Real Kyper & Bourne - Goalie Instability at the Midway Mark

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne, and Sam McKee kick off the show by breaking down a pair of Leafs wins over the weekend, including bounce back performances from Matt Murray and Ilya Samsonov, whether or not the Leafs still need an upgrade in net, the five-forward powerplay and Morgan Rielly easing back into the lineup. They are joined by Leafs Nation's Gord Stellick (41:49) who shares his thoughts on the Leafs' goalie competition, the dynamic of player morale vs. business at the trade deadline and the Sabres' playoff hopes. Later, Bob Stauffer of Oilers NOW joins the show (1:06:43) to discuss Edmonton's season so far, Jack Campbell losing the starting job in net, their need for secondary scoring in the absence of Evander Kane and how active they will be in the blueliner trade market. Finally, the guys share their halfway-point-of-the-season takeaways for the Leafs.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Fan. It is indeed. Live and in color on Sportsnet's YouTube channel, Sportsnet Now. And also heard on Sportsnet 590 The Fan. Downloaded on iTunes and Spotify. After a tough last week, Toronto Maple Leafs steadied the ship on the weekend. Mm-hmm.

And we are here all week long to tell you about that and a lot of other cool stuff. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Jennifer Rolnick, Derek Brandeo, and Sammy. Now, JP, I said ship with a p didn't i listen if you didn't it wouldn't be the first time you said it the other way so we'll be okay all right so that's what the weekend did for the toronto maple leafs wins against detroit wins against the philadelphia flyers they must be close to catching the Bruins now with all these wins. Have you watched the Bruins lately?

Do they even know how to lose? Oh my God. They are 32-4-4. An 850 winning percentage. Swept California four in a row. No losses in the last 10. Bruins are good. A weekend that was really played out the way it should

yeah two teams not going to the playoffs two teams at times have struggling struggled i think detroit's closer to being where they want to be than i think the philadelphia flyers last night guys like painful to watch the philadelphia flyers yeah i i watched them and i'm thinking my first thought was where is this organization going i know and that's the the the worst part for chuck fletcher is they were trying to win not that long ago and maybe even this year but they like that's not a team that was constructed to lose they're not arizona they're not chicago trading with dock and to brink it they're just bad they're just genuinely bad we suck police now five oh and one in back-to-backs that's weird isn't it that weird it's a good number it's great it's good as you can

do minus so what was the number one priority here is to uh make sure that the goalies feel good that they are are back in a in a positive mindset the one that i think sheldon and the team kind of painted the last six weeks a bit of a hiccup since what, December 15th? Mm-hmm. Which takes us right around, I think, when the Rangers, when they went to Madison Square Garden. Yep. And then it was well noted that between December

and going into the weekend, they had the worst save percentage out of 32 teams. You know, we went into this weekend with concerns right we were concerned about the goaltending concerned about john tavarez and his play had fallen off and those two topics got good answers from the team this weekend both goalies really good um you know steady performances john tavarez five points in two games a couple of the bigger concerns nice to see them answered and not become nagging long-term problems. All right, let's kick off this week with a Kippers Clipper,

Sheldon Keefe, on the overview from the game. Let's start first with Sunday night. Yeah, I thought our start was really good. Really liked, you know, the campus line was really, really strong for us. And, you know, I'm not sure what they had to show for it offensively, but to me they were really good at setting up other lines for success and carrying play and kind of wearing down their team a little bit. So I thought that was really good.

I thought, you know, we made good on a lot of our chances and obviously scored a bunch of goals, and that put us in a good spot in the game. I didn't think we had our best game by any means. Relied on our goaltender probably too much, but he was terrific, and that's really the story of the game for me is how he played. But all considered here, it's been a tough stretch for us here this week, our fourth game this week, and to get the good results is nice.

The top line did a good job putting other lines in a position to have success. See, I got my goaltending was the story of the game. Okay. That's what I pulled out of that. Well, he did specifically say it was the story, so it probably is. Sounds right. I mean, but maybe it's not entirely right, but it's where his biggest concern was,

and he needed to prop it up because it was good enough to prop up. That seems to be something he makes a real effort at, trying to keep the egos running high in a good way trying to keep everyone feeling good about themselves because now murray the game before murray uh was in they beat colorado 6-2 if i'm not mistaken you know you get a couple of games together in a row you know the connect me one okay you know deloria one's a nice backhand so fine now we know that matt murray is going to go to

nhl jail for rattling the post michael russo was tweeting before the show yeah that they're they're watching murray in the post thing right so it took a took a leafs goalie doing this for everyone to notice it happened for 150 years as long as there's been posts this has happened and it's like oh the murray did it time to time no no time for a referendum no it's not russo's late to the party on this one because we had talked about this when the least visited minnesota what was that over a month ago oh yeah we talked about this already we had this conversation it's it's an it's a league issue it is a league issue but what can they even conceivably do about it? Nothing Matt Murray did last night warrants putting a guy in the penalty box.

Yeah, it does. What is he doing? He's testing the post because it was loose. Unless you believe he's rattling it loose. If you are under no duress and you knock off the net on your own, you are subject for a delay game penalty. That's, you are. Right.

It is an extreme, and you better be darn sure. But I think that's where we're heading. Yeah, just what you need more in the NHL, in the rule book, more gray area. Like more room for... Imagine the play is going down at Philly's end, the ref blows the whistle and goes, we just don't like the way he's touching the net.

The whole thing's gray. It's another... Do you understand? It's all gray. Tripping, hooking, interference. It's all gray, Sammy. No, but if you trip somebody, whether you meant to do it or not, it's a penalty.

That's right, though. It's a subjective call. Yeah, subjective. But if you're going for the puck and your stick or not, it's a penalty. That's right, though. It's a subjective call. Yeah, subjective. But if you're going for the puck and your stick gets in a guy's feet and he steps on it and you trip him, it's still a trip. Yeah, you're right. You're right. And if you're interfered like Tavares and you whine and complain about that,

that one's interference or it's not. There's no gray there either, eh? No. I think tripping and hooking are the i guess the ones that you can point to but there's there's there's rules that you're basically saying that there's no rule that don't have gray area there's lots of gray area i'm just saying that it's up to the official to have the guts to say listen you did not have to knock that net off you didn't you just wanted the whistle i like that i think murray likes to keep it on tap as a complaint if need be play ever gets hot

and bothered around them then it's an option for him right take the two i just can picture this happening in the playoffs in a big spot where the goalie didn't mean to do it it's gonna be right it's been a big thing it's been discussed for months now on how to present this next board general managers meetings all of it that's at the i don't think there's anything it's at a it's at a not the top i wouldn't i don't know if it's at the top of a list but it is uh it's an issue that is going through the league and will end up somehow with the general managers. It will end up somehow with the Leafs getting a double minor in game seven.

Proposed contact by a goalie. They weren't warned. Well, that'll be interesting. We'll see if the warnings come, if they get more serious. All right. We've got a terrific show. We've got Stellic tricity will be joining us in about uh 30 minutes 35 minutes for its stellar bob stopper is going to stop by and let us uh in on uh what the edmonton oilers may need going into the second half and layers

is there is there really a chance like we can only have like two canadian teams in the playoffs no alberta alberta's gonna sort it out connor david needs some new socks calgary old socks did you see the oh my god the video of his socks it's horrible anyway it's good calgary kind of giving up a point to chicago and that's not going to come back and haunt you at all calgary just keep waiting for them they're spinning their wheels need to get some traction. All right, just to touch on a little bit more of the goaltending, can we put to rest that somehow, some way, the Leafs could end up with another goalie by the end of the year?

Can we just put that to rest? No, we cannot. Why not? Because their goalies aren't that great i have these two tendies i'll put it to rest with you kipper yeah thank you we can let it rest there joe wall may be involved at some point when one of them gets hurt but these are the two guys that may be that may be the the end result that if if they do falter enough that you pull up wall from the american hockey league his numbers are phenomenal are they not at the american hockey league sammy

wall yeah yeah he's eight oh and oh and it starts i think he's got a nine four three say percentage right i mean again it's shalgren shalgren's been their boy he was hurt early right yeah yeah he's got eight games in apparently shalgren hasn't been very good that's what i've heard from some marley's people that that may be a last resort yeah they're if if we look at the back half of the season now and really the way the the league is yeah what what stretch do you think that these guys would have have to have to have to have to go and shop for another goalie. There's no time for them to stink that much. Not when you're playing the likes of the Flyers and Columbus coming up. And you're going to judge your four games against Boston and Tampa Bay to decide whether or not these guys can.

There's no time, JB. You tell me that if Torontoonto loses to boston or sorry tampa in round one six games they get stinky goaltending in two of them they got to go to their backup because one of the guys can't do it whatever that you're not going to come on this show and say it was a problem we knew it was a problem yeah is it i don't trust it matt Of course I will. Matt Murray has in the last three years prior to this season was like 78th in saves above expected or whatever. He hasn't been good for some years. So he's got 16 games here as a 9-16. Samsonov's got 16 games as a 9-16, both of them.

I'm just not, I'm not comfortable. But I understand there's not enough hockey left to say they've been bad, you need to move on from one of them. And there won't be a long enough stretch where they'll stink. The team's too good. I know.

I agree with that. And I think this weekend kind of showed it that you are now in a position, if you're the Toronto Maple Leafs, when you look at your goaltending that you are now in a position if you're the toronto maple leafs when you look at your goaltending you are hoping and praying that you've got between matt murray and samson off the next darcy kemper yeah and there's just no time for them to bail wins a cup it's healthy wins a cup and then what at the trade deadline if you are a little bit uncomfortable you're gonna go do what he did uh uh two uh deadlines ago and give up a

third rounder for ridditch yep which was a like a useless loved it useless trade hated it hated it and the next day he was on the ice what did you love about giving up a third round pick well they had injury issues with anderson they didn't know what he was going to be or if he could at the time ridditch had been pretty good for a stretch and it seemed like an insurance policy you were a stanley cup contending team who let's say anderson was hurt who was the backup was it hutchinson or it was someone that you didn't trust it was definitely hutchinson at that point and so it was like you need someone just in case he's hurt he didn't need him and riddick stunk every game he played and it didn't work out i like the theory behind it he played four games for the least poorly four games yeah who was on the bench in the playoffs riddick was

in the stands was he not he was yeah freddie was he not? Yeah, he was. Yeah, Freddie. Wasn't Freddie in? I can't remember. Honestly, that was the bubble that doesn't even feel like real hockey. But I feel, I don't know. I can't remember. I can look it up. Yeah.

My point is, though, if you're going to give up a third rounder for a guy in the stands, in the playoffs, by the time you get them out of the stands it's too late that's a very good point it's too late it's over yeah by the time you're going well freddie can't do it and hutchinson can't do it you're down at best three to whatever and to go back to your point about asking kipper if you know if we come in here after they lose in game six in the first round and it's because of the goaltending well we've had a question about this on friday when kipper was away that is this ultimately the blind spot for dubas that kind of cost him sure his job and both of those conversations can be the same thing like

they stuck with these two guys they went with it and it's what cost them and that's what cost dubas his job i just don't want to be the guy who, you know, then we're sitting in here and you guys go, well, they were great up until that point. It's been 16 games each. That's not our angle. Our angle is this is your bed. You lie in it.

Yeah, it is. That's the bed. But you can change the sheets still. No, you cannot. You can't. It's that's the bed. And you can change the sheets still. No, you cannot. You can't. It's just. Do you have any idea of a hockey goalie you'd like? Is there anyone out there that.

I think you're getting to the point. So it's January 9th today. The trade deadline is under two months away. We're going to have a clearer picture a month from now of who would be selling, who would be available. I mentioned, uh, Varlamov. I,

I just off the top of my head, the guys that were in their last year of their deal, Kim Talbot's interesting to me too. I guess the question is, are either of those guys better? They're making more comfortable than Samsonov and Murray. Shouldn't be a lot better than Matt Murray. No. Kim Talbot. I think I'll say this. I than Samsonov and Murray. Shouldn't be a lot better than Matt Murray. No.

Cam Talbot. I think, I'll say this. I'm coming around on Matt Murray. I think you can talk me into Matt Murray. Samsonov, I'd like to see a good run of play. We know we got a good game Saturday night from him. I'm just hesitant. Let's pick up Sheldon Keefe's comments on Samsonov from Saturday's game against Detroit.

Okay. You know, we've been needing our whole team to play better, but we need our goalies to play better as well, and it hasn't gone as well for them. But Sammy, the last three days in particular, he and Curtis Sanford have put in some real work. I mean, our team took yesterday off. Sammy and Curtis did not take yesterday off.

Those guys were in work, and they're on the ice. And I thought right from the morning right through to the game tonight, Sammy's focus was really, really solid. He looked destined to have a great night here tonight, and I thought he did. He was excellent. He didn't give up a great deal in the second and third periods, but he was ready for anything that was going to come at him. So I was really impressed with the work that he put in to get prepared for this game and the way he came out

and gave our group confidence. Can you really be destined when you play Detroit and Philly? Yeah, that's why you're destined. But I will say, you know, going into the year with Samsonov, the criticism was work ethic and not work ethic, but off-ice care. Focus. Focus. And this is great.

This is great that he recognizes that it's a time for increased focus. If that was a problem, it seems he's taking care of that problem. He's playing well. Maybe I should shut my mouth and just put on my Samsonov jersey that I don't have but should. Listen, we can talk until we're blue in the face about this. It's about one of them getting hot at the right time. You're going to go into the playoffs.

April's going to come. That first game's going to start. Who knows who you're going to go with, and. The April's going to come. That first game's going to start. You're probably going to, who knows who you're going to go with. And you hope that one of them gets hot. I can't imagine it's Samsonov, but never know. But even if it is, I don't think there's a world in which we get through the series where not both of the goalies are playing. Would you agree?

I don't know if one of them has established themselves. Personally, I like to go with the with one guy you know what are the one of the perks is you get to change your goalie if the other guy's struggling and you think back i mean in game and you think back to all those playoff series over the years where an established starter has been sat down think about when the was it when the caps won the cup and they had Holpe? And in the first round, they put Grubauer in there. There's another example of that recently. Scott Darling went in there for Corey Crawford at the time.

Like, it does happen. Yeah. Where goalies go in, so. Markov got pulled last night. Who? Markstrom, sorry. Oh, yeah. Calgary, Chicago. And they went on to get a point i mean like it helped right i'm guessing yeah but you can change the tides when you

ever picture daryl setter saying yeah i just felt he was destined i don't think he's got that it's it's clear he's overcompensating their maybe lack of confidence at times. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. I mean, that's the new world. If he feels like these guys need to be prompt up a little bit because they do lose their confidence, he's all they got yeah yeah i would agree um how did

you feel about their play as a whole on the weekend obviously two no one called them runaway wins but pretty handy wins i think they they they did what they needed that to me that looks like a good team mid-season where you just kind of you win you know like it's not like a high crazy game high event like they just kind of got through it get their two points to go home yeah and the the boys got their cookies too yeah right they got to get the bars on the board they got their points and yeah i i don't i didn't get a ton out of the weekend to be honest with you they're just throwaway games they're they're they're fillers until you get to meaningful games yep and they did what they were supposed to do connor timmons scores a good his first nhl goal callie yarn crock is a superstar all right what's uh what'd you think

of uh timmons coming in out of the bullpen yeah i mean i really like the idea that they wanted to get him in because he had played well and he didn't come out because he had played poorly you know sammy and i i was on the post game with sammy last night we talked a little bit about timmons and my point about him was you know i love the way he's played for them it's just in playoffs there's no way he's in if everyone's healthy right like you can't see a world where what he does is something they badly need but he's a nice player who played a really good game shot in the net first career goal yeah i mean i've been pretty clear over the last few years that i think to get to a conference

final or stanley cup final you need eight if not nine guys to be able to come in and if if he's done anything at this point he's proven that he he could come in and not look out of place. Yeah. I just still don't know where he is physically. That's essentially it. At 6'2". Did he get hurt last night? Yeah.

He kind of had a weird fall in front of the net. For some reason, he was in front of their net. Then he came back and scored. Did anybody ask him where he went or what happened? It's like, I mean, every post-game interview I saw last night is, oh, you got your first, tell me what it's like. No. Where'd you go?

Did you get hurt? Or did you have equipment issues? Would you have to go to the bathroom? Where did you go? Yeah, the talk on the broadcast was a lot of like, oh, not again. Poor Timmons. He hurt quite a bit and then he just came back and so i mean game one game three game five game seven if you hit the

guy he's gonna disappear for a little bit and then come back or does he not come back at all i i do like the idea and you mentioned this is like an eight nine guy that comes in he can break the puck out and he can you know head up players keith calls him but if you were to look criticize the leafs in previous playoff years a softer talented guy on the back end is not for me personally they would need to add to those groups if i'm in the playoffs i see that guy i'm dumping it in his corner and i am pasting him yeah i think that's probably a fine tactic right obviously a very good player and i love the idea of you know them getting him of what he can provide for them but yes he is not how many the least d are you not doing that to kipper yeah that's a good question like you're really you mean i guess you're morgan riley you're not going to be able to catch him

he's going to slither his way out of there but But I don't think there's a ton of guys, and that's maybe where the issue is and why people do want them to add some sort of grit on the back end. There's not a ton of guys out there that you're really afraid of physically at all. So maybe it's a bigger conversation about what they're going to be looking for, but I think that's probably a reason why.

Anyways. Good, good valid point. Okay, let's move on. Five on five, we've also in the last two weeks had heavy conversations on that it looked like sheldon it's kind of backed off a little bit saturday from it let's get his comments on his thought process on five forwards on his number one power play? Just a matter of circumstance. The folks in the game, what's going on. I mean, you start the second period,

we had something like 38 or 39 seconds. I mean, it wasn't quite enough to go with five forwards there. So we put Morgan in, and now it's a 2-1 game. And I thought the game was... I just didn't think at that moment that the risk was worth it. So it's just more of a matter of what was happening in the game. See, that really surprises me. Okay.

Why? Because he's been on this five forwards for a little while, and he's never once uttered the word risk. I thought the same thing. I was like, that wasn't was an admission he finds it risky. Now, all of a sudden, it's as if that's all we've talked about for two weeks. This is the first time he's uttered

risk and whether it's worth it or not. And that's our conversation for the last 14 days. He should feel that way, though, right? Because you've said several times about the defending that you don't trust a forward defending as well. Up until this weekend,

it's almost as if that risk didn't even enter his thought. Right. Yeah, I think it did, but I think there's like a denial because he wants to do it and not get criticized for it. Right? It's like a river. I believe it is.

But yeah, he wants to say, well, other power plays get scored on too, even with a D-man out there it's just the same thing but that's just to kind of you know just so people won't be all over him for trying it I do think that we haven't seen the end of it I think it's like if it's not

going in the power play here's one thing he said we don't have a clip of it but one thing he did say was he could see them going to that five forward unit look this makes no sense but with the d-man as in not a d-man up top leave marner up top and add a d-man on the flank or wherever and i don't hate that it's but now you're every other power play you are so i guess what you're saying is we're we might consider mitch marner as the top guy

on your power on your 131 that everyone else runs. But if you're doing that, just put the 5 forward. Do you really need to tell us that it is kind of 5 forwards, but it's not? No. Like, just now you're back to what probably a lot of suggestions have been made over the past is get your power play moving. That's all.

Get more rotation. Don't have Morgan Riley so stagnant there at the top. Get him moving around. The guy that I found best over the last few years, I loved the most, was Torrey Krug on the Boston Bruins before he left for St. Louis. And I watched that guy on the power play, and there wasn't an inch of ice that he couldn't picture himself

if he needed to get to to make the power play go to work. But I see some Torrey Krug and Mitch Marner, the way he darts and he gets in and out of spaces. And, you know, my thought with Mitch Marner being up top on that power play is he's not a shooter, just like Riley, right? Neither guy is a shoot first kind of guy so you kind of have riley back there but marner's so much better wow at picking how many guys have his vision in the world right now like three like next to none maybe yeah and he may

be the best for sure so it makes sense to me to say what if riley were a little better at that what if he could distribute a little cleaner have a better sense of when to shoot it so i don't mind having marner there it's you know you do you want someone to defend you say marner sorry riley you're on the flank but be ready to pull out if it comes the other way did you hear what simmer said on the broadcast on saturday night which i thought was pretty good as well about riley back on that unit saying that like may this may not be a route risk this may not be about this, it may be about trying to get Morgan Riley going since he came back?

No. I'll give you the number one reason. Which I thought was interesting. Because there isn't a world alive where you think you're starting a $7.5 million contract on a defenseman and he's not involved. He's sitting his ass on the bench. It's ridiculous.

That you're going to go five forwards, and that guy's going to sit and watch the whole thing. You know, 7.5 is not 9.5. I completely agree with Kipper here, I have to say. You paid him. What, you guys are going to play guys because you paid them? 7.5 isn't the top. It isn't Darnell Nurse, which we know they completely overpaid there.

But it's enough to say you are good at a power play. You're good at penalty killing, even strength, first and last minute of every period. You are it. I can see them seeing 7.5 million. He only makes 5.5 this year, if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct? 5.5 this year. Okay, get your money's worth and then trade him.

Is that what you're saying? No, but I can see as the salary cap goes up, the type of guy who is a PP1 quarterback in the NHL makes $9 and $10 million. And they say Riley's a guy who maybe he's our PP2 guy. Maybe he's not. He doesn't have to be. I don't think they think he's we do not carlson back there well they've had good power plays with him at the top of it problem is is it's

it's losing morgan that's what it is you lose morgan really you are you're gonna sit his ass on the power play and you're going to watch Sandin or five forwards take your job and you go to your coach. What am I doing here? Why am I even here? What do you want from me? And then I'm going to have the crowd all over me. And it's like, no, you don't, you know, I am paid to do this job and you don't want

me anymore. Then what am I doing here? Yeah. And if that starts running rampant in your room, Sheldon's done. The team's done. You got to bring everybody together. Everybody needs to feel good about their role and the pecking order in the room. That's how you win championships.

Not sitting a guy like that on the bench. That's it. That's exactly why he's back on the power play i do think that sheldon wanted to give his five forward look enough reps that let's say morgan is that the quarterback and they go two games in the power play and they're oh for eight where they say we got to do something else man you're not your chance to be the number one guy and if if it hits you look like a genius i guess don't know. But you just need to have a plan B. Plan A for three years in a row has been garbage in the playoffs.

You need to have a plan. Okay. Maybe. Yeah, I'll buy into that. But they did go back to him for the reason you're saying, in my opinion, which is we can't have him just going, well, you know, I got zero goals. And you're right. And now they've tried the five.

And you're in the first round. You need a big goal. Yeah, they've done it. And it's like, well well we've tried five fours maybe we try to shake it up here we've done it a lot with you morgan we want to try this luck here i think it's there's maybe more to go back on but in games like to kipper's point and these games against crappy teams in the regular season give it some run the five forwards before you try and play off or don't you want to get uh morgan some confidence exactly that's it's more important to me to have your number one quote-unquote defenseman feeling good, playing well,

than establishing this power play that no one else does ever to me. And I would say we have triangulated the issue of why he was off it, and now he's back on it. You know? I think Keefe is on board with all this. This makes sense. Because he's been listening to us. Obviously.

Yeah, yeah. Keefe on Tavares from Saturday night. Let's have a listen. Seems to have a little more jump in his step, a little more confidence with the puck. I don't know what to attribute it to. I think it's, you know, he's like a lot of players or most players in the league that, you know,

your play kind of goes up and down and seems like he's on the rise here right now and his confidence, you know, looks good. You know, I don't know if the time off and the break and all that kind of stuff maybe takes a little bit to get going. I certainly think that's the case with our team. I mean, I thought that segment in the second period was the best that, you know, it felt behind the bench in quite a while in terms of the pace and how it was all coming together from one shift to the next.

You know, and I could see that with some of the individuals as well, John included. Wow, I found that interesting too. Twice he mentioned confidence for Tavares. So he thinks he lacks confidence? I mean, he was a point-per-game guy until he hit a little skid. I'm not sure how he would get there,

but you know, you've played, I've played. We've all had some sense of it just doesn't work for you for a while and you don't hang on to it as much or whatever. And the jump issue too, right? That's the one for me. That's visible, but it's been,

you know, a couple of good games against lesser teams, albeit, but the past, by the way, the pass he makes to Matthews on the goal, the wrist roll fade away. That's a unbelievable pass through the legs under the stick.

Unbelievable. What, uh, what I've noticed too, even before Christmas is the way Sheldon has kind of allocated his lines when they're putting them out there. I brought this up to you weeks ago that I'm watching offensive zone face-offs.

I'm seeing third and fourth line guys go out there after even commercial breaks. Matthews is getting a ton of offensive zones. Yes, but not Tavares and Marner. No. Like I asked you before the show just to give me the even minutes. And after the first period, do you know what Tavares and Marner had for ice time after the first period? I mean, I know Marner's total even strength ice time.

So at even strength, I'm guessing it's like four minutes or something. Yeah, overall minutes. Overall minutes. Because there were no penalties in the first. Right. So it's just even strength minutes. Well, I know Marner's even strength minutes for the game were 15. No, no.

Was what, seven? Seven. Seven even strength minutes? Seven and a half, maybe. I think that's what you showed me. Yeah, seven and a half. Seven and a half minutes. But Tavares and Marner had three and a half minutes in the first period of even strength

well just minutes minutes total total minutes yeah so what do you think that's about i don't know maybe he feels like john's uh workload is too much and he's pulling him back yeah i'm like that's like you would would you not want to see that though or does it make you and he's pulling him back. Yeah. I'm like, that's like... Would you not want to see that, though? Or does it make you concerned about Tavares? I'd rather him give him the day off than play him three and a half minutes in the first period. But then, you know, I mean...

It's a double-edged sword. He gets his three points against a bad team. He gets his three points. Does he feel good about it? But there's something there. You can't tell me that there's, you know, listening to his comments, noticing that he only played him three and a half minutes in the first period, all but Austin Reese and Wayne Simmons had more ice time than John Tavares.

Yeah. Last night had to be Marner's lowest for the season. 15 minutes. It has to be. But to me, this is, you know, if you're the coach, give the guys the breaks when you can. You win a game 6-2 against a bad team. Love it.

That's how you load advantage. Yeah. That's how you're making your top guys play less in a game where, you know, they're kicking the crap out of a bad team. And you get to play like simmons what did he play probably almost 10 minutes he's eight and a half yeah zach aston reese almost played 10 minutes like i think that's the way you kind of push for pontus or the one handed assist yeah on the aston reese goal aston reese's first goal in 19 games 18 games 19 games

something like that bars played 13 minutes last night. Who did? Tavares. Total, yeah. Total, 13-30. 13, and he ended up with what, two and... A goal and two assists. A goal and two assists. That's a dream night for Tavares and Keith. Yarncroft was 12-47 with a goal and two assists.

Listen, he ends up with no points playing 13. Yeah. And they lose. Different. Hair's on fire. For sure. But if you if you're down four two you put them out there more i think that's you know part of it is that game management do i talk about yarncroft cali californication out there yeah let's let's go to uh sheldon keep on yarn crock because i've been pretty adamant on how I feel about this. So he's played a lot better for us since he's come back from the injury. I think the time with the injury really helped him, you know,

just get really comfortable here. You know, you come into a new team and you kind of arrive shortly before training camp and then things are moving real fast and, you know, you've got a young family and stuff and your new team, new organization, new teammates, all that. It takes some time. I think the injury actually really helped sort of settle things down, allowed him some time to get comfortable,

allowed him some time to really just work at his game. I think since he's come back, he's been terrific and he compliments those guys well, like we talked about last night. He does a good job defensively. And, you know, if Buck comes to him, he can make a play on it. And, you know, when he's the trigger guy, he has the ability to finish. So we like those qualities about him. And he did a terrific job on the penalty kill tonight as well.

Eli Calley. Best 12-minute performance of all time. Second line. No. Left winger. No, no, no. There's not a world... 11 points in 10 games? There's not in my world

do I see playoff success with Yarncroft as a top six forward for you. I got bad news. I like him. I like him with good players. I don't know if I love him down the line as much. We do not agree. He's not been... Last night for sure, Mitch put one on his platter there.

Unbelievable play by Marner. That's ridiculous pass. The majority of his points have not come off Tavares and Marner. They haven't. Right. During the stretch. And they have not looked good, in my opinion. No, they're good defensively.

Yeah, really good defensively. Not good offensively. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's okay. We'll try to win against Boston and Tampa Bay, win nothing. No, I'm not saying that's good. I'm just saying that they haven't been awful in all situations.

But, yeah, you'd want Marner and DeMar to be good offensively. I think it's interesting that he said that he's been better since the injury. Like it was the right time for him to, like, be around the room. Yeah, to get hurt. To be around the room, get to know the medical staff, your surroundings, stay home with your family a little bit,

watch some games from above and then come back and attack again. I don't know. Two and a half million bucks or whatever. He makes two and a quarter, but we're also not screaming at the top of our lungs here, but you'd like to see another body come in yeah at a top six and that would take yarn croft's spot yeah yeah which one is that sammy you like him or you don't like him i think he's fine when you're playing crappy team i don't think he's i don't think he's the solution in the playoff but like when you're for right now he's you can make it to what's the trade deadline

you can make it you can make it to march 3rd with yet cal yarn crock playing on your second line he is uh career high is 15 goals he's on pace for 20 now um you know i like that he works hard he skates well and he's a hard shot like he's hard on the puck to me you know he's a lot of things i like i get why you don't see him as an adequate winger he's not providing anything offensively for Marner or Tavares. There's nothing that is helping those guys aside from someone who can get the puck and finish the chances when they come and do the little things that like, you know, he leaves it up to John and Mitch and says, I'm not going to be a liability.

And he's not. I think they're getting their money's worth with Cali. Well, yeah, there's no debate about that. I's been he's been two and a quarter for sure they only get their money's worth when they're out of the first round what do you mean they only get their money's worth i don't know he's been fine i like i don't think it's a like i said i don't think it's a long-term solution i do think that they're going to bring in a more impactful guy to play in the top six. But until then, Callie is just fine to me. Yes, he's the best of a tough situation, I think, up front. You see that Dubas and Pritam were at a Flyers-Coyotes game the other day?

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, I mean, Dubas only trades with the Coyotes. So, yeah, he has to go down there and see who's... One more for me. I like Wayne Simmons a lot better than watching Hunt and... No way. ...and Austin Reese. Last night was better for me as a fourth line.

And I'm not saying that Wayne Simmons is the answer, but I'm saying that type of body or that type of look is better for me than watching two 5'11 guys run around like water bugs you can talk me out of aston reese i'm on team hunt now um but you can definitely talk me out of aston reese if you think you're getting something at least simmons provides a chirp you fight you not a bluffer you know a guy who is not a bluffer and i'm not saying aston reese even bothers with that he doesn't seem have... He's a robot as far as I can tell. So yeah,

I get that. You know who Flyer's best line was, right? No. Did they have a good one? It was their big fourth line. DeLaurier? 100%. Thank you. DeLaurier's a good player in that role. They gave the Leafs some trouble when they were on the ice.

I really... I hate to say how many times I've agreed with Kipper today, player in that role they gave the leafs some trouble when they were on the ice yeah i i really i hate to say how many times i've agreed with kipper today but i agree having a big guy in the fourth line was a bit of a breath of fresh air oh it was like it just was like oh this guy he's pissed off i get that like i and i but i agree with you if i'm doing it next time it's hunt and simmons as opposed to like i have zach ass and reese has not sent me a christmas card i wouldn't say he's my i've been overly nice to him since he's been on the leafs i i feel like i've tried for zach ass and reese i've tried last night i've tried to go to bat like his defensive numbers are great and like all this stuff but like he just doesn't seem to have a

pulse he doesn't the old what would you say you do here? Just, yeah, very, just lacks a little emotion. Yes. I agree. And we talked about that. There's previous teams basically said, if you could give them a little shock collar

and get the best of them once in a while, you'd love them, but tough. Okay. Let's take a quick break. We got Gord Stelic coming up after the commercial break. He'll verify everything I said in the first 40 minutes.

Like it. Or at least, we'll get him said in the first 40 minutes. Like it. Or at least... We'll get him to half. A quarter. Gord Stelic, after the break, you're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born. All right, as promised, Gord Stelic now joins us.

How was your New Year's? My New Year's was kind of quiet. I worked. My family was in Mexico enjoying the week, so I was home with Dog Blue and played a little tennis and all that good stuff. It was a great December. Great seeing everybody again, Kippy and Justin.

First normal Christmas in about three years. How was yours, Kipper? It was fast. It was good. Much like the Leafs, it started off really well, and maybe the last few days I wanted a lot of quiet back into my life. What about Justin?

Justin, how old are your kids? My kids are six and coming up on three. Oh, you're in the big archery. It's peak Christmas season. The elf on the shelf. The zip lining from the lamp to the tree. That's a two-hour practice with no pucks.

That's what that is. Kippy, you and I are trying to get our kids up by boxing day at this stage. So let's start with the goaltending. It's taken a good portion of our start here on Monday. Gord, did the goaltending do enough for you in terms of calming the waters? Will we, between now and the trade deadline, still listen to conversations about the Leafs potentially looking for goalies? I say that window's closed from here on in.

Yeah, I think that you are, you know, I mean, what? You're going to get a marginal third-string goaltender, a David Riddick again or something like that? You know, you do want a third goaltender for depth reasons to be your possible Jeff Zatkoff if you, you know, go a little deep and have some injuries. So maybe Joseph Wall finally can be that, if he's healthy, can be that player. But so, Kippy, I agree with you.

Yeah, you're not in the equivalent of whatever the Marc-Andre Fleury talk is this trade deadline. But I just thought yesterday, and I get what he's doing, but Sheldon went a little overboard. The goaltending to me was not the difference in yesterday's game. I was a little surprised they got outshot by one shot. First goal was soft, but I'm, you know, and the goaltending has been ordinary since whatever that date is,

December 15th. But that run before that was what I needed to see that these guys can do it. And again, as we know, when the playoffs happen, if someone gets in that Yaroslav Halak mode like he did for Montreal those years ago, you're screwed. I don't care whether it's the opposing team

or the Toronto Maple Leafs, whomever. And they have not since the Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour era had, like, let a goalie win you a series. Come on, be a difference maker in a playoff series. So, like I said, I'm not doing cartwheels, but I am sold that these are the two guys you're going to the playoff dance with. So, like, if they're, do you think there's any chance

they want to see Wohl get some NHL games? Just, like, just to see, maybe comes up, he's good, and they go, boy, we could move on from Sam Sonoff and spend his money. But why? Why? To save $900,000 and spend it on a better player. You may need him. You may need him, Kippy. I think try everything now.

Try the five forwards on the power play. Try different things in the regular season, too, if it makes a difference in one playoff game. But think about the message you also send Matt Murray and Samsonov. Who cares? It's a business. It's a business. This is a guy you're developing. You haven't developed a goaltender from within. I'm here to tell you guys that players care.

And it matters in the room. Oh, you're telling the wrong two people. Go in another station. Go to CHFI and cut into the easy music listing. Tell them players care. We know here. We know.. We know. You lose guard. You're a general manager.

Can't lose players. I understand that. They quit on you. Oh, they quit. I want those players gone. Those players are going to quit. I'm just saying if you're talking about a goaltender of, and, okay, there should be, let's face it,

one of the goaltenders will have a little bit of a okay so kippy i'll soften it now and i'll apologize i'll tell you to go to easy rock then okay anyway the uh that you basically you you'll have a point where one won't be a hundred percent so you'll get a chance to call joseph wall up instead of eric shalgren how about that i'd like to see him get a couple of games in anyway and i I'm sure the brass wants to see that as well. You want to throw a couple of guys a night off. I get all that. It has to be timed well, but the message has to be clear

that this isn't because we don't believe in you. This is because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not saying that they'll quit. I'm just saying they'll quit believing in you. That's a big difference. Well, and that's what I think Sheldon was trying to reinforce yesterday. And so the point is, like, do we as a fan base believe in them? There's not enough body of work and there's no playoff history,

Matt Murray does with Pittsburgh, granted, to believe in you the same way what Leaf fans believed in Curtis Joseph or Ed Balfour or Tampa Bay fans believe in, you know, Andre Vasilevsky and, you know, on and on and on. I mean, Colorado's got the root about the goaltender that isn't the Vasilevsky type. You win a Stanley Cup and you move on somewhere else. So it's just got to be, you know, we've talked about it forever. Good enough to give you a chance to win.

If it's sensational, if it's great, that's a bonus. But it's got to be good enough to give you a chance to win and we go over it every time but you know freddie anderson could not provide that in the playoffs for some reason so the leafs have been holding open tryouts for second line left wing they invite the public in see give everyone a couple of games see who can swing it kelly yarncroft got his turn he's got a bunch of points. He's looked pretty good. He's feeling more confident now. He's got his young family settled and stuff. We disagree on the show about Cali Yarncroft's value or place.

What do you think about, could he stay there? Yeah, you know, I asked Kyle Dubas for like an item for my kid's school, and it's a chance to play a second-line left wing. Cool. A silent auction item to play a second-line left wing in Cool. A silent auction item to play a second-line left wing in an upcoming Leaf game. So very, very generous. Appreciate it.

I like Cali Yarncroke. Sam doesn't like him, right? Both Sam and Kipper give me the humming and hawing. I hate him. I just don't think that that's where you want to start a series against Tampa Bay with this guy as your second line left winger? You can't lose these guys, Kippy. They get upset when they hear stuff like that.

I don't care what Yonkrat thinks. Okay, he's that... Obviously, term-wise, this was the big commitment they made, and they're hoping... Dennis Mulligan couldn't do it. Nick Ritchie couldn't do it. Michael Bunting embraced it. Zach Hyman was the perfect kind of player that, okay, in your top six,

well, in Zach Hyman's top six, he was a super bonus because he could play all roles great. But Cali Yarncroke, if he can play adeptly at that role like he has of late. And also, it's not the easiest thing playing with great players all the time. And it's a small sample size, but I've liked him better than, you know, than some of the others that have not exactly wowed me, starting with Mulligan, who I know is gone now. Nick Robertson, Mulligan.

Well, Nick Robertson, I still, like, you know, he just gets hurt so much. I'm still big on the Nick Robertson. You know, I got to see what gives. I do agree with you about Wayne Simmons. Again, I'm getting off topic. He shouldn't be on the second line. But I did like, you know, I got to see what gives. I do agree with you about Wayne Simmons. Again, I'm getting off topic. He shouldn't be on the second line. But I did like, you know, that look or having that availability

to have that look in your on-ice roster last night. But right now, I don't say I'm bullish on Kelly Yarncroke, but I'm fine with Kelly Yarncroke on the second line. I'm fine with that. Like the consensus on Yarncroke from everyone is, yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, it wasn't a signing that, you know, Jake gave you. It's so true.

It's fine for now. It's January. Yeah, I feel the same way like when Mason Raymond was signed. That kind of excitement. Right? Sure. He's a player. Yeah.

Connor Timmons got a nice chance last night with TJ Brody out of the lineup. Is this the way you see him as a 6th, 7th, or 8th defenseman? Kippy, what a nice story, right? All you ever want, and you're the guys that played, is you want to get a chance, okay? And if you get a chance, can you seize it? If you get hurt, quite often you get behind the 8 ball and you never get that chance again, fairly or unfairly.

And he was going to go down to Arizona's American Hockey League team and much of it was injury-related. And probably the only reason I would think he got picked up by Toronto was all the injuries. And I really like this story about, you know, a guy adding as a depth D, providing unexpected offense. You know, he's not a core four guy or doesn't seem right now, but you never know.

You never know sometimes these things. But I just think it took a lot of pressure off Kyle Dubas because you know Kippy and Justin if you know like they wouldn't say it but when you lost all those D's like Brody and and Muzzin and and Riley and you know throw Ben in and all that the same time like if you lost your next four straight games you would be on the verge of like you know not you know you know, you can't necessarily go get Chikorin or Klingberg right off the hop, but you would have had to make a trade you probably didn't want to make to get just a decent journeyman NH practically, for I'll say nothing, sorry to the player that went the other way, but the same bright idea. And so he, to me, prevented or allowed them not to have to make a trade. They really, you know, because I'd been there before. I know, again, I always talk decades ago, but there was a guy named Mike Stothers.

He was a really good guy, really good coach now. But once we got him from Philadelphia, just because we had a rash of injuries, and he filled in the rest of the year, went up and down between the NHL and the AHL level. But you had to get a body at that point. Yeah, makes sense. You know, the team has just hit the halfway point in the season. I think that was their 41st game on the year.

I'm going to ask you for, put you on the spot with an overachiever and an underachiever uh because you know looking at this group it's it's about where we thought it might be at the start of the season but it's been a different way to get there than i think we anticipated who have you who do you have as a guy who's overachieved uh expectations and someone who's maybe underachieved gordon well considering you know pont i heard you i think you talked about pontus Holberg like just right wow like who is he no kidding he's an all-star soon when we push for Pontus

yeah yeah it's it's kind of like Zach Hyman was a few years ago I mean you'd heard about Zach a little bit just because prominent Toronto hockey family and you know things like that but yeah wow he came from the Marlies and you know didn't spend a lot of time toiling on the fourth line so that would be that and you know I didn't spend a lot of time toiling on the fourth line. So that would be that. And, you know, I know some people are picking on Nick Robertson. We need more out of Kerfoot and Engvall. And they've been doing that a little bit lately, you know. But we need more out of these guys.

Like, we need our Nick Paul. We need our Sorelli. We need guys to make a difference in the playoffs. And on defense, it's kind of unfair to – I think Jake Muzzin, we knew there were health issues, and I think that just factors into the fact that it doesn't look like he's going to play this year. I shouldn't say that. It just doesn't look that. But obviously that factored in.

So I don't even call it a disappointment. You knew that he was struggling with some health issues. But I look at those guys up front. They've been around for a while. Can you get the offense like Mikheyev did or whatever may be, or just a little bit more like everyone just got to give a little bit more. They got, they got to have three, four lines going in the playoffs. They got like, you know, you can't have a,

you can't have an appreciable drop in ability each line. That was your Ranger team, Kippy, about every line you threw out there. There was a consistency to the third line compared to the first line, the fourth line compared to the second, you know, and teams, Tampa Bay does that, like teams that generally win it all, and that's what you've got to get more for the Leafs, and I just want to see more of it in the regular season.

Gordon, we heard from Sheldon talking about Tavares' weekend. On two occasions, he mentioned he has more confidence, more jump. Is that something he's going to have to keep an eye on in the second half of the season? Are we talking about a guy that's never really, I don't think, had issues before in his career about confidence?

Yeah, well, that's interesting. Interesting Sheldon would say that. Like, Kippy, I just assume, you know, he's always been the cat's ass. Number one overall pick, he was Mr. New York Islander. There was no bigger, you know, free agent signing in recent years than John Tavares coming here. And I think whatever criticism has been on the softer side has been about that $11 million number

when you compared it to the other guys making $11 million. And that's not his fault. I mean, really, like the fact he wanted to come to Toronto just spoke volumes. Okay. The fact that maybe so many guys make an 11 at the same time caused a bit of a cap issue is not his fault. So I just assume he has all kinds of confidence. I like seeing a little emotion from him.

I like seeing a little emotion from anybody. And, you know, Matt Sundin was a guy that sometimes got unfairly criticized, like not showing the Gary Roberts, Darcy Tucker, Dougie Gilmore, you know, type emotion that we like to see. But I just love the way John Tavares is playing this year. A lot of it probably being back with Marner.

Anybody who plays with Marner is going to play great. That was his best year, the first year, 47 goals. So you found, or he's found a way or they found a way to kind of get him to to what seems to be his best level as a leaf the confidence i'm surprised about so looking at the division here the the leafs humming along now almost at a 700 winning percentage the bruins just win and win and win um you know i'm looking beneath them though you know toronto and tampa are likely slotted in do you like like the Buffalo Sabres, Gord?

This team is looking like they could climb their way into the postseason. They score a lot of goals. Interesting team to watch out for in the division that may be an opponent at some point. Oh, I think, you know, I was looking forward to Jack Eichel, Austin Matthews' rivalries. And they had that Thanksgiving weekend where, you know, Eichel and the Sabres stuck it to the Leafs just when I think the Bills beat Dallas, the Cowboys or something, on a Thursday game. So all was happy in the Peluga family.

But the post-Jack Eichel era now, I really like this team. I really, really do. I've loved the Toronto-Buffal rivalry. And all these teams pushing for the playoffs down the road, Detroit on the right track, Ottawa seeming on the right track again quite often that that last little step is quite often proves to be a quantum leap so we can see who can do that i mean that last step from being a vastly improved team to being one that's in the playoffs but the the sabers with all what's been going on and again right justin it comes down to goaltending. Like, which one of these teams gets goaltending?

That alone could be the deciding factor between Buffalo, Detroit, and Ottawa. I thought this was the time when these teams that are on that fine line just bail for Conor Bedard. Well, what's the point? First of all, as you know, if you're a player and you bail, that's great. You'll be watching Conor Bedard buying tickets in two years because you'll be out of the NHL because you'll be on a team that was terrible and got a reputation for tanking. So, you know, we had a weird one in football, right?

Like did the Houston Texans coach get fired right after the game because he, you know. I didn't get to know. I probably knew he was done well before that. I know, but the fact he got fired right after the game, that pisses me off. That never should happen. You should wait until the next day. Come on. And I think they got ticked that he, you know,

they went for a two-point whatever. But my point being is, if you go to me, Carmelo bites you in the ass. If you go and try in any way, shape, or form to tank or some portion thereof, if you come dead last, you still have a one in four opportunity. Good on the Blackhawks. They won two games on the weekend.

They're only two points ahead of the Columbus Blue Jackets. But, Kippy, you're 100% right. We all know that. There's no question. This is a very, very special draft lottery. The Leafs won a pretty special one, too, when they got Austin Matthews. Gord, you're very special. So special.

That's what it said on my report cards when they asked me to repeat the grade, so I don't know how to take it. He's very special. Tries very hard. Not willing to work with others. Gord Stalek. Alright, pal, really appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this. Hey, I think it's too late, but Happy New

Year still, guys, and all the audience. Talk soon. Take care, buddy. Thanks for doing this. Hey, I think it's too late, but Happy New Year still, guys, and all the audience. We'll talk soon. Take care, buddy. Thanks, Gord. See you guys. What is the cutoff line? Larry David does not like that.

What's the cutoff line? Jan 7th, I think, on the show is Larry David's cutoff. Is that right? I think so. You get one week. We're nine. You get one week of Happy New Year. Yeah. And then you're just not that important to have got you

in the first three days or four days. I go first business day after New Year, and then I'm back. That's tight. What if it's the first? The second's not the New Year anymore for you? Yeah, the first business day. Because usually it's a holiday to first, and then whatever is after that, I'll see people on the first Happy New Year, second Happy New Year, and then after that, I'm not saying anything.

That's just a guilt. Happy New Year. For sure. We weren't worth it to him to text early. I gotta say. Do you want the text? Do you want the blanket text that goes out

to someone with 600 contacts? Yes, I do. I got a shockingly low amount of Happy New Years this year. It's usually... They've listened to this show, obviously. He's not helping your rep being involved with this show. Disappearing Christmas.

I know. I know. Diamantes. Do we... First of all, tanking isn't... It's not talked about in the NFL. I know everybody's talking about Houston right now,

but it's not as prominent as the talk in the nfl i know we everybody's talking about houston right now but it's not as prominent as the talk in the nhl about tanking for a top pick is that fair to say sammy that's a good question it's also like in the nba it's worthless like they're the first overall pick doesn't always move the needle the way it does in the nhl i i don't really know because it's like i feel like the nfl's talked about so much but maybe not here like i don't consume it the same way as i do hockey talk where we talk about tanking all the time but i think it's harder to tank in the nfl i there's so many you know it's there's so many guys on a team and having i i don't know i i really don't know how to answer that question but the whatever i know is the houston texans yesterday that was a debacle

how do you let that happen i didn't see it oh my god they went for two what trying to win how do you let trying to win happen is that what you're saying if you're the owner if you if you are the general like it's insane that you won that game. They won the game and lot out of the first overall pick. It's the most, it's remarkably bad. It's not good. Remarkably bad. I saw Bears fans celebrating. Just the mere that you're having this discussion kind of turns my stomach a little bit.

You're talking about almost fixing a game. You have to fix the game. If you're the general manager you take you're like oh davis we're asking people to he's got a hard-earned money and you're talking about fixing a game so have you heard that's not right sam but here's the thing they reflected in the gambling lines if you're like hey none of our starters are playing then the colts become a 11 and a half point favorite like it changes the the gambling thing you have to announce what you're gonna do but you can't let your starters play that game.

You have to do everything in your power to lose the game. The NHL is probably going to have to announce their starters sooner. Just like the Vancouver Canucks need to do everything. They just like the, the Flyers who's think need to do everything they can do to be bad. Now Kipper. The Flyers. Yes.

No, they're, they're still thinking that they can be a sixth or seventh team in the playoffs. It's ridiculous. They have no cap space. They are a cap team. Zero. Let's fix this where it doesn't reward teams that are bad.

Agreed. Have you heard of the gold system? You know, there's all these different ways to try to fight back against tanking. And the hockey theory that I have seen online is the second your team is eliminated from playoffs. Every point you earn, whoever earns the most points from then on. Has the best chance to draft. You get the first overall pick. You're playing for the pick.

So your team's eliminated earlier because you're worse. You have more games to try to accrue those points. So you're saying just flip the tanking part instead of the second half tank in October. You can declare in this system

you can declare out of the playoffs. You can do it right from the first game of the year. Say, oh, that's so good for season ticket holders. Well, they're playing to win every night. At least they're playing to win every game and earn points. You know, trying to get the top pick, which at least I'm entertained. I don't know.

Better than watching a team trying to lose. I'm not saying it's a horrible idea. I like the fact that you're thinking about ways to get away from the conversation of purposely trying to lose. Yeah. In a now gambling world. I think every... It's just not even a gambling world. It's just a world where you should try to win hockey games.

Yes. A pro team. It's just integrity. Yes. It's just all yes it's just all about integrity and we've lost integrity integrity of the game of the game yes of sport of competition yes the point when the puck drops is you everyone involved in your organization should want the team to win the game crazy concept i know but we are currently incentivizing the

wrong thing that's exactly it. If you want to not have that incentive for people, then fix it. I don't know if that works either. There's no way to do it. How about every team who misses playoffs has the equal chance to get the number one overall pick? You miss playoffs, you get a lottery ball.

One team has a down year. You've missed the playoffs by one point and then get Bedard. Good for you. You're trying to win though, right? Yeah, I guess so. I guess so, but yeah. Are you going to be close enough to the playoffs

you're going to throw the last game or two of the year to get the pick rather than play in a playoff series? I know we got to get to break, but I'm watching the Flyers again last night and who on this team are you either building around or you think that you could like trade for top value i'm not sure there's anyone that i would be super excited about getting travis connect and he has as many goals as austin mat Austin Matthews Perfect Number one Okay That's it Carter Hart

On a championship team Where do you have Travis? I've got him as a 6-9 He's upscale Michael Bunton He's a mid He's not a star Yeah And he's not a core guy

He is a support guy At the very best On a championship team. Agreed. Hayes, mid guy. I love it. He's mid. He is mid.

Mid. How much money he makes? Where? He makes 7.1 until 2025. I'll put him at making the quarterback of the least power play. And then you traded for roots. Elaine. And you gave up a player,

a player. I forget his name. Robert hag. Yeah. A first and a second, a second. And then you gave them 5 million bucks for 25 years. 5.1 till 2026,

2027. Where are you going with this trade? What the hell? I i'm like this is the thing is that they're trying to win now they got justin braun was there torts is the coach they got torts is it clearly a squeeze every last drop out of the guys for every point you can get guy joel farabee see they should be deducted points for stupidity they're the type of team yes they they should they shouldn't end up with a first pick overall because you don't know how to tank you don't know how to win you don't know anything what would you say you're trying to do here i you know i they're genuine

all right they rock we got ourselves in trouble on this conversation whatever all right let's take a quick break. Bob Stauffer is going to bail us out of the East to go to the West. And the Oilers, the Flames, who would ever had Winnipeg leading the charge at the halfway point? Shocker. We'll get Stauffer to tell us that and more after the break. Listening and watching Real Kipper and Born.

When you aren't listening to Oilers Now, Bob Stauffer can be heard and seen as a panelist on NHL Hockey on Rogers Regional Broadcast for the Edmonton Oilers. Let's welcome in Bob Stauffer. Stauff, thanks for doing this, man. How are you? Not bad, Nick, except it's raining in Los Angeles. And, you know, when you live in Edmonton, which is the most burgeoning city on the planet

of over a million people, you come down here. Damn it, you want a little bit of sun over there. And we're in the same hotel as the Georgia Bulldogs entourage. And I don't know if you know this but i'm a huge alabama fan and my buddy is a concussion specialist that is post-grad at georgia so he's a neighbor of mine and we've been going at it for years i've actually been in sanford stadium in georgia when atlanta was still in the nhl so uh whereas last spring when the orders play the Kings here, there were hundreds of Oilers fans down here,

there are thousands of Georgia Bulldogs fans that have come down for the NCAA National Championship game. It's wild. Let's just say the hotel bar was full well past 4 a.m. last night, which is usually when I shut it down. So I was a little bit disappointed I couldn't get a seat at the table. So all these football fans asking you if the Oilers are going to hold on to the first wild card spot? Not the ones from Georgia.

I do like screwing with them, right? Because as a former SID at a Canadian institution, we had a trivia contest back in 2004 in Calgary. We did College Sports Information Directors of America. The only time I was ever held in Canada. They all knew their own conferences, the American guys, but they didn't know outside of their own conferences.

So I kicked their butt in this trivia contest. They didn't know that I was also hosting an afternoon sports show as well. And they didn't know that I was also hosting the afternoon sports show as well. And I absolutely get you lost to the Canadian guy in NCAA college football. You should be embarrassed. We're going to do CIS or, you know,

CIS college hockey trivia. That's going to be the, we'll find out whether or not you guys know anything about the UNBB Reds or Mike Keenan and the then Toronto Mercy Blues and all that kind of, we'll see how you guys doing that. It was just beautiful, man. You guys would have loved it.

So, Stop, we were going through a pretty heavy conversation about the goaltending situation in Toronto. I got to ask you now with the Edmonton Oilers and Stuart Skinner, and clearly he's seeing some starts that he's never seen before. The games are going to get heavier. How ready is he on this, and how could a guy like Jack Campbell get back in there? Well, one of the things that's happened with Jack Campbell is he's finally, after 10 years, modernized his equipment.

He's made a significant shift in that regard. Yeah, and I just had Mike McKenna on my show from daily face off and we talked about this. So Jack's last two starts have gone a little bit better. Skinner's going to start tonight. Skinner's wife is pregnant. It's their first child Stewart's from Edmonton. He played for the same athletic club that I did as a kid. He was obviously better because he was actually good enough to play in the Western league and I wasn't, but you know,

bottom line is he's going back after the game tonight to be with his wife. And so Campbell's going to get the starts, I would think, Wednesday and Friday against Anaheim and San Jose. It's, you know what, it's one of the storylines that, you know, the Oilers yet again, a very pedestrian first 40 games of the season, just like seemingly each of the last four years and Campbell initially was a challenge for Edmonton I mean you know he can't have a sub 880 save percentage and have long-term sustained success with that so he kind of lost the number

one job to Skinner you guys would like Skinner he's big he's He's six foot four. He's thick. Oh, he's got some upside. For sure. He, you know, he's, I wouldn't say he has necessarily elite reflexes, but he doesn't have to because he's positionally sound. And the biggest thing that guys would like about him is he is the lowest maintenance guy.

Like, I could not handle, I don't like high-strung goalies, and I don't like goalies that you know, stare down their defense after a giveaway or a blown assignment or something like that. He's the antithesis of this. He is as chill of a 24-year-old netminder as you'll find anywhere. And he always wanted to be an owner, and he's got a big chance to have a long game. Campbell's case, they've got the equipment's played at factories he's

been better in his last couple starts and the orders have actually only given up 14 goals over the last six games like they're not on the defensive level at toronto was for that sustained run that the leafs have had but they're playing marginally better campbell's played marginally better and skinner's been one of those stories of the season for edmonton so far you know the oilers confuse me, Stoff. You know, their team I don't bet on for or against. I just don't touch their games because I feel like I never know what you're going to get from that group.

What are some of the challenges with consistencies? Why does it seem to me like they can beat good teams, they can lose to bad teams? You just don't seem to know what's coming. One of the things that that happens just and i think with edmonton is they need to realize that when you have mcdavid and dry subtle teams get up to play every team every team so when the orders are motivated to play so like they won in tampa bay this year and they've beaten carolina uh won in Dallas. They've won some games

against some good teams and then they've hit, you know, here I'm going with this. So I think that they've got to ratchet up the level of the, frankly, the other thing is their defenses, they've missed Duncan Keith on the back end. And I know you have an analytics flavor

to you. I do too. I have time for it. But when the Oilers made that deal, it got absolutely eviscerated in the Edmonton. Why would you take Dustin, you know, Duncan Keith at full price and, you know, the cap and everything else? Well, his play with Evan Bouchard in the second half of last season

was a major storyline for Edmonton. You know, he really settled the team down and they have not replaced him. Kulak's had to play basically second-pairing left shot D minutes of Barry. Bouchard hasn't been the same player this year. He was sixth in the league in five-on-five scoring last year in terms of, you know, factoring in time on ice.

Like, I think he was 11th overall league in five-on-five scoring for defense, and then sixth if he factored in time on ice. So, you know, I look at the defense of the team. It wasn't good enough early. It started to improve. And then the other thing that was supposed to happen was they had a secondary wave of forwards that were supposed to come underneath McDavid, Dreisaitl, you know, Hyman and Nugent Hopkins,

because Kane's been out. And those guys just haven't delivered. You know, Fogle, more so, frankly, Pugliarvi and Yamamoto. You know, Jesse Pugliarvi, it's a conundrum. I don't think we're going to get figured out here in Edmonton. I got to tell you that right now. But last year, Yamamoto had 14 even strength goals

at five on five, and Fogle and Pugly Harvey each had nine. That's 32 this year, that trio who are now making 4 million more than they were last year. That trio has combined for eight five on five goals in the first 41 games. Like they're at half the rate they were at the year before. And even though the team's fourth and goals for, there's been times where, you know, Yamamoto and Pauly Harvey have played over 400 combined minutes with McDavid and Drysaddle this year.

You got to have more than five even strength goals between the two. Like, I'm sorry, like Derek Ryan plays nine minutes a game. He has five even strength goals. And Clint Costin was in the minors before they recalled him. And he's got five so it's you know I could look to Jack Campbell's start I could look for the team defense it needs to be better but they've also got to get some more secondary scoring support as well okay I want to get into uh that blue line but first and foremost is there any way to quantify what the loss of

Evander Kane has meant to that pecking order that you just talked about? No, because I think your fans get it. Because I think that, you know, the listeners in Toronto, probably a little bit exhausted. Like, the Leafs have run up against a different caliber of playoff opponent than Edmonton.

Like, Edmonton played L.A. last year without Drew Dowdy and Victor Ardvidsson, who was an important top six add. Toronto's lost to some really good teams. Let's exclude Columbus in the bubble. But you take a look at, you know, you lose to Tampa Bay. That's a good team. Boston, that's a championship pedigree team.

You look at Edmonton, and they lose a cane. And he gave them something that they didn't have. He changed the complexion of their functional toughness in the top six with an edge and a goal scorers. Mattel, we guys scored 35 goals in 58 games last year, Nick, between the regular seasonal playoffs. And he gave,

you know, I, I hate the word swag. I think of a Winnipeg blue ball or swag or right. Well, whatever, like it just, he gave them some juice,

you know, and they're not the toughest team to begin with. And I know the criticism of the Leafs is they haven't had a playoff-type team because they haven't had enough toughness in the lineup. You've got to have functional toughness these days. And Evander Kane brought functional toughness to the Edmonton Oilers. They're going to get him back well before, I think, the playoffs, right? They're going to get him back well before anybody thought.

He's on this road trip right now. He's been around. He said, I'm a quick healer. I think he's going to try to talk his way into playing next week against Seattle. I don't think they're going to let him, but I do think the Oilers have a break between January 28th and February 7th, and I think he's going to try to play in the third week of January when Edmonton's at home against Columbus.

He's a month and a half ahead of schedule. Stoff, it's always fun when that analytics community you reference goes to war with whatever the other side of the debate is. Yes, Apulia Yarvey's been that guy for you guys, hey? Is he going to get traded out of there? You're right, you can't play that much with great players and not produce, but the numbers like him. What are are your thoughts the numbers haven't liked them as much this year no is he are they down yeah and i and i i i'm going to say this right

now like edmonton has to commit to resources on the analytics not every team has to have what toronto has like toronto invests a ton in that regard. But I think the owners do have to. It can't all be gut analytics. There has to be a combination of the two. It has to be used. There's teams that do a good job of it that don't talk about it. Colorado.

Yeah. Right? I get it. New Jersey. Florida is a heavy analytics team. And they changed the culture of their team of the trade, and suddenly they've gone from being the president's trophy winner to a team that's probably in a worse position to fight for a playoff spot

than Edmonton. Like, I'm fairly confident the owners are still going to finish somewhere between 47 and 52 wins. They're not tracking or training for that right now, but with Paul Yarby, I would be surprised if he finished the year in Edmonton. Is there anybody that believes that the Oilers can have success with Darnell Nurse and Cody Ceci as their number one pair

and then backed by Tyson Berry and Kulak? I got to get another defenseman, Nick. You know that. Justin knows that. All your listeners know that. Justin knows that. All your listeners know that, and I expect that to happen. Okay, so tell me, like, what's it going to cost them to get that guy? Because it's a significant pickup, I think, to take them to another level, and it's going to cost them what?

Yamamoto, Dylan Holloway. Who? Who? Who are we talking? Are we talking Jacob Chikrin? If it's Jacob Chikrin, I'm led to believe it's two number ones. And not a prior number one, but two future number ones because of the sort of time frame that Bill Armstrong is trying to build in a number two. So obviously they'd have to take some money back in that deal to make it work for Edmonton. I'm not, I mean, you guys tell me, we have this debate with our listeners every day.

If I'm one of the top end forwards, I want another guy that can transition the puck. See, I have a, I have a simple theory. The less time you spend in your zone, the better your chances to win. You might be onto something, you know, like if you have, I think the game's changed. I think from 10 to 12 years ago, maybe you wanted, you know, two really good transition slash transport defensemen and three or four guys that could stop cycles.

And I wonder if today's game is more about having three or four guys that could outlet or transport the puck up the ice and maybe just one or two guys that are more defensive-minded in nature. So, you know, do you want Joe Ladd? Do they want to get in on Edmondson? He's been hurt a bit. He doesn't move the puck well. Gavrikov and Columbus, yeah, he can stop a cycle, but you watch his puck skills.

He's had some games where, you know, he's had some of the worst defensive games analytically in the league the last couple years you know or do you step up for chickering and get a guy that's got an offensive dimension some people might think he's too much like darnell nurse so i think that i think fans in toronto get it darnell nurse capitalized like the owners have never really replaced oscar clef oscar clef mom's supposed to be in the last year of a seven-year deal at $4.25 million. He has been a substantial loss for Edmonton. When Ken Holland came here, you guys, he had three top four defensemen.

He had Clefbaum, an emerging Darnell nurse, and then he had Adam Larson. You guys know Larson's father suffered a heart attack in Edmonton after a 30-hour travel day, and he just wanted to move on. And it was understandable. Like, he chose to go to Seattle. They never even discussed money with Edmonton. But the loss to Cleft Farm was a killer because it also, you know, allowed Darnell Nurse to be, like, the owners were prepared to walk away

from Kane and Dan Milstein in the summer. They couldn't do that with Darnell Nurse to be, like, the owners were prepared to walk away from Kane and Dan Milstein in the summer. They couldn't do that with Darnell, especially also given the fact that, you know, Darnell and Connor are pretty tight as well. So Darnell is going to get paid, and, you know, his camp won that negotiation. And unfortunately for Darnell,

he's not on the world's best power play on that first unit, so he doesn't get an inflated 15 or 18 points a year to take him from say you know high 30s low 40s into the mid 50s where maybe that number appears to be more palatable at 9.25 billion yeah it's funny how that makes a difference they grab a couple of free points and all of a sudden everyone goes ah 50 point guy um i want to get your thoughts before we let you go on the other team in alberta what's up with calgary you think they're for real or not they can't seem to find any traction they lose to the blackhawks on sunday what's going on there i think calgary is going to be fine i think i'm going to add another four yeah i i you know can

five teams out of pacific make it i don't know i think the orders are going to have to the one thing i know is the last three years edmonton's second half of the seasons have been way better they've been 650 678 695 points percentage over the last three years Edmonton's second half of the seasons have been way better. They've been 650, 678, 695 points percentage over the last three seasons in the back half. They usually start the year well. They have a swoon from the middle of November until the end of December, and then they pull it together in the second half of the year.

They're going to need to do that again. But I think the Flames have got a pretty good team. Brad Traylor, even though Kachuk's a hell of a player, he won that trade all day. And they're going to add another forward. The Oilers will be adding a defenseman. And one, if not two, bottom six forwards by the deadline. So whose heart gets broken?

Seattle's? Colorado's? They can't miss after winning it. No, Colorado's going to get their guys back and then they're gonna trade for a senate like they're gonna they're gonna be in on o'reilly of st louis you know never right off st louis because they've appeared to be dead before and then they get back in the race uh but let's just say they're not and they decide to move o'reilly jonathan tase in chicago to colorado or o'reilly to colorado or even horvat who knows but uh i i think i'm They're not, and they decide to move O'Reilly, Jonathan Tays in Chicago to Colorado,

or O'Reilly to Colorado, or even Horvat. Who knows? But I think Edmonton and Calgary both make it. Maybe I'm delusional, but I wouldn't write the flames off. That's for sure. All right, pal. Really appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this.

Call any time, guys. Take care. Thanks, Tom. On the Edmonton Oilers. So he thinks Edmonton gets in calgary gets in and what st lou or uh seattle falls off the face of the earth in the back half i think there's a lot of people counting on seattle falling off the face of the earth problem is they still exist and they're playing pretty darn good hockey four Four in a row. They've won. Four in a row.

They just beat Ottawa 8-4. They go into Ottawa and they look deep. 22-12-4 plus 17 goal differential. They look big and deep. They have four lines.

They got some D. To me, there's one playoff spot in alberta yeah i think that might be a really good point i don't know like i i just can't i don't think st louis is getting back into it i think they're maybe they're probably gonna pivot here we believers in the kings i i believe in the kings i do well they're gold differential but i like a lot of their guys i think they'll be in the conversation, but to me, it's going to be a... Because Colorado's going to stoff nail that. They're going to get their guys back.

They're going to make a trade. They're going to get hot. They're going to be in the playoffs. Colorado, Edmonton, Calgary, Seattle, L.A. The goaltending. Minnesota. The goaltending for Colorado, I think, would still make me nervous.

They've been pretty good. I was looking at this last week. They were surprisingly high. But it would, you know, the thing about we're going to be good later is you don't know what's around the corner. And I think to the New York Islanders who started last season on a 13-game road trip and the whole thing was, ah, just, you know, tread water, tread water.

And then after that, you got this huge home schedule. Then they get COVID, they're brutal, and the season's over. With Colorado, it's like they're putting themselves in a position where it all has to go right. It's not guaranteed to all go right. You're right. They have to make up the points that they've lost,

and that's not always easy. They're not that far out of it by any stretch. West is so bad. It is. Get the Leafs in the Western Conference. In fact, by points percentage, they're actually in Colorado. Get the Leafs back in the West. Did we touch on Boston sweeping?

Briefly. Briefly, but. They swept it? Have they played all their games out there? LA, San Jose, and Anaheim. What was the final in Anaheim? 7-1. they won by a touchdown in the third game of a long road trip i just i love how remember when we was that thursday we're like oh they gotta go out to california oh what is boston bang bang bang three you know what are the boston bros thinking with pasternak right now. Pasternak scored seven goals in California in three games.

What do you say? I wouldn't even look forward to that negotiation. Do you consider Boston your hometown? You do. That's great. Have you heard of discounts? He's already been on a discount. His contract he's on now has been a massive discount. I'm just saying what you say to him.

They're in make-up time. they're making up for lost time they might have to let him go no because all those other guys are gone too burge is gonna go isn't he first you're gonna leave uh the sense is that they wanted to stick around for one more crack at this burge around for another i think I think Krejci could get talked into another year. Yeah. But if it, I don't know, could they pull a, no, they can't. They're going to do well. They have so many. I was going to say, if they get like, they pull a Tampa Bay and get swept in the first round, does that blow everything up in terms of those two guys coming back i just can't see it i feel those jenga jenga blocks are teetering and they keep removing pieces and they're just fine

but i feel like one of them like a bergeron retirement's gonna knock the whole tower over they have so many ufas next year but pasternak can help save that a. And McAvoy. Ah, yeah. I mean, he can. How bad do teams have to get now in their transition mode? Like, it's so. Yeah, it sucks that teams have to bottom out or something. I don't know.

I mean, most recently, I just remember when the New York Rangers, so yeah it sucks the teams that's like bottom out or something i don't know i mean i had most recently i just remember when the new york rangers well how long ago was that remember that letter yeah i do and everybody was just crapping all over them what did it really take that window for the rangers 18 months later they were good again under three years. Is that what it was? Yeah. Under three years where they were able to kind of tell everybody, we're not going for it and we're hoarding in these assets and be patient. And then what, three years later, they're relatively competitive hockey club. And they went out and they signed Panarinarin they traded for zabatajad what was the leafs bottom out like they're in playoffs in 2013 they bought them out two years later and they're in playoffs the year after right

that's pretty impressive bottom out and turn around i just think of teams like yeah you're right yeah you know i i think it seems like chicago and how they fight the bottom out for so long and try to keep your head above water. It just doesn't seem sustainable. The Kings had to bottom out after their success. Tampa's medicine is coming, boys. They are going to pay for trading first. Everyone's like, oh, Goudreau and Hagel and Coleman.

Great. Very, very true true it was worthwhile but they're going to pay but they don't have the salary cap down there so it should be fine that's a good point yeah they play without the cap somehow they're a capitalist team if bought if uh if if horvat ends up in boston do you see boston sucking uh in two years if they lose bergeron and uh if they lose those two guys and they find a way to trade for horvat and get them that's it's a pretty good transition yeah but if you're asking me if i can see horvat on a bad team

like he's on the canucks you know like it like it's not like I don't think Horvat alone is enough to protect them. If it's Horvat and Pasternak and aging Marchand and the end of Taylor Hall's deal. Marchand's not going anywhere for the next three or four years. He's a top player. He is, but I will say. But you have to sign him.

This is one of those things that's illegal to say and everyone's going to be mad at me for it. But like Brad Marchand, he's a point-per-game guy this year after being well above a point-per-game guy for quite some time. Like, maybe he's slowing down a little bit. Absolutely, killing him. Well, see, this is the thing. This is it.

Tough goal. Well, this is the thing. Do we want to acknowledge that maybe he's slowing down a little bit? He's a 100-point guy. He's got just next year or two more years on his deal. His contract expires in 2025, 2026. Okay. So he's got two more years.

Yeah. No, I'm not saying he's. Yeah. But if he's continuing to get this much worse. What's that? He is turning 35 in May. He turns 35 in May. Yeah.

I mean, if we're talking about Tavares at 31. That's a hard negotiation now. For? For what you pay Marchand on his next deal yeah you got a couple years to figure out what he's looking like but yeah he missed his window too to get paid oh honestly he really did he was just he was on heart trophy ballots for multiple years there yeah unbelievable player he could have you know timings everything in life as they say but he missed his window to become a long-term 10 million plus guy as he should have been bergeron's got 33 points in 40 games it's very good he's gonna get 70 points but he's had

higher numbers that guy if you chose could have signed somewhere else for probably two years at 18 million dollars yeah for sure do you guys want a wild who wouldn't have been right you guys want a wild patrice bergeron stat yes he's played five uh 472 minutes of five on five this season and the opponents have scored nine goals 1.15 they honestly need to name the selkie after him while he's still playing he's definitely getting it again yes anaheim's another bad team too oh my goodness they're minus 73 goal differential this year so jd asked sam some questions about the leafs can i ask you some halfway through the season questions?

What do you think the story of the Leafs season is so far? What is the overall the big picture story? My vote is goalies. I said the goalies are the story. Sam disagreed with that and said, what did you say, Sammy? Just the death march

to Tampa. The death march to Tampa is the story of the season. You can't really enjoy anything because it's just, you know what the prize is at the end of the year. You sound like someone cauterized your taste buds. You just can't taste food anymore. There's no joy. I'd probably say, for me, Willie Nylander. Interesting.

Yeah. Being just kind of solidifying that you put so much stock in four guys and he was kind of the last one to truly arrive. And I think he's arrived. That's good. MVP, I think we'll all agree. No, I think that's fair. I would say that he's gotten to a level that I never thought he could get to this year yeah see he's gone a step above what i thought i i think most hockey people would

have said that that's the level we've been all waiting for for a very long time interesting if you get 40 50 90 for 6.9 million or whatever yeah that's That's a hell of a deal. Talk about Marshan's deal being a steal. It's a hell of a deal. But keep in mind that he's looking for a new contract as early as July. Yeah. So. And he's just rooting for Pasternak, eh? He's like, go, pasta, go. And it's going to start with a one. That changes everything in terms of where this whole picture goes moving forward.

So I got six categories number two is mvp are we around the table in unanimous here on this marner i just yeah i just think uh overall when you factor in the penalty kill and the ask on on marner and i think last night's another example where like if you look at seattle or st louis if mitch marner is not there they don't win yeah he shows up he plays he makes that play to yarn crock last night this team only goes when mitch marner goes if mitch marner's not going they stink all right um which brings one of the questions that jd had was confusing storyline. There's something that can feel a little confusing.

And that for me is Matthews being 17th in the NHL in goals. Scored his 20th goal last night. You know, he's 13 behind Connor. You got guys ahead of him like Konechny being one of them. You know, tied with some 17th in the league in goals. Tied with Zach Hyman. Tied with Zach Hyman. Tied with Zach Hyman. That's confounding to me.

And we can't pretend that it's just like, ah, but his defense is better. It's weird. Anything for you? Yeah, I'm right there with you and everyone else saying that his overall play has dropped. Yeah. Or at least the consistency of being that constant threat is not where it's been in his 60-goal season

or even in years prior. There are times when he just looks ordinary. And that shouldn't be the case for the guy that's often been regarded as the second best player in the world i i think his defensive play has gone up a level though this year to me like i don't i don't think it's the reason that his offense has gone down but i do feel like he's more responsible even than he has been in years past yeah his defensive game is great he's a great defensive center and i will say this because i have gone on record on this show and i don't know if you guys remember but i told you if his goal

scoring drops off preseason yeah you've gone on segments there if he scores 40 and he's a great defense player and and but and and and he makes people around him better yeah ultimately it could be more beneficial to the toronto maple leafs and i i gotta stick with that and willie's having the best year of his career and willie you know willie's boat rises and does it come at the expense of maybe matthews a little bit or mitch marner if he can get hot and some guys can finish a lot better in the second half of his plays than in the first half then i still feel like austin will go into the first round is amongst the most dangerous shooter

and can score in the playoffs a goal a game can get on that kind of streak sure so we're just going to see how this thing plays out at the end it is i agree with all that it's just strange to me it's a big It's a big fall off. It is. Go ahead. We'll try to get these in. The underrated story. Is there a story that you don't think people are talking about throughout the team?

I'll give you Sammy's, which I thought was really good. Or wait, was it? I said that. Mine was Sheldon Keefe, Jack Adams buzz was my underrated story. Oh, was it? So I'm going to give myself credit. It was actually mine that I wrote down. Mine Jack Adams buzz was my underrated story. Oh, was it? So I'm going to give myself credit. It was actually mine that I wrote down. Mine was Morgan Riley as an underrated story.

And it is, is he power play one? What's his usage? Do you trust him? The team's worse defensively when he's in? Sheldon Keefe, Jack Adams buzz is interesting. Well, it's just like I did a whole thing on this with JD this morning, but it's like the guy lost how many players he fought through the early season crazy you know what storm with barry trotz and he got his guys back on track

and they're they missed a bunch of their top guys for a long time and they're just still humming along and gonna be a top five team in the league again to me it's like yeah and i'm not gonna win the playoffs i know sheldon should get the fifth most votes for this trophy. So the best team in the league is Boston Bruins. Jim Montgomery will probably win, right? Probably. He'll win. They've lost four hockey matches.

What world does he probably not win? You don't think, well, if they start sucking, I guess. That would be it. That would be the world. They're 32-4 and 4. I'm just saying he should be a finalist. Montgomery not win this thing. He should be a finalist.

No, they should just put his name on the trophy. There's three people, Kipper, that get named as the finalists. Jack, sorry, Sheldon Q should be one. You don't think that's fair? Carolina? list jack uh sorry um sheldon q should be one you don't think that's fair uh i don't carolina yeah and then the least or third in the league there's how about rick bonus like think about that for a second you stripped your captain you want to talk injuries and overcoming that how about that dressing room blowing up at the beginning of the year? Well, this award always goes to the overachiever award.

It should be called the best goalie and overachiever award as the coach of the year. So true. You know, how many times has Rod the Bod won it? And they're sick every year. Like it goes to a team that overachieves every year, and that's why Jim Montgomery will get it. Because his team's playing better than anyone would have ever imagined it yeah but sheldon's

he's he's there in conversations for sure i'm not taking that away yeah but he's he's a distant to i think jim mcgumray for me yeah the uh the other two categories an overachiever and an underachiever from the leafs roster this year um you know in terms of overachiever i i got matt murray matt murray going into the year i did not have high hopes for i watched him enough in ottawa so that that's my overachiever your bar was incredible like it really yeah nowhere nowhere he's at 9 16 he's been great on the balance who's overachieved for you this year kipper uh yeah you know what i thought there was going to be a drop off in bunting yeah and i think he's a better player today than he was when he had 63 last year yeah 63 points smart player he is a better player this

year he's a much better player and he's uh he's better well-rounded in terms of uh uh being around uh the walls three feet outside the blue lines three feet inside the blue line he's he's making better plays outside of a six eight foot radius around the net yeah sammy overachiever i said tavaris tavaris yeah like i mean the expectation what are we talking about going into this year? How much he was slowing down? He goes into camp, gets an oblique injury. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, and everyone's like, oh, he sucks. He's slow, all this crap. And he's back to being a point-of-game player. To me, he's overachieved. What is expectation? I'm scared of the 15 games where he didn't look good. Yeah. Prior to the weekend.

Yeah, but that's hockey. Yeah. Guys dip dip guys go up and he's smart as hell and he gets himself in uh shooting lanes as we saw last night and you just hope that uh he's another guy that can catch fire at the right time can't believe no one mentioned holmberg yeah i'll tell you what no one mentioned too is what mark giordano gave them to start and unfortunately i think we're seeing a little bit of the consequences the last little while his drop off for me has been significant in the last two two and a half weeks it has a yes i agree what are you seeing from him just not the same jump just yeah slow

a little bit and he's taking a lot of penalties it comes when holding penalties yeah it comes when the mind's not reacting or the feet aren't reacting so i grab a guy ally freddie was the best at this he could be we could be in our own zone for a minute and a half and then all of a sudden he lassoes somebody and it's the most blatant penalty i've ever seen my whole life and i'm like oh what are you thinking i'm tired and when i get tired I'll end the play. We should get Al back on the show. You know, we had Al on for one cameo.

I think he swore three times, told a story about riding a motorbike naked. The hardest F ever dropped in Real Kip Rimborn history. So just another guy that could use a few days off. He really got them through the patch without all their injured guys. He got them through. And another guy like Tavares, who if you're not gifted with your feet, you've got to outsmart them. You've got to be on the right side of the puck,

and you've got to make the safest plays, the outlets, all of that. He was gold in the first half. But don't – get him ready for April. But like Patrick Marleau, I hate the idea where the player says, I'm actually better when I don't come out. And you say, well, I don't care because I disagree. Yeah, we do not agree. You do not agree.

You are going to watch a couple games. Don't think for one second we haven't – You're 39. We haven't given – Sammy and I have circled days off for you. Your levels drop. In March and April. Don't worry about that. I think you're going to get complaints.

All right. Our thanks to Bob Stauffer out in Edmonton. Gord Stelic in the first half. We're back the rest of the week. You know where to find us. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne. Have a great night, and we'll see you all tomorrow.