Real Kyper & Bourne - Do or Die Desparation

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee discuss tonight's do-or-die Game 4, what's at stake for the future of management, coaching and the core four, waiting on Bobrovsky's streakiness, Mitch Marner picking a fight with the media and the Leafs' overall lack of maturity. They are joined by Luke Fox (24:57), who breaks down the Game 4 lineup, Keefe coaching for his job, getting Tavares going and the admirable maturity from Woll ahead of his start tonight. Next up, former NHL head coach Peter Laviolette discusses when his Flyers came back from down 3-0 against the Bruins in 2010, what it took, what methods of coaching are most effective in this situation and if the Leafs can pull off the same (46:19). Finally, Leafs radio analyst Jim Ralph on location in Florida shares his thoughts on why the Panthers have been so successful, the struggles on Toronto's blue line, the X-Factors for tonight, and the importance of setting the tone early (1:08:51).The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. The Toronto Maple Leafs will try to stave off elimination in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Semifinal. Nick Kiprio, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, David Siss-Boomba. And from remote, on location, let's go to Justin Bourne, who I got to be honest with you, if I thought anybody wasn't going to show up for work today, it would have been our Sammy McKee. Too nervous, I think.

But let's welcome in Justin Bourne. Hey, I got to tell people what's going on. They got to hear my sob story. My kid's school caught fire last week, and now he's back home like it's the pandemic, doing virtual school for a week. I'm back in pandemic mode, people. The Leafs are almost out. Help.

Help. Well, listen, first and foremost, glad to hear everybody's safe and sound. Nobody hurt, number one. And number two, Sammymy can the leafs catch fire for a change what do you think kipper i think feel like we've been having the same conversation for three days now yes i i let's just start listen i'll go to you first, JB. Yeah. What has to happen tonight? In a big picture for me, this isn't about winning the series. This, to me, is, as I've stated in the last three days,

saving a little bit of face. What does that mean at the end of the day? Go down with a fight. Well, that's exactly it, Kip. Like, you know, I want want to see guys fighting for ice like you know it's been if it's tough to get to the inside because you got to take some wax let's see some wax taken and some penalties drawn let's see some shots blocked like you want to know that there wasn't quit tonight that this team did believe all the way to the end here i think

there's a lot of of reputations at stake and it doesn't just need to be success you need to see the care you know are they some jawing at the other team and some fu left in them and just not rolling over and then you say it won't matter because if it does then you question the timing i think i've i stated, I think, on the show, that if the Leafs were really going to find a new way to drive stakes into their fans' hearts would be if they found a way to get this to Game 7 and lost in Game 7.

And I think that would put this team into such a murky middle. Like, I just... Losing tonight makes things clear. Right, fellas? We can all agree on that. It would be merciful. middle like i just the losing tonight makes things clear right fellas we can both we can all agree on that tonight it would be merciful if there's a sweep tonight i think it's pretty clear about what happens this offseason are we all on the same page there well we know that nothing can't happen how's that okay game five they lose in game five then what similar yes still similar i don't i i don't see uh i don't see a series loss at this point in five six or seven without changes see if they go to seven i feel like it

made the perception maybe different not for me i'm not saying my personal thing but don't you think you look within that you get if we all at the start of the year sat here and said that the leafs this year will get to the seventh game of the second round of the playoffs wouldn't that be a successful year for this group after what they've gone through for the last seven or eight years i think the bigger point there Sammy, is that if they were to get to a seventh game, the numbers, a lot of the analytical numbers and stuff, would have to tilt in their favor. They'd have to win three straight games. They're already level or even better than Florida

in some of the expected goals type stuff. If they were to win three straight here, the numbers are going to look real good. And then you go, they lost in seven, and boy, they outplayed them, and you'd show all the numbers, and you'd have a case to make right that's what i mean i just i really don't know what quote-unquote saving face is for this team in this organization i'm really i'm in a weird spot with it i don't know i think the clearest thing is if they lose

tonight and i think then you can just justify whatever you want. But if this gets beyond, if this gets to six or, you know, God forbid seven, I think the conversation changes a little bit, which I'm not sure it's right. I don't disagree with you at all. I think there's a chance to earn some credibility back, some respectability, some dignity can be gained with three wins in a row yeah i i don't know to what point does that change the dynamic for kyle moving forward brendan moving forward and jb most importantly the core four moving together yeah yeah well i think that you

know that's the real big decision and probably the hardest thing to make any changes to is like, you know, that group has been, they've had the same shortcomings, I guess, for a long time. If they, if the next three games, Sammy, to get to a seventh showed fight and commitment and, you know, all those things you'd question them for, it does change things. So that's why I think this story is not written. As much as if they go out like they went out last game, it's an easy decision. You're right. But they have time. And I think the reason I do and a lot of Leaf fans believe the story is written is because of what we've seen in the past

in these kind of games from the stars on this team. And I think a lot of people, myself included, have their mind made up. Isn't that the sense you guys are getting from everyone you talk to? Both of you guys, I'm sure, get messages from people and people stop you and talk to you about the Leafs. The general consensus I'm getting from my friends and the people that come to me is that they're pretty close to done with this era of Leafs hockey right now and if they go out in four tonight i don't

know what the hell the offseason brings but it doesn't seem like it's going to be pretty for anyone would it be typical jb of the leafs to win one or two just to yeah just to reiterate that this era was about being close but not close enough, being good but not being good enough. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, Kip. I mean, it would make way too much sense. Excuse me.

Are you okay? Everything about this team over this era has been close but no cigar, right? Good but not good enough. And it would be really shocking to have it end in clean, abject failure. has been close but no cigar, right? Good but not good enough. And it would be really shocking to have it end in clean, abject failure. You know, it would be exactly what you would expect from what we've seen, where they become a Rorschach test once again, where people go, I liked what I saw, and other people say, I don't, and you argue about it,

and no one, you know, changes their mind. In about 13 minutes, we're going to go to Luke Fox, Leaf NHL writer for Sportsnet.ca. And, you know, I love having fun with Luke and joke around with him a lot. But we got to go back a few months ago when he wrote a scathing letter on what the Toronto Maple Leafs, in his mind, were. Yeah. Was that after Anaheim? I think it was.

I can't even remember. I think it was after they got back to that road trip. I just remember it was a wow article. And please feel free to find it again. Go to sportsnet.ca and find Luke Fox's article. And we're going to talk to him a little bit about that and you know it was one that put him out there it really did put him out there because we knew where the potential was for the club we knew where the expectations were with the club and maybe it was

just a process that they needed to go through to get to a place that enabled them to get by Tampa Bay without even playing their best hockey and there was still a feeling like this team hasn't hit all the cylinders and and they're going to get better as they go along and and sure enough that hasn't happened at least in the first three games in the second round yeah and luke's articles looking pretty accurate at least going into game four absolutely and i'm sure he feels pretty good about it in terms of i mean i'm probably not really thinking about it a whole lot at this point but well listen i'm i'm absolutely gonna bring it up to him because uh has the vibe turned again oh and is there's a lot more of the media on board now on on what luke was selling two months ago yeah and he's at the rink now so we'll get his thoughts on that and then in about 30 minutes

peter laviolette nhl head coach uh this guy's been around top 10 and wins stanley cup champion he's going to join us as well and talk about uh teams being down 3-0 he's one of the four coaches in the history of the league to coach a team to do it so talk about the mentality what he's talking to about the team interesting conversation there and then we're going to go back to the rink one more time yeah in this in uh the second hour here uh and welcome in jim ralph of course uh jim along with craig simpson been there all season long for us, watched every game just like us. We'll get his thoughts on Joseph Wall in that. And how many games do the Leafs need here to save face?

He'd be a perfect guy to ask as well. As far as the Leafs are concerned, let's go to our first Kippers Clipper of the day with Sheldon Keefe on the two days off. I mean, it remains to be seen, right? If it goes well tonight, I think it would be a benefit. If not, perhaps it hasn't. But it's been a little bit bizarre.

You know, one game in five nights, you don't really get that even in the regular season normally, let alone the playoffs. So regardless, our guys are prepared, I believe. I think we're in the right head space given the circumstances. The guys are just excited to go out and play. So I think it's interesting that he said, our guys are prepared, I believe.

Little doubt. He left it hanging out there. They're prepared, I believe. JB, let me ask you, two days off, top of your head, who benefited the most, Florida or Toronto? Turn your mic on. Toronto's just got some older guys you know like uh i can't think of any of the old guys on florida who needed as bad as you know johnny looks tavarez always looks fresh with rest o'reilly you know could use it giordano looks like he's going to draw in as the seventh guy

again so have i got that right so you know don? Get a little bit of help for those guys, I think, Kip. You? I don't think it matters. I think it's just weird. It gets you out of your rhythm. You're playing every other night. That's good for the Leafs. I think it's just got them out of their rhythm a little bit. Again, I can only

tell you how I feel throughout the whole year in the show. I'm with you. i can only speak of my experience and and the feel that i get but i was looking at game seven in boston going to game one versus toronto for florida and i was looking for a lull i was looking for a an emotional letdown um an exhale by the Florida Panthers. Never saw it. They haven't done it yet. They haven't seen it yet.

Yeah, they haven't done it yet. Well, maybe in game two and Brodsky saved him a bit, but outside of that, not really. Just for a small window maybe. Yeah, yeah. But that's who you need, your goalie. Your goalie plays on the team. That's allowed.

Is it possible, JB, that Florida doesn't let their foot off the gas pedal when it comes to the intensity of a hard four check but they could they could still come back to earth and and lose the next couple of games starting with tonight for sure i i made the analogy on our show maybe the week before when you're playing 21 with someone who's hot at the free throw line you throw it off the line so they got to move their feet get off their spot know, like just change it up a little bit. You know, on the other hand, to your point there, Kip, they did play a lot of hockey in that first round, and a little bit of rest might do them good too.

So you're going to get every bit of pace from them. They know it's going to take a lot to put Toronto away. They don't want to fly back to Canada. They're going to try to get it done, right? Clear customs and all that. I think you're going to see a high-paced game tonight. If there's one thing, and I

can't believe I'm about to say this H-word, but if there's one thing that gives me hope about a potential comeback in this series, which is something that I haven't even really let myself talk about at all on this show, but it's something that McKenna was talking about yesterday when it came

to bobrovsky and just his extreme streakiness in terms of his hotness his coldness both ways both ways like when he is bad he's as bad as it is as you'll find like he is if you could see one squeaker go in tonight you might raise an eyebrow and go oh if they if they could get a cup find a way to just get a couple questionable ones by and put a little bit of seed of doubt in it, because, I mean, you know, he's a veteran. He's been around a long time, but he can get really cold. For the Leafs, again, to get people interested again in this series

or even by chance be a fifth team in NHL history to do this. Bobrovsky's got to go from the best window of his career to the worst window of his career. He's got to go full Shisterkin to usual Bobrovsky. To Vasilevsky. Yeah. He's got to play like Vasilevsky in the last four games to the Leafs to win. Which is an insane thing to say.

That's a Hail Mary. Oh, it's an absolute Hail Mary. Hey, I said, listen, I don't have much hope, but if there's one thing that does. Okay, so part of the issue, I think, with the extra day off is the media looking for stuff, right? I mean, they can only repeat what they repeat. And it's always nice when you can get some fresh material.

Did Mitch Marner give it to them yesterday with this quote uh let's go to it you know i think we've been saying it this whole time i mean we don't care what you guys say we don't listen to you guys outside of this locker room we're just focused on ourselves and uh this group in here okay um this might come to a bit of a surprise to two you two of you but i'm a mitch marner fan really yes oh interesting i am but he made a big mistake there yes and that was to draw in the media with that quote and he's picking a fight that they were doing okay oh he can't win no it's an unwinnable fight and to me him saying that yesterday in a nutshell is what a lot of the issues with this team has been for a long time it feels like it's like you're down 3-0 in a series

and you don't listen to the media and you're talking about the media. I can't think of many stars in the league that would do that. Can you? Are many guys going to blame the media? Dre Seidel went hard at Spectre. It does happen, but when you're down 3-0 and you haven't scored yet, it wasn't like he was asked, what are your thoughts about the way the media has been treating you?

Exactly. He walked into that. And I think for me, and I'll let you get in here, JB, it was just a natural defense mechanism on his part to know what is coming. Like he, he, he feels it already.

The attacks are already there. And it was just a natural defense mechanism. And in all honesty, I think the leaf screwed up because he is at times emotional. And I wouldn't have even had him available to the media. He talks every day, Kip. I know. He's one of the assistant.

That's when you know, though, if you're the PR department and they're being attacked, you don't have to make them available. And I know people are sitting there going, hey, you should talk. You should be held accountable. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, step up. But if I'm the Leafs, I'd gladly take the heat on not making him available than dealing with him starting a fight with the media.

So I'm going to tell you right now, Kipper, and I'll let you get in here, Borny. If they lose tonight, he's going to be talking again. He had, like, there's a certain, you know, you've played in this market you know it's there's a certain responsibility as the leadership core of a group which he is he's one of the assistant captains that yeah you got to talk after the game i know but and before the games that's what you do but he he's done this before oh yeah and you should

have been guarded on that yeah i i just i think know, it's one thing to do it after a game, which I think it's much more, you're much more emotional, and I think it's more, but to do it at, like, a morning skate, to me, it's just, it's a little premeditated. Barney, you've got to get in here. You know, I think for me, when I go back at someone on, like, Twitter, who's, like, crappy to me or whatever, all it does is amplify my own stress. I think about it.

I get preoccupied by it. It's more of an emotional drain on me to be engaged with someone. I think back to when Brad Marchand was mad at the media. He thought the media was being unfair to him. Remember he gave our own Kyle Bukowskis like a five-second answer like at a pregame skate, like in warm-ups. Did the same thing to the rest of the media after the game. You know, he just didn't want to give them anything.

He didn't want to talk. He didn't think the media was worth it. You know, that's probably the way to combat the media, you know, rather than doing what I equate to my own Twitter reply to someone, just like going back, kind of creating another thing to think and worry about is probably not the best place to put your focus. The PR department is just to know who can calm the waters. And sometimes I tease guys for having safe sound bites,

and they don't really say anything. Yesterday was a perfect time where you needed John Tavares to go and have his safe... Go out there and lull us to sleep? Lull us to sleep. That's what you want. Johnny Lullaby? Just don't say a word.

Ryan O'Reilly. It's a tremendous honor to be competing at this time of year. Ryan O'Reilly would never have done what Mitch Marner did. Good job, O'Reilly. Those are the guys that you should have made available for safe, but not an emotional guy like Mitch who's been down this path before and knows he's about to get really attacked if he hasn't already. Well, I think when you listen to him talk in any media availability,

and I've done it a million times this year, he's just saying whatever he needs to say as fast as possible to get it over with. No, he was on the attack yesterday. You think? Yes, he was. It's up against the world, but he specifically made it out to be like the media's the bad guys.

Yeah. And I thought he was on the attack. He does seem like a guy where he's aware of what's being said so like the not paying attention thing seems insincere i i think you know if we're if we're talking about like overall leadership and the vibe i'll even go upstairs above mitch marner okay when when i watch kyle dubas go at it with a fan the first thought i have and you loved it because on face value you think it's like rah rah rah yeah listen i loved it i know you loved it but you loved it for the wrong reason okay you loved it because it's it lacks maturity. It lacks composure. Kyle Dubas, his competitor and the guy that he needs to beat

isn't four rows underneath him. It's a waste of energy, and it lacks composure. And I'll give you another example, too. Earlier in this series, Samsonov, post-game, drops an F-bomb when he was asked about going up against Bobrovsky. Yeah. Lack of maturity, lack of composure. If I was in charge, I would have had Samsonov the next day

come out and apologize for his language. Okay? The first thing I would have said is, hey, listen, I said something yesterday i didn't i was emotional i want to apologize to uh you the media the fans i know kids are on instagram and twitter they hear me that's not me that's not who we are okay but nothing okay everybody gets to go and, and show lack of composure. And maybe that's part of the reason why you're down three games. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my language yesterday.

Myself, you know, you know, my unintentional slip. I would like to apologize for all my swears on this show. We've got a bad run here, boys. Leaf stock and everything. So I'm going to go call Luke, and then I'll hand him over to you guys. So just give me two minutes.

Just want to say I'm proud of you guys. Doing the right thing. We're taking the cursing mantle. Yes. Funny how. True honor, Kip. True honor. We always said when people swear on our show it's because they feel

comfortable it feels like a locker room whatever yeah sometimes sometimes ourselves listen i've been guilty of it and sometimes i don't even know i did it and uh but it's it's not right especially when again uh yeah we know a lot of people listen to this show, including kids, and it really isn't who we are. No. So for every bad word I've said in two years, I apologize to them. Erase them. They never happen. We just apologize.

Okay, we're going to get to Luke Fox, and we'll talk about that vibe. We'll talk about how he took Mitch's comments and is that in many ways JB, I get what Mitch is also trying to do and we've seen it before and it has worked for some teams is

us against the world, right? Yeah, 100%. They got to find something here, Kip. Whether it's new goalie comes in and turns the world, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. They've got to find something here, Kip, whether it's new goalie comes in and turns the tide, cool. The team decides that they've had enough and they want to get combative. Whatever it is, you can't go into this one in your same suit with your same pregame routine. It hasn't worked, so you need a little something different.

Yeah, you're right, Kip. There is some value in that. Okay, Derek, can we get one clip in before we go to Luke at the rink? And let's go with Matthews and Marner, two guys that have to find a way to get on the score sheet. For good reason. There's a lot of focus on the last game in Game 3, but also in Game 2 that line was quite dominant in a lot of ways

and controlled a lot of the scoring chances, had a number of chances, as did Tavares and Nylander together. When you get into a game like this, you look at the big samples, you look at all the different things that have happened throughout both the regular season and the playoffs. Matthews and our team has been the best our lines have been the best when it's been matthews marner and yarn crock it's the best line we've had all season both we've used in the regular season and in the playoffs and then uh through this playoffs

you know we've looked at it and there's been different things that we've used but you know a lot of times when marner's gone down with taveras that gives taveras a boost that hasn't really been the case it's been Nylander that's been really you know given that group of boosts so I don't see a lot of reason to change it there and Kerfoot with Tavares Nylander that's as good as that line has been is when Kerf's been there so you know we haven't liked bunting in that spot as much but he liked the energy and stuff that he brought with O'Reilly so just really puts the lines together well there for us in terms of what I believe are the best lines we've used through this playoffs and even in some cases the bigger sample for those that have had it.

So you put your best group forward and let them play. All right, let's go to Luke Fox, who's down covering Toronto and Florida in Game 4. Luke, a few things we want to get into with you, but let's start off of Sheldon Keefe's comments about the lines, and this will give us the best opportunity to win tonight. Yeah, thanks for having me on, Kipper. I would say that, you know, Sheldon Keefe, I don't think the stretch to say at this point he's coaching for his job.

So I'm happy with him going with what he thinks will give them the best chance to win this game. So that means going back to Matthews and Marner together, even though they were flat out atrocious in game three and got caved in and couldn't score again. If you know if your job's online, all the power to you, you get to make the lines. I wasn't thrilled how he answered that question that you just played the clip for. I would love to just say, these are elite players. They're going to break through. We believe in them.

That's why they're together. I don't want to hear like, do fans want to hear about the size of sample sizes and they were, he worked well with yarn crock here and there in this spot. I think, you know, I like what Luke Shen was saying. In an elimination game, it's about will and hard work and who wants it more. And I think, you know, he's getting bogged down in some of this stuff in his messaging. But in terms of how he sets the lines, he made a drastic change to the D pair,

finally breaking up the shutdown pair of Brody mccabe that wasn't working that's that's his his team to coach he's coaching for his job all the power to him he should make the lines and deep pairs the way he wants you know what's interesting is listening to that luke like i hear him basically saying tavarez needs a little help and we think neil anders the best chance at it like he's he's been really up and down in this series, all 88. I was critical of him in game one, but he does seem to be one of the few guys with offensive pop.

What do you think the coaching staff and team has felt about Nylander's performance in this second round? I think they've absolutely loved it at times when he's on. He had that one third period in game two where he was the best player on the ice by a mile. And, you know, he made an amazing play,

the assist on the one Gustafson goal. I mean, he had flashes. I think he's been going. I still think it's the same old story and that his inconsistency in this playoff drives him nuts because they see the high end. They see what he's capable of and it's just, they want him

to bring it every single night. So yeah, I mean, Tavares, I heard that same thing. It's like, we need to get Tavares going and that's kind of been a theme throughout the regular season too. I was wondering if they would have tried going back to the Ontario line. They tried it

with Marner, Tavares, and O'Reilly, and Tavares on the wing. I mean, I know it didn't work out in the short time. They tried it in the Tampa series, but this is a different opponent, and Tavares is struggling right now. So I was kind of curious, going into yesterday's practice, they might try him with O'Reilly and push him to the wing

to give him some help, but obviously that's not the case. Luke, we heard mitch's comments and there was a sense that he was angry and uh uh really made it abundantly clear what he thought about some if not all in in the media and and and the potential of what may be coming if if they get swept here but what was the sense from you and maybe others in the media on where these guys are at? Well, I'll tell you a little story. When they got back from the Western Road trip,

which was the last time they lost three in a row, and they actually lost four in a row, coming back from that horrible performance in Anaheim, their very first home practice, a bunch of extra media came, right? Because this is a potential train wreck. Things are going poorly. So you get a few extra cameras maybe from the mainstream media and lots of the beat reporters who weren't on the road.

And I heard that as these people started flooding into the room, a couple people told me, Mitch said, oh, great, here come the piranhas. So that comment, kind of the one he made yesterday about we don't care what you think, we're not listening to you, all we care about is ourselves, kind of brought me back to that moment a little bit where it's kind of like you guys are the enemy. We have to take care of ourselves. The only people we can count on, the only people who will support us is ourselves. We have to find it in here.

And I don't know if I love that attitude, you know, because the media is not really out to get them. Really, it's just a reflection. Like, if they win, there's going to be great stories written. If he has a three-point game, it's going to be a wonderful story. I would have liked to see a little more ownership in that moment. You know, the fact that things haven't gone well for him in that series, game three in particular, he looked lost.

I would love if you're wearing a letter and you've been in the league seven years or whatever it is now, that you say, I need to be better. And why drag the media into it? That particular question, no one even was asking about the media. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a fair point. And so it is like, the pressure is obviously on the superstars. That's, you know, I think it can't, it can only be on them because they changed so much from earlier in this

season, from previous season, and it's starting to feel like a lot more of the same. You know, in talking about changes for tonight, I was bringing it back to the decor a little bit. Mark Giordano, to me, has not been hyper-effective for them in this postseason. What do you make of his reduced role and how that affects the rest of the group? Yeah, so he's going to be the seventh defenseman. I think he only played around eight minutes in game three's loss.

And what do I make of it? I think they leaned on him more in the regular season than they expected to. I think in a perfect world, he would be getting third pair of minutes. But because in November, December, they had some serious injuries. Brody was out for a while riley was out for a while and they needed geo to step up and he was logging top four minutes oldest skater in the whole national hockey league i think that catches up with you i also have my suspicions that he's battling something uh and has been since the end of the regular season and you know, when this thing finally ends, are we going to drag out the laundry list of injuries?

I wonder if he has one because he hasn't looked like himself. And if he's not himself, then that's what you've got to do. You have to taper his minutes. But it's kind of sad to see because, you know, I really love his game. I love the fact that he's one of the Leafs that's not afraid to block shots, eat pucks, do dirty stuff, but he's not stuffing out cycles the way he used to. He's not as effective as he was

in the regular season. And part of that, I think, is just the team they're playing plays hard. Their forecheck is relentless. And the speed is ratcheted up. And maybe this is a little bit of father's time happening here too. Okay, but like please tell me you're not putting your surprise face on

on a guy who's closing in on 40 and he was playing 18, 20 minutes a night. Nobody saw this coming. I talked about this the moment I heard that he was coming, that you have to protect him. There needed to be nights off. You knew you were playing Tampa Bay in November, for God's sakes. November. Why?

Why run him into the ground? Why play him almost every game? That's a good point. You're right. He didn't get the load management treatment until the very end. That's a valid point, Kipper. Okay, so that's predictable. But what about the play of McCabe and TJ Brody?

No one saw that coming. No, you're absolutely right. They're getting caved in. And I wonder if Brody had a couple injuries this year. I wonder if something is aggravated there. He does not look like the same player. Jake McCabe, I mean, I don't know. I think he kind of is whatated there. He does not look like the same player. Jake McCabe, I mean, I don't know. I think he kind of is what he is.

I think he's a good defenseman. To me, it kind of all circles back to how they've structured the payroll. They have to find a Giordano at, you know, at bargain-basement rate. They have to go from McCabe over a guy uh ekholm or someone because you have to save a little bit of money here and that's because you spent so much on the top end and it's maybe it's unfair to put it all on those guys but if they were scoring three or four goals a game the last five games instead of two the offense the defense would be good enough, but the offense isn't picking up the slack right now. Luke, I know one thing that Kip wanted to talk to you about,

and Kip, I hate to jump on you here, but about Luke's article earlier in the season, you had written a piece that was fairly critical. At the time, it was eight games, ten games into the season, whatever it was. Everything you talked about there kind of feels like it was pretty bang on at this point how do you look back at that piece you wrote and feel that it is aged some i don't know six seven months later yeah well i'm getting similar vibes during this down stretch that i did in october uh i would say that after they lost to

the kings and the next game was against the Ducks, and they'd already lost three in a row. And at that point, Anaheim was dead last in the league. Morgan Riley said, well, the next game is going to be a real character attack. You're going to find out what we're made of in that game. And then they played a poor game. And the similar tone was struck after game two. They dropped the first two of this series to panthers uh alexander kerfoot called it a must win uh everyone's like okay this is do or die we got we got to get back in this series and then they laid an egg in game three so that to me relates back to to what i was talking about back then. To be fair, after I wrote that,

Kyle Dubas made, I believe it was eight different trades, and Obey Kubel's gone, and here comes Nola Chari and Ryan O'Reilly, and I do like the pieces that they brought in. I think he did some nice work. I think the depth has improved, but a lot of this, and I think I touched on it in that article,

I don't know, it was a month ago, but a lot of it is i think i touched on in that article i don't know it's been months ago but a lot of it is this great grand experiment this this idea that you can invest so such a great percentage of your cap into four guys and put all that pressure on them to perform and if someone finds a way to to solve them or if there's an injury like there was to Tavares in the Montreal series, it all crumbles. And I just think hockey is such a team sport and you need everyone. And you look down the hall and Florida's rolling four lines and they haven't changed their deep pairs and everyone's just going and going and they're finding ways. It just brings me back to maybe that doesn't work in hockey. Maybe you can't load it so heavily to all the pressure and all the money and all the responsibility to just a few guys.

Listen, we know physically Joseph Wall has never been in this position before. This is new. There's a million reasons why he should get shelled tonight. But, and this is the but, he seems to have a demeanor that doesn't get excited or doesn't really fall into that I know what's at stake feeling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Luke, but this is a guy that does not do any social media, doesn't pay attention to anything, did not find out that the Leafs traded for Ryan O'Reilly until he got into the dressing room and actually looked at the lineup pinned to the wall. Come on.

That happened? 100% true. 100% true. And he's a 24-year-old kid. What 24-year-old do you know that doesn't use social media? I applaud this guy because, because you know some people say they stay off it but you know you see the you see the guys on their phones after the games or you know was there walking to the bus but this this kid actually lived it and this is uh something he

did recently uh when he was coming back from his his injury or in training camp you know i don't know if he got some some advice or he just felt it in him that it wasn't making him happy and he said the way my mind works social media wasn't wasn't doing me any favors and i i said well how like how do you stay in touch with people and he's like i got out a piece of paper and i made a list of the people that are important to me that i want to stay in contact with so i reach out out to them directly, whatever, text or phone calls. And those are the people I talk to. And I really want to limit all the outside noise.

This guy has taken up meditation in a very serious way. All he does is talk about living in the moment. And, you know, he was asked yesterday, what was the last really big stage game that you played in that you had to perform? And he couldn't think of it. And it kind of stumped him, which shows what a big game this is. But it also shows where his head's at. He's like, really, there'll be time to rehash my journey here later.

He's like, all I'm thinking about is stopping that park right now. So I really like his demeanor. I think the Leafs have been patient in growing a good one in him. And his cap hit makes it so that, you know, if he performs, he's going to be here a long time. And he's going to be an important player for them. Wait, he pulled out a piece of paper to make a list? Not a notes app on his phone?

Who has paper? Well, listen, Luke. He's a different kid. He's a different kid he's a different yeah he is and maybe that's exactly what the leafs need tonight different yeah listen appreciate your time here's to uh delaying uh being absolutely factual on your article months ago from sammy let's hope you're still wrong on it. But enjoy the game one way or another, man. Thanks for doing this.

All right. It's not over yet. Okay. Have a good show, guys. Thanks for having me on. Thanks, Luke. Just a quick follow-up on Joseph Wall. And there are signs that he can be a solid NHL-er.

I just don't know in terms of how good he can be and whether or not he can be an NHL starter as early as next year. JB, to me, is just, again, getting ahead of yourselves. And that's not to say he can't. But there's no proof at all to suggest that this guy can turn himself into Felix Potvin or James Reimer. Well, no. You know, I guess I'm so fascinated by what a different guy he is

that there is, you know, you kind of have to be a different guy to excel and not feel the pressure at that age in these situations. And he seems to have whatever that recipe is. So, no, you would never assume that someone could handle it. But if you're going to have someone be a strange outlier, give me a weird guy. I'll take it.

I think the Leafs have probably saved themselves a little bit of money on the Samsonov front, too too during this playoffs, haven't they? I don't think he's going to be getting a massive contract. The number one priority of the offseason, whoever's calling these shots at this point, is probably to find a way to get rid of the Murray deal, and then you have however much you'll pay Samsonov and Joseph Wall, and you'll go into the season with that as your pairing next year, right?

I mean, yes, I think you're right. Is there any word on Samsonov at all? Yeah, it's day-to-day. So he had an MRI. Yeah. And? Sore. Just sore.

I guess. See, I would have felt better if I would have heard broken collarbone or something. I would have felt better. I'm sorry, but I would have. Yeah, he or something. I would have felt better. I'm sorry, but I would have. Yeah, he's just day-to-day. Why, Kip? Yeah. A little too quick to come out of the net for me.

I would have liked to have seen him argue with the trainer, not wanting to come out, and then having the trainer pull him out. He got smoked. I know he got smoked. So did everybody else got smoked. All the guys He got smoked. I know he got smoked. He got absolutely smoked. So did everybody else got smoked. All the guys are getting smoked.

It's a wild take. He got annihilated by Luke Shen. I don't think he could play. He was hunched over. He's just sore. I kind of had a similar take yesterday, Sam. I know, I know. Okay, so he's sore, right?

He's out sore. I hope the Leafs hang in there long enough so he can be un-sore and come back in the net. I mean, if they hang around long enough, it's because Joe Wolfe and Gooden can't get back in. Like, there's a world, and we're going to talk to Laviolette, like, they pulled, pretty sure they pulled Boucher after they went down 3-0, Brian Boucher,

and they put in Michael Layton, and then they won four straight. Right? Like, this is the point of series where stuff like this happens i'm not hey catch you can catch me i'm not believing in this i'm just saying that like you might be believing if they if they start getting back in this series samsonov whether he's sore or not ain't going back in because joe wall be playing well enough for them to get back into it so So there you go. Molly Pip. All right. Got a couple things for you today in playoff picks if you guys are ready.

Let's go. All right. It's time for playoff picks presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds. Did my, you know, biweekly Consmite Trophy check-in. The only reason I bring this up is because the two Edmonton Oilers are down to 9-1 now. After they've gone down 2-1 in the series, the favorites, Matthew Kachuk, still at plus 650. So I think if you believe that the Edmonton Oilers are going to find their way back into this series,

which they're only down 2-1, all they've got to do is win tonight and then right back in it, you think that you're probably never going to see Leon Dreisaitl and Connor McDavid at 9-1 again for Conn Smythe. So if you have some belief in that, maybe you could take a little look at that number. That's a very smart pickup there where you're not just betting on the player, you're betting against the series flow. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. That's a good one.

I want to talk about the Oilers later, but we've got time at the end of the show, I assume. Oh, yeah. So I got one here, the same game parlay for the Leafs game tonight. I like to call it the redemption parlay. And that's an Austin Matthews goal. Mitch Marner over a point and a half in a Leafs win that pays plus 375. So if you're a believer, if you believe that Mitch Marner, whatever he said to the media and Matthews and all these guys,

they're really, it's us against the world. They're going to come out big and they're going to have a big game. They're going to win in this series. They're going to need their stars to have a big game. So there you go. That's a little plus money for you. Draw some penalties. Draw some penalties.

Yeah, they could get a power play. You know what, though? You love that one even if you're not a Leaf believer because the Leafs excel at optimizing the pain of their fan base. So that includes winning another game or two here. So a good bet there. There you go. And happiness hedge number not looking great for the Cats.

They're down to minus money, minus 105. A lot of people – they were at plus 105 yesterday. A lot of people hammering the Cats. So, yeah. I'm on the Leafs tonight, boys. First time all playoffs. Money on the Leafs. And the last thing I have to you before we get the break to get to Peter Lavallee-Ouellette is Vegas is a pretty juicy plus 165 tonight against the Oilers.

I think the Oilers probably, you know, get it done tonight. They've been good bouncing back. But if you think there's some value there, plus 165. If you want to get it value there plus 165 if you want to get it up to plus 425 you can parlay it with an iko goal who's been hot for them so that's been playoff picks presented by bet 365 you can visit the app for the latest odds peter laviolette nhl head coach eighth all-time and win stanley cup champion and knows a thing or two about being down three nothing in a series lavi after the break you're watching and listening to real kipper and born

breaking down the top stories in the nhl every day the jeff maris show subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts this is real kipper and born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Kiprios, Justin Bourne. JB, looking forward to our next guest. Only one of four coaches to come back 3-0. And it's hard not to think about it, is it? I know it's one win at a time,

and that's what everybody says, and one shift. But come on. It's hard not to think about the odds here. Yeah, I think it starts with winning a couple of games. You go into a game six, it feels like you get yourself a series so uh i've joked about my uh you know sobriety before it's the old 24 hours at a time right that's all this is you just win the get through the day win today worry about tomorrow tomorrow kip all right let's welcome him in peter laviolette eighth all-time in wins add another what 74 wins in the playoffs and we're

so happy to have you aboard peter how are you hey kip how you doing guys how are you we're good we're good listen you could just do the circuit in toronto for the next uh what few hours talking about bringing a team back to life three and0. Not many, only one of four. Can I ask you in terms of, first of all, to just kind of compare it to what the Leafs are going through right now. When we talk about, you know, your Flyers up against Boston going down 3-0, as a coach, what did you identify the most that was wrong that you needed to change or

change the energy what went wrong if you kind of compare it to maybe what the Leafs might be going through you know I thought back back then I thought that we had played you know some games you don't play well at all and you probably deserve to lose. I thought that we had played pretty well in the first three losses. And so I don't think that there was any lack of confidence or I don't think that, you know, our guys were in the room trying to figure out how we're going to do this. And, you know, obviously we talked about the moment and not thinking about the three games in the past and not thinking about, you know, obviously we talked about the moment and not thinking about the three games in the past and not thinking about, you know, the possible game that might come after that.

We just talked about staying in the day and staying in the moment. And I do think that, you know, part of it, I think, was being able to handle the pressure of a situation like that. We had some pretty cool cats in the room at the time. Pronger was in there, and Hartnell was in there, and Tiemann was in there, and we had Richards and Carter, and they were really good young players at the time, and Simone Gagné.

So we had some guys. But more than that, I think at Christmas we were, by Christmas or by the first of the year, we were last place in the league. And so that whole second half of the year was a lot of pressure and a lot of, you know, I had to do the right things and play the right way. And there were setbacks along the way, too. Like, if you remember, we made it in on the last day of the year that's the that's the year that we won it was either the rangers were either going to go to the playoffs

or we were going to go to the playoffs on game number 82 and so inside of that there was pressure again and like dealing with that and how to play with that and um and when it ends up going to a shootout and i remember once we won that game it's like we took the biggest piano and just threw it off our back and we placed new jersey in the first round and we just we went right through them and um and we ended up coming out and i still i thought we were playing okay and so it wasn't it wasn't talking about major changes that had to be made. It was about staying confident and staying positive in the things that we were doing on the ice.

And we found ourselves, you know, in that situation down 3-0. I think the guys just stayed in the moment. And they played hard for one game, and we found ourselves a win. I think that first one might have been an overtime. I think game four might have been an overtime. And so that pushed us on from there, and we ended up making it to game seven. We're talking to Peter Laviolette, and

the discussion is his 2010 Philadelphia Flyers coming back from a 3-0 deficit to beat the Boston Bruins. JB? Yeah, Lavi, was there a moment there in that series where you felt the tide turn, where you went, okay, it's only game five, but I feel like our guys believe this is possible now?

Or, you know, does it come when you make the goaltender switch? Where do you start to feel the vibe that it's possible to scale the mountain? Well, the goaltending switches were out of necessity. They weren't based on a call. We literally moved between Boucher and Leighton based on injury. And so one carried us. Leighton carried us. He came on late in the season,

and he's really the guy who backstopped us and got us in the playoffs. Boucher played great when he was called on, and then Leighton got hurt and Boucher came in and he delivered. And right at the time when the coaching we made a switch it was because of an injury and then you know Layton was back in that and Boucher was injured I think Boucher if I remember correctly somebody went into him and he had a double groin pull he went into a wicked v-split and um you know he he went into a wicked v-split and pulled both groins and so he he was out, and so Leighton came back in.

But, again, I think that you have to win one game. Like, you have to win that one. And then that confidence that you can grab from the one game is incredible. And like I said, it's not like we felt like we were badly outplayed. I'm not saying that Boston played bad or that we deserved to win. We just weren't outplayed. They were good games. They were close games and we lost all three. And so to play in game four and to get that win, it was a lot of confidence, especially for a team who had dealt with a lot of pressure and a lot of circumstance through the course of the year

to fight back, fight back, fight back. It was a situation that we were familiar with. So, you know, from there we won the next game, and I think one of the games was a pretty good shutout. I think maybe it was by quite a bit, and it ended up pushing to a game seven back in Boston, and then that became even more dramatic because, I mean, the fans in Boston blew the roof off the place in the first 10 minutes because they went up 3-0. And so not only were we down 3-0 in the series, we're now back to it again, down 3-0 in a game.

And the guys never lost their composure. They never lost their cool. And, you know, we got a goal going into that second period. And we said, listen, forget about the first and forget about the third. Let's win the second period. Again, just stay in this moment right here. Let's win the second period. And we ended up winning it by two goals. We won it 2-0.

And so it's now 3-3 going into the third period. Lavi, much like Sheldon Keefe, a goaltending change out of necessity. Where were you with Leighton in terms of where he was in his career, his development, his mindset to go into it? Much different, I think, with Joseph Wall,

who's never started a game in his life in the NHL playoffs. Was there thoughts that Leighton can come in and do the unthinkable? Well, he had done it to that point, Kim. He had come in, and we had a lot of goaltending injury that year. I mean, it was a ton. I mean, at one point, I think we took Carter Hutton out of college to back him up for a game. And there was a lot of things that went on.

Ray Emery was part of it there, and he had that major, major hip surgery replacement. We were behind the eight ball with injuries with regard to the goaltending, and so Michael Layton, for the most part, played most of his career in the minor leagues, and his stats in the minor leagues are unbelievable. I think he holds records in there for shutouts and just a terrific goaltender in the American Hockey League. But only, you know, his NHL career was not nearly as extensive. He did have some games, obviously.

He played some, and it wasn't his first stint in the NHL. But, you know, you're talking about a guy who spent, I can't remember the numbers, but nine or ten years in the minor leagues and was a standout in the American Hockey League. And so he came in and he's the guy who gave us unbelievable goaltending to come from last place at Christmas and to qualify on the last day of the year to make the playoffs. And so he got injured and Boosh came in and Boosh played really well also. And so they kind of tagged off of each other. But again again it was based on injury not necessarily poor play one went down and one was able to go that guy was went down and the next guy and then the other guy was ready to go back in and so we were able just to tag team him through

tag team him through injury and get to the you know get to the finals so lav you've watched this some of these stanley cup playoffs here and you would have coached against Florida at least three times, at least three times this year. What were your impressions of those clubs? I guess, are you surprised by what Florida's been doing in the postseason? I'm not. We played Florida late in the season, and if you look at their – and we played Toronto, obviously, too, through the course of the year.

And Toronto is – they're dangerous, and they're fast and they're skilled and they're capable of really doing a number on you. And so you have to be ready to defend. You have to be ready to do the right things with the puck all the time. When we played Florida, I remember going home after the game and I talked to my wife about it. And I'm like, this team is, they're in a different, I think they're on a different page because a lot of their skill

plays within a real aggressive style. Like, you know, Kachuk is a hard player to play against, and Ekblad can be a hard player to play against. And, you know, the centerman there that they got from Calgary. Bennett. Bennett. Sam Bennett. Unbelievably hard to play against.

Like a physical, gritty, tough player. And Gutis on the back end. And you just go down their forwards and you look at Lomberg's hurt right now. And a lot of their forwards are really hard to play against. They're kind of built for that. As you know, when it ramps up and the battles become more contested, I just left the game, and I'm saying if they get some good goaltending, which they have.

I think Bob's played excellent. You know, down the stretch there, the goaltending was switching off there at times. But Bob's a world-class goaltender, and I think he's a two-time Beds in the Winter. And so they built a team, I think, that's capable of success in the playoffs, and they needed to get some goaltending, and they've gotten it.

Peter, as far as what you just mentioned about an aggressive style out of the Florida Panthers, the Leafs went out and they got Alafrade and Achari, but most often those guys find themselves in the bottom six. Is this a time when you wish the Leafs, some of their stars, were able to put more of an aggressive style together with that skill that you were talking about. Is there a big difference between not having that guy in a top six or not?

You know, as you know, Kip, this thing has been won. This cup has been won a whole bunch of different ways. And it seems like, you know, it seems whoever wins, everybody tries to emulate that a little bit the following year, you know. And if it's done two years in a row, you really try to emulate that. And, you know, I'm thinking back to, like, 2006 when we won in Carolina. I don't think that we were, per se, overly physical. I think that we played hard.

Like, you know, there wasn't that – although I remember in the finals, maybe it's just the Stanley Cup that brings out the best in the physicality in everybody. But, you know, we had good skill on that team. We had Rod Brendamore and Justin Williams and Eric Stahl and Corey Stillman was unbelievable for us in the play in the regular season but in the playoffs too and um you know we had a lot of guys dougie wake came in and mark recce so it's not necessarily those type of players that you're

talking about although they played extremely hard in the playoffs we we felt good going into the playoffs but i i don't think it's necessary I don't think it's completely necessary. And I wasn't at the time when I made that comment after we played them that night, it's not like I was saying, oh, because they're going to play the Leafs somewhere down the road. I was just making a statement, just a general statement. I'm like, that team's ready to play in the Stanley Cup playoffs because of the physicality and the puck battle physicality, the little bit of nastiness they bring.

But that doesn't mean that they're going to win the Cup either. You know what I mean? Like Toronto pulls out of this, they go on to win the Cup, and everybody's going to say, well, you've got to do it exactly like Toronto does it. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, that seems to be it. It's all such a copycat league. And so I guess my question for you, you have so much experience with this stuff is the people in toronto will be saying that if this core four

doesn't win a cup that you could tape all the grit and intangibles and all that stuff outside of them it doesn't matter if they themselves don't have it but you look at players that go on who don't necessarily have that maybe a phil kessel wins a couple of cups like there are people who have had success without that sort of chippy build. What are your thoughts on your core and what it has to be? Can they do it with a group like this, or do you need to have that bit of edge within your core? I think so.

You're talking about really good players there. And so they've had some battles in the last couple years. They're facing Tampa Bay a lot. And Tampa Bay was built. And they're a real good team. And so I don't think that they've ever, you know, come out and embarrass themselves in that manner. When you're talking about the core players in Toronto, you're talking about really, really good players. And so, you know, it's, I don't know.

Can you change things and can you mix it up? Yeah, you can always do that, right? But with regard to those players, I mean, they're in the prime of their career and they're really high-level players. So, you know, you'd like to see him you'd like to see him win one game tonight and then move on like i'm telling you the confidence of winning just one game if you just if you can really just keep it that simple i remember asking them i remember asking going in you know can we do you think if we play the bruins one time do you think we can win one game and we'd

already played them well. And the answer was resounding. It was just a simple question, but it was resounding in the room. The answer was yes. I asked Mike Richards, the captain, can we beat them in one game? Yes. And then you just harp on that. And then, you know, going out for the third period, can we win? Can we beat them in 20 minutes?

And the answer is yes. And then from there, like that confidence that you get from that. And so obviously it's important, right? Because if you don't do it, then you're going home. But that one win can really give you a lot of confidence. It can springboard you in the right direction. One more for me, Peter, and I love having you on. And I wish we had more time to get into this.

And that is, again, going back to your your situation any team in the playoffs is down three nothing their stars aren't aren't going we know that um terms of sheldon behind the scenes when you're desperate down three nothing and you need to go challenge three or four guys can you can you how hard behind the scenes would a coach now challenge his star players verbally emotionally uh behind closed doors can you almost embarrass them into playing better ultimately we can we we can talk about how poorly these guys have done up until this point, but doesn't it fall on the coach's responsibility to get these guys ready? And if he can't do it, ultimately they get somebody else? Yeah, those were a lot of questions.

I'm not in the room. I don't even know if it would be fair for me to comment on that. I know that there's a whole bunch of different ways to skin the cat when it comes to coaching. And like I said, they've been an elite team the entire year. And for years they've been a top team. And so it would be difficult for me to answer that question. No, no, no.

But in general, Peter, in general, it is it attacked is is it is is something that coaches can do um and did you challenge how hard did you challenge the guys in philly in 2010 well there's different ways to do it right so there's always different ways to do things whether whether you whether you call them out whether you do it in the office and and you you put it all on the table, whether you bring some sort of motivation, some sort of, you know, something that rallies. That's why I was saying there's a bunch of different ways to skin the cat. And so I don't dare try to speak to what went on in there.

I know that Selma's got a really tough job and their coaching is really difficult. And so and they've been a really good team. But with regard to what's going on, there's a bunch of different ways that you can go at it. You can go at the group. You can go at the leaders. You can go at anybody you want. You can do it through trying to be firm.

You can do it by trying to make this message, tell this story about greatness. And, you know, there's different ways. That's what I'm saying. There's different ways to skin the cat. And I think you have to get a read on your room and a read on where everybody's at if there's not much confidence in there to go down and bury them you know in some sort of verbal beat down i'm not sure that that's the answer either and so but again with me you know not knowing what went on in there i don't even dare to guess it, but I do know that from a motivation standpoint from a coach, there's lots of different ways

you can go at things. One more, and I love having you on again. Just in terms of, I know 10 or 15 years ago, I know when I played, man, it was simple, man. They're coming after you if you're not delivering. Have the kids changed today?

Is it harder to get to them? No, I still think there's lots of that with regard to going into a room, and I think you have to be that way. And so I do think it's changed, Kip. There's no question that the game has changed with regard to that and handling the players. But I always think that there's a time for that. I just call it playing honesty, right?

There's always time for honesty and a message to be sent. But I really think you've got to look at where your team's at and try to get a feel on how you're going to change it and how you're going to make a difference inside of that. And so it's definitely changed though back when you played you're right dude you're absolutely right i mean there could be things flying in the room and barrels being tossed and sticks being broken and you know but and and there just still is at times i think here but i really think you got to read

the situation tonight fantastic stuff peter really Really appreciate you coming on our show. Can I just throw this at you? A handful of NHL jobs available, maybe more after the next few rounds. I suppose you're right in the mix with everything? Yeah, so I mean, I love my time in Washington. I worked with a great group and um it was great great fans and it's a great city i my contract is is coming to an end on june 30 and and basically my wife and i just decided to come back to florida and see what's up so

you know i if if an opportunity presents itself i'm definitely going to look at i definitely want to you know, coach again, but there's not a lot of those opportunities out there. So, and like I said, it's a privilege to do that. But right now my contract was up and we just came back to Florida. So right now we're just enjoying some Florida sunshine and, you know, we're just hanging out right now. That's Peter Laviolette, eighth all-time in NHL wins.

Lavi, thanks for doing this, pal. You got it, buddy. Take care. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. God, I loved hearing that. Sticks. Break in.

Boys, that was really good. Honestly, could be the potential final day of the Leafs season that we got our best interview of the year on the last day. I'm telling you that that's the stuff that goes on behind the scenes right now. And he's right. There's still ways to go about this. And if Sheldon's going down, he's got to – did you say it earlier? If he's going down, go down your way.

If he thinks this is the best lineup, maybe it was Luke. If you think this is the best lineup, then show us. Show us tonight that this is the best chance. Quickly here before we go to break, fellas, I just wanted to sneak this one in here that tonight, sorry, tonight's Toronto Maple Leafs 50-50 draw is currently at

almost 6,085. You get your tickets at 5050mapleleafs.com and help change the game. So there you go, fellas. All right. Almost seven grand. Yeah. All right. Nice job,

Sammy. And we're going to take a quick break, absorb what Lavi just told us, and get ready for Jim Ralph, who is on location covering Game 4. Toronto Maple Leaf radio color analyst. After the break, we'll get into Joseph

Wall and his start, and how many games does he think the Leafs need to get some respectability back on their side. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, you are listening and watching Real Kipper and Bourne. The best Blue Jays show out there, period. Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. All right, let's go back. Right back down to Florida. Luke Fox was nice enough to join us, and we're going right back there with Jim Ralph. On location, voice of the Toronto Maple Leafs color analyst. Ralphie, did you pack enough underwear?

I didn't know how long I was going to be here so no i thought it was just a one day thing how's the extra day treating you oh it's been fine but i think you know once you get to this time of year you'd rather go every second night get that nice rhythm going because i think what was back 93 they played 21 games in 41 nights. And it was just incredible, the rhythm every second day. You win a series, day off, start another one. So I think that would be the preference. But, you know, the arena availabilities and all that other stuff that goes on,

it's kind of odd to have one game in, what, five days up to this point. Yeah, very strange. You know, going into this game, a lot has been said with that extra time, obviously. Where does it leave you in terms of expectations for the Leafs' performance tonight? I just talked to Sammy. We'll know in the first three or four minutes.

You know, and I think a good example, and we've seen it throughout the playoffs, but I think, you know, if you watched Dallas-Seattle last night, you know in the first watch Dallas-Seattle last night, you know in the first five minutes Dallas was going to take it. You know, they had more jump, won more battles, and, you know, the determination was there. So, you know, I think if they get into one of these 2-2 games again and it's just sort of back and forth, then you better worry.

I think that benefits Florida. I think from a league standpoint, they've got to come out and say, you know, it's hard to take with a better team, and we've just got to prove we want it more. So that's what I think. You know, in the first five minutes, if they've got the jump and the legs and they get scoring chances, maybe draw a penalty, you'll be satisfied. But I think the longer it would stay close, the more you'd start to worry.

We listened to Sheldon Keefe talk about his line combinations and what he thinks ultimately he draws back on, and that is Yarncroft with Matthews and Marner. Where are you with his lineup? I suggested a second line of Ryan O'Reilly and Marner and Tavares on the left side and played a crap out of six of these guys. But your thoughts about going back to what he deemed the most successful during the regular season?

Yeah, I mean, I still like Matthews and Marner. I think if they're going to somehow claw their way back into the series, they have to be pivotal and be together. I mean, I'm with you in a sense where you're kind of like Tavares and Marner because they've had some success, but look at him. He's not. But. It's not. Oh, Sammy, we're going to have to reconnect with Jim Ralph.

All right. We might've had a drop call there. Right after Lavi and Luke's home run interviews. Hey, JB. right after Lavi and Luke's home run interviews JB are you okay with Sheldon saying this is the most success that I've had during the regular season and that's why I'm going back there because I got a bit of an issue with it

yeah and I don't necessarily think it's accurate Sheldon Kipper like I think if you look back at when they went on a real good run in November, they played Nylander with Matthews quite a bit and Tavares and Mitch. And I just don't know that it's accurate is all. For me, it's, again, two different style of play during the regular season and what you now are looking at in the playoffs.

And even if they did have success in the regular season and what you now are looking at in the playoffs and even if they did have success in the regular season did you envision that similar success or that similar style of play how you scored uh easily seamlessly falling into the playoffs because it's not and where did the most success come from? Did it come from like the bottom 15 teams of the league, the top 10, the top 15, let's welcome in Jim Ralph back.

Ralphie, thanks for joining us, but maybe your, your continued thoughts on the lineup. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know,

even I thought maybe, you know, you put O'Reilly back with, with Tavares and Malini Lander, but, you know, we'll see. I mean, what we see in the first five minutes may not be what we see in the second period as well, depending on how the games go.

But I've always been a believer that Matthew's a minor. You've got to keep him together. I think he's one of the best playmakers in the league and one of the best finishers. I think it's analytics analytics aside i think that makes sense to uh like an old guy so a surprising turn of events for the leafs in terms of biggest game of the season and joseph wools in the crease we we talked about this on our show with the trade deadline how you could end up in a situation like this and sure enough they are what are your thoughts and expectations about wool tonight um and this isn't you know slagging anybody else i honestly believe

he's their best option uh you know how you saw him play down the stretch uh you know how he finished against the rangers and um you know the game in tampa uh and i think what he gives you sort of that stability where, you know, even the three goals he gave up in game three, he wasn't beaten on a clean shot. You know, where he squared up and just got beat or missed it. So I think that's what they need more than anything. It's just don't give up that bad one at the wrong time. And I just like the way he plays.

I know Joe and I talked with about three weeks left in the season it looks like they're going to clinch home ice against tampa um i don't think we said it on the air but or at least i hope we didn't we said that that um you know you got to play him you got to play joe wall that game in tampa because he might be the key you know to get into that series and and he did and played well and picked up the win. So I don't look at it as a downgrade. In fact, maybe

the plus would be Florida thinks they got another break. And just ease up just a little bit, thinking that the Leafs are really down to their third. If you go back to the start of training camp, they're fourth only in the depth chart.

And you look at any series that's turned around. New Jersey made a change going down 2-0 to the Rangers, and Bobrovsky came in when Florida was in trouble, and they came back. So for whatever reason, that seems to be part of the formula for any kind of comebacks is the goal-cutting change. We're talking to Jim Ralph, Toronto Maple Leaf radio colour analyst. Ralphie, a big part of the conversation in the last few days

is how many games do the Leafs need to win to earn a little bit of respectability or safe face? Is it all or nothing here? Do they have to make history? Or is there something in between for you? No, I think it's gotta be all or nothing. You know, I think you're at the point where,

you know, the big concern was, are you going to have to be Tampa? Then you got to be Boston. And then that's going to be such a tough sled. I think it's, you know, the opportunities there.

And with all due respect to the Florida Panthers, it played exceptionally well. You know, you go up and down the rosters, and you're saying there really shouldn't be a comparison. So I think that's where, you know, talent and desire have got to meet. I mean, they've won four games before in a row. That's not a prediction, but it's certainly a possibility. What are your thoughts on what's making Florida so successful?

Last game, the Leafs couldn't get to the inside. Some of their D, Goodison, Stahl, and Ekblad seem to be having success at protecting the net. What are you seeing out of Florida? It's kind of funny. It seems like after every loss, the thing is, well, they kept us to the outside. This is usually the time of the year where you put the helmet on and you make sure you get to the front of the net. I don't think the Leafs did enough of that, especially in Game 3. I think that's one of the reasons they don't draw any penalties.

If you're not charging to get into position, I think the Leafs did enough of that, especially in game three. I think that's one of the reasons they don't draw any penalties is, you know, if you're not charging to get into position, you know, there's interference calls and holding and everything else that's going to keep you out of the slot. So I think that's up to the Leafs to, you know, kind of bury through that, you know, and not use it as an excuse that, you know, Florida's doing this and there's nothing we can do about it. I mean, that's where you've got to find the result to get the results you want.

Maybe about six weeks ago, I wrote an article on Morgan Riley, and it will be impossible for the Leafs to have success in the playoffs without this guy bringing his A game. And sure enough, he gives a completely different look against uh tampa bay and the least thing that you expected was all of a sudden a drop off from others on that blue line but that's really what's happened to tj brody and to a lesser extent i really believe jake mccabe as well how surprised are you at uh the lack of success from these guys? Well, yeah, you know what, Kipper?

I mean, that is sort of the key. And even Brody getting beat on the overtime winner. He's, what, minus five in the series? And I think it's Jake McCabe's minus seven. And, you know, when you sort of looked at those guys, I mean, it seemed throughout the regular season, throughout his time in Toronto, if somebody was struggling, you put him with T.J. Brody, and he was sort of

the fixer. And I think that's why it's kind of surprising they've had such difficulty getting the puck out of their own zone, you know, even making that D-to-D 10-foot pass when you have full control of it. I mean, like I said, you give

Florida credit for the four check and how hard they've played. But they've got to be a lot sharper and crisper because that's probably, you know, bringing that up is probably the fourth or fifth most talked about thing, but it may turn out to be the most important. Wasn't it strange how quickly they came to really miss Matthew Nyes? Like, it's noticeable, isn't it? Yeah.

You know, he seemed to be a nice fit playing alongside Austin Matthews. You know, he scored that great goal in game one, and you just saw that he got better every game. And, you know, especially under the circumstances, you had to admire it. But it's me like so, like you saidith said you know we played all year without him you can't really you can't really use a guy that's got what seven or eight nhl games experience not being in a lineup is your excuse not to win no but you can't look at the guy like michael bunting who was out a little bit in the first round and ask some questions about his performance how do you think he's bit in the first round and asked some questions about his performance. How do you think he's looked in the sort of return to not being the hyper,

I guess, annoying Michael Bunting, but him just trying to play hockey? Yeah, I mean, it's such a fine line. You know, guys like that have to kind of straddle that line to be effective without costing you. And you almost wonder if there's just a little, it's a little too tentative right now. I mean, he's still working, still trying to be aggressive. But you see, maybe it's trying to be too careful not to take a penalty or get over emotionally involved.

So, you know, hopefully he's another guy that every game he gets a little bit better. But that's one thing I noticed with Borny is he's just a little, I don't want to say timid, but cautious. And I don't think that's, you know, he's not playing with Matthews and Marner tonight, or at least to start. But that's what I think you'll leave, you know, controlled recklessness out of him

to make a difference. Biggest factor tonight for you for Leafs' success. Wall, a power play goal. Where do you look first, Ralphie? You know what? I don't go back to the first five minutes. If they're serious about getting back and they've all said the right things and one game at a time.

Like I said, I looked at Dallas last night. You know in the first five minutes they were going to win. And I think from a Leafs standpoint, that's what they've got to have. Just get off to a good start, get their legs under them and start to feel like they're carrying the play and they can dominate the game. Are you and

Bonesy at the beach down there in Florida? You got Bonesy out? Oh no, I'd never go to the beach with Joe. Thanks for clarifying. I don't want to touch that one. There's so many ways I can go, but I'm going to leave that one alone.

Just get pucks deep and win the one-on-one battles, Kip. I'll be. You never disappoint on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. have a great call tonight pal all right thanks guys thanks for having me on toronto maple leaf radio color analyst jim ralph uh i'm i'm not sure about the first five minutes uh and i i appreciate ralphie talking about it and giving us his thoughts.

But JB, didn't we see a pretty good 5-10 minutes in a 1-0 lead out of Lafferty in game three? Yeah, right. And the top guys had a rush that they almost scored on. Then they did score in a rush. It seemed like they had it for whatever reason. And I don't know if you want to credit the coaches of Florida for changing things. It goes back to the one word that I've described Florida for three games.

And let's bring in Sammy McKee back into this. Florida is relentless. Like, we're talking about a 2-0 lead that the Leafs had at the Scotiabank Arena. Only to fall a minute and six seconds later at 3-2 they go up 1-0 in Florida they go up 2-1 in Florida this team just doesn't stop coming at you I think it's more what Ralphie's alluding to and which I'm kind of paraphrasing is that it's more about if the Leafs are gonna make this even a game or not like I think if they if the Leafs are going to make this even a game or not. Like, I think if the Leafs go down too Cobb early,

it could get really ugly. Like, I think if you even want it to be a game, if the Leafs go up a couple in the first, maybe they'll still lose. But the fact that they're going to show some fight will still be there, and they're going to be playing in a close game. You know what I'm getting at here? Like, if they go down early, fellas, it could get real ugly for the lease i think there were certainly some takeaways from the peter laviolette interview that you could relate to

as a least fan where you say we actually thought we played pretty good i understand last game they didn't but two of the three games i feel like you the leafs have played pretty well you know he mentioned that they tied right game four they went, they went to overtime, won it, and kind of started to find their groove a little bit. Like, you could see some little bits of hope, but what didn't give me hope is when he went on to say that they were the eight seed that snuck in and were playing those sort of playoff level,

you can't kill us type of games. And that is the opposite of this series. I know. So just some, I mean, I don't know if you want to get into this here. You still want to do some Leafs stuff? What do you got for us, Sammy? We've covered a lot of Leafs. Get some interesting news from Frank Cervelli here.

Okay. It says, sources, Flyers president search down to two Turner sports analysts. I'll give you a clue. One of them joined our show yesterday. And Keith Jones. Eddie O? Yep. And now it's been expected this week of the Flyers.

The search is down to Eddie Olchek and Keith Jones. We just can't afford for either of those guys to go. We use them both. I know. Crazy, right? Yeah. Listen, they're good hockey men. Yeah. use it both i know crazy yeah listen they're good hockey men yeah uh jones he's covered the team for many many years his uh his dna is all over uh that that uniform yep so that would be that would

be a good start i think for the flyers yep it's crazy that is that's very interesting did you guys want to talk about that other tweet from yesterday from Larry Brooks? Or did you want to... Keep going, pal. Keep going. We're in the news and notes around the league. The wild tweet that he sent yesterday with... I'm just looking for it right now.

Larry Brooks, who's an incredibly reputable name around the league. You've been reporting for a very long time. Well-connected. And he said, so I will pass along this scenario that was just presented to me. Dubas leaves Toronto to become Pittsburgh GM, brings

Keefe with him as such, fires Mike Sullivan who then becomes a free agent to join New York Rangers as the head coach. Is that all? Yeah. Yeah.

I'd be surprised if the Pittsburgh Penguins fire Mike Sullivan. He's got, I think, a few years left on a new contract. I like Mike Sullivan a lot. And, yeah, who doesn't? Well, that's the thing. And number two. Can the Leafs trade coaches? Number two is you fired Burke and Hextall.

You couldn't wait. And if you're even contemplating getting rid of Mike Sullivan, don't you just do the whole thing? Clean sweep? Yeah. Yeah. To me, like, I don't want to, you know, like I don't want to slag on sheldon keith out here but i have a hard time believing keith as the coach of the penguins you

know like that's such a big job and he's like he's he's had some clout now he's been in the league for a while but like to go into that room and coach sid at this point of their careers that that's a that's something that's really hard and, and Sullivan's got a good relationship with him. I'd be surprised by that part of it, mostly. For sure, I also wonder. The Dubas to Pittsburgh thing is not, that's not a surprising thing. Like, I wouldn't be surprised by that at all,

but the Keefe part, I would be for sure. You know, if Dubas is suddenly like this, you know, all of a sudden the bell of the ball that has all these suitors, like, does he still, is he curious to know what it's like to experiment with non-Sheldon Keefe? Yeah. You know, like, would he like to know what it's like to put himself out there a little bit? I think just for optics, you might want to interview a few other people if you get the job. If, in fact, Kyle leaves Toronto and ends up in Pittsburgh,

you don't want to just say, I'm hiring my buddy. Yeah, I don't think optically it's great at all. I think they both would benefit from, you know, showing they can work for other people and with other people. Or just come back in the series and work with each other. Can we play the results here? Like if they lose this series, can we go down this road? What do you think Keefe's market looks like if he doesn't come back here?

I think it's a great question. Yeah, that is a great question. And I would assume that you just wouldn't look at the surface of it. You'd want to research it. You'd want to talk to people on the inside that would know, get to know Sheldon outside of his coaching record. Yep. And come on, how many times has he been behind the bench over the years?

And you're like, Oh, listen, coach of the year, November, December, January, the records,

one of the best records in history. I said that this year when they had no decor and they were really good for that full, how long was Morgan Riley out? That six week stretch there where they had Justin Hall and Merchandise Dana was their top pair and they were still performing. I like this guy Sheldon's looking like a genius absolutely and then it kind of flips a little bit so I would imagine that you'd want to you'd want to do your homework behind the scenes before you you just jump into hey Sheldon's a great regular

season coach yeah but he he has not found a way to get results or squeeze the most out of a lineup in the most critical time of the season. Yep. And then I think, oh, sorry, go ahead, Bonnie. You know, you remember when Mike Babcock was the coach of the Leafs, he had a long contract, Kyle Dubas gets the job, he's going to hire Sheldon Keefe.

And they said what Babcock wanted to happen and what Kyle wanted to happen was for Sheldon to be Mike's assistant coach for one year and then take over the American League team. But Sheldon didn't want to be an assistant coach. That was not kind of who he is or how he rolled at the time. So if you're holding out for that opportunity and that opportunity only i wonder if he would stick to that or let's let's be let's be blunt here sheldon would probably had would have had no other choice

to be an assistant coach if he didn't have kyle dubas fast track him i think that's very fair yeah i mean anyone though anyone who comes up in their 30s uh has a believer you know someone who it's you know you got to have someone believe in you and i don't think it's unique to him that he had one and other people those are far and few though. That quickly. For sure. Out of junior hockey to the pros and I know they experienced a Calder Cup with the Marlies

which was completely stacked and financially bought better than any other organization in the history of the calder cup they sunk so much money they had you're coming out borty get in here borty they had they had they had guys on he's he's crapping on your lawn right now big time contracts it was

about buying a calder cup i hear a personal vendetta i don't hear logic anyways anyways fellas you want to go but you want to go down that roster of how many guys were making what no no no i don't i don't feel interested but i i will say just going back to the sheldon keith thing about doing research how much of it like you're doing research on not being able to squeeze the most out of the core i mean it's a chicken and the egg situation here like your court your players still have to play and you have an extremely high paid core and like they haven't performed i mean how much are you doing that research and you're looking at the type of players that he has versus how what he's gotten out of them it's a hard thing thing to figure out. I don't know which side of it I would land on in terms of,

I mean, I don't blame Sheldon Keefe for their inability to perform in big games. I think he's gotten better as a coach for sure. No question. But there are some times when I question, why does he have the fourth line out there with two minutes to go in an offensive zone face-off? Yeah.

Or why is he starting that guy in overtime? Yeah. Fair. All fair starting that guy in overtime? Yeah. Fair. All fair. Like, I think... Why does he think Yarncrock can play on the number one line in the most important game of the year tonight? I cannot believe that's going to stick.

I don't think... I think you talk about Ralphie's five-minute thing, I think we'll be seeing Yarncrock up there for five minutes. Like, I don't know... I don't know what... What... I think you talk about Ralphie's five-minute thing. I think we'll be seeing Yaron Croc up there for five minutes. Like, I don't know. I don't know what. Okay, we're not all hockey coaches. We're not coaches in the NHL.

But we've watched hockey our whole lives, all three of us. We've played at high levels. None of us have seen one thing from Yaron Croc in nine games in the playoffs. Not a lick. I don't know. I don't know what he's done. Like, sure, he was great during the regular season. That was a month ago.

Like, I don't know how you can justify him. They were great sample size. The games have not been from the regular season. It's been from the Sunday. Anyways. No, no, it's fair. And I do think that's probably sometimes, you know, you're trying to build the best unit you can, not the best lines. And I think if you want to have a third line,

maybe you believe bunting with O'Reilly gives you pop on a line where Yarncroft and O'Reilly, you got nothing. It makes you too shallow. That's not a defense of the decision. I don't like it either. To me, you got to lean heavy on these guys. And they do, they're 11 forwards tonight, right? So, I mean, you're going to see a pretty heaven churn.

There's no chance Yarncroft plays more than 13 minutes tonight. Listen, you're starting the game, and your first two left wingers, your top six left wingers are Yarncroft

and Kerfoot. You tell me who's going into the corner to get the puck out for their line mates. Well, Kerfoot will go. He might not get it, but he'll go. He skates hard. He will attend the corner. He does. He does attend the corner, but he doesn't

really win a lot of battles. Well, that's what you need this time of year. I know. I know, know. So it's a hard ask. You got to win despite them. Not because of them. I miss Matthew Nyes. Can I say that? Yeah.

Bring him back. They knew. They waited for him. They didn't put him up on trade. Credit to them. No, not credit to them. Because we all traded him. No, no, no. No, not credit to them.

What do you mean? Not trading him? Yeah. Maybe you needed to trade him. No. No. Oh, yeah. Okay, you know what?

Oh, you mean to get somebody to replace? To win now, Sammy. Yeah, well, he was helping them win now until he got his head slammed against the ice with no punishment. Maybe at home would have helped a lot more. Yeah, no question. But did they have to... Would they have had to trade Nyes to get him? And Nyes... And $4 million

in salary. Nyes will be ready in two years, but you don't know if Matthews is around. You don't know if Marner's around. You don't know where your team's going to be in two years. I thought that Nyes was contributing just fine until he got elbowed in the head and slammed into the head his his head into the ice right like i don't think we

were all i thought we were all pretty happy with his contributions this year you're happy until you're not happy yeah i'm happy until you know it's playoff hockey but he wasn't ready for that i think he was i think he was showing that he was ready listen yeah four or five points when you go up against sam bennett and you're the one that's getting up and playing the rest of the game and Sam's the one down, then you're ready, Sam. Then you're ready. When you get headlocked and, you know, chokeslammed into the ice, it's tough for anyone to survive that. Well, he did it.

He did it. Wow. I'm not saying it's playoff hockey, but, like, I don't know how many guys in the league Are surviving a Choke slam That's right I don't know what an RKO is But apparently that's the move You could choke slam a guy that's been in the league for 10 years

And he might be out It's because he's a rookie that that happened Yeah it is 100% Sam He was in college two weeks ago. Now he's supposed to go against Sam Bennett behind the net and come out on top, Sam? Really? No, he's not supposed to get his head slammed into the ice.

He's a college kid who's asked to go and play on the number one line. That's BS. I think it's fine. That's not a good ask. That's hoping. He was contributing just fine. He was it's fine. That's not a good ask. That's hoping. He was contributing just fine. He was contributing just fine until he... Until they push their luck.

Okay? Until they push their luck. No, no. That's not what it is. Anyways. Sam. Want to talk about the Oilers? Sam, please.

Please. It was only a matter of time before they were going to get to a kid who was green. Until he got taken out by a hitman and didn't get suspended. It's good radio, though. Against a guy that knows how to play a little harder this time of year. Oh, yeah. How does he know how to play a little harder? Just be dirty as hell and get away with it.

Yeah. Hey, I don't hate it. I get why he did it. But I don't think him being a rookie had anything to do with him hitting it. A hundred percent it did. Okay? A hundred percent. Ron Brigadier, agree to disagree.

Let me plug my article. Can I plug my article? Plug away, baby. Go ahead. Today I wrote something. Well, really over a secret series of days. Opportunity analysis using the NHL's Edge IQ data powered by AWS. It's on what sets Edmonton's freakishly good power play apart from all the others.

So on Saturday night, the Oilers' power play went three for six, and their power play percentage got worse. It went down to 52%. That's after setting the all-time record the regular season. I just went through a bunch of the numbers, did a lot of video, a lot of GIFs, and just showed

McDavid. McDavid, boys. Skating around the zone, creating seams, all that. It's hell for goalies. It's up on sports.ca. You can check it out now. So what happened to the Oilers? They were in control, and now they're not in control.

As simple as a loss where they went, what, JBL 0 for 2 on the power play? That was shocking. Yeah. No, it really was. And, I mean, these playoffs have been weird, haven't they? Like, this second round in particular, it's like 8-4, 7-2. You're getting a lot of these games where one team just no-shows could use... I guess the Leafs don't get the same grace necessarily,

but the Oilers came out in Game 2 and really put on a show. So tough to be critical of, but I still think they're the better team in the series. I loved Vegas the other them. I still think they're the better team in the series. I loved Vegas the other night. I did. Yeah, you did. I loved them. They're definitely more complete. He came at them and at them and at them and he just

outsmarted them all. I think it just comes down to Aiden Hill, right? Is Quick going to be the backup now, I guess, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Brassoiswa that did not look pretty i i just i think if aiden hill can hold up it's just that decor is better i know mcdavid and dry so it's got to stay out of the box it's pretty much that that's simple for them if they

take three or four penalties in a game they're probably gonna get two goals against but man they're just a complete lineup with a ton of great players up and down it. That Chandler Stevenson may be the most underrated guy in the league. He's so good. I think if you had to take out Chandler Stevenson or Jack Eichel from that lineup,

I don't know if old Jack's wearing the jersey. I think he's not as important as Stevenson is to them. But Jack is warming up here. He's going. Yeah, it looks good. It's not a knock as stevenson is to them but jack is warming up here yeah he's going yeah it looks good it's not a knock on his plate in the playoffs he just i can't disagree with you jb for sure on stevenson the goal he scored i think it was the fourth one where eichel came down on that two-on-one and kind of looked off i think it was with marsh marsh or so who had a hat going there but he looked them off and this that zipper right inside

the bar underneath the glove that eichel wrist shot when he's kind of skating upright and he kind of shoots it in stride you know you kind of remember why he was a you know once thought about as a top five top ten guy in the league like he's really next factor for them i i i think vegas may win the cup where are you on uh where are you on skinner's and his uh ability to rebound here i think you gotta like it right like haven't they haven't they bounced back pretty well in the playoffs so far like i think you gotta you gotta be okay with it when did they lose and everyone was talking about him them going to jack campbell and they came back and got a big win from

him remember that that was just in the first round. So I think you've got to like the ability to bounce back from him. But it is, to me, it's like a glaring issue when the team is, you're down 2-1 and you're going, okay, we're going to need this guy. And it's just not a guy who's done it or been there, and that's not unlike the Leafs who we talk about all the time. But your eggs are in a basket that's pretty unproven. So, yeah, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt based on a lot of his play, but it is tough when a guy

hasn't been in these moments before and started to feel something great slipping away, right? Yesterday I mentioned I thought Seattle needed to go up or else there'd be a big swing. You could feel it early in that one. You could feel it early. You didn't like the call the three nothing call on uh i couldn't ben ben on grubauer i could not believe that stood

he i think grubauer initiated a little bit of contact maybe outside the blue like he kind of i think he tried to sell it but then the way he came across and he bought he bonked him out of the net i think he tried to sell it and that's what you think they went off of? Yes. I mean that he he if anything they probably thought there was incidental contact that that Grubauer tried to sell.

I think that's fair. I just you know what the conversation is with these with these things. It's the hardest thing to know. It's all consistency. Yeah I tend to think that they get a lot of things right and people make too big a deal out of it. Goalie interference remains one where it's like, I'm not sure what is happening on any given call.

And it's all like you'll never, ever have any consistency because it's always different people making these calls. It's all in the eye of the beholder, right? Like it's not black and blue. You have to have one guy that does it all if you want it to be the same. Like, it's always going to be different. So I thought last night I've seen way less called as goal interference. All right, here we go.

Oh, boy. Give me a score tonight, Sammy. Leafs done? I say four-zip cats. Oh. Come on. Let the guy score a goal. Four-zip cats.

JB? Three-two Leafs. Close one. They hang on, though. Joe Wall is the first star. I think it's fitting that they probably would lose in overtime tonight, the Leafs. Overtime loss? Just close. Close. that they probably would lose in overtime tonight, the Leafs. Really? Overtime loss?

Just close. Close. That's all we're going to remember this area is close. Well, they haven't really been that close. Close to what? The scoreboard? A win. I was going to say close. Scoreboard.

Yeah, God, they haven't been close to anything. They couldn't even never mind yeah i'm not gonna go after our after our tomorrow's gonna be an interesting show fellas after our tongue lashings for swearing on air i don't know a lot of it i'll be there jb i think of all a lot of it's already been said the last three days well i know you we came out was it monday and you like, I don't want to eulogize this team. And then we spent three days just scooping dirt. So they'll fight hard tonight.

They'll give whatever they have to give. It just may not be a heck of a hedge. What has they shown you in all of the years that makes you believe that? Yarn Croc's going to fake a chuck. I just don't see it. I just don't see it. Okay. You know what?

I can see us back again tomorrow. Okay. Enjoy the game, everybody. Game four. Real Kipper and Bourne back tomorrow to wrap it all up.