Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: An Unforced Benching

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

Justin Bourne and Sam McKee begin the Friday Leafs Hour discussing Toronto's 5-4 OT loss to the Buffalo Sabres, early season criticisms of head coach Jim Hiller's player deployment, the decision to bench Gavin McKenna, Kirill Marchenko's breakout game as a Maple Leaf with a hattrick, and John Tavares' injury. Then, Sportsnet.ca's Luke Fox (31:32) joins the guys to weigh in on Hiller's lack of trust in the 2026 first overall pick, finding different defensive plays from his lineup, the long-term outlook on their d-core, and which goaltender starts against the New York Islanders on Saturday Night. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Real Kipper and Born today. Real Sam McKeehan, Born. We got our technical directors, Derek Brandeo, Jake, the Snake Shultz. And we're live on SportsNet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto, and streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. If you miss our show live, you can always get it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Friday, October 16th, coming off a heck of a night, Sammy. How are you?

What happened? A whole bunch. I will continue to say that whenever I fill in for Kipper, I hate sitting over here. Yeah. It's just a different perspective of this place is much. You just don't like. I don't like. I like over at my chair longingly if we can pull up my chair there with there's no one in it.

Jake, it's just sitting there. We should have had the gas man on today. We should have had Gisier. Look at that chair. It just looks empty. I hate it. So, yeah, I'm here. Quite an eventful night.

And I will say, I left my house today. And if you're watching on Sporeset, and watching on YouTube. I got a new shirt. Very nice. Got a new shirt. I really like it. My mother-in-law, Carol, bought me a pair of pants from winters.

Too short. No pants are long enough. I got a freak body. People don't know that McKee's like six-six. Yeah, just a freak body. All my pants don't fit. And I went and got this shirt. And then I was leaving the house today.

I was talking to my wife and she said, you know, that's a Justin Bourne shirt. Totally. She's like, you stole Justin Bourne's flow bar for bar. And I'm like, ah, you know what it is a Justin board. You actually texted me today and were like, just so you know, doing plaid. And so, like, my eye was drawn to plaid in the closet today. I didn't make a conscious effort.

So, I hope you guys like the shirt. It's new. Shout out Carol. Thanks for the pants to turn into the shirt. But, yeah, I feel like I stole here. Well, yeah, you look fantastic. Thank you. We got, uh, Sammy Gassira gave us all his good stuff. Thank you for the lineup today.

What a job he does? He, uh, he's got a hockey match today. Yeah, he's going to go all the way to Colbert or something, right? What league is he playing? I don't know. But he got suspended. I know that. He's a bit of a mutant note there.

I've checked the elite prospects page. A couple PIMs. Love the kid. Good stuff. So, all right, we come in here today. The Leafs got a point last night against the Buffalo Sabres, which is easily the most positive thing I can say. What a point.

As a very disappointing point. You know, they have the 4-2 lead in the third period. You got a Krill-Marchenko Hattrick, which, you know, yesterday we sat in here with Kipper and we talked about what's his level. Is he a star? Can he get a, you know, have two-and-one one night and do something? And, you know, not saying, you know, not leaning on Kipp about that. But it was funny that immediately after that conversation,

Marchenko goes and fills that, that's a positive. But a lot of the conversation today is about Gavin McKenna. And coach Jim Hiller. Yeah. You know, McKenna doesn't play in the second half of the game. And I think a lot of people are aware that's going to be the talking point. For me, you know, I wrote about it on Sportsnet.com. Today, I broke down every McKenna shift, what he did, all those different things.

to me, the problem is not so much to the McKenna benching. It's reflective of the way the Leafs chose to play. And the coaching staff chose to deploy their players, which is basically to say, get all the veterans who play defense out there, went in a shell,

and you know how that goes. You just get filled in. So I have a lot of questions for you. Okay? Because I've been seeing the tak Nadoes everywhere about this. Okay? And it's been a fever pitch. And guess what?

It's nice to see people engaged again. Yeah, because last year was the apathy set in and no one cared, and this wouldn't even have been a conversation last year. No one would have cared. So it's nice to see people fired up again. My elite fan brethren, we're back. We're fired up. We're back.

But, like, I see a lot of complaints about Hiller today, and I think a lot of them justified. But I got to ask you, like, people saying, oh, you're sitting back. You're sitting back. Like, you're sitting back. When they go into the dressing room between the second and the third period, what does Jim Hiller say?

Hey, sit back. Like how, like, what is the process of them looking like that in the third period versus what they look like in the second and first? We're quite frankly, Marnie, they were skating circles around the sabres and taking it to them for 40 minutes. Yeah. What would it be in the process in the locker room? I love that. So first of all, I think that is the best, most worthwhile question to address to understand what happened last night. Yes.

How does that come to be? I think we'll start by noting that I agree with you that the first two periods, it felt like all the good. players in the game were on one team. Except for Jack Quinn, who all of a sudden turned into Ovi. Yes. The most dangerous man in the league. He was, other than him. He was ever.

But the Leafs looked faster. The Sabres defense without Rasmus Dahlene, without Bo Barron from here before, they looked like they had their hands full with the Leafs and were struggling to to figure that out. So we'd like to see them lean into that a bit more. But I chat sometimes, Anthony Petrilli, a guy that we banter about some things with. And he was complaining about, you know, I think it was a Hiller thing. post game and I said, do you think that Hiller went in and said, stop playing?

Like what do you? You know, I was being skeptical that like that there is this criticism of Hiller because no, he didn't say instead of a one two, two, we're now going to be a, you know, zero one four or something. That didn't happen for sure. He didn't go in and say to the guys. He didn't go in and say stop playing. Okay.

You know, none of that sort of stuff. I think there's a couple of elements. One is that as a player, you know that you have a four or two lead. and if it's a 50-50 puck, you just naturally don't want to get burned. You'd rather err on the side of caution, so you pull back a little bit. So you're already letting the other team get to pucks

that maybe you would have won. But then to me, what changes is the deployment from the coach. Okay. And so that's where the McKenna thing comes in, where it's like, if you look at the time on ice last night, Sizzins played 1740,

Paul played 1730, Bluger played 15 minutes. That's way too much ice time for those guys. So Tavares gets hurt and he's out. There's one of your offensive guys. Yep. And McEwen doesn't play. So now if you're not going to play McKenna,

which we're obviously going to get more into, you're just, you're playing very conservatively, Blugur playing up the lineup a lot. So to me, Sam, no. To answer the question, it's not about like a systemic change. It's that I think it's a deployment change

and then a mentality change from the players. Okay. Because, you know, it just felt like it was Bluger, Sisons, Paul. Constantly. Over and over and over. And I even sent texts to you that I really have liked Sizzins and I even liked him in that

game, set up Marchenko for his hat-tred ball, makes winning plays, all this stuff. And he played well enough to get a shift in OT boarding. So, I mean, he was really, he was really dialed in. But, like, I, as a fan, am pissed about how that went. Okay. I hate how everything went. But, like, I do feel that it's very easy to be like, oh, he told him to pack it in. And like, I don't, I don't think that coach is going to be like, stop playing.

Totally. So that part of it, I'm just, you know, I'm a little bit on whatever. Like, I'm kind of on the fence about that part of it or whatever, how they play. You can still take the puck into the offensive zone. You can still shoot the puck in the net. You can still score goals. The Hiller himself said we need someone to make a player. For sure.

So the McKenna part of it. This is where everyone's pissed. And I would say, and I'll ask you, like on its surface, much like happened in the game, in Utah was the last game they played before this home game, right? Where McKenna missed maybe three shifts in the second period. When he was missing shifts, my first instinct was, okay, that's fine. That happened. That's allowed.

He's a young kid, whatever. When he continued to miss shifts after they had tied at the Buffalo Sabres, that's when I was like, well, now you're not going to win this game 4-4. Like you need to start playing offense again, and it kept being Sizzins, Paul. whoever like i was not thinking to myself when they were up four two that was like oh they got to get mcken out there and like shut this down yeah but you could have won five two or six two right like that i actually think that's the sheldon kefirer that just have skill teams to win that part of it to me is the infuriating part where that is how you can perceive it being conservative that's

how you can perceive it being a punt being like well we're just going to keep running sisons paul somebody who be able to stretch the lead and continue to do that, especially with the DeVar's injury. So where do you land on the McKinna part of it? Yeah. So it kind of reminds me of the way statistics change they play in the NFL, that now, you know, you're supposed to go for it on fourth down more. Yes.

Right? Like just go put the game away, keep the ball. And that was an option that they had. So the McKenna thing, Hillers respond or his answers, we should probably listen to them. Would you like to play them? We have them. Yeah. Because I, you know, as I said, I broke.

down every puck touch and shift of McKenna in my article. So I've kind of got some thoughts on what he was seeing. Let's do that. Let's do clip three, Derek, and then we'll go from there.

Clip three. You know what? That was my decision. We went for a stretch. I think we had those penalties. I wanted to get them out there. He sat through those penalties. And then I didn't get them out there

through that stretch. And then in the last few minutes of the period, we're just trying to get out of the period, I guess you would say. And now as I've sat him for, so long and he sits in the intermission. So I probably should have got him out there early in the third. I didn't. So I'll talk to

him about that. You know, I follow Chris McCluskey on Twitter. Shout out to him. And he just talked about going through the line deployment and the second what happened. McKenna misses a shift at some point because his line mates get out ahead of him and they get 20, 30 seconds into a shift. So sometimes they'll just

end the first guy in the next line because those guys are going to change soon. Seems like he missed a shift or two because of that. Then there's penalties and he just kind of doesn't get out there in the second period. I don't care. He's got to get back on the ice. Agreed. He's a talented guy who can make plays who I thought worked hard defensively.

So what I saw from his game was in the neutral zone when he's the guy in his lane, you got to get a body or the puck or force someone to make a play. He was the giff of that security guard doing the like pseudo pat-downs. I know the, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was that in the neutral zone a few times. So I can, they don't love him in that spot. But he made so many good plays. You remember cutting through the neutral zone?

You know, he got a great look from the hash marks. He made it behind the back pass. He got to have a few shot attempts. Like he created quite a bit for them. Nothing he did was enough to say that he shouldn't have been playing. So Hiller says, I should have got him out there in the third period. Get him out there at the start of the third period. That's your job.

You don't have enough forwards going. I think what frustrates me most about the whole thing is two things. One is that it's game eight. You're up four to and you're at home. If you can't give him experience in those moments because you're worried about it, now it's the time to do it. Get him out there. COE performs.

That's the perfect time to do it. And the other thing is if it wasn't because of something he specifically did, there was no bad play, they didn't say, don't do this and he did it, whatever. then all you're saying to him is that I don't trust you. Yeah. And that to me is the worst message of all to a kid in game eight of his career. We just don't trust you. And I don't think he's earned that slap in the face yet.

So I get the idea that they trust other people more. And the coaching staff would spin it that they care more about those guys. But I didn't like the statement about McKenna to him. So what I'm worried about here is this all to me, what's happened over the last, I don't know, however, since that game ended until right now, however many hours it is, not a athlete by any stretch of the imagination,

not going to try to do that. We've already done time zone talk on this show and it doesn't go well. All of this is an unforced error. Well said. What Hiller has done now, and I thought, like, pretty positive conversation around Hiller

up until this point, well, he's taking the shackles off. I think the vibes have been great around the team. I know they haven't won everything, but they're scoring again, and they're sort of, you know, they're fun again. and people are enjoying watching them again and all these different things, okay?

So I think that up until yesterday, if you went up to people on the street and were like, what do you think of Jim Hiller so far? I'd be like, well, you know what? I think he's heading in the right direction. Things are going great. You know, they score a lot. They have some defensive issues, but I think a lot of people would blame the personnel before they'd blame the coach and all that different stuff.

What Hiller did yesterday, and maybe this is on purpose because he doesn't want to, he wants to take the heat off his young guy. I don't know if that's true or not. But he's brought himself into the oven. He has brought himself into the spotlight. Yeah. Has the target of all Leaf fans are not talking about the decor today. They're not talking about Marchenko.

We haven't even got to yet. They're not talking about anything. All they're talking about is him. Yeah. And I don't know if that's what he wanted. I don't know if that's what he's trying to do. Take the heat off the rest of his team. That's if he's that calculated.

But to me, it was a big time unforced error that has really just kind of brought him into the spotlight. And people are going to be watching them like a hawk. And I'm seeing Lee fans bringing up tweets from like the Kings when they played and like the stuff he said. Like it's like a relationship where it's going good at first. And then you like you'll read an old tweet from somebody or you like see an old Instagram post.

You're like, oh, what was that about? Should I ask him about that? Like I just think it was not enforced air. That's where I'm at on it. Yeah, trust does feel shaken. It's interesting because like let's say it was because he didn't like the way he was playing. Say that.

Well, in that instance, what I would have dreamt, like, if I, if we came in here today and Jim Hiller post game had gone to the podium and said, hey, guys, like, Luke Fox asking the great question that he has to ask him, we're going to talk to Luke in 20 minutes here, and you say, hey, like, why did he was he bench? He's like, hey, it was a coach's decision. I didn't think Gavin had it tonight. Yeah.

But we'll have a conversation about it. We'll move forward and we'll play on Saturday. And that's that. hey, like, we can disagree with that. And I would, I would disagree with it. But I would at least respect the sort of, you know, gumption to go out there and say that as opposed to giving me this like weird, mushy thing.

The same thing he said about the overtime stuff where it's like, it just feels like he's not willing to say that he benched him, but he benched him. You know, just say it. Yeah. You know, when it was. You're the coach. When it was happening, and again, this was in my chat with some people who were

mad at Hiller, I was happy about it. Because we just went through two years of watching this Leafs team who never actually faced repercussions. They had a much tougher man, by all accounts, and Craig Barubi. Is there anything that was more, like, fake promised than him being like Mr. Accountability? No one ever missed a shift.

No one missed a shift. No one missed a shift. So I was like, this is good. Let the guys know you want to set the press in early in the year. You play bad, you sit. And then I went back and watched the shifts and he didn't play bad. Yeah.

You know, and so that really kind of messed it up for me. But the other part there is like, if it was because they saw something, I didn't. Or maybe they thought that the clips that I showed where he wasn't perfect was enough to justify it. Then I get Hiller coming out as the shield and being like, it's me, blame me. Don't look at the kid.

I kind of get that idea. Because I think McKenna has such goodwill from Leafs Nation. They weren't going to bury him anyway, but everyone's always willing to bury the coach. Yeah. And maybe, you know, again, I think he's, he might have been trying to do good by deflecting it from McKenna. But you're right.

Years I haven't seen a coach take this much heat over one incident. We were talking about, you know, I remember when they hired him and he was saying all the stuff about like celebrating offense again and bringing back spirit. And I remember saying like, okay, we'll see what that's like with your first three game losing streak in November. Yeah. Well, we've arrived at a flashpoint on October 16th. So I don't think there's ever been a team that's happier and luckier to have a league mandated day off than today. Yeah. Like,

I think it'd be better though for them just to come out and talk about it. No, no, no, no, no, no. They have to sit down, have a conversation. I'm sure Gavin's in the ring today. They're having a conversation about it. Chica, everybody coming in, kumbaya, talk about it, talk through it, and then come up with a sort of unified message tomorrow when everybody arrives at morning skate at the Scotia Bank Arena. Like, I think today a deep.

a deep breath. Like, we're all going to say stuff, but like, we say stuff every day. Yeah, like that's... Smashes off these walls and comes back to us and it's over. That's what happens. Like, everybody's going to talk about this. But I think for them to be able to have this day,

go to the rink, have a conversation, and just have a unified message. But yeah, man, people are mad. People got the eyeballs on Hiller now. So maybe that's what he wanted, but it's going to be interesting to see how it goes.

Why do we just listen to him on McKenna's game before being sat in clip four? It was okay. It was okay. It was okay. It was fine. Again, the big thing is the penalties. He doesn't get to play. We get into the thing.

Now he hasn't played for 30-some-odd minutes. We talked about getting him out in the third, and then I guess it just didn't happen. That's on me. And then once we got into that stage, I always said, I'm not going to put him out there now. I'm sitting there for 30 minutes. It's not fair to him.

So I'm really glad we played that because my bird brain, I forgot. I wanted to ask you about that. You've been played high-level hockey games. I'm sure you've been benched before in your life. Oh, yeah. But like, you forget? Like, can you, like, I'm pretty sure if you're like, hey, Gav, we need you in three on three. You probably would have been pretty excited to hop out there and probably wouldn't able to be skate fast.

I was thinking during overtime, it's too late now. You did think that? I did. Interesting. I was like, you can't go now. Wow. I just, you know, it's like you're on the speed of a treadmill and the gym. Okay.

And you step to the outside and you let that treadmill keep going to that pace. And then eventually you try to just hop back in on and keep your legs going. there is an element of you're probably going to fall on your face a little bit. It just didn't, it wouldn't have felt fair to him. No, on the other hand, I mentioned in my article, like this kid is a super otherworldly talent. Yes. Puck on a stick, he's going to be fine.

You know, I think he just would have been at risk of being exposed in the other sort of parts of the game. And at that point, it's all, I've been fine, McKenna. See, that's interesting. Because I was pissed at like, like, oh, he's not going to forget how to play. Yeah. But you think that, like, it was too long. Yeah, I just, I do.

I think it was too long, but I didn't think it was too long, even with 10 minutes to go in the third, as the game is getting tighter. I still felt like he could have got back into the game, but it does get to a point too where, again, if I'm McKenna, I'm like, don't put me out now. Like, well, just kind of like from a screw you factor. Like, you know, don't play, not play me for the whole game. Then you need me to go perform my little special trick here, you know. You need to do a little dance. But like, that's how I would feel if I was like a fighter on the end of the bench. Like, now it's your turn.

Yeah. I don't know. I think it did get to a point where it's probably too late. So they lose Tavares. They're playing effectively a beer league lineup. They got nine forwards out there. They're rolling it. They're coming off of a road trip.

So Zach McEwen just can't play? I thought McKeown was good. I thought that line was very good. The first goal, or no, the second Marchenko goal, where the fourth line has an unbelievable shift, where they're cycling it. And McEwen erased someone. They never really showed it on the broadcast,

or like, never really showed a replay. Yeah. But he got in on the forecheck and hammered somebody. The puck gets rushed up the boards. They keep it in. Devaris makes that great play along the boards. Like, you're talking about the strength. Gets to Marchenko, rips it in.

Like, he's not horrible. No, I actually think he's been affected. Listen, I don't think he needs to play 11 minutes, but I think he can play more than six. It's like it seems like they hit a point in the game where they're just saying, no, we're past the McEwen point of the game. Yeah.

It just felt that the guys, and even Mike Johnson, MJ on the broadcasts, like, these guys are gassed. I'm like, well, they're playing a beer league line. Of course they look gas, they're up there every other shit. It felt like, you know, when you're playing well and around a golf and you get to like the 15th, 16th hole and you're like, oh, I'm low. And then you try to hang on and it's never good. Yes. It felt like they recognize, oh, we're up for four or two.

We're just going to hang on. Yeah. You know, and obviously that's just the way it goes. And I'll give the Sabres credit. They smell blood. Yeah. They felt like the leaps after the DeVars injury, they sagged. Their energy went as not nearly as good.

They were playing prevent defense. And that Sabres team, they're fast, they're young. That Jack Quinn looked unbelievable. The goal Samuelson scored from the beautiful goal snaps at top corner. They took advantage of the Leafs sitting back, so I want to give them credit. Because I didn't think they had any chance in that game. The first two periods, I thought those were going to be seven too. Yeah.

It just felt like they could not keep up. So we should all, yeah. Bob's allowed to make a save, by the way. Sure. We should get to all the other stuff too. Yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah. But, yeah, Bob, I thought this.

And I thought to play that Nylander made on the pass that I forget who made it to the guy who scored the tying goal. Samison. He looks down. He tries to get a skate on it. No stride. It's not a great visual for Willie. Willie is never ever going to be Marion Hose out there in terms of defense from the wing. But some of the visuals with him on the other end of the ice can be not pretty.

And he had put up with it because of what comes the other way. But I thought that was a particularly ugly play for 88. Well, I'm just continuing to be Nancy negative. Yes. We talked with Kip yesterday about the neutral zone and teams pounding the Leafs D because they're coming through the neutral zone with speed. You know, Quinn comes down, he shoots one off speed, you know, because there's nothing in the middle.

And then the Samison comes down, they shoot one off a rush. Like this is a real problem for this team is how do you slow down the rush? Okay, good stuff. Okay, good stuff. Marchenko. You know, we were waiting for this day. You know, it was really nice. to see the between the legs goal is as nice a goal.

I sent the tweet about this, but JVR tried that on the Leafs power play. 1,000 times. Every game. I swear he tried to play. Ors and go one for one. Yeah. I just love that we had the conversation yesterday.

Can he be a superstar? Can he be a star? And then scored maybe the most superstar goal. I've seen a Leafs player score in I don't know how many years. He was brilliant last night. Yeah. And I think a big part of it was that he, he was the driver of offense on that line

playing on his correct side. That's interesting. Right? Because, I mean, he was playing on his off wing for however long up until for seven games until last night. They put him on the proper side where he's the guy who carries the puck. He's the guy like playing with Tavares and Paul. I don't mind him ripping it up the right side and cutting into the middle and firing.

And those guys are going to go to the net front and draw people back. And it is a good fit for him. You know, the thing that shocked me most about his three goals, understated Celebrator. You know? Yeah. I didn't really pay that close of attention.

I don't know. You barely did a thing. Yeah. He was like, yeah, thanks. I mean, that's, you mean, you're,

listen, you've played a lot of really high-end hockey in your life. The nasty or the goal sometimes, sometimes you're just like, I know how to do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the shoulders. Listen, if I'd like, if I tuck one under the bar at the zigzags, I'm like, whatever,

I do that all the time. Either day. Yeah. A little fist bump back to the bench. You know, You get it. Like, you see what he's saying, but I...

Sick finishes, though. I would say, though, that I'm shocked by my perception amongst Leaf Nation about my anti-Marchenko. Like, I'm very... I'm painted with the brush. Oh, I don't see that at all. I was surprised, you know, Twitter's not the real world. But I sent a couple tweets about Troy Stetcher last night

who I loved fighting Jack Quinn and, like, just competing. Shout out Stature, who's like maybe their second best. Which is a problem, but he competes. And then everywhere, was like, where was that one on Marchenko, buddy? I'm like, oh, crap, is this me? Oh, no. Oh, no. So, I've wanted more from him. Like, I think he's looked great. You wanted a production.

And they got it last night from him. And you wish it was in a win, and he had a chance to make it for an overtime. That stinks that he doesn't get to be properly celebrated after a game where, you know, he's a huge part of why they get a point. We got Hiller talking about Marchanko. Why don't we do clip five? Yeah, I mean, those were big time goals, right? I mean, I guess two of them for sure.

The other one was just a great play by Sisons. but yeah, he's got that dynamicism for sure, and that's, we're going to need that. And you knew it was going to come sooner or later, right? That's what it is. You can't be that talented and not score. So it's going to come like we saw it tonight. Okay.

Dynamism? So I will say, you know, he has the hat trick. I think he ended up even on the ledger. He was even. So as exciting as it is to see him do that, the puck's entered the net. Yeah. Right?

When he was out there, like, he's dangerous both ways. And I will give a shout out to Darren Radish, who has been just tasked with playing the most hockey, I think. Like, even him. He must be like, I didn't sign up for that. He's like, Haler, man. Another one? He played 2709 last night, 31 shifts. It was a plus three in that game with an assist.

Wow. Right? Like, he was out there in overtime. He was out, like, he is their absolute go-to guy right now. Jake McCabe just under him at 23-0-1, at 23, sorry, 30, and then it's down to Stetcher who played the least. He was a dash-3 last night, Morgan Riley, dash-2. Oh, and I just said nice things about-d-dash-or-2.

He works hard, but... Yeah, I just... It's a big lift. I don't know, man, about this D-Corp. And that's... Yeah, you do. Well, I do. You do know.

But that's a big reason, looking at the way the third period went, and the way they're trying to play in that third period. They don't have the team to shut it down. It's a non-option for this team. If I'm the staff and I'm like, hey, boys, Because, you know, we learned something. We did talk about that today. Yeah, we learn something every day with our group.

Yes. We don't have the horses to play shut it down D. Mostly because our forwards don't lock down the neutral zone and our D back way in. Yeah. You know, so it's just like it's just going to be a highway to our end. They have to have the worst gap control in the league. I'm pretty certainly do. It's, how many goals this year have been scored?

Like 80% of the goals against where you just see guys back into the hash marks and guys ripping it. Yeah. So. Yeah, it's not ideal. So we have, do we want to hear Hillers take on how the game turned? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's slip one from Jim.

What I thought it was with the 11, 12 minute mark. They just started coming and we didn't have an answer. Yeah, we made some mistakes. In those moments, I know it's hard when you're on your heels, but you just have to be able to have a little poise and somebody to make a play and give them credit. They put us on our heels and we just couldn't make two plays in a row. And consequently, we got what we got.

Well, put out guys who can make plays. Yeah. Anyway, John Tavares hurt. Yeah. What do you think bad? Well, by the way, he was awesome last night. He was awesome. MJ said it on the broadcast.

Not a guy that ever stays down. No. And he takes a beating too, goes in front of the net. He plays every game. And he plays in the hard areas in all these games. Like, he's along the boards. He's in front of the net. He really does take a beating out there to see him stay down like that.

I would be stunned if we're just getting the notification that, you know, fine in playing tomorrow maybe i it felt like i mean we're watching it here if you're on sports net plus or on youtube i i don't know it looked kind of like ankley knee yeah which i'm not a i think you there's probably a not a doctor involved yeah um he has played 75 plus games or pace of for one two three four five six straight years and before that played 82 82 77 78 82. He plays every game. Yep. So that's a significant loss.

And as much as like Kip, you, Kip is hard on him with the five-on-five stuff. And he's right. He's not totally right. Like, it's not, I'm not staying here saying. The days of him dominating five-on-five are not really a thing. But he's a NHL-caliber. Well, the pass he makes him Ranchenko before the play is like he's poised. He can play.

Yeah. And they'll miss them. So they get, is it Ati-Ratu? It's, yeah, Ratu. Say it for me. At-A-Rat-2. That doesn't sound really. We got to get a finish correspondent.

There's not a lot of finish representation. No, but then they're going to say in a way we're not going to say it anyway. Yeah, but no, he, I mean, I don't know about him, but it feels like maybe good timing. Play center. Yeah. The most line guy, I guess you're going to move Bluger up a line or whatever you're going to do. Well, you probably hit, you know, Paul and Sizzins are currently both playing center,

your other options. I don't know, Du Hame can play a little center. It was interesting. Yeah, Tavares was playing on the wings. You actually don't need to move a center right now. It was interesting to me that on the, uh, like, you know how they tend to of the tweet with the lineup, the least do. It was interesting to me that they had Tavares listed playing on the left wing.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, they're soft launch in Tavares. Soft launch is the perfect way to put it. They're really trying to put that into our lexicon that that's something that's going to be happening. Yeah. It just, they, like he's a part of the offense. He's good on the power play.

Even though I'm trying to strip him off there, he's great on the power play. Like, don't miss him. He is a part of the team that they will miss. So, no, it's not too long. All right. Well, on the other half of our next break, we're going to talk to Luke Fox, who's there who asked questions of Matthews and Hiller

and has some thoughts on all this, a lot more to get into when we get back. Diving deep into Leaps, Raptors, Jays, and NFL, the Jady Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. A little extra intro music for everyone there.

I'm going to be joined by Luke Fox momentarily. Get into some of this stuff. Do you what the people had to say? You see Austin Matthews interview after where he basically said, like, this happens. We all go through about the McKenna benching. I also saw him talk about how he jumps. Yes. We didn't even mention that.

That was a sick play. That was really fantastic. And again, Jack Roslovick, I'm just, you know, I'm trying. Because me on Leafs Talk, me and Bunkus used to talk about Robertson tricking us. Oh, yeah. Like the trickster. And every year we get tricked him. Like, oh, this is the year.

And it's like he tricks it. I've just heard too much from other fan bases about like how it goes with him. Yeah. But boy, he's tricking me. I know. Hit Roslovick is 100% being like, oh, he's actually really good. How big of this guy for $4 million? You know, honestly, watching him, he looks really capable of playing with top guys.

If you got this from him all year, you'd be happy. He's fast. He can finish? He can look past? Can I ask you something about him? Yes. And I know he got Luke. I'm going to ask you quickly.

Holds his stick really high. Like the way he holds his stick. Hands close together? Really high on the stick close together when he's skating like with the puck. All right. Not when he's actually making a play, but watch it and see if I'm just seeing things. It doesn't seem like a great way to protect him. No, but it just feels like he has hands really high on the stick at all times.

Something I've noticed about him. We'll check that out. Okay. We are now joined by Luke Fox. Our least beat writer, Luke was around for everything last night. How was the mood down there in the post game after? they collected a point. That's quiet night around the rank, Luke.

Yeah, the story was not collecting a point. Oh. Oh. It's so, it's so funny, though. It was like, as a writer, you're all prepared to write this glowing story about Marchenko's breakout, three beautiful goals, Austin Matthews, you know, scaling the wall to catch a pocket the line, and nice giving go. Like, it was going to be a very positive story.

And then they blow the lead. And then you notice, hey, 92 hasn't been out for a shift in a while. And then so you start scrolling back on the shift log. And he's just sitting there, right? And he doesn't even look like hunched over the bench like he's going to take a shift. One thing that was interesting to me is sometimes when a guy hasn't been out a while because he doesn't kill penalties or whatever, a TV timeout will come around. And he'll hop over the boards and just get the legs warm and go for a lot.

twirl, not McKenna. He was just sitting there straight posture like he knew he wasn't going out. And all of a sudden that becomes a story. What should have been this great night? You know, beat a division rival, breakthrough

Marchenko, Matthew's on his game again. And then all of a sudden we have this sidebar becomes the main story. Yeah, the Take NATO forms for everybody to take their shots. Take their shots.

Boy, it's been quite a, quite a day. You asked the question to him. What did you make what he said about it? I wasn't buying it. I think if you're the coach and you're trying to win a hockey game and apparently the identity of this team is to outscore the opposition, you find a way to get the kid out there. I know he doesn't kill penalties,

but they've used him before in like a little bump-up shift after the penalties killed. for some energy. I don't think he had a horrible game by any means. John Tavares goes down. You decide to not play in McEwen. Okay, fine. But then Benchy McKenna, you're down to nine forwards,

coming off a road trip out west, and you wonder why your team looks the more tired team. And then after the game, you complain about how you can't put two plays together. Well, one of your best playmakers, you staple to the bench. You've got to find a way. in my mind

I don't think it was hey I lost track of the number one overall pick and couldn't find a way to get him out there I think there's a couple of potential reasons why it didn't happen I think the most likely one is he doesn't trust them defensively yet

so he ran his defensive forwards ragged and he probably realized the Maple Leafs have a trend this is five losses in a row now where they had a lead and they blew it And he probably doesn't trust him defensively. And he was trying to play clamp down hockey and win four two or four three or hang on for dear life.

But that's not how this team is built. Let the guy play. It's October guys. Like this isn't, you know, we need one point to get into the playoffs. This is a journey. And I think it was it was way too early to pull that card in my mind. Do you think there's any world where he was trying to like protect them by what he said in terms of like, like just you know not going out there and being like yeah he stunk i didn't want to play him like

i don't know like is that part of it i'm just looking for reasons for what he said because i didn't love the answer either that might be part of it he said like hiller did say hey that's on me yep i got to find a way to get him out there he didn't put any blame on mckenna which i think would be you know death in this city right like the the brand new head coach comes out and kills the 18 year old publicly. There may be some sheltering there. Like, we have to put in context. They did not like their game in Utah. They're having defensive issues.

The coach believes those defensive issues are not solely the fault of the defenseman. He wants his forwards to hold guys up in the neutral zone and be a little bit more responsible, a little bit less loose, get back, backtrack. And maybe it's a little bit of picking on the youngest guy in the team, but by the same token, I think maybe if that is the reason why he benched him, he doesn't want to then go throw him under the bus publicly at the podium.

Yeah. So that may have played into it, too. The only other thing, and this is not, this is totally unfounded, it's just like, did something happen in the room or on the bench? Like, did he sass off at someone? And they're like, hey, well, should. That's a legitimate question. No, I don't think anyone's ever going to come out and say that.

But it's a, it's a, that's the thing you see people randomly sit for in my playing experience, you know, where it's like, this makes no sense. There's a guy who said, hey, you know, whatever on the bench. Okay, let's turn the page. There's no, there's no proof of that. I haven't seen any view of that, but. Just trying to make sense of it, Luke. And I think, I think a lot of people are today, right? Yeah.

And, you know, by not practicing today, they've turned this into a three-day story because McKenna's, you know, going to be asked for. at morning skate, with Kipper taking a day off, maybe it comes a five-day store. See you Monday. I was going to say, I actually think that this is the greatest day off they've ever had. I think the opposite,

that they don't have to go down to the rank. They don't have to welcome you in there. They don't have to welcome Masters. They don't have to welcome Steve Simmons in there. They just get to be like, we're going to sit down here at the rank. None of the people are going to be in here. We're going to have a kumbaya moment.

We're going to talk this out. We're going to have a united message about this. Like, I can guarantee you tomorrow at Morning Skate. The conversation is all going to be the same message and everything is going to be kumbaya and it's going to be fine. Good. I think this is the greatest off day in the history of the team. Like, I think it's a perfect day to have an off day.

And you guys know just as well as I do, three days from now, four days from now, there's going to be another crisis. Oh, yeah. There's going to be another angle, another focal point. But to me, this. feels like a bit of a self-inflicted wound. Play the kid.

You know, and if he fails, then use that as your lesson. And that is your teaching point. But, you know, the whole point is to get this guy used to being in high-pressure situations. Divisional game coming off a loss. They need a win. Like, give the guy a chance to make a play, make a difference. And if he falls on his face, then the whole world sees it. It's not because you, you hear.

hit him on the bench. Totally. Totally agree with that. The other comment you made there is just about the forwards not helping the D, but like the D are not able to hold up anyway. Like I think if you had forwards doing a better job in the neutral zone, it would help. But it's a big ask right now from Stetcher, Blankenberg, OEL and McCabe kind of like maybe a half step slower. I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Blankenberg? Like in terms of long term stability for this team, Is Stetcher a part of it? Is Blankenberg a part of it? What's next for this group?

Yeah, it's patchwork, right? Justin, like Blankenberg came here on a trial because no one wanted to give them a legitimate contract in free agency. You know, Stetcher's very happy to have signed a deal and not have to take a PTO. And I love both those guys, like undrafted, undersized, those are the kind of guys you root for, but they're also not the kind of guys

you build a contending D-Corps around. So it's what they have. You know, maybe when Danford gets healthy, you bring him up and give him a look. I'm sure Cheka's out there seeing what is available on the, you know, the trade market. Now he's cleared a space with the trade,

minor league trade yesterday so that if a team does put a defenseman on waivers, at least he could snatch him up. He doesn't have to, you know, scramble and try and clear a space. So he's giving himself some flexibility there. But, you know, this is how the team's built. They're built out, score you.

They built it with the oldest decor literally in the whole league. They're a little bit slow. They struggled against the rush last year. They're struggling against the rush this year. They lose Chris Tanov, who everyone knew was a bit of, of a health liability coming into the season.

And it's putting extra pressure on the goalies. It's putting pressure on the coach to get its forwards to help because this is not a contending blue line. So I don't know. There's no easy solution, right? They use their best trade chip in Matthew Nyes for a forward. Where do you go from here? It's a massive question.

I don't even think they need to make the big swing move here. They just need to. You miss a meal, Andre? Well, they just need to make a, Like, well, somebody give you a half, you know, a body for a fourth round pick. Like, they just need a guy. Like, they just can't keep. I love Blankenberg and he's jumping up and down, jump up in the rush and he had some chances or whatever.

He takes a beating. Guy's eyes light up. Like, how many times did he get hit last night? I think he's really struggled. Like, he looks, like, he's remarkably small on the ice. Like, for him to make it to the NHL at that size is out of this world. Yeah. And, like, and Darren Radish is not going to last.

he played 27 minutes last night. He had 32 shifts. He, like, plus three, by the way. Plus three, yeah. He actually had a good game. He didn't, like, they signed up for $8.5 million. He's playing 15 and a half million minutes here. Like, they need to bring a body in.

And it doesn't even need to be this big swing. Maybe it's a claim off waivers like you mentioned. But they're not, they're going to lose ground in the stand. They keep running out this decourt. It's just not good enough. Agreed. I don't know. No, yeah.

I agree with you, Sammy. I mean, maybe you bring up Dakota Murmys because he might be a little less panicky than refined. Myers is there too, right? Myers Island, can be back. I guess you have some bodies. I'm sure Chaco will be trying to see, you know, get the pro scouting staff on it and see if there's someone that can tread water for a little bit. And then you cross the fingers that Tanniv is healthy. But this is kind of, this is what they went in with.

Yeah. Right? like the Andre losing Andre wasn't the plan. They had to throw them into the the Nyes trade to make the contracts work and balance it out. They didn't really want to do that. But what were all the big moves? It was bringing in Bobrovsky.

That's where you spent a ton of money and a ton of your efforts and you totally reworked the forwards. I think there was eight new bodies up front. So outside of Radish, you kind of just banked a lot on an off season of Tannab getting healthy. All of a sudden he's not again.

Riley's a little older. McCabe's a little older. McCabe looks a little, you know, less effective when Tannab's not on his right side. And it's just this is kind of what you went into it with. So you mentioned Bob in there. You know, I don't think he was terrible. I don't know if he was great.

Big question is Saturday night. You know, we got Saturday at hockey. Islanders in town in Toronto. Do you go back to your starting goalie, or is it Stolar's time? Easy one. Is it? What is it? I think Stolars.

No way, Bob. I think Stollars. He's a starting goalie. Stolars is already in the Islander's head. He just beat them a week ago. I go with Stolars. See, I guess I was promised something about what you misunderstood something. Sure.

Maybe that's much more likely. Much more likely. I think you're. it's likely they do start Bob who I think, but I think they should go with Stolars just because the Islanders has had such a rough time trying to get to him

and he probably feels good going against that team because he's already beat them once and he needs to get going a little bit because they're heading back out pretty soon on the road and you want Stollars not sort of sitting on what was an awful performance

in Utah like how long do you want him sitting and stew in on that? Yeah, I just I mean, he's the backup, so probably has to sit on stew on some for a while. They got the San Jose Sharks in Toronto Monday night. Perfect. There's your stolart start right there. I don't know. They paid him $7 million that he's a guy that plays all the time.

Like, he's going to play 50 games, isn't he? Like, he's going to be, like, that's what he always does. I feel like that's, if you're going to play 50 games, you're going to start a few in a row. That means you're playing five out of eight. Ah, okay. You know, that doesn't mean you're playing. If I'm the coach, it's an easy, I'm not even thinking about it. Yeah.

It's Bobrowski, but. I honestly don't think it matters. Their defense needs to play better no matter what. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, there have Darren Millard back there and it's not going to make a difference right now. Farther down the lineup, though, you know, there are some real bright spots. Like, I've actually really liked the guys that the coach loves.

I think Sisson's been really solid. I think he had a great night. He had a great night. Nick Paul has been, he looks like one of the, more important guys in terms of winning Pox four check defending. They're using Bluger all the time and McEwen is pretty good. So like some of the new guys they brought in at least have a purpose. Their PK has been unbelievable.

Yeah. And could you have wished for more from Roslavik? Like I think he's no, he's been fine. Like, you know, where the level of expectation was. I think he's been a nice fit. Makes less than seasons. Yeah. And then the other guy you didn't mention was Easton Cowan.

So McKenna gets benched. But how much the coach immediately trust Cowan was really impressive. And we're not talking about that because that's not the headline. But I thought Cowan kept his energy up through the game. And they need some young bodies. So I think he's really earned the coaches trust quickly. I think Brubay was high on him. And all of a sudden, Hillers high on him too.

So, no, they have some great pieces up front. That's not their issue. I am just so terrified of, you know, Chike is an aggressive guy. know that in terms of... Can't trade Cowan. Don't do it. I know. I don't want to do it.

I would have rather them trade nice than Cowan. I've been on the record saying that. Like, Eileen Cowan is a totally winning player, one at every level, like just gets it. And I'm horrified that they're going to trade them for a defenseman. That thought does keep me up at night. They need more guys that are competitive like Cowan. I think trading Cowan would be like, maybe not.

It might not be a 50 goal guy one day, but it would be like trading Hyman. It's like that's the kind of guy. You talk about your DNA. you talk about your culture, you need more guys like cow and you should have kept Hyman. Like he could be kind of guy, Connor Brown, all the dogs have been shipped out. Yeah. The Hyman one will always. Yeah.

You just had to pay Nick Richie, Marazick, and Andre Kasha. All right. He just needed that instead. Tough. God, what an existence. Why did I choose to do that? Anyway. All right.

But they're fun. They're way more fun to work. Oh, my God. Yeah. People care. I think we've had five entertaining games in a row. Yep. I mean,

never out. No lead is safe either way. So at least they're fun to watch. And hopefully they can figure it out for people like you, Sammy. Yeah. And Marchenko seems like a pretty unique cat to add to the media side of things. He's pretty thoughtful guy. Yeah.

He's a fun guy to talk to because I find this sometimes with French guys too. It's like when it's not your first language, you kind of just say. better, more honest things. You just let it fly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fewer cliches. And I feel, you feel bad for him, right? Because he wanted to celebrate that moment.

He wanted to just go on and on about what that meant to him and see the hats fly first time as a maple leaf. But then you have to temper it with, you know, what we lost and the whole point is getting wins. Oh, and he blamed himself for the OT winner. Yeah, good. It was terrible. He was swimming.

That's a good point, though. just there is more ownership. You know, Riley owned his mistake. Stollers owned his poor knight. Marchenko said Owen Power, hey, that was my guy. So I do like that. There was a spell there where the Leafs, I don't think were taking enough ownership when they

made glaring errors and lost the game. All right, Luke. Well, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate having you, bud. Have a good weekend. Okay. Have a good one. That's Luke Fox. SportsNess Zone. Leaves Beat Rider. The most red guy on Sportsnet for 15 straight years.

Yeah. Is that right? Whatever the camera. I don't know. That was just a Trump fact. The O.T. winner for Buffalo. Have you ever been more sure a puck was going to go in the net than when power got that puck in the spot there? It just hit him in the sweet spot.

Lefty coming down the slot. Ripped that guy who can. He's also been fantastic for them. Takes a while with defensemen. People write off the, like, I think tall D would take even longer. See the goal that had been scored in overtime last night? Oh, my God. God, it was unbelievable.

Long. Yeah. Just like him. Very good player. Yeah. Thanks to Luke Fox. On the other side of things, we're going to talk to Doug McLean. Even though Kipper's not here, we're going to get his thoughts on all this.

Perhaps plug his new book. Yeah. All of that and more. And ask zero questions. And ask zero questions. Let him run with it when we're back, Real Kipper and Boar.