Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Brendan Shanahan's Decade In Review

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee kick off with their reaction to reports that Brendan Shanahan has been granted access to meet with the New York Islanders. They discuss Shanahan's likely looming dismissal, how new management could impact Mitch Marner's future and whether the franchise is revisiting its management structure ahead of any major decisions. Then, they look back on Shanahan's Toronto tenure and go through the best and worst decisions during his decade with the team. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Right back at you. From the Real Kiprin-Borne Show, Leaf Hour Edition. Nick Kiprio's Justin Borne, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, and Jake the Snake Schultz. We are live on Sportsnet 590 The Fan, SportsNet 360, and SportsNet Plus. Just prior to leaving the studio off air, of course, a light bulb went off and I gave you guys homework to leave the studio. And based on where we are with the Toronto Maple Leafs, I just said, guys, give me like five storylines on where maybe in the last 10 years, the Leafs may have veered off.

I don't know if it's an 18 wheeler like Brian Burke days, but it kind of veered a little bit. So give me five. And then you guys looked at me and went, you're so negative. And I said, oh, wait, give me five positive ones then too. There it is. And then you were like, now okay.

Now I'm on board. So. I believe Borny's response was, no way. Yes, that's right. In the end it was, no way. Yes, that's right, you're right. In the end it was Sam will do it. So a little later on, we will go through the last decade of where we think it went well and where it didn't, and maybe that's why

we are where we are with the Toronto Maple Leafs today. So it sounds okay. Yeah, so over the Shani-era basically. Basically, yes. Good moves, bad moves, over the Shani-era. Sounds good to me. I have 13 bad ones and eight good ones. Sounds like you've had enough time.

I don't know. What's that? I have 13 good ones. Okay, good. I've done 13 bad ones and eight good ones. So do you have enough time? I don't know. What's that? I have 13 good ones. Okay, good. 13 bad ones and eight good ones. You know, it wouldn't be right to go right into them now without at least advancing the leaf, Toronto Maple Leaf storyline. And there are various reports out there, including sportsnet.ca where our Elliott Friedman confirmed

sportsnet.ca where our Elliott Friedman confirmed that the Maple Leafs have granted permission to the New York Islanders to speak to Brendan Shanahan. Wow. Yeah. Hard to imagine a world where you would let your team president speak to another team while you intended to keep him. Right? Like that doesn't make sense. Yeah.

I think you're right on the surface, but if you, I don't know, go a little deeper, I'll expand my thoughts, but basically that's where you're at like Basically You're not gonna keep a guy that you're granting permission. Yeah, you've like mentally moved on from them You're saying yeah, you can have them. However, I guess there is a chance that it's like there's nothing better than what we have So go take a look. Well

Okay, it's well documented now that he's Well, okay, it's well documented now that he's, his contract's coming up, okay? June, I think I read. Yeah, June 30th, maybe? Yeah. So, like a player with a contract coming at the end of the term, is he treating himself like a free agent?

And he wouldn't be the first guy to cover his tracks like everybody does it. If we knew something was coming that was imminent with our jobs, the first thing we'd probably do is maybe, I don't know, look for another job. Right. So could it just be as simple as Brendan going back to MLSE and saying, you know my contracts up, I got to cover myself. Would you mind if I look around? I think the fact that he hasn't been extended yet gives him full right to go ask that question.

I think it's probably easier to ask the question. But I do think if they were had concluded they wanted him to stay in the role with the Leafs, they'd just be like, well, hang on, we're just going to let's talk about your contract here first before we get to that. Let's have a meeting. Yeah. That they're supposedly, you know.

Let's sort through this, that's gonna be there in a week or whatever, a few days. Can I give you another scenario? Of course, yeah. He's coming, he's come, Brendan's coming off a very, very lucrative contract. Exactly what, I don't know, but we know it's, very, very lucrative contract. Exactly what, I don't know,

but we know it was often referred to as one of the highest. Could he be in a scenario where he wants another contract like that and the Leafs or MLS, he is not prepared to give them that much But they'd still like to keep them around but we're not We're we're not gonna pay you that much, but we would pay you this on maybe a shorter term deal Is that a scenario that I mean it's possible I don't think that Scott Malkin and John Ledecky of the Islanders are gonna give him

Seven million dollars to be a president or whatever he made here. I don't know I'm throwing numbers But if you're Brendan, wouldn't you try? Try This is making seven in Pittsburgh. Why can't I go to somewhere else? Yeah, can I create a bidding war? Am I any different than any yeah pending? somewhere else. Can I create a bidding war? Am I any different than any pending free agent to go out there and shop for my services? Well I guess there's an element of the Marner situation here with Shanahan where it's like you're well within your right to do that and I see why other people covet you but like

it doesn't work here anymore. Would the team here just be like it doesn't? I think that's fair for sure And maybe that's that's what's going on. Go ahead. Take a look. Well, we're gonna talk tomorrow and this is gonna be relevant anyway it maybe they offered him a contract already and he's Trying to see if he could make it better. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know Okay, can I just say something about all this? It sucks. Yeah Shanny part yeah, just we're even just here

We are Sam. I watched I watched last night and you know, I saw The Florida Panthers who the Leafs fought tooth and nail with the seventh game of the series and they laid a big egg in games haven't I realized that but they were close with the Panthers and I watched them walk into Carolina and just put an absolute beat down on the Carolina Hurricanes and it's like I think back to game three where the Leafs hit the post within the dying second or maybe dying minutes of that game Morgan rally down the left wing I think of the two separate two goal plays I think about all this stuff and it's like we're so close to coming in here on today where we would be breaking down the Toronto Maple Leafs game one and we're like oh maybe

Shani's talking to the island like oh my god like I know it's it's I just I'm sorry reality. I'm being honest. I know it sucks I hate having this conversation. Do you not want to participate? Listen I'll give you some quiet time in the corner Sam I'm always in the corner anyway But I I know that there's some leaf fans listening to this That saw the result from last night or tried to even watch that game, which I'm sure there's. Oh, the Leafs are the monster. I'm sure there's millions of people across this country that were like, I can't bring myself

to look at the Florida Panthers yet. But like, I just, it really does suck that we're here. And then we're talking about the president leaving. We're talking about the Marner contract. Now it's like, it just, you snap your finger and it's like, we're right into off season mode and they were close to not being it. That's my only point.

So let me ask you, JB, just prior to this story out there about Brendan being granted permission, where were you on everything? Because I found it very quiet the last little while here. So we know there's stuff going on behind the scenes. What exactly? But where was your gut going with today prior to hearing about Brendan having permission? You know, my gut aside just from talking to whomever, listen, I'm like you everywhere everyone sees me right now. It's Leafs talk, right? Everyone does our job, but for free on the outside right now, basically.

And yeah, it's just waiting for Brandon to get fired. That's the assumption. I'm not saying that was my assumption. I'm saying that is the assumption generally. And then from there, what's that going to mean and what happens after that? So in terms of quiet, I guess it's weird for them to lose on a Sunday night in the board to meet on Thursday to me That's like a long time. What are you up to? You know? It's a pretty big decision here that but I would say I guess they're busy from the conversations

I've had with my friends and all the Leaf fans in my life that it would be a stunning Development for them for Brandon Shanahan to return to the Toronto Maple Leafs as president, wouldn't you agree? Like from the people that you've talked to, I think it would be a pretty stunning development. I've made it very clear from the moment the Leafs lost game seven and I went on with Ivanka and Ken on Sportsnet Central, I did not expect Brandon back.

And I still feel that way. Crazier things have happened in sport, but the tendency is that, for me anyways, that there needs to be a different look at the top. Here's my Sam McKee. Can I say something? You guys mind if I just ask a question? Yes.

Please. He's my face. Yes He's so sweet Can I just get in um, I wonder if That would affect Mitch Marner at all Like if they did change leadership and they said shanahan's no longer there or whatever else happens If someone new wouldn't come in and said stop no no we're not getting rid of the guy who just had a hundred and two points and gets nominated for a selkie stop we already did this I'm just saying I'm wondering yeah yeah we already did this so with when true living came in

yes right at the only opportunity you had to get anything in return for Mitch Martin we already did this everyone comes to the Leafs, at least, and goes, I just want to take a look before I do anything. Yeah, it's like, you know, I mean, the stuff to be done. I'm always surprised by that. Like, I mean, there are millions of people watch your games every night. Like, do you not have cable? Did you not see? I feel about Borubi at times this year. It's like, what do you mean you didn't run aware of what was happening here? You just don't, you don't know what it's like? I don't know.

I think for Mitch Marner, regardless of Brendan being there or not being there, he just knows it doesn't work. It just doesn't work and there needs to be changes and I'll volunteer myself. And I think one of the big defenders of the core for sort of ideal was Brendan Shanahan like I don't know the inner workings but you've heard enough rumblings here and there defender pal the number one guy reputation on it

so I think that is why it would be hard to believe that they would leave that they would let Shanahan go and then a martyrs like oh, maybe I will stay the number one guy that defended and kept me here, right? So yeah, I have a hard time So it sounds like from what you're saying kip that and nothing you've heard you you sounded more definitive there about the martyr thing Then you have yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and I think Elliott Went on postgame Caroline in Florida and talked about you know, is there still room for him and the Leafs to come together?

He thinks as of last night, I'm not sure how he feels today, but as of last night, he kept a small window open for maybe them giving Mitch a couple of days and revisiting it, but I just don't see that scenario after everything we've watched up until this point. It's really hard if any of these things don't happen they need to happen. Yeah. Maybe they go to maybe goes to New York to the Islanders with Brennan. I can't it's not that would be great like

as someone who likes the Islanders to do well, adding a good player would be incredible. It would be amazing. I just like to see new characters in the plays that I watch. I feel like I'm watching reruns. But anyway, it'd be a welcome addition. The other thing I did mention that if, if there seems to be a little bit of a delay here

for maybe the MLSE to make some sort of decision moving forward, maybe they're looking a lot deeper past Brendan Chanahan. I've mentioned already earlier this week that if it's not the biggest department, it's definitely one of them with a lot of employees here. Are they also revisiting the structure of Of the various departments the last count I had was five assistant general managers

With the Toronto Maple Leafs. All right five Yeah, it's a lot. That's a lot of cooks. Could they tasting the broth could they? Be spending time this week on revisiting Exactly what is it you do around here? Well, usually just sit at my desk for 15 minutes in the boat and just zone out till about 10 a.m When he says zone out, what do you mean? Okay. Yeah, the assistant general managers are Britain freedom There's a special advisor to the general manager Shane down Okay, yeah, the assistant general managers are Britain pridham There's a special advisor to the general manager Shane Donne

Okay, Derek Clancy per player personnel player development. Dr. Haley Wickenheiser hockey research and development Darrell Metcalf Assistant general manager minor league Ops and GM Ryan Hardy. Yeah, so what would you say? There's a lot you do here that's five six if you couldn't don't yeah so you're right a lot of guys it's a lot of people women it's a lot of people yeah so I do think that if it is something the first off we're waiting for the sale to be completed for MLSC and Bell mm-hmm right for the portion of the team. But it's in spirit, everyone knows it's happening, it's a done deal that it's going to be a Rogers

MLSC. And so if there is some restructuring you'd mentioned yesterday, it may not just be the Leafs, it could be the whole organization. My point is that it seems like they're making large decisions here, not just, you know, which free agent do we like best? It's yeah, who's making the decision about who makes the decisions? Yeah, yada, yada, yada. So maybe that's why they're when you're when you're coming off such an emotional loss,

it's a lot easier to do it now than if they were winning. Right? Yeah. Yeah, you have carte blanche right now if you want to do something. Go ahead. No one's saying how dare you yeah, so That's that's where base basically I I see things now Could we see something as early as this week? Tomorrow Friday with the board meetings tomorrow tomorrow could we you think they'd want to do this this week? Our show ends at six tomorrow, they'll have a 605 presser.

No, Friday, 605 Friday presser coming up. We would be happy about. Yeah, it wouldn't be the first thing in the world. Right? Nobody wants to hear us any more than they have to. No, like I, yeah, I'm good. I mean, we'll talk about it Monday, I guess. Anyways, all right, well, we'll just wait. We'll wait before we get into

I went on with Gunnar and Ben this morning and they we talked so many different angles yesterday, but Ennis and Gunnar both brought up the Matthews thing to me yesterday And I wanted to get your guys take on this that he said, you know Four months of rehab or whatever like he should be able to get back to 100 percent. Should they have put him on LTIR and spent the money and you know that you think he would have pushed back against that his new first year as the captain but like you know this is all hindsight 2020 stuff clearly but like we're captain hindsight right now the Leafs aren't playing anymore like in hindsight maybe you should have considered it maybe a couple months off

would have really done the trick for him. Yeah now it looks good the other question is like if you want to spend that money to get better players at the deadline you know look at the assets they gave up to get Carlo and Lawton. What else could you have purchased with what you had, you know, to use the Matthews money? But they had to add extra to be able to retain and all this different stuff. So I don't know. We had these conversations guys. We talked about putting him on a long-term IR. We had the conversation of, don't go to foreign nations. Yeah.

Don't go. We had that conversation a lot. A lot. A lot. And what happens if, me personally, I didn't like him coming out and playing the injury card. I think he just should have been quiet about it. Oh, he was asked about it. He didn't volunteer it.

No. He was asked about it. No, no, when you answer it, you volunteer your answer. He could have said, no comment. I'm not going there. I'm not using it as an excuse. We just weren't good enough. I would have preferred him to be more forthcoming

to help him his own perception to be honest with you But anyways, we don't have to go too deep into I just if if you were if you were good enough to be on the ice Then just let your play stand alone. That's my whole point. Yep That's all right because everybody's hurting everybody's Not a hundred percent. I'm sure he wasn't of course but anybody can turn around and say I'm hurt or percent hey are you hurt and he said I don't talk about it and then we're saying now how dare he talk about it it's like what he had to say words I don't know tough spot yeah but you could have

just said no I was good enough to play. Yeah. Okay, that's all. Anyways. So yeah, that's what I brought it up. All right. You should have. You wanna start into this a little bit?

Yeah, I do, I do. Okay, so once again, let's revisit the fact that I gave you a homework assignment. Yes. And I asked you for, let's just say for argument sake five top Decisions made over the course of Brendan Shanahan's Ten year with the Leafs and five Not so great. I had a lot easier time with not so great. Do you want to start with not so great?

Let's start with not so great? Well, I mean, let's start with not so great. Present, present away. I have 13 bad ones. Okay, but did you rank them from like least to the worst? I wouldn't say, I mean number one's obvious. Okay, let's go to, let's start at the bottom first. What do you got for me? Okay, bottom.

It's not that obvious because I don't know what it is. The bottom, we'll start with the bottom. bottom Ryan Reeves signing 13th on the list Yeah, okay. I got Zero issues for that. Okay. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah, it's not perfect. Yeah a guy that's Making a million bucks he He brought some attitude. You know what he brought? He brought the belief that we're not going to get pushed around anymore.

It wasn't perfect. But and he went more on reputation than actually dropping his gloves. But at least it showed that they're kind of driving it to the right direction of we're not going to be pushovers anymore. That was I mean to be fair I don't want to spend too much time on this. That's my third. All right, so I'm gonna start. Okay. I'm okay with that. Okay, uh Morgan Riley contract Where we're sitting here now Yeah

Okay, but you know, it's not at the bottom too. Yeah, even that it's not a negative trade value contract You probably get back a Word or something? I'm okay. Okay. I'm okay with it at seven and a half if it was like Boys Seth Jones. Okay. Let's just talk about that dead in the water in Chicago Nobody wants some untradable contract, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Okay, he stinks, he's no good, he's exposed, no one's gonna touch him. That's all I heard from various people. Okay. What happens? They eat a little bit of his salary. He goes from unworkable conditions in Chicago He goes from unworkable conditions in Chicago to a great scenario for the Florida Panthers who is arguably the best player on the ice in game seven and now he's doing it for Florida

now. Okay. That's to me that that gives Morgan Riley and a bunch of those guys Carlson in Pittsburgh it gives peep teams hope that just because it doesn't work here it doesn't mean I can't make it work there right how about a good move sprinkle it in the Jake Muzzin trade yeah Muzzin's pretty high on my list of trades yeah like. Yeah, we're gonna look back in the Brendan Shanahan era, we're gonna say, what could it have looked like if he would have been able to stay healthy?

He missed two playoff runs right when he was basically the best defenseman. Yep. You know? And if you had him, you wouldn't have had to go out there and spend it on Jake McCabe. Yeah. He was, and the trade was Dersie, which hurts.

I mean, he's, I mean, not terribly. Carl Gunstrom. Muzzin made up for that. Yeah, and a first round pick was, which was Tobias Bouillonfoot. So, that was a good trade for the Leafs, and I loved Jake Muzzin, and his first game, I remember he hammered somebody and scored a goal,

and I was like, oh my God, I love him so much. He was at home before I got home. Can I give you a positive one for me? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. See if we have a five on my list. Stolars. Yes.

And I know at the very beginning we're like, okay, can he stay healthy, can he stay healthy? And lo and behold, he couldn't stay healthy. But what he gave the Leafs to win the Atlantic division and solidify that they were gonna get out of the first round was way more than I ever thought. And the goaltending was as spectacular as I've seen. I don't know how far I gotta go back,

but it was right up there with Curtis Joseph and at Belfort can I ask Felix pod then? Can I ask you a mean unanswerable question? Yes, do they beat Florida with him as a starting goal? I think it's a fair question if if if he would have been able to stay healthy. I think it's a fair question It's worth asking but It's a fair question could he have stolen game three three and game seven I don't know no it's not I don't think game five or game seven are part of the equation for me I really don't but it's game okay okay for me remaking the decor like Carlo and Tanev have made the puzzle pieces fit for the first time

So this is I so I could move to the last 11 years Hold on are this pass off season book? Yeah, but a lot of them are yeah a lot more But I bypassed Carlo and I go straight to Benoit. Yeah, okay He brought in Benoit to me was bigger than Carlo. I was shocked. I remember watching Benoit in the first exhibition game going, that guy can't skate. And he ended up being as important as Chris Tanev. They have a, yeah, it's interesting. They have a... He was a beast.

...a decor. He was excellent. And I'll tell you another great move. They've got him, they him three years for four million if that guy was going into ufa right now Someone's gonna give him for a year Okay, so those are things that happened recently good things like I have there's some that are I can't wait to find out I have good or bad. I have the 20 This is a good good moves section and you may disagree with yeah I agree with it this but I thought the 2023 tread trade deadline was really good getting Ryan O'Reilly Jake McCabe

Shen and then having either have her Sandy I have it on bad So I knew like I knew that you would have it on bad Yeah I have it on bad But they got McCabe out of it like they still have McCabe and they signed him with that contract They two million here Easton Cowan who is their top prospect and really the only hope for the future really outside of that is Nick part of that was not healthy. He wasn't that that wasn't that year I know but I okay then I have Nick Foligno

Yeah in in that and I have Ryan O'Reilly who should never have been traded for unless you ahead him on an extension Coming you needed to lock him down He's the one guy that you could not afford giving up those pieces and having him walk out the door. Mm-hmm That's why it's bad for me. There's some big ticket stuff still to come, but I just think the thing is I There's some big ticket stuff still to come but I just think the thing is I Guess I look at that more of through a fan's lens in terms of like What that meant at that time and the departure for Kyle Dubas and what like ultimately that kind of meant you know like and we were on air that day and Pure angle got traded Sandine got traded.

It felt like half the roster was completely different. And it was like, it was like seven guys, they got a Charlie and Lafferty. Oh yeah, right, it's like, Schenz on, like what, this is a completely, it was a departure, it was exciting. It was the first time they got past the first round with that team.

So like, I do look back on that as a positive. There's definitely negative spin you can put on it with the Ryan O'Reilly stuff, but I thought that was a really good trade deadline for the least. Bad oneilly stuff, but I thought that was a really good trade deadline for the Leafs. Bad one? Yeah, let's go. Okay, this is the worst one.

Not the worst one, but close to it. Spending seven and a half, this is all in one off season. Spending seven and a half million dollars on Andre Kasha, Nick Ricci, and Peter Muraszek instead of paying Zach Hyman $5.5 million. Oh! and Peter Muraszek instead of paying Zach Hyman 5.5 million. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I have not paying Zach Hyman 5 million number two.

Rich was great. Number two. That gave me the heebie-jeebie. Kasia, Richie and Muraszek, seven and a half million bucks instead of Zach Hyman. Could you add Hyman for five and a half like he got? I'm sure. That's one that could you had Hyman for five and a half like he got I'm sure That's one that letting a man go

was like you can make one of the one of the things great the toughest decisions on and then watching him and what he's been able to do with Leon and Connor and how much he got better and do we think, do we look at him as a 50 goal scorer? No, but he is the real deal. You knew, they knew that he was the type of guy who would have longevity by the way he takes care of himself off the ice. He's a pro, he is in the gym, he's a nutrition guy, like you knew he was was gonna stay good. You know what I have as the top best thing

that they did in 10 years? You traded for Zach Hyman for Greg McCabe. Greg McCabe. McCabe. Sorry. He's got an arm for a leg. Sorry. That's, come on.

That's a gift from the hockey gods. Yeah, that's the best thing you think they've done in the last 10 years. I mean, it's the biggest clear win. Yes, the biggest clear win. I think signing Chris Paneth is the number one best thing. Yeah, okay, for sure. You're near one of six, pal.

Let's wait on that one. Okay, so I think the second worst thing that happened, which is like, kind of encompasses two eras and two separate things that happened, was signing Patrick Marlowe and then what happened because of it. See, I have that as number three. Okay, so we have our two flipped.

Yes. But I think. I have that as number three. I think it was a disaster for Kyle Dubas to have given up a first-rounder to get Marlo off the books that cost you Seth Jarvis. And you know why they got the, you know why they got to get the money off the books? It was to pay Andreas Jansson and Casper Casperi cabinet who neither of them were on the roster I think a year, but he didn't have to do it

But didn't have to do it what he what ended up happening was Kyle rushed it eat Marlowe for another year. Just eat it. You weren't ready to win that year. Yeah Why are you rushing that but that's not your ready to win that year. Why are you rushing that? That's not your year to win. They didn't believe that. And was that the year they lost to Columbus? Sorry? They lost to Columbus that year or Montreal?

No, it was before that. Earlier. Maybe one of the Boston ones. They thought they were ready to turn the page. They thought they were ready to turn the page. And they weren't. You just got too horny too fast. Yeah, I do I do But the other part of that is it was a bad signing by Lou. I have that when they signed him Yes, they picked the wrong

Mentor oh, yeah guy Where it's like maybe in retrospect that wasn't the right guy to bring in here and then they paid him way too much and Dubas Made a mistake Trading a first like pairing a first round pick to get rid of a six now is a terrible move Yeah, but I got it Lou has to have some fault in it because it was a bad signing from the start I got you guys have these things at two and three I have three things that I consider worse than anything really I know I know you're gonna Okay, mine's number two. Well, I mean I have a

Yeah, I mean obviously number one is cadre cadre there's no I mean it's the worst by far Well, no, well, well, hold on Don't have the worst. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think I have, I know what you got. Do we need to go to break? Yeah, break. Okay. Let's go to break. And we will tell you the number one reason why the Leafs are in this mess after the break. Welcome back to the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Leaf Hour edition of our program. Nick Kiprius, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee as we go over the best and the worst decisions

over the last decade with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Can I do a good one? Just because I feel like we're about to do a very bad too All right. Yeah, signing Jason Spetsa was really good Off of Dallas he came in here and gave them a veteran element He cared some big playoff goals need Neil Pionk in the head, but he I I've I'm with you for sure. He was a good guy. He gave everything he had. Yeah Great fake clapper then you would cut out to the outside to the top stairs I'm okay for sure with with Spetsa

You know and I think Max patch right he should be remembered in that kind of that that same kind of feel I just want to do this whole the guy the guy the guy you squeeze everything you could out of Max patch ready I tip my my cap to him, for sure. Good year. Okay, one more positive? Sure. Drafting, Matthew Nyes.

Yeah, I had him. 57th pick overall. I had that. A few years ago, right? And yeah, could have used a couple more of those guys, but at least he's there and he's not going anywhere. I don't see an offer sheet being a threat in any way, shape or form.

So I loved his comments in the post interviews that I love it here and I don't wanna go anywhere. Not even thinking about that. Awesome. You know, it's funny is like other teams, they draft multiple of those guys. They get like three guys that are really good from the draft outside, you know, okay is allowed. So okay bad one, though Do I just go straight to my okay worst one so in ten years both of you guys

Don't have Nazm Kadri as the worst move. No, I have him I have like a list of three that there he's in there Can I guess what yours is gonna be? Can I guess? sure Letting Lou Lamarello go for Kyle Dubas No, okay. What is it? Tell me

Mark Hunter for Kyle Dubas Mark Hunter For Kyle Dubas Mark Hunter Not as a thought Really you did to mark hunter would never have damaged the Toronto Maple Leafs as much as Kyle Dubas did I Can't it's hard to disagree with that now. I I Don't know. I'm just telling you, you know me in the London nights thing, man I'm like, yeah, whatever. I don't know buddy. This guy this guy do this damage them

But I I'm okay with the idea that maybe hunter would have taken them farther. Yeah Damaged is the best word I can describe where they are today Over ten years. They are bruised fruit. Okay You know, does that trickle into the decision of Kadri for? Kerfoot and Berry. And Berry. Yes. Like, I mean, it trickles down a lot. Right. And we just, you know, a lot of the list was under his watch. Yeah, a lot. lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my number one. Here's-

I tried not to do just do this. All related to your point. My number one is the contract negotiations for Nylander Marner, their previous ones. And Matthews, if you want to lump him in there. Because it all went haywire after that. That was Nylander dug in and they caved at the 11th hour. They never should have caved.

They should have said, fine, stay home. And send a message that they won't. The December one. That went to play in December. Whatever the last second was, he signed. And he was horrendous when he came back from that. Useless when he came back, didn't even help the team. So bad.

And now you've sent the message that, just wait me out and I'll get there. The next year, Marner holds out. Not at the first. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on Marner never held out You missed the first day camp. I Don't think so. Yeah, he did. Definitely. Okay one day camp one day camp, but if they had any he never held out He never he didn't he didn't miss a game No, he didn't but he didn't show up to camp because he didn't have his contract. But that's fair, I need a contract. He didn't hold out.

So it's fair when Willie does it too. My point is, name best. No, Willie went to December. He held out. But the only reason they caved to Mitch when they did is because they had this precedent where they went with Willie as long as they did, and then Willie came back and was garbage.

And they didn't want to go another year with another star young star who holds out till god knows when he comes in and his guard hold out he missed he held out a day of training camp but is that a holdout or not no it's not a holdout let's see if i stop it okay okay whatever come on it's embarrassing that you sit there and say you held out holding out means Because you want to get money withholding your services. You're not showing up. Whatever else does because you want more money That's what happened. Yes. He missed a day whatever it was. Okay semantics. It's okay. Yes, it's all right fine Fine if it's semantic. Yeah, so he at that point it felt like Marner grinded them for every nickel he could,

just the same way that Willie did, and in both cases they bent, and then it started to feel like it was everyone trying to get their own piece of the pie. It's a very philosophical one. Good. I like that. I'm with you on Dubis screwing this whole thing up

with the contracts, for sure, and I'm not gonna get into what you think these players deserved or what they didn't or what they were entitled to, whatever. We can debate that all day long, but you are 100% on where it took a turn. But I will go even further back and I'll pin this on Lou right now.

Okay. Okay. Is that when all of these kids came in at a young age, there were the B bonuses. Do you remember this? Mm-hmm. The B bonuses. I only remember this because you've told me about it. Lou didn't give individual B bonuses out

Right. No good. This is my philosophy to devil's thing. It's my thing. Don't focus on individual things Everything's a team. I don't want you going out there trying to score so you can get more money when it doesn't bring in the team together Right fair enough. Okay, so it's almost. The top four and five guys get B bonuses. They're built there because they're only getting minimum wage 850, right? At the time, I don't know, 825. Like it's not fair that Eric Lindros when he was probably less than that. When Eric was a rookie, he came in and made more money than Wayne Gretzky who had 55 records at the time. So we can't do that, but we can have him play for minimum. So we're gonna give you these B bonuses. But Lou didn't wanna give them out.

So Mitch didn't get them and was told, no one's getting them. What happens a year later? Lou gives them to Austin Matthews. We have his first overall pick. So the other guy was a fourth overall pick. Yeah, it's the big difference between first and fourth. No, but if it's a non-principal thing.

It's a principal thing. All fourth pick overall guys got them. But it's one thing, it's one thing when you're told though, no one's gonna get them, so you're not getting them. But don't worry, no one's gonna get them. And I think this later, 12 months later, that guy got them. I didn't. Yeah. And I'm out $1.5 million. And I think this is where it got ugly. The guys at

the top kind of started to just yeah, frustrate the guys. Yes. And it's like now I got to catch up. I didn't get my money. You got your money. Why did he get his money? And it's like now I got a catch-up. I didn't get my money. You got your money Why did he get his money and it just caused like a snowball effect where it's like? Everybody's out for their money now and you remember the people been tweeting the hockey hockey news cover of like, you know These guys is he had planned the parade cover not you know It's not if the win a cup it's how many and it never felt like those guys gelled I don't feel like they're pals off the ice. I don't feel like there's you know yeah it didn't work correct um do a couple more oh yeah protecting Justin Hall and curfew and

the letting Jared McCann go thank you list good one on my list what was that number seven for him had him and he scored 40 the next year or something, didn't he? Justin Hall and Kerfoot. I'll never forget that damn fish. I saw this fish with, remember they were doing like the, it was the fish and I was like, they have the Kerfoot one, they're letting Kerfoot go. And it was McCann. You remember that? I do remember that. Kevin Weeks. Ridiculous. Ridiculous, you know seal so funny that we're this far along. We've done the worst I feel like I've heard everyone's best the name Mike Babcock or Sheldon Keith hasn't come up and those are pretty pivotal voices in these in this era

I had letting Keith come back after they blew a three one seriously to Montreal on my list I was torn to be like firing Babs was a mistake I he's kind of vindicated with a lot of his policies might have been the right right I didn't get to it but I had not letting Sheldon go with Kyle Dubas yeah keeping them for one more year. By the way, my Babs comment was not about Sheldon, who I obviously worked with and I think he's a great coach, but Babs did have a pretty good pulse on this team it felt like. No, Babs was just not a nice man.

And he did not treat Mitch Marner well, and we know that obviously with the list Yeah, I mean we had we had nas on I don't what was that? We interviewed nas when he wrote his book talking about the the Babcock stuff with that list and how things went I got a couple I mean this goes this one goes way back, but signing Nikita Zaitsev to a seven-year, $31 million contract, Lou Lemurello, that was an interesting move. I forgot that happened.

What year was that? Let me look. 84 years ago. Nikita Zaitsev contract. He had like a half-decent year when he first came over here. He signed that and then they 2017 2017 okay yeah and then they had to and they traded him to Ottawa god they struggled finding D they did the Oh Zhiganov thing and they they did the who

did they love Marinson for years there? Can I throw you one more? I got like four. Yeah. Okay, I'll throw you one more that, regretful, not bad decision, just regretful. Not signing Corey Perry. Yeah, I got it.

Corey Perry, was it Wayne Simmons? I think he went Wayne Simmons that year. I mean, I like Wayne Simmons. Me too. It's not about Simmons, but Corey he went Wayne Simmons that year. Yeah, I mean I Like Wayne said me too not about Simmons, but Maury Perry scored 20 times this year. It's unbelievable what he's still doing and how hungry he is and just He's just a winner. Okay, he's just a winner This one I we've praised the recent haven't heard this one name yet. We've praised the recent moves And a first-round pick in Grebank and for Scott Lawton, we may not be looking back on fondly So sorry, sorry to say it, but I mean he scored one time not or two times and

One time on his own net and the pulse nuts. So it's a lot of sardis. Sorry, I'm sorry. I love lot in two, he cares. But remind me if we put Lawton and Carlo together, what the trade looks like. Two first rounders, a fourth, Grubankin and Minton. And retention, a lot of retention.

Would you make that trade today for Carlo and Lawton? Well, they lost, no. No, no, right lost, no. No. No. No, right now, no. I'll tell you what, I like Carlo a lot and I know more than you. And I think he's gonna be here for years.

I think they're gonna resign him. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. You know, big Ray Chudy. Yeah. But hopefully getting a fist fight helped him. I really love Lawton and the presence that he brought. But Lawton's the guy that you have to find on waivers.

He's the guy that you have to find in the summer, in August, for a sixth round pick. He wasn't good enough to be your addition to help at center. He wasn't. He wasn't. How can we not have Jack Campbell, five year contract? They didn't sign him to it. Oh no, Edmond too. But Jack Campbell, contract they didn't sign Jack Campbell period they traded for ya

Yeah, and he was the guy at the heart of the Montreal series in the end. Yeah, I was okay with the trade Mentally abused himself. They didn't pay him. They didn't pay him. They got away from it Oh, you know, they got away from it. They didn't I think what they trade Trevor Lewis for him But just which hurt Trevor Moore or more or. Sure more. I only only sort 30 No, Trevor Moore's good player. You know, I got the kid. He was okay. I guess at the time they Goal, they needed a goalie. That's just nice guy They needed a goalie and he was out of this world for them scared about this. I know out of this world for them he was like

Amazing he had some stretches. He had some stretches. Where he was out of this world. We probably said Vezna in a couple of conversations. Buddy, I said- Ilya Samsonov, anyone? I compared him to Kujo. Then the Kudagra that we haven't brought up. Before we break- No, I got another negative one.

No, we need a positive. No, I don't. I know. We'll turn it into a positive. I'm gonna go, oh, good luck. Malgen for Marchman. Oh no, that's my worst one. Oh buddy, I have that one too and I didn't see it Mason Marchman

for Maligan. Here's what makes me most upset about that. They developed him. They put in years into his development and had no reason to move off of him. He wasn't cost in anything. He was big and young and could score and was he has a sense for the net. I want you to say it. Damage. Damage. That was Kyle Dubas's. Oh, sure.

That was a damage deal. Sure, yeah, that's damage. I know why they traded him. They thought he couldn't stay healthy. They believed he would never play with any consistency that they could trust he would be in the lineup. Buddy, they're so hard to find, those guys. But to me, it's like, if he plays at all, it's a win.

It's a major bonus. Why don't you just find out first? Find out. Let him get hurt a couple of times before you put him to the curb. Now we can lighten it up the World Championships for Spencer Lynn. Is that true?

I don't know. Okay, good one. Joseph Wall's contract could be good. Has anyone mentioned John Tavares yet? Yeah, I think you could mention that as a bad one. Well, see, that's why he hasn't been mentioned. I feel so bad for him. It's not clear. No, it's clear.

No, it's not clear. What's that? It's clear. I'm coming to his defense. I'm saying if John Tavares is signing, you can't say that the addition of a guy who left for no assets and scored 450 points and led the team as a captain and all that was a terrible move. It wasn't terrible.

No, no, but it's not. No, and he never pretended to be anything he wasn't. But you overpaid him and it caused everybody else to get overpaid. That's the domino effect of his contract. It wasn't him. Yeah, it's the part of the same thing we talked about with the Nylander-Marner stuff where it's like... And you needed to get Marner signed. What happened was, is they offered Marner a contract that he turned down, and instead of bumping it up, you left it

alone. Then you went to go sign Tavares when you should have had him done before you signed Tavares. You needed that deal done. So you think that affected Mitch's money? Before. Yeah, buddy. He's looking Mitch at that point went from 60 points to 94 and now it's like between Matthews and Marner it's like buddy. I love the team is scoring. How can you tell me that that guy's worth more? They didn't have a leg to stand on they're like you're right. So we'll take you to 10-9, right another bad one signed Joe Thornton yeah who's that signing Joe Thornton yeah listen it's to your point like what mentors did you bring in it's dunk and I saw I watched

24-7 what's the big deal we're in first place you first and late for reasons so I'll never I'll never we you would have liked the guys at the bottom of the lineup to have had more success Because I like I liked Betza. I liked Simmons. I liked Clifford. I liked Marlowe I liked Thornton, but they combined hadn't won a ton of Stanley so go out this summer and find some winners. Yeah Yeah, so and the Jake McCain contracts really good Okay Wow Wow, sorry. I did do a mail bag.

I have literally 150 questions. I didn't do that. Are we going tomorrow? No, we don't. We're only five to six tomorrow. Oh, we are. Do you know what we can't call for? It's winter here now.

Okay. Will we be more negative than positive? I think so. All right. We go national. Hey, Rick Taukett's gonna join us. Cool. And all of Famer Kevin Lowe. We go national. Hey, Rick Tuckett's going to join us and Hall of Famer Kevin Lowe. We go national next on the Real Kipper and Bourne show.