Real Kyper & Bourne - How Free Agents View the Toronto Market

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with their thoughts on the Leafs parting ways with Shane Doan. They discuss Doan's history with John Chayka in Arizona before getting into how Chayka's reputation will affect his ability to make deals around the league, how free agents perceive the Toronto market, and how Auston Matthews' comments will impact the team's free-agent outlook. Then, they discuss Mitch Marner's hot playoff run in Vegas and what that says about his Leafs tenure. Later, they chat about potential trade landing spots for Matthews, whether the Leafs should trade down from the first overall pick, and signs pointing to Craig Berube remaining behind the bench next season. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right. I'm back. Hooray! Start of a big week on the Real Kipper and Born show. We're live on Sportsnet at 360, 590 the fan in Toronto. Streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. Catch us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. If you cannot catch us live.

Nick Kippreos, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, Jake the Snake Shultz, AA? Andrew Adams? Yep. Wow. Not a typo? No, because I walked in there today to hand in the original lineup and it was him sitting there and he said Derek called in literally 10 minutes ago

so I had the chance to change. I like that you have to say with extreme caution. Andrew Adams? I like to keep you on your toes, guys. We got a terrific two hours. Gary Galley will join us at the top of the hour and Kirk Muller, who took a the torch.

Yeah. Last night. And an electric, electric night in Montreal. Oh, my God. First building that's ever been loud? I will say, it's a, it's a tough scene online. It's like, oh, my, oh, the Montreal building loud for a playoff game. Here's 5,000 words.

Like, yeah, shocker. Shocker, they like it there. Four unanswered goals and not a commanding lead in the series. but I think emotionally, people are feeling it right now. Tough to imagine a world where they get beat three straight here, isn't it? They look really good. They look really good. Surprised how good they look for the same.

In the meantime, what do you got for me in Leafland? I mean, what do you got? You've been away. It hurt anything? My daughter graduated this past weekend. Got a chance to hang out with her. Not too many. too many, not too much leaf talk in South Carolina.

I got to be honest with it. Hey, how was the graduation? I went to one in Florida for my cousin, a lot of pomp and circumstance. How was it there? It's a big deal. Yeah. It's a big deal.

I couldn't even tell you, like, my sister's graduation, like, I think I got mailed a diploma. And then my cousin, another Nick Caprio, stole my credit. What did you graduate from? Exactly. High school.

Okay. Yeah. Let's just be clear here. Dr. Norman Bethune, George Vanier. I got a lot of high school behind me. But not a big deal. Okay. That's awesome. Any recognizes down there? Anybody like, hey, Nick, I love the show. I got to be honest with you. So we're in this auditorium. There's about 9, 10,000 people. And the campus is sick. I would put this auditorium that they play, Clemson plays back.

basketball in. Yeah, yeah. Probably up against half the NBA's league for like a facility. Not probably, you know, shy about 8,000 people, but still it's phenomenal. I mean, that's awesome. So just prior to that morning, my wife's like, you don't pay attention to me. I say, I pay attention to you. I do, I do.

I do pay attention to you. So sure enough, before the ceremony starts, they honor, like, the military. and I wasn't paying attention. And they said, for those of you that have served, please stand up. And I'm thinking I'm standing up and applauding all the people in the military. And now I got like everybody like looking at me and applauding. You stood up and took around for service. And now I'm cooked.

I'm cooked because the moment it's over, people come up to me and they're asking me, you know, where I served. And now I'm like, there's no going back. So you committed to the bit? Yes. And all I said was special service, special service, like deep undercover. Deep, I can't tell you. It's classified. That is truly clear.

And then I raced out of there. Wow. Yeah, my wife was not happy, by the way. She's like, you're such an idiot. Yeah. Truly. Like, that's very Seinfeld. You love Seinfeld?

Who? It is extremely Seinfeld. Yeah, that's George in the limo, I guess. That's fantastic. Great story. Everyone here thought you were getting interviewed for various positions around the league. Yeah. That was the talk in Toronto, where?

Vancouver mostly. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's some, there's some, I mean, people had amazing theories in the YouTube chat line. Like it was just, you know, he's interviewing with Sundin. He's doing this.

He's in own sound. There was tons of different theories. I don't think they, Matt's or John need help at this point. No. Just getting their feet wet now. Sure about that? Well, we don't know. They're minus Shane Don, right?

Officially. Yeah. But not a real surprise there. Definitely no surprise. I would say that I listened to part my take today, which is popular American sports podcast, and Paul Bissonette was on there today. And if you're interested in the sort of the backstory

between Chica and Shane Dohn, there definitely is one. He explained it. He went through it, some of his sort of rationale for a cutout in the least. But like, there is a bit of a backstory with those two. And I don't know what the actual facts are, but there's some stuff there. I wasn't paying complete attention. But business team, biz. Sorry, Corporal.

What was that? Yeah, thank you. Biz is no longer like cheering for the Leafs. Yeah, he's out on the Leafs. He's done. Yes. And for personal reasons,

because it's tied into Shane Donne. Yes, and Shane Don't, when Chica took over the coyotes, when he was, what was, 26, right? And Don was near the last of his career. And he had had a bad year. And he didn't know if he was going to play anymore, but he didn't know what was going to happen.

Basically, Chica told him that he's not going to be part of it anymore. And then, you know, as a big Mr. Arizona, you know how popular is there. That was taken the wrong way. A lot of people in the league, a lot of people didn't love that. So that was a big part of the reason that Biz quit on them and sort of the context for the Chica Don't sort of relationship. Yeah, I think a lot of people thought don't should have been kind of tossed if you want to play fourth line for a million bucks. Year-end, swan song contract. Chika is a analytics guy and that was supposed to be more cutthroat and not good enough.

So, I mean, you can sit on either side of that. I think there's a fair case we made that Don't wasn't coming off some electric season, putting up huge numbers. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but I do appreciate the respect owed. And so, yeah, there's both sides of that. Yeah. Keep them in the org if you want in front roll or front office roll.

A guy back then and what, at 26, 27, be interesting to know if he could go back and do it all over again, whether or not it would be worth it to him just to say, okay, it's not like I'm making decisions now for a Stanley Cup championship. run here. Totally. Yep. Adding him on as a 13th forward, hey, I may play a 40, 50, 60 games. We'll see how injuries goes, but. Or how about special advisor to the GM or someone who knows the market's been around,

some way to keep him involved in Arizona hockey. Right. And Pierre LeBron, who tweeted about the Shane Don't thing, said that his contract with the lease was done on June 30th. So, I mean, it's just kind of like. I think Chike is showing up here. we all kind of knew the writing on the wall for Shane. And it seems like Don is probably the one who's like,

yeah, yeah, I'm not going to work for him. And whatever. His name's been in the hat for other GM jobs. So he's probably going to, you know, maybe catch on somebody to wear and move his way out. And just last thing from Chica's perspective, I know he's not doing that for a Stanley Cup, but it's his first crack at being a GM.

I get him being like, I need to put the best team on the ice possible. Ownership's not looking to spend money on extra front office roles. I'm tough to know where to sit on this one. Either way, Don is no longer here. So, I guess one of the big questions that was at, I don't know how much Chico we want to do here. We haven't talked about the first overall pick really other than you coming on for 20 minutes. But how much of that is a worry for you in terms of Chica and relationships with other general managers?

It's not nothing. But you don't want to overplay it as well. All right. Everybody's got a job to do. There's 31 other general managers. And if you're not thinking about your own team first, like, I don't know how many teams are in a position to go, you know what?

Yeah, you could have something that could help me, but I don't like you, so I'm going to go shopping elsewhere. And if that has ever happened. I don't think, yeah. That's a failing. Like if Craig Conroy really wouldn't trade with Brad Tree Living the last few years because Calgary didn't want to deal with them,

I mean, that's, what are you doing? That's, you're hurting your own hockey club, particularly if you see how some of the trades played out from Tree's end, could have helped Calgary at time. So you're right. I'm of the same mind that it's like, who's going to not trade with him if he can give them something better? Yeah.

That said, I do think there's extra caution that no one wants to get burned in front of all of Toronto in the media market and particularly with Chica and his reputation. And at the end of Kyle Dubas's thing here, guys were like claiming guys off waivers for a little while. Remember the like the waiver thing? Like you just don't want that sort of thing to be happening.

Now the part where I think is not nothing, is just how does that play into that whole scope of being a Toronto Maple Leaf? And are you now looking from afar, and I'll use radish as an example, a pending UFA? And it just seemed not too long ago, you'd instantly go, Toronto boy, it's coming home. Yeah, that's done.

We've got the, we've got the, The huge advantage. We got the hometown and everybody knows how special it is to be a Toronto Maple Leaf. Not getting that feeling right now. Well, isn't that the Matt's area? Like, isn't Matt's job as the front office dude to be to keep that alive? Yeah, but it's, you're not doing it in two weeks and you're not doing it in two months. Is it gone?

Prior to them getting hired, was it gone? I think I think prior to it everybody was watching all season long what's going on in Toronto and all the noise around it and it's been well documented I don't think it's helped the Toronto make beliefs that we've heard now from Paul Maurice we've heard from Brad Marchand we've heard from Nate McKinnon.

We've heard from John Tortorella most recently about all this noise and supposedly difficulty playing in Toronto and dealing with all the crap. I don't think that's helping. You know, I'm kind of two minds of that too. Like to me, it's the old no press is bad press sort of thing. Everyone's talking about Toronto

because it's the most important place in the NHL. And whether you think the state of the brand is at its peak, which I agree with you that it's not, I still think everyone's talking about it. What's the saying they don't boo nobody's? Like I think the fact that if you want to be a part of the place, I still think that all the attention just elevates it. I do think, you know, this is not something I love to admit,

but I do think that the brand has taken a bit of a, not the brand, but just where they're at. with the franchise right now. Well, they're not great. That's what I mean. And, like, we've talked to put it at nauseam on the show that it's usually the biggest names knocking down the door to be to run this thing.

And the way that this went, the search, like, it wasn't necessarily the biggest name outside of Matt Sundeen who comes in with a kind of an unclear role and a guy that's been out for six years. So I think there's something to it. It's their job. I think it's their job to prove that it can be back. I think, I think, yeah, outside of bringing in a Matt Sundeen,

like it would feel a lot worse if it wasn't Matt's part of this. Totally. Yes. And you got to recruit. You got to get guys to lift their no move claws to want to come here. And right now, if you're raddish or anyone else, you're going to do your homework. You're going to talk to guys. You're going to listen to what is everybody always talking about Toronto being the hardest place

and they ride their guys or they run them out of town? you're going to go and do your due diligence. Go ahead. Go ahead. Tell you what hurts them more with this sort of stuff to me is the way Matthews is handling, I'm not sure if I want to be around or not, which is, you know, I know we're going to get into. Well, he's going exactly through the same thing

Mitch Marner went through. Well, hold on. Let me finish my point. You clearly want to take that in a different direction. No, no. Take it in your direction first. You know, like if you're Darren Radish, you're looking at the lease and being like, going to be good? Like, I want to go somewhere to compete.

And that involves having Austin Matthews there. Like are, am I going to sign? And then Matthew says he wants out. And I'm going, you're right. So then all of a sudden, it hurts the team's chances of getting the good players before you had the chance to get the good players. 100%. So think about radish. Okay. Here I am.

I've kind of struggled for 10 years as a pro. Whatever the number. He's 30. 30 years old. I have a career year. right? What did I end up with? Like 20 goals, 60, 70 points. And I look around the room and I'm like,

I'm getting dishes all day long from Kutra of one of the best players on the planet. And like, what am I going up there to? To your point, who's going to be there? And if I don't, if I sign this six or seven million dollar contract, whatever. And I'm now back to a little bit of the old radish. but I'm getting killed up there. I'm getting annihilated. You know that.

You know that. Totally. And that's what he needs to now think about and start piecing all together the pros and cons of do I want to sign with the Toronto Maple Leafs? For sure. So if you're Matthews and you genuinely want to be in Toronto and you just want it to be better,

you want to make sure you get good guys. You've already undercut the process. Because there's no certainty for guys coming up here that you're going to be here. Now you could say that if you're trading Matthews, you're going to get a bunch of assets for him anyway, and those guys could have that. That's not helping Radish.

No, it's not helping Darren Radish. It ain't helping Willie. It ain't helping Morgan Riley. And that's, to my earlier point on why it's not nothing. Because you're not sure right now. There's not enough time for Matt's and John Chica. And the first overall pick, it makes a lot of people feel good about

having something to hang their hat on. But I assure you, Austin Matthews doesn't care. No, that's absolutely not true. Doesn't care about the first rounder. Doesn't care that they have a good player coming? It's not going to help him in the next two years. The first overall pick won't help him in the next two years.

Not to win a Stanley Cup. Not to win a Stanley Cup. It's not. It's, hey, you may strike lightning and get Celebrini in a year, but probably not. But what team is he going to go to that has $13 million in cab space or whatever is just going to go there and he's going to have a great chance to win the Stanley Cup? Where is he going to go?

Florida. San Jose. Utah. And they're going to win the Stanley Cup. There's no guarantees. There's no guarantees. That's what I'm getting at. But you want to pick a team on that's trending up.

Sure. And that's where he wants to be. But that's where first round, first overall pick. helps you trend up. Yeah, and then next year there isn't one, and then the year after there isn't one. I know, they don't have their own,

but yeah, they have full complement of draft picks the next two years. So I think it, you know, I think all of this is BS if he just wants out. I think there are lots of ways to say, here's why I want out,

here's why I want out, where he just wants out. Where he's just like, I'm tired of the heat and I don't think we got a great shot here. It's kind of toxic. I just want out, which is I think probably

the most likely answer. And that puts him right into that next man up on that whole Mitch Marner kind of I got an out now. I have an out. Why does some guys say they love it and some guys don't? Like what's the like...

What do you mean? Love it. I mean the market. I would argue that Morgan Riley has taken it on the chin versus just as bad as any of them. And all he ever says is he wants to be here. Matthew Nyes says he loves it here. Like what's the difference? Do you want to say out loud what it is? I don't know.

Isn't it that Morgan Riley's not a prima don't know? I don't know. He's more likable? I don't know. Well, no, but he, I mean, he's been taking it on the chin the worst for a calendar year and a half. Like, he's been the number one whipping boy, and he still won't say he does it he wants to leave. Like, sure, there's little reports trickling out now that maybe be open to it, blah, blah, blah.

But every time he gets in front of the media, he's like, I love it here, I want to work here, I want to make it work here. Because it is ultimately. People do say other things. The captain went in front of the media and said, I can't predict the future. People do say other stuff. In fact, the captain says stuff. Fair.

So. But it is a great place to play. It is. Is it? You're sitting over there saying that it's not. But losing sucks. Yeah, losing sucks. And then sometimes when you're underperforming

and you have a lot of money invested in you and you don't perform, you're going to hear it. But I think this is, it all comes back to the same thing. You said, oh, I think the brand is down a few weeks. win the brand is strong. That keeps everybody going. You win, everything gets better. People want to be there, they want to stay there.

But, but. Brand looks great. Connor, Connor and Austin at 30, they're running out of time. And it's like a gamble. It's like you, you've been hedging your bet on it was going to turn. It's going to turn.

And if you miss that window, you are nothing but Marcel Dion at the end of your career. Yeah. And I do think, yeah. Talented individual. If you went to the best sports better in the world, I don't know who that would be today. With all the data in the world and said, you know, pick who has the best chance to win the Stanley Cup next year. It's hard.

It's hard. So these guys to think they're going to go catch the San Jose with zero defensemen. But it's just, it's a reset. It gets you in a new frame of mind. There's so many other things. And let's just use Mitch Marner as an example. example, okay? He's laughing right now.

He's just giggling and it's not great that Mitch Martin's doing great for the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's not. It kind of feeds into everything that he believed in that, you know, this is, I can't have fun here. I don't enjoy myself here, right? And Morgan may enjoy himself. Morgan May, off the ice, he gets left alone. No one hounds him. No one's visiting his house throwing golf balls.

So it's a different feel for him. But for Mitch, it was a disaster being here. And I don't know where Austin is today on it. You know, I think the joke I made about Morgan Riley is relevant. And I think that it does probably take a thicker-skinned individual. I think that's reasonable. But I think it's that comes with its own rewards. You know, and a lot of people have come here for the chance to be immortalized to be, you know,

we got a press conference and they got Dougie, Wendell, all those boys there. I know. They went to the conference final. But Mitch will never have that. He won't. Morgan, if he leaves tomorrow. And those guys are on the hook for that.

That's their own responsibility. And Austin will be pulled into that too. Certainly, yeah. They will not feel that. Unless they can get to a conference final in the next two years, which I think people would gladly take at this point. Of course.

But I think Austin's now debating all of that. Yeah. And he watches Mitch Marner. Mitch Martin has a smile on his face. He goes to work. Nobody bugs them. Three reporters at the end of it goes back and golfs. I don't know.

It's a casino with his family. I don't know. Are you just finding out about other places in the league? Like, this has always been a thing, right? That's why Florida's had success the last few years. There are appealing places if you want to go golf and stay out of the spotlight. That's a thing. But I think it's depressing if the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs prioritizes that.

And it says something about the type of players you are if that's your priority he's got two years left on his deal and he he can do that but the nice thing he has too is that he would leave here leaving the leafs with something that's the matthew could chuck thing right where you say i'm not going to be here recoup some guys people are less mad about it and he can leave without the hatred this one will have a bitter feel too it would be bitter too but it wouldn't be like Mitch if he yeah listen i i i want to sit here and and fight you on Mitch Martyr being great, but Mitch Martyr's been great.

And it's just, it's really painful for all Leaf fans. I know it's painful because everybody just, they can't stop talking about it. The double standards of the Mitch conversation is nausea. What is there not, like, why is this happening? Why are people, like, I was listening to. People love the dunk on Toronto. Like, every single guy, like, I mean, on ESPN,

they must have said Toronto 100 times during that game. It's the playoffs. Like, what, you know, just... Because of the perception that... Sure. That everybody ran him out of town. Yeah. I think the perception, Mitch doing well there is extremely validating for Toronto to me.

It's like he couldn't handle being the guy and the pressure. That's a load of crap. Well, and then you go there. That is a load of crap. Well, then how about this? How about you're going and shooting on different goalies with worst defensive teams? Yeah. And it just didn't line up great here.

You know, like the timing was bad and it was unjust, but whatever the case is. comparing like they're all going like it's an easier path now for Mitch and there's no pressure it's like it's all garbage talk you don't so hold on pressure matters pressure matters what you put on yourself pressure is not what does what people put on you it's what you put on yourself the last 10 minutes of this conversation was about the pressure here and how no one wants it and how he's laughing because there's only three reporters so pressure does matter and then so he's there and it's uh Utah and But it had nothing to do with the performance. It's not the performance.

It's just, it's the joy of not having to deal with Sammy plug in his nose. You know, that sort of stuff. That's the pressure. That's the pressure. It's not pressure. It's just a pain in the ass. It's not pressure. It's not pressure.

Okay? And it's not that there's, it's an, it's an, it's. No, the pressure is what you put on yourself. That's all, that's all it is. Okay. They went, they had a big run where they played the best teams in the NHL for like, what, four years. Tampa, Florida, Boston, and they didn't get the Flyers, which was a joke series with Carolina, right? Totally.

So I agree with all of that. It's not that they just buckled under pressure. They played very good teams at one. on to win cups. They all went to the finals. You know, now it's like the easiest, he's having the easiest time. And I watch Jack Eichol,

can't score on the power play. He's got a power play goal all year. It's like, he's playing in an easier conference. Like everybody's saying, Mitch is now. How come he can't score goals? It's like,

I mean, it's, it's just, it's not, pressure is just what you put up on yourself. That's it. And Mitch had no problem putting pressure on himself. But he had problems with the pressure here. Everybody, everybody didn't perform when they needed to put points up.

They lost for many reasons. But is he still the same player he was in Toronto in Vegas? For sure he is. And I have no, there's no doubt that drawing those teams is different, though, because you're making the point that it is different, right? That they were playing the best teams here. And so playing Anaheim, who is one of the lesser-deaf, defensive teams in the NHL.

Neither Utah or Anaheim would have made the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. One thing for years here is Mitch's shooting distance was always, went farther and farther back from the net as the playoffs went on, and because you're playing good defensive teams and it's harder. He scored goals the other night right in the crease, you know? Like, that's great that he's getting there. And I find it validating for what happened here that it was, they played good teams a lot.

It was kind of, I'm pissed off watching it, quite frankly. As a Leaf fan, like, Where was that? Yeah. Like I would have liked to see his first career playoff. It was there. It just. No, it wasn't.

Kipper, it wasn't. The production wasn't there. The moments weren't there. There were no moments. And I watched this where he again goes to Vegas and I have to listen. I mean, I am a punching bag because people find me accessible. So I got to eat it because he could never get it done here. He could never get it done here.

I have to read my mentions every day, every single day. You idiot, you idiot. You idiot. Your fault, your fault. Because he couldn't shoot it in the net here. That's what I have to deal with every single day. And Austin couldn't shoot it in the net. And really. But they didn't leave, Kip.

They didn't turn down the biggest contract in the history of the Leafs to stay. They didn't leave. He did. He made the decision. And he made the right decision. Of course he did. Of course he did. Of course he did.

Because he was afraid of the spotlight here. He always was. He never took accountability. Yes, it was. Yes, it was, man. It's not the guy, Sam. Yes, it was the guy. He won a Memorial Cup.

Yeah, great. He went and he... So did Taylor Hall. He went back to back. And he performed at the Olympics. He performed at Four Nations. Those were big moments, Sam. Yeah, I understand that.

And now he was performing again. It just didn't materialize in Toronto for all of them. In the most important games that the most people were watching at the biggest times, it was bagels, Kipp. It was baggles, man. For all of them, Sam. I understand, but why does it expose or excuse him? It doesn't excuse him.

Well, you are excusing him. You're saying it's all them. I'm saying it's just, it's a load of crap that people are finding reasons why he was great here, not here. He was great here. Yeah, great until it was the biggest games and it was baggles, bagels. And I'm not going to get like everybody, he's awesome. And Lee fans now after, now the, by the way, Habs on their way to the conference final, Freddie Anderson best goal in the playoffs.

And now the reality is like, we are staring down the barrel of a Mitch Martin Kahn-Smith. That is a real conversation. Like, if they didn't get the first overall pick, I'm not showing up today. I don't know, man. Like, I just, it sucks for Leaf fans. It's just another thing that they have to eat.

I don't think it's helping with that narrative for Leafs. That's all. Well, it's just, the vision is there's no pressure for these guys here. So whoever wants to come here, we can convince him that it's not actually pressure unless it's self-applied. Unless you, you know, don't play in the biggest moments,

as Sammy said, and then we're going to get you. Well, why should we not want that? Why, as a fan, at the most important times, should I not want the second highest-paid guy of the team to have big moments for the team? Yeah. What's his biggest leaf moment? I got nothing.

Blocking the shot from the Bruins? Like, I don't know, man. I didn't want to come in here to scream about Mitch Martin. There's no big moment. in the playoffs. Tavares' goal that won the one round. That was it.

Not Austin, not Willie, not Mitch. There's just not big moments for them. They all stunk. They all stunk. All them stunk. And now we just,

maybe McKenna won't stink. Sure, hope not. Well, that was fun. All right. Welcome back, buddy. We're back. We're good.

Take a break. Break it up. What do you want to talk about? after the break. Well. More McKenna? No. No.

The coach. Okay. Sounds good. All right. Plenty more. Leaf Hour edition on the real Kipperman Bourne. Be back. Diving deep into Leif's, Raptors, J's, and NFL.

The Jadie Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the program. Nickyiparos, Justin Boren, semi. No fan of Mitch Marner. Mickey. Oh, we're back. Missed you last week, bud.

So you really think he can win the Kahn-Smith? We're not even out of the second round. I'm just like it's, you know, it's hurricane season here. I'm getting the windows boarded up. I'm getting the sandbags ready. You never know. Mentally trying to prepare yourself. Well, like, I think there's a pretty good chance they're going to beat the ducks.

I know it's 2-2 now, but I think they're the veteran team. You'd think they'd come out on top. Yeah, they're loaded. And then I guess the wilder avalanche are a totally different animal, but it's the playoffs. I don't know. If he goes to the final, he leaves the team. Can you just thank Mitch Marner for leaving town and giving you two first rounders,

including the first pick overall? He gave that. That was a gift to you. Well, no, I won't thank him for that. I think I'll thank Brad is living. There's no chance if he stays. They get first overall pick. Well, here's the thing.

Bradson. You're not wrong that in the, like, alternate timelines, he gifts. The leaves are worse off. Sammy. He stayed. I will say. I actually want to thank Brad Trillivin made an unbelievable trade.

Brandon Carlo and McKenna for mitten. A bang or trade. It's a great trade. Way to go, Brad. Now, Trillivings back, baby. I don't know if we did this while you were still here or not. I don't think so. But like, in our little trust tree here, it's just the three of us in the studio.

Everyone else. Mute. Please, mute. Like, there's almost no doubt that they're better off for the next X years. They do a Matthews deal soon. which brings me back to my original point rebuilds pick you you don't pick them everybody's like retool to rebuild it's like no

it'll sort itself out and it will let you know but everyone is saying when I say that that you don't have your own picks for the next two years you can't be bad and that is very true there's no point in losing games it doesn't help you however I think if you try to cluster a group of young stars at the same time it's long term going to be the best thing for you.

Think about now. Line up some timeline. Sorry, can I just say one more thing while it's on my mind? It's better that you do it before the draft and the deadline so you can start that process sooner. Rather than wait until you're past those things, then do it later. It's like a Band-Aid thing. I don't like your timing, though.

I don't like, if Austin says tomorrow I want out, I, you don't want to race into something and then look back and go it may take it may take a few months to trade Austin I just feel like how many places you think he'd go one maybe

you really think San Jose I don't know I don't know I'm just telling you he's got he's not worried about Michael Misa around here he's got the he's got he's got the ability to Pick one is my point. So maybe you need a two or three. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think you let that happen.

Say we're going to need a few or you're just not going to get traded. Like, there's no world where Austin gets to kind of hang out here and just hold his hat while we find him a trade. He's got two years though. I know. You know. And Kip, they messed up with the Willie Nealander negotiations years ago. We all agree that like, Doebus should have dug in on that one, showed everyone else that I'm not going to break, that this is, you know, I feel like this is important that they don't just go,

oh, you want out, let's do Owen Tippett in a second. You know, like I think you kind of have to hear say, sorry, until we find something worthwhile, we can't do this. Utah? But I'd like, if I'm every other team out there, I offer something worthwhile to get them. Utah, L.A. San Jose.

San Jose. Philly? Philly. I like Utah. Chicago? He won't go to Chicago. No? No.

Can't win there. So four? You got another, you go to say another one. Dallas. Dallas. What do they got, though? Thomas Harley. Like in terms of what coming back, what would that would appeal to the Leafs?

I just seen those other teams. Nobody's breaking up like their best core guy to trade for Austin. It has to be youth, the young youth. It has to be their 21, 22 year olds at the most. Yeah, like I'm most into Utah's. Yes. Beginla, Disney. No one has ever said that word but me.

And now if you... If you put three or four of those guys around McKenna or Chase Reed or... Right. One of them. Like you got the start of something with Nyes, with Cowan. But you got to suck up.

You're going to be kind of bad for three or four years. What do you think... I don't know about that. Any indication on what they're going to do with the first pick-kip? we talked about it a week ago None. None. None right now. Would your inclination be they just take McKenna? What would you do if you're the least?

I'd find two or three grade A prospects and maybe move down. Yeah, I'm not into that. You just tell me why. McKenna is, for me, going to need two or three years to be a player. I think he might be a little tough next year for him.

I think just physically he won't be able to kind of hang in there. Yeah, I think next year he's like a 50-point guy sort of thing as he gets it sorted. Listen, there's no doubt that I'm not informed enough on all these kids to have a very strong opinion, but from what I read and know and people I talk to. The suite could play. heavier. Yeah. Next year.

But why are you drafting? Why are you drafting first overall for next year? I'm just using it as a comparison. That's what I mean. But like, if you're taking McKenna, I don't think you're like, oh, we need him to be great next year. You're hoping his career is...

It's really good. And then he turns out to be a great player as opposed to being like, we need him to be good next year. I don't know. I think Stenberg's going to be a top six centerman. Okay. Okay.

Right? And the other one's a winger, Sam. He's a winger. He's a winger. He can't play center. Well, Bukes thinks that he could play, but he does play wing. Yeah. He thinks that he could play center, I think, was how he put it.

Malhotra's the top sort of center prospect. Yeah. Maybe you moved down to take him. It just feel like in this league, you just got to have these elite guys. You figure it all out, but you can't put the puck in the net. They did elite for 10 years, right? Yeah, and you just, you just said yourself. And how to look without elite.

Did you enjoy it with less elite? No. I'll tell you. It was fun at times during the regular season. For off the ice, it was a lot of fun. You just have to have these guys. You need one of the guys that you can't trade for, can't get. If McKenna is going to be a 130-point guy at some point in his career or something,

the idea of bypassing him because you weren't sure that the first year he was going to be physically ready. There's just so much risk in passing on him. So much risk. Rubie? Yeah. So what, a couple weeks ago, I said,

I kind of threw out, there's a chance that Ruby could stick around. And might have even been longer than that. Three weeks. Yeah. A month. Yeah.

And you gave me a look like I've seldom seen. Like maybe about like a martyr conversation. Like that sort of. Not can lie. But a lot of people are coming to the conclusion. He ain't going anywhere. So you are definitive on this. I'm not definitive on it.

Well, you just said he ain't going anywhere. I said it's looking like he ain't going anywhere. Just got to make sure here. You're telling me now they haven't met, they haven't talked. That's still coming. I know there's a few reports. I think they maybe met this weekend potentially. I don't know.

All these clandestine meetings, I don't know. I think they have some idea long before the past few days. I got to believe. I got to believe. staying or not. Do you think the opinion of Matthews and Elander, the guys they claim to want to keep, has input, has influence on that decision? It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Because I don't think they've talked to those guys in any formal sense yet, have they? Matthews anyway. I'm sure they've talked to him, obviously. You never go to those guys and giving them the impression of... Your opinion will sway this? Yes. That your voice matters here or you're going to sway me or... or be a deciding factor.

You never want to go there. What you want to do is that you want to at least have some idea on, hey, Austin, we may be bringing Craig back next year as a coach. And in a head he's going to, is there, is there, is there any, you know, is that going to cause a problem for you? Is there any issues there that we should know about? Yeah. And that's when the guy goes.

Nope. Or yep. So your John Chica and your job has been to present the information. This is the why he was hired. Data centric want to be able to explain why you're making the decisions you're making. I can play Keith Pelly here or the board or whoever. Go ahead and explain to me your decision to move forward with the coach. What's going on? I drop my phone.

I think when I was standing up. It's going crazy on that. Special services. Special services. So you want me to convince you why I want to keep Craig Brewby. Yeah, explain to me using evidence. Because I don't want to hire a new coach right away. I don't.

I don't want to. Why is that? Because this team's not ready now for my guy. I'll buy time with Brad Tree Living's guy. So you're telling me that you need a couple years to. stock file before you're ready to turn on the try to win. If it, if it, this is the way it works. If it goes sour quickly, I'm blaming him.

Yes. And I'm going to blame the guy that hired him before that. And then I go and get my fresh guy. But I don't want to get my fresh guy in right away. Essentially, you enter the GM job with two bulletproof vests. You get to choose when you take them off. And you don't want to take the first one off in the first month. Correct.

Okay. You've convinced me as a person, not as your boss. doesn't see, I want the guy who's going to help us win and get better. I don't know, I'm going to tell everybody he's a great coach, he's a Stanley Cup champion, you don't want to get rid of him, we just didn't have the right guys around him. Okay. What happens when I'd be like? And by chance, if he gets off to a good start and it turns, then I look like a genius.

What if I bring in Sam Mitchell and I'm like, zero, zero, zero, when I'm showing their stats from last year. What happens then? Yeah. Last place. The data set. Where did they finish again? Yeah, okay.

Dead last? Yeah, we need better guys. It's crazy. We need better players. Yeah. So you are proposing you turn him into Charlie Montoyo, the Jay's manager who is here while they sort of acquired players. Then when they're ready to win. I'm not suggesting that he fibs on, you know, his experiences in the military.

Isn't that what happened? Isn't that what you did? No. Didn't Charlie do that? Honestly, I don't know if that's true, but it would be a remarkable coincidence if we tied you. Somebody. If this thing came together with you and Charlie Montoyo at the end of the hour. I'm not going to throw, I don't know.

I think he was like most well known for. Belved. Playing on the bongos. Who am I thinking of? There was a general manager that kind of got maybe caught in a little bit of an exaggeration. I don't know who the hell you're talking about. I kind of vaguely do, but I can't pin it on. But I've been hitting that like several times over my career.

Between the two of us, we have a full brain. All right. I just think you don't want to race into something quickly and give the impression that my new guy that I just hired is going to make this all better right away. And if it doesn't, then the only one that can get away with it right now is Sullivan in New York. He had a horrible year. The team's no good. They need major changes there. and not even a guy with his reputation as Stanley Cup champion

and one of the highest paid coaches in the league is going to change that. So why do I want to race away from a guy that I still owe maybe $6 million to as well? I'll tell you why. Because you're supposed to be trying to win. And that guy, the information, all the data, all the evidence we have in the last two years, says that he does not help us win. And so I find it as an observer, I find it offensive.

that you're going to sit here and BS me about why you're keeping a guy when the real reason is for my own job security and maybe because we're not going to try to win. But you then are going to stand up there as the GM and go, we are trying to win, we think he's the right guy, when all of us kind of know that's not why. And that bugs me. And that's why I'm like maybe not awesome.

I agree with you. I'm not totally agree with what he said. It's the most important thing is it buys time. And he can't, I'm not saying it's, you're still going to get those stats. You're probably right. You may still, those underlying numbers may look the same as they were when you finished it. But there's also a chance they may not. There may also be a chance that you sign a free agent, you move a couple of guys in,

Ruby gets more of a look that he's comfortable with. I don't know, Austin comes back and he looks like a 50 goal score. Willie's on fire. and he's not as dumb as you thought he was at the end of the season. I don't even think he is. It just feels like they stopped playing for him. Like, you just think that they're going to just all of a sudden look way better under him with different people. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to stereotype what John Chica likes in a hockey team.

But like, do those two guys picture you as, to you as guys that are really going to have a similar vision in terms of what a hockey team is? No, I just worry that it's. It's going to be November or December when they pulled the trigger, and now it's too late to salvage the season. You're going to build a team in the... Isn't that what they kind of did last season? Kind of, yeah. And then also, if you have Gavin McKenna in,

you know, I'd like him to get right from the start, sort of a confident, good set of professional ideals and in losing environments, tough. Kipper, by the way, it was Tim Johnson, former Blue Jays manager, was fired in March 1999, after admitting he lied about surgery. serving in combat during the Vietnam War to motivate players.

Thank you. I got the name wrong. That's messed up, man. I got a little bit of the story right. Yeah. There's there you go. Okay, one's a Bongo player and the other one.

I was a Blue Jays fan. I don't remember that at all. Zero recollection of that. I get the weirdest memory. I truly, though, I can see how the brain cells touched right after you stood up and took applause for your time in the military.

This guy's name would come up. Me and Tim Johnson. Thanks. Thank you to Shane Adams, who tweeted me at. Thank you. Thank you. So I don't think they appear to be in any hurry. Okay.

And honestly, you might have wanted to fire him by now. Yeah. Right? If it was going to happen. If it was going to happen. You might have wanted to meet him. Like, I don't know what you've been doing. I think they met him.

I think they had a thing this weekend. No, I mean, like right away, like within days of being hired. You know, you don't just, oh, we'll get to you. Well, I thought maybe when they did it in a week. When they did the Trillivving thing, I sat here and said they should have just done both at that point, right? Like it was just kind of be, and then you'd go into this with a clean slate. But who knows? Maybe they would have got a couple extra wins.

Like all the stuff that happened in this season, you just have to. Happened for a reason. Happened for a reason. And they'll just never forget that Dallas Stars game. One of the greatest loss of a movie. An insane loss. Ben Danford, joining the Toronto Marley's. for a playoff push.

Toronto Marleys, beat the LaValle Rockette, advanced to the North Division final. Let's go. There you go, Marley's. And Matthew Nyes and William Leelander in attendance at a Marley's game recently. They're really making the rounds. Love it.

Niza had a big Selly at the Raptors game. What do you mean? You don't love it. Nyes is a full-on Torontoian now. Honorary Raptor. Yeah. What a celebration. I'm watching the Philadelphia Flyers.

The day after they get eliminated, forced rate. Like partying with the Philadelphia Phillies. I'm like, maybe you just want to just sit in a quiet room amongst yourselves and just talk about. You can't go back and play better. It's over. Who cares what you do after that? I think we just live in a world where there's too many cameras. Yeah.

These guys, I mean, oh, I'm sure guys never went out and partied at 85 after they got swept. People just have access to an HD phone picture in their phone. here. My dad has a story about like policemen driving them home the day after playoffs. Yeah, but they well, I don't know what years it was. A good point. Could have been winning years ago. But they were they were winners.

Yeah. They were winners. Listen, I like Matthew Nice. I would have preferred him to stay home and watch Tampa Bay and Montreal over chucking a beer at a Raptors game. That is

garbage. Absolutely. I'm sorry. That's just me. It's just me. He's watching an NHL game going, whoa, that's how you do it. Yes, yes. He went to a Marley's game.

That's how you play hard. That's how you win. That's how you, no interest in. This is definitely a generational divide here. Chuck a beer, right? Chug it, not chuck it. If he chucked it would be a problem.

But chugged. Chugged. Okay. I mean, I'm all right. This is a guy trying not. It's a new generation. Trying not to get traded out of Toronto. He's showing love for all.

All the local sports teams and it's... No, no, it's fine. That part's fine. American boy. The front row. Go, go, go, go, go, go. Yeah, okay. So Josh Allen is doing it.

Josh Allen doing it's fine. They lost in heartbreaking fashion. Every guy who gets on the jumbo tron chums. I'm not hearing this argument. This is insane. There's never been an athlete that has had a beer in their hand. That's just what you do, bud. Buddy, I'm a sore loser, man.

Oh, my God. That's... I'm a sore loser. You just sat in it. his stall till the next season came around. Come on. All right. My age really showed in this last segment. Something.

You guys straightened me out, though. All right. Gary Galley up next and Kirk Muller. Plenty more. Stick around.