Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Berube or Bust?

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee go through leading candidates in the Leafs' coaching search as the news starts to dry out. They discuss McLellan's underwhelming history, Berube's accountability and how the Leafs compete with other destinations looking for a coach. Is it Berube or bust for Toronto? Former NHL referee Dave Jackson (31:39) reminisces on calling playoff games, discusses the state of officiation in the postseason this year and weighs in on the idea that refs should answer to the media after games.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Dirk Brandeo says it's a go on the Real Kipper and Bourne show alongside David Sispumba we are Nick Kiprios, we are Justin Bourne we are Sammy McKee somewhat of a leaf edition of our hour yeah

what are you shrugging? what do you want to talk about? You got any leaf things to say? Are we out of leaf things to say? I think what I will say is yesterday, I don't think anybody realized how hurt Kipper was playing. Yeah, what a showing that was. And the mics go off at 5.54, and he goes,

holy, that was a fight. I was fighting, boys. I grinded, I told you. I grounded, grinded, and I'm still grinding. Can you hear it in my voice? You sound at 90% for vocal constitution. The sun's out, it's 20 degrees.

We're into the, you know, there's no news going on. The fact that Kipper, you know, still in here, grinding two hours a day. Show us how much he loves us, Porny. Is that what it is? Is it us or the paycheck, do you think? I think you get the paycheck either way.

Good point. I also had a headache. Oh! Nice work. Here we go. Here we go. What? Here we go.

You made it. I didn't mention it, though. That's good. You're better today, though. I am. I am. So wherever you are watching and listening, Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet Plus, thanks for coming along.

Also, if you get a chance, give us a download when you can't catch us live. Mm-hmm. All right. So kind of quiet on the coaching front. Is it? I'm sure behind the scenes things are happening here. Not much to talk about per se, you know, up to date on anything. I got a thing.

Okay, go ahead. Okay, let's go to your thing and then we'll do my thing. Okay, my thing is just Todd McClellan. Are we being too dismissive of the idea of Todd McClellan as the head coach of the Leafs? When you say that, I think people are under the impression that it's Craig Berube or Todd McClellan. Yeah, but it feels to me like it's Craig Berube, doesn't it?

Yes. Like everyone's saying, like, you know, this seems... But Craig's got a Stanley Cup at St. Louis, and the other guy doesn't have one. Did he win one as an assistant with the Red Wings in 08? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Does that count? You know, it's not the same as being a head coach for a team, I suppose. And who is he working with? Who is he working for? Babs. That's right. Is that right? Yeah.

Babs. You got a Babs disciple working his way. Yeah. You okay with that? Here's what I am okay with. Babs has proven right on everything. Coaching-wise, he was vindicated. There's pain coming.

Just nothing likable about the man. That's the problem. His problem was he was not saying that coaches need to be liked, but this guy found every reason to make people think that he's one of the worst people they deal with. Yeah, you can be a tough coach that people dread being when you're coaching them. But at the heart of it, you have to be a good person, have a good heart at the end of it.

But you know what's funny is that was a core tenet of Babs' beliefs. He knew that. He knew to be a good man. And I will say he always treated me wonderfully. I liked the man personally. He didn't want anything out of you, though. Well, that's fair. There's nothing I can give him. He didn't need you. He didn't want you. He didn't want anything out of you, though. Well, that's fair. There's nothing I can give him.

He didn't need you. He didn't want you. He didn't, right? Yeah. But he treated me nice. That's all I'm saying. But anyway, this is not a Babs referendum. McClellan, though.

Yes. So Craig Berube has an interview in Winnipeg. I came across somewhere. So he's got an opportunity there and i don't know i just i am not as sure as other people seem to be it'll be barubi over mcclellan are you i mean i think with with todd though there is uh an underwhelming feeling about his past experiences in edmonton san jose yeah at la yeah right and the fact that he was always considered one of the highest paid coaches in the league for a guy that's never got it done as a head coach that's some big commitment teams made five five million dollar guy is he still a five million dollar guy

no definitely not but also but if you're coming to toronto you're thinking five million well see to me the opportunity to coach in toronto is worth something and that's i would rather coach in toronto this is going to be the, hey, you can do endorsements. There's other opportunities here. Not other money. Not other money, but you become a name that no one will ever forget. But for a team that has a gazillion dollars, you're going to trade that in for a lesser salary?

Or are you going to just try to have the whole cake and eat it too? People would like to try to have the whole cake, but if you're the Leafs and you don't feel like he's worth X, they paid Sheldon Keefe a lot less than a lot of other coaches because they weren't as in demand. And I don't think Todd McClellan is as in demand as Craig Berube. But Sheldon was also a rookie guy coming in and hadn't proven a thing. With McClellan, it's not like he hasn't had horses right

those san jose sharks teams he had had tons of talent very good oilers had lots of young talent which that's hard to harness at times you know and that's you would think that's part of coming to toronto is figuring out what to do with lots of good players la what was the issue there to me i was saying they don't have enough of that but then i was going back through his history and i was like oh yeah he has had teams with talent, so can't blame it on just a lack of talent. So, yeah, listen, I still think it's somewhat underwhelming, but I don't think that he's miles worse than Craig Berube as a coach.

A message I've been getting a little bit on Instagram, Twitter, where people message me about this kind of stuff is, does it have to be, is there somebody else, like an outside-the-box hire? Does it just have to be? It can't be a new hire. It can't be another Sheldon Keefe. It has to be like a hockeyman through and through.

Yes, it has to be someone who's coached a team, and that's super limiting, I understand. And it has to be a guy that can, I don't know any other way to say it, but he can be a hard ass on Nylander and Matthews. And who knows if Marner or Tavares are there or Morgan. Because if you're the new guy, you come in, those guys have power over you. The number one thing that the new guy has to come in is to squeeze the top end guys and make them nervous enough that everybody underneath them are super nervous.

If they're not relaxing, then I can't relax. And that's why Brooby is probably number one, is because we know that he can do that. We should find that clip of him as early as this year where he talked about the Blues without passion? I don't remember. Remember that one? Well, yeah, it was going around on Twitter yesterday,

but he's just basically saying that they didn't play with any passion. They didn't play hard. He's a very, very honest man. He has the passion. He probably does have the passion, yeah, I would say. I think if you're going to... The only really free agent coach that's going to come in and, you know, not be to have the players have more power is probably Berube. Yeah.

Because if you look at McClellan, is McClellan going to come in and be like, tell him he's going to have more. He still feels lucky to be here. I agree. That's how that would feel. So now the more that we talk this out, it really does feel like Berube or Bust. If you're just going to go McClellan, why? Why are they letting him go have an interview in Winnipeg?

Why don't they just pay the man his money? That's really interesting. The other one, too, is New Jersey. Now, if you were to ask Craig Berube what would his number one wish be, it would be to coach the Philadelphia Flyers next year. That's number one. Think so? I know so. Okay.

That's not available. Right? Tortorella staying? Well, yeah. Okay. and he wants to coach as early as next year but he also wants to maybe move into management but it's not happening next year okay it's not happening soon enough so does Craig want to wait to see where Tortorella goes for another year and get his dream job of being the Philadelphia Flyer head coach or does he take the next best option?

I mean, I don't know if I want that either. The guy doesn't want to be here? Well, no. It's not that he doesn't want to be here, but there's somewhere else that he'd rather be. Well, come on. It's like being drafted as an 18-year-old and it's not your favorite team. You're still happy to go somewhere.

It's not like Sammy's not going to try when he becomes your head coach in the Toronto Maple Leafs. He's not the Flyers. Hearing that, it's a little jarring. Maybe he won't be so reverential about the whole thing. The only thing I wonder now is if

the New Jersey job, because he lives 50 minutes from... Does he live in Philly in the off-season? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Would he rather just be close to home

and take the New Jersey job? You know, when I saw that he was going for this Winnipeg interview, I was like, you know, the man is a... It's not like the Leafs can make him do anything. You know, the Winnipeg, he's from Manitoba. No, Alberta, right? That's originally Alberta. But, like, its can make him do anything. You know, the Winnipeg, he's from Manitoba. No, Alberta, right? That's originally Alberta.

But, like, it makes sense for him to go see what the offers sound like and look like. You don't get that opportunity to be a UFA in demand very often. So, yeah, I'm sure he'll hear the interview, you know, hear the offers. That's not the only option, too. There's Seattle out there. Yeah. They need a coach.

That exists. So, what is happening here here are they all going around and i don't know making everybody feel nervous that when the music stops some teams are going to be left without a chair i guess so i think i mean when it comes when one guy gets hired here for one of the vacancies is that going to make everybody move really quickly like is there going to be a domino effect like the trade deadline when everyone's like waiting and then the first trade happens and then everyone starts doing a big trade funny like you know because uh one of a head coach has retired he's not going to work anymore that being bonus from winnipeg you know

and a lot of teams are like the leafs and they don't want to give a new guy an opportunity because you know guys tend to have to learn on the job and frankly you watch knoblock give mcdavid and dry settle 30 minutes ice time last game like yeah there's a learning curve i remember sheldon doing that with oh yeah martin matthews for a while so you know there's just not that many guys that you would consider you know keith now as is available but barubi mcclellan like who else is there We do have the Berube clip. Do you want to hear Berube talking about the passion? Yeah, let's hear it, Craig. Let's hear Sam's future coach. Torpo had an outstanding game.

Tucker Bucci had an outstanding game. Binner, you know, we have some guys that are, you know, you know, it's not, we have a lot of guys competing. Like there's a handful of guys really competing and doing the job. But again, you know, our best players aren't even close aren't even close that that's news here boys that's news oh we're doing a half hour aren't even close show and let's lead with a kipper's clipper from craig brooby calling out his best players the podcast title is called we're Not Even Close. Oh, yeah.

Ordeal. That's what people are, I think, interested in. But maybe if he does it enough, it won't be such a big story. Yeah, I think the lack of it from, because did Babs do that kind of stuff in the media? Like, I have a hard time remembering him. You got to remember, Babs was still in that kind of development stage with a lot of these guys.

It wasn't easy when they were like 23 to call them out, 24 still. 20 when he was here. But Keefe did it notably a few times and then apologies. There was a big story here when Randy Carlisle said that James Reimer was just okay. Remember just okay? It became like harsh criticism of the goaltender. It's like, like god tough mark so but how much do you think like we just played that clip there we talked about how big

a news that would be like if you're craig brube and i guess that's kind of would be similar in winnipeg maybe not to the same obvious as toronto but like am i gonna be able to coach as hard as i want to through the media? Like, is everything I say going to be a referendum? Like, do you think he's comfortable with that? I don't think he's afraid of much. It's something that he's definitely has to weigh at for sure. And it is. That's the beast of this market is that you'll have to put up with crappy shows like ours.

Yeah, and you can put extra on your players' plates by being uncareful with your words. Uncareful? Doesn't sound right. But, you know, like if you say something a little casual and all of a sudden we make a big deal out of it and everyone else picks it up and whatever, the players asking or answering questions,

like it's different how to manage how you talk in the media the other thing too is when when sheldon did speak and then sometimes later you get a different vibe from him you weren't sure if it was just sheldon making that decision or kyle ended up going back to him and saying you gotta fix that that was no good and you gotta you gotta go back and try to change that tone and all of that and you're like and then he always spoke of we and we'll decide collectively and it was like i don't know how much there's a lot of we there yeah how much power you you really had over your comments are those your comments yours alone when you backpedaled was that because you were told to backpedal i mean the show that we've referenced probably more than any was that

the 24-7 or whatever they did that that amazon series and you remember when matthews made like alluded to the fact that they weren't opening it up that they were playing too tight and he like said something in the media keith was just like apoplectic about it he's like i'm getting killed in the narrative i'm getting killed in the night i remember him going crazy and i happen to have a meeting with matthews about it and all this stuff so like the narratives matter here and one little thing you say and it's our fault i'll fully say it but that's the market baby this is what we do it gets twisted that's got to be something that's scary for a coach man i don't i don't see i don't see craig brew be saying

something and then a day or two days later walking anything back once it's out there it's out there and i would think that craig would make that fairly clear to brendan and keith pelly and brad tree living that you know when say something, unless it's ridiculously obvious that I need to go back, then I'm sticking with my words. Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, if it isn't him, Woodcroft, I guess, is the guy who's available.

Gallant. Gallant. Gallant hasn't come up much for a guy who interests me. I think he'd be good. I think short-term, Gerrard is one of those guys where it's like, I'm not wasting my time. I'm not wasting your time. Like, you're not good enough, and I'm going to bench you,

or I'm going to cut your ice time, or you're in the stands. Yeah. You got a problem with that? So you fall back to Berube then? By the way, we will eventually decide how we're going to say Berube on this show. Berube? Berube or Berube.

I think it's Berube. Berube. I don't know. I've known the guy for like 30 years. If he gets a job, I promise we'll have a consensus way to pronounce it on the show. Fair enough. Fair enough.

All right. Are we through the coaching section no no no um so how many how many how many teams need coaches right now i said seattle i said toronto winnipeg new jersey toronto four is that it okay now you're craig bruby let's assume that craig's the top of the the top of the list now for anybody. If you were just to look down rosters, which team would give me the best chance to go win a Stanley Cup the quickest? Jersey's close, but I don't think they haven't done anything.

They missed the playoffs last year. I know they missed in San Diego, but it's the Leafs. So the Leafs are the most attractive out of any team, including Winnipeg. I think Matthews and Nylander have a lot to do with that, that you have these sort of like, you know, hundred point plus guys. You know, Winnipeg has a lot of good players, but.

I'm not sure I'd put the Leafs. I'd go devils probably. Who put who? Devils. Devils are a fine pick. Cause you get Dougie Hamilton back. Seattle's not bad either. If they can go and spend, they need some stars though.

They need to go UFA. They're going to pop out as a first round loss team to me. Like they're not talking about, you know, each stars that's tough to come by. That's. Yeah. And what are the Leafs?

Well, so far that happened, but at least you have the top end guys. You'vethews and neilander yeah well and whatever you still have an underwhelming i don't know i don't know this just keeps talking get syria you've got an underwhelming blue line yeah and you've got no goalie that you can count on. Yeah, I don't know. To me, yeah, you're not sure about Wolves injury or whatever, but I think the Leafs are a good team next year. I really think there's a lot of pieces there. I think it's a fork in the road.

Sure, it's big decisions. It's 12 UFAs, I think. Big decisions and decisions that you cannot make the same mistakes that you've seen in the last five or seven years. You can't... The Leafs are... At some point, when you look at all the mistakes, and I don't want to crap all over Kyle Dubas here, but...

You don't? No, I don't. I don't. But eventually it catches up to you, and you just wonder, is that the next couple of years? Or is it beyond that? I think next year you're getting more from Matthew Nyes. I think, you know, he had 35 points this year. He's better than that.

Nick Robertson finally looks like he can shoot in the net. Bobby McMahon finally found himself. Benoit is a nice third pair guy. Like, I think you have this uprising, this like second wave of players, and you're going to have a lot of money to spend. I think it's very attractive yeah go ahead and you know i think i think you are on to something though kipper that you know you got to nail these trades if you're gonna you're talking about trading mitch marner you're talking about trading tavaris you're talking about yeah if you want to

be as good as you've been in the past few years, you have to nail these trades. And I think any conversation that you're having with a head coach, it's kind of a complicated one because you don't exactly know what your team's going to look like at the start of the season, right? Like if they're having an interview with Berube right now or Berube, I'm going Berube. I'm going Berube. If you're having the conversation with Berube right now and you're

interviewing him and he's asking you back questions, like what are they telling them about who's going to be on the team like i guess you're just telling them you're saying you have matthews you have nylander you have this but it's kind of a weird team in flux that may be hard to sell yeah to a coach no you're not wrong that if you're brube it's a little bit like being like speed dating these interviews and being like oh this one's got a lot of red flags. This one's complicated. There's drama here. They lack assets.

Even if you trade Martin, or maybe it's a first and two blue chip prospect that might not come around to help you in the next two years. The cap space is there to do something with too. I get the point you're making is that the Leafs are not as attractive as maybe some of the other spots, but I think you're wrong. Benoit was terrific as a third pair, but they've got five and a half third pair guys.

They don't have a one. We're established with that. No, for sure. Riley's still there there and they've been 100 and whatever point team every year with riley is their one mckay took a step this year for me they need no they need two good guys in the back end yes they don't have needs but i'm saying new jersey had 81 points this year yeah yeah you know you throw a goalie in there and when you get 91 91? Like, they got work to do there. Yeah. No, you're right.

And I think they're just two teams that are at very different points of where they're at. You can see New Jersey being a 105-point team. Absolutely. It's not another question. No, listen. They should have had Markstrom there. They got Calgary screwed that up, eh? Calgary did?

Oh, yeah. Oh, what do you mean? They just botched the trade. Asked too much. Yeah. Well, you heard, was it in New Jersey where their GM said that they don't want to be, you know, basically held a gun point? Yes.

You know, when they know that a player wants to go there and they didn't feel like it was reasonable what the ask was? Which is good for them for not just panic trading and hanging on to Markstrom, but. Yep, exactly. Seems like this summer he'll go all right we're gonna also have uh dave jackson on former nhl uh former nhl referee rules endless for espn and i don't know are we talking about just another playoff where there's some questionable calls or does this one seem to be a little bit... Before we go to that, can I ask you something

that we talked about with Bukala yesterday? Okay, yeah, sure. Because, I mean, it's been the... A huge thing in Leafs Nation right now is that Easton Cowan, where I don't know if you saw any of the highlights of the game last night from the Oshawa Generals. Four helpers? Yeah yeah but did you see the game at all or see what happened they were down the Oshawa Generals were up 6-2 with 12 minutes left and they lost 7-6 in double overtime

I can't imagine more heartbreaking loss than that for the Jennys but Easton Cowan is a super duper star in the OHL he looks unbelievable and I think what you were talking about yesterday with Bukala, this is just the next in a line of guys that, like, we're talking about how they're going to need contributions from people who come up, and you're talking about, like, the McMahons of the world, and the Robertsons of the world.

I'm very interested to see next year what the conversation is around him if he has a good camp, because I think it's going to be a very interesting one. He'll stick stick around for the first 10 games and then you'll gauge him and in all probability he'll probably stay i just don't know stay with toronto yeah listen he's he's he's good enough i think he's good enough but there's a big difference between being good enough to stay and then being a difference maker when you need it come April. And I'll just go back to Nize.

Nize has made great progress. He's a good player. But not good enough this year to have been a difference maker. For sure. And he's 220. Yeah. This guy's $1.75, $1.80. Big difference.

Absolutely. And the Robertson thing is there, too, where he was a superstar in junior. It comes in. It's tough for him. It's taken a long time. But I want Leaf Nation to just, which they won't, and they won't listen to me, but just pump the brakes a little bit on all these. Just look at their history.

They've got 11 points in three games. Pumping brakes. 11 points in three games in the final. They're not pumping brakes. They're just going to hit the gas and then drive it over a cliff. Anyways, I just thought it was a great, great comedy. Yesterday was irrelevant because of what the Knights did last night. But go back in their history.

Like Justin Pogge, wasn't he the next Felix Podvay? Oh, yeah. But you know what what this is not a leafs exclusive everyone you know has this prospect fantasy yes thing going on except everyone else has like one or two reporters yeah toronto's got a thousand yeah absolutely and so just shout out to my jenny's fans can't imagine how bad of a burn how bad that burns say six two sorry to those young men catch dale hunter every once in a while just giving it to his bench, too. Oh, yeah.

What about him as a coach, Toronto? Buddy, I think he, like, you want to talk about holding London Knights accountable? Yeah. That's what that guy does. Did he do it? That program, every three years, they're looking Memorial Cup. Every three years they're they're they're looking memorial cup every three years as good a program as exists and he played ov 12 minutes in his prime in a playoff game once but held them accountable absolutely none of that lollygagging absolutely so

dale's a good coach i think you make a great pro coach. I don't, I mean. I just see, I get that message and I get that text on here so much about Dale Hunter as a coach, at least. It's nonstop. So anyway, I started bringing it up. So what do you want to say about the referee? I just wanted, I know we're going to have him on in five minutes. But just, again, your thoughts watching every night.

Is this, is it a hot, is it a hotter button topic than previous years? Or is it just the same? Every year it's the same. Every year it's the same because every fan needs every call. Every game is so important. Every power play is so important. So every whistle is scrutinized. That's not icing.

It wasn't offside. So these guys are just held to a higher standard i think having two canadian teams playing in a second round series adds to the heat a ton where it's like these games are so high stakes and there's so many eyes on them and these fans are just rabid and at each other's throats that when you see you have an uh especially with boston too or the the crybaby market there's one bad call goes against them for the first time in their team's history that they just blow up over it and their general manager whines to the media about refereeing that adds to the fan as well like this is the big bad bruins are usually on the other side of just don't talk about it let's they

have gotten every call for a hundred years the the one time it goes against them, it's a referendum. I don't ever recall the Boston Bruins crying like this. Neither have I. They're on the wrong side of it and I think that's a bad sign for them. And I think that's part of it. So you have these big markets where there's controversial calls in every playoff hockey game.

And there's these big markets and there's Canadian teams and there's tons of people talking about it. So I think that gets brought up. So interesting to get Dave's perspective on that. For sure. Did I get your views, guys, on whether or not they should speak to the media? I don't think you have solicited our views on that.

We're going to get Dave Jackson's for sure. Okay. But your thoughts about officials making themselves available yesterday that it's just going to be a reciting of the statement they put out they're going to try to say as little as possible it's such a subjective you know a job that i don't think guys are going to come out and say i didn't see it you know like i don't know i don't know that we're going to get more out of it but if if it makes people happy, maybe have them do it. I don't really care about it, to be honest.

I think it's stupid. I think if you have the refs come out and talk about it, you're just going to make people more mad because they're not going to come out and be like... They're not going to like the explanation. Well, they're not like... What player... I mean, outside of some guys will be like,

that was my fault, or a coach, like, outside of very rare opportunities. These guys are human. They're out there in the middle of the fight they're not going to be like yeah it was all my fault it was all my fault they're not you're never going to get the chunk of meat that you want but anyways talk to dave i just think it it would add to the chaos which i like i'm fine with you'd have to give the refs a little bit more money when you're the nhl you're fine with it as someone in the media.

You're just not fine with it if you ran the NHL officiating department or Gary Bettman. It's another thing where I think it's just pouring gasoline on a fire. Hey, here's a request for whoever coaches the Leafs next or the PR department. Can the assistant coaches say something someday? Can we talk to some of the most interesting, informed people

who help run the team and steer the ship? Could we have got Guy Boucher to tell us about his power play and what's going on? Could I get Van Rijn and the D? Could we get some thoughts? No. I think the assistants used to talk, didn't they? They did. Toronto Media? I feel like that used to happen. Pre-Lew, I think. I don't know. Yeah, I think They did. To Toronto Media. I feel like that used to happen.

Pre-Lew, I think. I don't know. Yeah, I think it did. When? Pre-Lew. Pre-Lew? I think so. I feel like it used to happen.

I think, but generally speaking, like there is no profile for assistant coaches in the NHL. There isn't. Like, think about it about it i mean there's no profile i'm saying when was the last assistant coach where you got to hear him and you you got to get to know him right what was the last one when you said oh he's an up-and-comer or this guy's gonna be a rock star and they're not not going to be able to keep him. How about that assistant coach? They're not going to be able to keep him when the first job gets hired.

And it's like they're all kind of around the league. They put their thumbs on them. And I think it's just down to one thing, the insecurity of a head coach yes that's it i agree i don't need to hear from this guy i don't need i don't need people to think he's smarter than me he's better than me why isn't he the head coach don't get to know him right no yes can you think of anything else no i can't outside of the pr department doesn't want them to contradict something the coach said then it creates a story and so they'd rather just it's

simpler to not have them say anything ever that's that's what the answer is let's hit a break yep i wanted to ask you something else but i forgot i'm gonna remember during the break yeah you'll remember for sure okay when we return dave jackson former nhl referee also at the top of the hour luke gastek who's done a terrific job on sportsnet hockey night in canada he'll join us and then trip tracy carolina hurricane valley sports television talking how carolina right back in it. The big win at MSG. That and more when we return to Real Kipper and Bourne. Get smarter when you listen to Hockey Talk, the Hockey PDO cast with Dmitry Filipovich.

Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Let's welcome in Dave Jackson, former NHL referee. Shut it down when? 2018? 2017? Let's welcome in Dave Jackson, former NHL referee. Shut it down when? 2018?

17? 18. 18. All right. Not bad. Now doing a terrific job as a rules analyst for ESPN. So, Jax, let me ask you just in terms of those last few years that you're an NHL referee and you make a controversial call in an NHL referee and you make a

controversial call in a NHL playoff series, how much were you aware of the noise around you and your call back then? Oh, very little. I mean, well, I shouldn't say that, you know, when you've made a call, it's controversial and you beat yourself up and you lay awake and you stare at the ceiling and whatever, but completely off social media. I wouldn't read newspapers.

I wouldn't watch sports news. I definitely didn't go on social media. So really had no idea how big the buzz was around calls I made or calls I missed. So I played with teammates that would go publicly and say, I don't read newspapers, and they couldn't go into the John Stahl without a Toronto Sun in their lap. So what do you think about the officials today?

Are they on social media? Are they watching? Are they listening? Are they getting feedback from their friends? Just no different than players? Well, it's a different generation. And I know guys during the season, some guys do. It's usually the younger guys. They're on social media. But I know the veterans tell them, come playoff time,

that it's soul fucking. Don't do it to yourself. Stay off it. Now, whether they listen to the veteran guys, I mean, I know a guy like Wes McCauley. I think he probably still has a flip phone. So I know he's quite important to you. But whether the young guys listen or not,

I would hope they do because, you know, unlike a player, when you score a hat trick, you're going to read good things about yourself. When you do a good game, you're still not going to have good things said about you. So there's really no upside to trying to mine your name on social media see what they're saying about you so let's get your take on this postseason does it feel like there's more noise the usual amount how would you compare this postseason to a usual playoff run from a

referee's perspective i can only really go from the last three years that i've been with espn because i i've become a lot more social media savvy um i really don't know what went on in the past but i look at it now and i say wow if all this was going on when i was working boy was i oblivious to it and a good thing i was because like it's out of control and I don't even mean like from the media standpoint I'm just talking from the fan standpoint um the conspiracy theories and the things they come up with are just and they and they take on a life of their own and it just it's just crazy and then from the media from the media standpoint I'd say it's been pretty consistent the last three seasons from what I've seen.

Jack, just based on a controversial goal from Sam Bennett in Boston, General Manager Don Sweeney decided to make a calculated appearance where he said officials should have

to address the media after controversial calls. To that, you say? I say definitely no with a caveat. I mean, like, you think about, and I saw his press conference. I thought he was well-spoken. I could see there was some frustration in his voice. You look at a press conference post-game, when a team wins, everybody's

happy, everybody's jovial. They usually bring the players out that had the most impact. A guy gets a hat trick, they're going to talk to him about his great game he played, right? When a team loses a game, it's seldom about the player that

made the big mistake or fed the pizza out into his own slot. The cost of winning goal. It's usually teammates come out and they talk about, you know, what do you, what do you guys need to do to win the next game? Like,

what do you guys need to do? What, what does the team need to do to win the next game? It's seldom, Hey, how come you screwed the game up and how come you lost the game for your team? That doesn't really happen that often.

They don't make players available. It's funny. I was reading on Twitter, I was reading, I think it was Eric Engels, who said that media requested Connor Hellebuck after the series loss and said the Jets wouldn't provide him. They wouldn't make him available. So they always say the players have to come out and talk but i think the teams kind of protect players to a certain degree there's nobody there

to protect the referees so i think you'd have a very confrontational um atmosphere i don't think it would be i don't think it'd be good for anybody but my caveat is i think there could be a compromise if maybe we had a pool reporter who would go into the referee's locker room in a non-confrontational atmosphere and ask the questions in a much more friendly

environment and then he could make those answers available to the other reporters. That makes sense. Might as well get your take on some specific moments in the postseason in the second half of the show here we'll be doing a lot of vancouver edmonton talk i'm sure you saw zadorov crosscheck on mcdavid susie crosscheck on mcdavid hyman crosscheck on zadorov what were your thoughts on what occurred and how the league handled it in terms of fines and suspensions? You know what?

That's above my pay grade. Do I think Susie was trying to get him in the face? I don't. I think he was trying to retaliate from the flash on the leg. And he was just, you know, the planets aligned. He was cross-checked by Zdorov from behind. He went down, he got him in the face. He got suspended for it.

You've got to be responsible for your stick. And, you know, let's face it, a one-game suspension in the playoffs is like a two or three regular season suspension. So I think they got it right. Hey, Dave, when we talk about the regular season towards the playoffs, we understand that the stakes are high, and then a bad decision, a bad play could end your season. I get that.

But as far as officiating from a regular season to a playoff game, is there anything that is noticeably different to an official that can cause him to feel other than the pressure that's out there? Is it harder to officiate a playoff game than it is a regular season game outside of the pressure that you feel for one mistake and it can cost you? Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, you must look back on the emotions that you had like your first playoff game. And I remember doing, like, my first several years in the league,

it was back, it was one-man system. And I was standby for several seasons, and I thought I was ready for my first playoff game. And I went out and actually did my first playoff game. And, I mean, like, my hair was on fire. I could not believe the difference between a regular season game. A player is going 110% every single shift. And what I came to learn as I became a little more experienced in the league

is that regular season players take lazy penalties. Players take retaliatory penalties. Come playoffs, if the game's close, you're not going to see those type of penalties. You don't really have to worry so much about retaliatory penalties. Come playoffs, if the game's close, you're not going to see those type of penalties. You don't really have to worry so much about retaliatory penalties and lazy penalties. It's more about guys trying too hard and accidentally tripping a guy. It's, you know, mistake-type penalties, trying to gain an edge. So you have to sort of sit back and breathe.

You can't overreact yeah and it's okay to realize that you know if your arm goes up a second a second late better that than overreact and call something that's not a penalty just take that extra second breathe and make sure you've actually seen what you thought you saw yeah in my limited refereeing experience that was the hardest thing was actually allowing yourself a moment to kind of process what happened sometimes the players go ah it took him a couple seconds to put his hand up it's like well good you know it's okay to have a think about it so in terms of having to think about things there are certain players and i'm

talking about sam bennett now who develop a reputation for certain tricks certain sort of cheap shots bennett now has landed a couple of sneaky right hooks on a hit how often in a game are you aware of the tendencies of the guys on the ice and kind of looking out for oh i know this marshandy likes to go low on guys those sort of tendencies of dirtier players? I think as referees, I think you do it all season long. I think the referees are really good at, they get updates every day. They're starting from day one of the regular season. They get updates, lineups,

who's playing every game. You get to the game an hour and a half, two hours before the game, and guys sit there in the room. They drink a coffee, they get in their long johns and stuff. And they look down the lineup, and they talk about players. The linesmen will do that.

They'll talk about centermen, which guys give you a hard time, which guys try and cheat, so that they know. And they give each other intel. The referees do the same thing. They go, okay, we've got these four or five guys that have certain tendencies. There's four or five guys in the other team that have tendencies. The last thing you want to do is prejudge. You don't want to go out and pick

on a guy, but you want to know, listen, when this certain guy's on the ice, and it could be anybody in all 32 teams, when he's on the ice, make sure your antenna's up. Don't miss something. I think guys are pretty good at doing that. What about when it comes to embellishing and just, are there some officials

that say, I don't care, I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt? I would hope not because I think embellishment is the toughest call for a referee to make. You've got to get inside the guy's head and determine, did he fall naturally or did he fall unnaturally? I mean, basically, you know, when you call a tripping penalty or a slashing penalty, you're looking at it and saying,

okay, you did it. I have no problem giving you a penalty. When you call an embellishment penalty, what you're saying to the guy is you're trying to cheat the game here. You're not being honorable, and I'm making that determination. And, I mean, that's some heavy stuff when you think about it. So I don't think guys want to go out there and call embellishment penalties. So I know we'll see them sometimes.

They go, well, why didn't they call embellishment there? Because you've got to make sure. You've got to know in your gut that that guy's trying to beat the game before you call an embellishment penalty on him. And even if he has a reputation, I think you always want to give the player benefit of the doubt until he crosses that line. Dave, last question before I

let you go. I just want to know why the refs always screw the Maple Leafs. Sam wants to know. That's on behalf of my Leafs Hour listeners, by the way. Yes. What's going on here? The funny thing is that's the same question I get from every single fan base

I do radio with I felt like a traitor not alone Dave great stuff man really appreciate your time have a great call tonight on your show yeah we got double headers should be fun thanks guys for having me on

looking forward to it former National Hockey League official, Dave Jackson. Have you ref before? No. No. Nothing. Serious. You tried it? And you liked it?

No, I'm here. I did it. When I was a kid, did it for House League and on weekends. It's very hard. It was like $25 a game when I was in high school. I was a kid, did it for, like, House League and on weekends. Oh, geez. It's very hard. It was like 25 bucks a game when I was in high school. I was like, yeah, it's fine. Yeah.

Three hours of work. I could see parents following you guys to the parking lot. Yeah. It wasn't that serious. I re-reffed lacrosse, which was way, way scarier and, like, definitely had moments like that. But reffing hockey sucks. I don't know why anyone would ever do it. I just remember, like, quickly making calls and being like, that's not the right call.

You know, like you can't put your arm out there and be like, ah, you know what? Actually, I don't think it was. That's the thing, the decisiveness you have to have where it's like calling it. There's got to be times you put your hand up, you're like, ah. And then if you put it back down, then you're dead.

I thought Dave was really good. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and just thinking about like throwing the officials to the wolves after a game and no one there to protect you. He's right. You're going to put him out in front of the Boston rabid media?

What do you call that? Meat to the sharks? Chum. I just would like to update. I know you guys don't like the world championships this is good you guys don't like the world championships no we're fine with that we're just saying it's at a stupid time of the year you make fun of me every year for telling how

much i love it's just a stupid time of the year to have them so canada was playing team austria today and they went into the third period with a 6-1 lead. They blew that lead. 6-6 goes to overtime. And who shoots it in the net to win it? John Tavares. The captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The captain of Team Canada.

There you go. That's leadership. Instead of the golden goal, it's the tinfoil goal that's leadership avoid a referendum goal for him there you go you're gonna be there matter oh yeah exactly exactly i don't think there's a more disgusting result in the history of canadian hockey than pulling a six one lead to austria olympic goalie yeah i guess I guess so. Our opposing face-off for nation. I thought it was maybe going to be Skinner.

I thought it was going to be Skinner. He was looking hot for a while there, and then he got replaced by Pickard tonight. I don't know, boys. Anyways. You want to get a couple sound bites in before we go to break? Well, we can save that for the national hour, but yeah. What do you want to do?

Do you want to do Vancouver here, or do you want to do do you want to do vancouver here or do you want to just well you want to just susie suspension no no shock of one game right for cross-checking the best player in the world no no shock i know that canuck fans are apoplectic at the idea that hyman would come in and basically drill zadorov in the mouth and there's not a word about that susie has been full-on suspended for this like i i think there's some real frustration at what's going on here absolutely i mean cross check uh not nikita zadorov but Conor McDavid. Yeah.

Do you want to hear Zdorov? No, Hyman. Hyman. Oh, Hyman. Yeah, Hyman came flying in. Hyman crossed Zdorov. Yeah. Oh, Zdorov.

Which is why we have a great quote on this. Yeah. Do you want to save it for the national hour or do you want to play now? Okay, no, we'll save it for the national hour.

Okay, we'll save it. Because we got Vancouver. Here's what Zdorov said. He said, I don't make enough money for the league. Yeah. So.

Yeah. What can True Living do to get this man in Toronto? How much is he going to have to pay him to be a Toronto Maple Leaf? I would think he put in the last month a million a year in his pocket. Zdorov?

Yeah. I think he went from 425 to 5-2-5. For how long? Give him T.J. Brody's deal. Give him 4 times 5. He's pretty young, though. I think it's going to take more than 4 on free.

Oh, is he 29? Yeah, he's pretty young. He can get 5 or 6 years, I think. That's, to me, the most... He would still make me nervous. Of course. But if there's one thing that I trust for living to do... Is overpay. I mean, that's for sure.

But I think he's had a really good decor in Calgary. He built a solid decor with a bunch of really good players but I thought that was their strength, right? Like, how many times have we talked about their decor being one of the best in the league, and he was there and he built it, so...

Zdorov, Hannafin, Anderson. I love Rasmus Anderson. They can... I feel like I trust him to build a decor, and there's a lot of good free agents. Like, there's Montour, there's Pesci, there's Chatfield, there's Zdorov. Chatfield's...

There's guys out there. I would go get Chatfield before I would get Zdorov. You need to leave some light on third pair guys? Buddy, this guy's top four all day long. Ooh, I like that. Okay. All day long. He shoots right, too.

He is not. This guy can play 18, 20 minutes, and he's on the ice at the most critical times. Bad news for you. He's the biggest sleeper out there. And Carolina's just the team to be aware of that. I'm telling you, he's better than Pesci. He's better than Pesci. What? That's a monster.

If I'm the Leafs, I go get him before I get Brett Pesci. And he might be cheaper. Sure hope so. So, yeah. That's quite a statement by you. Watch him. I don't. Just watch him. I watched the Carolina Hurricanes.

Make him happy. Bring us Nick Haag and Jalen Shatfield. Carolina's looking good. After they got swept. Alright. We're still getting started here. After the break, Luke Gassick will join us. See you up

tonight's games. And Trip Tracy as well. We'll talk Carolina in that blue line. Can they come back all the way halfway there now that more, when we return the real Kipper and board. We'll see you next time.