Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Buds' Breaking Point

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with a look back at the Leafs' Game 4 loss to the Bruins on Saturday, the series now 3-1 in favour of Boston. They get into the warranted fan reaction, the same old story for the Leafs, Matthews' mysterious illness and the viral disagreement on the bench. What's the biggest reason for the Leafs' stars' poor play in the playoffs - effort, nerves, playstyle or something else? Later, they discuss Nylander's return, Rielly's reduced impact and father time catching up to Tavares and Brodie. Finally, they evaluate Samsonov's series and debate who will get the net for Game 5.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

welcome in to the real kipper and born show we're live on sports at 590 sports at 360 and sports net plus from four to six and if you don't catch us live well you're not out of luck you can download us wherever you get your pods. And here we go. You know, guys, the game wasn't over Saturday night. Maybe five minutes, I get a dozen texts. Okay, I can't wait for your Monday show. And then I reply to all of them.

I may take the day off. Yeah. I've had 10 versions of today's show with other people off air. People have opinions for sure. And the game gave them plenty of reason to have those. As we'll have our opinion here. And we'll just, we'll let it breathe here for just a split second,

because there's a lot of places that we're going to go in our leaf edition of the, of our hour. here for just a split second because there's a lot of places that we're going to go in our Leaf edition of our hour. But before we break down anything, let me just ask you guys in terms of the temperature out there

that, you know, for Leaf Nation, this feeling they should be kind of used to, right? Well, it's not good. If you look at the past five, six, seven years, it's not an uncommon thing to be behind or feel disappointed. Why does this one feel a little bit different?

And in terms of on a scale of one to to 10 where do you have the venom out there? I'll start with you JB. I mean it's white hot glass blowing incinerator. It's hot. It's hot as it's ever been since I've been in Toronto and the venom is, there's plenty

to go around. There's a lot of people who are, frustration seems gone at this point they've lost it's much harsher than me they've lost to Montreal they've lost to Columbus they've lost to Tampa they've lost to Boston they're on the edge or on the brinks of losing to Boston again is is this different from any of the past I think it's just well all those things that you just laid out there I think it's just the accumulation of heartbreak and accumulation of frustration and having it look so similar with all the same guys so many times.

Just how he plays. It's just off. Yeah. It's just, it's not really, like, it's hard to, definition of insanity, it's one of the most favorite sayings, is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. And you've gotten insanity out of the fan base. Everybody's just sick of watching the same game

over and over in big spots. That's what it comes down to. Have some crossed the line, though? Just in terms of, like, I get fair analysis, I get fair criticism, but with some, it's just so much more personal. And I'm just wondering, like, at some point, where do we go? Like, what are we doing here?

Are you driving at Mitch talk? Mitch, all of them. All of them. And, yeah, Mitch is at the top. No question. Mitch is at the top, and he deserves his share of criticism for not producing, but it's going to go around. It's just starting at Mitch.

They lose in game five. They're all going down that path. I think it's similar to how when they make it to the second round last year and they play so poorly there that it almost discredited the first round that people pretend that the first round didn't have hold on they pretend that that first round didn't happen this is not another disappointment necessarily for Leafs fans it's how it's happening I think that's making it so much harder that it's exactly the same and they're not even close and it's the stars again

it's just amplifying things yeah and i don't think like yeah it's exactly right like there's not much more that you can say other than what you just laid out there it's just it's the same thing over and over and people are extremely sick of watching the same bad tv show over and over and over yeah you don't want to watch this rerun anymore You like watching reruns because that's what you're watching, the rerun. This one's just gone to another level in terms of, I don't know what word I can use other than... Vitriol?

Sorry? Vitriol? Weird. Hmm. Weird that everything seems to be fine after game 82. Willie Nylandander disappears for three

and then game four austin matthews disappears for the third period like weird stuff guys that's the only thing i could say it's really it is weird you know i i wrote today for sportsnet.ca one of my criticisms or of this team and you know i hear people and i i found myself watching that game going god it's so unfortunate that they don't have these guys at their best to tell if it could work and then the longer i sat and thought about it it's just like you know what this is the problem with it all that if one of the core four has a bruise the top heavy plan doesn't work it's too fragile a way to construct a team for me and that's that's how i felt you know okay matthews is sick and can't be his best well they can't win

them you know it's like the other you know you watch vancouver's playing with their third string goaltender and you would look around the league and see other teams overcoming adversity but when you're so heavily your power is all held in a few people and it falls apart but it was feeling better with the camps of the world and the man and i know he's hurt now but you know that support of bertuzzi and domey like this was different this was supposed to be different it wasn't supposed to be it to be heavy for those stars. The only thing I could say to compare that to is if, if Pasternak and Marchand don't show up, Boston's toast too.

Aren't they really? Or no, I don't know. You know, it doesn't feel the same. I think they are. I think, I mean,

you look at what Marchand's doing to the Leafs and those two games at Scotiabank arena, he's the catalyst. He's the catalyst. He's got eight points, doesn't he, through four games against, like, you know, that's what's hard for a lot of Leaf fans, too, is seeing the captain and the best player on the other side sort of show up and have your guys not do it. It's just, it's all bad.

There's no, there hasn't been a lot of positives. You mean you're pushing towards something here. What is it? No, I'm not. Okay. I'm not. I'm just, I'm just saying at the end of the day that that old cliche that's been around for 100 years your best players have to be your best or you know it's probably the number one cliche you need this time

a year you know uh our guy sean mackindoe uh wrote a good article just about how you know to there's a part of this that is like overthinking it where it's just like nothing about us should have felt that the Bruins or the Leafs are a better team than the Bruins. Like they have just beat them more consistently, more often. They did it for last six games. They're just, they're a better

hockey team. It's not some moral failing on the part of anyone so much as it's a better team. The difference for me now is that like when you see a star player go down on the part of anyone, so much as it's a better team. The difference for me now is that, like, when you see a star player go down and he's hurt and he's out for the rest of the game and they come out and they say, you know, no update or upper body or lower body,

we can kind of connect the dots. This one with Nylander and Matthews is the one that I think is driving everybody nuts okay it's like okay it's it's one thing that you don't want to reveal anything and I understand it to a certain extent but this one doesn't match up with all the rest of the hidden stuff over the years over the playoffs this is a disappearance act that has nothing behind it to even alleviate what people want to think and that's part of the issue here and i talked about this a little bit on on friday is that if you don't come out with anything then all leaf fans have to go on is one guy doesn't

want to play because he's got a headache and the other guy doesn't want to play because he's got a headache and the other guy doesn't want to play because he has a tummy ache and until you come out and tell us it's more significant than that that's all you have to go on yeah and i guess to them it's a matter of prioritizing do they care about winning the pr war or are they focusing on winning the hockey games and you know they no teams have ever been up front in the postseason about injury. So to me, it's... But you're getting killed on both sides right now.

They're getting killed. But it's not like it's, you know, with the Matthews one, you know, I guess they don't want to say if it's COVID or something, if he's going to spread it to the rest of the team. I don't know if that's what it is. Buddy, say it then because he's out anyways. But I do think Sam's right.

If it is that, then he's been around the team. And do they say, okay, now we got to. But it's different if he gets slashed in the wrist, like you said. And it's like, oh, well, we're not going to tell you exactly what it is. When you leave sick, you play two periods, you're gone. And then they won't tell you what it is. But the thing is, guys, they've told us he's sick. What do you need to hear?

The symptoms? Yeah. Well, listen, for me personally, okay, I'd rather throw up on the bench in front of 20,000 people than just disappear, okay? Austin Matthews at 50%, Austin at 40% is better than anything better than anyone else's 100%. He's that good. Yeah.

Okay. I'm sorry, but stay on the bench. If you can't play, then give me a power play. Give me something. But just disappearing like that, it doesn't fly this time of year for the Leaf fans. It doesn't. But it doesn't fly in terms of whatever this, again, this like PR war you're trying to win.

Like if they are talking about this guy is not well, we got him hooked up to an IV for, you know, liquid in the room or try giving all this stuff. He needs rest. Why can Tyler Myers come out with the flu in Vancouver and these guys can't? But see, this thing about trying to compare the things, we don't even know.

We don't know what's happening with these guys, which I understand there's frustration there, but I just don't see why we're owed it. So the only thing there left for the conclusion is when the going gets tough, this guy can't play. It's a conclusion until it's going to be. It's a conclusion drawn on whatever fantasy you're creating in your head, and they're going to give us the conclusion when they lose,

whenever that may be. They're going to say, here's what happened. And when they come out and say, hey, you know, he's had a bad flu or had food poisoning, which I don't think really lasts six days, but whatever it is, then they're going to go, oh, okay, well, yeah, that explains it. That happens all the time in playoffs, yes. That happens all the time.

After the series, you go, oh, he was playing with this or he was playing with that. That makes sense for why he couldn't do whatever. I'm not saying he's going to be validated in any of this. I just, it's such a missed, it's such an unimportant detail of this whole collapse that they're having is us not knowing what it is. Who cares?

Yeah. I mean, I understand we care. I think it just fits. I think kind of what Kipper's getting at, and I feel it, is it just kind of gets at the perception of this team, right? And people have these perceptions in their mind of what this team is. People call them soft all the time. People say they don't have the same dog in them that these other teams do that marshall does that all these teams that beat them do so that when a guy's

missing games with a mystery migraine or whatever it is no one explains it when the one of the best players in the world doesn't play the third period because he's sick everyone just goes back to their preconceived preconceived stuff feeds that exactly and i get. And that's why people like get pissed off about it. And that's why it's like easy for them to get dunked on and easy for all this stuff to be said. Because it's just, they lacked the killer instinct the entire time they've been around. And then this stuff happens and it just piles on top. It makes it worse. It does.

And I want to say, I don't necessarily know that they're going to be vindicated when they come out and say he had xyz there's a chance that i may come in here the next day and say god that was it you know you can't play through that in that big moment i still think that's up for grabs i'm just till we get there i don't know we're just doing the same thing it feels better else does it sheldon said he felt better today and he's going to make the trip and there hopefully plays I'm very confident he will but I mean they practiced today like he wasn't going to they did all right let's go to Sheldon Keefe uh for our first uh Kippers clipper uh clip nine Derek on Austin Matthews um not much update there you know he's he's uh you know luckily again we've got a couple of days here and we thought the last couple of days would help us but it's uh for whatever reason you know it's

not one of those run-of-the-mill everyday type of illnesses that sort of come and go this one has has lingered and the effects have lingered and have gotten worse when he's getting on the ice and asserting himself. So we've just got to manage that and give him the time that he needs. And obviously we're hopeful that it will turn. And if you want to follow that up with the update from today too, there's clip 12 from Keith today. Of course we're hopeful that he's available and feeling good and back to himself. So, you know, that's what we're hopeful for. But, you know, we've played well with guys out in the past.

Obviously, we started the series without Willie and had to deal with that. So, you know, in the regular season, same kind of thing. But we'll see what tomorrow brings. I do think that if there's criticism to come from this a very real criticism is the thing we talked about is that they didn't rest anyone down the stretch you know every time the team has had the chance to pursue an individual goal over what would have been better for the team yeah the team pursued the individual goal

neil under plays 82 maybe that hit gives him the migraines that he takes. Maybe something after that. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe traveling. Matthews picks up something. I mean, we don't know. But, you know, preferred to see the guys resting in games 81, 82.

All right. Hot button topic number two on a Saturday night. The disagreement on the bench uh you want to go to some sound first or you want to give us your thoughts jb what do you think uh you know i think it's so that this happens a lot in the playoffs and we remember last year was it last year the year they won the cup mckinnon's and Bednar literally screaming at each other in their face and all that stuff. And I think it's just so stark for Leaf fans to see this happen

because usually in these big moments, these four guys are just sitting there glass-faced, not doing anything, kind of staring off into space and this sort of look to them to have them screaming. This is why it's such a huge story because they're screaming at each other. It's the first time it's ever happened. It's not a look. We've seen Marner, and again, Marner criticized for throwing his gloves.

Me personally, don't like that. Don't think it's helpful. Don't think that, you know, that level of frustration's great. But he's the only one that over the years has shown that type of emotion. Say what you will, positive, negative, immature, not immature. I don't care. He's the only one that over the years has shown that type of emotion. Say what you will, positive, negative, immature, not immature. I don't care. He's the only one that's showed that. You couldn't get anything out of the other two guys

over the last seven years. So this one I found real interesting that it included Matthews and Nylander. Did it start from Sheldon Keefe giving something into Matthew's ear and then that got passed on? My understanding, and most often than not, when you see disagreements like this on the bench, go back to Gretzky and Messier because they had their share of them too,

is off of a broken play. So my understanding was that it was off of a face-off and Mitch and Austin weren't real thrilled with Nylander off a face-off, and that's where I think it stemmed from. Yeah, I don't know. That's interesting. I hadn't heard that before, but I like it. I like it.

I'm not on board that this is some sign like, sign of, like, dissension. The guys actually were really good in their interviews after about it. But, yeah, we see guys going at each other. If it's the Golden Knights doing this, you're going, look at the standard they hold each other to, you know, one another to. We're always going, who's going to grab someone in that room? You'd rather them tell each other, man, you got it. You know, we need you here.

And maybe you don't like how it plays out or how the display of emotion goes that's kind of a personal thing but better out than in as far as i'm concerned i mean the whole time the penguins won their second cup kessel and malkin were mf and each other the entire game like they were screaming at each other every shift like i i thought for me is not a i thought it was was something that you never see here, and I think that's why it was such a big deal. I truly do. And I really didn't think it was that huge of a deal, but people did.

Do you want to go to Keefe? Yeah, I do. On the bench disagreement. Yeah. I look at it as something that happens when things aren't going well. And in the past, quite honestly, that wouldn't going well. And, you know, in the past, quite honestly, that wouldn't have happened.

Guys wouldn't have talked it out, wouldn't have, if you want to call it arguing it out, that wouldn't have happened. I look at that as progress, and those guys care. I don't look at it as frustration. I look at them being upset and pissed off that they didn't deliver for the team, and they're pushing and challenging each other to get it right. Probably the better thing for me is the remainder of the game,

the next opportunities that we had, the six-on-five, all these things. They're working together. They're talking about it. They're making a plan. They're talking in the intermissions. So these guys have been together a long time, and they're pushing and challenging each other to get it right, and they know how important they are to the team. When they're not delivering challenging each other to get it right and they know how important they are to the team when they're not delivering, you know, they're they recognize it.

This team literally brought in people to be more vocal in the dressing room, right? That was part of the appeal of Joe Thornton. Reeves. Yeah, Reeves. Quiet room. Right, it's quiet room. You know, that's what Tree Living said when he came here. So they're striving for this.

Yeah, and pick it apart as you may. Hated the glove throw, though. I did hate that. And I know Kipper, but I thought that was, it just made it look so. He has broken sticks, too. I know. I hate that. I'm not a fan of it either.

I'm not. It's just, to me, it's like watching a goalie break a stick over the crossbar. It's just, it's wasted emotion. Don't let him stick over the crossbar. It's just wasted emotion. Don't let them show you. Was it the don't let them see you bleed, Kipper? Never let them see you sweat. Yeah, or bleed, I guess. It's one thing if the three of them are just challenging each other to be better.

And it's another thing to say, okay, what we're doing isn't working. And that's the only thing is that for me is is where's the extension on that disagreement is it an x and o's thing because what i'm watching saturday night to me a lot of it is coaching again i see an organized boston bruin team has purpose, that have rehearsed things time and time again. So when I watch them Saturday night, whether it's a breakout or a four check, they look like they know what they're doing or they know what is expected.

I watched the Leafs the first, what, minute and a half. Morgan Riley goes back for a puck, does a rim around to nobody and coil goes back in for pressure in the first minute and a half i think to me like so much of this has to do with with what i'm seeing wrong out of them in terms of their X's and O's their game plan first period they want to get it in deep they can't get a four check going second period they make an adjustment they try to carry the puck in off the rush maybe Nylander has a few of those maybe one of the few times that they were able to gain entry off of a rush and the other time i saw it was late in the third with mitch marner

he his goal was controlled entry off a rush other than that they they can't figure out what to do i think we've actually gone fairly long in this show to not make the observation that that was just a dog's breakfast of a hockey game i don I can't remember the Leafs looking that disorganized. Offensively in particular, like they had absolutely nothing going. They looked like they had never played together before. Like it was, it truly was one of the worst performances in a big spot. I can remember watching people said the word pathetic on repeat about it. There was just not a breath of

life to it you know my take on that kipper was just you know the bruins keep it pretty simple they pack it in the neutral zone they protect the house in front of the net and they kind of challenge you to get through them and the leafs are adamant at times about the regroup and the maintaining possession and at some point when boston has three guys up on the puck and says try to get through us you got to put it behind him and get after it and i didn't think the leafs were willing to do that for too long in the game and that allowed boston to you know to break the puck out easy and you know really keep them from getting any dangerous shots at all i mean they didn't they showed that shot chart in the second intermission it's like they hadn't they

couldn't get between the hash marks and the one that they did have there like matthew shot chart in the second intermission. It's like they couldn't get between the hash marks for the two periods. And the one that they did have there, like Matthews is in the slot or whatever, he's in double coverage. And I remember it was like a dribbler. Like they had nothing from the inside. All right. Let's get at Sheldon Keefe's thoughts on why they came out with what looked towards JP's comments. Hard to say.

I mean, you know, hard to hard to pinpoint that you know i i didn't uh i'm not sure if i would say it was lack of energy i thought that you know it was similar to how we came out uh in game three just looked a little tight. Yeah, in terms of why, it's hard to pinpoint. Yeah, it's hard to pinpoint. It's a low-event hockey game out there both ways. So that's part of it. Now, they took quite a bit of a heat from analysts i know kelly rudy gave it to mitch pretty good at one intermission i know uh b sonette did it on tnt leaned in pretty good

and the only thing i'll say about that criticism that i didn't agree with is you know he made they made it about effort that these guys need to try a little bit more and for me it's not effort you can challenge chutzpah if you like you can challenge a lack of willingness to take some pain i mean these guys are trying i just think trying in the wrong ways at time and trying differently than they do in the regular season this do you think it's an effort thing no i don't i don't i i can't believe they've been through what they've been through the last six or seven years. And then they're going to come out and have a lack of effort. There seems to be some sort of paralysis involved on the big stage.

I think paralysis is a great word. I think it's a mental thing. Yep. So I don't know what it is. How can you be this successful over the last four or five years? 100-point seasons, and then come back to Toronto and be that incapable? You know, one of the things I think that happens

is once you're in such of a narrative pit, like everyone thinks these guys can't play in the playoffs, they can't get it done. If Marner went out and Matthews went out and they both scored hat-tricks in the next three three games their playoff stats would be worse than their regular season numbers like they can't climb out of this hole they built and that to me that just piles up the pressure because even Mitch scores that great goal but it's too late for people they don't care because the narrative hole is too deep for them and I think that puts a level of pressure on guys that they can't play like themselves they don't seem free to perform yeah they're just like i've

mentioned before it's just the yips like they just that's yeah they can't they can't word there's just been two it's happened for too long like it's it's which means that's what i mean it's just it's if they had it got over the hump a little earlier like if for example they don't blow a 3-1 lead to the haves if they get past columbus if they don't lose a game seven in boston in 2019 when whatever they get past a couple times there they don't have this reputation that they all know they have and that snowballs they get by by last year. And it's out of control. And they can't get through it, boys. There's 82 regular season games, and then there's the playoffs. This team has never been built for the playoffs.

It just hasn't. And you can go get your 69 goals, and you can get your 100 points. But come playoff time, they take away Mitch. They take away Austin. and what are you left with but the thing with that kid well that's yeah i agree with that that that is a major problem but like they're trying to take away mcdavid in la and they're trying to take away mckinnon in colorado here's the difference though winnipeg those stars will go around you and they'll also go through you yes it is the difference they've got stars here that they go around you or and they'll also go through you. Yes, it is the difference. They've got stars here that they go around you,

or they don't go around at all. They go away. Okay? They go away. Big difference, JB. Huge difference. It's not apples to apples here. Well, it's apples to apples,

and the comparison doesn't come out well to the size of their apples. How about them apples? Yeah apples how about them apples yeah how about them apples and that's it puts a lot of pressure on them yeah so what are you left with nothing you're left with some goaltending some defense and some support group and right now all three of them have disappeared. All of them. So to sit there and just constantly target Mitch Marner on his own like that, to me is just, you're not looking at the big picture. They're

leaking oil everywhere. In net, on the blue line, you don't know who to dress. You don't know who to dress. You don't know who to dress. I know. Hey, Lilligren, in or out. You just invested six years in this guy to be a top four D,

and you can't play him Saturday night. But I think people hearing that would say if they don't, if Mitch and Austin were four games into this series and had five or six points each i think it'd be a lot easier to look at the other pieces and say god if that could if everything else could just help them over the hump but the way it's built is those guys be successful and then and so when they're not you don't have a chance you don't have a chance. Can't win like that. You don't have a chance. Can't win like that. And that may be where we're at. And that leads to shows that we're going to be doing perhaps two days from now about how can you win.

There's two very different conversations here. And the one conversation is, you know, a conversation we'll have lots of time to have potentially after tuesday night or there's a conversation where they come back in this in this series or whatever but the overarching thing is like does it really matter if they come back i mean if they're going to get out of the first round everybody would be happy for a minute but like are they going to beat florida are they going to beat the rangers are they going to be win four rounds like it would matter to answer it would it would matter it would would matter because at the end of the day, it would show.

It would show a resolve they haven't shown yet. Just character. Yeah. Just character. They lack character. As a team, right now, they lack character. No, I can't disagree. I mean, you read Luke Fox's article today.

He talked about the culture difference. I know Bunk mentioned on Leafs Talk that like, you know, We talked about it before the series. This is where we said it before this series started. Forwards, we gave it to the Leafs. Okay. Then we went down and then we went to culture. This is the one place boston has them

until they don't have them yeah and they've got them right now i'm just looking at the point leaders in the nhl playoffs mcdavid mccard dry sidle marshand kachuk mckinnon leckanen sabina jad hyman evan bouchard so it's like stars. Yeah. Stars. And it's not like it's, you know, Dylan Holloway at the top of the list here. Like you need your guys. Pasternak has not had a good series statistically. No. Okay.

But that guy just keeps playing. That guy gets hit. He's given hits and he's taken a lot of big hits. The Leafs have punished Pasternak. Oh, yeah. But this guy just shuts his mouth and he just keeps playing yeah you know again it's so disappointing about the timing of a matthews illness and a kneelander whatever it is so disappointing because it would have been

fascinating to see but again it comes back to it doesn't matter because it's all part of the same problem that one thing goes wrong and it all falls apart so you just can't be built that way so i i don't know i can i give you my honest because i didn't listen to anything we did leave telling me this whole time you haven't been honest i haven't why do you tell me that you need to be honest now i didn't know if i want to do this today because the series isn't over. So I don't know if I want to do it today, but, you know, the tone of the conversation calls for it. I did at least talk after the game, extremely negative,

and I still feel that way. I didn't listen to anything. I heard JB just cussed the whole time. Oh, yeah. Maybe JD. Oh, JD. Oh, no, not JD. Sorry.

It is a couple blue moments, maybe. But I didn't listen to anything. I didn't read anything yesterday. I have just been sort of tunnel vision coming into this. I woke up yesterday with almost a sense of relief, almost a sense of bit of free that it's like, I've been lying to myself for eight years here. Now I've been convincing myself for eight years that this core was going to be the one that like,

God forbid, let me see the one thing that would matter to me the most outside of family and friends, the least winning a cup. And I just, that game on Saturday night and Hey, play this. They come back and win,

make me look at it. Nothing would make me happier. That game on Saturday night, and hey, play this, they come back and win. Make me look good in it, nothing would make me happier. That game on Saturday night told me everything. I have never been more upset, disgusted, watching the first two periods of a hockey, a must-win game. I almost felt free. I was like, well, they can't run this back again because, boy, I'll never watch it. I'm quitting, boys.

Like, they're like, well, we're going to give one. Pelly's like, one more kick at the can, boys. I'm like, well, real Kipper and Bourne, no McKee. Everywhere we happen. Because I'll be moving to a cabin. We're not letting you leave. I'll move to a cabin. I won't watch one game.

You know, it's a fair point that I think that, and we're going to have plenty of time for those kind of conversations, but they would have a tough time selling the Maple Leafs without major changes. They'll have a tough time selling the maple leaves without major changes they'll have a tough time continuing to you guys may be right in where this inevitably goes yeah but if they were to win tomorrow night yeah and bring it back i don't want it i'm telling you that they've let the record show i've already bet on them to win they've done it before like they've every time you completely write them off they do hold on i have put my money on they do so don't be overly shocked it's probably it's not probable but it's not impossible with these guys every win that they have in the next however many

days just gets them further and further away from what needs to happen so you know to me it's like well you maybe you maybe you win game five oh and they come back to and i kind of remind you what their record is at home games we're gonna have weeks for that conversation i ain't doing it right now well they'll come back for game six and you know they've got six straight home straight losses one and eight in their last nine games four and twelve since the half series four and five and fourteen since the bubble listen this is how leaf fans are feeling boys i'm giving you what they're feeling this is what i've been hearing for 48 hours yeah people but we're not at least we're doing analysis i know and i'm

telling why you think i'm here i'm giving you what they're feeling i know people hate these guys right now yes hate hates a strong, and I'm using it. On that note, we do need to get a break in here. We are going to take a break. We're going to get Sammy to cool down. I'm going to hose him if I have to.

And then we're going to come back and talk about who starts game five in Boston. Samsonov or... Quiet! Oh my God. No, him.

Sorry. That was pure coincidence. Plenty more on this Le edition of the rail Kipper and born show back after these words, breaking down the top stories in hockey and Elliot Friedman every day, the Jeff Merrick show subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, and David Siss. Boom-ba. We'll continue the Leaf edition of the Real Kipper and Board Show. Do the national hour. Talk about the Canucks. Jesus. Sammy, stay with us, buddy. Stay with us. Future Mike, will you?

Follow. Let's talk. Follow the finger. All right? Oh, that was a hell of a win by my Canucks. I'm thrilled. Not easy on Willie Nylander. First of all, he was not playing particularly well going into the last

few games of more than that probably what two weeks four weeks yeah and comes in after missing the first three games has to pick up the the energy the rhythm ended up playing i think the most minutes out of anybody yeah what were your were your overall thoughts on Willie? He just looked out of sorts to me. Timing was off. Like, you know, so much of what he does is all borderline elegant. You know, like he just makes it look easy, and it looked challenging for him. His timing just wasn't.

Was it his first shift where, like, towards the end of it, he went back towards his own blue line? Near that. And he tried to do, like, his, like, patented, and he just literally spun out. No room. The stick went flying. It was not pretty.

But no room. Yeah. How many times during the regular season, especially those first 40 or 50 games, Sweden, that this guy owned the puck. Yeah. And he can do that, even against very good defenses. But nobody does it this time of year.

Well, you know. Except McCarr. But how about him versus Florida last year? I thought Willie showed that he can. He can do it. And it was a struggle. He looked like the only guy with a lot of jump. I understand why they played him more at the end.

But hopefully, new game for them in game five looks better. Play the Willie. Let's go to Sheldon Keefe. Clip 11 on Willie. It was good for him to get the game. I thought he got better as it wore on. He looked to me like a guy that's definitely adjusting to the series and what's required in the series to be able to have success.

And some of the things that he was looking to do aren't available. This team defends very well, and he needs to adapt to the series. But he will. We've discussed it and talked to him about it, and he was in our meetings prior to during the series. But it's one thing to get out there and execute. Willie's a guy that knows he can make a difference and wants to make a difference,

and I think he'll make adjustments going into the next game that will help him with. And this is where he's got to go in Boston, and if there's anybody that can gain a blue line with control entry, it's him, it's Mitch, it's Austin when they're going, but that's been far and few. Yeah.

Like I said, I don't think they need to gain entry so much as they need to get it in the damn zone sometimes. No no i think it has a big they are a rush team and it's gone yeah well i don't know they need to get it back they are they are a rush team from my opinion anyways that they're at their best offensively when they have controlled entries because they cannot dump and retrieve pucks you're right they're at their best there's no doubt about it but again it's hard against good teams to do that and those guys are among the select few who can if it's not there though kip you have to take what's there you can't just drive into the brick wall and carry on like but i mean you're you know both you guys play

hockey at high level how do you get to the middle of the ice How do you coach them to get to the middle of the ice? Because nothing else matters. I've written about it for years. I wrote a whole article about Marner like four years ago in the playoffs. You can't beat Swayman from a step inside the blue line. It's hard when you have no depth on the back end. And one guy that we haven't mentioned,

nobody mentions, gets off scot-free right now, Morgan Riley. A hundred percent. Yeah. This is our our this is leafs they're if the leafs are going this is our seven and a half million dollar defenseman two after that okay yeah so there's no layers morgan's not been bad or good he's just been but last year against tampa right dynamic he was maybe their best player in those six games. He was unbelievable. Why do you think there's no talk or zero criticism for Morgan or John Tavares who makes $11 million?

Why do they get off scot-free? No, Tavares doesn't with fans, bud. Well, here's the thing. Maybe the Tavares one. It's not as much, but he's feeling it from the fans. The Tavares one is like people relate, like people have given up. Like they, it's like,

they're not even, people aren't even, no one mentions to me anyway. Like, ah, Tavares doesn't, because there's no expectations. That's right.

Bingo. And that's in its own self sad. And you see people saying, well, you know, okay, well, this doesn't work.

They're going to trade Mitch or, you know, Mitch has the same trade protection. John does, you know, and if you're going to get, you know, move on one guy, it should be pretty obvious who would be the first guy to talk to he just he's at

a point where he can't create his own shot anymore so that's fine he can finish he can still have some utility but expectation is the answer there i i'm gonna turn into the joker if i see one more steph curry fall away risker from inside the blue line somebody to tell him to stop shooting the puck from 55 feet hey let the best goalie in the world right now feel it a little bit let him feel it but he's he can't find an open teammate and someone's going to catch him yeah well that's fine cut back put it in the corner like let give your team a chance to play offense and get a better shot you don't score in the nhl from from wristers from the top of the circles anymore unless you're trent frederick i shouldn't have said that but yeah but you don't typically score valley talked about the rarity of that and tavarez continues to go to that well the thought of what to do with that blue line

now i assume that lilligren's going back in. You have assumed correctly. At the end of the day, you say what you will about him. You need some skill back there. But the team hasn't produced any offense, so give yourself the best chance. That's why they kept Robertson in last game. I don't think TJ was undeniable on Saturday night.

No. Well, it's just he's he's just lost i don't know what he's lost maybe it's his maybe it's just bother time catching up to him how old is he 33 maybe it's just maybe it's ending a little early for him here yeah certainly looks like right it's 34 it it does not look like he's fully engaged watch the first goal by boston saturday night and i know reeves threw up a pizza but go watch heinen get in behind tj brody like it's dump in. And he gets to dictate first. On the puck. On where the puck's going.

Or where the flow's going to go. And. TJ can't get there first. And he certainly can't battle. Yeah. It was nice of. Boston for JVR to score that one. It's a nice little twist of the knife.

And you know. Samsonov coming flying out like he's Gump Worsley there. I don't to score that one. It's a nice little twist of the knife. And, you know, Samsonov coming flying out like he's Gump Worsley. I don't know what the hell that was. Once upon a time. I didn't think that turnover was as bad as everyone said it was. I thought it was a bad bounce. He just tried to hack at it. It was a bad bounce because

Boston D came crashing down and took it away. For sure. He didn't have the wall like there. He had to make a rush and tried to chop at it. Got a bad bounce. Brody's got a stick held behind and maybe he should drop his stick and dive out there. I don't know. But it was unfortunate more than like a mental error.

Yeah. Speed thing or something like that. So I love that backhand, forehand backhand through the legs move. Love it. And once upon a time when I was scoring a ton of gold in junior, I loved doing it. You did through the legs in junior? No, five hole.

The goalie's five hole. Forehand, backhand, through the goalie's five hole. Oh, through those legs. I just never tried it like 12 feet out from the goal i've never seen anyone try it and then it went in short side it was just the whole thing he almost missed on the short side i mean like it was a very bizarre play which is a fitting way for them to score that goal your backhand forehand so the other one i didn't like was the Marchand one-timer. To come out on Charlie McAvoy, he commits. He goes down on his knees, and you have no chance.

And then the third one, you're looking for a save. You need, at some point, to make a big save. And he hasn't given it to him in the series, which is why it's got to be Wool on Tuesday night and hope it's the start of a fairy tale story where once we went to Wool, da-da-da-da-da-da. God, wouldn't that be great? I'm not convinced they're going to go to Joseph Wool.

Really? Yeah, I'm not. And it stems from why didn't they prep him more when he came back? Explain that to me. I think that's out the window. I think we're in desperation mode. Why didn't they prep him more when he came back explain that to me i think that's out the window but why we're desperation mode why didn't they yeah because i don't know why it's a great question i i think it's on your team here i i think it's because they thought maybe it was too overwhelming for him that they listen joseph wall is their future. Well, not if you don't put him in Tuesday. Whether or not, no, whether or not he plays Tuesday or not, this guy is their future number one goalie.

I think there's a part of them that they were scared to put too much heat on him, on his shoulders when he came back. What about the Bruins starts then? You know, they give them the back-to-back Bruin starts. Yeah, and when it faltered, that's when they made the decision that he might not be ready for this, so protect him.

You know, there are some decisions they've made. Do you throw the protection out the window by putting him in a game five? Well, do you think he's a good goalie or not? Like, you gotta play. There's all this time protecting the Eagles and Fra'm not here to i'm not here to disagree i'm just trying to trying to read the tea leaves a little bit on maybe why they did not go to him and we all sat here and said i fought for until the end finally said fine two horse race here who's playing best who's hot at the right time we

still saw that window of joseph wall prior to getting the high ankle sprain that he was lights out he was far and away the team's starting goaltender and then samson i've had a good run almost got it back to what an 890 something at-something at one point. It was pretty good. Can I say that I feel stupid after he went in the net in the third period? I'm like, yeah, he's just better. It's just like, you know, he had bad stats down the stretch, and he had bad games coming off the injury. But I'm just like, oh, yeah, that guy, like, I immediately feel 10 times better having him in the net.

Straight up. And, like, I know Samsonov had a good bounce back or whatever, but, like, yeah, Wall probably should have been playing a little earlier. I just, you know, to Sam's point about desperation and looking for a turning point, and Samsonov hasn't done enough for me where you say, he's been so good,

we just have to give him another crack at this. You know, like, he's not been that guy. So, anyway, I'm on Team Wall here. We'll see if the team agrees or not. I'd probably go to Joseph Wall too. Let me ask you this. Your job is on the line, which... Probably is for some people.

Who are you going to? Yeah, I'm going to Wall. Kipper? I don't know. Sometimes there's a stubbornness with certain people that if they're going to go down, they want to go down their way. But the way they talked about him,

the way they were playing him the first half of the season before he got hurt, they wanted Wall to be the guy. Think about the investment that you put in to Samsonov. The whole thing. They're years into Wall. He's been in the organization for years. Yeah. I just wish they would have prepped him a little bit more. Yeah're years into war. He's been in the organization for years. Yeah.

I just wish they would have prepped him a little bit more. Yeah. That's fair. Before we get to break, there's a couple comments from Keefe at the press conference that made people mad. Would you like to hear the comments that made people mad? Yeah.

One is, let's start with clip two, and we can't question the effort. Nothing wrong with our effort level here tonight. Guys are competing. It's physical hockey. Guys are competing. It's physical hockey. Guys are trying. It's a good team over there that's limiting us. You can question a lot of things.

You can't question the effort. What? No way. Let's try a Clip 7 series closer than it appears. This series and these games that we've been in, they're far closer than it may appear. And we need little things to shift over into our favor, starting with special teams. one finish chance away or one extra save away to shifting that over into our favor. We won one game in the series,

and it's the game in which we scored a power play goal at an important time. We got a penalty kill at a very important time in that game. We need something like that to shift to our favor, and then it's just one less mistake and one more positive puck going the other way so clearly we haven't talked about i think that's amazing what i said moments ago is that sometimes if you're going to go down you want to go down your way clearly he will go down supporting these guys and being that that guy that says i still believe in you he will not

look at cooper prior to their game five win two-time stanley cup champs with future hall of famers and he's going don't come to the rink if you don't believe yeah and let's see who shows up yeah that's a two-time stanley cup champion sure he didn't say oh i believe in these guys he said he just left it right where it is yeah i mean he like sheldon you might have one or two left here maybe take a shot yeah i see he i yeah i've heard you say that a few times and i it's just not the way he views this as them like i think he thinks the best way to get the most out of his guys, and like I said to you, forever, he coaches to win every hockey game.

There's no very little long-term planning. Who doesn't, JB? Please. Well, listen, you're the guy. Boo! Everybody coaches to win. All the time you're telling me about this accountability and how you scratch guys today and it'll pay off later and the long-term planning and you set the culture. Nothing's paid off for him. Nothing's paid off for him up until this paid off for him until this point plan but i'm saying he's less likely

to do the long game and he wants to win the next game boys we're arguing into the bumper we gotta do national hour uh jay woodcroft's gonna join us oh yes head coach of the edmonton oilers i don't think he's done too, so we're real happy he's joining us. Before heading overseas for the World Championships, he'll be one of the coaches for Team Canada. Let's ask him if Sid's going with him next. Jay Woodcroft on our National Hour when we return to Real Kipper and Born.