Real Kyper & Bourne - Coast-to-Coast with Doug MacLean + NHL Injury Update

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne bring back former NHL president and general manager Doug MacLean (1:26) to chat about which Canadian franchise had the best offseasons, the uncertainty around the Flames' rebuild, if the Canucks can leapfrog over the Oilers in the Pacific Division and his perspective of Jeremy Swayman's contract fallout with the Boston Bruins. Then, sports orthopedic surgeon Dr. Jason Smith (31:38) jumps on to discuss the mystery behind Thatcher Demko's rare muscle injury, how much toll a body takes in hockey versus other sports and how carefully Patrik Laine needs to rehab his MCL injury.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliate.

It's the National Hour on Sportsnet. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Sportsnet 590, The Fan. Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver. Sportsnet 960 in calgary sour real kipper and born brought to you by bet 365 welcome in it's off the rails friday which means momentarily we will be joined by former nhl president gm head coach author of draft day how to pick winners or get left behind probably Probably more left behind. We're done promoting that book.

Are we? Doesn't exist this year. Sorry, Doug. The history is another one. Paperback or something. He'll push something else. He'll push a condo. Great.

Something's coming. I'm fine. We'll sell whatever condo he needs. Doug McClain momentarily. And then later on in the hour, we're going to welcome in a leading orthopedic surgeon. Dr. Jasonith will get into demko situation patrick liney situation or you know and by no means am i introducing him to for us to tell us what's wrong with those guys because he's not their doctor and right you know but we

can certainly speculate on challenges that they might have moving forward, all these athletes. So I look forward to welcoming in Dr. Jason Smith, one guy that often plays a doctor on TV but isn't. Maybe he has a doctor in something. Probably an honorary one from, isn't he a teacher somewhere now? Let's welcome in what we think and hope is a more cheerful Doug McClain because he's been off for many months of our show. What are you under, a heat lamp? What's going on?

Oh, look at that. We got no audio. We got no audio. But it is good to see him. He looks good. How's that? Hey, there he is. There's your audio.

What's happening? What's going on? You know what? It's just a sunny, sunny he is. There's your audio. What's happening? What's going on? You know what? It's just a sunny, sunny day here, and I just can't. You know, it's summer in PEI, you know? You look like you've been bobbing for french fries. No, you know, I'm not red at all. I was out doing a lot of yard work today, getting things ready, getting things shut down.

We're heading to Italy on Wednesday. There it is. On a hike. You're heading to Italy on Wednesday. There it is. On a hiking trip to Portugal. Portugal, I was close. So is this like a bonus? Just a minute. Oh, my God. Hold on.

Is this like a bonus segment for us? Because we're not – or are we going to get you in Italy? No, you're not getting me in Italy. We're going to be on a hiking trip in tuscany and if you if i if i see kiprios or born's name oh well i don't have born in my contact i don't have to worry about him calling me jason born so are you refreshed are you um are you less crusty than maybe uh a ago? You know what? I always find when the NHL season starts, I get crusty.

You know, and it just, because I have to watch games. And I really don't want to do that anymore. But the problem with this show, when I do it, is I have to watch games. Because I've got to bring some knowledge, you know. So that's what I'm really most upset about. So anyway, it's all right. You must be fired up about our preseason topic,

which has been Nick Robertson. We've really enjoyed talking about him. Are you, you want another year talking about Nick Robertson? Well, obviously he's a, he's a star right now. I mean,

he might be the, he might be the golden nugget to lead them to the Stanley Cup. He may be the Eddie Litsenberger from the 65-67 Leafs. I compare him to Eddie Litsenberger, too, for sure. Great, great comparison. So if we were to go across the country, who's in Canada? Who's made the most? Oh, just a minute.

They're comparing him to Dave Keon from what I'm reading. So, you know. Oh, you're in fine form already. That's the name I know. Who do you like? Who do you like across the board? Who had the best summer in your opinion? Edmonton ready to go back and win one more game.

What do you see from coast to coast right now? And obviously we'll include your Nick Robertson, Toronto Maple Leafs. Well, look, well, let's start. I'll just give you my rankings for the Pacific, okay? And this may surprise you a little bit, but I've got Vancouver finishing in first in the Pacific. I've got them ahead of Edmonton. Is that with Demco?

That's with Demco. That's with Demco. So I've got in the, in the Pacific, I've got Vancouver, Edmonton, Vegas, LA, Seattle, Anaheim, Calgary, San Jose. That's my rankings for the Pacific and you know, Vancouver, Edmonton. I, like I, I I'm, I'm listening Pacific. And, you know, Vancouver Edmonton, like, I'm listening to Tuckett, you know, the way he's carrying himself. I haven't heard much of Knobloch. You know, Skinner, Demko, I give them an edge.

I know Skinner had a great playoff, but I'm giving Demko the edge as long as he's healthy, and it's scaring me, this injury. Like, you just don't know what it is. But I think the U's on the back end, I think Pedersen's going to be a lot better, JT Miller. I just, I think Vancouver is going to really, really challenge. I really do. So you have Calgary really low there just ahead of San Jose.

They're doing, they didn't want to call it a rebuild. They're obviously doing a rebuild. What do you think's going on there? What sort of timeline are they looking at? What should Flames fans be looking for this year? That's frightening. Is it? Look, I just don't think, I mean, look, I know they're in a rebuild,

but I just did a show in San Jose this afternoon and they were bragging about the work that that San Jose has done and and the great young players and that they're rated with the best prospects for the seven years I was there. And they have won one playoff round since. Like, having prospects is one thing, but winning is another thing. You know, I've got these teams that have all these great prospects as the bottom feeders in the league because you've got to get quality veterans around them. And Calgary are, I know it's a tough rebuild. I looked today. Cadry is their number one centerman.

Number one centerman. Yeah. And I love Cadry. But I don't have them as a number one center on a playoff team, you know. So I think it's going to be a tough year there. I think the next few years, in all honesty, is just to build something up towards a new building. What is that?

Two and a half, three years? But that's, yeah, it's going to take some time. It's going to take some time. I love the coach. I think they've got a real good, solid coach there. I love Conroy. I think they've got a chance to turn it around and do good work there. And it's a great city.

The building is going to be a great positive for the franchise moving forward. I just think they're going to be in for a pretty tough year. So why do you have Vancouver ahead of Edmonton? Does that include Vancouver in the playoffs coming out of it against Edmonton. Why aren't you excited about Edmonton? Everybody thinks that they're going to win it this year. You asked me for my regular season picks. You didn't ask me for my playoff picks.

You've got to be more clear on what my assignment is. Okay, so what is the focus of Edmonton then? It's not to win the division then, apparently, out of you. I think you're going to have Vancouver and Edmonton in the final in the West. And I think it's going to be, I really think it's going to be a dogfight. You know, unless Dallas can come back as strong as they were. And you like Dallas, you know, Colorado, you know, where's Landis Gog?

Is he going to be back at any time? You know, I mean, with Makar there, you can't underestimate them. But again, it comes back to goaltending for them, for me. So I just think Vancouver with Hughes and Peders peterson i've said it for four years i think they're going to be superstars in the league peterson had a drop off last year i think he and talk it'll be more on the same page this year i think it you know it was probably a good learning experience for peterson and a good learning experience for talk it in dealing with peterson and i i think i i just think they think they look like a pretty solid team.

And don't get me wrong, I love Edmonton too. You can never go against Edmonton with Dreisaitl and McDavid, but I hope Skinner comes back and takes a big step. He's capable of it. It's going to be a dogfight between those two teams. I think it's going to be a really, really great, great series between those two teams in the regular season. They hate each other too, which is really good. The Vancouver fans hate a lot of people.

Edmonton don't hate as many people, but they're close. So it'll be fun. For another year, are we going to sleep on Winnipeg? I've got Winnipeg second last. I've got them. Here's my central. Dallas, Colorado, Nashville, Minnesota, St. Louis, Utah, Winnipeg, Chicago. Wow.

Let me give you that again. Dallas, Colorado, Nashville, Minnie, St. Louis, Utah, Winnipeg, and Chicago. That's where I've got it. Do you disagree? Well, Hellebuck won't allow that. Hellebuck should relax in the regular season and get ready for the playoffs. Yeah, I know. He had a tough one.

He's had a tough bunch of them. I mean, this has been going on for a few years. You know, he's got to figure it out. He's a great goaltender. But I'm taking Dallas' goaltender ahead of him all day long. I like Nashville's ahead of him. And, you know, he's got to get it done in the playoffs. Yeah.

You know, they didn't manage to hang on to Monahan or to Foley. You know, they lost some pretty good players. You know, they're still quite a bit there after a year where they had 110 points last year or something. They had a lot of points last year. So that would be a pretty steep fall off. This is unrelated to the conversation we're having, but I can't help but wonder as we head into a new season,

have you talked to NHL teams? Doug, are you going to get back in to having, but I can't help but wonder as we head into a new season, have you talked to NHL teams? Doug, are you going to get back in to coach, to manage, to advise? Where is this coming from? Because Doug watches hockey, and Doug knows hockey, and it's surprising to me that Doug isn't involved in hockey. Is he going to scoop? This show has really helped my credibility,

I'll say that because you know i i walk into i walk into restaurants jill and i walked into this at the the charlottetown yacht club and i got people from vancouver you know saying oh man i love that kipper show when you're on it that seems to be the theme yeah listen the last job i interviewed for was buffalo they made it as an advisor role got even lindy rough phoned and put in a good word for me and he's back and i and anyway kevin decided to go in a different direction and not sure it's worked out that well no it's going great for them they've been terrible since so So, no, I'm retired. And, you know, we've got a department building under construction here this summer.

So I've been busy with that. And we've got a couple of subdivisions. I'm busy and I'm enjoying things. And, no, I'm not. I'm not going anywhere. Speaking of the Buffalo Sabres, they opened up the NHL season officially versus New Jersey. Just one. What's that?

Just don't let me interrupt you, but what I'm hoping is going to happen to me is that some of these things I do for free that somebody may step up and pay me for. Well, it ain't going to be us. We're going to put out a tip jar every day and see if people throw some nickels in. I'm still upset about that, but anyway, let's not go there.

Listen, the Sabres lost 4-1 in the first regular season game of the year and unfortunately kind of looked like what they left off with last year. How much pressure is Kevin Adams on or the rest of them in the East, at least in the Atlantic, with Ottawa, Montreal. Where do you see Buffalo shaping up here? Okay. Do you want me to give you my Atlantic? Yes.

I love the Atlantic. That's my lead into you. That's what makes me a great host. Now, I did this a week ago so i've got a i've got to redo it because i've got florida tampa bay boston toronto if boston don't get their goaltender sign swayman then toronto is ahead of them okay it's not it's not close for me buffalo ottawa detroit and montreal so that again florida tampa bay boston toronto and boston and toronto flipped if they don't figure it out with their with their nine million dollar goalie buffalo ottawa detroit and montreal like the pressure on buffalo ottawa and detroit

is over the top and marty saint. Louis gives the best post-game speeches of anybody I've ever heard. But he's got to win some games with that too. Doesn't have any players, Mac. I talked to a couple of NHL coaches and they said, oh my God, how good is he post-game, win or lose? But when's he going to win some games? So there's a ton of pressure on Buffalo, Ottawa, Detroit,

and not so much Montreal. For some reason, it doesn't seem to happen. Out of those four, who's closest? We know Detroit was closest to end last season. But out of those four, who do you like best? Buffalo should be closer because i really like their blue line it's a blue line that has a chance to really that's what you said today a great nhl blue line but they've got to come they've got to improve and they've you know so you know you got to

surround that blue line with still with great goaltending um And up front, they need the big guy to bounce back, you know, the big scorer. That's the bottom line. But Ottawa, I like Ottawa, but I just don't see them taking a step. I sent a note to Gary the other day and said, look, I've got you missing again, Bruce. I know it's going to be another long winter for you,

but I apologize, but I've got them out of the mix. Of course, he won't buy that, you know, or he won't run it. That's for damn sure. And Lauer stroked another big check to take some ownership out of Ottawa there. He needs some playoff gates here. Yeah, they've got to get it going. And, look, you love their nucleus. You know, you love the Kachuk Stutzel.

You know, he's got to smarten up a little bit for me. You know, he's getting a reputation around the league, and he's got to smarten up. I still think, well, you know, I just don't like the way he handles himself a lot of times on the ice. Bad decisions on the ice. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah so we'll see we'll see norris has got to be healthy for them um they've got a great group there but they've got to win they've got to win some games i watched

travis yesterday i was sort of chuckling watching travis when he was interviewing for the job he was the most jovial guy you could ever imagine. Back to himself. He was funny. Then I watched his presser yesterday and he was the most serious guy I've ever seen. Like, relax. You know, just relax and be yourselves. It's a lot of... That's what Marty St. Louis does and you give him crap on our

show. Make up your mind. No, I said he's great in the press conferences. He just has... It's got to translate to some wins. Well, that's what Travis knows. That's why he's great in the press conferences. He just has, it's got to translate to some wins. Well, that's what Travis knows. That's why he's the way he is. Last week it was, he's building a home for Laine. Not a house, he's building a home, you know?

Is that right? Are you watching the Montreal documentary? Is that, isn't there a Montreal documentary going on right now? Yeah, yeah, I think there is. Yeah, no, I didn't see that. I just saw that comment about line A. All right, listen, for a guy that's been in scenarios as a president and a GM, I want you to break down the Swayman situation in Boston. And, you know, I go almost, I don't want to say a flip-flop, but I can understand both sides,

if that is even possible, in terms of Swayman thinking when Ulmerk left, he had some leverage to go after a big contract. He avoids arbitration. This is my chance to get a big deal. And then you got the Boston side saying side saying hold on time out you're 25 we don't really know for sure there's not enough sample sizes here for us to make a big long eight year commitment and there seems to just be the standstill right now and then there's that public

perception out there because cam neely floated out 64 million like how do you see this thing as is and where is it going well look uh you know you and i talked about it and the fact they they didn't have them done and they moved all mark out of there was i i was i was shocked on that you know i was shocked that that happened you You know, you had last year to get them done. You move out a number one goaltender, and then all of a sudden Swayman has all kinds of leverage. He's played, what's he played, 79 games in the league. But here's the scary part for Boston.

You look at their, well, Bourne would know this because he's a metric, you know, he loves the analytics stuff. But just look at the shots on goal. And I'm not getting into the minutia of analytics, but they gave up a ton of scoring chances. They gave up a ton of shots. If it wasn't for Swayman last year, they don't even make the playoffs, guys. They don't make the playoffs.

That's how good he was last year. Not to mention he took a big step in the playoffs and kept them in the Toronto series, won them the Toronto series, and then almost won the Florida series. He's been their MVP.

But you've got a Florida or a Boston tradition there, and the ownership are tough. So I don't think we should blame Neely and Sweeney because the ownership has had a history of being unbelievably tough negotiators, tough negotiators, or forcing their general managers

to be tough negotiators. So we'll see. You know, look, I didn't like Lewis Gross and Neely. I didn't like that. If I'm the GM, that would really piss me off. You know, you, I didn't like Lewis Gross and Neely. I didn't like that. If I'm the GM, that would really piss me off. You know, you don't need your president going out there and causing this. Lewis Gross comes back and said they never got 64. Well, no, they were 200,000 below or something.

But they got to pay him. They got to get this guy done, guys, or they're not going to make the playoffs. That's how tough it is to make the playoffs. And if they don't get them done, Corpus Salo was one of the worst goaltenders in the NHL. Now, we all remember in Columbus when he was so great against Tampa Bay and he stood in his head and he looked like he was going to be a star. But last year, playing him with Ottawa, he's one of the worst goalies in the league.

They've got to get him done. And I'll be shocked if it's not done in the next few days i really will doug uh turn the page uh to a different team and get your thoughts on arbor jacki in preseason and is how do you feel about the aggression there's been jack eyes chasing around a leaf and beating him up and throwing hits on stutzla, or Stutzla as you call him. They play again tomorrow night, and I think Ottawa called somebody up who just, I don't know, might be a little tougher than. Oh, really?

That's the word. Yeah. Look, I felt bad for the kid, Paré or whatever, Cedric Padre. Yeah. I felt sorry for him. I didn't think it was an intentional shot. The kid's trying to make the team. He's got a superstar coming in one-on-one with him.

You never like a knee-on-knee. You never like it. But I didn't think – I thought it was way – a major overreaction, obviously by the fans in Montreal. But, you know, the big kid, I don't, I don't condone it, but I don't mind them going and protecting a teammate. And we, you know, we get criticized for that as being goons,

but I still think you've got to send a message. Did he send it in a fair way? Maybe not, but I like, I like what he brings to the table, the kid in the Montreal back. I'm not going to try to pronounce his name. But I like lots of things about this guy. I do. And I felt for the kid in Toronto. I really did.

And I felt for Laine. But, you know, that happens. So yesterday, Sammy asked me if I remembered the lineup of my first NHL game with the Washington Capitals. And I think I named all but maybe two guys. Yeah. I didn't name Bob Rouse. I missed Bob Rouse. I think he was on. I don't know if he played that game. How could you miss Rouser? He played for us in Detroit. I missed Bob Rouse. I think he was on.

I don't know if he played that game. How could you miss Rouse? He played for us in Detroit. I don't have it in front of me, but I have it. Okay. I don't have that. So my question to you and Sammy is, Sammy, do we know, do you have any idea who his roster was, his first NHL coaching game?

For the Florida Panthers on October 7th, 1995, a four, nothing lost to the New Jersey devils. I had the whole team in four, nothing lost. Yeah. Sammy,

you better look at the next five in a row after that. See how the record was. It was good. Was it? Yeah. Okay. So we lose four, nothing in Jersey.

I get on the plane. My first game coach in the NHL. I get on the plane, and Brian gets on. He's Brian Murray, and he just went by me on the plane and shook his head. That was awful, he said. I thought I was getting fired before we landed in South Florida. So then Sammy, pull out your pad there, buddy. Okay.

We won five in a row uh after that and if i'm not mistaken we were in first place at christmas because i happened to be named the all-star coach yep you got hot and then i think the next year i think i was in first place at christmas too okay i want to hear your roster do you how many guys, you should be able to name your lineup that night. Oh, you mean the whole lineup? Well, give me your first two lines. I'll have to go into my Hall of Fame room here, and I'm going to take you on a tour of that one of these days.

No, he's not. Do you remember who was your lineup? Brian Scruton, Dave Lowry. remember who was your lineup right brian scroodland dave lowry uh well i remember 90 percent of it 90 percent of it i will there was a couple of guys that sounds like 10 of it to me there was a there was a lot of guys i was trying to forget uh bob kadelsky bob kadelsky was a was uh on my team i don't know he probably didn't dress didn't start no uh marcel dion's younger brother was on my team. I don't know. He probably didn't dress. Didn't start, no. Marcel Dion's younger brother was on the team, but he didn't dress. Beezer?

Beezer was your goalie? Beezer was my goalie, and Beezer was he and Mark Fitzpatrick were my goaltenders. I don't know if they spoke all year. It wasn't a really tight group. Billy Smith was my goaltending coach. Oh, man.

Love Billy. Billy, when his contract came up, he wanted in his contract that he didn't have to go to the morning skates. He just wanted to show up for the games because he wanted to play golf in the morning. So I said, Billy, I wouldn't bring that up to Brian if I was you. I'd just go to the morning skate. I said, isn't that when you work with the backup goalie, the morning skates?

Anyway, we had a great group there. Billy Lindsey. I mean, it went on. Rob Needham, my erratic divorce. Now you're warming up. Oh, yeah, he's getting up. Now you're warming up. Rhett Warner, you know, Gordon Murphy, Paul Laws.

You know, I mean, it was just an amazing group of guys. It really was. It really was. Tommy Fitzgerald. Bunch of guys in the game. Johan Garpenloff, Ray Shepard. Well, we traded for Shepard into the season, but I remember every one of them. Not bad.

Hey, listen, it's like a bike coming on our show. You just got to get on it, and you just got to get the feel of it again. And you're not as red. Somehow, some way, you've taken, you know, you pulled the shade down or something. You're not as red as you did. Well, no, I pulled the shade. Jill told me to yell at me to pull the shade down. Well, terrific stuff.

Usually I do shows later at night, and I don't get the glare. So, like, I don't know if we can get the wide shot of Doug in wherever he is, but, you know, he used to put jerseys up for me, you know, years ago when I did The Real Kipper. And now is that a portrait of you fishing? No, you left the shot. Where are you going now? Lifestyles of the rich and famous here.

We're going to get a tour. This is great television. Okay. I love this place. Look at it, all wood walls. Wow. Look at this. For those of you that can't see, he's walking through his Taj Mahal hockey.

There's the team right there. Who's wearing the C there? Oh, Scroodlin. Scroodlin wearing the C? Great jersey. And then I'll show you the all-star pictures here. That's a picture of,

just a minute now. Okay. You got a picture of your dog, Doug? You start pulling out. See the grandkids. Anyway, I'll give you a tour sometime when I know how to work this. But all right. Well, great job.

And is that you fishing in the background? Did Jill do a portrait of you in the background of that guy right there with the hat? Is that you? No, that's a picture from Jill's dad who was a pharmacist, so we have that set up in memory of him. Awesome. Okay, pal. Well, listen. Way to put your foot

in your mouth, Kipper. Yeah, well, it's not the first time. Won't be the last with you on a Friday. Thanks for doing this, Mac. Thanks for having me on, guys. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Mac. Appreciate it. I'll be in Italy. Tell Sam I really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Mac. Appreciate it. Tell Sam I'm in Italy next week. And don't whatever.

Don't phone me. Can Jill be on? Will Jill do the show? I'm on a hiking trip, so I won't, I won't have a phone. Can we get Jill one show? Oh my God, that would be electric.

I would love to get Jill. Oh my God. I would be just like, as Jill said, as Jill said tonight, are you doing that show again this year? Tell her we're sorry.

Bye, Doug. Take care, guys. Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it. That is Doug McLean on Off the Rails Friday. Him taking on a house tour is about as off the rails as you can get. Quickly, before we go to break, I got to do game time. It's game time. Presented by Bet365 by bet 365 visit the app latest odds and find out why it's never ordinary at bet 365 must be 19 plus ontario only please play responsibly now i put this one in

there because this is a wild one that i found on there today uh you can bet on the opponent that alex ovechkin potentially breaks the goal record against. So he is minus 2,000 for it to not happen. So it's a favorite to not happen. He needs 42 goals to break the record, which is scarily close, very close. But then I was looking at the schedule, and it's into April, where I think it's halfway through April, the favorite is the Columbus Blue Jackets.

They play a home-and-home with the Columbus Blue Jackets on a weekend, a Saturday-Sunday against the Blue Jackets, and that's the favorite. And then after that, it goes to the New York Islanders at plus 2,500 and Carolina at plus 2,800, and then the Pittsburgh playing goods at plus 3,000, and it's all date-related in terms of when he's going to do it. So you can literally bet on anything, and that is a wild one for me. Give me a number.

Over this year? For his season. You were close last year. Yeah, I was. And then he got hot. What did you say? I said 27 last year, and he got 29 or something like that. I'll give him 24 this year.

24. And then the next year it's going to be 17, and he's going to need one going into the third year. And then the league's going to shut down for the CBA. He'll never get it. One can hope. I'm not sure if he's ever going to. He scored 31 goals last year.

I'm not sure if he's ever going to come off the ice this year. No. Empty netters galore. And they've got to win games for that. And the year before last year, he scored exactly 42. So in 21-22, he scored exactly 42. I'm flipping it. Give him 24.

And what did we say? He needs 42? He needs 42 to break, 41 to tie. 41 to tie. Yeah. Yeah. 30 safe, I think, with him. But it's slowing down.

Oh, yeah. It is really grinding. Which means some guys are still effective as they get older. Some guys are just... So you would bet on him to not get it this year. Oh, definitely. Okay. And now it's game time.

Presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Okay, let's take a quick break. When we come back,

Dr. Jason Smith, leading orthopedic surgeon we'll get some thoughts on thatcher demko and what he may be challenged with moving forward and various injuries around the league plus some news and notes including a new captain with the utah hockey club that more when we return to Real Kipper and Born. Hey, it's Ailish Forfar. And I'm Justin Cuthbert. Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of

the night. It's the Fan Pre-Game. 6pm weekdays on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, The Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. final hour nick kiprios justin bourne sammy mckee this hour real kipper and born brought to you by bet 365 all right let's bring him in dr jason smith, leading orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries and procedures. Now, earlier this week, Doc, I tried to explain to these guys about this movie. I hope you're familiar with Spies Like Us. Doctor? Doctor? Doctor? Doctor? Doctor? Doctor? We're going to just start Introducing these

Doctor So like Perfect Just amuse me for one second here Just Let's try to recreate that So I'll go You go

And then Justin goes And then you go And then Sammy goes And then you go Okay Doctor Doctor Doctor

Doctor Doctor Doctor Are you happy? That was awesome And doctor And doctor That's awesome

Alright we're here Bunch of doctors How are you? Are you good? We got you? Did we drop you? Yeah I can hear you Can you hear me?

So Doc For those of you that That don't know That you've been involved with orthopedic surgery around professional athletes for a long time, you even got to work with James Andrew, the famous James Andrew out of Alabama with the likes of Bo Jackson.

So, I mean, you're very comfortable around what you see on a daily basis, what we see in terms of injuries throughout the National Hockey League. So great to have you on. We're going to get into a few players. Not that you're their doctor or that you know what they're going through, but we can generally maybe talk about injuries and how athletes or teams either manage them or address them. So we will get into that but

just a little background for for those that don't know uh you you played professional hockey you were drafted by the calgary flames in the fourth round if i'm not mistaken in 1993 and it didn't work out you become an orthopedic surgeon if If it didn't work out for me, I'm flipping burgers at Johnny's on Victoria Park. Like, how does that happen, first of all? You know, I always tell kids, you got to have a plan B. You do. You know, but you grow up without a plan B. You grow up, you're going to be a hockey player.

You don't really think of a plan B, but you know, I got lucky. I got the opportunity to play hockey at Princeton. And so for me making that pivot, you know, from playing pro hockey, I was in St. John playing with the flames there and got myself a bunch of concussions. And looking back on it, I was like, okay, you know, am I going to keep this going? Am I going to keep grinding, trying to mess with my noodle?

Or am I going to pivot? And I was lucky. I could pivot. I had a degree. And I went back to medical school. So for me, it wasn't as hard as, you know, some of the guys that maybe don't have a plan B, like you're saying. So knees, shoulders, hockey-specific, knees, shoulders, for goalies hips as well we've seen a couple of big ones here but i want to start with demko in vancouver because uh he quietly disappeared

in the first round against nashville and and nobody was really sure what he was dealing with. He doesn't come back. And then, lo and behold, he's not even ready in October. Now, I think the Vancouver province had mentioned that there's an issue with this popliteus muscle. Yeah, popliteus. Popliteus. Okay, I've been around the game a long time. I've had major surgery.

I've never heard of this before. That's me. So is this significant enough that it could be the issue here, the complete issue? Yeah, so, I mean, first off, right, none of these things happen in isolation. So they'll throw you a little nugget. You know, it was the popliteus which in itself it's a little muscle

in the back of the knee it helps control rotation and guys will injure this and it'll heal but it also really contributes to the whole rotational part of the knee you know the knee is not a simple hinge joint it translates it rotates and for a goalie who's always going down, up, butterfly, the rotation is a pretty big part of it. So the popliteus sits right in the back of the knee and helps control rotation. So most of the time in sports, you hear an isolated popliteus injury, you're thinking, you know, four to six weeks, it's kind of a muscle, it can heal, no big deal. But when you put this on a goaltender who has to play into butterfly position now you start thinking okay this is significant but like i said

these things don't happen in isolation i i wonder what else is going on you know with his knee and you know you had valley on and he was saying about you know a second knee scope that we didn't even know about. And then he had a knee scope for an unrelated reason this summer. So you don't just think about his popliteus. You think about, you know, there's a lot going on with his knee. And that's what's kind of concerning is that, you know, two surgeries, one major injury with a goalie that lives in the butterfly position. That's kind of the context that makes me worry a little bit more than just there's a rare popliteus. And so can an injury like that ever get right? Can it heal?

Is it possible or is that something that once there's been damage there, it's always going to be a little compromised? No, you know, they do heal. And a popliteus in isolation can definitely heal. You know, I'll take ligaments over cartilage any day, you know, ligament strains, ligament tears, these kinds of things, you know, they can heal, they can be reconstructed and guys can get back to normal. So you got to be optimistic with Demko on that.

You got to be optimistic that he's just, you know, taking his time because you know, this is the time of year to take your time. This is the time of year not to push it. But like I said, I just wonder, is there more going on with this guy's knee than just a little popliteus injury? Well, we've seen Landis Codd now looking at

almost being out of the game, what, a year and a half, two years. There's a lot going on. Some have suggested to me a a rebuild of some dynamic um you know in terms of maybe a cartilage issue uh you know is is there a chance that this guy you know being off this long and and giving it another whirl, is there a chance that he can come back? You know, these are Hail Marys, honestly. These big cartilage replacements, like they're great procedures

if you're going to try to walk the golf course and go walk your dog. You know, you can do these big replacements, big chunks of cartilage and menisci and things. But you're replacing a big chunk of cartilage and menisci and things but you're replacing a big chunk of cartilage in a guy in his 30s and you're asking him to go play professional hockey on it like honestly you think about something like this as a coin flip you know if anybody can do it these guys can their health their nutrition everything else they're adding inside the knee you know they're doing so much more than the average person can do.

So, you know, he might surprise us and turn out and, you know, have a great season and feel awesome. But you wonder, you know, can he take the grind of the season? Can he take the workload? Can you play 82 games? Colorado, can you play for another two, three months in the playoffs? And that's where I worry about cartilage. When you're through a ligament injury, I think you're through it.

When you're through a cartilage injury, it's always with you. That stays with you forever. And that's what worries me. Where's the force, the torque, I don't know what you want, in hockey compared to other sports? Is it actually easier being on skates or, you know, once you're battling in the corners, man, it's tremendous stress. Yeah, so the skating stride is actually not that hard on the knee. And it's actually great for hockey players that just the daily workload of skating and practicing isn't that hard.

The problem is, is that they got to go battle on the board. So they're, they got guys leaning on it in all directions and pushing on it in all directions. And that's where the wear and tear comes from is they're having to grind, you know, get the puck out of the corner, get hit,

fall down. It's not like basketball where you're just, you know, you're running up and down and you're fighting, but I mean, you're, you're, you're falling, you're up and down, you got guys crashing on you, you're getting hit against the boards. That's what worries me with hockey.

Not so much the skating, but the battling. Yeah. So one of the guys, you know, we do the Leafs hour for the first hour, and you're talking about how cartilage issues seem worse. Yanni Hockenpah signed a two-year deal, or he said he did, and then it was just one year, and the words we're hearing are, and I quote, bone on bone. I don't even know what that means or what bone would be on what bone,

but it doesn't sound good, Doc. And it's not us eating a medium-rare tomahawk either, right? Yeah, so bone on bone, what they're talking about is, you know, at the end of your bones on your joint, you've got this beautiful layer of cartilage that's nice and smooth and you walk and it doesn't grind and click and cartilage doesn't have nerve fibers. So you're walking, you're running, you play your sports, you're not feeling your joint. But as soon as you wear that cartilage away, now you have exposed bone. Bone has nerve fibers. Bone has vessels, bone bleeds. So you're talking a whole different level. So once that cartilage is wore away, that you have exposed

bone, that's the end stage of arthritis. That's when guys start talking joint replacements and these kinds of things. Now, could it be a couple millimeters that's exposed of bone on bone? Or is this a broad area? Like, we're never going to know. But you hear bone-on-bone, like, man, this guy better be tough because he's going to have pain every day. So what is realistic then? Like, 40 games, 50 games for someone like that?

How do you manage it? What's going to be a typical kind of week for him where he plays, it swells up, you wait for the swelling to go down or the pain to subside? How does he manage this? Days off, injections, treatment. I mean, this guy's going to be living in the treatment room for sure. All the ice, all the pumping they do, everything, they can throw at it.

They're going to be throwing at it. And they're going to be watching his workload, like workload and volume. I mean, those are the big things in sports right now is managing guys' workloads. And they're going to have to watch that very closely. It's going to be the art of Hawk and Paw getting them back. It's going to be difficult, but obviously they think he's feeling good enough and Hawk and Paw knows his body. He knows what he can grind through and he's saying, yeah, I'm ready to go, so let's go. You've got to give him the benefit of the doubt

that he can handle it or they wouldn't have signed him. The original diagnosis for Patrick Laine was that he was going to need surgery. They went out and got a second opinion. They seemed to think that they could avoid it. So what's the difference maker between, where's that fine line between surgery and no surgery? Was it MCL kept with him? MCL. Yeah.

So the MCL, I mean, ligaments can heal like we were saying. Like you blow a ligament completely, the ends aren't even close to one another. Those are the ones that need surgery. You know, we hear ACL tears all the time. The guys are getting those fixed. Those rarely heal. But the MCL, there's certain places that where it tears has a really good blood supply, has a really strong healing potential, has a really strong healing potential.

And these things can actually heal. So you got to really baby it. I think they're talking two months now, three months. So they're being conservative, which they have to be. But they're thinking this isn't a location that it can heal. So that's the MCL. So I guess they thought maybe we're looking at surgery. But all these guys, everybody gets a second opinion now, right?

The agents are driving the bus. The player's looking out what's best for him. It's not the Canadians saying, we've got to get you back in six weeks anymore. It's the guys and their agents and everyone around them. They're taking it easy. He's not going to jeopardize his career so that he can play 20 more games

in his first season with the Canadiens. So now when you watch these guys having been a player and you hear guys like they're going to play through things, I tore my MCL, came back too soon, tore my MCL again. Does it make you kind of cringe when you hear guys, oh, he tore his MCL, he's back in four weeks? Some of those sort of two quick stories? Oh, for sure.

It's amazing that they don't tear him all the time. Watching these guys, you do not want to push this back early. This isn't the playoffs. This is the start of the season. This isn't the time to push. Different conversation in April.

I think maybe you're talking four to six weeks, but we're talking September, October, you know, you're not worried about it. On the other hand, do you team doctor sometimes sit in the stands and go, get up, I'm not coming to the dressing room for that. You're soft as baby doo-doo. Nope, nope. There's always right. Pat're soft as baby doo-doo. Nope, nope. Player's always right.

Patient's always right. That's right. No way, no way. I would never, ever say that about a player, Kipper. No, no, smart, very smart. You don't want to lose those two tickets, right? Nope, nope. Hey, we really appreciate your time.

You know, on occasion, if there's something of significance that we're all going to play doctor on, we're going to bring you back, all right? Well, we'll get out to Scarborough and we'll talk about it. We'll get a time. Absolutely. All right, Jeff. Thanks, buddy.

All right. Thanks a lot, Doc. That is Dr. Jason Smith, one of the leading orthopedic surgeons. Been around a long time and seen a lot. Certainly has. How are you health-wise? How's the body? Because I had a complete ACL tear.

Complete ACL tear. I had major surgery. I had an Achilles tendon. A cadaver's in my right knee right now. Really? Yeah. Never broken a bone. Haunted knee.

I have to click my knee into place every morning or else I can't walk. You do, eh? Yeah, I got to give it a good snap. And that's not a joke. I actually do that every morning. Yeah. So I'm sure at some point I'll be talking to Doc there for some help.

Well, listen, it just gives you another side of what these guys go through. And, you know, to listen to him, especially with, you know, a hock and pot knee situation, I think it gave us a little bit more of an idea of what this guy may have to do to manage just to kind of stay ready here and man it's tough. Give me the willies man. What he was saying was give me the willies

like the nerve endings and take the insurance money and call it a day man. That's I mean that's why you never ended up in the NHL I know it's not because I wasn't good but when you're in your 40s and in your case in your early 60s, I'm kidding, 50s, you do look back at some of the things you did

and go, ah, might want to redo on having played through this or that or whatever. You think you're going to live forever and you think that you're going to heal because you're in this window of being a fine-tuned athlete and then you wake up one day to your point when you're 58 and you're like

oh god I'm a little stiff right now with the hips and you know and the other thing I wanted to ask him but I didn't get a chance to is like we're seeing as we talked about in our first hour bigger goalies so i'm like the wear and tear to get up and down sometimes like that's why it takes city it's got it's harder for a bigger guy than it is for 5 10 goalie i'm sure like more stress on the body when the bigger are. No. Leave so many big goalies? Yes.

$1.66, $2.43 doing 100 butterflies a night. That's... So, Demko, like, there's a lot of stuff going on in his knee. He's got muscle up in his knee. That's not real. Well, that's the word anyways. It's been described again in the Vancouver province as being a unique injury. You never want to be unique.

Unique is not good. No. You don't want anything named after you. It's something a doctor's never seen before. No. Speaking of goalies, Askarov? Askarov sent down to the AHL from San Jose. San Jose, big trade.

They get him from Nashville. He's the goalie of the future. Not quite ready for prime time. They keep Vitek, Vanacek, and Mackenzie Blackwood over him. So they seem to think, yeah, maybe not a great showing so far. I'm wondering, and this is pure speculation, if his off-ice habits are not great. If there's something that they're like,

this guy, how do you trade for the goalie of the future? With that roster. With a bad team and not getting games in the league. Clayton Keller versus captain. Great. Utah making some decisions. How about a name? Are they going to make the playoffs? No. I think

they're going to trade picks to get players this year because they want to get in there. And like half the building can only see like half the ice. It's supposed to be a very nice building. There's a lot of obstructive views in that building. They're building a new one for 2034, the Olympic.

All right. Our thanks to Luke Fox in the first hour, Doug McClain, and Dr. Jason Smith. If you get a chance, give us a rating and review. Love to hear from you. Have a great weekend, everybody, and we're back on Monday. Real Kipper and Born.