that the guys weren't calm

and within themselves and it was all this straight line. They were just trying to do too much. Okay, this is a self-serving text so I'm going to do it anyway. This is from my boy Jeremy and Meaford, long-time texter. Bought my sister, brother-in-law, niece, and nephew all tickets to the attack game next Wednesday. Forgot about the juniors when I bought them

and was bummed that we wouldn't see Carter Harton, Carter, sorry, Carter George and Nat. Maybe we'll see him after all, Jeremy. So there you go. Yeah. And I just quickly wanted to give a shout out to Carter George, my hometown attack starting goalie. Thought he was very good in the tournament.

Didn't think he was a reason they lost. Yeah. and i hope he's holding his head high because it's hard being the goalie for team canada you know horribly hard so here you go here you go carter when you're a young kid watching a junior hockey team the connection you form with these guys is insane and you know what stood out to me today is sammy cause talking about chris mallette you know he's a coach of the colonna rockets he played for He played for the Rockets when I was a young boy. Oh, wow. And we ended up skating instructors at the Okanagan Hockey School together.

But when I was a kid, the Rockets were tough, and they fought. Yeah. And they had Todd Fedorek and Chris Millett. He used to take his bucket off. Todd Fedorek. Oh, buddy, these Kelowna teams, you know, five-hour games. But Millett used to take his helmet off, spin it,

and he had this long black hair and do the big throwback before his fights. Oh, my God. I mean, you know, to me. Coolest guy on earth. Just literally. Number one coolest guy. He's a James Dean of my era level cool.

And so, for me, watching him now, you know, have like an adult career. Yeah. It's, well, not career. I mean, he's, you know, tracking to be an NHL coach one day. So, really happy for him and the Kelowna Rockets. Great program there. That's really exciting. Yeah.

Really cool stuff. Did you see that? Islanders guy, quickly before you go. I saw there was a, I forget the reporter. I don't have it in front of me. Stephen Rossner? Yes. Reporting that the Canucks are really interested in Dobson.

And there was like the trade. Was it the Pedersen and Dobson, Sezekis and Anvil? The first name, if I'm a Canucks fan, the first hypothetical trade that came up a Canucks fan, the first, you know, hypothetical trade that came up that would make me go, sorry, what?

I'll listen to that one. Is a 24-year-old right-hand top pair guy and Noah Dobson. Yeah, how would you like Hughes and Dobson on your blue line for the next 10 years? Hughes, Dobson, Hronik, like you're building something

really good there. Yeah, you got to take Pierre Engel though. No. But as someone who follows the Isles, I'm like, you can't something really good there. Yeah. You got to take Pierre Engvall though. No, I also not. But as someone who follows the aisles, I'm like, you can't trade the good guys. No,

it's like, that's the last guy you should be training. Yeah. Get rid of Engvall and the rest of the crew. All right. Well, that's, that's all we got for today.

Sammy, what do you got going on this weekend? Busy weekend. Leafs back to back. Hey, I'm taking the national spotlight here. Subscribe to Leafs Talk. Yes.

Me and JD after every show. Grinding on the weekend. Back-to-back. Let's go here. Subscribe. Watch. It's really good. I'll be there in playoffs, too.

Big thanks to Sam Coz for joining us. Thanks to JD Bunkus. Subscribe to the JD Bunkus podcast as well. JD Bunkus podcast. Yeah, and it's been Real Kipper Kipper and Bourne we'll see you

Monday