Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Front Office Hypotheticals + Mike Kelly in Montreal

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

Justin Bourne and Sam McKee kick off the Friday edition by reacting to the Toronto Maple Leafs reportedly being denied permission to interview Tampa Bay GM Julien BriseBois. They discuss Tie Domi's involvement in the process before opening up the Leafs Line to take your calls and questions. Then, they look back on the Oilers' playoff elimination after a loss to the Ducks. Later, NHL Network's Mike Kelly joins the show (26:36) from Montreal ahead of Game 6 between the Canadiens and Lightning, and he gets into what John Chayka could add to an already robust analytics department in Toronto, the keys for the Bolts to keep their season alive, and what went wrong for Edmonton in Round One. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in to Real Kipper and Born. I am not Nick Kiprios. I am Justin Bournd. And I am joined today by Sam McKee, who's joining me as co-hosts with No Kipper today, Sammy. Hey, buddy. Yeah, sitting in a different seat. I don't like it.

No. It's amazing how the difference between, I don't know, 10 feet, might as well be on a different planet. Feels totally different. Yes. We got our technical directors, Frank Barasca, and Derek Brandeo. We are live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto, and streaming always on Sportsnet.

Plus, if you miss our show live, you can always get it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube. Here's where Kip says some weird things about begging for thumbs up. Yeah, beg for thumbs up. Thumbs up on the YouTube. Thumbs up, thumbs up. Yeah, and just checking the quick YouTube chat to see how people are reacting to Kipper not being here and me sitting there. Kipper got fired. Is Kipper stuck on the DVP?

Wow, the B team. Sammy looks tired over there. Oh, no, tiny. Tiny. I look tiny. Sam is 6'6. Yeah. There's a lot of man over there.

It's funny. That's when I go out and, you know, public and people see me and they say hello to me or whatever, like the number one thing people say to me is, wow, you're a lot taller than I thought. Yeah. Best thing to hear. Yeah. There's nothing that makes me happier than they're like, oh, you're a lot taller than I thought. I get that too. I think when people see Kipper and I in person and I'm a couple inches taller than Kippen.

People are like, oh, we just assume that that was not the case. A lot of speculation in the chat as well, Kipper potentially GM interview, which, uh, interesting timing for sure. You know, now that you bring it up. No, not out of the question. I think he's doing the Bay Crest today. Like, we used to do it a little bit here too. And I saw his name on a draft board in Mary Ryan's Instagram story. So not getting interviews.

Is it a hockey helps the homeless? Is that the event or something like that one of those. One of those. I apologize if it's, uh, it's, uh, I think for Alzheimer's. They crests to Alzheimer? I think that's what it was. Anyways, it's one of those sort of draft the celebrity things.

Yeah. So no Nick Kiprios today. You got McKee and I for Off the Rails Friday, which immediately kind of thrust it off the rails as is. You know, this has been a week where we've been opening up the shows and just being like, so any thoughts on developing leaf stuff? And there really hasn't been much of anything. No.

It's been like whittling it down from a can't. candidate list of five or six to two or three. And we're stuck in the same two or three. Yeah. And just kind of waiting. So I think there was an interesting development today. 32 thoughts, right? That Friedman said that they asked Lightning's GM, Julian Breezoa, asked for permission.

No. Not allowed. The answer was, no. But I found that interesting that they're willing to ask Breiswa, who I think by all accounts will be looked upon as one of the best general managers in the league. Despite the recent lack of success in the playoffs, I think everybody kind of looks at them as one of the better franchise, one of the best run.

But why they would be willing to talk to him, Borney, since he's under contract, but not Doug Armstrong. Yeah. What is it with Doug Armstrong? Yeah. That is the question that I came out of this, looking at this sheet seeing that Maple Leaf denied permission to interview

Lightning Breeze Wah. Why didn't they ask another guy who was under contract, but like seemingly less under contract, there must have just been something about Armstrong that they don't love. Can I tell you my most cynical take on this? Yes. Which is that.

Please do. They knew they weren't getting Breezebois. But they had to have it out there that they asked. Huh. You know? But it's like there was never any chance that Breezebaugh is going to be like, would I like to go to a division rival who's worse than my current team and in a worse spot?

Yeah, like with way less prospects and probably way less. picks. No, you're right. Twice the scrutiny. Like, absolutely not. You change my title. I don't want to do that. So I think there were a lot of, there's a lot of people going into this saying,

you have to at least ask these guys, ask the big names, whatever. And now they get to go, we asked. I think the risk, if you asked Doug Armstrong, as he might have said yes. And they just didn't want to do that. I just think that there is a dollar amount that that would cost. And I think there's a, you'd have to give them a whole heap of responsibility that maybe they aren't willing to give up. up?

Yeah, okay. I mean, I don't know. Maybe he kicked one of their dogs once fun of time. I don't know. Just my whole adult life watching the Toronto Maple Leafs and following this and being in the middle of it, the next guy would just be Doug Armstrong. Yeah. It's just Doug Armstrong.

He's the guy. He's been rumored already. Like for four years, they've been like, oh, maybe Doug Armstrong when the least jobs comes available. And finally, when he's kind of passing on the responsibility to Alex Steen and seemingly taking more of a step upstairs, that is just the natural move for a business. big hockeyman that's got a huge name just moves into it and they didn't even ask. Just weird to me.

So what is the talk? You got your shared group chats, your hockey team, whatever. You know, when I run into people in my world, the most common thing is just like, right now it's kind of Tidomi stuff. Yeah. You know, like, hey, what's the deal? Like, isn't the son on the team? The interview we did yesterday with Steve Peters.

Yeah. Which spectacular stuff and still holds up today and will forever until they hire Chica, just in terms of information about him. I think what I took away from that and listening to him talk, and I read that story in The Athletic and it was there too. But how maybe involved Ty Domi is in this situation,

I think was more of a development of it. And I think there's just a lot of people being like, why is that the case? And I think, like, listen, Tai Domi, again, part of one of my favorite era of Tonome Police, love Tidomi. You go down to the arena, probably outside of like a lot of the big stars,

the number one jurors you're going to see is Ty Domi. Like he's got a huge presence in the city. Kipper's buddies with him. I understand all that. But I just, I don't know how he was thrust in this position, win-luser tie,

I guess, with Jens was Texas was Texas yesterday. But I think that's a big one. And I just think, like we've talked about all week, the skepticism with Chica, man. I just, it's going to be,

he's starting behind an eight ball for me. And I don't know how he's going to get past it. Yeah. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Show me stuff. It does feel like I almost like, let's say it was like,

hey, it's going to be Ty for president or something like that. Yeah. I think I'd be like, well, that's a guy who's been here every day. He feels like he's in the crowd every time there's a game and he's aware of the happenings of the team. Like, it would probably be easier for Ty to step in and do the job that Matt's is supposedly going to be doing. Agree.

So he definitely is in touch with what's happening here. Yeah. But I just, I don't, I don't love all the connections. Yeah. And the seemingly like, I think a big, one of the big issues with Chica in Arizona and with a lot of people around the league had issues with. And what he sort of alluded to yesterday, Steve, Steve, I was going to say Steve Phillips. Steve Phillips is a baseball analyst. Steve Peters, what he had an issue with and with people around the league, the team had an issue with was that he just was kind of foisted this position, given this position.

And right now with all the sort of connections that are around it and like, you know, there's little rumors of him, the connection with Matthews potentially and all this different stuff. Like it just kind of feels like it's sort of happening again, but on a way bigger and way more important scale. So I don't know. You talked about Don Maloney, like not really having a say. Yes. Having him as an AGM, it's just like this is your AGM.

And with Mats, that's kind of what's happening here again. Yes. This is a guy. Like, do we, do they like each other? They know each other? I couldn't. I mean, just talking about all these connections,

I would assume, like I'm going to do point A, point B, connect dots, mats and tie. Right. Very tight. Yeah. You know, so potentially the arm bones connected to the elbow bone or whatever the hell you want to say. They've probably hung out together because they're in front with Chica. So maybe they've been out hung out together.

Maybe they've gone for steaks together. Maybe they've had a few drinks together. I don't know what they've done. But I would imagine they've been in a room together at some point. Yeah. The other thing that like I had come across my desk with someone was like, yeah, like, Chaka's like stayed in Matthew's house in Arizona in the past. Like they have like some sort of tie through the Arizona thing. And so when you go into these meetings

And one thing we know that the candidates were told Was that keeping Matthews and Nylander are a priority So one side of it is one of the most famous Swedish hockey players of all time Who is a huge advocate of William Nealander And you know was a big part of that trip when they went over to Sweden And interviewed him on stage and all this different stuff knows him well And the other side of is a guy that's potentially friends with Matthews It's like well you could see maybe what the

direction is here. It's awesome. I think one of the biggest things, and we'll get into it in our lease line here, one of the biggest questions about this offseason is the potential of a William Nealander trade. Like if you talk amongst Leaf fans, that's one that pops up a lot. And by the way, it's 30th birthday today. Is it really?

It is depressing. Celebrate is so depressing. Celebrate his 30th birthday by talking about shipping them out of town. Happy birthday, Willie. I know you're listening. Oh, boy. When I was with the Marley's, he was a child. Yeah, it goes fast.

It goes fast. I saw his NHL debut. It goes fast. Is Matt Sundeen going to come in here on, I guess, the middle of May in two weeks or whenever they make this announcement, is he going to come in here and be like, yeah, we're trading William Neeland? Of course not. Of course not. But that's the problem. Why are you hiring people with, like, strong connections to guys that are sort of on the block?

That part of it scares me. they don't want him to be on the block. That is something they've made abundantly clear. But if you have been a close watcher of this franchise. Be open to the block. Like that's not, I'm not even asking you have to trade them, but be open to the potential of somebody coming to your door and being like,

they're not. They're not. And I will say the one of the problems, if you have been a follower of this franchise. Yes. Is that I have been. The inmates running the asylum line. Yes.

Like, you know, that has been the concern that it's like, those guys, remember, was it two or three years ago where they lost a heartbreaker? And Shannie sat down in the press conference and went, just doubled down. They're all safe. Yep. You know, and it was like, God, can you make them nervous for an hour?

Yeah, there never was that. And so now you're going to hire a new president, GM who are both like, safe, safe, safe, whatever you do, safe. Tough for a new coach, which apparently it may not be to pin Willie to the bench. When Willie knows, I'm safe for you, pal. I'm good. Yeah.

All right, let's do a few leaf lines. I think, if I'm not mistaken, Gordon and P.E.I. I think I cut these pretty recently. So he's got a Chica comment. I'm pretty sure. Let's go to Gordon and P.E.I. I wanted to follow up on your interview yesterday with Steve Peters, which was great. Everybody's saying John Jake is smart, which I'm not in a position to contest.

But nobody's really referencing any qualifications to run a hockey team, let alone the Leaps. seems to have backed into the Arizona gig just from a relationship with Domi and the ownership. His draft history, drafted Strom over Suzuki, Norris, Barrett Hayton over Quinn Hughes, Edmund, Soderson over Caulfield, no real trade wins. She's painted as an analytics guy who wasn't worked in hockey analytics in years.

Leaves already have more qualified talent in house with Metcalf. He's shown some bad judgment in his draft. debacle in interviewing for another GM gig. For life of me, I can't understand why he's being considered. So this is what I call. Thank you. Thanks, Gordon, from beautiful P.I. This is what I'm getting at.

This is just Gordo from P.I. Yeah. And he's coming in here being like, What are we doing? Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing, all these things, all these issues. Really well spoken, by the way. Gordon's got to maybe get its own leaf sour. Yeah.

But like, this is kind of where we're at. Yeah. So, I don't know. You know, the interesting thing is like, okay, they want to make more data-centric decisions, right? That was kind of the theme from Pelley's presser on to John Chacon, potentially being hired. It's not, to me, the problem isn't having data. They have data now. No.

Everyone knows that. The idea is, can you pull meaningful insights from the data that other people can't? Can you go through this stuff and find stuff? And we just, we don't have a track record to say that yes, he can't. They, they, you know, he and his sister, Megan built a profitable, successful, very good stats, compilation website. And then it's up to people to pull their own data. That's why multiple NHL teams pay them for the data.

And then they use their own people to pull the insights. We don't know that he can pull the insights. Yeah. So that's a, no, that's all. It's just a let you hope he can. I don't know. So yeah, Gordon, well done. So this one, I think more is about,

so this is from Sunny in the Bay Area. So let's go to Sunny in the Bay Area. I think it's about another. Hold on. The Bay Area. Okay, okay. I said, I'm sunny from the Bay Area. It's not sunny made up from New Jersey.

It was kind of, I had a hard time making it out of his name. So maybe it's not sunny, but I think it's sunny from the Bay Area. And it's more about another possible GM candidate, I'm pretty sure. Sunny in the Bay Area, please. Question for you guys is, now that the stars are out, how does that change things for Scott White? does that potentially kind of move things around? I know there was a desire to kind of keep leaks from happening.

Do you think it was perhaps like a head fake for them to kind of drag us along with Chica only to them potentially hire White as a true candidate? What are your thoughts? See that, I don't know, some guy tweeted this. I don't know, some random person that was like maybe they're trying to run, they're running misdirection with Chica with all these leaks and all this stuff and they're trying to figure it out. And then they're going to go when the start.

go out and they're going to hire. I was going to say Scott White. But that's right, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I hate to admit that I'm like, yeah, let's go with White. Like, I don't know anything about this guy. I know nothing about him.

Less baggage. But he's just been around Jim Nell. They're a good organization. They've worked, you know, I've read some of the stuff from Steve Simmons. I don't think Kipper's been particularly, like, loving of him. But it just feels that at least if it's him, you're starting from zero. You're not starting from below the earth. Yeah.

Right? It just, it would be insane to believe that they have grabbed John Chaka like a battering ram. There's no way. They're just driving him through all the, you know. There's no way. I don't believe it. No, like they are by all accounts in contract negotiation or figuring out the details. But the fact that we haven't heard that he's out to me implies that he's not out.

We haven't, we've heard that Goldberg is out. We've heard that Ryan Martin's out. We haven't heard that White is out. So part of this is, okay, if something goes wrong with these contracts, maybe he's the next guy. Maybe it's, can these three find a way to work this out? I don't think he's out. Would it make you feel better if he was also involved?

Maybe. Yeah. I just, I just feel like every day. I'm just so negative about this Chica thing. But I just, I'm having such a hard time being on the positive side of it. But yeah, I think I would. He's been around a really complex. general manager, but I mean, they've never won anything,

but they've developed and drafted well and are seemingly in a great spot with prospects and players and they've made great trades. Yeah, they've transitioned from one core to the next. They are a desirable franchise in the league, and they look really good. So, like, yeah, I would probably feel a little bit better if he was around.

Having no knowledge of the man. That's just part of this. So let's go to Joey in national. Going all over the world today. Joey in Nashville. I'm watching the Minnesota and Dallas game last night, and I can't help but to see the depth on left wing for Dallas currently sitting at Jason Robertson, which we don't know if he'll be back next year or not. We got Sam Steele and then Michael Bunting. And if you're looking at teams that Toronto could make a move for and with this upcoming offseason, I think Dallas and. and the Matthew Nye's ability to be traded,

it looks like a marriage that could really happen. You think about Wyatt Johnson coming up, a player like Matthew Nye's playing on his wing looks like a good situation for the Dallas Stars moving forward, and it opens up the opportunity to talk about Thomas Harley. Nyes and Harley both have no trade protection on their current contracts, and their contracts they're about to kick in for Thomas Harley, And so my question, be all, is do you view Thomas Harley as a true number one in the league?

And if you do, I love Matthew Nyes, but is that a person with his current contract situation, a person we are willing to move on from, and do you think it's a good trade for both sides? So let me know. Go, Leavesco. That's crazy. Thanks, Joey. That's crazy that we got that call today. And I'm going to tell you why.

Why? Today I was, so I wrote about the oil. today and I said the one thing the Oilers can't do this summer is to look at their roster and say, we got to get rid of him, we got to get rid of him, and no thought about who to get in. Right? This has been my thing that like, let's get rid of this guy more. Who can we get in? So I took five minutes today and I said, who around the league, under contract beloved, who would

be perfect for the leaves? And I was like, Thomas Harley. No. And I was like, and so I thought of Matt. You and Joe. I thought of Matthew Nyes. And I was like, who says no, nize for Harley? And the answer is Dallas.

Dallas. Dallas starts. Thomas Harley is, was he, 22? I think he's a little older than that. 23, 4 maybe. Let me see. But he was Canada's most... He's 24 years old.

24. Most impactful D. Not named Kail McCar. Maybe Sanheim. Yeah. But like he is a absolutely a true top hair guy. He skates, he moves it,

he's everything the Leafs need. He is the perfect sort of antidote to their inability to break the puck out. And so yeah, that was one guy that I was like, I would do that for Matthew Nyes. I don't know. Tapes, something else to Matthew.

It wouldn't be, but I just don't see why Dallas would do it because they don't have the D behind Harley to pick up the slack. Yeah, no, they have, obviously they have Heiskin and, but like you need two good guys.

It's like Heiskenen, Lindel, Liam Bechel is a big third pair guy. They're good. Those guys are good, but like Thomas Harley's a huge part of that equation. Mass of strength of what makes them the Dallas stars. I think it's a great idea when looking around the league.

And this is this sort of stuff. And you go, okay, I can't get him. Could I for this much? Or who's the next guy behind that? That to me is how you go, about fixing the team.

But I truly think it's the craziest thing that the two players in mind I had for a trade in my head was a call we got today. You're crazy. You're crazy. But like, yeah. I would say that it's a type of trade

you could make with some really good prospects or like a top or like a first round pick or he could. You're like Dallas. You're going to reboot. Here's the core of the trade. The two guys that like will matter the most are nis and Harley but here's what the Leafs are going to add on

in that situation to kind of make. But it just they don't have it. And like if you had to do Nyes and Ben Danford. Sure. I mean, I would drive Ben Danford to the airport. But I don't think that's going to get it done. Like, I think they would probably ask if you get your pick this year for that. You know how that happens.

The only way this happens is if they decide to not do Robertson. And they go, Nyes makes seven and a half or 7.75 mil. Robertson's going to be 12. We can flip Robertson for a high price, get another D back for him. Okay, okay, okay. And all of a sudden they need a left winger who's 22. Scott White works in Dallas? We just did it.

Oh my God. Thomas Harley, your newest Maple Leaf. Now we just need a GM and president to facilitate this to place the call. Oh my God, that's great. And then figure out who Jason Robertson goes for. I think the other ones are more just kind of fun calls. Did you want to do some Oilers before we get to? Yeah, or do you want to do a fun call?

Yeah, sure. Elliot's just doing someone signed a contract. I'm just Dylan Holloway, five years, seven times. sorry, five years, 7.75, which is the nyes number. Dylan Hall is really good. Yeah. Would have been useful. Oh, that's a tough.

You know, it's almost like St. Louis did this today as a slap in the face of the Oilers. The timing's insane. To be like, oh, were you missing one really good depth guy? It's like, oh, you didn't like Colton Dock and Trent Frederick, although Colton Dock had some moments. They moved him up a little bit. He was all right. Yeah. Just their death.

A Roslovick workout for you. How'd, you know, they're going through a Savoy. Workout, how'd... You know, Connor was talking about last night, post game, about how much faster the ducks were. It was a hallway skating, pretty quick. Oh, man. The contract today feels really cool.

Let's go to... Let's do Keith and Kitchener. I can't remember this one. I'm sure you guys have already gone over this a few times, but just wondering if the game 7 ticket aftermarket to the World Series in Toronto was 15 grand,

what would Game 7 first only cut final B in Toronto for a Leafs game. Are we thinking 25, 30,000? Or is that too high, too low? Just one of your thoughts. Thanks a lot. Well, with Dougie's new rule. One million dollars.

With Dougie's new rule. Oh, yeah. The real sale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the resale. But why do you mix that one in last year? Yeah. Like around October, November. Save some people some dough.

I think that if you are going to go all across sports, I think the most expensive ticket anywhere like you could get would be a Game 7 Toronto Police sound like a final. Do you know historically, statistically, games five or six where the home team can win will be a more valuable, more expensive ticket than the game 7? Because you don't have the crippling.

You're not going to watch your team lose. Listen, as a person who's experienced that within the last year, it sucks. It's painful. Oh, at least it wasn't close. God. It's not good. Like what else would be, I guess, New York Knicks, Game 7 of NBA finals? Yeah.

Super Bowl is really expensive. You know, I worked. World Cup. World Cup says Derek. That'd be really expensive. But like for the more, for professional sports. Yeah. Go ahead.

I worked at the score for five years or something. And a guy who owns the score there, John Leaver, did own the score. Awesome family. And they were going to go to Rangers. who the Rangers play the Kings in the final at Madison Square Garden. I know a guy in New York who's got seats on the glass at Madison Square Garden

and John was like, he's got money. He was like, see if I can get those tickets or whatever. And I reached out to find out, they were 10 grand U.S. a seat in Madison Square Garden. So like, I can't imagine that here, I mean, you're looking at almost 15 Canadian. Yeah. It wouldn't be 15 here.

It would be more. It'd be higher now. It'd be north of that. But that's illegal now. You can't gouge anymore. Quickly, before we go to Mike Kelly, I'm sure we'll get into this a bit with Mike Kelly, but I really woke up this morning

and just like one of the first thoughts I had before I went on with Ben and Gunner on the morning show was like, I can't believe the ducks beat the oilers. I know. I am in disbelief. And watching the series play out, in retrospect, I shouldn't be in disbelief because of how some of these games looked,

but especially after that game five where they were just so clinical. And they just got ran out of the building, last night by. So funny because the Oilers have always been able to score, but for forever they've been trying to defend. So you're watching this hyper-skilled team be like, all right,

we got to get in Dickinson and get in Doc who hits and get in Murphy and we're going to try to defend. And Anaheim was like, we're good at offense and offense only, so we're going to play offense. Yeah. And they just went, went, went. Odd man rushes last night were 10 to 4 for Anaheim. Yeah, felt worse than that.

Turnover scoring chances were 1810. Like, wow. They just, they just counter strike sort of thing. Yeah, they were too fast for the Oilers. They played all offense. Good for Quenville for leaning into it. And you got to give Jackson Lacombe his flowers. That dude.

I think he just, he kind of, I mean, McDavid's banged up. He still got points or whatever. But as far as quote unquote, shutting down McDavid, you're never going to do that, but to contain him the way he did. Yeah, no points last night. I don't know what the head to head, how many minutes head to head he played with McDavid in this series, but it had to be half the time he was on the ice. he was out there and he did a fantastic job he's probably the star of the first like is he the best player

in the first round of the playoffs a consmite leader yeah i mean we can do that in the game time later wonder what he's at but like he's been excellent and we all kind of like happy gilmer who the hell is jackson lecrum like when they first signed that contract but boy he's been unbelievable the oilers zero power play attempts last night they didn't get a look on the power play which is such a strength of theirs and their penalty kill train wreck killed him killed him but david said it killed him all year too in the post game anyways The year they went to the cup final, not last year, but the one before, they were like 92% on the kill or something.

They were, they're combined between penalty kill and power play was unbelievable. They ate off that the whole way. That's what you need to do. All right, bud. Yes, indeed. Okay, when we come back, we're going to be in touch with our boy, Mike Kelly. Talk about, oh, some data-centric thoughts. I think he's at the Bell Center potentially.

Oh, beautiful. Yeah, all right. More of Mike Kelly after this. Hey, it's Aylish Forafar. And I'm Justin Cuthers. Join us as we discuss the. most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. It's the fan free game.

6 p.m. weekdays on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, the fan, and wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to Real Kipper and Bourne. I am your host today, Justin Bourne, here with my boy, Sammy McKee, and we are... Hello. Hello, he's here too. And we are now joined by the Director of Analytics and Insights at Sports Logic, hockey analyst for NHL Network, friend of the show, and someone we're happy to have on looking good.

is that a baby blue suit, Kells? How can they, how can I can't get in Canada jacket? I just need the little patch and I'd be Dick Irvin. Well, thanks for joining us, man. So you are there, you're alive and ready to go tonight.

Are you covering it on behalf of NHL Network? Yeah, doing a little bit with NHL Network coming up here. But honestly, here, just someone who wants to take in a great game. The city is on fire. and the bell center, as you guys know, especially in the playoffs. I mean, there's nothing else in the league like it. So it's a fun place to be.

Yeah, I also was listening to John Cooper's availability today, Mike. And was he referring to you when he was like, hey, Mikey, when he was talking about an analytics guy? Was that you that was getting referred to? That is accurate. Yes. He was talking something to the effect of, like, you know, teams winning percentage to win the cup at the start of the season is pretty low.

Yeah. 8 or 9% or whatever it was. And then he's like, if only there was an analytics guy in the room and everyone kind of looks at me. I'm like, I don't know that off the top of my head. Well, like, sounds right to me. Mike, you can't make excuses for your fourth straight

first-down exit, buddy. Sorry. Yeah. I feel bad asking this as you're in the bell center, but I'm going to ask a least question here. Sure. I mean, analytics guy, lots of, you know, ties in the industry.

Do you have any experience with John Chike? anything you can share, if you can handle this job? Is there anything you can tell us on him, Mike? A little bit. Very early in my career, I actually worked with John on a contract for a short period of time. So I got to know him a little bit. This is going back about 10, 10, 11 years ago. Okay.

Before he went to the coyotes shortly before. So I got to know him a little bit. He's a highly intelligent and driven individual. I haven't had much contact with him over the last 10 years. So, you know, that's a third of his life. I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you all about who he is today. But I think it's pretty well documented, you know, the path that he was on. And what worked in Arizona while he was there, what didn't work.

And like I said, no, I wouldn't be able to tell you from the last 10 years or so where he's at. Sure enough. Mike, every NHL team now has people run in numbers and they have a mountain of information. Tell us a little bit about how teams glean insights from this mountain of data. Like this is if the Leafs want to run a more data-centric program here, what does that mean? What's that look like? Well, look, in the Leafs case, it's kind of hard to say because they've had one of the most robust analytics departments in the league for a number of years.

how much of that actually got into the decision making under Kyle Dubus, I imagine quite a bit. Under Brad Trilliving, I'm not sure. So I don't know that it's, you know, somebody like John comes in or somebody who has more of a background in analytics, comes in and opens the door to all this new information and technology, maybe some. But I imagine it would be more integral in terms of being a part of decision making for better or worse. So that's the thing with Toronto. It's not like I'm sitting in Montreal right here, right? About five-ish years ago, they hired Chris Boucher,

who I used to work with at Sport Logic, to be their director of analytics. They didn't have a department. So he built it. That's very different than going into Toronto as a GM with an already established, very robust department. Maybe you bring in new people. Maybe you put more of an emphasis on certain information. Maybe you build out your infrastructure differently.

Those are all the things that you can kind of do with fresh eyes. So let me ask you, if you were to work for an NHL team, what would you find important? You guys pull so much information over the course of any given, you know, day. What do you think matters? Look, for me, you really drill it down to the end point. It's what are the ground truths of the game that you have to be efficient in and good at to win? And then what are you trying to do as a team? because there's more than one way to accomplish any goal, scoring goals, depending, etc.

And I'd want to have checkmarks, checklists on both of those fronts. And the ground truths are non-negotiable, you have to hit them. And then your style of player, what you believe, your coaching staff believes, will get the best out of that group. That can be a little more fluid. What I would want to do at the end of the day is ultimately how's as much good information and data as you can, puck and player tracking data, third-party event data, build metrics in-house, do all of these things, and make it available very simply to every

facet of the organization so that scouts are using the same platform as your analytics department, as your coaches, as your front office executives, very holistic approach. And I think making sure that everybody in the organization is pulling the rope the same way in terms of how to use it effectively is important. And also I'll say this too, Boren, because you know this you dig into numbers as well one of the great lessons i've learned in my 10 years working in this space is how much and how important it is to understand what you cannot measure or you cannot be certain of that is just as important as believing in and measuring the things that you can yeah that's well said there uh guys okay to move on to the eye for hockey so you're in montreal uh

lightning habs i mean to the eye this has seemingly been incredibly close And, you know, even Cooper alluded to it this morning talking about how there, has there been a two-goal lead yet or maybe one two-goal lead this whole series? I mean, what are you seeing in this series? What are you expecting tonight? It's going to be electric there, like you said. It will, yeah. I'm really fascinated to see how the Canadians come out and start this game.

They're a younger group that hasn't really been some of these guys on the edge of advancing, let alone at home. Usually you think the home team gets that five, ten-minute bump and the road team's just got a, you know, hold tight and weather the storm, as they say. Tampa's going to give you everything they got in this game. They're a veteran group and they know what's at stake. So I wonder if it might go the other way. Anecotal hypothesis.

I don't know. We'll see. But it's been so close. I mean, the series has been tied for 59% of the time. That's the most of any series. Every game has been a one goal game. The outcome is going to be, you know, on the margins. And they're razor thin.

So is this a game? Like at five on five, goals are nine, eight, Montreal. Is this a game where the Suzuki line does something of five on five? They haven't done anything. The depth, here's where it's really different. Top seven skaters for the Canadians, forwards, in terms of ice time, and even strength have no goals. The bottom six have eight. For Tampa, the top six guys have seven goals.

The bottom six have one. Wow. Roughly the same amount of goals. entirely different. So we'll see. You know, Dobish has been awesome. I think Tampa can do a better job at getting in his face a little bit more

and getting more traffic in front of him. He's a big guy. And Vasilevsky's been, you know, good, but ultimately outduled to this point. I wouldn't even say he's been bad. He's just, he hasn't been as good as the other guy. It's funny. You said that they need to get in Dobish's face a little bit more.

Dobsh is hoping that Cory Perry and Brandon Hagel aren't listening to you right now. Those two guys, they live in the blue bank. They know how to do it. Corey Perry has actually, he's played the second most elimination games in his NHL career. Only Ray Bork had played more. By the way, he's been in 36 elimination games over the course of his career.

So, Kels, when we pull like all this information, I've seen all the stats about how even it is, you know, five on five, a million different categories. They're the same team. Underneath, when you're looking at the numbers, is there, does one team have an advantage in rush chances or forecheck or cycle is there somewhere you're seeing a leg up? Well, I guess ultimately, Borny, just a little different because quality shots are roughly the same. Expected goals are roughly the same and that's what that all meshes into.

But yeah, rush chances of favored Tampa. I don't think that should be entirely surprising. You know, cycles favored Montreal. So you can split it in different ways and find differences, but ultimately at the very end, it all comes together to be something that's been pretty close. I'll say this, though, a lot more, Tampa's had more shots, more chances, but from slightly less dangerous areas,

where Montreal's had less but more dangerous, that net front inner slot area, I just talked about for Tampa. It's important, one, because that's where so many goals get scored anyways, but two, like I said, Dobish is a big guy. This is going to sound a little ridiculous because it's the same, of course, for every goalie, but the closer you are shooting to Dobish

and the less reaction time he has, the worst he's been this year. Of course, that's kind of uniform true, but it's even more true with him relative to other goalies. So that's where Tampa Bay, they had 11 inner slot shots in game four, which they won. They've only got 24, I think, off the top of my head in the entire series. So there's been games where they've had two or three.

Like it's just, they got it, they got to get in there more. And I'll just add, Vasilevsky, I think, has been worse from distance over the past few playoffs. So almost a game of where Montreal needs to pepper them and Tampa Bay needs to get inside.

Yeah, just with Vaselowski, I can't think of a guy that went from the most horrifying guy to go up against to it feels like every point shot's going in. Like the flip with him has been unbelievable. Yeah, without going into like too much detail, say if you look at Slavkovsky's game one overtime goal and you look at Tesier's game winning goal last game. there's something like the glove those shots to the glove there's you know there's something in common

with both of them and he's a great goalie we know that we know what his performance has been like in elimination games too right like is anyone going to be shocked if he comes out here tonight and at the end of the game we're like massie did it here we go game seven yeah totally no it's very possible all right you're good on the canadian series all right so just before we let you go mike want to get your thoughts on the end of the Edmonton Oilers season. The way that played out, obviously you'd be familiar with all the people at the fringes of that team. They tried to add and change. Is it as simple as the goaltending problem didn't get fixed?

What is your sort of short form autopsy on this Edenton Oilers group? Yeah, I think the Band-Aid is the goaltending. So you could say, like, if you had a better goaltending, you'd better be able to mask the other issues that certainly exist. Look, I think about the team that went to game seven against Florida, this version of it isn't close to as deep or as good. And McDavid was hurt, and obviously that is a huge factor in all this. Drysettled just come back from injury. Who knows if he was 100%? Probably not. Dickinson was banged up. Like, those things are real, but also exist with other teams. I just looked to, guess you just signed a big extension today. That had to be on purpose. That had to be on purpose.

That had the real purpose. I know, the timing of that one stings. And you know what? I think they got great value for him. Like, I think he'll outperform that contract. So him, Broberg, McLeod, Fogel, you just go down the list of guys that left and who's come in and they haven't been as good across the board, right?

And then the goaltending thing, I know it's tough. It's obviously tough to try to fix that. But I also look at what Colorado did. They were bold. They went out and understood who can come into our system in the way that we play and be effective. Not who's a Hall of Famer to be necessarily, but who can win in our structure in our system. And in the span of a couple weeks, in the middle of a season, they flipped both their goalies. And they just won the Jennings Trophy this year.

Dan Vladar in Philadelphia, why has that worked? Alex Lyon and Buffalo, why is that worked? These are the things I'd be looking at to try to find someone like that who can help stabilize a position that's been obviously an area of weakness for them. Last one for me, Mike, and you mentioned Colorado there. Another heavyweight tilt in the central with the wild advancing fast Dallas. I mean, I guess Colorado will be favored in that series. But to me, the wild look like live dogs.

What do you make of that series? Yeah, I favor Colorado too. And Minnesota's no pushover. Like, it was great what they did. They obviously scored Dallas heavily at five on five. Colorado's power play. I still believe in it, but it hasn't been good for a while. I do think there'll be a correction there. So, like, I favor Colorado.

I haven't dug super deep into that one yet being here in Montreal without wrapping up last night. But, man, Quinn Hughes changes everything for that team, doesn't he? And Matt Boldie, like, build me a playoff forward. And it's going to look a lot like Matt Boldie. Caprisov's a beast. Faber had a huge series. So it's going to be awesome. Like, anytime you get a series with top teams with start.

stars everywhere. It makes it a lot of fun to watch. I hope it goes seven. Yeah, no, that would be a good one. And then Carolina, Philly, the last one on deck. You know, I was so wrong about Ottawa because I thought they could really give Carolina a good push and they never even had a lot of years.

You were wrong, buddy. I picked them to go to the final. I think I may have been more wrong. You were, thank you for taking a little of pain. Yeah, you're welcome. But I wonder if Philly's more like what Ottawa, at least I thought they could be against Carolina, because post-Olympics, Philly is completely dominated the transition game up and back.

They don't allow anything that way. And Carolina's got other ways to beat you. But the Flyers' neutral zone game is so impressive. And Pittsburgh scored the second most goals off the rush this season. And Philly just took it away for the most part. Carolina scored the most, right? So now, again, they can do it in other ways. But you've got that battle again.

And Philly just won it against Pittsburgh. So at the very least, I expect more than four games, which I was very wrong about in the first round. No kidding. Well, Kells, thank you very much for taking time to join us today. Enjoy the game tonight. Looks like fun. All right. Thanks, guys.

Cheers. Thanks. That's Mike Kelly Hockey analyst at NHL Network and Director of Analytics and Insights for Sport Logic. So I was watching that wild game last night. And, God, Faber and Hughes together. Quarterline unfair. Gross. Boldly's also like my favorite player.

How many teams would both those guys be the best defensemen on? Yeah. No, it's awesome. They're amazing to watch. But that play where Quinn Hughes 100% shot it off the skate in purpose. Did we get him to verbally any confirmation on that? That was, but I don't need it. But there is a guy kind of behind the pile.

He could be slack passing it to. Ripped it off the skate. I'm not opposed to the idea. I have tried to shoot it off a demon before. I know the brain can go there. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. Crazy.

So he's, yeah, he's decent. That series is, you talk about superstars and just teams that have played against each other. And here's the thing, like, for Canadian hockey fans listening,

American hockey fans listening, a ton of the guys who played for America and played for Canada. Like, you mean, you think of the two stars for the wild, Faber, Hughes, Boldie, McKinney, McCar. Like,

there's, no, but those two teams, it's almost like, I'm rooting for, Oh, you're seeing Canada and Colorado. Okay, okay. Like, I'm seeing, like, I can't have, like, Bill Garan's team.

Trump's going to show up in a Minnesota Wild sweater tomorrow. Beat Joe Sackick's team with the two Canadian studs on it. Like, I'm really rooting for the Colorado album to that series. I can't believe how hard you just swung me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Tampa Bay thing is something I want to go back to.

We have a clip of Cooper in talking about first round exits. This is a This Tampa team is coming to I don't know if they're coming to a crossroads But they're getting older And you get to a point where every year You spend to get better Just like Edmonton just like the Leafs did for a while

And it's like if they don't find a way through here They're in some trouble so I'm curious to see what Cooper had to say Yeah Cooper uh Derek Cooper clip one on their first round exits Of late And so let's be honest I don't know who is like the percentage of winning a Stanley Cup when you start the year for something, I think at the high, it's like 8%.

And for some teams that just snuck into the playoffs, I'm sure it was way less than that. Do we have an analytics guy here that would tell us that? But am I far off on that, Mikey? It's super hard to win. And you get here and everybody's like, well, how come you're not

to, yeah, because the chances are you winning are like slim. And, but you have to start, like, you have to start giving yourself a chance. We give herself a chance by making the playoffs. We're not giving ourselves a chance when we get bumped in the first round. And we have of late, which has been unusual for us. That's not been our MO for a long time prior to the last couple years. And so I think, you know, you call it scar tissue.

I call it anger. I call it, like, urgency. There's so many different ways you can say this. But, yeah, I think it's like look in the mirror time for, I'm included in that. It's not just that core group. You know, I consider myself that core too. And so, yeah, we got to look in the mirror here.

When he looks in the mirror, does he see a reflection of him wearing a Maple Leafs Quarter Zip in it? I don't think so. Go ahead. What do you think of that? First time hearing Cooper, you know, I'm Team Cooper. Yeah, yeah. Coup's my guy.

But it's one of the first times I've heard a Cooper clip where he's waxing philosophical and gone. Poetic. He doesn't have it here. He doesn't have it here. Like, to me, Remember when the Milwaukee Bucks lost and Janice was like, is it really failure? I forget how he framed it, but he tried to be like, is it actually failure to do what I've done or whatever?

And it was like, well, it was a really good answer, but it was like, but she didn't win. You didn't win. So he did. It is failure. And that's kind of how I feel about what Kup just did there. Like, it's really hard to win. It's like, yeah, okay. That's something you can say.

You're still not winning. Two cups. Yeah. Right? Like if whoever the coach of Toronto Maple Leaf said that when they're down three, two in the first round. And they were like, yeah. It's hard to win. It's hard.

You got an 8% chance. Yeah. Because that we're here, everyone should be lauding me with praise. Exactly. I don't know. I just, you know, me and coo, but it's a mostly. It's so funny, though, that you would, like, take him here in two seconds. You just...

I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. It would wear thin. It's just, like, there's so much more to decode because he's so thoughtful.

Like, Barubi's been a lot of... Can we get somewhere in the middle of those? Yeah. Between grunts and poetry? Can we get some. in the middle of those, please. Yeah, I don't think that's too much to ask. I do kind of want to hang on to some of the oiler stuff.

Okay. For the back half, but we do have some clips, and we might as well touch on it here just because I know we're going to do tax and stuff in the back half, the second hour. If we're going to play one clip from McDavid from last night, let me get my sheet here. Let's play the clip one,

the one that everyone's kind of talking about. Clip one, please. What was it about your game that you guys? You found it in sports, but you just couldn't maintain it, I guess. What did you see? I mean, it's been the whole year. I've been searching for consistency all year.

Obviously, we didn't find it here in the playoffs. Yeah, why, I mean, it seems like it goes back to game one. It's been all year searching, search and searching. Any way to put your finger on, how come it was so hard to find the overall game this season? That was tough. We were an average team all year. You know, an average team with high expectations,

you're going to be disappointed. that, you know, they just never found it. Average team all year. They finished with 93 points. He's right, though. They were in a dog-crap division, and if they were in any other division, they would have been way more in trouble than that.

I wonder if you averaged out the points from every team in the NHL. It's got to come to somewhere around 93. I would think, you know, he's not wrong. You know, we did a lot of the thing this year where they'll get healthy, they're going to find it, they'll get a good goalie, and it just didn't happen.

the end you go maybe it just wasn't there. Do you think any of that is at management? Yeah. I mean, I don't know, did you hear biz on TMT last night? Yeah. He nailed it. Yeah. I really...

I actually think that was the best biz segment I've ever heard. Agreed. When I listened to it, because I woke up and I was kind of looking through stuff, I was like, damn, I was kind of going to go with that today. But they did. They failed them. Like, I mean, look at the last three years. Basically, since Stan Bowman took over.

It's kind of been a disaster. And they've kind of been propped up by the fact that McDavid and Drysidal and, you know, Hyman to a lesser extent and all these other guys, Bouchard's been unbelievable and, you know, Ryan, but outside of that, it's kind of been, I guess, for his words, average. Yeah, you know. And those guys are just so far above that they kind of pull everybody up. And when they don't pull everybody up and the goal is don't make any saves, you'll lose and six to the ducks. Jeff Jackson took over at one point there. And I don't know if they had Bowman yet. but it was 2024, July 1st.

He signed eight free agents. Sign, sign, sign, sign. It was Arvidsen. It was Skinner. Jeff Skinner and this whole list of guys. And then they didn't have enough money for Broberg and Holloway. And since then, by the way, of the eight guys, he signed two guys left in the organization,

Josh Brown, who didn't play a game for him this year. And I don't remember what it is, but it ain't great. We'll get more Bowman with Doug. Yeah, we're going to get a lot more into the Edmonton Oilers and their season. and all that stuff. When we come back, we're going to be joined by Doug McLean

without Nick Kiprios. We'll see how this goes. See you in the next hour.