Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: 3rd Period Heroics

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

JD Bunkis joins Justin Bourne and Sam McKee with Nick Kypreos away to look back over the Leafs' 3-2 win over the Florida Panthers on Wednesday, clinching a spot in the postseason. They get into the stakes of the win, Mitch Marner's role in playoff-style games, third-line concerns and how the lineup changes when Max Pacioretty returns. Then, they evaluate Craig Berube's season with the Leafs and how he compares to former bench boss Sheldon Keefe. Later, they discuss Patrick Roy's scathing post-game comments on Anthony Duclair and Brad Marchand's muted role in Florida.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in to Real Kipper and Born. I am Justin Born. I am joined today by not Real Kipper, who sent me a text today that he's in St. Lucia, maybe? Anyway, he's just wherever he wants to be. He's not here. I'm joined today by the great JD Bunkus. Bunk, what's up? Ami McKee, of course, on my other side. Kipper, when I come in, like, or do you just like hope he doesn't find out?

No, it's like cheating, you know, you just like hope he doesn't pick up any clues. We were actually somewhat concerned about him today. Because usually, even when he's on vacation, he sends a great game with six exclamation marks. Marner scored a huge goal and we got nothing. Like there was zilch. And I was like, we had talked about it

10 minutes before he texted us. And we thought he was in Florida. Turns out he's at Cabot St. Lucia somehow so I literally said to Sam he is really into the Leafs it's not like a fake thing like to hear nothing I was like I actually hope he's okay I haven't heard from him so that's what makes him great no comment could you what's that he cares cares yeah because so much of it is well you know those some fakers out there there's a few fakers who fake hey listen he's not a faker who fakes I have a few fake nights over the year you're forgiven a few times I think you're waiting for the time where it

will mean less do you did you think by this age that you might know I think that there's like I'm kind of embarrassed about it it still means so much to me yeah that it's just like I'm watching March Madness and I care so much about these games and I'm watching Leafs games and hockey in general and I'm just so invested in sports still to this day. I'm like so excited that the Masters is coming. I know.

And I'm like, I don't know if this is supposed to be what you're doing at this age. I feel like you're supposed to have, like aren't you supposed to be learning how to, you know, build a carburetor for a classic car? You know, I actually asked, I remember asking one of my musical friends in high school, Like aren't you supposed to be learning how to you know build a carburetor for a classic car? You know, I actually asked I remember asking one of my musical friends in high school I said do you think I'll outgrow rap like do you think that when I'm a 40 year old man? I'll be like not into rap and I was like 38 and being pretty into rap. Yeah, and I was like

I don't think I'm ever gonna not be in a rap. I'm 42 now. Yeah, I might it might be waning I hope that never happens to me because I love the illusion that I'm still young and cool when I was thinking Yeah headphones going around listening to rap. Yeah, it's a great headphone day outside the city of Toronto Perfect. You just feel like you're in a movie walking down the street beautiful You see that Pedro Pascal commercial for new earbuds. No, where he's dancing around town. No, he's got the new airpods You gotta get those new ear. No, I'm saying like that was me. Oh, he's got universal popularity, but that was me today in the sunshine Rose I didn't I thought about not coming here I was like I'm just gonna stop on a patio and send you guys a picture and be like I make it

I totally would have got it Yeah Now part of the reason everyone's vibes are so good Toronto Maple Leafs wins last night They beat the Florida Panthers in let's just say it a big spot yeah that was a big spot this is division on the line you know there's some pressure with Florida on a back-to-back there without Ekblad there without Kachuk and Barkov you're supposed to win that game you're in a big this I would say typically is a spot where over the last few years the Leafs would just let us down I Did you take anything from last night from them not letting us down?

Can I give you an actual hot take with that? Buddy, it's why you're here. I think that that was more important to beat them missing those guys and being in a back-to-back than it would have been had it been like the full Florida team. God, I love that. We joked about it when we left the studio like don't show them that Barkov isn't playing. Don't tell them. You don't want them to know because as soon as they have any reason that it's gonna be any easier over this whole era

It has gone poorly and is that it for you? Well, it's it's a couple of different factors. One is that These guys are chokers who choke They have choked every which way. Oh many times they it's they live to choke They've had George Bush and pretzels. Games, games to close series at home. No. Beat the Montreal Canadiens one time. One, just do it one time.

Over the next three games, they're like, no. They're the meme of the Lord of the Rings guy that refuses to throw the ring and then it gets the whole thing going After the first war that meme beat the Columbus Blue Jackets Absolutely, not that's a choke to me. You were favored. That was the Columbus Blue Jackets gonna beat that team sure Could and so for me if you're like this year's all about tests in the regular season is a test, right? So what test does this team pass? And when you're in a huge spot where it's the must-win of all must-wins I actually kind of think that the pressure on them sort of amplified the more bodies were out of the lineup for Florida

Mm-hmm because Florida is gonna get you know, even more desperate caged animal game where they're saying hey You don't think we can win. Yeah, we get the nobody believes in us factor You're the ones who have everything to prove in this spot. And then what happened? Marner scores Matthews is physical. He's like knocking people over. Tavares scores another beautiful goal. Nylander sets him up on a beautiful play and just making plays all night long looks incredible. Their goaltender who has not played in any big games plays

in his biggest game and passes every test with flying colors protecting a lead in the third period where it's like if he lets in a leaky goal, what's the conversation today? And so to me, it's like you're a choker until you aren't. Habits take time to break. They go trying to take steps. I don't know what that was. Oh, you did some drops here and there.

Yeah, I wasn't ready for that. I know you weren't. I could tell. You have to pass these like choker, and they haven't had regular season stretches where any of it has mattered. Here was a test. You passed it. And I think... Good. Check. Yeah, and I think particularly,

because the test they may face in the first round, if this goes well, and last night was a big step to making it, is going to be a choker test. Yeah. Because you could draw the Ottawa Senators, who, if you're a Sens fan fan you love that that is the situation You're entering the series, but it will be You're supposed to win this series. You're supposed to be the better team

You know where the Marner thing is like especially important to write up Do you think that okay? Everybody cared about four nations in this country? But do you think there was a player with more pressure than Mitch Marner in that tournament? No, I don't. Well, because it's factually correct. Yeah. You think Connor McDavid even though there was like a little bit of the hey, he can't win the big one stuff that American media likes to do with him that is not like aware of insane thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say there's probably more pressure on Bennington. I think so because I mean, everyone crapped all over Bennington and said he shouldn't be the starter and then high pressure high pressure goalie for Canada is more pressure

than on Marner no question he could have lost his job but in terms of like Bennington one he's already a Stanley Cup champion for sure and two is that when he goes back to st. Louis you think that st. Louis would have been having major conversations about Bennington and also let me say something that's insane to sort of further your point here which if Marner was terrible in the four nations. It goes terrible. You know one to assist There were some moments there were some moments where you thought it might be the game It wasn't going about how much it flared up But if you were terrible all the way through the tournament it just ends when the Olympics come around next year

There would have been a lot of people saying I don't care if he's fifth in the league And he can't play in these big games So that pressure amplified it too and he answered the bell That's it So the answering of these bells and last night being another one for nations being one It feels like so I wrote an article today for the website where I said There could be a version of Marner Where I can see how it works in playoffs.

He's never going to look like the guy he looks like against Columbus in November when he dominates and he has the puck the whole night, two goals, four assists. It's never going to look like that in playoffs. The teams are too good, they're too hard on him. But there's a version of him where he's just around it and he keeps at it and keeps at it and he's so talented that eventually a seam opens up and he hits Knives with that pass or McDavid with that pass. And let's say he's not gonna be dominant, but he can chip in a goal and an assist in a big spot.

All of a sudden, I don't need him to be. Matthews, we need him to control the puck, control the play. Marner could just contribute some points and people will be happy. So I think your guys show is that it's best when there are disagreements Passionate disagreements. Yes, but that's funny cuz I hate that I know you do but that's why especially knowing you I love it Because it forces you to actually do it. Yeah, you get pushed into a position where you try Yeah, be passive. You are the last guy on earth that wants to fight with someone

Yeah, I've had many times where you and I have tried to debate something and you just completely bow out and I'm like yeah I said something very similar last night on Lee's talk that Marner sort of gave a little bit of the script for him which is be defensively responsible be dangerous on the power play right because this story of the season by the way with the power play is right? Because the story of the season, by the way, with the power play is, yeah, Mark Subardis, there's a lot of credit. The players all deserve a lot of credit. Story of season is that Mitch Marner running things from up top

and being a credible shot option who also sees the ice perfectly and makes decisions within an instant has completely changed the dynamic of this group. And like you can point you can pinpoint it to when this power play became the best. The NHL. Funny that everyone's like they don't have a number one D, they can't have someone run the power play and it's like, ah, good news. Yeah. You can do it.

So last night, I thought the exact same thing. This is what is going to come down for you. There's so much of a discussion always with playoffs about like process versus results and whether you get the bounces or not. No one has ever needed the bounces to go correctly more than Marner this postseason. Everything is going to be judged on the bounces. I don't care if you looked good on the penalty kill and you're making good reads, like obviously it matters, like to help keep the puck on the internet awesome.

I don't care if you're cycling the puck around and you're having the Montreal series where you got the chances. I care if you got the finishes. And that's it for him is those few moments where he gets those plays like he did in Team Canada in the championship game like he did last night with the Leafs if he's able to convert those things He completely flips the narrative from what a lot of people feel like it's going to eventually become and if I'm Kipper sitting here Sorry, I'll let you in one sec. If I'm Kipper here that the point I'm making is that he maybe part of this has been that they haven't had the guys with him because you know, when you dish it to

McDavid in front of that and he shoots it in great when you dip that dish that the bunting maybe it doesn't go in and that's you know, he it's nice nice might change that line where he can make place to someone else who can help put away some of those chances and we mentioned this a little bit last night, but the way he reacted after he scored that goal in the third period of that game was a playoff style celebration and needed it. And we're talking about these checkpoints and that feels, I mean, not to read too much

into it, but that's another checkpoint passed here. And another thing is that they haven't played any of these meaningful games in the regular season. It's been either Tampa or Boston known in November known in November and Him doing that these guys know what the narrative is around them They understand it and it's like to have these delivery moments and feel good It you know, it's never gonna until they get to the playoffs. We're never gonna be able to be like, okay It's changed. Yeah, but there are at least we're never gonna be able to be like, okay, it's changed. But there are at least glimmers.

There's hints or like little bit of glimmer that it is gonna be different. Am I allowed to say that? Yeah, it's fascinating to me too, watching them last night and seeing the way that they won this game because we've spent so much time talking about secondary scoring, secondary scoring. And while it's not down the lineup, you're right. It's up the lineup now. They have nice now they've been man

They've never had better secondary scoring to those top four guys It's just not in the places where we expected it to be which is the third line Yeah, and that was like part of though. We're gonna get lot and we're gonna get whatever Yeah, that has not turned into an offensive line That has turned into a line that does what to you? Well, you'll be interested to read is to read my article today where I make literally the case where I just said and I Said it mostly about Domi where? You know it and I've said on the show but like he's not defensive last night

By the way, he blows his coverage and they end up in a two-on-one against they Get a backdoor pass. That's his guy Samus gave it Wide open net right now, you know So like he's not defensive and he doesn't like hit cuz he's not like big So he wants to be up good on the for check not so he wants to be offensive So he's trying to like sauce it through people and he's turn it over and it's like I know he's talented You can do some things other people can't do, but it doesn't. I don't know the utility of that line.

That's exactly it. We spent all season long really focused on identity, right? And there was a point during the least losing streak where I was asking, what is the identity of the team exactly? Now it's come into focus, right? Their team that defends in front of their own net, like they take away the easier, they will let you shoot as much as you want Like they're a shooting gallery every night. They're essentially they're out shot

It's like they're gonna probably lose every single deserve to win. Oh meter throughout the postseason run Because the Islanders team that went to the conference final they were the same way they're like shoot it We think we've got a big old monster back there That's gonna be able to handle the softies and if it's not him It'll be the other guy and we feel great about him too. We're going to take away the front of the net and our big dogs are going to score a ton of goals because there is so much talent in the top six. We feel as though if we play a tight game, when we get our chances, they're going to

be materially better than the ones that you are creating for yourself. But when it comes to the bottom six, it has just about zero identity. I think that you've seen a little bit of it from the fourth line when they've run this group out there, which is why I thought it was kind of fascinating that they finally made the Robertson decision because it felt like they were picking a lane to say, no, it's gonna be more balanced this third line. There's gonna be balance to this. It's not gonna be about offense, which it clearly is when you have Domi and Robertson because it's not a defensive line. It's not a two-way line. So what are you? You're an offensive line. When they stopped producing and they stopped generating,

you go, well, you can't have this because you're giving up too much the other way. So we've decided to lean towards balance. But the balance hasn't been there. Domi gets his chances, and I think that from an optics standpoint last night, he had some jump, he created a few chances from the slot. But in terms of the way that they want to play, which is dump it in and chase it, and

like what's he going to do with that part of it? It's like no, he's a puck possession guy. That's the only game that he really knows how to play. With all due respect, that is his game. And then you're playing him with two other guys where what exactly did they do offensively like Kelly Yarncrook and Scott Lawton. But the one thing with those two. It is fascinating they're still playing him at center. At Dolmi at Center, Lawton on the wing. It really yeah I mean we've brought this up multiple times on various shows but the fact that he's

still not like he's tried to get rid of Dolmi at center and multiple different occasions and now that they actually trade for a third line center type of guy and they still won't put them there over Domi who has a ton of warts Defensively which the line is supposed to be Okay, I think there might be a disagreement on what they thought like a manager and the coach I got really do of course there is really manager deemed that he was worth the first round Yeah, but like but just and the coach put him on the fourth Line playing left wing which was like he's crazy Ryan Reeves I know the whole camp here

They scratch camp to put him in but I just I don't know why they won't go back to him at the center of that line Right at least have the speed on the wings a little bit long why dive down because they don't think lot is very good Well and only that so this again gets back to the identity of third line Normally you'd say Scott Lawton, what are you supposed to be? If you're a defensive center, are you going to win a D-zone draw? No, he's not a good faceoff guy. And like you just look at the way Borubei deploys his centermen. I don't think he wants to put a left-handed guy out there who doesn't win faceoffs and

then has them in the D-zone with Max Domi beside him and Kelly Yarncroke behind him. So you're gonna put him in the offensive zone? He can't win draws so then you're losing possession there too. It's like it's just the criticism people had of Lawton that before he came to Toronto was he's probably best on the wing but he hasn't been able to be like like an impact player on the wing because he sort of lost in terms of what exactly it is that they're supposed to be doing which is why you could see the fourth line thing where they're like simplify it simplify it but it really begs this question which i was talking about today on my show with chris forstieg did craig berube just did he screw this up because

is it all on scott laughton that he hasn't performed or is this also on the coaching staff for bringing a guy in and then immediately changing what was going to be asked of him within a couple of games and then jerking him around the lineup and putting him with different guys and Basically if you're talking about a script for a guy to fail, yeah, this is sort of it. Yeah. Yeah And listen, I think if you're Craig Berube you say my priorities are us winning. Yeah, it's not making Scott Lawton the best player I can. Now I do think that that's unfair to him initially, and he should have been given some run beside one of the two duos in the top six just to see if he can make it work.

But you know, he has something in common with Domi, which is Lawton was an offensive guy when he was young and came into the league to be an offensive guy. Domi came into the league to be an offensive guy. And both of these guys have that little the Leafs have had on their fourth line for years with Spezza and Thornton and all these you know sort of veteran guys who former great offensive players that you're being asked to not do it. They still want to do it.

If they're hard they still will be like okay. But I am the guy who does the backhand against Anaheim like that's a max Domi right and so for Lawton the commitment to full defense I don't know if it's it's happened yet I the one thing I hold out hope for in that line is both Yarncroc and Lawton are better players than they've been this season like over the past few years there have been better versions of them at times if they're both better at the right time Yarncroc starting to skate a little bit better can lot and find it at the Same time in the third line be something. There's just I guess I just watched too much

Yarn croc yeah It's just like I just know exactly what it's gonna look like and like there's been what he scored five playoff goals and a hundred Playoff games that he's played. It's just It's not you tie. I just yes exactly. He's a space filler who doesn't cost you. That's all Sure, just get us through a shift So we can get the top guys rested, but I've kind of flipped from to your point being Getting lot and going like early in his career with the leases get him going get him up with and now I just feel like wow You can't get now you can't now catch 22 with this team It's gone now top six is so good that you can no longer really make the case

McMahon has changed the second line. That's what I'm saying is that weirdly the great success of that line Has changed the potential for what I thought was going to eventually be what could be best for the group and on its whole Which was to have Nylander try to drive his own line because the way that Nylander is playing right now I don't think that is so good last night. He's amazing. Yeah, he was again their best player. I Don't think that you could play him with just about anybody and not have the line be effective Yeah, I think he more than any other guy in the team Maybe Matthews could take whatever you gave him and make situationally independent

But yeah, Nylander did that for long stretches of this year He played with homework with Humbert and and when did Homburg look his best with with him? Yeah, yeah He had some moments in the top six playing with with Tavares and Willie when they were searching for that winger for them They put they put Homburg there. But yeah, I think the the conversation about oh, you know You got to maybe try some different stuff before the playoffs and I think that's gone It's way gone. It just it looks way too good to have that conversation at all Well, the only other thing I'll say is so last game Robertson's out and who else did they have out for fours?

Oh patch already still out. Yeah with patch already back in If you did Lawton and the Senate and Center so patch already Lawton yarn croc, where does Domi play? That's like a scratch Domi well, that's the conversation. Yeah, but there's not gonna happen Why is that the team's gonna scratch the the like next? Hey hide pace forward out of trying to build the best lineup I can and not only that like I actually don't think Domi has been a like real problem spot for them. I Think that he's frustrating in the ways that you mentioned again. He's not a perfect player He's not going to have games. He can't give you something that no one else can down there. He's you that's it

Yeah, you can actually score and listen. I mean he great goal in Sanaheim He punches up the dude in Vegas like he Was Florida after hammering for Hagee then he punched up Yeah, like he can do something once every Hagee then he punched up yeah like he can do something once every few games so you're right I just think there's way more X factor upside and a Domi then to a max patch okay also yeah can can I have the patch ready conversation with you guys yes so everyone's doing the same thing that they did with yarn croak but now with patch ready right which is like

they're missing a clear NHL player, and everyone's looking at that and like dreaming on the guy and thinking about him as though he's something he isn't. And this happened with Jarncroak. People kind of looked at him and said, boy, when they get him back, that's like a real NHL player who can be additive to this team.

Hey, you say whatever you want about him, he's better than Ryan Reeves, right? And so you were thinking like, wow, that upgrade could actually have some significance with this team. But so far're thinking like, wow, that upgrade could actually have some significance with this team. But so far, the same thing with him has remained true, which is like, yeah, he's additive to a degree, but he's not in any which way a driver and you're going to have to look for

him. He's addition by subtraction of someone not as effective. For sure. But with Patcheretti, the idea that this guy is going to step into a playoff lineup, like he got a contract where they were like hey We need if you play 35 games will give you more money And it's hard for him to get there What are the odds that he's gonna be able to stay healthy if this team was to advance into oh no one round?

Yes, it's not but what you're gonna. You're gonna scratched on me. Oh, no, no, no, I'm not scratch I know you're not Having from on the left wing of the fourth line and hope that he turns into Raffy Torres again for a week and a half And you just hammer somebody but you absolutely cannot do that because the worst part about his game is when he's in the D zone So you're saying we're gonna try to win a D zone draw and then he's got to be the one to go I'll be on the third line. Yeah, and so, you know then you're looking at like Lawton you paid for they're gonna use Lawton They're gonna give him a chance to find it. So you're looking at like patch already I think it's more likely that Domi still stays in the center with patch already on his left wing and yarn croc on his right

And then long that they put Lawton back on the fourth line in Canfler ends. Yeah, and Holmberg doesn't get in Yeah, that sounds probably right. You know, I if you're asking me like what's more realistic i think it's that the fourth line and i was saying this to sam i went through like teams that have won the cup recently and their fourth lines and the success the leafs have a line that can be a cup winning fourth line like camp florence last year it was lorence nick cousins and kyle oposo this is show, right? This is three guys who are all higher on camp than when he is. Yeah. Yeah. Camp gives a lot of unnecessary hate.

The camp guy. Because he makes like 300K more than he should. That's exactly it. If you didn't know what he made, you'd be like, this guy's effective. I think there's a great case to be made that, you know, could you do, could he play more? I even think that that might be your third line

if you're talking about like, Patcherade, or sorry, Lawton, Camp, Lawrence, like however we write it up. Well, that's what I thought it that that might be your third line if you're talking about like patcher or sorry lot in camped Lawrence like however we write it up. Well that's what I thought it was going to kind of be when it was Nick Robertson on the third line where it was essentially two bottom lines to yeah two bottom lines to depending on what the game script is you're changing chasing it. It's these guys you're defending it. Have a seat Nick. You know I think you might be right.

You may see the third line play eight minutes in a game where they're leading early. You may see the third line play eight minutes in a game where they're leading early. You may see the fourth line play eight minutes in a game they're chasing, because you're rolling out Domi. But I do think Robertson will play in the playoffs. Like you'll see him in games when they lose two to one or something. We need more offense.

And it'll be the crescendo of scratch and score nickname. Like if he gets a big playoff goal. And he will, he's going to shoot it in the net I scores a playoff goal what's the date April 3rd book it I don't know that we really would be like I said I'm not I'm pretty proud of that you'll score the second you'll score the second goal in a 6-2 loss the Ottawa Senators also I don't know if you know but like this like maybe different audience but yeah so I've called him scratch and score because like Amazing he gets scratched and he comes in and then he scores them second half of back-to-back against the Sharks the Sharks

I think he has no stakes Nick He scored a lot of Scratch and so if you really believe in scratch and score Hmm, then that is kind of the perfect situation that you're deciding to do it in, which is, hey, playoff game where you need some more offense, it's him. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's inspired and he comes in like he's, you know, a man on fire. It's like, I got to prove that I belong in the lineup and hopefully he shoots one in. And you know, the way these playoff games have gone over the past few years, like every game in the first round last year was two, one or three, two. You don't need four from them. You need one at like a certain time of a game. That's just like a clutch time. You know what, though?

What I think what we're all kind of just circling around on, though, is that is that that kind of same point, which is we're always going to talk about secondary scoring with this group because the big guys haven't been able to dominate. But this time around, to me, the most, this is the least amount of excuses you have from secondary scoring because Knives and McMahon exist. Like, your secondary scoring isn't going to be the way that you build it traditionally with a hockey team.

You're just going to have to lean on these guys to do it. Like, the secondary scoring has to be McMahon and Knives, and you can't count that as well. Those are the top guys Yeah to Sam's point you're just trying to get to three Yeah, if you get to three here, you should at least be in overtime Yeah, you know, you're just trying to get to three and they haven't been able to do that Is it 14 straight games that where we're at? I forget. Oh, oh, no There's a bunch of games in a row where they scored two

Yeah, and they managed to win a couple they won an overtime one another even better students be able to do it. Yeah, right They are and that's something you mentioned was the net front thing We actually have a Ruby clip on competing at the net play it Let's drop that up to like for me when I watch it, you know You know watch it again, but live The the net front was key. We were hard around our net We didn't give up the second and third chances. Like, yeah, they got a chance,

but we were right at the net with numbers and competed there and that's important. I was just trying to track down Mike Kelly's Twitter feed because he had a tweet during the Kings game or after the Kings game where he said, arenas should have quality shots listed too because shots were like 3626 LA, and slot shots were 179 Toronto.

You know, and that's what they- Yeah, the old retired guy wearing a suit that does that, they should be like, hey, do the quality ones now too. Hey Jimbo! Yeah, I know it's not. How hard is it to pay for whatever tracking sites have it? Yeah, I know, but you're right. They could definitely do it.

No, you're right. They should do it especially because it's friendly to them Oh, yeah the Leafs. Yeah, that's what I'm saying Game they put OPS up instead of batting average like oh, it's the future Pitches though. They have a lot of numbers Right, what's that? Too much. Yeah, it's too much too much. I love it I mean a vertical drop on a page. Well, I don't know what it means,

but I'd rather have it than not. I look at it, I'm like, that's it. On my third Bud Light, I'm like, what does that mean? I know what a percentage is up there. Buddy, I am all for more things that get you talking in the seats.

Sure, sure. To go, what is this? Sure, for sure. And then you say it, and you just chat about it with whoever you are in the seat. But, yeah, it's fair enough But I think that clip we just played from Borubei is actually one of the sneaky things that I've noticed about this team And that gives me a little bit more hope you think about the last time they lost to the the Panthers in that game

I don't know how long ago that was where Sam Bennett scores two goals literally standing in the blue paint where he's just jamming them away and it's just like supposed to have been ejected or something by that in the playoff in the regular season that was right he committed an assault on Matthew Nizer he punched him to the ice and of course as usual gets away with murder every game actually quickly one of his like patented moves and they punch in the head and the sneak punch yeah but he just they had so much in front of the net and they allowed it and last night They did not allow that no secondary attempts

Carlo to me has been such a huge addition for that because he's not nasty but good for him for fighting that other guy But he stands there. He's huge He's in the way Tana's really good in front of the net McCabe's really good in front of that all recommend Larson's nasty in front of the net like the guys that they have added Have really made a difference in the battles in front of the net where like like Berube said in that clip It's the one in Dunn's you're not standing. You're not guys aren't standing there whacking away whacking away Stollers grabs it They're cross checking or it comes out they get it out. It's just going a little punch. Yeah, I just see fella I'm glad that he brought that up because it's something I've

noticed with this team that the net front battles have been way better than years past or how many goals have you seen the give up in big spots where it's just a guy standing in the blue paint no one box them out hammering at home it drives you crazy it's been way better Ben was good at it too not a lot not great at a lot of other things but he's great at that so all I can think of listening to that clip is how little I've actually listened to BrewBase. Oh, we listen to it every day. I know you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm saying that, yeah, I'm really impressed that you're able to get content out of it.

Can I tell you the funniest thing that we don't do on this show that Sam says is he calls him Sheldon Chief off the air because it's the same stuff. It's like positive yeah except the one difference was and I had this feeling who was it that he crushed the other day at the podium oh yeah it could we played it because it was shocking that he was mean to any even hard on anyone oh my god it's the devil's defenseman that Kovacewicz Kovacewvich. Kovacevich just has to play better and then walks off. Yeah. The one thing I love about Sheldon Keefe was every once in a while...

Psycho Snap Show. Snap. And he would say stuff. And the only thing that I hated about what he would do in those situations was not that he'd say it. It's that he'd always be walking it back the next day. And I thought that that was always such a screw up on his part. It's going, hey man, stay with your chest and stand on it. If there are times where you genuinely believe you screwed up, that's fine.

Do it in private with that person. Just say, hey, I went a little too far. You're fair to tell. I've got an office. You can come by if you're bothered. But you're supposed to be a grown ass man who plays professional sports. You should be able to handle me Snappin once in a while and also when you have trust with somebody like that, I'm a little like that.

What's that? I can snap. No. Yeah. Is that right? I can say things every once in a while that I don't mean. Never seen it. But for people that know me you understand that

eventually we're just gonna be able to come and kind of hash out whatever that is. Right. And there's going to be a cool moment and I don't mean like a it's cool. Cool down. It's cool bro. It's cool bro. It's such a cool moment. It's that we'll have a cool down moment together and things will probably actually be better from that than anything. And with Keef, I just thought it was really strange that he felt so like if it's it was indicative to me that he wasn't

As tight with those guys that you think given that he did have to publicly walk it back instead of those guys just going like Hey, man, we get it. It's all good It made it feel like he wasn't in full He didn't have full autonomy to do and say what he wanted like with someone telling him he had to walk it back Where the players was it? I think I missed those days where we'd get three days out of content and he's just from just one of these snaps and I have not gotten a single thing from Borubei this year where I've gone we have to play that on it feels like he doesn't care and I know he cares a ton but he's

just like ah we'll get him next but I do I know he cares I do think that there has been some conversation about what you say in the media in terms of them being like don't do it don't do it Remember that was it the Amazon series or whatever that that where they had the conversation Was it do this like the net or the narratives got a control with Matthews when Matthew said we got to open it up Remember that and he's like we the narrative that's out of control It's like they are clearly very conscious of the guy. I hate that you just reminded me that because there's There's like a there's like a mission statement when you walk into the coaches room It's like don't say bleep. Yeah, don't say anything because I mean you love it and

You love being able to talk about it for three days. They don't love it. They hate it Yeah, so I think it's probably probably told Ruby. I mean, but do this is gone Yeah, I know I know was I stole him. I mean, but do this is gone. Yeah, I know I know wasn't all him I mean, there's this guy there's something here that connects everything no doubt no doubt about it for my hair I think that's an interesting read because mine has always actually been that Barube had the Cairo experience and He lost a young player and wants to soft you it

well that part of learning younger guys is that they don't appreciate the criticism as much because it doesn't live in a press clipping that goes away. It lives online where everybody sees it because they all have phones and they check their phones and they see the stuff like and like now you get a reputation as a guy who can't handle the next generation. Yeah. And so you get that. But also secondarily, I guess my more optimistic and hopeful vision of it was

after a conversation I had with Rick Bonus, where he talked about how year two is the year that you really judge a head coach when he comes in, despite the training camp stuff, that's actually not it. It's a year to be able to get your systems in, to be able to get a trust of your players, and then when you come to camp the next year, feeling like all those details that you've tried to refine over the course of a season they really start to show up more in year two. That's the guy who's coached more games than anyone

so when he says it I go yeah yeah yeah I bet you that's true but with Borubay it's like earn the trust in year one don't come in there and be firing brimstone throw guys under the bus. It's the definitely it's the best way to start yeah that's what I mean it is earn trust and then once you have it then you can get more comfortable throwing out the odd barb or being a little bit more of like the quote unquote accountability coach. Like there's been that belief, right? That that's not who he is. He's not Mr. Accountability because he hasn't done it year one. I don't want to live in a world where I'm writing that possibility off in year two. Yeah. Well,

that's something to keep an eye on for sure. I do I want to go into Kyra by the way having a fabulous season Is he oh, yeah, what blue isn't right? No, but like he's I mean, he's got six bad blue All they do is win 32 goals plus 22 this year after being minus 12 last year They're they're a wagon. We're going to talk more about that Uh, you know got some thoughts on patrick waa how that relates to this conversation. We'll get more into it after this break. Everything you need to know about the Raptors and the biggest stories around the NBA. Smith and Jones. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Real Born and Bunk and McK McKee today what a day. Yeah

We're just chatting before we went to break about Handling young players and I know this is not leafsy enough, but it was fascinating watching Patrick Waugh yesterday after the game They asked him about Anthony duclair and he said some horrific things, you know god-awful. He said he was god-awful He's lucky he's in the the lineup like it was really bad So you view that as really bad. I don't yeah, that was in 2025. Yeah. Yeah, like there's 96 fine You can have that conversation with him and you can say he was bad for us tonight God-awful and shouldn't be in the lineup. Yeah I mean you're the coach. Yeah. Yeah, somebody else in right if you don't think you should be in the lineup

But I do think it's fascinating that he said today du Claire was not on the ice of practice du Claire and him had he said Had a great conversation du Claire asked for some time to clear his head about it and left the team or isn't there isn't their practice And was it okay? that to me if that's what happened is Bonkers that you could just tell your coach. I didn't like that you said a bad thing about me. I need some time and just to leave is a crazy thing. Fantastic if Craig Grube said somebody was god awful. God awful.

Yeah, he's fairly in the line. Talk about three days of content. I don't know, I just don't agree at all. I think that it's bizarre that in a world where you have what are supposed to be some of the most highly competitive people on earth, speaking bluntly, that that is in some way over the line. Like when I hear that quote, I don't like, that's nothing to me. No one wants to be shamed publicly, but that is a public position. Yeah. Like

you're in pro sports. Your job, the reason why you get paid millions of dollars isn't because you guys get to play it in your rec league. It's because thousands of people fill the arena every night. To be clear, I have the issue with Duclair saying he needs time away because of it. No, I'm saying I have issues with both like okay also this isn't someone who is like like that's Patrick wah mm-hmm seen a few things he's he's also been known to say sure but I'm just saying that if Patrick wah can't say that who can what are we doing okay yeah that's fair what are we doing here if Patrick Wa of all people on planet Earth can't call you out when you have a tough game? And here's my assumption with stuff like this. Okay, um, I

Think that if a coach is being performative and speaking through the media a lot of the ways that it always felt like with tortorella where there is this like a Element of it that feels very disingenuous and self-serving. And I don't know him. I'm just saying that was always kind of my read on it, where it was like he's trying to keep up a persona of being harsh, and so this is parts of the ways that he does it. I don't like it. I also don't think that if you are a player, like say, DuClair,

and your coach hasn't come to you beforehand and tried to work things out and done a different strategy before Immediately going to just like hey, it's your first bad game and now he's just absolutely crushing you in the media Oh, then I can see you having a problem as a player, but if you are paid again Crazy money. I don't care that it's less than baseball or whatever you're being paid dream money Dream money to play sports and to be competitive and that this sport what makes it great Is that so much of it is you can try harder than the other guy and it will have results in Basketball you could try your ass off. You're never gonna score on LeBron James ever Ever ever ever. Yes does will matter for sure.

But in terms of hockey, why it's so much better in the playoffs is because guys are amping up the will factor. And so if a coach of Patrick was pedigree who is fighting for a playoff spot calls you out in the media, it means that he is at his wit's end. And given his experience as one of the greatest players who's ever stepped foot on an ice surface Deems it fine to do so what I would like to see from Anthony deClaire's he goes Oh damn, this is a wake-up call for me. Yeah, not like I gotta leave for a few days again Is this is a tough situation and we don't know. Yeah, that's

He I mean you can qualify it but he is in the first year of a four-year 14 million dollar contract 3.5 through 20 And he's played 44 games has seven was not going anywhere for assists and he's a dash 15 So in the words of Don Draper, that's the money's for it. I'm sorry. I just yeah I'm not trying to be the old man yells at the cloud thing here But it is painful to believe that not only are you going to get world-class? Everything but that you are you going to get world class everything, but that you are also going to get white glove treatment from people when it comes to their criticisms of you, especially people who have the bona fides, who have the stripes on their jacket to be

able to do so and we're hired to make you a better player. Yeah. Yeah. This is something where often, you know, Kip talks about guys' egos and he wants to say that like, you can't do this and you can't talk about people like that. But I do believe that this is what the coach is for. And that's why having a coach with some, you know, credibility like wah, I think has value. He should be able to do that.

You also want to talk about a guy in the Florida Panthers. If we're going to turn the page on that topic. I just want to say just yeah general. Yeah, yeah that There is a huge difference to me between someone who is just trying to tear you down versus someone who is You know trying working with you trying to get your attention because they want what is best from you And if duclair genuinely believes that was just out there to tear him down Like that happens in pro sports, that happens in life. Some people believe like this guy's out to get me, right?

So I'm not saying that that's not a possibility here. But in general, I think that if we are going to lose that in professional sports, then we're going to lose that just about everywhere. And like there is a value to being blunt and honest and critical of people that you need to have. And you certainly need to have it in an organization or sorry, in a sports of all places where you're trying desperately to get that 1% of a 1% advantage over someone. You know, we're got a dancer on a topic.

You got nothing to zoom out a little bit on sports in general, guys are paid so much money now. They're, you know, like just in general, the amount of dollars that they have, they often now, the balance of authority, that's the wrong word, the balance of who carries the cards, I guess, has changed a bit. Where often the players have longer term and more money than the coach,

and they can say, if one of us is going at AU, I think a guy like Duclaire is in tough spot because he's not that guy. You're not that guy, pal. I'm looking at his seasons before this. I don't know how he got that contract. That was a bad contract. They were desperate for some speed and some... I think it's that dynamic is definitely real what you're talking about. But I think it is also just the infiltration of corporate culture into something that is much larger, which is the reasons that those dollars are there.

And then all of a sudden there are people that are trying to ensure that those dollars are safe. And so some of that culture where it's like, this is a workplace, you can't talk to people that way. It's like, this isn't supposed to be that kind of a workplace. Just let this be something separate because it's been effective.

There's a reason why you bought it. There's a reason why it grew to the place that it's in right now. And it wasn't by being a sanitized version where nobody could speak true to one another. Yeah, no, I think so. And the other thing, just one more note on Juan DuClair. I'm talking about this.

I had had someone point out to me like, Juan DuClair worked together in junior. Like he's had him, he knows him him and this may be the ultimate like I know what makes this guy tick sort of thing I wonder if was surprised by the reaction and how it played out like how that's gonna affect Yeah, or could have gone the other way where declare goes. This is my nightmare This is what I had in jr And yeah, yeah, that's more personal because he feels like he does know him and that he has already been since I don't know I guess he had to take the money too because he got a lot of it

So maybe even regardless of hating the coach is like I'm gonna take that I'm taking the $14 million. Uh Marshand yeah forgot he was on Florida watching him last night. I Had this thought like I would I thought he was noticeable. I saw him a few times You know, I felt like he was a little bit I wouldn't say neutered is the right word, but not the same I saw him a few times. You know, I felt like he was a little bit, I wouldn't say neutered is the right word, but not the same, maybe he should say he doesn't play for the Bruins anymore

and it's not the same feeling towards him or whatever. But I think it's also that, you know, he's a captain of another team, of a blood rival with that team. And he's going into that room and he can joke around about being like, oh, he's a scumbag, ha ha ha ha. But I do think it's gonna take a while for him to sort of be able to find his role on that team.

And like with all those studs that are already there, is there gonna be enough time for Florida to get the A Brad Marshand out of the, it just feels like last night, you know, there's, you just see him on the bench and he's, I don't know, he's got that, not a long stare, but just, I know they're losing or whatever and he's, I don't know, he's got that, not a long stare, but just, I know they're losing or whatever.

It just, it didn't feel the same that it's felt even earlier this season when he's playing with the Bruins where it's like all you ever notice is him. The only- Like I'm not saying he's washed, I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying that it's a very weird dynamic for him playing there. The only pushback to that I'll have is you saw the clips

of him with Canada in the Four Nations team where they weren't a team and he's the one guy who's comfortable being like, I understand that, but that's a completely different scenario. But I'm saying what you're seeing might be physical decline. Sure. It might not be discomfort. It might, he might not be the guy he once was. And I, you know, I did get that vibe with Canada too, where it's like, God, the will's

there and the smart and he sees it. And if it comes to him He's great, but I don't know that he can control the play like he wants it I think I think once the playoffs start it could change. Yeah, there's definitely no question But I mean this is gonna be there's how many more games left of the regular season before it starts He's got to find his role there. Like I've watched them play. He was good in the first game He obviously is really buzz and he sets up the overtime winner for Bennett I just I think it's gonna be an interesting dynamic going to a team of a group of

guys that you absolutely hate and it's just I don't know yeah I think it's weird I think it's really weird um I think that he doesn't care at all that he probably fits in like a glove because every dressing room that he walks into I think that he is loved by people. He's been a leader for a very long time and he was also raised by leaders like Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara. And if you were going to go to like hockey leadership school, you'd like have those guys

be maybe like one would be the headmaster. So I don't have any concerns about his fit with the Florida Panthers. What I think that you might be seeing a little bit of, which again is in a very small sample of a team that's on a back-to-back playing against the Toronto Maple Leafs must win game, is that Brad Marshawn and the Florida Panthers, they don't need to be, you know who actually doesn't care about the playoff matchup?

Them. You know who's just trying to get healthy come playoff time? Them. You know who's getting Aaron Echblad back and who's gonna get Kachuk back, and then who has their captain their stud player Alex Barkov You think if that's a playoff game against the Leafs like he's sitting in that hockey game last night like no

He's a late scratch because they're going Relax these guys are dying for it. Who are we the playoff team? Yeah, we need to watch the way how how quickly we drive this car We are pacing ourselves in this race and then when we get closer to the finish line, which is playoff time, gas, gas, gas, gas, gas. And that is what I'm going to guess is gonna happen with the Florida Panthers. And when they start to put their pedal on the floor,

and Brad Marchand is on that team, now is an X factor with a line that is gonna have Sam Bennett on it, boy, do I think that they are going to be a tough load to handle. Last, oh sorry, last. I do think that there's some risk of the plan of, hey, it'll just come together for us. Sure, but he also doesn't have to, he's not the driver.

No. Like, when you're saying, you know, the team can of stuff and he doesn't fit, it's like, yeah, yeah, he just needs to slot in and be a depth w winger for this team he makes them better yeah no doubt about uh last thing quickly here I had it's a Jen do some homework for me I sent a tweet last night an incendiary tweet about Seth Jarvis scoring his ah yes I saw that and some guy do you want to share the content of that someone dug up an old tweet of mine about Dubas and I just, this is a tough one for me. I'm sorry, Hannah.

So was this when he traded Marlo? No, that was what, you know what that was? That was six minutes after they signed John DeVaris. Well, it's July 1st, yeah. Six minutes after they signed John DeVaris. That is awesome. But some guy dug that up in the replies of that tweet. It was like, good on ya.

I gotta tell ya, I really deeply, like the people who have time. I respect it. I do not at all. How do you search the day of someone who don't? I don't think you just search name and dubus. Yeah, dubus. And then you scroll through it, scroll through it, scroll through it.

But I just, I can't imagine loving dubus that much or hating Sam that much. Well, you know It's one of those two things where you're in one of those positions where you either love Dubas so much But you're also a Leafs fan and you hate Sam. You're this perfect melting pot of those three things That you've decided to dedicate an afternoon to be like and I know it doesn't take that much time But for me, that's a situation where I'm like you, where I go, 10 seconds is too much time to be doing this behavior.

I just thought it was funny, I got so many tweets when I sent out, because the context of it is that Seth Jarvis scores his second in a row of 30 goal season. The pick that was used to him was the one that was attached to Marlo to get rid of the contract to pay Casperi Kappen and Andreas Jansson

and I sent that out people like you took that out of context I'm like no I don't text there that is like oh blue paid him all that money well I was like no I just tweeted us say you know I will say that that is a tricky one in terms of me criticize you never know if they're gonna do well well they just needed to get rid of Marlowe and that was the price they just needed to win and then we'd have been like, that made sense. They needed that money. But anyways, great to have you buddy.

Thanks so much for your time. It is lovely to have you here. We can do a 10 hour show and not blink. Check out the JD Bunkus podcast. It is fantastic Leafs talk as well. And we will have bunk pack more over the course of the seat. We will see you in the national hour.