Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Cut Ties with Kyle Dubas

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Gord Stellick and Sam McKee open with Brendan Shanahan's live press conference following the news that Kyle Dubas will not be brought back as general manager of the Maple Leafs. The guys react to the news, the press conference, and negotiations before discussing what lies ahead for the Leafs in their search for a new coach, Auston Matthews' approaching extension and the future of the core four.  Next up, Doug Maclean joins the show (59:53) to get his thoughts and reactions to Dubas’ leaving the Leafs’, the day that changed Shanahan’s decision and the privilege of being a GM in the NHL. Finally, the guys end of the show recapping some of the highlights and lowlights throughout Dubas’ tenure with the Leafs.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. 

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. In the event that you've been sleeping under a rock all afternoon, here it is, breaking news. Toronto Maple Leafs' Brendan Shanahan, President and Alternate Governor of the Toronto Maple Leafs, announced today that the club has decided to part ways with General Manager Kyle Dubas. Dubas' contract set to expire June 30th,

and he will not return as Toronto's general manager next season. Nick Kiprios, in for Justin Bourne, Gord Stelik, Derek Brandeo, David Sissboomba, and Sammy McKee for the next two hours, breaking it all down for you. We expect Brendan Shanahan to speak momentarily. The moment we get it, we will throw it over. Let's start with you, Gord. Well, like somebody in the organization said, going back and forth,

once you let the toothpaste out, you can't put it back in. And whatever, and we'll find out more, but obviously Kyle Dubas' remarks after the season about not sure if he was up for the job, all those other reasons, I don't know if they caught people by surprise or they caught people by surprise that he went public for it. They had to do something. They've got to get a lot of business to do, so we'll out what brendan shanahan has planned maybe something interim for right now but

he had to do something there's a lot of business it's got to start right now i anticipate that we'll get some detail to what transpired this week i don't expect him at all to kind of go through it uh and fluff his way through this thing. I do believe that the fan base, season ticket holders, they deserve some sort of explanation here. And I fully expect to hear that from Brendan. Well, I do as well. And you think about, you know, when Dave Nona's got to let go, it was a number of months before he hired Lou Lamorello.

So it's not like he rushes into things. I remember back then Brendan said, it's not a he rushes into things. I remember back then, Brendan said, it's not a job for everyone, and everyone's not for this job, right, for this job. So, I mean, that was kind of his way going at it. Lou Lamorello was a big surprise. The fact that Lou Lamorello got let go and Kyle took over when he did was also a big surprise.

So he's been hugely loyal to Kyle Dubas. And, yeah, so I know the Marley coach and assistant coaches were let go earlier today. I don't know if there's more other things that are going to be announced by Brendan, but this is the big one. I don't anticipate any news on Sheldon Keefe's future moving forward, other than perhaps reiterating that Sheldon is a guy that has served the team well and possibly reassess it in the next little while. We do know there's a new general manager coming.

Does it come within the organization? Does he go outside the organization? Would you want whoever that is to weigh in on Sheldon Keefe's future? Well, his future is a lot bleaker than it was earlier this morning, just about because he's been loyal. Hey, Sheldon will get another job. I mean, this is the shelf life for the average NHL coach. It's going to be a real strong management team with Brandon Pridham

and Jason Spezza there. I don't know if he'll announce that one of them will be the interim general manager, will be the general manager. Some people think Brendan, and it's not a bad idea. Should Brendan take over as the interim general manager? But to me, Kipper, that's something he's never wanted to do. Anytime that they're ready for Brendan Shanahan to speak, we will throw it to their first chance that we get.

Remember Babcock always says start on time? Remember that? Yeah. Can you not? The memory of Babcock always says start on time. Remember that? Yeah. Can you not? The memory of Mike Babcock, start on time. Maybe they'll wait around until 5 p.m. like they were doing at the media day earlier this week where they made everybody wait around all day.

I'm really curious to hear how much detail he wants to go on what happened Monday to Friday afternoon here. And again, we do know, and it's been well documented through Kyle, the way he articulated on Monday, that there was a family situation there, a ton of stress. But there is much more to that in this story here and i do believe that there was a contract extension offered and whether or not whether or not he said yes or no or he was looking for maybe a situation where he could add to it i don't know and i don't know how far

brendan will go into his contract situation but all indications gourd is that he had a fair contract offer on the table and for whatever reason the signature never made it well then the word was that whether he wanted more money but particularly more power spelled out and that's why he didn't sign it so then after that is that is that the pressure that which i don't i mean if you get the contract, you think that particular professional pressure is gone. Okay, let's go to Brendan Shanahan, president of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Welcome, everybody. We're just going to start with a brief opening statement and then following open statement. Please raise your hand for a microphone. Thank you, everybody. First off, I apologize for conducting this on a Friday at 3 o'clock in front of a long weekend. And before I get started on a bit of a timeline here and questions, I thought it was really

important to at this point say as well I want to thank Kyle Dubas for the nine years that he has given to this hockey organization and all the tremendous contributions that he has made to the Toronto Maple Leafs he's been a fantastic employee and a fantastic person the entire time timeline on the Kyle Dubas contract, I suppose you could go back to last offseason. I approached Kyle in his office at the Ford Performance Center and explained to him that he would be not receiving a contract offer prior to his final year of his contract. I tried to reassure him that it wasn't a reflection on his future with the club.

I reminded him that it was a situation I found myself in a few years prior as well, and that it was my hope and it was my intention that at the end of the year and after being judged for the full five years of his contract that we would be extending him and moving forward. Kyle took it very well. I thought he was a pro. He addressed that in his opening season statements that he was comfortable with that and I thought that he had done an excellent job.

I thought Kyle had a great offseason. We had some difficult choices to make. If you're judging him on the work he did last summer, some of the decisions of letting players go, of signing some players, I think it's a challenging job for any general manager, and I think Kyle did an excellent job. We came into the season very well organized, many options. I thought the team,

typical season of highs and lows, but had an excellent regular season. Going throughout the year, the way that the team was managed, I had no issue with that. As a matter of fact, I thought that, again, Kyle did an excellent job. The trade deadline, again, going back to his process and the way that our team does this here under his leadership, there's a lot of input, and I thought that he made some very good moves, and I thought he had prepared the team to the best of his ability. As any GM can do after the trade deadline, there's not as much for a GM to do. So it was important for me do after the trade deadline there's not as much for a GM to do so it's important for me shortly after the trade deadline around the middle of March

I approached Kyle in his office at Ford Performance Center and told him that I had seen enough in my mind that I had wanted him to be our general manager going forward but he should go home and take some time to think about it. And if he was comfortable with that idea, I would start talking to ownership about that. Kyle appreciated that. We had a good relationship the whole year. That day was nothing different.

He came back to me about a week later and said yes, that he was comfortable moving forward, and he gave me the name of his agent, or he said his agent would reach out to me, but that he didn't want this to be a distraction for him, and I respected his wishes that I wasn't going to discuss it with him any further at that point. So fast forward to the end of the season, getting through the end of the regular season, the point. So fast forward to the end of the season getting through the end of the regular

season the playoffs. I had many good conversations with Kyle's agent felt we were making progress. I wanted to be in a position so to a to respect Kyle's wishes and not discuss this with him as it was going along. But I knew his agent from time to time was giving him updates. That's really up to them. I don't know exactly what was going on there. But I felt those conversations, which were productive, had put me in a position that when the season ended, or even if it was between rounds, because at a certain point, I felt either if however round two ended even if we were moving on to round three that this was something that needed attention now and I felt that those conversations and the communications I got from Kyle had put me in a position where I could

come to him with something that was pretty much a finished deal that reflected what he wanted financially and what he wanted as a general manager what was important to him when the season did end unfortunately abruptly it was very important to me that I was ready to go early I expressed to Kyle that night that as disappointed as we all were I thought he had done a good good job. It's a tough time for the players. It's a tough time for management. It's a tough time for all of us. It's a tough time for Maple Leaf fans in those moments after a loss. But we had a day off on Saturday.

We communicated a little bit through text on Sunday. We had a team photo here. We went up to my office. I had another good conversation with Kyle I presented him with what I thought was a framework that reflected what his agent and I had talked to and a good finishing place in the effort to to get this done as soon as possible. And Kyle took it. He seemed fine, or he seemed pleased to receive that news so quickly.

We then talked about the hockey team for another couple of hours, and we went home. And we knew the next day we were having exit physicals and media. We talked a little bit about doing media. I had expressed to him that it was not my intention to talk to the media until I had something settled with him. I expressed that I thought it was maybe a good idea if he didn't either, but Kyle said he really wanted to talk to the media and I respected that.

He felt that his players were speaking, his coach was speaking, and that he should as well, and I respected that he uh he felt that he his players were speaking his coach was speaking and that he should as well and I respected his wishes so um the next day when you know and let me go back I would also say part of our conversation in my office was that this was hard on his family in fairness we talked about that how quite frankly it's it's, quite frankly, it's hard on all our families. It's a difficult thing. It's hard on the players, the parents. But it's the job we choose. It's the sport we choose.

We're very fortunate to be in it. But it does not come without a toll on the families. I completely acknowledge that. And we talked a little bit about that. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

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I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT. in my thinking at that moment, a dramatical shift in my thinking as I drove home that night that, as Kyle expressed, he might not want to be our GM, and I have to take that very seriously. As I had said to him the day before, I understood those feelings and the pressure and the pressure that players are under, the pressure that management, coaches, family members are under. But it was a very real possibility for me at that point that I would be needing to look somewhere else. And as part of my job, that is what I began to do while still hoping that Kyle and I could come to some sort of a resolution. What I would say then was in the next few days, I didn't get any more clarity.

Tuesday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Kyle and I did not meet privately. On Wednesday, we did meet privately, and we discussed this again for a long time. I had probably more questions than answers and I did not have clarity. It further made me feel that there's a strong possibility that rightfully anyone's right to do so, he might not want to be the general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. So my focus then again continued toward the path of what do we look like next year with a different general manager. to Thursday, the next day, Kyle had said that his agent was going to call me

and that he would reach out to me as well. I got a call in the afternoon from his agent and basically a new financial package was presented to me by the agent. The conversation was brief. I did not hear from Kyle throughout the day and I went home and just before dinner time I got an email from Kyle saying that he did want to be the general manager of the Maple Leafs. At that point I have to, if I'm being honest, I was, I had gotten to a different place about how I felt about the future of the Toronto Maple Leafs and what was best. somebody that you're close to and that you've been working with for nine years, even though I was presented with, well, a gap had risen within the contract status, but nevertheless, the email that I received from Kyle, I just felt differently, and I felt that the long-term

future of the Maple Leafs might have to change. And slept on that and woke up this morning, drove to Kyle's office at Ford Performance Center and informed him that we were not going to be renewing his contract and that's where we are here today. Obviously, there will be questions and I'm happy to do my best and answer the ones that I can. done with this is immediately to begin the pursuit of interviewing candidates for being the next general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. So Brendan, just to follow what you've said there do you think from your side of things that this broke down entirely over money no no i don't i don't i wouldn't characterize it as breaking down over money i i think like i said i think knowing and recognizing uh after the availability that, look, when a general manager is playing out the last year of his contract, there's always the possibility of a contingency that

you might need a new general manager. He might choose to go to another team. And I think that I felt I had gotten a little bit closer and spelt some indications that we were going to work this out i would say after the press conference on monday i was less sure and i and i thought there is a real possibility that he might not want to do this and that he might need to i think as he said take a step back at that point um I hadn't ruled Kyle Duvas out, but I certainly had to make sure that I was thinking of other options as well. Now, Brandon, you said at one point you realized the future of the Maple Leafs have to change in reference to moving on from Kyle. Does that mean you look for

a different kind of general manager, like a person with a different kind of vision for the team, or what kind of, what are you looking for in your next guy well it's what I would say is that I'm going to be open-minded to who that person can be I want to be open-minded to all candidates certainly having an experienced general manager would be an attractive quality. How much of this decision was yours alone versus getting input from the board and ownership on letting Kyle go? Well, I think in any organization, and ours is no different on decisions as big as this,

it is something that you communicate with your bosses, but this was ultimately my decision. They were supportive, but ultimately that is my job, and it is my job to make recommendations to them, and that was my recommendation and decision. Josh. Kyle, sorry, Kyle had, you said, you could have maybe signed him last summer.

What's the level of regret now that that didn't get done and having a lame duck general manager, for lack of a better term, for the whole year and what that strain might have also meant? I think it's more common than people realize. I think that players go through it, management goes through it, coaches go through it, and it's not ideal, certainly. But I thought that's why it was very important to be very communicative with Kyle throughout the year, try to be as supportive as I could throughout the year,

and also go to him as soon as I thought that it was fair to go to him after the trade deadline and say that if you're comfortable doing this and take your time to find out if you are, I want to start going to work on getting this done. So that was not something that would be on his mind going into the playoffs, that I felt he had put the team in a position to have success so it was important to me to not just wait and see what the result was but but to to be consistent not with just the support I try to give him on a

daily basis but also have something tangible presented to him in the form of a verbal commitment by me and then subsequent conversations with his agent that went well. Okay. So, Brady, just to be clear, on Monday then, when Kyle said to us they left the door open to not returning next season as Leafs GM, that was news to you more or less, that that could be a possibility? I think we had discussed that certainly

it was a concern not just for Kyle, but just we're speaking about Kyle specifically. I think we discussed the day before that it was a concern for him. I didn't expect that he was going to go out

and put that to the public, but nevertheless, it made it all more real and all more serious, certainly. It presented, certainly, lots of questions. I have no issue with Kyle's honesty, Kyle's emotions. I think Kyle is an honest person. Like I said, I've been in this game a long time. We have all had these experiences where we see,

whether it's as a player or in management, how this can impact your children at school or your family. So I want to be very empathetic and understanding and know and understand that that's a very real thing, not just in Toronto and not just in the sport of hockey, but really everywhere. I do think it's a massive privilege to be able to play or work in the National Hockey League, but that's not to underscore that it is difficult for all athletes in all cities and and management as well. Right and as you look for a new general manager are there any other personnel decisions that you're

gonna make between now and then or are you gonna let the new person handle that? Sorry I didn't hear that last part. Are there any personnel decisions you're gonna make between now and when you hire the new general manager or are you gonna leave that to the new person in terms of head coach? Yeah, no, I think that, you know, I have spoken with most of our staff. I've called several of our players and I have another call set up with more staff members after I'm done here. I think that some of those decisions have to be the responsibility of the new general manager. And I think in the meantime,

I'm going to lean heavily on Brandon Pridham, and we're going to get through this time. But timeline-wise, and I've had a great conversation with Wes Clark about the upcoming draft, and we've built something here that I think that is that, you know, there are a lot of people who are shocked and saddened today and that it would be a little strange

if it wasn't that way. But we also have a lot of people here that are coming back to work and doing their jobs and getting ready to do the things that they are paid to do. And that was encouraging. And as far as any sort of big major decisions, the biggest one is finding a general manager. And to me, there's an urgency to do that.

I don't think it needs to be rushed. I want to really say I'm not going to do it in a hastily way. I want to be very thoughtful and thorough, but I do think it is a priority and it needs to happen rather soon. We're only going to do three more. Lance, Mark, and Zyze. Brendan, many of us were in the same room, I think, nine years ago when you hired Kyle. What can you say about where it ended up and how disappointing is this to you on a personal level? You put your neck out for him a few times, went past other candidates and tried to stay with him.

You know, I've been in this, you know, when you're in a position where you have to have that conversation with people, on a personal level, it is difficult. You know their families. It is a difficult thing, but it is part of the job, it is part of the responsibility that you take on. And I don't see Kyle at all, or Kyle coming here as a failure in any way. Kyle was instrumental in where this organization is today. I've got to think about how do we get where we want to go in the future and how do we how what is what are the best ways for us to be better and what are new ideas and new thoughts but but from that time back in 2014 lands to now it's

a journey and and not just Kyle but other people who are along for parts of that journey if we finally get and we're determined to get to where we need to get to, those people will all have their fingerprints on that journey and all be, you know, be major contributors. And that's what makes me thankful, not just for Kyle, but for a lot of the people who have helped along the way. Brendan, in his comments on Monday, Kyle mentioned that if he had remained, he may have to adjust his plan. What was your takeaway from the way this season ended, and what do you see as being needed to help this group get over the hump moving forward? Well, I don't want to get ahead of that.

And, again, I want to speak to new candidates. I certainly have some thoughts and opinions, but I've always, I've always, the way that it's always worked here, whether you're president of the team or you're, you know, pro scouts, like we've, we've had a very sort of open atmosphere where people can state their opinions to the general manager and the general manager makes decisions. That's the way it has been. It's how I expect it to be going forward. We want to support the GM. The GM and the coach and the players, they're forward-facing the most. The most pressure is on them.

So I think that when it comes to that, certainly what I took from Kyle's comments were accurate and honest, which is without making any promises, we will look at everything in the organization and try to make decisions that will make us better. And that might be on a, on a, not on the timeline that everybody wants. It might not occur just this summer. It might occur during the season. It might occur on the next trade deadline, but you know, just being different doesn't solve something. And me removing Kyle from the position of general manager isn't the solution.

It's finding something that is a better fit that is a solution. And it's the same on the ice. And I think that's what Kyle was saying was, and I don't know how you argue with that, that if we find a way to make an improvement on the ice, then we have to explore that. That wasn't directed at any one player or any one position or at any job specifically. We are, every single year, looking to get better. And sometimes we're successful and sometimes we're not. But that is always the goal.

Last question, Zyce. You mentioned Brandon Pridham. Is he a candidate in your search here? And the other thing is, I mean, it's not just a draft. You've got contract issues coming up with Nylander, with Austin Matthews, and there's deadlines coming up. I mean, how difficult is it to spread around those things? Because those are things that can't wait, even if there is a, you know, a prolongated process to look for a new GM.

Yeah, and I think to answer your first question, I'm not ruling anybody out at this point. I think we'll have all those conversations. As I said, I've told you what some of the things that would be attractive to me, but I'm not ruling out any possibilities in a future general manager. And then, yeah, we have to get to work. And Brandon's a great example of a guy that has excellent relationships with agents and players and getting ready for the draft. So we have a staff in place.

We have a staff that certainly feels wounded today, as we all do and as we all should. But we also have a staff that is professional and ready to do the job and prepared to do the job. And hopefully we find a general manager as soon as possible and somebody that fits what we're looking for and can help the Toronto Maple Leafs get to the next level. Because as we saw this year, the goal wasn't just to get past the first round

and everything gets easier. You get past the first round and you lose a very closely fought series in the second round, and it's devastating, as it should be. And it's hard, and people are impacted and affected. But the reality is, it doesn't get easier in the third round. It doesn't get easier by going to the finals.

There's only one team that it's easy for at the end of the year and that's the winner. So we learned this year by successfully getting out of the first round that there is no nice summer or finish line just for having partial success. And quite frankly what we've learned here as a group, many of them for the first time, the second round doesn't make it feel better. And the news that's coming, if we are lucky enough to keep improving and keep getting better, is it only gets harder. The pressure only mounts. The ability to make decisions under pressure only gets harder as you get to the third round as you get to the fourth round your decisions are more impactful and have more of an impact on the fan base um as you get

deeper into the playoffs thanks everybody thank you everybody thanks oh just prior to going on a uh just prior to going to brendan chanahan i said leaf fans and season ticket holders need some sort of explanation on what the heck happened between monday and friday afternoon and we got it minute by minute my. We absolutely got a play by play. Joe Bowen couldn't do a better play by play than Brendan Shanahan did from September. My goodness to this moment here on what the heck happened. Nick Kiprios, Gord Stelick in for justin bourne sammy mckee all right who wants to go first well uh i'll do because one of us could go for half an hour and i won't do that i'm just saying the salient points are just go to this week you can talk about the off season and whatever and just that sounded like you know i think brendan's being sincere that they had a

framework of a deal in place he felt that they had discussed all those other issues along the way about you know the pressures that when kyle spoke publicly then all of a sudden it was strike one or and or maybe strike two in brendan shanahan's book when he saw it. The other thing is Brendan is also absorbing this on behalf of the owners, one of us who we're talking now, Rogers, Bell Globe Media, Larry Tannenbaum. No idea if one, two, or all three or zero of them all of a sudden had an opinion that they weighed in on about, I'm not liking what I saw today. The part that really is the killer is he's saying that it sounds like maybe 24, 48 hours later,

he was okay if Kyle is okay to come back. But it sounded like when Kyle's representative came back with new terms and conditions, a new demand, which first of all, the whole point was family reasons. So now if you're coming back and thinking you have leverage, and I'm not speaking for Kyle, I have no idea. All I'm saying is if that's the case, you screwed up royally. You did, if that is the case, because that is when...

How can it not be the case? Well, totally. I just say, and Brendan basically... I get it. And then a day later, Brendan does add, Kyle emailed, I'm ready to report for duty, sir. Sign the contract. I want to carry on being general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The old thing, a day late, a dollar short.

In this case, maybe three days late, Sammy. So the timeline was that they did the team photo thing on the Sunday. Monday, they had the presser. Shani's big time, blown away by that as he got to. Tuesday, nothing happened. Wednesday, they talked. They had a long meeting, I guess. Agent presents the counteroffer, you know, the email that he wants to be back.

And then this morning, gone. Was this a money thing? Oh, brendan made sure we knew that brendan made sure we knew that i felt like he was kind of trying to make it seem like it was the press conference more than it was the money part of it oh i i i think again i don't know which was strike one strike two strike three like i said to kippy or you guys earlier but brendan was just he just didn't want to say itan was just he just didn't want to say it was about money he just didn't he said everything except it wasn't yeah just about the money yeah and and which it ended up being and i also still think that brendan wasn't both feet in

like he understood there's an appetite for some kind of change out there by being loyal to everybody isn't really what everybody wanted to hear. So all of a sudden he gets a guy going a little south on him, one of the ones that he's been really loyal to, then it kind of, it probably, I say smarts a bit more, but kind of hits him a little bit more. I just don't understand Kyle from the moment he decided to go against Brendan's advice.

Don't go on Monday. Yeah, Brendan made that clear. Brendan said, I thought maybe you shouldn't speak. And he said, no, I'm going to. And it was for the thought and idea that I'm going to end it on the thought that I may not be coming back because of family reasons. That's what he left us with, the wife and the kids, which, again, if I'm the president and I put my neck out on you nine years ago,

nine years ago, when nobody else, not one team, would even look at you. He didn't know him. He cold called Kyle Dubas. He got the recommendation from David Branch and others. You didn't win a thing in the Sioux. You had no reputation. You were just a kid who probably said all the right things to Brendan. I got a new vision.

I got a new look. I got a new look. Take a chance on me. Plus analytics back then. And Brendan did. That's his new look. And nine years later, you want to go up on a Monday and surprise him with, I don't know where my heart is. I may not come back.

And then you play the family card. Yeah. Like, first of all, that alone is a slap in the face to a guy that took a chance on you nine years ago. Yeah. Brendan Shanahan should not find out at the same time Joe Schmoe at the Tim Hortons that you have doubts about coming back and you're concerned for your family why couldn't you have told Brendan that behind closed doors that is not for public yeah Brendan made that clear but he did it yeah well no but then when he comes back then Brendan's not is looking at it about the money thing saying okay was it hand in

hand that i'll i'll play this and again i don't want to question kyle or anyone's sincerity about those things but it looks more like i'm going to play the family pressure card but more money's going to take pressure off the family two days later so i will be your general manager but take a look at this new package we're presenting you with this agent okay who is this agent and who is the agent that no one will ever hire again yeah well it's like the worst advice ever i was at the agent or was it kyle going on his own but he overplayed his hand from the moment he stepped on the podium Monday. He had a deal. It was, in Brendan's term, what, a fair deal?

Not the deal maybe that you think you can hit the home run with, but you're 37 years old. You've got the ability for income for the next 25, 30 years. What are you thinking? Don't ask for more money. So it's like, you know, you're a GM in any situation here. You're, you know, whoever the general managers are or anything. And you go, I mean, everyone aspires. They try to be a part-time scout.

They try to be whatever. And as you mentioned, like, Brendan Shanahan took him from a different school till the main campus. No in between, no in between, right? You know, from, cause what happened was he, he asked around who's a bright young mind. And he, he, he cold called Kyle Dubas and they had a great seven hour conversation all those years ago. And that's where it all began and uh yeah so when someone says i don't want to be general manager of the toronto may police or the toronto raptors or the toronto blue jays are well okay then you're not my general manager and i'm you know and a lot of people and i i hesitated to say that last couple days because i wasn't sure

didn't know but all of a sudden to me that's game. Which, you know, and I almost feel bad for Kyle Dubas this morning that if, you know, if I have no idea how things played out, like the whole process, but man, that probably knocks the crap out of him if all of a sudden he said, yeah, hey, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to take that contract. But, you know, you can't undo what happened four days earlier and through the week. The man is out of work.

He's got no contract. He's got no income next year. And I've been there. It is no income. Like when you're kind of like, I mean, it's, it's not,

there's always an assumption, you know, like, Oh, you know, Hey, John, Jake is going to find something.

He really hasn't found anything, you know, like it's not, I mean, there was this perception out there and who knows where it came from, about the Pittsburgh Penguins that would hire him in a heartbeat. Okay, let's see. Now, I know that he said that if I'm not the general manager

of the Toronto Maple Leafs, I won't be running anywhere else. Let's see. And I don't know what that means. After June 30th, when this contract is over july august september let's let's see but there are no guarantees no guarantees now saying that saying that the amount of time he spent and experience and he's well respected like he's he's put up a little less respected gourd in, in my opinion, right now. Okay, let's go to Sunday night. Okay, let's say up till last Sunday. I'm just saying that.

So that doesn't all diminish. That doesn't all get extinguished, but it diminishes to your point. But all of a sudden you say, hey, sharp guy, sharp guy, whatever. Like talking experience, then wow. Wow, okay. Yeah, if we're ever talking to him, we got to, that's a head scratcher. We got to maybe not talk to him or we got to go over that point. You know, just that thing.

Got to get some splaining to do. You know, like in a different way, Jim Montgomery had some splaining to do to get a job back in coaching and, you know, seize the opportunity. I know different circumstances, but I'm just saying something like that. Sammy? circumstances but i'm just saying something like that sammy oh if i can just play the you know shanahan's now had the last word obviously and he went out there and he said all that stuff and he spoke so concisely and went through the timeline and i'm not you never would accuse him of you know

spinning a narrative here because all that stuff seems so true and everything he said there. But now it's just the court of public opinion has completely made up its mind immediately that this is all Dubas' mistake. And it's just, you know, like that was a masterclass in spinning a narrative because I think whatever I'm looking at the YouTube chat, I'm looking on Twitter, I'm getting texts from my friends. I'm looking at everything. The response to this is that Dubas screwed up royally. And I think that there's some truth to that. And I think that's probably there's some, that case can be made.

And, you know, it's just very, that was an incredible job by Kyle, by Shanahan of spinning the narrative in the favor of him and the board. Don't you think? How can anybody look at anything otherwise? No, I. On Monday, you hang your wife and kids out there, okay?

Nobody asked them about them. You volunteered that. By the middle of the week, you're saying they're okay, but here's a new package with new numbers that will make me and my wife and kids feel a lot better. What are we supposed to think? I know. Okay.

That's the kicker. That's the kicker. You use them as pawns. So 48 hours later Wednesday, he'd come back and said, okay, the enormity of the weekend, all that, I'm ready to sign the deal that we agreed to and that brendan and others thought we had on monday then probably then at that thing okay can give some understanding just needed some breathing room and that but you're you know

just talk about overplaying your hand i mentioned it like i don't know if you threw out i'm not going to go other places as a negotiation tactic now too. I don't know. He'll have no choice but to go somewhere else now. And who is the someone else that has just watched this unfold in front of the whole hockey world that would go, hey, Kyle, come on, let's negotiate. Can I trust you, what you're telling me well something else there there's no you're not

allowed to tamper big time but things are always out there people are always aware of what maybe could transpire is there something through a third party that the understanding is there's there's and i have no idea just that that there's x y and z in the offing that that gets his clouds his mind that okay well i gotta get i gotta get more here because hypothetically or i feel confident and what i'm just saying for argument's sake say it's allegedly pittsburgh or whatever i don't know like just something. Because otherwise, it almost sounds like, you know, that. Like, what are you negotiating against if all you want to stay is with the Toronto Maple Leafs, which is what you expressed on Monday?

Then, okay, then work at getting the deal done here, if this is the only place you're interested in. At the end of the day, you're 37 years old, like I said. You've got 30 years ahead of you. He's like you, one of the youngest guys ever to come in you were you it's willie wonka man you got the golden ticket with when you were 28 years old and now at 37 you're gonna play hardball with a multi-billion dollar company, MLSE, for what? An extra mil? An extra two mil? You're like a player, okay?

It's all upside. Like, you got your whole life to earn income. So you end up with 90 million and not 100, Kyle. You got the dream job here. And you go and play chicken with MLSE? Really? Well, you know, again, my situation was decades ago. I had an owner in Harold Ballard who was very different.

He was not talking to me every day about the offer that was out there. He was very public about uh being able to criticize you in the media um he gave me a phenomenal opportunity when i left i knew where i could go i went to the i had i went to the new york rangers and all i'm telling you is decades later kippy i regret that day for the rest of my life that i left i regret that day for the rest of my life uh there's a lot of positives that came out of it about, you know, about my stature as far as a potential media guy went, what have you. But I, honestly, you move on, whatever. But if I had one thing I could do over, that would have been it.

So I just look back. It was to be with the Toronto May Police. I don't mean just as general manager, but to be there for, you for working in that office 10 years. Yeah. Are you kidding me? I hear you, man. Driving your car in there and parking at Maple Leaf Gardens or something. Are you kidding me? And that's why when people talk about the pressure and all that,

I kind of go, are you kidding me? Like it's a Toronto, like Inga Hammerstrom's line, that's it. Damien Cox and I were doing a book on the whole 78 team, and Inga just said when Jerry McNamara talked to him in Borya Sámi, he goes, bleepity bleep, it's the Toronto Maple Leafs. Like in Sweden. Way back when.

You know, I wish Kyle Dubas had a chance to talk to you like this. Maybe he would have gone a different way by Monday. If he would have just, you would have been the perfect guy for Kyle Dubas to talk I think so I like I said I had these conversations with Alex Anthopoulos because he's a neighbor and the Jays situation they were giving him a push you know and he got a chance to come back but in a different position but we had a lot of you know heart-to-heart chats about you know about things but yeah I I um Brendanndan talks about it brendan's one stanley cops he's done a lot of things but he's still the mimico guy that got to uh as president you know change

the jersey for the toronto maple leafs to make it more traditional he thinks it's that's the coolest thing in the world because it's the toronto maple leaves i you know i really have to say taking this at face value you have to respect the decision big time from Brandon Shanahan. No, no. He had no choice. No choice. No choice. I wrote an article the other day on Thursday,

and there was no going back from Monday. Not a chance. And you look at you look one time at Kyle Dubas screaming at the fans in Tampa Bay and you know Sammy on face value you're like yeah he's one of us

look at him I love it he's just you know I loved it. I loved it. But on face value you loved it because that's your fan. Yes correct. And then you kind of watch a little bit more, and then the water bottles, and then Monday, and now you start connecting the dots a little bit here. And, yes, the stress was getting to him,

and it kind of makes a little bit more sense. And then Monday rolls around, and how could Brendan in his right mind go, okay, we'll give you a little bit more. What else do you want? How much do you give, give, give? And then what? Well, Brendan claims the new contract was in place once the trade deadline was over.

He started talks again after he told Kyle in the summer that there would not be a new contract starting the season. So you got some time for that okay now the understanding you're going to get a new contract and i'm thinking part of the pressure him watching is me not knowing stuff behind the scenes is he's thinking okay if we go out in four or five to florida i'm not going to get a contract you know to me that i'm thinking that's what that's why he seemed to be more animated and feel more pressure uh you know during those games but once he knows he's getting a contract then that cut if the pressure is that no he knew he's getting a contract well he said since i know i know but i mean i didn't watching it i'm thinking oh at the time yeah like i'm just

watching not knowing thinking okay he's seeing he's seeing that ever about uh making the playoffs or uh getting out of the first round or the second it was just a matter of of a timing issue once after the trade deadline he knew it was coming now it was all about the money yeah and any any done he did a solid job in the regular season i brendan says that i i agree with it. And you're right. And almost, I don't know if now, if he, hey, we're human, that in Kyle's case,

that he thought, okay, okay, you bleepity bleeps. You made me sweat. I'm not going to be that easy to, you know, come back into the fold. I don't know it, but it does kind of appear with it, just given the change of heart so quickly and then the fact he tried to push for more money there is a bit of a narrative out there and I'll

go to you guys first before I comment that that the best chance for Austin Matthews to resign was through Kyle Dubas that that was maybe something that Kyle knew? Was that a card that he also played? That I'm the best chance, he loves me? Who's going first? You are. Austin Matthews' family love Lou Lamorello. Lou's a great guy. Every family loves Lou Lamorello.

They do. Lou's always been big on how he treats the families. So they, and then, I don't know, I'm sure they like Kyle Dubas. I they and then i don't know i'm sure they like kyle dubas i just know they really like lou sure they like like kyle as well but i don't know one player you tell me one player that stayed in a city totally predicated on who the general manager was you know you can like whoever there are but it's the it's going to be a number of other things that'll that'll uh make decision for Austin Matthews. And if it's Brandon Pridham that is the general manager or someone like him,

he's a very competent, excellent guy. I mean, there's a great organization in place that they've all complemented, starting from the ownership level to Brandon to the management, including Kyle and everybody else. So, you know, sorry, in my opinion, it does not matter one iota. Zippity-doo-dah, Sam. Yeah. Zippity-ay, by the way. I think the Matthews thing is definitely one that's going to get put out there,

but I think Gordo nailed it. Like, if he wants to be here, if he wants to be a Toronto Maple Leaf and everybody made all that out of him wearing the Leaf stuff at the presser on Monday and the way he talked about wanting to be here, that's truly the case I don't think it should really matter who's in charge of the team you're not I don't think you're talking to the general manager that like I don't know what the relationship would be like he knows him obviously gave him a lot of money obviously likes the guy but if he wants to be here he's gonna be here regardless of Kyle Dubas no I think I think Gordo nailed it yeah it's unanimous uh but there's

no question that uh the matthews camped were there was that kind of that two horse race a little bit between uh dubas and and uh mark hunter yeah and uh there's no question that uh their preference was dubas okay so i don't know how much that came into play back then or not. But you're right. It's going to be his desire to be here and the money. Make no mistake about it. They go hand in hand. By the way, Mark Hunter is a legitimate candidate for the Calgary Flames of all the timing was.

Yeah. Legitimate. And there are some people suggesting that Brendan should go back and get him. I just don't see that. Oh, the one thing he said, an experienced GM. That's the one thing Brendan said. Jumped out to me, too. Yeah, so it means not Kyle Dubas.

It means more like a Lou Lamorello hire. He's going to go get someone older. And let's make no mistake about it. The pressure on whoever comes in to make decisions right away, like he is on the clock. Brendan Shanahan's on the clock to find somebody. Every day that goes by that you don't have someone making a decision on your core four with no move clause kicking in July 1st. Wow.

You know who's handled things? And I have no idea if he's... I'm not a shill for him or not. Just Brad Treliving handled things very well in Calgary. All I'm just saying is his exit in Calgary, I would think, would make him a candidate in other places. And think about this, though, is that he left this time going into the summer he he had matthew kachuk and he had to think very quickly on his feet when he

made when it was abundantly clear that kachuk was not coming back he he could be looking at the exact same scenario with Austin Matthews. Quickly. Back to back with two different teams. But to Sam's point, that was the best part Monday from a Leaf point of view. The surprising part was Kyle's statement. Austin, for the first time, not being vanilla and saying, I'm looking to stay here for a lot of years. He could have kept cards to the vest and just, well, I'm going to talk, going to figure it out. But he actually expressed that, stay here for a lot of years like he could have kept cards to the vest and just you know well i'm

gonna talk gonna figure it out but but he actually expressed that which i view i view as a positive can i just say that though for and listen yeah after what i've seen the last few years with unrestricted free agents go back and find the comments on with john tavaris with the islanders did he say that go back and find john Johnny Goudreau in Calgary. No, John Tavares always kept it close to the vest. I don't know about Johnny Goudreau. They all, no one gave the impression that they didn't like where they were.

No, but they don't say anything. I know, but they don't offer up, I want to be here for many years. I'll dig out some quotes for you. And they were all under the impression that they'll work something out. Yeah. Yeah, they like it here and blah, blah, blah.

That's where I like Kawhi. Let's just wait and see. Kawhi Leonard never gave us one second of doubt. And I'm not saying that he won't resign. But I'm just saying, how can you truly trust it in today's world when it's, as Kyle proved this week, it's all about the money. Yeah, well, we know what the money is. The thing is, we don't know a coach or general manager. There's no cap.

There's no ceiling. There's no floor. We do know what the max is for Austin Matthews or anybody else for all 32 NHL teams. So whatever that money is, nobody else can ridiculously, everyone has the same crack at paying it to him. Kipper, I know you're bang on. People say a lot of things. Kyle Dubas said he won't work anywhere else other than the Leafs.

Is that going to be the case on June 30th? I'm not saying that Austin Matthews will not be back or sign a long-term job. All I'm saying is, again, prime example, Monday's press conference. A lot of people were sympathetic for kyle with the family thing yeah and the stress and and still are about that part listen it is it's legit we know it's legit today that there's mental health issues with people and we are as a society very sympathetic to that today but when you turn around and say to brendan shanahan i'm okay now everything's fine but here's my new package then i'm sorry i'll do you talk to kyle much i do not i never you said i've talked to him less than any gentleman i'm a little surprised to be

honest with you not that it's supposed to be pally wally but i mean whether it's dave known as brian burke john ferguson cliff flet you know, on and on and on. You know, just, but I do know that one brief conversation he just talked about his kids being in hockey. And how much he loved that. Like, it's busy being a parent, you know, and that. And obviously, when you're out, if your kid's playing hockey and that, there's, you're, by your face, the recognition factor, you're never ducking questions or all those other kinds of things that are going on and you know probably same with the family where you're just trying to get out but that seemed to be a that seemed to be a thing that he he really really enjoyed i mean that's to say like i said i hardly ever talked to him as far as the modern leaf world i don't think anyone's Leafs, like you, over the years, where does this rank in Leaf craziness?

I don't know the term. Well, yeah, okay, so, well, okay, you look at Ken Dryden coming from left field to replace Cliff Fletcher, right? That was one, you know, Ken, you know, because Cliff had done a really good job and Steve Stavro had taken over the owner and he wasn't, Cliff wasn't his guy right that was one you know ken you know because cliff had done a really good job and steve stavro had taken over the owner and he wasn't cliff wasn't his guy and and he went totally in a different way and ken was president and gm actually and he brought in andrews headberg and mike smith and you know that was the kind that would be a shocker in that regard um matt sundin

was kind of different because you know it was the end of his career but just unfortunately the way that last year got kind of mishandled about going to vancouver and all but that wasn't you know like like this i i'm i'm trying to think any other i don't know like even punch well okay but that's somebody coming back though you know like people didn't realize when he came back the second time that he came back to torch the team and i always have to say eddie olchuk's line of uh what is the uh full disclosure i love eddie's line full disclosure that the second coming punch him like he couldn't have been nicer to el gordo i just say so i mean he could not have been nicer to me than he was but it it blew up that team like it blew up a very so that wasn't something on a day like this you know a one day thing that you kind of um hey john taveras coming that was july 1st that was big yeah we were on the air that was big that that was wow he's actually coming wow the picture you know so to me that

might be like a like the last kind of you know one hour event like we just had here that might have been the last one that was an all--timer. Yeah, it was. That press conference. Absolutely. When he sat down and you could just tell the way his body language, his tone immediately that he was going to be pretty open book. So should we break, get the Mac? Yeah. Yeah.

The word that stands out for me in all of this from Brendan Shanahan, wounded. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Wounded. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Very good. And he, cause he,

he, he always, he has a strong personality and he wants to depict that, but you're a hundred percent right. And I also don't like during the season, we heard stuff that, okay, the,

the, anyway, we want to get Mac, but the, the, the, the cozy, cozy relationship that it had,

and it should have moments. You should have moments you should have moments professionally about stuff but yeah i i would say yeah when he got it when he got that call from kyle dubas's agent wounded would be would be the word we're going to take a quick break here upon our return after the break doug mclean former nhl president g, and head coach discussing Kyle Dubas out as general manager of the Toronto Maple Leaf. What defines his era, and where do the Leafs go from here? I am nervous bringing in Doug McClain. I got to be honest with you.

I have no idea where he's going to take this. Almost 6,000, over 6,000 people watching on YouTube, so I think people are interested in this story there, Kipper. Is that because Doug's coming on? Yeah, no, that's for YouTube. We don't call it Off the Rails Friday for nothing. Doug McClain after the break. In-depth Blue Jays coverage with an analytical twist.

Jays Talk Plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download Jays Talk on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. All right. I think Doug McClain's trying to escape all of this because he's at the airport right now. I just have to go, but I want to come back.

My wife's in there. You all right there, Mac? No, I just said to make sure I could get back. Hey. Okay, you want to call him back, or does he know he's on air? Earth to Doug McClain. Doug. Can you hear me?

Yeah, now we can hear you. Hey. I was just telling everybody you're trying to escape all of this madness in Toronto. You're at an airport. Yeah. I'm at Pearson in Toronto. I should have come in and sat in live. You should have covered the press conference.

It was the best press conference I've ever seen. It was on TV there, and there was no volume. It was perfect. Oh, jeez. Please tell me you heard it, or we're not going to have to explain it to you, are we? They had, like, the teleprompter thing, right? Did they have it in print? I heard the one the other day.

I didn't have to hear any more after I heard that one. Oh, you didn't catch Brendan Shanahan today? I heard what he said. Yes, I heard what he said. Well, just come on. Is his flight late or something like that? I'm an amateur host here. Work with me.

What did you make of it today? Brendan Shanahan's comments, the play-by-play of the negotiation from last September to where we are today. I guess I found it pretty bizarre. But first of all, I think one thing you have to understand when you're a guy once told me that when you put your hand in a bucket of water and the hole that's left there when you take it out is how indispensable you are. And when you're a general manager in the NHL and your team just got beat out and you go up to the podium and say you're not sure you still want the job, that just doesn't happen.

There's 30 of these jobs in the world, and especially one as good as the Toronto Maple Leafs job. So when I heard him say that the other day, that he wanted time, he didn't know if he wanted to come back, I couldn't believe what I was listening to. And I understand the pressure of the job. I understand how tough it is. You just don't say that when you've just been beaten out in front of your players and everybody in your organization. You just don't say it.

And Brendan basically said today it changed his mind when he heard that. You know, so I'm not surprised. I mean, what do you say? And then you come back and say, no, I really want the job, and this is what I want for a salary. No, it doesn't fly. Sorry. Well, actually, yeah, well, the other part, Doug, is you mentioned the first part,

but, I mean, I really want the job was the third part. The second part, about a new offer being presented. And, you know, we said, Brendan, we thought he'd be close to the vest, but he just wanted to enlighten all the details from his point of view. And it sounded like at that point, when he came back, where his agent did anyway,, representative with a new proposal, that that was the day the music really died. Yeah, 100 percent. So, you know, it's funny when you're when you're a GM in the NHL and you're negotiating with your president or your owner, it's a different negotiation.

And, Gord, you know that. It's not like a coach negotiation. It's not like a director of amateur scouting negotiation or a player negotiation. You're supposed to be a team, and you're supposed to have a good feel and a good vibe as to what the parameters are and where we're going here. And, you know, he made an offer early in March. Didn't he say they started to talk in March?

Yes. So, to me, it doesn't, you know, it's just bizarre. But let me just give you a little story here. Ten years ago, I get a call from a friend of mine saying Kyle Dubas wants to have lunch with me. That's just after, you know, when I was working for Sportsnet. Kyle Dubas was a GM in Sault Ste. Marie. Said he wanted to meet with me for lunch. Could I have lunch with him?

So I did. I didn't know the kid. Never met him before in my life and he talked to me said he wanted to talk to me because he felt his owners in sioux saint marie were ready to fire him and he wanted advice from me as to how to deal with his owners when your job's on the line and he knew i had a lot of experience with that i guess so i talked to i mean we spent an hour and a half with him i spent an hour and a half with him talked to him about you know strategies to try to work with your owners and make sure that you survived as best you could and that was 10 years ago or long maybe a little

longer than that and it was greg millen who was sitting with me in the meeting, because they were friends at that time. So, you know, this isn't just new. When you're a GM in the NHL and your team is just weird, do you think your players want to hear that, well, I'm not sure if I really want to be back? I know. I understand the stress and the pressure and everything that goes with it, but you just can't say that to your fan base and to your owners and to everybody else.

You can think it, you can tell your boss that one-on-one, but you don't say it in the press conference. I guarantee you that. It sends a wrong message. So, and you know what? I like Kyle. I think he's done a decent job. I mean, he's been told for 10 years or less,

I guess, that you can't build a winner when you've got $45 million tied up in four players. How many times has that been said? Not a good enough goaltending, not a good enough blue line, not good enough depth, guys, because it's unbelievably hard to do it and that's what he attempted to do about three different times with a different group and it didn't work we're talking a lot of times because he didn't he didn't have a good enough goal we're talking to doug mcclain former nhl president gm and head coach mac brendan shanahan you watch him he's a Hall of Famer, Stanley Cup champion. Not too many things he's done in his life, you know, have gone poorly or sideways, right?

If you go back almost 10 years ago, he goes and finds Kyle Dubas. Gord articulated earlier how that relationship kind of started. He's early in his tenure as a president. He goes out of his way, man. It's a real wow moment that you would go make this guy. Cold calls him.

You go hire this guy when nobody else would touch him with a 10-foot pole. Nine years later, it comes to this. How would Brendan Shanahan be feeling right now? Well, you know what? I think he would be disappointed because, I mean, obviously,

he's got to really respect and like Kyle Dubas. And that's typically what happens when you are in the trenches with somebody for a long time. Yeah, guys get fired, but guys still stay friends. But I'll tell you what, I really believe the commentary at the press conference through Brendan Furlough. Like I listened to Kenny Holland the other day, who's won a few Stanley Cups,

and I listened to him talk about how devastated he was about losing, how devastated his players were about losing, and we're going to grind it out and try to make this work. We're going to work today. The players are going to work today. I'm going to work today. We're going to go and we're going to grind it out and try to figure this out. That was their message.

That wasn't the message that came out of Toronto. So, yeah, Brendan would be disappointed. But Brendan's a guy that's been around Stanley Cup winners in Detroit, with guys that go through the wall. And when he heard those comments the other day, I can't believe. I think it threw him for a loop. I really do. I think it was a factor.

And today. I think it was more of a factor than a negotiation, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Okay, so Doug, the other thing, and you know as well as anybody about just talking earlier with Kipper and Sammy about it, that, okay, we know there's serious ramifications for flat-out tampering, but people do know the skinny what's going on, okay?

And so, you know, a lot of people talked up Kyle that as a unrestricted free agent, basically, he would be a hot commodity. And what do you think in his mind that he felt there was, even though he said he wasn't going to pop up somewhere else, he just wanted to stay in Toronto, but the figure he felt he would get somewhere else, that all of a sudden he got in his mind that I'm going to try to play this out

and get that figure here, and it backfired. Well, I think it did. I think it did i think it did and you know i mean listen i i get that you know maybe pittsburgh have talked you know there's been conversations i don't know with kyle but i guarantee his agents talk to people i don't know who he's talked to or but he certainly got a vibe but you know this is the toronto maples this is this is the this is the Toronto Maples. This is the greatest hockey town, one of the greatest hockey towns in the world, and an organization with a history.

I know they haven't won. I get all this, yeah, buts, yeah, buts, but it's still the Toronto Maples. And, I mean, yeah, it's exciting. If you want to go to Pittsburgh and do a total 100% rebuild with Malkin, you've got a big four there, but they're 40, 35 to 40. Big difference. That's a big rebuild.

That's a tough job. And, you know, maybe he wants to do that. I don't know. But, you know, I think he really wanted to stay and get caught. I think he got caught at the end of the day. I really do. Mac, you know, just on that topic, you know, if there was just before just before we go on, let me just say one other thing. When you when you send a when you send a counter offer back to your bosses and you're a GM and you're sending it back to either an owner or a president, you do not, trust me on this, you do not insult them. You don't insult them.

You don't insult your owner and you don't insult your company. If you want to, you better be prepared for the ramifications. And that's exactly what happened. In saying that, Mac, you know, you've been a president. If there's 31 other teams right now looking at Kyle Dubas, where's his reputation today prior to Monday's press conference here? If you were in a position right now to look at Kyle Dubas, I mean, what would you be thinking? Well, I guess you look at the body of work and you say, okay, he, he, when he took over the team at 105

points and they went up to 107 points in the regular season, they were a very good regular season team. They aren't built for the playoffs. I guess that's what you'd have to say, or it certainly would indicate that. I would, I would question them on the commentary. I would question them on the commentary i would question him on how bad do you really want to do this job do you really want to do this job and then you'd look under the covers and you'd say okay you know he had one draft pick playing for one guy he picked as the draft pick playing on the team i think was lilligrand to draft it is. Yeah. Nice play. And nice play two games or three games.

He was the other draft pick. So the drafting, I guess it's been okay, but he's had to trade so many first round picks away to, to get rid of bad deals. I mean, I looked last night, you know,

the Marlowe deal ended up being Jarvis in Carolina. Lots of people see, you know, we see all these type things, but you look under the cover and say, okay, he did a good job. He did a good job. I can't say he did a great job. I'd say he did a good job.

But would. I hope he gets another job. But with what unfolded since Monday, is he less trustworthy? I, you know, I don't know. trustworthy? I, you know, I don't know. I'd have to really know what the relationship was with Brendan. I mean, was he trying to get more power? Did he feel Brendan was blocking him out from doing some things? It's hard to comment until you know, until, you know,

somebody tells me what really went on there. Just because they're not sitting together in the press box doesn't tell me you're at a press conference together. You know, I know Brendan said he didn't want him to do it at that time, but was Brendan blocking him out? Did he want more autonomy? Then that would, if that's the case and he can sell that, that would be a positive, I guess.

I want to be in charge, you know. And he had a positive i guess that i i want to i want to be in charge you know i you know he had a hard time with that you you mentioned about see this one thing that got me about monday was and i think too often the exit interviews now you know they're they're choreographed it almost seems in many ways by the players they say all the right things in that but you know you you wanted like in edmonton they were pissed you, this, geez, we didn't seize the opportunity. And that's what we didn't see from the Toronto Maple Leafs about those three games against the Florida Panthers where they didn't get the jump on things.

You know, that's what I wanted to hear a bit, that, okay, we got to learn from this if we want to go further with this group. Instead, everything was hunky-dory, and the general manager wasn't sure he wanted to manage the team anymore. I mean, it just was so bizarre compared to what you articulated in Edmonton.

It was 100% bizarre. And I'm sitting there watching and I'm thinking, God, he sounds like his players. He sounds like his players. Only he doesn't really, they wanted to come back and he wasn't sure he wanted to come back. I mean, I just, I think it bothered people that they weren't a little more thrown.

But let's not kid ourselves. They want to come back. Austin Matthews wants to come back if he gets the money, if he gets his money. Let's not kid ourselves. Austin will change real fast if he doesn't get the offer he wants. You guys know that better than I do. So it's great to say, oh, I want to be back, and we're going to do this, we're going to do that, and I love Kyle.

If he doesn't get the money, that will change real fast. So, you know, I think, I don't know. I mean, look, it's tough. Having a general manager's job, because I was a general manager for 11 years, it was a privilege, a privilege to be a general manager in the NHL. There's two guys, 207 people,

have been general managers in the NHL in the history of the league that's been going for well over 100 years. 207 guys have had the luxury of that job, and you're one of them, Gord. It's a privilege. And you hoard those jobs. You don't give them up.

You don't say, you know what? I've proven over my time I'm just not good enough and pass it on to the next guy. You hoard. Yeah. You wait till you get kicked out. Doug used to bug me. Then the media

ripped you enough so you never get another job again. Kyle's lucky. He's going to go and they think he's great. He's done a great job with the media. I think he's done a great job with the media. I think he's done a great job. I should have when he had invited me for lunch,

I should have asked him about how do you deal with the media, not the owners. That's what I would have learned big time from him. Time to call them jerks. Just from the outside looking in, what would you like to see moving forward for the leafs uh an experienced guy coming in whoever's coming in and even some talk that uh they're

they're uh capologists uh a pridham might just come in and momentarily kind of he's the point guy right now brandon pridham brandon would come and be the point guy, but whoever it is, you're on the clock here. There's no movement clause coming up in a very short while. I would love to see a guy come in that's got some experience and is not scared to make big, bold moves. It's a premier job in the league. A lot of people should be looking for it. A lot of good people in the league should be looking for this job. I think it's got to be somebody that's bold, that's saying,

hey, I'm going in there and this is like watch Florida play Carolina. Watch the way the teams play at playoff time. It's a war. It's a war. It's not noon hour hockey. It's not midnight rec league. It's a war out there. And I would love to see somebody, and I don't know who that person is,

but I watched Kenny Holland, who's one of the most successful general managers in the last 25 years in the NHL. I think you guys would agree with me, Hall of Famer. He was so upset with how they lost and lost to a good team in Vegas. Pretty good team in Vegas. A team that finished out of the minute standing. I've worked with Kenny Holland for five years. I've never seen him that

upset. And that ticked off that they didn't do better. I'd like to see somebody that's... How about Jill? How ticked off is she that you're still on the phone? I'm walking up and down the Toronto Pearson Airport here, and I got my hiking pants on and my hiking boots

because I'm on my way to Portugal to go on a hiking trip. So I wore my hiking shoes so I wouldn't have to pack them, and people are looking at me like I'm a flipping idiot. Other than that, she's sitting up in the American Express lounge having a glass of Chardonnay and a caja and an hors d'oeuvre. That's what she's doing. She doesn't give a rat's ass what I'm doing on the phone talking to you guys.

You got the same outfit as Tom Dundon in the press box last night. Not the same wallet though. All right. So good luck. You're going to Europe right to look for a job. I'm going to see if I can get a job in the Lucerne area in Switzerland right on the lake. I'll get a job in the Lucerne area in Switzerland,

right on the lake. You might get a GM's job over there. All right. Well, listen, safe travels. Thanks for joining us. Okay, guys. All the best. Thanks.

Appreciate you having me on. See you later. Doug McClain. The man speaks for me. I love listening to you when I'm on. I love listening to you when I'm on. I love listening to you when I love that. He does speak of experience like you do. Yeah.

Yeah, well, and actually I was going to leave, but he would do that sometimes when we're on Hockey Central at noon, and then he'd go, yeah, well, you know, you were a GM for like a minute, right, or something like that. And I'd go, yeah, one year with the Maple Leafs is equal with 20 with Columbus and Florida. Give me a break, okay? With Toronto Maple Leafs versus any other organization. So that would be, that would be.

It's an amateur hour at its best. If you could, during commercials, if you could get on, because he was answering phones always to sell land in PEI, right? Always. Central at noon. So he would try to insult you while he was making a sale of one of his townhouses. Or a car dealership in

Burlington. One of the two. Doug's great. I'd love to be able to fly on the wall for Doug's hiking trip to Portugal. Oh my god. I don't even want to do the visual on that. Okay, we're going to take a break, Sammy?

Yeah, let's take a break, and then we'll come back. Maybe we'll get some texts and tweets and stuff from listeners. Most definitely some text questions and some tweets. I know there's a ton watching on our YouTube channel. I think we hit a new record, over 6,000 people. If you love this show, give us a thumbs up. And also a rating and review would be great too on our podcast always available on itunes and spotify it's gourd stelic in for justin born

i'm nick kiprios he's sammy mckee we're going to be back after the break and uh more dissecting on the toronto maple leafs big guests and bigger opinions on everything happening in leafs land real kipper and born be sure to subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts this is real kipper and born on Sportsnet 590, The Van. Wow, feels like this show started like three hours ago. I'm exhausted. You know, we had to wait for the 6.30 sports or whatever and that.

And, boy, it was as advertised. We kicked it around yesterday. Would there be an announcement coming from the Toronto Maple Leafs? We get the news today, yes, 3 p.m. Then, as you said, will Brendan enlighten us? Because fans are owed an enlightenment about what happened. And, boy, he could not have done a more concise and thorough narrative from his point of view. I'm just wondering now if Brendan felt like he had no choice. you can start putting this behind for the organization is to just completely come clean on what happened. Now, in saying that, there is a Kyle Dubas version.

Make no mistake about this. Wherever Kyle was listening or watching Brendan Shanahan, he's really saying that my side of the story still has yet to be unfolded, Gord. Yeah, and Sammy was saying that somebody did make contact with him. Right, Sammy? Pierre Lebrun reached out to him, and he said that he respectfully declined to comment when I reached out.

He said there will be a time and a place for that. So, you know, Doug brought up something interesting about how well he feels Kyle Dubas handled the media. And I thought, really, Kippy, the media has given him a pretty easy ride. I think the media gives

pretty easy rides nowadays compared to, I don't mean the old, whatever, it's just very different because the information is controlled by the teams. It's not like you, you, your opinion is just one of many before. If you were like milk,

Donald or Jim Proudfoot or Alan Abel, or, you know, whatever, whoever the columnists were, you know, that you've really formed the kind of opinions, but he had certain people.

We all do. I mean, back when I was working there, you had people that are in your corner, right? And I, I don't know if, if that ends up being a bit of a i don't want to call it disservice to kyle as well but maybe in trying to gauge where he felt his value was his stature should be uh vis-a-vis other gms and you know that being a reason why he came back or his agent did with that offer two days after he said he needed to figure things out with his family, discuss family reasons, that seemed to be the final straw, the final nail in the coffin

as far as Brendan Shanahan mentioned it. So, you know, it's just an interesting, I would call it game. It's not a game. It's, you know, people's lives and that, but just in his perspective and how much that came into play and certain people maybe fueling that, saying, yeah, you're the best GM in the league. You should be the highest paid GM in the league. People are saying, you know.

There's some suggesting that he could go to Ottawa, he can go to Pittsburgh, and he'd reset the market. I've had people say that, so I don't like, so I don't know. But, but, you know, like I said, I was like, again, to go back to my point with Doug, I wanted the team to be more like, okay, I didn't want theatrics, but Hey, we got a job to do here. You know, we, we got to show up the first three games ready to play next time we're in the second round, you know, and, and, and, you know, be that way, go down that way.

If it's going to happen versus the, everything is which is it is beautiful playing for the toronto may police is beautiful and and leaving it saying geez i don't even know if this guy wants to be here as as their leader yeah it was just more of the same from the players like you honestly gordo and you've done all these covered all these locker cleanouts in this era, you could have done a recording from 2021, 2022, 2020, whenever they've gone out in heartbreaking fashion, you could have pretty much done press and play from the players. Like, there wasn't a lot of difference.

You know, Morgan Riley always speaks a little bit more concisely. He's great. But outside of that, it's pretty similar stuff. I find them kind of lame. I don't even know if they serve a purpose anymore. don't i don't you know i don't know like i'd rather i'd rather sit down have beers with some of the guys or a coffee or something like that just you know that that that kind of stuff what are we uh gourd gonna look back at his nine years five as a general manager and what are we going to remember about his time here as a toronto maple leaf so he was kind of the wonder kid you know um i didn't hear analytics talk

the last five years first off he was like on the cutting edge of analytics that was the first thing and about getting the leafs to the next level and that so anyway saying all that in my opinion he was not handed a team that had to make the playoffs they'd crossed that bridge they hadn't been over it for about 10 years but it was a team that made the playoffs regularly when he got it and they were to get to the next level and it flat out never happened. So, you know, you're talking about, you know, five years, that lack of playoff success, but an exciting, skilled, regular season team. So that's going to be it.

You know, it's kind of what chases some. I love Bruce Boudreaux, but his one thing is about not having the same playoff success at the nhl he's had at other levels but just you know that kind of thing and i think in in kyle's case about you know and also rolling the dice doubling down and doubling down and doubling it down that these are the four forwards they're the cornerstones of the team and we're not ever going to change that sammy i don't want to put you on the spot but i will last five years as general manager his best move best move i think if you're doing it in a vacuum and not looking at it now it would

be tavaris and what that brought right wouldn't you say no no no no no what is his best maybe the one of his worst moves well yeah now it is no it is. No, it was back then, too. Okay, no, wait, wait, no. Whoa, whoa, I got to give the middle here. I got to give the middle. No. Kippy, Kippy, everyone loved that. No.

No, you cannot fault him in the slightest. No, it was a national hot one. It was Canada Day. I was on a desk with Doug McClain, Darren Millard. I want to see the tape. Elliott Friedman. Same tape with Johnny Goodrell. You got to give me that tape.

The first thing we said is 11 million what is that gonna do to Matthews and Marner go find the tape I swear to God the first thing we said is I don't know if this makes any sense to get this guy at 11 million dollars because all you did was just jack up the price on Matthews and Marner okay hold on here now I so first of all I I hallelujah thought that was a great day, okay? And I think most of the public did, okay? He said that day that he had talked to everybody else, and my understanding was, and I said it all summer,

was that Matthews, Marner, Nylander, they were all in sync. He later said, geez, I should have spent more time with Louis Gross, Nylander's agent. Like, he got handed the keys at the 11th hour lou had done most of the you know like he had a very difficult time so after that he should have hit austin would have signed that first week of july at more term okay because john taveras was the story then the season started and by the first game the rock stars were mitch and aust again. And now you were bleeped. You just signed a guy to an 11 million and he's not the rock star to start the season.

He was the rock star of the summer. He was the rock star. Kawhi Leonard was the basketball. I'll tell you exactly what happened. Matthews and Marner saw Tavares go in and say, I'm not backseating to Tavares. I'm sorry. Matthews did. He said, I'm your guy.

You got to pay me more than that. The Matthews money was okay. It's a term. Okay? Like, Conor McDavid signed for eight. Leon Dreisaitl signed for eight. Nathan McKinnon signed for seven. There was no precedent for the five-year contract term-wise.

The problem was, is that you may sit here and say, the AAV was fine at 11-6 but then you had Marner and Marner was coming on like gangbusters with his points his production and every time the Leafs turn around and said you're not in that class all he did was rise and then all of a sudden they're going oh he's he's better than we thought okay okay and and now we better get serious here because he doesn't mind coming in behind matthews but he ain't coming back three million less than him okay so my my point being not in the inside that that july first talk on the taveras day was my understanding from Kyle, kind of like what Pierre Lacroix did years ago when there was no cap in Colorado.

And he called all the agents together and said, okay, Forsberg's going to get this. Patrick Waugh's going to get this. Rob Blake's going to get this. Here's whatever. Here we're being honest about it. Slot him properly. Had him slotted July 1st, all these free agents off the board. The Colorado Avalanche retained them.

But the point is is let's praise Kyle Dubas right now. I look more at something like Zach Hyman, right? Zach Hyman coming in a trade? I'm just looking at... No, he... He's got talent. He's got a talent out there

and that's finding undervalued pieces. Some diamonds in the rough. Well, Carter Verhage went the other way. I mean, it's you know you can you know but that's on that's on mark hunter too carter verhage why is it on mark hunter i i don't know i'm not questioning i just said because he was under his watch and i think if you got him in a certain situation maybe with a couple of beers he'd be the first guy to say i I screwed up on that because they undervalued him at the time. They didn't think he could play. But anyway, the point, like, I mean, there's always

a Dennis Mulligan who didn't pay, you know, so I just, there was a core of guys and they see, and then when he won the championship with the Toronto Marlies, you know, a whack of guys. Now they, I'm trying to think when it crossed over with Lou or not. I mean, they did cross like Connor Brown and those guys go back to lose there, right? Kind of come... Anyway,

on and on. Jack Campbell trade for its time worked out. Jake Muzzin trade for its time worked out. There seems to be a great culture that the guys like playing here, really want to be Toronto Maple Leafs. I don't know what... Gord. Gord.

The culture stinks. Why does it stink? It stinks because the culture doesn't provide a value on the ice, a team sticking together. I don't want to hear that you're down in Arizona and, you know, you're offseason, you guys are all together, you're playing tennis. Just show me that you care about each other on the ice. That's all. The culture wasn't winning culture in the playoffs okay that's all that matters so when mitch has taken some punches and mccabe has taken some punches when he's down there somebody show something that was i'm agreeing i'm just i'm just saying literally you know

keep in mind the culture before was when the the kessel group gave the fans the you know what salute go watch last night if you were able to stay up for four overtime periods. I can stay up. Go see culture of the Florida Panthers and the Carolina Hurricanes on the ice. That's culture. That's the only culture that matters. Well, just today. On the ice.

I know. So today when I was parking somewhere and a car drove by and some guy I don't know said, Gord, that was real playoff hockey last night. You know, that's right. That's right, Gord, that was real playoff hockey last night. No, that's right. That's right. You know, that was real playoff hockey last night. And it's not like they're not capable of doing on the Toronto Maple Leafs side, but you have to, you know, Kippy, you got to win 16 games.

Your New York Ranger team had all that, including a guy like Eddie Olchuk not playing a game, correct? Did he not play a game in the playoffs? No, he did. Oh, he did. Okay. Yeah, he saw action in the Eastern Conference. But guys that were number one line players.

Oh, we all were. Accepting different roles. We all accepted different roles and happily. But anyway, but okay. But it seems like as far as the organization, okay, I'm going to leave that alone because you're right. You want playoff success, but people talk volumes about loving to come to Toronto, wanting to play at Toronto.

I've seen errors where that wasn't the case. So you can go get your endorsement deals? Like, seriously? Really? I think I gave a good answer there. That got you guys fired up. I think I gave the right answer. We also may or may not, our intrepid technical director,

Derek Brandeo, may or may not have the tape of you and Doug McClain talking about this on July 1. Is that true? I just cut Kipper because they went on for quite a while. You guys were known to talk, so I cut out a small piece of it. Into the Wayback Machine, July 1, 2018. If I'm Marner right now, I'm going to play with Tavares. History in the league has always shown if you wait, you get more money. That's just the way it is. If I'm Mitch Marner now, and you might be thinking about me bridging for six or seven years,

or six or seven million, do I not want to wait and play with John Tavares and maybe win a scoring title or sit in the top three or four and go, I'm going to take my $6 million now and I'm going to turn it into $10 or $11. Oh, boy. Wow. Hippie, Karnak. Karnak the Magnificent. Oh, my God.

And he did. Wow. Okay? And you want to know the crazy part about it is? They offered the Leafs $8 million. They presented $8 million times eight. Marner's side presented $8 million. Yes.

Oh, okay. And the Leafs said, no, no, you're not worth that. But my understanding was that summer is when they should have hit. Okay, because as I said, when the puck dropped, you had a problem. Nylander wasn't there. He showed he was willing to push the envelope, and the other guy's money went up every shift they played. Derek, remind me to buy you a coffee.

A coffee? A whole coffee? Oh, my Lord. How about a steak dinner? Wow, a whole coffee. Okay, all right. Maybe a sandwich, too. I cut as much of a dugout

As I could to focus on you solely there Wow What a technical director Do you have the one where Kippy advised me to buy Breaks? No no no Don't dig anymore Don't dig anymore So what do you think his best move is?

TJ Brody? Nylander which everybody made fun of at the time But turned out to be a steal Like what is it? of at the time it turned out to be a steal like what is it listen chen at the deadline they've never won a game in a second round yeah they won one oh yeah that's right yeah but you know what i think they've never won two but kippy and sammy here's what doug mclean i thought had a good analogy said i think he was a really good general manager but not a great general manager.

And I think looking, you know, and that's not an insult because that's kind of what I'm talking about, you know, and, you know, I'm very competent in that. I'm hard-pressed, to be honest with you. I'm hard-pressed to look at his last five years and something right off the top of my head comes and says, that was great. You want to say undervalued uh pieces we can go down the list in terms of what you said um uh including uh bunting right bunting was a nice Michael that's a nice pickup yeah yeah and uh

but when you talk about I can and I will, do you remember those quotes? Mm-hmm. Yep. Kind of paints you in the corner, doesn't it? Yeah, for every bunting, there's a Nick Ritchie. Kind of painted you in a corner, because if I'm, again, one of the core four, and I hear my general manager look a national audience in the eye

and say, oh, we'll get them signed. We'll get them all signed. I'm just sitting there licking my chops going, I'm going to get my money. He just told everybody I'm going to get my money. But again, my assumption that I didn't know was that he had already talked to those guys and had a situation or parameters

in place. But anyway, obviously he didn't. Obviously he didn't. The other thing is he couldn't find a goalie. Yeah. So finally, the one drafted third round when Austin Matthews was taken first round, which him and Hunter were kind of co-GMs

because Lou got hired about three weeks later. First goaltender developed, and I show respect for James Reimer, but he was not viewed as a goalie of the future. But first goaltender looking like he made draft, he drafted and developed from within since Felix bought then. That's ridiculous. Now that goes back on other eras too,

but that's the part. As you look at Boston move on, you know, you got Jeremy Swayman and others, you got, you know, on and on and on. Yeah, that's a killer. And then the fact you had to load them and get favors, like give a first round pick to Chicago to take Marazic. For the last year, we knew that this was the window, right?

That you had to hit. And I believe that there were people inside the organization that told Kyle, don't go Matt Murray. Don't go Matt Murray. He won't be there for you. Just read the tea leaves. He will not be there for you. He said, nope.

I'm smarter than you. I'm signing him. So again, going back, Sam, your question, you know what I will say though? And I think Brendan alluded to this, this trade deadline, I would say he checked most of the boxes, if not all the boxes, Kippy. Like I was impressed, you know,

again, you're going to go to a draft, be reffed of draft picks like a team that's won a stanley cup and that shouldn't be the case i mean if you're trading because that draft that could be a matthew knives could be a joe wall i'm talking about outside the first round or in the first round as well could be a jarvis playing now by the way patrick marlow was signed by lou and that's something kyle inherited that he had to move he had to move that contract the the other thing that Kyle didn't get right in five years is real development from the organization. Like, even his Calder Cup, it didn't produce a Tyler Johnson.

It didn't produce a Killorn. It didn't produce a Braden. It didn't produce Braden Point. Rupe Hintz. Two years in the American League. Yeah. Willie Nylander was down there for a cup of coffee, but... It seemed like he was down there a lot.

I don't know. Outside of Willie Nylander, who stepped up that you just didn't say, oh, it's another... You overcooked Lilligren down there and Sandin, and they ended up just being spare parts. And every year when you got eliminated, again, I want to more praise him, and I think I did, but we had to hear about the process. And you just wanted to say, like Doug said, spit some nails out. Be pissed just about the process.

What, against Columbus? Against Montreal? Playing your worst hockey in the play? That's something that's a problem. That's really inexcusable and had to be eradicated, and yet it showed up again the first three games to a degree, the first three games of the second round against the Florida Panthers. Okay, Sammy, you got a tweet for us? We promised one one and we didn't get to any i don't have much okay let's just let's just stick to you guys all right we got to do a bet 365 too

because we blew that off big time so maybe i'll get that in here now okay it's time for playoff picks presented by bet 365 visit the app for the latest odds and there was a crazy hockey game last night which we didn't talk about at all, obviously, because there's bigger news. How many overtimes did you guys stay up for? I'll put the odds at Kipper, two overtimes at plus 150. And Gordo. Wait, wait, wait.

How many periods did we stay up for, you're saying? Yeah, how many? Did you see the whole thing? No. Not a chance. Do they have a drifting in and out clause? Oh, my God. A thousand percent for me.

Oh, my God. I made it through one, and I was like, I got a 7 a.m. tea time. I'm not making it to it anymore. But the reason I bring that up is because, obviously, Sergey Bobrovsky, who we saw here, and, you know, if he had been a little bit worse, we might not have been having any of these conversations today. He's skyrocketing up the cons my favorite list,

and he's now up to plus 650. We talked about it a couple weeks ago. He was down in the 20 to 1 range. So he's really, really gone up. Everybody kind of thinks he's the favorite. Good value tonight on the Dallas Stars. They're plus money, plus 105 opening up in Vegas. You know, I don't know if they'll necessarily win that series, but I think there's a up in vegas uh you know i don't know if they're

necessarily winning that series but i think there's a chance that they could you know win tonight at least and if you like vegas to win little same game parlay tonight uh a vegas win with a jack eichel goal and a jonathan marsh so going over a half point pays plus 450 so there's a couple things for you tonight. Heading into game one of the Western Conference Finals, fellas. And that was playoff picks presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds. And if I do mention, because I am one of the hosts of the golf show, one of the golf guys here with myself and Brent Gunning,

who will be spiraling about today's news. Corey Connors in the lead at the PGA Championship. That's a two-stroke lead over Scotty Scheffler through two holes at Oak Hill in Rochester. Big weekend coming up. Be really, really fun weekend if Corey Connors' putter holds up, because he's a great ball striker. It's a ball striker's paradise there.

We'll see. Are you doing your golf show on the weekend? We're doing our golf show tomorrow morning. Adam Stanley will join us live from Oak Hill to talk a lot about Corey. Nice plug. There we go, fellas. All right. And any nice golf gesture happen today for you?

And I would love to shout out Gord Stelik. 100%. One of the best guys in the world who I've worked with for, God, it's been a lot longer than I think, maybe seven or eight years now. And we did Leafs Nation postgame together. I now, you know, bug him all the time to come on this show. He fills in here all the time. Love being around him. Gord Stelic

gave me a brand new Scotty Cameron putter today. How about that? Really? A Scotty Cameron putter. It's because it was the wrong way. I got it at a tournament. I'm not lefty. But you just take it to Golftown. People told me that, but when Sammy It's too late now?

No, no, no. I wanted to do it. I'm not one of those guys that you get something for free and you go to Golf Town and flip it. And plus, Sammy is an adept golfer. He's a great guy. He's carried shows I've been on for years, and so I'm proud and honored, even though I forced the shout-out. I'm not allowed to bring golf gift bags home anymore.

My wife will not let me. Lisa's same thing. How many can you pile on in a basement? Yeah, you're right. And also, some of them are crap. Like before you open them and you kind of like, whatever, like versus just have a couple

of good things in. Like our dog doesn't need any juice. And I think that... I thought it was a pepperoni stick once, and it was a pepperoni stick. I took a bite, and it was a pepperoni stick. My wife, if I come home with another golf hat, I think it's a very similar situation.

So, Gordo, I love you, bud. Hey, Gord, I didn't think it's possible that someone can come in and hold their own for Justin. Good job, pal. Thank you, Kipper. It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.