Real Kyper & Bourne - Flames vs. Rangers - Game of the Year?

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee catch up on the return of NHL action with potentially the game of the season so far between the Clagary Flames and New York Rangers, Jacob Trouba's monster checks and why fights are still necessary. Former Flyers defenceman Chris Therien joins the show (22:23) to discuss the NHL's shifting hitting culture, John Tortorella's letter to Flyers season ticket holders and what their rebuild will look like. Afterward, former head coach Ken Hitchcock breaks down the evolution of hockey over the last 20 years and what's spearheaded that change (41:12). Later, the New York Post's Larry Brooks shares his thoughts (1:07:29) on the Flames/Rangers game, the NHLPA's likely new director and who the Rangers should and can go after at the deadline.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. 

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. We're back. Glad you're all aboard for the next two hours. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Derek Brandeo, Jen Rolnick in with David. He's not even listening. Is this man? I think so. Are we going with Dave or David? I don't know.

We're going with Sammy McKee producing who, by the way, Samwise Gamgee, is now like far beyond just a producer. Multi-platform. He does it all now. Real Kipper and Bourne.

A golf show. He was on the Bunker show for an hour today. Oh, he already did an hour on the Bunker show? After doing... The morning show. Yeah. And when we had left yesterday, he had mentioned to me, you know, Kipper, I got to do a hit at 7 a.m.

And, you know, that's early for me. And I'm like, you've done those. And I'm like, yeah, I've done those. It's tough to pair up your mouth and your brain. It really is. And here is the proof in the pudding, as we say on Sammy. This is just too early for Sammy. Let's have a listen.

But I would say eye test wise, they are better this year. I think Lilligren taking a huge dump. A huge what? A huge dump? What just happened? I haven't had my coffee yet, so that's not going to happen. A huge dump. That's what you think of Timothy Lilligren and his great strides this season.

This is Lilligren down the stretch taking a huge dump, according to Sam McKee. It's a tough business, man. I love it. The puck dropped on my beer league game at 1030 last night. Fortunately, I can't relate to ever saying anything inappropriate. What happened yesterday with you, I mean, I do not condone with that type of language you used yesterday. No. Oh, first off.

I don't. First off, F you, Kipper. With second off, I did, I caught in a hot mic yesterday, and I apologize for that. I got to watch my language in here a little bit. Apologize to Dave Nones. See, the difference is for listeners and followers, like when I say it, when it's, I don't mean to, you were calculated on that one.

I did not think so. That just fell out of my head. No, it did. That was unprofessional. It did. I'll be better. Did you drop a few of those last night, watching the Rangers and the Flames last night?

Oh, boy. Because that was a fantastic game, and we're going to get into that. The hits, the true-by hits. We've got some sound bite, maybe a few Kippers Clippers with Gerard Gallant. In about 18 minutes, we're going to go to Chris Terrien, former Flyer defenseman,

big player in the Snow the Goalie podcast. And, of course, we'll get his thoughts on Tortorella and that really strange announcement of be patient with us, folks, letter that went out yesterday. We're going to get his thoughts. Please attend. Yes. Ken Hitchcock is going to join us in about 40 minutes,

fourth winningest coach in NHL history. We'll get his thoughts on the game today and maybe a few Brett Hull stories in the process. Oh, geez, yeah. Those never get old at all. And in the second hour, Larry Brooks. Tons to get into with him. Just mentioned the Rangers,

but also a lot of talk around the nhl players association uh ready to name marty walsh their next executive director uh the nhlpa and how this is gonna kind of play out here in the next little while so tons absolutely tons in the next two hours and wherever you're watching or listening sports net 590 the fan our youtube channel on sports net or sports net now itunes spotify we are so happy you are aboard yeah give me a good day even without the leafs here we are day two of the hostage situation or um day two of no leaf game yeah and uh we'll wait on that until friday But a game last night that really had the hockey kind of community buzzing last night. Yeah. Big time.

And it wasn't lost on many that that was the best game of the regular season. What didn't it have, right? You had offense. You had fights and hits and comebacks and it was really electric game you know what this is something to keep in mind for the you know the league when they look at the schedule when teams are exhausted they can't put that this is fresh teams coming off a break full of you know yeah and vinegar i disagree what do you disagree i disagree on the reason why you saw a game like that.

Really? Yeah. You don't think it was fresh teams? No. We do not agree. I think it was just two teams with a lineup that kind of can go down that path. Yep. In a million years, with all your bets,

would you put anything on that the Leafs could play a game like that or maybe six or eight teams? It's unlikely. It's unlikely that the Leafs could play like Calgary or New York. I mean, they could have a game like that. I don't think it would come naturally to them. Sure they can. No, they can't.

Zach Yastry's trying to fight Radko Gudis. It could happen. They had a couple of greasy ones this year. Oh, my gosh. But it didn't look like... That's not them, though. No, it's not. That's not them.

That's not their style. That's not where they're shaping up towards to go. They want to beat you skating around you, but not through you. Definitely their preference. I would agree. My point is, and this isn't to start knocking against the leafs i'm saying that there's too many teams not built like the calgary flames or the new york rangers that's that's all i'm saying yep that these games that we saw last night are far and few yeah and

listen they're awesome if you're a fan of the leafs you're listening to caprio say that and you're going yeah those teams are both worse than us in the standing so we don't care i'm not listen uh right valid point yeah 100 but you want to you want me now to watch for two and a half hours that's the point and feel like i can't leave my seat because something is gonna happen right i'm'm leaving the teams with more points in your standings and feeling like I won't miss something if I go to the fridge or take a leak. Yeah. The Flames for the first half of the year have been boring. I think Eric Francis said that on our show yesterday.

He literally was like, I don't know if you guys care about the minutia of this team because they are boring. But they can do this. They do have those guys. It's nice to see. it's a reminder to them so so are we now in in uh in in a place where they just choose not to and last night for whatever reason and listen i'm not throwing away your hey they feel good they feel refreshed yeah but it was way more than just feeling good and refreshed

that's a team that probably came in here for calgary and said hey if we don't pick it up now if we don't start off tonight in new york and play like our foot is completely down on the pedal we are going to be really embarrassed at the end of the year so let's get going 30 games that's why it felt like a playoff game because calgary maybe for the first time this season treated it like a a playoff game or a must win desperation game it's a fresh start for them like the sands of the sea or the of the hourglass are running out on their season they got 30 games left and they need more of this you know one thing that stood out to me is when they lost matthew kachuk the idea was that he was the guy who brought them dragged them into fights and cadre was going to do that cadre has played great hockey he was an all-star and all that but he hasn't been as greasy yeah at times

and you saw he greased truba behind the net a little bit and perhaps got his attention. And got the dominoes going. Right. And I think that's good for the Flames, whether they were on the wrong side of a couple of hits or not. Yeah. And it's fantastic. But, you know, again, just in a big picture,

like if we had games like that more often, I mean, we would look at the league in a complete entirely different light you know what's interesting is do you not i agree right i'll watch that regardless of outcome every time i think the mix of incredibly high skill and speed combined with the physicality was what made that game. No, no, no. Listen, let's be honest here. That game last night was fast and skilled. Let's stop it with the skill for a second.

I agree. Ketel's flying around out there. He's a binnage ad going bar down. I am not saying you're wrong here, Sammy, but what I'm saying here is what led the charge in this game. Oh, no question. Not the skill. No question.

But just the sheer emotion of a couple of big hits. And Kelly Rudy called the game last night, and I think there was one line that he used that just stuck out like a sore thumb for me, and that is, I could choose eight different goals to show you and I can choose to show some really good saves but this is what we're showing

you. Boom! Boom! Boom! That's it. And what leads the whole highlight reel? The hits. Right? All of it. That led last night's charge. I agree. so the greater zoom out there is how does the league encourage that you know because the teams themselves obviously the

ownership would like to keep that energy and at the teams themselves want to win games if a team like that wins the cup this year you'll get more copycats i don't know how does this sport how has the sport lost it yeah perhaps it's hard to do it when everyone's so fast it's tough to line guys up and i'm not this isn't about listen to me carefully everyone this isn't about going backwards it's not going to find uh goons again no it's not's not. It's about bringing more emotion and the physicality of what this game is all about. And it's almost as if we've been so scared of the big open ice hit.

And I get it, all the talk about CTE and all of it and the concussions and just that negative effect that it's had on our game and how it's made other people feel to the point where they, you know, there's some that lobbied, like, let's completely take out checking out of the game. Let's just go to the skill of passing and shooting. And I'm like, oh, my God, there's some games you watch and it's like watching paint dry. Like, am i watching a plant grow here so i had no interest so then i wonder if it's even possible to strive for that balance of protecting people and cte and concussions and

all that stuff which is a very serious element and you know you know talk to my dad about it he believes he's been greatly affected by it and i've seen it but at the same time the ufc exists it exists because people accept in some sports that they're okay with it and is that hockey players now i don't know i don't know what our game is maybe our game is lacking identity now that we're trying to figure out are we the clean skill game or are we accepting of some of the risk because i don't think you can play a game but i don't know not not between not a lot of people you know came out of that game last night worried about concussions or uh cte they just took it for face value that's kind of one of the first things i noticed is how physical was uh fighting and listen don't think

for one second i think i'm going to get away with, uh, uh, going two hours with you beside me. And we're not going to have a conversation on, are the fights needed after a hit? Right. We're going to go down there.

We are. We know that, but the, the, the, the trickle effect about, uh, you know,

did we cross a line? Did, did, uh, Jacob Truba cross a line here with the dangers of his hits? Like I'm watching last night and I'm going, you see that guy right there named Jacob Truba? That is our modern day Scott Stevens right there.

Nobody on this planet right now can make a better open ice hit than that guy. That guy should put videos out he should do clinics he should tell everybody this is the best way to throw an open ice clean check kelly rudy's a calgary flames guy okay i mean the first thing out of his mouth is that's a clean hit man i can't knock against it no i can't not there's nothing there that i don't see that i can say i've got a problem with you jacob truba and there's people who are listening to this going okay it's a fine defensive play you separate the man from the puck but it's so much more than that because intimidation is real in hockey and it is a physical sport and

that exists and so coming in against the rangers defense now you have to know who you're playing against it'll affect whether you dump it or carry it in the zone it'll affect how you react on 50 50 plays like the truba hit has a larger effect than just a good defensive play and i think that's lost a little bit when you have these conversations with the more pacifist fans who don't think it's necessary is the value of that hit is real and as someone who had some hesitation as a player i understand what it's like to be like i'm just not him i'm just i'm firing it in the other corner so i'm not going i'm not going down his side it changes how you play and it has strategic advantages too most importantly if you if you're in the NHL and the NHLPA,

it changes the way you watch. It brings you up to the edge of your seat, and you're more up not to miss shift to shift. And, you know, you want to talk about, oh, we need gambling to keep them engaged. No, you need that game last night to keep them engaged that's what you need forget about everything else ironically you need to get about players shooting pucks at a stupid surfboard or the over under just have a game like last night that you can present somebody who's paying two or three hundred dollars you got no problem at all moving forward i don't even have an argument i think it's a great point

what was why did cadre look at his feet when he was a foot away from truba can i ask you that you know why because 90 percent 99 of the time you don't that's why but he had the puck looked up saw it was Truba, comes over the blue line and put his head down. Did he see it was Truba? Mistake. Oh, yeah. Or he forgot it was Truba.

I don't know. Or he saw through Truba. Yeah. But, God, that was unbelievable. Do you guys want to hear what Daryl Sutter had to think of the physicality? Love to hear. It's very good. Did you see the proper response to

those hits from truba and blake sure i mean naz hit truba in the first period hard right if you watch that was the stage for it wasn't a physical game there's three four big hits they were all clean good hits it wasn't a physical game there's just three or four big hits people talking about you watching out there it's great though but you know that to me is is someone acknowledging that you know he doesn't expect his guys to go fight after that and just it's a big hit move on would you like to hear what galant had to say about the physicality in the game yes like i said tonight just it was it was Like, I mean, there was big hits. There was a bunch of fights going on.

And I don't know, first game back, maybe the guys are pissed off that the break was too short. I really don't know how to explain it. It's the first time I've been involved in a game similar to that tonight since I've been with this team, for sure. Oh, he liked it. Loved it. Well, I mean, look at Glenn's career.

I think he's going to like a game like that. The toughest guys going. Yeah. Yeah. So it comes to the big issue about fighting after a big hit. And Glant was asked about that, and he gave an answer. We can go off of it if you guys want to hear the question. Yeah, let's go with Glant, and then we'll play off of it.

It's a shame you have to do that every time you throw a hit, but I mean, you know, for me, the first hit was a good clean hockey hit and it wasn't a dangerous hit and, you know, you wouldn't think there'd be a retaliation for that, but there wasn't. And that's fine. But the second one, I mean, he hit Kadri pretty hard and it was a, you know, it looked like Kadri might have got hurt

and I understand guys standing up for their teammates all the time, but I just think sometimes it gets a little overreaction sometimes. You know, I mean, Trouba is a big hitter and people know that. But the first one I thought was a little overreaction for me. Anything, Kip? What do I think? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

Situational? Yeah, but it's not situational. It's really an individual preference. Like, you don't have to. People are right. You don't have to fight after a big hit. The question is

do you want to? And that's where Dylan Dubé says, yes, I want to. And I think there's more upside in doing it either for me as an individual or as a team collectively. And you can't take that away from him. That's his call. It's not yours or mine, and it's not you at home watching on the couch.

It's not even the coaches, to be honest with you, unless you want to follow a strict rule that he shuts you down on that, then that's on the coach. But that's not happening. So it's – Dylan Dubé's got to make a split-second call. He doesn't have review video. he can't go and watch it three times and say hey listen did he clip his head or not yeah you don't know side of just letting it go i don't know so i i agree i agree with that i think that here's what's changed for me is that

because we don't have hits like that with any consistency when you throw a hit like that it sends the message to the other team that you're looking to hurt them you're looking to put a licking on them right and that is a deviation from normal defense because nowadays we don't see it so when you do see a guy get smoked you think the guy is being a predator and you want to say to the other team if you want to try to hurt our players which certainly that hit by truba is not just separating a man from the puck it's trying to hurt a guy in a way that is legal and i got no problem with the team saying don't try to hurt our guys you know we're gonna fight about it we're gonna be upset you're gonna have to answer for it if you do try to put guys in the trolley tracks and light them up so yeah

you don't have to fight after every clean hit i i understand that but i do think because the game is different now and there's less of it when it happens it stands out as something that's like actively a pursuit of hurting my guy yeah that's i think that's exactly it it's like kipper nailed it you dylan dubay probably probably could have made a business decision there and maybe not gone after truba he was a little bit of out weight classed but i think we'd all be sitting here saying what the hell how do you not go after him if he didn't do it like can you imagine somebody did that to to marner and you know bunting skates away right we'd be in here eviscerating him so it's just like he has to to me i think the first one he's right galant like

the first one i don't think was necessary it was within the flow of play puck goes the other way tanev goes out of the game because he already had an upper body injury and he's out now he leaves the game maybe he didn't need to do that but the second one was such a flash point moment bucket goes flying like boys that was a crowd crowd goes crazy that's where you gotta jump in if i'm if i'm a c-mate i'm jumping them and even truba who's the best out there i mean he's human so he's gonna have thoughts in his head like if i do this i know there might be some uh repercussions from it. Be fun to be big and strong, like Truba, and not care.

Well, listen, sometimes you're playing three games in four nights and you've got a sore shoulder and you're like, nah, not tonight. That's human behavior. But if I know that I'm going to go out there and I have the potential to make a hit like this and no one's really going to come after me, I'm doing it a lot more. Sure. I'm going to look for it a lot more.

Yeah. And now it's a free-for-all. And I don't know if people truly understand that dynamic in a hockey game that, you know, you give an inch, they'll take a mile. Yeah. And then there's a domino effect. Well, if Trouba can do it and look like a rock star, well, maybe Lindgren's going to go, okay, well, maybe I'll get a couple of licks in here. And it just kind of ripples.

It can ripple in many different ways or you can force guys to say okay if i'm gonna go out there and make this hit uh whether it's clean or not uh i know that maybe someone's gonna challenge me it will affect my behavior moving forward yeah and obviously that's more relevant in a playoff series okay we're gonna welcome in chris terry and uh someone that knows uh on occasion what it's like to pay a price for a hit uh or two uh throughout his his career uh chris how are you pal thanks for joining us we're just talking about that ranger calgary game i'm not sure how much you saw of it um but we spent a good portion of the first 20 minutes of our show talking about how it gave us a look of a regular season game

that we haven't seen all season long. Kind of makes it interesting, doesn't it? Like, you know, again, and you know, Kipper, like we talk like this, we come on and again, there was a lot of guys in our area that just weren't,

they weren't savages by nature, and I didn't, I just thought, catching up a little bit, I actually had work all morning today, guys, but I know I heard a little bit about what went on. These are things, like, where you get those big hits and the retribution, but the thing is, is that, you know, you wonder sometimes, like, guys are actually starting to talk about, like, leaving the big hits alone.

Like, it's okay to hit a guy if it's a clean hit but for for years guys like me you had a guy wrong 20 years ago 25 years ago there was there was going to be automatic payback for that yeah and obviously it that has gone away a little bit did what were your thoughts on truba's uh hits last night and him fighting after were you fine with how the the physical element of that particular game last night? I don't have a problem with any kind of physical, you know, part of the hockey game as long as it's done right. I didn't, guys, as I said, I just followed up and here in a little bit

from what I was listening, waiting to come on. But again, like I don't, part of it, the hitting part of the game, were Trouba's hits dirty from what you saw them? No, clean. Clean, and that's exactly what I was saying, is if the hits are clean, why are we making a stink about it? There's not enough hitting in the game as it is anymore anyway. So if you get a guy that's out there and he's making great hits and they're clean hits, and there's retribution for it, I don't get it.

Because the league doesn't go that way anyway. I mean, we don't see line brawls like you used to see in the 90s over whatever because there was two fourth lines out there that were ready to mix it up over whatever went on. I have no problem, guys, with a good, clean hit, even if it brings people off their ice or they don't like the way it was made. But there has to be room for that. And there has to be, and I don't necessarily think that there has to be immediate retribution for it

there's enough dirty hits i bet you there's more dirty hits now than there probably was at one point in the nhl like long ago when we talk guys police the league themselves when we talk about uh the league sanitizing itself the last 10 or 15 years with all of this stuff. Has there been another organization that's been impacted so much because of this when it comes to their image than the Philadelphia Flyers? Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of guys have, Kipper. But you're right. So this was a team, and I talk about it all the time,

because historical elements of the Philadelphia Flyers was they were the true brethren, the true brotherhood of the Wolfpack, right, in the NHL. You can look at the Montreal Canadiens who won in the 70s. The New York Islanders had an edge. But it was the Flyers who were like, you know, you go back, they're the only all-Canadian team. Every member was a Canadian in the 74-75 season that won those Cups. But you're absolutely right. In terms of the national appearance from Canada, even the world appearance of what the Flyers were, what they stood for, the players or the personnel they

had, yes, there's no team that's been affected by it more for what their persona was, but also what their appearance has been to the brand here in Philadelphia. Absolutely, Kipper, what a fair statement to make, and I totally agree with that. And, you know, it's just not like Bobby Clark and Hound Dog Kelly were talking about. I mean, Jeremy Roenick, Darian Hatcher, these guys were like in the 90s, man. They were tough. They were vicious at times.

But hold on. The current Flyers team is kind of trying to do that with Tortorella, aren't they, with DeLaurier? And, you know, they've got a number of guys that are willing to go, no? Well, they'll go. I mean, it's just, you know, again, it's just a different, it's just different to me, guys, from the era. Like, I mean, every team back then had, I mean,

every team had three or four guys. It was a different sell. It was a different, but I've talked about this, those personalities in a lot of ways made up the charisma of an entire hockey team, and they could do that. Four guys with those kind of personalities could dominate a locker room because they were the guys that everybody gravitated to. And so that's why

those guys, you always hear a guy like Zach McHugh and people talk highly about him as players, the current player. But back then, there was teams fabricated on that. There were personalities. Kipper, we knew who you were. We'd line up and every team had guys. Kenny Baumgart.

You could go through lists and lists and lists of names of guys that made it kind of interesting and kind of put everybody, I think, on the seat of their pants. And certainly the Philadelphia Flyers, of all the organizations in the history of the sport, were the ones that probably reaped the most from that attitude or that lineage of the tough guys playing hard, the physicality, the brotherhood sticking together. They filled in every part of what hockey was and what we expected it and thought it was. And so absolutely, they've been the team that's been hurt the most by the loss of that in many ways and of what we've seen, guys.

And probably, you're right, 15 years, I think, it's been kind of like where we've seen it start and delve into where we are now so then you look at the you know the personality the collective personality of the flyers and how does that contrast i guess with the recent letter that john tortorella wrote to season ticket holders that basically says uh we know it's not going great, but please stick with us. We're going to find it here. Like, it feels like a pretty

mewling, I don't know. Desperate. Yeah, how do you feel about a letter to the season ticket holders? Well, listen, I'll tell you one thing. I like the job that Torch has done. In terms of getting the players to be accountable,

however they think they do that, whether it's his old brand of being a bully so here's one thing i'll tell you guys that letter could not come from chuck fletcher there's no way okay like absolutely there's no way that he could have sent that letter out and the fans again said oh great you know this is where it had to come from torts because he's the one that's really i think been the integral part of trying to get in guys wheelhouses whether you're young whether you're older here's the one that's really, I think, been the integral part of trying to get in guys' wheelhouses, whether you're young, whether you're older. Here's the other thing, too. I think it's fair.

And, you know, guys, I mean, we've talked through the years, you know, the last couple of years, and things have been really bad. Last year, my issue with this team was its effort that I saw on the ice. It was pathetic. It was a disgrace to watch. From a professional standpoint, guys, like, like literally they could have gone in the corner with a dozen eggs and came out every time with every egg intact that's what it was that's no compete so torts this year and i don't care about fighting it's i just want you to compete

in the corners in front of the net try to win a battle because that helps your team this year we've seen that you know we saw a competitive game last night against the islanders and a 2-1 loss here's the one thing i think torts put it together he's going to be here for four years he ain't This year we've seen that. You know, we saw a competitive game last night against the Islanders and a 2-1 loss. Here's the one thing I think Torch put it together. He's going to be here for four years. He ain't going anywhere. He's held guys accountable. He's made the team more interesting to watch.

The other thing in the city of Philadelphia right now, too, guys, this city in and of itself has gone through an amazing amount of success with other sports teams of late. The Eagles going to the Super Bowl, maybe one of the best regular season teams ever. I think they're going to win the game. The Phillies with a miraculous run. Major League Soccer going to the final game and losing in overtime. There's been a lot of good things that have gone on in sports in this city.

The 76ers, one of the hottest teams in the league. The Flyers are at the low end of that cycle right now. And I think Torch is saying, bear with us. It ain't going to happen tomorrow. It's not happening the next day. But we're trying to build something, and we're hoping that you're paying attention to what we're doing. That being said, I'm not making excuses for the personnel on the ice.

Yes, they work harder. They still need players in here, like playmaking players, difference makers that can make an impact on a hockey game. They're not there yet, but they're at least rebuilding a culture of what once was with hard work, yeah, some bruisers that maybe you don't see as much

on other teams with the talent level they have, but they're trying to put an impact back on the city, and I think the biggest part right now, Nick, was that they have to rebuild the relationship with the city. And I think the biggest part right now, Nick, uh, it, it kept saying was that they have to rebuild the relationship with the city. And I think that they've really made some significant strides this year with an attitude change and a culture, a return to culture that was once here that was not represented in the last three or four years, to be quite honest with you.

You know, the one thing I, the other thing is, I'm not as surprised, Chris, in terms of a letter like that, but just the timing of the letter, really the week of the Super Bowl with your local team playing a huge game on Sunday. This, to me me just reeks of an organization that is either desperate or really, really

scared about losing a fan base. Yeah, I think, well, certainly they want to get back to trying to get people in. And I've told them, I've been back in the office over there, and I've told them pretty frankly, like, you've got some –

there's more pain coming here. And Torch knows that. Like, if you're a flyer and you're being told, well, this is another year or two built, you're just being lied to. Like, you're not being told the truth. And I've told the higher – like, the business side, this is a process. And, you know, again, and I'm going to be honest with you, finishing between 17th and 25th in the standings does not help this franchise at all.

That being said, you can't ask guys to go in the tank. Nobody's ever going to do that. But you're right. I mean, it's an odd timing, but it comes after the All-Star break. It's the second half of the season. And I believe, believe it or not, guys, that's something Torch would want to do. I just think there's been so much success. I just think he wants to make sure. a half of the season. And I believe, believe it or not, guys, that's something Torch would want to do. I just think there's been so much success.

I just think he wants to make sure, yeah, and maybe there is part of him saying, hey, we need to make sure people still realize the Philadelphia Flyers are alive and well and that there will be a corner to turn at some point where they'll be relative again and somebody else will fall. And that's kind of, unfortunately, though, it's been going on since that knockout in the playoffs in 2020, and they're trying to find a beacon of hope and a ray of light somewhere to shine on this team because, you know, they've had misses in the draft. The Nolan Patrick thing, who knows if that could have been a better thing for the Flyers,

made them better up the middle. There's a lot of what ifs, a lot of contracts that are here that they don't want here. There's injured guys. They have long-term left. So that's going to be better up the middle. There's a lot of what ifs, a lot of contracts that are here that they don't want here. There's injured guys. They have long-term left. So that's going to be one of the things that they're going to have to do. And I think they realize they're going to have to salary dump and they're going to have to change a lot of the things.

But I think what Torch is saying, guys, just he's got to clean up the culture. And I think he's got a little bit of that from some of the brass and saying, hey, we need a return to what semblance of what was that represents this city. And we've not seen that of late. So I think that was part of the messaging for me was really not so much to a national audience, to the immediate fans here in the city of Philadelphia that I think we're growing tired of what they were seeing.

We're talking to former Philadelphia Flyer defenseman, Chris Terrian. Snow the goalie is the podcast and he's got a great book out called Chris Terrian wrote to redemption jb you got any follow-up on on the letter uh i got one more for chris go ahead if you're sticking with it yeah i'm gonna stick with it one more you had mentioned earlier that there's just no way that chuck fletcher could ever have gotten away with writing that letter so you tell me what that letter does to chuck fletcher in terms of uh you know how flyer fans uh move forward with chuck fletcher well i don't think i mean if you did if they do a poll like the elect the poll last year there was something like 96 said they were

dissatisfied with the job that he's done i mean let's see anybody could say that right like it didn't could be a critique of a general manager r Ron Hextall is going through, you know, his own stuff in Pittsburgh. So that changes and it goes on and on. But for me, Chuck Fletcher, I think had just lost the bankroll with the fans in terms of saying, Hey, we're going to do this. And here's what we're doing. Like after the summer last year, I think that he'd lost a lot of people because I still have fans come up with like, I don't want to, I don't want to hear Chuck Fletcher's name. You'll hear that from a lot of fans. Philly's a very, it's a very nitpicky niche city with what they believe in. And once that they made up their mind on someone,

it's over. They're all about torts. I can tell you that. Go look at social media, the fans, and just read it. The fans are on with what torts is saying and what he's preaching. And that's why for me, from a political standpoint and there should be no politics in sports but there is that letter could only come from john tortorella from where this team is sitting right now well i'll be the first one to say man the nhl needs the flyers back no questions asked they do they they absolutely do they're great they're great for regional tv they're great for and and listen like're great for... And I know it. When I go around and I travel and I did radio and TV for all these years and traveled,

there's some buildings that have 2,000 people with Flyers jerseys on it and other buildings. They are an important brand. They're a world brand. People that go overseas know who the Philadelphia Flyers are. No one's going to talk about the Nashville Predators in Europe, but people do know who the Philadelphia Flyers are all over the world. And I agree with you, Kipper. It's a good thing for the NHL when the Philadelphia Flyers are at the front of the pack,

at least prevalent, you know, and important to the league. And I think that that's really what Torch is saying, is that we're going to try to keep climbing. We're going to try to keep getting better players in here. But I'm asking for patience amongst a myriad of other really good things going on in Philadelphia right now in the sporting world. Well, at least they got gritty to hold the fort. You know what? They were doing so well.

Then I saw him with like a banana hammock on the beach last week. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go. The all-star game and that was it. But you know, he's become good for the kids, I think, and I think that he's not quite the face of the franchise he was a couple years ago.

Here's the problem with that. Kids don't pay the bills. They can bring people who do, though. Yeah, and Philly is that town, right? And you do get people who come up to you like, you know, I just want to watch the game. You know, I just want to watch the plots on the ice. And that's one thing, guys.

A lot of old school Flyer fans are still here, you know, hanging on to a lot of the history of this team. Hey, Chris, really appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this, man. As always, guys, thank you. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. You know what's a big hit, too? All-Star break is that mascot game.

Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. I mean, like, all kidding aside, I don't know when Gritty came in Five years ago Six years ago Sammy would you even know It's like

I think It was his draft year Gritty came in hot He was really funny He fell He had a bad spill What On one of his very first

Kind of public appearances And everybody's like Who the hell is this And oh my god That thing's like Horrible And get rid of it. And then he turns out to be the biggest star. Mascot star.

He celebrated his fourth birthday on September 24th of this year. I'm telling you. First scene in 2018. It was not a good opening night for him. You know, it's funny that you hear Bundy talking about, you know, the old Flyers fans carrying the history of the organization with them. Just want to watch the game, whatever. Like the league is actively trying to court the next generation of NHL fans. And, you know, you and I talked a little bit about ratings and NHL stuff for the All-Star weekend.

ESPN PR put out their ratings and stuff. And the growth is heavily in the younger demographic and with women. And they are seeing like a huge amount of growth in that particular area. And, you know, to the league's credit, they know they have to, they need sustainability. They can't just count on the old Flyer fans. No, but you have to be able to do it without completely isolating the majority of the people that are continuing to pay the bills. Yep. Right?

But these people are going to pay your next bills. You don't know that. Well, you need someone to. They're going to die. Look at the young generation around greater Toronto. They're not living here. They're not getting allowed. Because they can't afford to.

That's right. So you tell me how they're going to afford to go support the Toronto Maple Leafs. And I'm not saying that you don't have to do what you're doing, but just be conscientious of who still pays the bills to your product. Yeah, I think that's an important element too, is respecting the history and the fans who have been lifelong fans. You probably isolated a few of them on Friday night during your skills competition,

and that may be the price you have to pay. Yeah. You know how I feel about that, though, Kip, and we've talked about it, but just like some stuff's for you, some stuff's not. All-star game, not for us. Speaking of gritty in that that mascot game you know when they play today no so you thought it was a long night friday night after the the skills

competition they played after the skills competition like at 10 something 10 30 were people still there how many kids would stick around that's really just's really, just if I may say, that's dumb. Like, you know, all the kids are going, my kids are six and they go to bed at 7.30. 7.30. Who's sticking around? I'm not making it to that. No. That was a weird one. That was a weird one.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We got Ken Hitchcock, fourth winningest coach in NHL history after the break. How many wins? Don't look. Don't look. How many wins? 700. And 30. 8.94. How many wins? Don't look. Don't look. How many wins? 700 and 30.

894. So many. All right. Hitch, after the break, you're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Bourne. Breaking down the biggest trends in hockey, the Hockey PDO cast with Dmitry Filipovich.

Be sure to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's welcome in one of the winningest coaches in NHL history, JB. I gave you the number, 894. Let's welcome in Ken Hitchcock. Hitch, you couldn't get to 900 and just round it out for you? There's an age restriction that I passed about four years earlier.

No, I'd be honest with you, I've had enough. And I've learned enough even this time. Ken, I don't know if you can hear me or not, but we're going to try to get a different line. We're going to try a different line here and see if we can clean this up.

Sammy's going for his record of three dropped calls. We got the triple dunk. Kevin Curry said to say sorry, by the way. Oh, I don't care. Yeah. We're way past him now. That's old news. Yeah. Triple news yeah what is your betting guy what is the over under on sammy uh breaking his record of three dropped calls no chance three's a big number it's huge he's got to get two more here uh plus 1200. If you can get there today. Okay. Let's take two with Ken Hitchcock.

Uh, yeah, you got, you got to give me one more time on, on the reason why you couldn't find six more wins in your career to get to 900. Well, there was an age restriction and I'd passed it two years earlier. I was, I was Nick. I was cooked. I was done. And not the games and not the practices. I love that and still do. The travel really started to get to me at the end there.

Well, Hitch, thanks for joining us, first of all. And we know that you're doing some coaching consulting with the St. Louis Blues. Not sure how many games you're watching outside of the Blues, but we saw a real good one last night in Madison Square Garden between the Calgary Flames and the New York Rangers that brought great memories of, once upon a time, a game that could have it all.

Skill, good goaltending, great saves, and a physicality hitch that we aren't really used to seeing on a game-to-game basis here. And it was led by a guy like Jacob Truba. And there are times when I could look at Jacob Truba and maybe compare him to a choir boy compared to maybe a guy like Darian Hatcher, who you knew real well,

and one of the most vicious guys I've seen, right up there with the likes of Chris Pronger. But your overall thoughts on maybe either what you saw last night or what you heard about in that game? I watched every second of it. Oh, good. And that's hockey. That's the thing that I love. Oh, good. And I'm hoping that that's what we see for the next game. Because it's hard to distinguish any team from another until you see those teams.

And then you say, well, there's what you're going to need if you're going to win in the end. That type of game. Watching the change in the physicality of the game and how it's evolved over the years, you're a coaching consultant now., it's evolved over the years. You're a coaching consultant now. How has coaching evolved over the years? How has it changed now for how you dictate, you know, how to communicate to these players, how you want them to,

to get the message. You know, what's really changed just that you, you have to be comfortable as a coach explaining the end game before you start talking about the start of the game. What I mean by that is that the players want to know where they're going and if they can't swim, what's in it for them. And you can't be offended by that question. Yeah, we're going to have to drop again.

Oh, my God. Okay. Okay, listen. I asked him if he had a landline. He didn't. You didn't ask him if he had a landline. He did. You did.

And he didn't have one. I would say that is, I mean, I'm stunned. I'm stunned that Ken Hitchcock doesn't have a landline. That's okay. We are never to have a guest again on a cell phone. I don't care. We never have another guest. I don't care, Sammy, if you got to get two cans and tie a string to them.

I'd rather do that than a cell phone ever again. Okay. Let's not get Ken back. Listen, when he had said that I watched every second of the Cowboys in New York, I'm like, I love it. I was so excited. I was so excited to hear him talk about it. And it's like, nah, Hitch, can you kind of go on the roof maybe?

Just hold some tinfoil up. He said he's like, I'll move to a window, and then he moved to a window, and it sounded better, and then it just got bad again. What do you want me to do? Do you want to call him again? Yes. Do you want to try one more time?

One more time. One more time. Yes. Okay. And if he's on a cell phone. I really want to talk to Ken Hitchcock. It's on a cell phone. Just tell him to move one more time.

And besides, there's a selfish part of me that wants you to tie your record. That's what this is. That's 100% what this is. How? Yes. Oh, my God. Okay. And by the way, I mean, I talked a little bit about Darian Hatcher.

Oh, my God. Darian Butcher. I loved him. I wish. To play against him? No, to have him on my team. Whatever team I ever had. But he had that same type of mentality as Chris Pronger.

And that's like, you know, I'll do anything to win. Like, you played a little bit of that style you had a bit of that in your game was it hard going out for the game so for me when i'm standing in the hallway you know the ice is drying we're about to go out there whatever freezing we're about to go out there i'm like here we go this be fun. I'll fly around out there, find a puck, you know. Is it like, is the mindset heavy? You're like, oh, I got to go out there and get angry. No, believe it or not, it's not. It's like, you know, sometimes it's,

I wonder how the game's going to look and feel in the first five or seven minutes. And hey, listen, there's a part of me that goes, I want to score a goal. I want to make a goal i want to make a nice play well listen i want to be on a ton and all through your life and then i want to be a highlight i want to be on a highlight i want to be on the score sheet the next day uh when when when my my buds uh look at the summary yeah but as the game progresses and if it gets a little kind of greasy out there and all of a sudden one of your better players gets run, you know,

it's like, oh, okay. I guess we're doing this. My numbers get called here. Hitch is there. You know. Okay, Hitch. You know how badly we want to talk to you? We're going to keep calling you.

Okay. That's how desperate we are on this show. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We do really want to talk to you. And I got excited because, you know, you did mention that you did watch the game very closely last night. And the elements were very much in the wheelhouse of,

should I say, the mid-90s. I loved it, Nick. I mean, that game was, you couldn't turn it off. It was so, and it was really well played, and it was passionate, and they were going right through each other, and it was, you could feel the emotion right through the television.

It was fun to watch. And, you know, we were kind of getting your answer to my question about coaching today and the change in it. You're saying that you kind of got to start at the end a little bit now with younger players and say, here's where we're trying to get to and then sort of work through the process of coaching younger players?

Yeah, that's what's really changed, Justin. That's a big factor. Like they're, you know, they come, they've got a lot of people that help them get to where they're getting and they feel like they need to include those people so those people are asking questions players asking questions and you can't

be offended as a coach if you've got to give the right answers because um i find right now unless they know where they're going they're not going to buy into the level that you need them to buy into hey uh ken can i ask you when we talk about how the game's evolved in the last uh 20 years is it the the the chicken uh and the egg theory here did we we did we coach a certain element out of our game or did we run out of players willing to uh do sorts of things that we've been accustomed to in the past? You know what changed, Nick, was in the middle 2000s, like 2005 or 2006 after that, with the elimination of the red line, the game got stretched out.

And so the close quarter part that we all enjoyed and we love coaching in, players love playing in, it changed. The game completely changed because the game's now stretched out. Long plays are in. There's all kinds of room through the neutral zone because players are stretching it out for people coming underneath um you look at exits you look at toronto they're one of the best in the league at leaving early out of their own zone when you look at toronto and you look at a stop

a stop pitcher of them breaking the puck out there's never five in the zone the fifth guy is already at the far blue line and they stretch you out and so it's hard to get that body contact it's hard to get that grittiness part of the game because everybody's so far away from each other now i find that fascinating and uh yeah all of a sudden you have to have great skaters not not average skaters uh not even below average skaters but you need great skaters now on your third and fourth line but saying that exactly, the Leafs are also a team that's been looking for a fourth line for two and a half years now. Well, and you know what? They got, like, they're going at it the right way. Like, they play, they compete hard for pucks.

They win what I call second quick all the time. Like when Toronto turns it up and they've got that second quick game going, which means their second guy is in on contact before your second guy. They're really effective and they possess the puck all the time. So they've got the right element to win long term. And, you know, they're going to need a lot of people to do that because you've got to do it with four lines. Because you know what it's like, Nick, and you get into these big series against good teams,

first two lines you saw off. And then now it's up to three and four to do the job. And so you've got to have confidence that you can put your three and four out there against anybody because your first two lines are just going to saw off during a series. Yeah, you know that i'm interested to get your thoughts on the leafs ability to defend in the postseason because you know what

you're talking about is really it's worked for them in the regular season they've had great success um and they break the puck out really well you know they go back on retrievals they grab it and they're out of the zone you mentioned they get guys out of the zone they stretch you out they do that well against the heavier teams we're seeing boston You mentioned they get guys out of the zone, they stretch you out, they do that well. Against the heavier teams, we're seeing Boston, Tampa, they get on their D, they make contact, they make them stop the cycle. They have some trouble. Are they able to have success defensively

by being a team that seems to defend by not defending, by getting out of their zone? Yeah. For me, and watching Toronto, because i've seen a lot of their games they're they're very successful when they play defense in the offensive zone right and they they hold on to pucks and they keep possession i i think when you play teams like boston and carolina you've got to find a way to hang on to pucks longer because if you don't, they're going to burn you. Those two teams break out against pressure as good or as better than anybody in the National Hockey League.

And Toronto, to win that series, because there's going to be long stretches, guys, where there's not going to be any scoring in the game or the game's going to be tied, they're going to have to win the possession game. And that means they've got to have big enough bodies to protect the puck in the offensive zone because you're still going to give to win the possession game. And that means they've got to have big enough bodies to protect the puck in the offensive zone because you're still going to give up your scoring chances.

But if you can get that possession time way up there and just not even create a scoring chance, but wear teams out in their own zone, that's going to make it effective for you to score later in the game. Hitch, is it still a big man's game, an occasional mean guy that could do something like Trouba did last night? Is that still an element that has to be there

to raise the Stanley Cup? Yes, for sure, Nick. I mean, without the defined role players and the guys that are willing to play right through you, I don't see how you can win. If you watch Carolina play right now, I've never seen a team play that hard in front of the opposition net in my life. They've got chaos every time they're in the offensive zone.

You've got chaos at your own net trying to defend these guys. And you watch them use the back of the net countless times just to wear you down, and then they attack and i think that's the winning style in the playoffs right now is how long can you keep it how long can you keep them defending and wear them out so they tire and then that's when they start making mistakes so the st louis blues are a team that you're obviously close to um and you know they kind of seem stuck in the middle a little bit this year in terms of where what direction to be going what are your thoughts on how the the blues season has unfolded to date

i would say one thing that we've noticed is that we're we're we're a team that is situation motivated and that's not gonna be successful at the end We've got to get back to our own game and motivating our own game. We play hard and well against teams that we either fear or respect, and then when it's just another night and you're just playing hockey, we seem to fumble the ball there. So I think regardless of what happens, we've got to get the culture back where we're competing at a high level every night and not based on the situation whether the

coach is mad or we've lost a game that we should have won and that gets our attention we got to get our own attention and we got to really turn our focus inward and i think if we do that you know we can build a culture that we're back on stream again but when your situation motivated it's a hard ball because the coach can't catch it and the players can't keep up to it and it's really hard to be competitive if you're not consistent we're talking to ken hitchcock fourth winningest coach in nhl history uh hitch uh you on occasion throughout your coaching career had a few uh characters to say the least i'll name uh holly i'll name jr i will name eddie belfor where is bennington in that mix he's right up there i uh there's a part of me that really likes this kid a lot uh but there is i do too there is a line right yeah and you know what um part i like

about him is he crosses the line and then drags everybody into it you got no choice and you gotta love that and that that is so much like eddie like eddie would just cross the line and the next thing you know you were in this bloody battle. And he started it. And you end up, you love him. And to me, Binner is a great teammate. The players love him. They know he's got a fuse. And when it gets lit, then everybody's got to hang on for dear life because you're going to get dragged into it whether you like it or not.

And I just think you have to be so impressed with his competitiveness. And, you know, you go as a coach, you say, now, listen, Ben, you've got to cut that out. But when you close the door, you're smiling. And that's just who he is. He's a really highly competitive guy that's a really good goalie in a game where, you know what it's like, Nick, right now, size matters in the net. And he's not the biggest guy, but he's really ultra competitive and never quits on a shot I think that becomes contagious

it's personality important in a team you know like do you need to have some characters like that I feel like some teams today lack that a little bit and some guys that just I don't know bring their teammates into the fight with a little bit of their own flair? You know what, Justin? I think that whole element of a game I wish was back, where you didn't like another player. We don't talk enough about the guys we don't like and the personalities. You go back and every team had guys like that.

The fear of Darian Hatcher going just off and who knows what would happen. That's an element that makes you really nervous. Like if you're playing against like for me, for us in the West, it was always Kevin BX because he was this wild card. I said to the players one day, I don't even know if BX can skate backwards because he just attacks us all the time. And you've got to circle his number and his name because if you fall asleep when he's on the ice, he's going to step up and kill you. And those type of conversations, you know, towards the end, especially you weren't having those. Everybody was playing the game in a normal fashion, but the wild card guys they were effective and you know bx was really

effective in that game very similar the way chelio was played it's one more for me before we let you go and it uh it's around the trade deadline how many times in your career uh did you know that the trade deadline's coming and then you just knew that there was going to be a change or you're going to get a little bit of help? Today, I think there's a level of frustration with all of the coaches knowing that they're in cap hell and

this is what it is and you better make the best of it. Is that a fair thing to say? Yeah, you know the mistake that I made was hoping for mr goodbar to show up because i found that what what what helped me and i we always talk to the general manager about this i said you can ask me about where player x fits in on our team but don't tell me who's like getting let go i felt like if you knew who was possibly on the

block or was going to get traded or might get traded and what you know what the player transaction was going to be I thought sometimes you stop coaching that player that you had and that was a big mistake so for me I found it to be a very nervous time for your team and even teams that were really high up in the standings, some of the players that were nervous had no business thinking like that. But it is a really nervous and tight time for players. And it's like a biggest relief, Nick, when you get through that thing. Oh, yeah, 100%.

One more quick one. Best trade deadline deal for you in your coaching career uh i remember this story bob gainey came to us and said what do you think we need this is in 1998 to get over the top you know we it was us detroit and colorado and we said oh we need a second line miss and a first line miss or whatever. And he sent us Scrooge Linden King. And it was two fourth line guys that ended up being third line guys. They just brought our team together and were the glue of our hockey club.

And it was one of the best trades. And these were just role players that came in and did an amazing job and just brought the camaraderie to our team to a whole other level and he knew that that's what we needed and we were asking for much more but what he brought us fit perfectly it almost sounds like it's a coleman goudreau in in tampa bay but i was just thinking how much the least would love scroodlin and keen that would be unbelievable But those type of players today cost first rounders now. Do you remember what the package was to get them?

Was it expensive? I thought it was just a face-off in the other zone. I'm not sure, though. Hey, Ken, really appreciate the effort. You've never sounded better to us. I can tell you that. We really appreciate your patience with us've never sounded better to us i can tell you that uh we really appreciate your patience with us okay thanks guys okay thanks it's pretty good that was pretty good really good i could listen to him all day oh listen uh sammy's just thinking the

audio gods no record broken sammy i your three drop calls intact. Honestly, from two perspectives, I just didn't want to get strangled like Bart Simpson in the break by Kipper. I'm ready to come through the glass, bud. And then the second time, that was awesome. Yeah. Guy watches. He's got opinions. Bad news for Hitch.

I'm aware he watches the Leafs now, and we like to talk about the Leafs. He may be getting calls. And just him talking about how much he loves carolina and the chaos and the just there's a reason that guy is the fourth winningest coach listen to him talk about hockey i'm sure yeah how much do you think berube's been in his ear i bet you he's talking to him a lot i'm interested in what he said about me right yeah if you've got that guy near you yeah i'd be asking him everything interesting strength he pointed out in the Leafs.

He talks about second quicks, as in they're the second guy into the pile. So both teams have a guy in the pile. They got the next guy quicker than the next team. And that keeps the pucks in the pile. It keeps you in the offensive zone. That's a good observation. That's important.

Well, you know, it made me think real uh clear on uh you know that that tipping point of of our game and it is red line in or out you lost the two-line pass and how much quicker did the game get and ultimately was it a good thing or or not a good thing because because it did change sorry yeah no you did change your third and fourth line to like you need high-end skaters yeah to be on your fourth line you can't get in when with a puck moving that quickly you can't get in on a four check on on a fourth line if you're not a great skater. And listen, I still push for Wayne Simmons compared to what I've seen for Leaf options. But that's an issue for him. You're right.

The whole game used to move as a collective up through the zones. And now when you have no red line and you stretch it out, you have to be able to cover that ground with your feet. And so to your point, to get in on pucks 100%, like that's I've loved fourth liners that are younger because of energy and ability to go. You know, you're more like a dog chasing a tennis ball at a dog park

than you are this guy in a battle. This is where the Leafs have excelled. Is that to Ken Hitchcock's point, like, they get out quick. And there are times early in the season where it just wasn't in sync. And the stretch passes were timed well.

They were guys stopping up. But then they got it together for a good portion of the regular season, and they once again became a very quick team. Here's the one thing I do not like with no red line is sometimes it can look to me like a frigging ping pong game. Chip and chase, and as quick as some of these guys are, they're still not fast enough to get in there yeah and d are so good now so fast themselves they get back on pucks and the pucks in and out

in and out and you're looking and you know that you can see the crowd at center ice looking like they're at wimbledon more than they are an nhl game so when i would tag events for the marlies one of the things i would do is every time there's a regroup i hit you know the r button whatever and then a neutral zone four check. I hit the N button, whatever, and it would be regroup, neutral zone four check, regroup, neutral zone four check. I used to call it the neutral zone swirl. You get caught in it for 45 seconds at a time.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We got Larry Brooks, a longtime NHL writer for the New York Post. He's going to join us. We'll get some thoughts on his views his views of the rangers in calgary last night uh also of course a lot of talk around the national hockey league players association having a new uh executive director coming very soon and his name is marty walsh we'll get his thoughts on that and more when we come back to Real Kipper and Bourne. Smart takes on the biggest stories in sports.

The Fan Drive Time with Ben Ennis. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just waiting on Larry Brooksry brooks from the new york post uh a lot of talk about uh the nhlpa and uh not many people know about uh marty walsh yeah so let's bring in larry brooks uh we'll talk about uh the nhlpa but uh first and foremost it seems to be the be a good portion of our show has revolved around the game at Madison Square Garden. Let's welcome in Larry Brooks now. And just your thoughts, Larry. And the one thing that stood out for us throughout the hour and 20 minutes we've already been on air is how much the game last night in New York against Calgary didn't look like a typical game we see during the regular season anymore.

No. Hey, good afternoon, gentlemen. It was a fun night. It was a wild game. It was kind of a throwback game. There was a lot of edge to it from the start. I think the fact that it was the first game for the Rangers in 10 days and the first game for Calgary in nine, played into it.

It was pretty sloppy. There were a lot of mistakes. There was a lot of open ice, but there were wild momentum swings. There was a delayed penalty that was going to be a major that was rescinded. There was a goal that was reviewed to be a major that was rescinded there you know there was a a goal that was reviewed on a off the skate obviously there were the the two truba hits followed by fights each time legal hits where he had to then drop his gloves there was a big hit on lucic from sammy blay it was a wild game and and you you know, there were some spectacular, picturesque goals, too.

I mean, if you check out Zibanejad's game tire, check out the pass from Panarin. I mean, you know, so it was a game that never really stopped. You know, it got going, and there were some delays for video reviews. But it was a game that from beginning to end was, you know, there were twists and turns and, and it was like an old time rivalry game, you know, between a team that hadn't played this year and, and, and, you know,

only plays twice. So it was, it was different. It was. And, and Truba said, you know, when, when Truba has these games, there's a different feel to them. It does feel back to the 1990s, and for me, back to the 1970s, and even earlier than that when I was watching as a fan. So it was a good one last night. If you could bottle that one. Yeah, no kidding. The TV ratings probably wouldn't be talking about TV ratings.

Yeah. Well, it's funny. It feels like they need that Trouba to drag them into these fights. And this is a team going into this year that had high expectations off their playoff performance last year. A little bit of a slow start, but are you starting to see that Stanley Cup contender emerge again? Yeah, I am.

I don't think they're in the upper echelon if you you know if you want to divide the league who would you put at the top you put boston right and i guess carolina you know then you'd have carolina do you do you believe in in the western teams i'm not sure um you know toronto's a good team i i'm not sure if the Rangers are there, but I know they're the next maybe half step below because they're a little bit more than the sum of their parts. They're not a perfect team. You know, they've got deficiencies, but I think everybody in the league does.

It's a difficult league to mend deficiencies because of the cap. You can't just go out and get someone to fix your problem. About half the teams are capped out already and have been capped out most of the year. So, you know, you deal with your flaws. And I think the Rangers, it took a long time for the Rangers to find some consistency in their game, to find some chemistry in their game.

You know, they lost some pretty important players. They lost three of their top six forwards from last year. I mean, Pop and Petrano and Strom were in their top six last year. They all left as free agents. And so they were filling those holes. And from the beginning of the season, I mean, from the off season on, it was clear that the Rangers were going to need their younger players to take a step this year because, you know, of the absence of cop who was playing top six last year when they got them at the deadline and Petrano. And then

you're, they were going to need Trocek to be able to somewhat duplicate the chemistry that Strom had with Panarin. Well, that hasn't happened. And it took a long time for the kids to start to develop, to take the next step. And we talk about kids, you know, they're young adults, obviously. But we're talking about Philip Hedel and Cako Kako and Alexi Lafreniere. And the last two, Lafreniere and Kako, get more notice because they were the first and second overall picks in the draft in 2019 and 2020. And it took a while. And they played together last year during the playoffs. They ignited the Rangers.

They didn't seem to have the same kind of chemistry when they were put together the first time around. Then the second time around, you know, it was a little bit better. But now they're together, and they're playing, the three of them are playing their best hockey of their career. So they have now become the Rangers' second line. And that means that Trochek has now slid down to a third line role, which is different. It means that Panarin is playing with Zivanojad, which is different. So it's a different kind of mix.

But, again, you know, they understand how to win. They're a pretty resourceful team. And I think they come at you with their top four on D. When you've got Fox and Lindgren on one, and you've got Candre Miller and Trouba on the next, you're set up pretty well, and they've gotten good goaltending. Not great. Shesterkin has not been at the level he was last year, but he's improved as the season goes along. I can see them

winning a four out of seven from just about any team in the league. I can also see them losing. It's that close, but I think they're going to have a shot going in to make a run. I do. We're talking to Larry Brooks, long-time NHL writer for the New York Post around the

hockey world. His Slapshot column is a must-read. Larry, as far as the National Hockey League Players Association, it just seems like it's all but rubber-stamped that their next executive director will be the U.S. Secretary of Labor, Marty Walsh. It sounded to me, Larry, that maybe even a few weeks ago, this was not on the radar. But as far as on the scale of coming out of left field,

where is this on a one to 10? Yeah, I mean, this is Carl Yastrzemski, right? Yeah, I mean, actually, it sounded to me about a week ago that Mike Gillis was in pretty good position to get this job. And I'm not sure what happened. I believe they were the two final candidates. I think there was a spirited discourse. I'm not sure how the vote went exactly, but I'm not sure. I mean, you know that Walsh has an impressive background, obviously,

but I don't know. And, you know, I'm hoping to talk to a couple of guys in the next couple of days. But, you know, I don't know what his philosophy is. You know, is he going to be adversarial? Is he going to be a let's try and get along and grow the pie kind of guy? I don't know. It's a tough job. And, you know, there's a lot of work to be done, and there's work to be done immediately if the NHLPA and NHL are going to fashion an agreement to increase the cap by more than a million dollars next year. And it seems to me that it's absurd not to. You know the money is coming.

They're going to be reasonably close to paying off the escrow debt. The numbers to me, it's kind of like voodoo economics. They talk about left field. They kind of come out of left field. Nobody really knows what the escrow debt was and how it's been paid off. But if there's a flat cap again next year, which Gary now has indicated it looks like that's going to be, it's just strangling the league. It just strangles the league. It strangles, you know, the top 12, 15 teams in the league.

It strangles guys over the summer. Why not smooth it out? You know it's going to go up by another, you know, by $4.5 million in two years, $4 million in three years. So why not smooth it out? You know it's going to go up by another, you know, by $4.5 million in two years, $4 million in three years. So why not smooth it out and, you know, increase the cap to three, three and a half, you know, by three and a half next year and three and a half the year after and three and a half the year after that? And I think that's, you know, I would hope that that was part of the discussion when Walsh was making his presentation. Like, you know, how are you going to approach this? And, you know, I think Don Feer was far less adversarial than people expected. And I think there was somewhat, I think there was a fair amount of angst over the way the PA has operated over the last number of years. And so, you know, is this, you know,

I know that they were talking about looking at people who had a labor background. They were looking at people who had business background because, you know, it's almost on the players to increase revenue. You know, they're employees, but they have to grow the pie so they can get their 50% of it. So I'm not sure what Walsh actually, what his philosophy is going to be on this, but it's an interesting hire.

Do you think they could run into an issue? Reading some of Frank Cervelli's reporting today, Walsh has ties from his political background to Jeremy Jacobsbs the most powerful owner in the nhl who um you know had been putting quite a bit of money into walsh's campaign it sounds like throughout his years in in politics is that the sort of thing that could derail this or does it sound like one that doesn't make a difference if the league or if the players want them that's the way it's going to be. Yeah, I'm not educated on that.

So I probably shouldn't speak to it. But I would imagine that this is not going to be, you know, if he's gotten to this point, it's probably not going to be, you know, it's probably not going to keep him from getting the job, I would think. But honestly, I'm just not educated on that. I know where you are educated, and that's labor disputes and hockey over the history. So tell me something. This is, Larry, three years away from a collective bargaining agreement

opening up again. Is this really heading towards that? this uh a big picture kind of thing would that be the first and foremost on the players minds or are we in a situation where hey guys the fight's over man they're never there's never going to be a shutdown ever again you can't go anywhere with a 50 50 fans won Fans won't buy into it. There's no appetite and no patience for the fans to ever see this game shut down again.

I think there's no patience. I think that's true, but I think the fans always come back too. I mean, they're like a captive audience, honestly. And I shouldn't even say they.

You know, it's we. I mean, you know, people are angry. And then the next year or in the middle of the season, you know, the season starts. And what are you going to do? You're not going to watch. You're going to punish yourself because you're upset. So I don't know. But, again, I would think, I would hope, I mean, Nick, if you were playing, wouldn't that have been the first question?

Well, we have a CBA coming up in three years. What's your position on this? Are we going to be militant? Are we going to, you know, are we going to look at this at the margins? What, you know, what can we do? Because I don't think, listen, the NHL was threatening to shut down during the, you know, during the pandemic. It was a tough negotiation. And I'm not, you know, and I've written this,

I'm not particularly cheerful about how the agreement was crafted on the PA side. I think that the union bowed to the escrow hawks. I think that there was a real tilt toward older players on expensive contracts who were tired of losing escrow. And I think that the majority of the players got shafted on this deal. I do. You know, I mean, you could see it, the flat cap, the flat cap, the flat cap. There's no, there's no room for free agents. There's no room for group twos. I mean, so the entire middle class gets squeezed. And so I would have think that that would have been part of the presentation. Here's what we're going to look for. Because the NHL is always going to use the hammer.

They're never going to come out and say, oh, no, we're not going to. Don't worry, we're not going to lock you out. Don't worry, that's not going to happen. You know, that's not going to happen. That's always the hammer. And that's always what the NHLPA is dealing with, knowing that they're facing an adversary slash partner, but I did more of an adversary in certainly collective bargaining, who will shut the business down. So, you know, that's, and I understand that, you know, it was Don Fear was in a difficult position the last time during the pandemic when they redid the agreement, they extended it.

I get it. It was tough. I didn't like it at all. But it was a tough negotiation for him. It's going to be tough for Marty Walsh too, because they have, you know, again in, in the NHL, they've, they've, they've, they've got a force that just will shut down the business if they don't like the agreement. So it will be very interesting.

I'm not sure it's the other thing too, is that you have to educate the players. And, you know, the players in this generation are not. They're just not. They're not invested in the labor negotiations the way guys in the 90s and 2000s were. They're just not. You know, they're making an immense amount of money. Everyone's doing well.

And it's just not in the forefront. I mean, there are players who are just not educated in the history of the union, who just are not educated in the contemporary back and forth. And that is one of the major jobs, I would think, of the Players Association's administration to get players more involved and, you know, to have them understand what the CBA is and what it means. Everyone younger than 40, Larry, is just like, yeah, just give me the term.

I'm not going to read the terms and conditions. You just tell me. Tell me what the situation is. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Last question for me is just uh you'd mentioned those big name guys on big tickets i want to get your thoughts kane taves new york rangers will we see that this season either one of those guys wearing the uh red white and blue you know i don't see

taves no um you know and i don't see where he plays on this team. Honestly, they've got Chocek now as their third-line center. I think they're going to ride with Hedl. So I'd be surprised, Taves. Kane has always been the guy. Because of his experience with Panarin in Chicago, it always seemed a natural fit. I started writing about it last December, but I thought Kane,

but what I believe is that Kane made a lot more sense for them last year than this year. You know, they would have had the two playoff runs as opposed to one. They would have had a full season with them. And now I think what's changed a little bit with them is the fact that Panarin's playing with Zibanejad. Zibanejad is now just, you know, it's hard to play with Panarin. You know, it's very hard to play with Panarin.

And Zibanejad is just learning how to play with Panarin. Now are you going to bring in Patrick Kane? I'm not sure. And, and of course the cost is, is, you know, is, is going to determine, um, I think, you know, to a large extent what, what the Rangers do, they're not going to be, you know, they're not going to give up any of their kids off their roster. Um, they, they're not going to trade Brennan Offman who was their first round draft pick a couple of years ago so what they have to deal basically is Zach Jones

and Vitaly Kravtsov and a first rounder I don't know that that's their biggest need at this point when I look at them I think they need to bulk up because when they lost their fourth straight to Tampa last year in the conference finals after winning the first two, they could not get to the net. They couldn't score. And they had scorers, you know. They could not get to the net. And they could not wear down the Tampa defensemen over the series.

They just weren't big enough. So I think they need to add a little size, and I think they need to add a little meanness, and I think they need to add on their lefty. They're really very thin on D. They're terrific in their top four. Braden Schneider is an outstanding 20, 21-year-old right defenseman who plays on the third pair, but they're using Ben Harper on the left

on that third pair. He generally doesn't play a lot the last 10, 12 minutes of close games as the Rangers like to cut down. I think they could use a lefty, and I think they're looking for a big, physical lefty, and I think they're looking for a big, physical lefty. But their other issue is next year's cap pretty much limits them to trading for rentals. They have – I mean, they're in such a bad spot for next year. It's almost unbelievable.

Larry, the Rangers and Toronto. So is there any scenario at all where you see Kane renting himself out, knowing that he can't stay? Like once you go to New York, man, you don't want to leave. Yeah, he can't stay. Yeah, he can't stay. And he can't stay in Toronto. It's impossible. No, it's impossible.

Now, you know, would he like to, you know, he obviously can direct the trade. I mean, he can tell the Blackhawks, listen, I want to go to New York, and I'm not going anywhere else, and I want you to take their best offer because I don't want to go to a team that's gutting itself, you know. So I think it could play out that way, but I don't know Patrick Cade. And, and again, you know, he played with Panarin a long time ago, 15, 16, 16, 17. So it's a lot of, you know, it's a lot, it's a lot of players.

Well, Larry, we really appreciate your feedback, man. Thanks for doing this. Yeah, sure. thanks for inviting me yeah larry brooks nhl writer for the new york post uh interesting thoughts on uh pat kane and of course uh what we think is uh gonna get rubber stamped very quickly so larry was there when you were there marty walsh as executive director. Yes, Larry's been there forever. Yeah. I mean...

With the Post, too. Yes. Nine different papers, like Larry, the Post. And we can recall, like, Larry's most famous moment in his career. Go on, get the f*** out of here, then. I am. You know, what am I saying, Brooksy? i guess that's what i'm saying brooksie

i guess that's what i'm saying brooksie oh my god that was awesome was that was awesome so uh i i mean i've been around as a player in the players association and watched these various uh uh i'd lived through a strike. I went through a lockout. I don't think that people necessarily have to worry about a new guy coming in to try to out-muscle Gary Bettman. You will never, ever out-muscle Gary Bettman and the owners ever again.

So let's just get that straight. You know, Larry's talking about how the league would just shut down again or that's their ultimate threat. Are they that? Surely they know it would end poorly. I don't think, JB, there's anything to shut down for. Right. Right?

It's just not there anymore. Like you've gone to 50-50. Yeah 50 yeah now does the nhl want to bring them down to 44 42 like how many fans would sympathize with the nhl owners for going below a 50 percent yeah like there's nothing more fair in life than 50 percent you know and of course on this show I get 70, you get 15, and Sam gets 15, but that's different. Well, that to me, that's sort of fair. 15 times high. Given what we deserve.

15 times high. So what is this really about? Well, this is going to be about the smaller stuff. It's going to be about, okay, what can we do to get a new guy in there that might have to go and fight for us a little harder on uh micro stuff not macro micro yeah but you know i mentioned it to brooks just because i read it in uh frank's article interesting to hire a guy who seems aligned with an nhl owner previously i mean if this guy's buddies with ownership, is that a great position to go into? No, optically it's not,

but we don't necessarily know the relationship. No, we don't. You know, the one thing that strikes me, and you mentioned this, I think he's one without a law degree. When was the last time someone was in that position? No law experience, no hockey experience, tied to an owner.

What am I missing? I don't know. I don experience, no hockey experience, tied to an owner. What am I missing? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anything about it. I don't know how much he's tied to him. We'll have to, I don't know, either hear from him or I'm sure someone in the media will address it. I can't believe that you were the mayor of Boston

and you have no interaction with a very powerful person like Jeremy Jacobs in Boston. So I got to think that there is some sort of relationship, but how is it going to play out with his new job? I don't, that wouldn't make me nervous right now. It wouldn't. I mean, he's a pretty sharp guy, I'm sure. Well, obviously, you know, like he's on Biden's staff. Like he left some work to be on Biden's staff for a while and then left when he didn't get named chief of staff.

Like he's that high up with the current president. So the man clearly has some influence. There will be some stuff that he can go in there and kind of shake it up. Now, you know, Donald Fair is out because he just lost his ability to go in there and kind of fight for the players a little bit on smaller stuff. And I think the biggest one and the one that kind of I scratch my head on still is, like, where is the league going with international uh uh revenue right where is it like where is the game plan where are we you know where we're going of yeah

i know where we're going good day mate good day how about some shrimp on the barbie where are we going, JB? Australia. We're going to Australia. Well, hey, I mean, I don't know. There might be some money in Australia, but, like, where's the game plan? Where is the thought process? You know, not, hey, let's throw a dart on the wall and we're going to Australia, but, like, can we have a, a four,

a six, an eight year plan on where we see Australia, not on an exhibition game, but in four or five years. I know. No, I mean, if you want,

if I'm a player, we're talking about Bettman was just talking about respecting individual players choice. My, my individual choice is to not start my NHl season on the other half of the planet where you're going to come back and be jet lagged and you know like it's terrible it takes a while to recover from going to play to live in australia for 10 days they're they're pulling out don johnson suits for mitch marner to wear they can get them to go to Australia and, you know,

cook some shrimp on the barbie to sell the game. I don't know, man. That's a tough sell. Just send them to, like, the Yukon and Northwest Territories or Halifax. The shark season was over before they left Czechia this year, wherever it was they played. Australia? I got a DM from one guy one time that's like,

I'm from Australia. What would you think of a hockey down here? So that guy? Gonna be thrilled. Listen, my cousin knows the GM of Australian ice hockey team over there. Yeah. Really? Oh, it's real.

He played the whole kit and caboodle. How good's the level? Could I go there and make a D team? I think you would have a chance is my understanding. Yeah, you're better off trying to golf. I actually considered doing it in the summers here when I was playing college hockey. Go down there and play their winter.

Now, I did hear that, you know, not the sense of urgency, but getting him named as quickly as possible can get the talks started for changing the CBA before, I guess, June 30th. That's the date on getting the salary cap up. And that's something the players want. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Gary and the owners.

Everyone should want that. That is going to happen here. But I think I had heard earlier that, you know, some people were talking about, you know, $6 or $7 million or $5 million. I had heard that it's the most you can go up is 5%, and that is probably because of the certain things in the CBA that there is a cap.

You can negotiate a cap for next season to go up. That much? Four million? What would 5% be on 82? Yeah, it's like four point, just over four. That's not necessarily that you're going to take it all. I just heard that that was the limit yeah that would be the limit so i believe now that the that's a foregone conclusion they

will bring the cap up is it 85 is it 84 as larry brooks had said by at least the end of next year the debt will be paid off by the players that's a good point by by larry and other people have made that point too just about the smoothing thing like if you know what's going to get there right now the league really is suffocated like player movement new contracts it's god you see what the other you know highest paid players and other sports are making you know the nhl was in line with it 20 years ago and now 12 and a half mil here whatever it is 40 million in most sports the other thing that larry said that you say kikuchi money in baseball yeah you know the right the other thing that larry said that kind of pissed me off uh or

at least reminds me and it's not what larry said pissed me off but uh the truth of the guys just don't pay attention and they you need to educate it. That they don't? They're in this mess because they never paid attention. Yeah. Because they didn't care. And a lot of them still, I bet you if you asked them how escrow worked, they wouldn't have a clue.

They're like, we'll let the grown-ups sort it out. I'm just a kid playing hockey. And it's like, no, no, no, you're a grown-up now. You're in your 20s and you're making millions of dollars this is important i i would hope that now you know this isn't this the sid and ovi era is you know on its last few years this marty welsh coming in now he's it's not sid and it's not ovi and the guys around that era but this is now jack hughes it's uh matthew kachuk it's marner it's jason robertson now those guys they're young enough where they can pay attention but they're gonna have to they're gonna have to force themselves to learn and to larry's point uh get educated yeah yeah it is you know tough

to make someone learn who doesn't want to learn but no i agree that's a crucial part of this and something i wish i had done more of in my younger days is you know pay attention tune in kids it's my it's my don cherryism of the day speaking of kids speaking of the cap uh dylan cousins got lots of money against the cap seven years 49.7 million dollars that's a nice carrot to dangle a young kid it's is he 21 you know who he can thank tage thompson he can thank tage for his long-term deal looking instantly brilliant and them going maybe we can do it again he is 21 years old oh yeah that is a 21 year old turned down 50 million. No brainer. But this is... I love the kid. I love the player. Me too.

It's a fantastic deal for Buffalo. You're getting the best seasons of his career. And in two or three years... He's Bo Horvath, cheaper and better. Two or three years, as we know, with the cap will rise. Buffalo's locked in. I don't know if... If Adams plays his cards right man he's gonna have

a stanley cup contending team in probably under three years buffalo could be good montreal could be good for for you know and and have two or three four opportunities for a dynasty. They could. But you need a goalie. No, you need, come on, like take a look. Darlene, power, right? Darlene Powerson, that's enough. You're going to have a number one pair of two top ten guys.

How is it not trending in the right direction for Buffalo if they just kind of close off one or two more pieces here and then one has to be the goalie i saw uh pekka lukinen i saw uh emily caplan wrote a piece for espn today talking about um vancouver canucks getting calls on demco yeah and there was four teams that had called and apparently they hadn't turned them down they didn't say no to anything apparently listen they don't know if you guys remember but last year tell me if you remember this i told you you know the quickest way to uh improve the vancouver canucks that last year who did i say no idea bull horvat what trade trade him yes you don't remember that oh maybe

maybe i do okay okay anyways i threw it out you guys were like no no way yeah like the biggest mistake they've made now is that they they didn't trade bow and jt miller for sure that's it like think about where they in in the last six or eight months, if they really, really knew that they weren't Bo Horvat fans, like you missed the boat. They did miss the boat. But you also missed the boat that you, Miller, you should have got rid of Miller too.

Big boats, missing them. Yeah, no, I agree. But it is. Like having the Vancouver Canucks right now in Connor Bedard, hey, we're going for Connor, which would have been the tank, I'm sure. But, hey, listen, that's the new NHL now. We know that's true. We know it's there.

It's real. But there would have been a lot more of a buy-in for conor bedard today well yeah but what i was getting at there is i'm pretty sure the buffalo sabers are one of the teams that have called on demko yes wouldn't you think like if that to me if they figured out a way to i know he's had a down year he's been hurt or whatever but if they got demko but are they ready i don't know that's the question and to spend assets again this this uapekalukkanen, I know it's a funny name, but he's a very good goalie. Right. And you don't want to send him away and thinking you've made now two mistakes with an Ulmer.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's... Man, they look good with Ulmark. Listen, Owen Power could be a top five defenseman in the NHL, and Rasmus Dahlien might win the Norris this year. You have two guys like that back there, you're going to be good. You are going to be very, very good.

Yeah, Tage Thompson, obviously, Cousins now locked up. Like, they're going to have pieces. I love that talk. Yeah. You know, we can talk. Skinner's having a good year now. We can talk all we want. When they win, he won't be a part of it.

We can talk all we want about Pat win he won't be a part we can talk all we want about pat kane going to new york or toronto but come on how's buffalo not make that call i wonder say pat we can we can take you now you just have to you have to be on board so if you're a cane do you say i'll do it for six million you know like i'll play for i think you got to show more respect than that he has been dreadful this year wow come on look at the circumstances the game is the organization has been dreadful you hung me out to dry i'm just saying he has not been good he's got he's you know he can get his points and make his plays though yeah i think you give him reason to be motivated again i would say there's a different situation playing for your hometown team who's all of a sudden sneaky good and hot here versus playing for a crappy franchise that's

you know going in the wrong direction so anyways best thing to happen to the sabers getting playoffs this year get some experience in those big games get beat up by the bruins a little bit learn some lessons that'd be a fun playoff series though i think really fun sabers could take one or two off them now you'd get shelled four straight yeah i don't know how was your uh your your bets did uh new jersey not help you by not winning a regulation i had i had florida to beat tampa that was the hard part of the bet jersey goes up for one matthew kachuk five points just picking up right off the three-on-three game. Vasilevsky looked atrocious. And they're right back at it tonight, Tampa Bay.

Yes, sir. There he is again. San Jose. All right, our thanks to Chris Terrien, Ken Hitchcock, and Larry Brooks. That was a fast two hours. Love to hear from you. Give us a rating and review, a thumbs-up on YouTube. Always glad you're aboard.

Enjoy tonight. And we're right back tomorrow on The Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Have a good night, everybody.