Real Kyper & Bourne - Head Coaching Criteria ft. Craig Berube

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee are joined by Stanley Cup Champion and former NHL head coach Craig Berube (6:33), as they discuss what it means exactly to be a head coach in the league. They chat about handing down discipline to different players, how to handle goaltending tandems, and other intricacies of being a coach. Afterwards, the guys chat about other storylines around the league, including Christian Dvorak's season-ending injury and Jason Zucker getting suspended for three games. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

We are back. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Welcome to the national edition of Real Kipper and Bourne. We are live on Sportsnet. Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver and Sportsnet 960 in Calgary. This hour of Real Kipper and Bourne brought to you by Bet365. We just had Mike Richter on in our first hour. We're going to welcome in soon Craig Berube, Stanley Cup champion.

Mike Richter, Stanley Cup champion. Craig Berube, Stanley Cup champion. Yeah. Been a good day so far. Maybe the most different NHLers you could get. One guy is a goalie and the other guy had one billion penalty minutes. So I'll get some different perspectives out of these guys today. So as I just told you just before we went to break,

teammate of Mike Richter and also a teammate of Craig Berube because we kind of broke in same time, same era. Did you have to go head-to-head with Berube in practice? No. I was always that like middleweight yeah and i just middleweights didn't mess with heavyweights you just you didn't go there unless you had to go there but like i i wouldn't even have thought for a minute that i ever needed to battle him in any training camp does the middleweight class still exist in fighting in the NHL?

Does the heavyweight... Yeah, the heavyweight, how many guys do we have in a heavyweight? It's Arbor Jack guy and Ryan Reeves and DeLorea. And Wilson. And Wilson. What's the guy on the Sens? McEwen. Yeah, Marcus Foligno.

McDermott. Yeah, you know, so there's... A handful. MaybeEwen. Yeah. Marcus Foligno. McDermott. Yeah. You know, so there's a handful. Maybe 10 guys. Yeah. But the next guy, you know, the

190-pound guy who fights. The rest of the league are middleweights. Yeah, I know, but none of them are like a consistent fighter. I don't think. Yanni Gord's the only guy

I can think of who's 5'10 fights all the time. Well, not all the time. A couple times a year. Yeah. Those days. Pretty much gone. Yeah. I like Yanni Gord a lot. the time. Well, not all the time. A couple times a year. Yeah. Those days. Pretty much gone. Yeah.

I like Yannick Gord a lot. Good player. I'm just a huge fan. Like, it sounds like Ryan Reeves is probably clear to play. He does? Well, he's skating. Yeah. The last I heard, he's...

He talked about it at the start of the trip. He was like, yeah, I'll play. I'm ready to play. Oh, really? Yeah. There you go. But, I mean, I didn't really think it was necessarily newsworthy. It's a weird spot.

Well, we're not talking specifically newsworthy about him coming back, but just in general on the state of needing that anymore, when you need it, or when you feel like it's just seems those days are gone. Well, you just need to be able to play. Like Marcus Foligno has so much value because he plays all the time, and so does Tom Wilson. He plays all the time. These guys we're talking about mostly contribute, you know,

outside of once in a while fighting. Yeah. And Reeves has done that for a lot of years in his career. You know, hasn't happened yet this year. Tom Wilson's, like, turned himself into a core guy, a nucleus guy. He's been on NHL all-star team. Right? Mm-hmm.

And still have that presence. Yeah. Yeah. So you need to be able to, these days, to contribute in other ways as well. Maybe Bobby McMahon has turned into that. He got into a big fight last night. How do you think he handled himself? Fine. Yeah. Yeah. See think he handled himself? Fine.

Yeah. Yeah. See, he's a strong guy. He's one of those like crazy fitness. I think you need to, I don't know. I don't know if I would ever, if I was a player today, like the last thing I would want to do is just open it up. Like I was an idiot probably for a good portion of my career where i was like

let's just try to exchange a couple here like pj stocks fights you ever watch those fights but he's like let's punch each other in each other's mouth 11 times each we'll never see that ever again just keep them pretty tight to the vest yeah keep them in hit the ice you guys way too young for stan jonathan and bouchard yes that's but that's seen some you've seen it have you not yeah it's crazy i mean joey koser used to throw a fairly fast punch you know get off 300 punches in nine seconds we had a guy when i worked the score scott lewis shout out to him, who did a punch Corsi. He actually took the time to count punch attempts thrown in fights, and Joey Kosar was just an insane over-the-top puncher.

Wow, you guys are looking for stuff, eh? Pal, what a good time we had. You were looking for stuff. That's a great article. I'd read that. Does he love some more? I'll see if I can find it. Love it.

While we're sitting on Craig Bruby momentarily in the meantime, you know, I wrote real early this season in an article I did for the Toronto Star that I didn't anticipate any coaching changes at all. And I'm like looking like the biggest doofus ever. They're five? Four or five. Somewhere in that range.

Including Babs. Yeah. Yeah, okay. If you want to include Babs. Well, yeah, you wrote that after that, I guess. But like it just seemed like there's so many at the start of the season that you just. Well, you never would have seen Jay Woodcroft going, right? I mean.

But no one can trade. Never. You've made this point before. No one can make a trade. So everyone's just like, well. What do we do? dollar for dollar we can't do this we can't do that there's one thing we do and also the sends made a coaching change but then they didn't hire anyone yeah yeah then you know i didn't envision craig barubi getting no uh relieved of his duties and st louis and it's not like we sat here and said, St. Louis is going to be challenging for a Stanley Cup this year.

No. That was not expectations. But it was, when you listen to Doug Armstrong's comments, it was that there are games that they played regardless of the score he didn't particularly like which made it interesting because some teams it's like every time you found a way to win when you probably didn't deserve it it was like well we showed a lot of character tonight you know it is sometimes you know to sam's point there's just only so many things you can do. And yeah, are we, do we have them? We're just setting them up.

Okay. We're just setting up Craig Bruby. All right, let's welcome him in. There we go. Former NHL or Stanley Cup winning head coach, former teammate of mine. Craig, how are you, man? Thanks for joining us.

Hey, good guys. How are you? We're good. Thanks for having me on. Oh, no. Thanks for joining us. Hey, good, guys. How are you? We're good. Thanks for having me on. Oh, no, thanks for making time for us. So where are you? Give us a rundown of what the heck you've been up to in the last little while.

And, you know, I mean, are we talking to a few teams here and there? No, I'm just back in the Philly area to be honest with you with my family you know kids and stuff like um they don't come to st louis to just come and visit whenever so i've been back here for probably you know a week two weeks now at least and just kind of spending time at home with the family and uh running kids around everywhere. That's about it. Yeah, it's not too shabby. It must be nice in season every minute. I'm back working.

You probably feel well rested. Yeah, so that's really about it right now. You know, not much going on. You know, we've been talking about coaching here. You know, we cover the Toronto Maple Leafs fairly closely and and the challenges of coaching today and you know the evolution of the job and I just wanted to get your input on that on what coaching you know in in 2023-24 is like compared to maybe what it looked like 5, 10, 15 years ago, what that evolution has been.

Well, I think the league and the way it's set up now at the salary cap, it's very competitive. You guys all know that there's not an easy game and there's a lot of pressure to perform and be consistent and obviously make playoffs and try to do well in the playoffs. I think the coaching for me, that's what it's all about. I really do believe that. Now, there's a few teams that are in, you know, rebuilds or very young teams that are just trying to improve and get to a certain level. But most teams are, they're fighting to get to the playoffs and perform in the playoffs. Craig, when we look at coaches today and, and there's so much pressure on everybody, every player, the star players,

but, but coaches as well, it seemed like at times, if, if, if a coach wasn't comfortable with his roster, a general manager can go out there and make changes, you know, for him as small as sometimes it can appear publicly. It can make a big difference, whether it's a role player or, or, or somewhere in between a star, but it just seems like with so many teams and that inability to make moves, it just, does it amplify the pressure on coaches does that put the scrutiny

that much more on a coach to to to have to deliver and does that make it kind of a scenario where some guys maybe would have lasted longer and not been fired over maybe a gm making a few changes for him yeah for sure well again with the cap, the salary cap, and everybody's pretty tight to it or over it or wherever they're at, I mean, it's hard to make trades. And I think that you coach what – you're coaching the team you have. And you're going into that season basically you're coaching the team you have. And, you know, like I said, again, you're fighting to get into the playoffs

and perform in the playoffs. So I do believe that with the moves. Now, there is moves made at trade deadline and things like that that help improve your roster or make you a stronger team. But you've got to get to that. You've got to get there, and you've got to make sure you're in that, you're in that, you know, spot where you're going to make playoffs or you're very close. So, you know, once you get to those posts, to the post season,

obviously anything can happen. You guys proved that with St. Louis and your Stanley cup win, which was a pretty fantastic. So I'm curious about shaping the coaching you do in season to prepare yourself for that here in Toronto. Sheldon Keefe just benched David Camp for Saddam for a night and said, you know, this is about accountability. What are your thoughts on different rules for different players?

You know, the least you give a superstar today, is it different than, you know, your lower line guys? Or do you believe that sort of the same rules apply across your roster yeah that's a good question i think you got to look at the every situation is different yeah and i think you got to look at you know your best player you know he's it's different on every team i can't answer that question i don't you know you got to have a good feel for your team and your players and what's going on with your players. You know, there's times you're going to bench your best player. I don't think sitting them, scratching them out of a game is probably a good thing to do.

I don't believe that, but there is times that you sit them for a bit during a game if they're not performing at the level they need to be performing or if they're not playing a team game that you want, then you do have to send a message. I don't care what player it is, but again,

every coach is different and every team's different. I know you've spoken this publicly, but the Cairo situation at the end, did that kind of get blown out of proportion in terms of some thought that there was a ton of friction between the two of you? Yeah, for sure. Listen, I really like Jordan.

You know, what I did was just try to help him the best I can. There was tough love. There was all kinds of situations where we talked and communicated. And there was times I left him alone and just, you know, let him play. But I don't believe there was a lot of friction, to be honest with you. Him and I got along pretty well, I thought. And, you know, he just got caught off guard with the question and then it kind of got blown out of proportion, like you said.

You know, listen, I just want – my whole thought process was just to make him a better player and a better team player for us. Can I just follow it up with one more? So, Greg, in a nutshell, like, I mean, we kind of came up in the same era. We played. We competed against each other. How much harder is it for any coach today to hold a player accountable than it was 20 years ago?

Well, I think it's harder for sure. I mean, with money and situation and, again, salary cap, there's a lot that goes into it. You know, you're just not going to trade a good player away like that. I mean, obviously, there's players that get moved more likely in the summertime if they want to make a cultural change, then they'll move that player. But when you and I played, it was pretty black and white in how you had to perform if you wanted to stay in a lineup

and stay on that team. I think in today's game, there's a lot more communication that has to go into a coach and a player. You've got to really communicate with them and your general manager and really discuss situations and discuss players. You know, is it difficult? Yeah, coaching's hard. It's not easy.

But at the same time, I missed it already. Like, do I want to be back in there in a fight, in a grind? Yeah, for sure. That's what I like to do. So, I mean, but it is hard at times you know that's part of it well it is it's interesting to me you know we talk about coaching today and players maybe are more sensitive or they want to know why more you know you kept you used to talk about how you were just told you know sitting the edge of the edge of the bench or not even told just you

didn't get thrown over the boards now players want want explanations for things. But I also see a guy like Torts go into Philly, and I think he's a bit of an old-school coach, and they have success. And I see Tocchi go into Vancouver, and he's an honest, straightforward guy with players, I think, and they have a lot of success. What is it about these more hardline, honest coaches that are having success in today's league?

Well, you call them old school coaches, but they've, you know, they've learned over years of coaching and gotten, you know, different ideas and different ways of approaching players. Yeah. You know, I can guarantee it, you know, Torch is doing things differently

than he did back when he coached Tampa Bay Lightning um you know I'm I'm pretty pretty good friends with torch and he's done a hell of a job there in Philly they got a hard-working team that they play a team game not they don't really have superstars in their team they they outwork their opponent and they they try to wear them down and they win hockey games that way. And it's pretty successful. But I can guarantee you that Torts and Rick Talk communicate with their players on a daily basis about, you know, what they need to do better. And, you know, what's going on with them and their lives. But it can still be black and white and it should be

it's just it's honesty right just be honest with your player that's that's how i've approached my coaching is i'm just honest with my players and sometimes i like it sometimes i don't sometimes you have fights with them and sometimes guys just accept it and it's it's all kinds of things but again it's okay it's all part of the job you don't when they leave the room and you know it's not like i take it personally i don't anyhow maybe they do a little bit at times but they shouldn't it's it's all constructive criticism that you you want the player to be better you want them to perform better and you know it's all about the team and that's the biggest thing is like what's best for

the team uh that's the approach that you need to take in my opinion because what's best for the team you're going to have success right and that's what you want that's what everybody wants so it's all about what's best for the team talking to craig ruby former nhler stanley cup champion head coach with the st louis blues and that really hasn't changed over the years, I think. In any era, you can sit there and say, from Scotty Bowman to Mike Keenan and all these guys, they just wanted to do what's best for the team, and they were honest with us, but at times, brutally honest.

It seems excessive. And I'm not sure. Yeah, I think you got it. Listen, Craig, they were like, at no time did I think that they were thinking about me or my teammates and the state of our mental health, though. Today, that's realistic for you and your coaches today. And how is that playing in every time you want to address a player? Is that one of the first things on your mind?

Is how is he going to react? Or do you just tell him the way it is? Well, I think there's situations during a game where you're not thinking that for sure because you're reacting and you're probably, you know, upset about something or upset about the game. You're up, you know, as a coach, you know, you get fired up. I know I do anyhow.

And you, you probably, you know, say things and not thinking about what the player is going to feel like or what he, what he's going to think. But, you know, you know, it's the next day when you go to talk to the player and you bring them in your office, you gotta, you gotta talk to him. I think in the right way and know what's going to make him, you know, feel better about things or what's going to help them. So, but you know,

obviously the emotions get part of you during the game and, and in between periods at times. And, you know, you got, you do what you got to do and listen, the players are professionals. They got to get through it and they got to get over it. Greg, we've been talking a lot about goaltending today the the Leafs have Ilya Samsonov and the Miners they have you know a totally different I guess duo right now than they started the year with I mean how how difficult is managing them like the the goaltending position is so technically outside the realm of most of our understanding I I think, is guys who skated.

Did you rely a lot on your goaltending coach to say, here's who should start, here's what we should do with this guy, here's the rest he needs? Well, he's a big part of it for sure. I think all your coaches are a part of, you know, things. Me as a head coach, I communicate with my coaches, you know, daily about a lot of things. Goalie coaches, yes.

The goalie coach and the head coach discuss a little bit of a calendar going forward with the goalies and how you're going to use them. It changes a little bit, obviously, at times. But there's a lot of discussion with the goalie coach, for sure, on what's going on with the goalies and where they're at mentally. Your goalie coach basically has that job of discussion with the goalie coach for sure. And what's going on with the goalies and where they're at mentally at your goalie coach basically has that job of looking after his goalies and making sure they're prepared. He's going to give you a lot of information because I can guarantee you the

goalies are openly talking to the goalie coach on a daily basis of what's going on, where they're, how they're feeling and what they're thinking. Hey, Craig, there's no doubt about it. The game's cleaned up so much. Again, 20 years ago, there were two Craig Berubis on every team. But there's still some incidences out there that

you watch. Nick Cousins, for me, comes to mind. The last little while ticking off a few people. Ryan Hartman's out there causing havoc. I mean, were there times in the last few years you wish you had a craig brooby on on your bench in front of you to send out well i mean i would never i don't i would never send a player out but i i would want a player on my team and we had you know a guy like brayden shen and different guys robert vertuzzo we had, you know, a guy like Braden Shen and different guys, Robert Bertuzzo we had, we had, Patty Maroon back in the day.

I didn't have to say a word to those guys. They knew exactly what had to be done and they went and did it. How did you amass 325 PIMS in Hershey? I mean, how does that? A lot of fights. Yeah, well, I would have assumed. Well, I mean, that was my first year in a league, and I was really trying to, you know,

I guess make a name for... not make a name for myself, but just this is what I had to do to play and move myself up to the NHL. So, you know, it was a hard year for sure, but it was worth it because I think, you know, it was a big part of me getting to the next step and getting to the NHL that I could do the job.

But I'll tell you one thing. I don't miss those days. No. Craig, I got to give a shout out to bill mccreary a former nhl referee because there was one night at madison square garden where i did something to piss you off and you you charged for me like i could see like the the smoke coming out of your nostrils and my eyes are opening up going i'm a dead man and he just stepped in right between us and said hey craig you're done for 10 games and i'm like oh my god bill you just saved my life

i remember that you know who we can blame for that who's that jones keith jones because he when i don't know you hit somebody i think he you hit Peter Bondra, I believe, maybe. I can't remember, Nicky. But anyways, Jonesy was up, and you hit him. Jim Schottenfeld was the coach. He was yelling. He was all mad and pissed off. And Jonesy was standing up, ready to go over the boards. He goes, Chief, you go.

So I jumped over, and it cost me 10 games. I hope he paid your fine, the money you lost. Yeah, no, it's unbelievable. That was pretty funny. All right, so listen, you're ready to go back to work. No problems coaching in Canada, right? And maybe in Ontario? No, I think, I guess, guess no not at all I mean um you know anytime you can get to the you know

a Canadian market uh I think it's pretty special obviously to be part of a Canadian market team and coach there you know I'm just I want to make sure it's the right fit and um you know you got to have a good I think you got to have a good uh I think you got to have a good sense of your general manager and just the direction of the team and where they're at, you know, and make sure it's a good fit. Because otherwise, you know, you don't want to go into a bad situation, I don't believe, or someone you're not going to be working closely with, you know, day in, day out.

And I could see you coaching a player like Brady Kachuk. Yeah. Wishing for it. I could see it. I could see you coaching a player like brady kachuk yeah you're wishing for it i could see it i could see it well he i think every coach would like to have a brady kachuk well listen uh we really appreciate your time i don't think you're going to be out of work long and uh we can't wait to see you back behind the bench again soon thanks for doing this all right guys thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Thanks for your time. We appreciate it. How many penalty minutes in his career did he hit?

In his career? 3,149. I put it on the lineup, yeah. I mean, he just had some unbelievable seasons penalty minute-wise. How is he on the ice enough? 305 with the 93-94 caps. I guess that was probably the year. The one year he had 200 in the dub, he also scored

25 goals. Feared him. It's like, you know, just a big strong guy that just could just hurt you. Yeah, he looks like he'd still do that. Can I tell you, just watching him talk, listening to him talk, I'm like, yeah, I want that guy as a coach in my team. Yes, absolutely.

You know what it is? It's that, like, uncompromising honesty. Yes. Because of just the confidence in yourself. I'm saying, like, in all his years in San Luis, he just didn't need to say anything. They knew what needed to be done. Well, yeah, and you know what?

He has, you know, you think, okay, he coached the Blues for quite a while. He's been a coach in the NHL for 20 years. You know, like he has a ton of experience with this guy. So he would have seen, guys would know what he would want. He's good at getting a lot out of his players. And he is cut from the Rick Tarkett cloth. Yes.

No, it makes sense. sense you've got old and new to draw off of i think he's desirable enough as an nhl coach that it would make some team push a decision up that maybe they weren't sure they were going to make yes like maybe someone i'm not saying a lot about someone who has a coach right now says if we can get him do we maybe want to make this decision now? Totally 100%, JB, is that don't wait this summer to have three teams bidding on him. Go get him now. Feels like he probably won't make it to the summer,

if I was going to guess. I would agree with that. I don't know where it goes. I'm not an insider like you, Nicky, but I'm not sure. No, I'm an outsider. Elliot's our insider. Insider days are older. Now we're just vague innuendo.

And I say we. I'm not at all. No, we're like Pat McPhee explaining Aaron Rodgers. We're just talking. We're just shooting it. We're just shooting it. Nothing means anything. Nothing.

Would you like some game time? Yes. As you cringe over there you like some game time? Yes. As you cringe. It's game time, baby. It's game time. Presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 plus.

Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Now, I looked. It's been a while since I checked in on the Stanley Cup favorites. There are seven teams tied for the favorite of the Stanley Cup at 10-1. Okay. Can you guess the seven teams? 10-1.

I think Edmonton put themselves back there. Edmonton is one of the seven teams. Toronto's probably in there because they're Toronto. They're not? Nope. They're 14-1. Okay. So Vegas, Colorado.

Nope. Rangers. Carolina. Carolina's there. Dallas. Toronto's probably in there because they're Toronto They're 14-1 Vegas, Colorado, Rangers Carolina Dallas Dallas is there Florida Florida I'll just give them to you This is terrible radio I'm just listing teams

The Rangers, the Bruins The Colorado Avalanche, the Dallas Stars, the Edmonton Oilers, the Winnipeg Jets, the Carolina Hurricanes are all 10-1, and then next is Vegas at 11-1 and Panthers 11-1. Good for the Jets getting in there. Carolina and the Jets. What's Carolina up to? Yeah, they've been hot.

Yeah, they've – Four straight. Yeah. Just pasted the Rangers the other night. Yeah. Yeah, that did not look good. If you get goaltending, they're pretty legit. And they just, yeah.

So there you go. I'm just looking down. The Leafs, like I said, are 14-1. And then it kind of, you know, the Canucks are ahead of the Leafs 12-1. So it's crazy. A lot of Canadian content. Which is nice to see.

The other one I had for tonight, Conor Medard going to MSG tonight, which I think is very cool. I think it's always neat when big players play in New York. Dude, that's the right rules. First trip there, like him to score. Think any time goal plus 200, fifth player for the dramatic. And if you wanted to bump up the number a little bit,

Rangers are likely going to beat the crap out of the Blackhawks, who are not very good. But if you say Medard scoring a goal with the Rangers minus a goal and a half, pays plus 475. What's his pace now? Is he still 40? 40 goals? You got that many goals?

No, pace, pace. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For points, though, or goals? No, goals. I will tell you right now. He's got 15 in 37 games. So, Mathlete Borny, what is that? Yeah, I don't know. I need a calculatore borny what is that yeah i don't know

i need a calculator but yeah like i don't know 48 yeah so i mean he's got more he's in 37 very impressive for a guy that's sorry 15 and how many in 15 in 37 games all right but he's playing on a really bad team and the fact that he is 33 points in 37 games is pretty remarkable i know but like we saw it from game one dash 20 by the way which is probably uh bottom 20 guys out of 700 yeah it's not good yeah right i can't math it right now he's playing he's playing 22 minutes a night is he not 21 and a half well like if you've got a guy with that skill playing 21 he's gonna get his looks one of my favorite moments of the whole season was i think after his debut he came in here and we're all excited playing too much game two it's just in fairness

the point held yeah the. The point did hold. He's still playing that much. So, I'm looking at the minus leaders, the Masters leaderboard. I think it was Mike Commodore's thing. Minus 27 is the leader, Philip Zedina. Three Sharks in a row lead. And then, Conor Bedard is number eight. Yes.

Minus 20. Yeah. He's goingus 20. Yeah. He's going to have to fight. He's going to get that number down. I thought he's a lot for a bad team. That's just how it happens. The whole list, the top 10 is Anaheim, San Jose, and Chicago. Yeah.

There you go. I think there should be something, an award. A shame? Yeah, the green jacket. You have to do the walk of shame from Game of Thrones. The Cersei,

just a naked walk and everyone just rings the bell. A couple other ones quickly. Vegas in Panthers tonight in Vegas. That was a really greasy game last time.

There was a lot of scraps and by the end of the game Carlson, I forget who they were. I forget what happened but there was a big fight. I think Nick Cousins or somebody did something stupid so there was a fight think Nick Cousins or somebody did something stupid.

So there was a fight. Nick Cousins. Yeah. Vegas is an underdog, plus 100. Always liked them as an underdog. And Colorado is also an underdog tonight, plus money in Dallas. A couple other ones there.

Let me just say in this list of dashes that you have me looking at, in the worst bottom 20, Stephen Stamkos, minus 16 this year. Really? Okay, but that means also, like, who else is with him? Because he's not alone there. Mikhail Sergachev is minus 15.

I'm just looking for TBL. Darren Radish, minus 14. Nick Paul's minus 13. Wow. That's significant. You can't win. You can't win when you're shoveling the puck out of your net a lot more than you're putting it in.

Tanner Janot, minus 11, yeah. Tanner Janot minus 11, yeah. Tanner Janot, yeah, that was a crazy trade. Anyways, that was Game Time presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds. Find out why it's never ordinary. Bet365 must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

All right, nice job, Sammy. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll go through our news and notes on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. A lot of talk last night about Jennifer Botterill, Jamal Myers, and Sammy Cosentino going at it over the Hartman situation. I feel like we dodged a bullet here because we had the conversation

two days prior. Where we were all like, do it more, more content. Yes. Shame on you guys. Sweep that under the rug. All right, we'll get, we'll get our thoughts

in on that. Plus, Zucker suspended three games, which is a very big number in my eyes. Dvorak out

for the year. The Montreal Canadiens, so plenty more still on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Do not go away. Dvorak out for the year the Montreal Canadiens so plenty more still on the Real Kipper and Boren show do not go away alright we're back at Kipper Hill it's Justin Boren

Sammy McKee alright the story that won't kind of go away and kind of got gasoline poured all over it. And then the match dropped last night on our Wednesday night hockey panel. Jennifer Botterill, Sam Cosentino, and jammer Jamal Mayers spoke of the Ryan Hartman situation where basically he was looking for revenge off of a Dillon cross check on Kirill the Thrill

against Minnesota. And then Cole Perfetti became the innocent bystander, I guess, that Ryan went after. So that caused a little bit of an interesting conversation last night. And let me just preface by saying that as far as Jennifer Botterill is concerned and Sammy Coz and Jamal, we love them all. We respect them all. This is not us having a conversation to extend their conversation

on perhaps what ended up happening in social media was everybody like picking sides, right? And, you know, as I was driving and I was listening to an all-talk NHL show. Much like ours. Yeah, much like ours yeah much like ours and i think one of the announcers and i can't remember who it was but basically said oh the uh the harvard grad really and i'm paraphrasing but the harvard grad really gave it to the the two guys and that that one kind of bothered me a little bit because i don't think for one second that first of all i think it's an unfair comment because both of them can come from different sides and have certain opinions on it and it's not necessarily who's smarter or

who's dumber in this thing at least that's the way i saw it last night yeah you know sorry no i mean just to me they're just two completely different types of hockey players jamal mayers and jennifer botterill right like jamal mayers was a grinder but i think he played close to a thousand games maybe even made a thousand games in hl and he was a tough guy bottom half the lineup kind of guy heart and soul type of guy and jennifer botterill was like a prolific sniper throughout her whole career it just just, it almost was like he was Hartman and she was Perfetti. Right.

Like to me, that's perfect for a debate where you have the two sides of the conversation, which are like going at it perfectly. To me, that's what, I thought it was great. I don't know. I love it. I just think Sportsnet should love it because to me that is, you know,

you're representing the two sides when you encounter people. What do you think? What do you think two two sides well represented and i thought well discussed you know you kind of have a sort of a well-rounded look at the angles of it now i've shared my opinion on the play on this show two separate times so you guys know in general kind of okay with what happened but i in fact kind of like of liked it. But I get what Jen is talking about and how it's tough to encourage. Over my experiences of doing broadcasting

for over 20 years, I think, and I've been in a few of these conversations. No way. A few. Really? And the only thing I could say is that when you're talking that type of scope, and, you know, Carolyn Cameron, who does another terrific job,

but when you come out of the topic and you kind of throw a jump ball up in the air, and I think she kind of said, what do you make of it? There's a million places you can go with that story. And I think when you talked about where Jennifer was coming from, all those things that she said are absolutely legit, right? That there's no place for it in the game. It's dirty. It's reckless.

I think she talked about what would you think if that was your kid out there. And it's all legit. And then you have Jamal who's been in that situation before. Might have done that. Almost certainly. Yes. But he's just strictly coming from, like, this is why it happened, or this is where it could end up.

And he's giving it from the perspective. And I think they just went at it at two different... I see. Not meeting on the same... Not meeting at the same... Not having the same conversation. Like, if... If...

If Carolyn would have... Should have been in the game carolyn would have started the question with hey can we sell the game with this then you have a kind of an even kind of place where you're both attacking at the same area but when you leave it up as a jump ball uh jennifer went one place jamal went the other place. And then you got everybody now trying to pick sides on who's right or who's wrong. And it's like neither of them are wrong. No, it's great.

It's a great conversation. I actually really, the point that stood out most to me was Jammer saying that I think playoffs regress five years playing style-wise. Like, you know, how the game looked in terms of rough tough whatever that is sort of a postseason element and you know i think he is looking at it from a strictly hockey angle to your point like you know here's how your team has the best chance of winning more games at the end of the year versus yeah the sort of zoomed out is this good for the game do we want this to be a part of the game? Yeah. And the other comment I got out of last night from Jennifer is it's

archaic. And it's like, yeah, we know. We know it's archaic. It's been archaic for 80 years. Now, if you want to have a conversation on how do you change it, then I don't think

Jamal can have that conversation we can all have that conversation but her suggestion of stiffer penalties and making more people like yeah it's been a 80

year old conversation that one is they don't want it guys the league doesn't want it the league doesn't want it strong. The league doesn't want it. They want it archaic. The owners, the general managers, the players, they have the keys to this thing. They can make any rule changes they want, and they choose not to.

Including my movement before face-offs. If they want to, they should. Right. They should put that in. So I think, and jamal wanted to have a different conversation yeah that one and it's like this is why it happened and this is what players deal with and this is why he thinks it could pay off in the playoffs and he's not wrong on all on any of it no no i thought it was a really you know without getting personal a well argued point um

you know it's it's funny i think because we often hear of what happened as a threat right like when you played it's like you settle down or that guy's gonna feel it and you know pointing at their best player you that's enough out of you or it's on him you know we hear about the threat to see it happen then executed on a guy who isn't even their best player. It's just kind of a smaller guy. It felt a little like, you know, it feels over the top in that moment, whatever. And it's real.

It got all too real, I think, for people about what's going on out there. That was what was exposed. Which brings me to another conversation, because again, this is what stemmed out of last night's conversation on the intermission. And Jamal made this point, is that, yes, Jennifer, you can make that argument that it was deliberate because he was miked. We've got the evidence, right?

But not everyone's miked. And that same play without a mic looks like any other play. So how do you now crawl into what's going on between someone's ears to say that was deliberate, oh, and that was just an accident? It's too hard. I guess when you have it mic'd up, you just say, we know that's deliberate, so we're going to find it. But the players wouldn't wear mics then if that were the idea.

And again, us as Sportsnet, we would like them to wear mics as often as possible. By the way, did you hear Zegras on the bench last night? Can I tell you something? If I'm the Players Association, mics are off. Mics are off. Because here we are, we're micing them because we think it's selling the game

and then there's the argument that Jen had which was valid with everybody else on social media saying that ain't selling the game and it's like hey guess what don't pull the curtains back then but if you're not if you're the PA or whoever listen we're talking

about it we're talking about this play it's a creates an interesting moment it doesn't have to be we're talking about it. We're talking about this play. It creates an interesting moment. We're having a conversation about a conversation right now. Because of being mic'd up. You're trying to grow HRR. You want people interested. This is interesting. It's interesting, but does it sell

the game? Jen says no. It doesn't. There's a lot of people that agree with her. It doesn't sell the game. Do you think it doesn't sell the game? To me, the underlying tensions that we're aware of and that we're able to confirm with that, that has some value. I don't know.

I've been around this game since I was like. Nothing. This big. Yeah, this big. But at the pro level now, I'm 30, 40 years in this game. I think they're scared to take it out because it will make people more disinterested. I think they're scared. I agree with that.

And I don't know that they would be wrong. I think a lot of, and we've had this conversation a lot, they kind of see where this is going, right? Like the league sees where this is going in terms of players that are coming up in the way of the big hits that are going away. And I think they would probably want to keep that part of hockey. Yeah. Because you've said it.

I think you said the other day about you talk to American people. Like people love this kind of stuff. The physicality. Frankly, the fighting. Yes. And I think it's kind of going away. It's just the threat of the fighting. Yes. And I think it's kind of going away. It's just the threat of the fighting. Yes.

Yes. The general threat of chaos is what makes hockey, hockey. You want emotional investment from the athletes. Like sure. Skill is amazing. And the skill that's on display in the NHL on an every single night is unlike anything we've ever seen.

It's truly at an absurd level, but you want to pair that with the, like I said, is unlike anything we've ever seen. It's truly at an absurd level. But you want to pair that with the, like I said, the general threat of a banana sandwich breaking out. That's what makes hockey truly unbelievable. It's like the ballet in the back alley. You know? Bingo.

Give me the best of both worlds. Speaking on that front, ratings came out for the outdoor game seattle vancouver or seattle and uh vegas the the worst uh since the outdoor games now that is that two newish markets that doesn't hold interest on the east coast where there's large cities i gotta think so yeah yeah i gotta think so but we got the stanley. Yeah, I got to think so. But we got the Stanley Cup. Blackhawks, please. We got the Stanley Cup champions there. And like, we all love Mark Stone,

but can they sell Mark Stone? Yeah, they're not the most superstar laden team. To your point, Conor Bedard. They're going after Conor Bedard next year. No question about it. Or Blackhawks. The jokes don't matter to the league. It's time.

But Blackhawks, Penguins next year. It could be. It could be exactly that. I would bet a lot of money that it's either Blackhawks, Rangers, Blackhawks, Penguins, Flyers. That's interesting. Just go to the circle. Yeah, it might be. It's just because they're not relevant. They don't have any the circle. Yeah, it might be.

It's just because they're not relevant. They don't have any superstars. No, you're right. Do Connor versus Connor in an outdoor game. Canadian team, they won't do it. I know what you mean. What would you do for next year's? New York, Boston.

Rangers are pretty darn good. They're the ones that sell. Leafs don't sell? Can the Devils get involved with Jack Hughes and Luke Hughes. One of the highest ratings was the big house with the Leafs in Detroit. To me, if you put the Leafs

versus the Blackhawks at Wrigley Field, it's a huge number. You got Austin Matthews, biggest American star in the game versus Conor Medard on one of the most storied franchises. It sells. I don't know.

I like it. All right. Speaking of violence, Zucker, three games for retribution on Nick cousins. Three. I thought it was a ton. I thought it was going to be one.

I thought it was going to be a good Branson one. Yeah. Should have been one. Three is absurd. Especially after what happened. It is the most obviously premeditated of like suspended hits in a long time. He's traveling distance and he's like, he's not looking. He's still going to wear this one. Tough to even make the case

you didn't mean to, you know? And he hits his head. Yeah, maybe it was okay to have a given three but i think i think it's just we're seeing it through the lens of the crap that cousin's been doing all year yeah right and so everyone's like it makes it work it doesn't make it less bad that he did that because cousins has been rude and you kind of have to separate the two right for sure it can't be like, yeah, but he deserved it. It's not a case you get to make.

So, a bit hefty. All right, what else do we have? Dvorak out for the year. It's a bad trade by the Habs. What was the other way for Dvorak? First round pick, second round pick. I think his career high is 10 goals on the Habs. Yeah, no, you'd be right.

He's a couple. He had a good start to his career. Bergevin did a couple. I think he's just a bit of a number on that squad. I think he's that guy that you need really, I don't know, could you envision him having great success with Austin Matthews or Mitch Marner? Yeah, could you play him on a good team and put him in a spot to succeed? Well, the last time he played with Mitch Marner, he won the Memorial Cup.

So he played with me. Domi, too. Is that, could you do the whole line? Yeah, no thanks. Well, he's out for the year, so probably not. Yeah, good point. You cannot do that. Yeah, he's out for the year.

Good point. But yeah, I just. Cap it at $4.45 million dollars think back to some of the stuff bergevin did there you know he didn't leave him in a great spot you know taking who do you take cuck and yemi over brady kachuk yeah i think so i wonder how patient they'll stay in montreal in mont Well, they don't have. No, they know it's going to be another rough ride this year. But they don't suck right now.

I mean, they've been having a tougher go recently. I think Marty St. Louis deserves a ton of credit. They're like at 500. They're not like a total disaster. No. But you want the Montreal Canadians to be good it's better for the league big difference though in Ottawa

they're pissed yeah expectations are high and now they're just really ripping on the goaltending there yeah I mean can they make a move there though like it just the Corpus Salos contract is what it is

they made the move there, though? Like, it just, the Corpus Salo's contract is what it is. They made the move. Yeah. Like, it's way too early for a Corpus Salo. Jack Campbell. Samsonov decision. Oh, man. Right? You're not going down that path, but, like, how long do they wait?

Yeah. To your point, they need to probably make moves in the next couple weeks to keep people interested and start winning some hockey games. When's the next goalie that gets above $5 million? When does that happen? Martin Jones. Are you working tonight? I am.

I just do a pre-show tonight. Oh, and you got All-Stars. We will announce the All-Star teams. I have a guess. Austin Matthews will be the Toronto Maple Leafs All-Star. He has scored a lot of goals this year. That would be a guess. Austin Matthews will be the Toronto Maple Leafs all-star. He has scored a lot of goals this year. That would be my guess. 13 games on tap, including Winnipeg and San Jose,

Ottawa and Seattle, Calgary versus Nashville, Vancouver at St. Louis, and your Montreal Canadiens against the Buffalo Sabres. Pick a game. Give me Pittsburgh-Boston tonight. Enjoy it. Sounds good. And we're back tomorrow on Off the Rails Friday.

We're going to find Doug McClain somewhere. I'll try to dig him up. Maybe the Oilers coach. We'll see. Enjoy the games, everybody. Thanks for joining us. Give us a rating and review if you get a chance. Real Kipper and Bourne.