Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Buds Bound for Big Changes?

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with a look back on the Bruins' win over the Panthers in Game 1 yesterday and if it changes their thoughts on the Leafs at all. Then, they look ahead to Friday's press conferences and whether Shanahan's presence answers questions about his future with the franchise. Later, they discuss Sheldon Keefe's status, Craig Berube as a favourite to replace him and other options in the coaching market. Finally, Luke Fox (31:27) shares his takeaways from the Leafs' locker clean-up day, what the team can build on for next season and their plans for pending UFAs in Domi, Bertuzzi and others.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

we are live at kiprios justin bourne sammy mckee derrick brandeo and david sisboomba with you for the next two hours start off this hour on the leaf edition sports net 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6 p.m. If you don't catch us live, download us at any time after dinner. Yeah. Walking the dog.

That's a great time. Okay? Going for a stroll with your wife is a good time to download us. And listen to it on AirBug. And listen to our show. Right? Just hold her hand.

It'll be enough. Trust me. I'm listening to Kip and I yell at each other about sports. That's it. So, we sit and wait. Is there a Leafs hour still? It is the Leafs hour. We're still doing it?

We are still doing it. Okay. Are you okay with that? Is there anything else to say? Is there anything else to say, Sammy, about the Leafs season? Is there anything going on with the Leafs? Okay, you want to know what's going on in my brain? Oh, God.

There's a lot, first of all. But hockey-wise, we'll just stick hockey-wise. Kazoos and ping pong balls? Yeah. I watched the Boston Bruins play the Florida Panthers last night. And I was like, are the Leafs elite defensively? Oh, no. I'm like, I thought the Panthers.

Oh, no. I'm like, maybe they shouldn't fire Sheldon. What is going on? I'm all twisted up, boys. When you're wired like we are to present an hour show daily. Everything is content. Chris for the mill, as Jeff Merrick says. And then you go to last night.

You're watching, but you're not watching like you're watching to prepare for an hour show on the Boston Bruins or Florida Panthers. What does this say about the Maple Leafs? What does this moment say? So I was on at an establishment I was at after baseball last night, so I had it on. I didn't watch as closely. And then it was on my in-house feed here today

when I got into the office, saw from the start, watched the whole game over again. So I watched it twice, if you can believe it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, well, the Leafs did a better job of limiting them defensively. Maybe Sheldon Keefe's systems are actually better than we once thought, and maybe we should run it back.

Oh, my God. It took 18 hours or something. Twist it up, boys. I don't know what to think. All right. We're pretty much 24 hours past Sheldon's comments yesterday, meeting the media, player availability. We heard some.

Yes, we talked about everything from Mitch Marner's. We are God's comment. Did you see? We talked about the Toronto Sun. Did you see the Toronto Sun cover? No, I didn't. Oh, my God. You guys did it?

No. Oh, it was so good. It was OMG, and it had him reaching out with a hockey glove and the other finger. Oh, doing the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, it's really good. Really good. I mean, that's as good as it gets. Totally taken right out of it.

Of course. Just run with it. Run with it. It's as good as it gets. Totally taken right out of it. Of course. Just run with it. Run with whatever you want. It's Toronto Sports Media, buddy. We got to run. It's been a hell of a playoff run for the cover of the Toronto side. They've been hot. They've been hot.

Really, MVPs. Right? Maybe MVP. The only people that come out ahead. So between that and what we heard from yesterday, any afterthoughts or Morgan Riley's comments we didn't really talk about? I thought Morgan was great yesterday too.

Yeah. It's just like, come on, am I really going to do this? Am I going to tell you how close I think we are? Yeah, we played that one yesterday. Yeah. You know, I mean mean just listening to it again over and over again, I think he had the perfect

like, we don't know how close we are. We can't get out of the first round. How can I sit here and tell you how close we are? So you don't think the captain Can someone tell me he's hurt? So you don't think the captain coming out and saying, we're right there, was the right thing to say? Listen, John's different. He's a robot different yes

he's programmed differently it's like if you were to to build a hockey player you know you'd you'd have those sound bites programmed in yes it's and he's woody and toy story he doesn't leave he doesn't there's a snake in my boots he doesn't He does not get out of his lane. We're right there. It's like, you know, his favorite word to use in his post-game comments is obviously because it's obviously is safe to him. Can't get in trouble using the word obviously because I know it. You know it. Everybody knows it.

I think you just said something important, whether you knew it or not. Safe. Everything about this organization, the players, whether you knew it or not safe everything about this organization the players the comfort it's all safe obviously you know nylander says we believe that you know this core four can do it we believe that you know we're good john says we're right there they just keep everything the same we're all comfortable we all have our spots we're all gods here we're all comfortable and maybe it should be a little less safe. Well, and that's where we're going to get to this Friday,

where MLSC President and CEO Keith Pelley, Maple Leaf President and Alternate Governor Brendan Shanahan, and Maple Leaf General Manager Brad Traylor-Living will be together, available at the Ford Performance Center, Friday at 10. 30 a.m. and there's not a snowball's chance in hell they're going to come out and be that safe that safe guy anymore or that safe organization anymore it just that won't fly Friday JB JB. Obviously, yeah. It won't fly. I don't know if that means that they won't do it.

The one thing I'm growing more convinced of, I'm not convinced that it's the end of the line for Shanahan, right? They've previously, they've announced him now for Friday to be there alongside Keith Pelley. Oh, he's not going anywhere. Shani? Yeah. Okay.

I would say that's news. To JB's point, how do you present him Saturday? Yeah. I 100% expect Brad Tree Living and Brendan Shanahan and Keith Pelley to be all aligned on the message Friday. What do you make of the move of the press conference is there any anything newsy to you there is there anything yeah interesting like because it was announced that it was going to be just management there was no names involved and they announced it for thursday and then yesterday

they tweet out from their super secret media account that i could follow that it's going to be on friday and they named everybody so for them to switch a press conference, are they looking for the Friday news dump? They're going to do it at 5.30pm on a Friday or something? It's just very interesting they moved it. I said whether somebody's got a dentist appointment or they're shopping for a coach, it buys them time. It buys them time. It buys them

time to gather facts, come up with a message, get a sense for the market, let things cool down a breath. Time. Because that's when the three of them say we understand it's not good enough we understand it's a results-based business that's why we're moving on from the coach today and that's why we're gonna continue to all options are open you know in terms of players no one is safe well it i think we're going to hear the word disappointment a lot uh we're going to hear the word patience or we're running out of patience but that patient word will be used i

think results has to come up on friday unacceptable will be used and then we're going to hear that there's lots of positives, right? We're going to hear Matthew Knives, positivity. We'll hear Easton Cowan, Minton. We'll hear those. We got some names coming up. God, people are angry at this press conference you're creating right now. No, no no no yes they are well listen

yeah they are but like you talking like you doing like your little pretend press comments over there I'm just starting to steam I'm like I'm not ready for this can they do it next Friday can they push this to Friday of the long weekend where I can just be like I'm just trying to prepare you guys a little

bit here that's all I don't think and i hey who knows by then maybe thursday they they fire sheldon and friday they announce craig brooby i don't know i think i think i don't know how much time there is for that but i don't get the sense for uh that that a keith pelly right now is sitting there going well we got to give him something by friday i think it's going to be a low event kind of friday i don't think he feels pressure to make sammy feel better by firing anybody do you think shanahan with having one season left on his contract would be if you're not getting rid of him then are you keeping him longer or right now i guess walk him to ufa right now i get a sense that it's a non-issue yeah brendan's contract status is not an issue

obviously he knows where the bodies are buried and everything that's happened the last decade so i'm sure keith he's a great resource still to keith pelly and to cut that off without having him around for a while is probably not great so i think you know brendan janahan is an incredibly impressive guy for sure i totally agree you're around him and like i went to like a sports net cup thing like in the middle of the season and you don't really hear him talk a whole lot right and we were there with a bunch of different clients from all the different sports and stuff and he came in and he talked to everybody for like 25 minutes took question answered questions and he's just at an ivy sports conference too he's great and you just hear him talk about hockey yeah and if you're keith pelly you're like oh my god like you get why you'd want to stick with it he's an impressive guy

he's like it's brandon shanahan he's got over 600 goals cups hall of famer unbelievable You get why you'd want to stick with it. He's an impressive guy. It's Brandon Shanahan. He's got over 600 goals, cups, Hall of Famer. Unbelievable. The only thing you have against him is they haven't won. Otherwise, it's been a well-run organization that makes the playoffs. One round win. Yeah, that's it. Which is pretty important.

And so it is. It's still hard to kind of talk your way out of that too. It is, but the president I don't think of as being as responsible for the product as I do general managers. Until recently, presidents didn't seem to have anything to do with it. Again, this goes into the conversations that Brendan's had with Keith Pelley. Like, hey, I entrusted Kyle Dubas. Yeah.

He made those trades. I didn't, and I'm here left holding the bag. Maybe that makes me a wiser man moving forward. We don't know where those conversations are, where they begin and end on total accountability and where things had Brendan Shanahan's fingerprints on them and where they didn't. So the one thing that we did talk about yesterday, at least I did,

is that there's different scenarios for change that doesn't include Brendan Shanahan losing his job, meaning i.e. a coach, meaning i.e. a player personnel, right? Behind the scenes organizational status of do we need new scouts, do we need different visions for free agencies and all of that. So change can come in many forms. I think they're going to mention that there will be changes, that we're out of patience.

That'll be important to emphasize. And that may be enough. That may be enough. Yeah. Like they say they're going to do it. That may be enough. It may not be enough. Now, that may be enough. Yeah. But they like, they say they're going to do enough. It may not be enough for you, Sammy. They're going to go political on this and like make false promises and be like, yeah, we'll change the scouts.

And it's like, that's not running it back. They won't, they won't finger point anything. They'll just say that we were making changes and this is unacceptable. And that has to be enough for you, Sammy. Because that's the way it works. That's the politics of the game. So, I can't think. I mean, how much time are they working with the PR groups and everything to prepare for this press conference? Because I can't think.

I mean, we did last year after the Leafs lost in the second round. Where we got that electric Kyle Dubas press conference. And then he wasn't even supposed to speak. He chose to. And then he got fired. And then they had the Shanahan one, which was one of the most unbelievable press conference I could ever remember doing in this business.

It was amazing. But I can't think of a press conference that has more anticipation than this Friday. Like, I know it's probably going to be a similar message, but, like, heading into it, to let it rot for this long, you're letting us sit here. We're going to do, what day is it today? Tuesday?

We're doing three more shows talking about a press conference. Everybody's writing, talking, podcast, everything. And you're going to get an NPR-level thrill ride of... They don't care? But why don't they care, Kipper? Why don't they care what people think about them? That's the whole thing. I know I'm just a fan. I'm not being that smug to say

no one cares. It's just not the priority is to look after the masks that are screaming at the top of their lungs. That's not the first thing. The first thing is to do is what is best for the organization.

And that's Keith Pelley coming in. He just, he officially took the job in April. Okay. So now do people really expect that he comes in in April? And I know that he probably asked a lot of questions behind the scenes to prepare for this, but do you really expect him to have come in and said, well, if they go, if they lose in the first round, I'm firing this guy.

Or if they get to a conference final, he gets to stay. Or if he wins the Stanley Cup, I give him a lifetime contract. So you guys talk hockey with people. Hasn't the perception to you been that like, oh, Pelly's coming in here to be the guy that, the Grim Reaper kind of thing. Like that's the perception I get from fans. That's what people think about him.

So is Keith Pelly now going to let Brendan Shanahan go and not have a replacement for him? Or is the replacement that, to Elliot's point, you eliminate the president's job and you, what, you just keep in the hands of Brad Tree living now? I don't know. I don't know if I want that either, boys. That's right.

So if you're sitting there going, I don't want that either, and I don't have a replacement ready, then you do what they're doing now. Yeah, you need to keep things running along smoothly while you're learning while you're making decisions it's yeah the the brash fire guy and then figure it out that's probably not the right move so i i do think that he'll be around and then i do think that that means they know they have to do something and that affects sheldon now sheldon tonight is being honored for the Brampton Hall of Fame, I believe,

which I could see them not wanting to fire him on the way to this ceremony for him. Like, I could see them hanging on there. Otherwise, what would you be waiting for if it were to happen? You're waiting for his replacement to find the right replacement for him, and that's what's going on right now. You're making calls. I do believe that there was some connection between the Leafs and Craig Berube this week. Let me ask you.

They wouldn't be doing their homework if there was not. Go ahead. They may be in a race for a Craig Berube right now with the LA Kings. He's the biggest fish on the market right now, no doubt about it. Are we sure he's the right coach for the Toronto Maple Leafs? No, that's a conversation all in itself. I know it is. It's what I'm trying to have.

But once you get by Craig Berube, you're left with Todd McClellan, Gerard Gallant, and then what? And are you convinced any of those names is better than Sheldon Keefe right now? Only guy. Oh, boy. Are you listening? My run it back radar is. Right?

I know your run back radar is blinking right now but are you listening to what i'm saying 100 and that's why i'm panicking it's just not changing it's who's up and who's better and can you say definitively this guy's better than that guy no or are you saying that i need to anymore you just need to make a change the The decision is just make a change. And second is if he's better or worse with. Yeah. I mean, if you think guys are fairly equal, you have to be different.

I think that's kind of a no brainer. The, the one I do wonder about, you know, they've done the whole spend all the money to land the big guy on the market before with Babcock. Rod Brindamore Rod Brindamore is the only guy who seems to have that accountability honesty intensity this sort of thing that it feels like this core needs who is not under contract is there any chance you could talk Rod Brindamore no I don't know what's changed he didn't take the

New York Ranger job and he could have wrote his own Babcock contract at six million. Didn't want it. Last I heard, whatever contract was tabled that was pulled off is back on right now. Owner knows Rod doesn't want to go

anywhere. Rod knows he doesn't want to go anywhere. To me, it's a matter of him getting offended like if you ground me like the way if i were rod brindamore and they were like we're trying to get you 30 below market value and grinding you over an extra 50 000 or whatever the number may be i'd be like you know what i don't even care about the money anymore the mere fact he's still there after all these years already working with that owner yeah tells you that that's not the way he thinks yeah okay and he's probably right to think

that it's smart he wants to be there his family's there he's happy what did he make as a player yeah 60 million you're right and i have a lot of respect for rod brindamore making that decision having those priorities but there's got to be a point where you're like all right now barubi as a stanley cup champion come in and say hey don't even don't even think twice that we're starting below five times five so he's in that category now so ottawa as we saw with uh travis green i think they probably capped out their salary at around 1.2, 9.5. Really? Oh, yeah.

That's awfully affordable. Well, listen, they fired, they're still paying Dorian. They still had to pay DJ Smith. So that's a budget move too in Ottawa. Don't you feel like that's disheartening if you're a Sens fan that you're like, oh, great. Like, you know, we's disheartening if you're a Sens fan that you're like, oh, great. Like, you know, we're shopping on the bulk barn again.

It's the reality of business. That's all. By the way, the Blues last two years did not qualify for playoffs, did not qualify for playoffs. That cup will carry you a long way. So I hope he's really good. Yeah. I mean, that's the next question.

And the one that you kind of alluded to there. If it is, you know, if they are talking to Berube and it seems like there's a lot of buzz out there about it, is that the right move? I'll ask you two that, Guy Satt. Like, what do you... Here's what I do think on the positive side, Sam. I think that Berube is someone who will look at the stars here and say, go kick rocks.

You know, if he doesn't like how they're playing, doesn't like their attitude, I think you could see the first William Nylander healthy scratch. You know, I think you could see something that people in Toronto have been like, can we please hold the stars accountable? I think he would do that.

I think it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard for guys like you and long term and for them that if brendan's back and sheldon's back and let's say mitch marner doesn't like the the teams that he's being offered on a trade and he starts the season that that's probably too much of the same look and judging by what I'm thinking about, Friday's conference will not match up with what needs to be said Friday. So I think if they're able to land a coach

that they're comfortable with that would push buttons and be a lot more consistent on making some of the stars nervous in November and January and April, then they make a coaching change. Make no mistake, a lot of the Leafs' first-round failings are the way they perform in the regular season and where they get seeded. The Vancouver Canucks weren't amazing in the first round,

but they got the Preds. You know, the Preds are good, but they are not amazing. You know, the Rangers get the Capitals in the first round because they have a great regulars. You know, the Preds are good, but they are not amazing. You know, the Rangers get the Capitals in the first round because they have a great regular season. The Leafs haven't done that. Carolina got the Islanders because they were great. They haven't put themselves in a spot where the first round isn't a knockdown, drag out, war of attrition.

But yeah, I mean, that's the Atlantic division. Like, you know, there's a lot of great teams where they've been a really good team, but they've just kind of been stuck in this today i don't know i i get what you're saying and it's been what i agree with it but it's just first you don't have to play in the atlantic you get the wild card too wouldn't you go to tampa this year but you would but if you finish no but if they had finished where you know ahead of the rain points or whatever then you don't so but i i know your point the atlantic's been tough but

they've done it over multiple years where they haven't given themselves an easy enough first-round opponent. For me, and there are parts of Sheldon I like, and I think I've seen growth out of his coaching over the years. Unfortunately, he can't get over the hump in the playoffs, and there needs to be some sort of accountability on that, and if it costs him his job, then so be it. I can't imagine him coming back and if it costs him his job then it's tough to imagine him coming back and doing it again like it's just it's not that it's impossible or that i think he's not a good coach

you guys know how i feel about that but to me the key in all of this is less about the coach even less about brendan shanahan but player personnel they've never gotten it right and it goes back to that simple argument can you win with four guys taking up half your salary in in the in the forward position and come friday you know whether it's brendan says it himself or someone asks him he's got to come clean i tried i hung in there with the core four. You were all right. I was wrong. But I'm going to fix it now.

Wow. You think he would say that? I don't know. I would. I wrote an article today. But then I'd have a hundred of his millions of dollars in my bank and I wouldn't give a crap. But here's the thing, though. That is, and I think that's why people, if he stays, right, will have a hard time believing that the philosophy, which that is his like core belief, not to use the core term here,

but we thought it was Dubas that was the core for a guy. We thought that like, but it seems that it was coming from above him even. Like Dubas believed it, we can and we will, but it feels like it's Brandon as well. Like, is he really going to. Did you ever, ever like to your point now like when when sheldon always spoke about you know is there going to be a change a goalie change or you know it's like we we right it's never uh it's my call it's always we're going to take it

back we're going to discuss as a group so So yes, that's the way it works. Most of the time it's super collaborative. Brendan's there, Brad's there. And then, you know, there's stuff that Sheldon was told. Part of the- Not asked, told. Part of the idea when Kyle Dubas took over the Leafs was how do we wield our financial might as an organization

to gain edges on other organizations off the ice? And that involves hiring a lot of people, a lot of opinions, a lot of cooks in the kitchen, a lot of specialists, a lot of whatever. So I do think that it's very, it's a lot from too many people. Did it work? No, it didn't work. But you got some great meals out of it.

Unbelievable. Some really good chefs. I did too. Oh, so the morning buffets are unbelievable. So you think some great meals out of it. Unbelievable. Some really good chefs. I did too. Oh. So the morning buffets are unbelievable. At least they ate well. Oh, yeah. So you think that Brandon would be ready to go off of his core philosophy of the core four

if he was remaining in place? I don't know if it'll get that specific, but I don't know if he wants to do that or not. And the other thing too is you got to be careful, too, with the message that you want to send. You still got a guy in Mitch Marner under contract. You still got your captain under contract for another year. So any message you get out of that press conference will go directly into their lap,

and they're going to have to deal with it, and they're going to hear, how does this affect me? And then you're going to also tell 31 other teams, you're saying that you're going to have to get rid of one of those guys. So I'm going to, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to make you an offer that is on my terms, not yours, because you're already told the world that you're going to make a change.

You know, you're kabuki yourself. Yeah. What? I heard that before. I hear you. No, there is. I've never heard kabuki. No. Yeah. What? I haven't heard that before. I hear you. No, there is. I've never heard kabuki. No.

I've heard it. I have heard it, and I have no idea if the context is right or not, but I have heard it. Probably haven't used that word in 20 years. Someone's going to say it's a very bad word. I was going to say it probably is. Okay. I hope it wasn't a bad word. Either way, we're pleading ignorance.

Totally. The article I wrote today was on tree living and the deadline and how, you know, the old expression, no half measures. It was such a half measure trade deadline where he didn't believe in this team enough to go all in, but he knew that he couldn't bail on the team and say, we're not going to add anything. And they kind of added a couple of Depty and Connor Dewar, you know,

and then you get middling results, is what the minnesota wild have been and then you never pick hides what his calgary flames have been same kind of thing where you just went uh are we sure could chris tan have gotten you past boston bro yes oh that was a fast yes i mean i chris tana played 23 21 per game for the d Dallas Stars killed penalties and leads the playoffs in block shots yeah and I mean like I said yesterday he's on the ice for

every good thing we'll never know how about Zdorov you don't get any goals from your back end here Zdorov scores two big goals with the Calgary or New York

or Vancouver whoever it was different team he's been on lots of teams yeah how about Adam Henrik that would have just been simply to give up a first rounder.

Yeah. Right? How about Wenberg? Backhand for me. Backhand. They're center scoring in the first round. I mean, not that Wenberg scores, but if you could have put him in the D zone,

so you could have put your boy Mitch and JT in the other end of the rink, maybe that gets you a goal. The truth is, though, Brad was gun-shy because of the damage that Kyle Dubas left him with. And that's essentially what I wrote, self-protection going on there. I can't blame him.

I can't blame him. Like, watch. You're not giving up first and seconds. But you can't blame him from a Brad Tree-living perspective. Like, they didn't have a great first- round opponent. If they go in a bit more, maybe that's the difference. And maybe there's three more home dates for Keith Pelley and MLSC to cash receipts.

You know, like, it's a big deal to move on and to take those risks. And they didn't have the chutzpah to do it this year. I mean, these are great points. And like, I'm not, you know, I think my thoughts on Dubas are very clear, but i you know i think my thoughts on dubas are very clear but i don't really have full thoughts on true living because it hasn't been

a long time that they've been with it i'm i'm open for interpretation with him i could go either way but you what you wrote today and talking about the deadline it isn't it is a conversation like their penalty kill was brutal and they brought in doer to try to fix that but it clearly wasn't enough they brought in edmonton to fix it. It wasn't enough. Didn't get a puck mover. Like, there was some misses. I think he didn't believe in the team

and said, I'm not spending too much on this. For sure. The issue, too, which you could clearly see is, okay, you had these, your core, or let's just say, you know, from the draft perspective, there was Marner, Willie, and Matthews. But now they're six years, seven years in. There wasn't enough of gap guys underneath them to support them

with the exception of maybe Matthew Nyes. And then, like, that's it. Burt was supposed to be. Domi was supposed to be. There's a lot of Pontus Humberg not from your your draft not from your first and second picks yeah after Marner yeah Matthews and Nylander yeah we'll exclude Tavares because he was a free agent but that's a bunch of the cap problems they gave those away they never there was never guys to come up underneath them through

the system through the draft they waited so long for lilligren who never came in as a top four guy legit right sandin supposed to be no it was supposed to be gasperi kapanen it was supposed to be connor brown zach hyman it was supposed to be andreas johnson it was supposed they had got they did all the way right you know they all the way and not just in brazil now wyatt johnson and thomas harley like those guys are like stars and they're 21 where are the leafs guys to help marner matthews and neilander Seth Jarvis would have been nice. That's why everyone yelling at us, well, me in particular, for being like, Lilligran is, I don't know, take him or leave him,

dress him or not. You know, what's he going to be? He's a bottom pair guy. When it's like, he's coming, he's coming. Okay, what do you think he's going to be? At what point is this going to flip into him being really good? Right, like, really good guys tend to be pretty good young. He's, like, passable now.

And I think he's going to have a good year next year and passable yeah now and i think he's gonna have a good year next year in the year after i actually do and i'm not just saying that it's just he's not a needle mover he's fine he's a nut he's your 10th number five d-man it's you're right kip they don't have they didn't have any huge hits mcmahon has become that for them and they're gonna bank on that nize is gonna hopefully be that and you're hoping cowan or minton one of the two of them, give you something. Easton Cowan heading to the OHL finals. We'll get into that.

We'll take a quick break here. Yeah, let's take a break. And then when we return, we'll talk about ways that they can improve because, unfortunately, it's not through the cupboards right now. So we'll talk Easton Cowan. We'll talk free agency and what we can expect. We have Luke, too. Luke Fox. Oh, and we got Luke Fox.

He's going to join us. And at the top of the hour? We got Marty Turco talking about the Dallas Stars. The charcuterie board killer himself. Charcuterie board. All right. Salami, cheese, and Marty Turco at the top of the hour. Can't wait.

More real Kipper and Bourne when we return. The best Blue Jays show out there. Period. Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. all right let's welcome in luke fox leaf and nhl writer for sportsnet.ca luke always a pleasure to have you on the show i know you've covered a few of these exit interviews end of the season what did you get out of yesterday? How did it differ from any other one you've covered? You know what, Nick? I think that one of the biggest things was that it didn't differ that much.

It felt like the same old people asking the same old questions, getting the same old answers from the same players. I think that's what struck me is just how familiar it all felt uh you dig a little bit deeper and i think the lack of accountability which i believe is kind of a top-down culture thing with this organization right now uh that stuck out didn't surprise me but it stuck out just not enough hey i could have been better i should have scored more goals i need to find a way to push through it was kind of we're close or there was even mention about the penalty kill making improvements throughout the series or the power play getting some good looks in game

seven and it's just a little bit of read the room you You know, there's a disconnect, it feels to me, between the players and the fan base. And I think they missed a lot of the right notes. I will say that Samsonov, you know, didn't make any excuses. Right after the game, he said, luck is for losers. He's like, you can't talk about good luck or bad luck. And I thought that was a great line. But, you know, he's probably not on this roster next year. So I don't know what him taking responsibility means.

And then the other big thing was just Sheldon Keefe. You know, it's my understanding he didn't have to speak, but he spoke. And you could tell it was tough for him. It was, you could feel the emotion right from the beginning. And he wanted to make some comments, taking responsibility before he even answered a single question. So I think he showed a lot of character, which is, you know, his and his team showed some character fighting back to get to Game 7. I just have serious issues with the roster construction and uh you know i i'm not alone but my doubts that they're

going to eventually barge through this door with the same group is is the doubts are high i'm now vaguely remembering a column you wrote earlier in the season that expressed some skepticism about the team. Was that this season or the year before? The year before, but I may have copied it. I may have copied and pasted it. Changed the date. So, Sheldon, go ahead. Go ahead.

No, no. It's just, I just think you take half your cap, you put it in five guys. It's a team sport. You need to spread the wealth a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. So Sheldon had, it was optional for him to speak. That is the understanding that he didn't need to come out there and talk.

That would have been really fascinating had he not spoken, would it not? Well, I get, it probably would have raised more questions. I mean, there's already questions. And it's kind of crazy. This is the second offseason in a row where they've just let the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs twist in the wind. I understand there's a lot of decision makers behind the scenes. I'm sure there's board meetings and committees,

and there's a lot of voices before any decision is made with this hockey team. But good on Sheldon to be out there taking the bullets. You know, and it almost felt like he was applying for his next job, kind of saying. He even said, we were joking after, remember, Mike Babcock is always going to bet on Mike Babcock. Remember that line?

Sheldon Keefe didn't speak of himself in the third person, but he did say, I believe in myself. I believe I will win. I believe this team will win. And I like that conviction. You know, acknowledging your mistakes, your failings, but saying to the hockey world, I will be better for this. And I think he's a good coach. I just think it's time for a fresh voice for this group. We're talking to Luke Fox, an NHL writer for Sportsnet.ca.

So, Luke, Friday we do know that CEO of MLSC, Keith Pelley, Brendan Shanahan, and Brad Treeliving will get together at the Ford Performance Center on Friday, 10.30 a.m. I had mentioned that I believe that they'll all be aligned in terms of the vision moving forward. What do you expect? It seems to me like it's like a united front. Like, hey, we're all in this together.

We're going to get this team on the right track together. I think, and rightfully so, one of the biggest questions coming out of this, you know, eighth playoff series, postseason series loss in nine tries, like one in eight with this group, is has the Shanna plan failed? Does he need to go? And the fact that he's going to be there and Pelly's going to be there lends me to believe,

and we'll wait. We'll wait and see what they have to say. But it would suggest to me that Shanahan is safe for at least a year and Pelly's taking his time, not unlike the way Trey Living took his time, right? You have that shield. I'm not going to fire Sheldon right away because if I fire him, then I use a bullet and the attention starts to turn towards me.

If Pelly keeps Shanahan, hey, I have a shield in front of me. I have a card to play down the road if I keep Shanahan. So what's your first question at the press conference? Do you want to try it on us? How strongly do you believe in this core? Does the core need to be broken up? And when you speak of the four, you're talking about

four guys. Five guys. I know it rhymes, four, but five guys. Morgan? You put Morgan in there. I put Morgan in there, yeah. he's part of this. A live five. No, it doesn't work. There you go.

No, sorry. Have they all gotten phone calls already saying they're safe? Yeah, looking back at that last year, that is a bit of a pivotal moment, right? There is no phone calls. They are safe. We all have no moves man where do you where do you ask me if i'm feeling safe or not but there's a conversation to be had about those

no moves i i get that that's fair so what do you think that the leafs can take away from this season that can be a part of next year's stan Cup victory. What are the pieces that they're going to hang on to to get there? You heard it here first, folks. You know what? We're focusing on the negatives from that series because they lost. One more goal. But I think Simone Benoit was a great story this year. You know, great that they got him at a cheap deal.

Bobby McMahon, if he can stay healthy, great story from this year. Matthew Nyes blew me away with his performance, unshook by the moment. You know, fantastic in overtimes. He played every period the same. Big, big guy that kind of realized he was a big guy. And him poking at David Pasternak, sticking up for Morgan Rielly and saying, no, go me, go me. I thought that was a fantastic moment.

The guy's only 21 years old. He's a bright light. So there are positives to take from this. Joseph Wall, when healthy, stood on his head. Phenomenal. So maybe he needs to have an offseason where he needs to figure out what he needs to do so he's not so fragile. So there are bright

things and you know what austin when he was healthy was good willie scored the last three goals for this team once he he got his you know migraine issue under control i thought he was good it made an impact in the games he did play so it's certainly not all bad i the other thing is the character they showed they put together two or three of the best defensive games I've ever seen them play. Positives on the Leafs. I'm glad we had that ask. Because to be honest, there was a lot.

You don't go seven games without some good things happening. Do you expect Mitch Marner to start the season? John Tavares, they've got the last remaining years on their deal. If change has to come, are they at the top of the list for you? Yeah, except for John, let's start with John. I'd be shocked if he's not wearing a Maple Leafs uniform at training camp. You know, just the tone he speaks with, he wants to stay. He's got three kids here, raising a family here.

The other thing is if you trade him you're going to either eat salary and or have to put a sweetener a la patrick marlo and we saw i'm not sure about that you think someone would take it 11 million no no no no the leafs would have to eat a portion of his last year, but it would still free up like $6 million if they ate 50%. You could add a pretty good player to save $6 million. And he's still got the ability to score 55, 60 points. And here's the biggest sweetener here is that a team that's under the salary cap doesn't care that it's 11 million dollars it's not 11 million dollars it's

minimal you're getting john tavarez for 775 000. Because his signing bonus is $10 million and you get the Leafs to eat that. Yeah. You following me? I know and that's paid July 1st maybe? Yeah. Okay, so I understand it from the acquiring team's point of view. Nick, where I would push back is the teams that have cap space are generally not

contenders. And this guy's never got, he's only gotten to the second round twice in his life. His legs are losing some of the jump. Luke, Luke, Luke, he could still help you get into the playoffs. Any team that has aspirations to get into the playoffs, he can still score.

It may not have the legs to contend as a number one or number two centerman for a championship caliber team, but he can still help you get in the playoffs. I think there will be a lot of teams interested in getting John Tavares at the right price. No, I'm agreeing with you that teams would be interested.

I just don't know if he'd be interested. Well, would he be interested in being a fourth liner here playing every other night? But he's not going to be on the fourth who's playing center who's moving up camp that's a pretty limited hole because holmberg gonna score a goal yeah uh domi you got some options hey listen how much do you want how hard ball do you want to get if you're the leafs to clean this up well it's it is a fascinating conversation again he does hold the cards i i just can't see him wanting to do it but you're

right you're right if they would be mean to him and say you're not going to play or whatever but i that's tough to see too for a guy who chose to come here, hometown boy. It's over. What do you mean it's over? Being nice is over. Yeah. Alright, well that would be a fascinating little... Is that, do you feel like,

do you have some knowledge that they feel like being nice is over? Or just from your point of view? This is just me, you, and everybody in the city. We're just throwing things to the wall here. We're just chewing the fat here. All right.

That's going to be a fascinating one. Luke's looking for a scoop now. Well, you know, you put them on the scent of a new topic. So, you know, as they head towards what is this weird Friday press conference, whatever, they've got a couple of guys who helped a lot. Played the first line in Domi and Bertuzzi, who made $3 million and $5.5 million. Both guys were good, right? They're good players for them. Do you think they'll both be back?

And if so, you know, any sense for what that might cost? No, I don't think they'll both be back. I just don't think there's going to be enough money i think they both want term i think they both bet on themselves on one year deals and now that they've gotten some spotlight and had pretty had decent series you know that slow starts finish strong finishes in my mind for both guys they're're going to want some more money. Had a chance to talk to both of them yesterday. Both, you know, as every free agent should say, they're willing to come back.

I asked Domi specifically about term, and he said, oh, well, that's not up to me. And I would say, well, you're the free agent. It is kind of up to you if you want term. But I think both had good fits. Bertuzzi said that his family really liked it here, you know, but Nolichari said similar things at the end of last year. So you take it with a grain of salt.

Max is ahead of Bertuzzi for the Leafs wanting one of two back. Yeah. Listen, I liked Max. Listen, Max showed an ability to play center. He showed the ability to run shotgun with Austin Matthews. He's shown the ability to be able to handle the market. Come on.

Those things are big. Did we ever see more than a game of Domi, Matthews, Marner all year? One game maybe? A couple bump up shifts. Yeah, but yeah. But I agree with you, Nick, in that his ability to play center was huge. And when they brought him in, they envisioned him as a winger,

and then he didn't really get his legs going until they moved him to center midway through the season. But he's not going to be a centerman when they win a playoff round in that cup next year, guys, right? And I say this with a grain of salt on there might be an outside shot that Easton Cowan could come in and maybe fill a void left by a Bertuzzi. I know it's a long shot. I know he's got another year of eligibility.

He can't be sent to the minors, but he's close. Really? He had a hell of a year, huh? He's close. That's a conversation for tomorrow. We'll get more into it. Do you want to rush such a value? That's the best prospect.

I'm willing to have that conversation, and it's legit. And you make a very valid point, and that's where you better know your prospect. I'm on Team Rush, everyone. If you can play in the league, go play in the luke i'm not a prospect at all it's legit and uh we're running out of time but that's a that's a good conversation to have okay good luck on friday pal all right yeah it'll be interesting we're watching and we're looking forward to you you know rattling the cage a little bit on Friday

I know Steve Simmons missed the last one I think he'll probably be there on Friday so he can throw some grenades in there and you can follow up he should show up with all the covers of the Toronto Sun answer your next hold it up you don't see my cover it's invisible

thanks Luke appreciate your time alright Luke Fox sportsnet.ca we got a text Hold it up. You don't see my cover? It's invisible. Thanks, Luke. Appreciate your time. All right, Luke Fox, sportsnet.ca. We got a text. Kabuki is a form of classical theater in Japan known for its elaborate costumes and dynamic acting. The phrases kabuki theater, kabuki dance, or kabuki play are sometimes used in political discourse to describe an event characterized more by showmanship

than by content. Well, it's actually a wrestling term as well, I believe. Okay. I'm more confused than ever if I used it. I don't think he did. I don't think he did either. He didn't offend anyone, and that's what's important. Whoa!

No knock on the door from HR. No, you're clean. You're in the game. Okay, that's good. That's... The Tavares. Come on. What?

You think he's going to go? Go play for the Blackhawks? It's obviously a tremendous honor for him to play for the Leafs, so he's not going anywhere. Obviously. I'm just telling you that you got to look at everything. I saw Habs podcast today talking about him going there. You're trying to transition now.

You got to talk about taking the sea off of him for next year i i gotta tell you my honest truth is that i respect tavarez and i like him and i have i really i think he's a wonderful human being but he's a problem for the leafs that not just the money but like his performance he can't he's just i don't know what his actual value is in dollars but i do think that at half the price you could probably find someone that you could get as much or more out of if you ran his different leafs career through 10 separate simulations this is probably the worst possible outcome like of how it's gone right like it's just it's you know he

signed here it's for seven years and they got out of the first round once, and like, you know. Montreal series, and things just didn't quite go. It's just gone bad. Oh, it was a winner to win a playoff round. Yeah, that was awesome. The other mistake they made, too, is the last year shouldn't have been all signing bonus. Well, that makes them more tradable, doesn't it?

No, it makes them less tradable because you can't... Or, yeah, maybe, but... Oh, you can't buy it out. You can't buy them out. Yeah. They should have set it up. If you knew that his legs would have been an issue... He knew that, too. You think his agent didn't know that?

They should have had a wiggle room where they could buy him out. It would solve a lot of issues. Help, help, alleviate. Sorry. Not solve. I don't think they got many... No one cut them any slack on those deals. Those stars. All right. Once don't think they got many. No one cut them any slack on those deals. Those stars.

All right. Once again, we solved nothing on the show. We just upset a lot of people. Or at least I did. That's all right. Okay. We go national with Marty Turco, former NHLer, three-time NHL All-Star. We'll talk Dallas Stars, Colorado next when we return.

Real Kipper and Bourne.