Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Choosing a Coach & Uncomfortable NMCs

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the latest on the Leafs' coaching search as Craig Berube and Todd McLellan appear to be run-away favourites for the job. Nevertheless, they discuss long-shot candidates in Joel Quenneville & Rod Brind'Amour and why the timing of the hire is crucial. Then, a chat about John Tavares' awkward contract situation, his captaincy going forward and if his play at the Worlds could help potential trade negotiations. Finally, former NHL scout Jason Bukala (32:05) gives an organizational breakdown for the Leafs including their draft capital, prospect pool and current contract conundrums.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

all right let's kick off the week welcome into the real kipper and born show nick kiprios justin born sammy mckee derek brandeo david sis boomba and for our leaf edition that no longer has the leafs playing. That won't stop us, though. We can generate something. Actually, I think the ratings go up when they stop playing and we start talking about the Leafs when they get knocked out. Wherever you are, though, we're glad you're aboard. Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6, and wherever you get your pod when you can't catch us live.

So we'll dive right into it. Plenty to talk around the National Hockey League, which we will later on in the show, including our national hour, as Susie gets a hearing for his cross-check to McDavid. We'll get into that a little later in the show. Canucks win. Canucks win. This is cross-checking. Yes.

But in the meantime, coaching spots are open. We expect coaching spots to get filled as early as this week, including here in Toronto, where Craig Berube's been interviewed. Mm-hmm. Twice, apparently. As Todd McClellan, who right now just seems to be a two-horse race. So does that mean Quenville is not a horse? I don't believe so.

And we talked about this last week, where the league's open to revisiting Joel Quenville. It just won't happen fast enough for the toronto maple leafs wow do you think the league would want to keep him out of toronto because that would heighten the scrutiny no i think i think if they if they do let him back in they they want to do it at their pace at their, in their comfort zone, the last thing that they want to do is look like they're bending over backwards for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Yet another case, Sam, of the Leafs getting... Even I can't shut that one up. It's not a good look around the league that all of a sudden the doors open up because it's the Leafs that may be interested in Joel Quenville. So now you are, you know, in a race for head coach because there's other spots being open. That's why you can't necessarily wait for Joel Quenville. Musical chairs.

Or you can't even really, or maybe you can, depending, and I'll get your thoughts on this, Rod Brindamore. I've said it right from the get-go, and this is prior to what we watched here in the second round against the New York Rangers, but Rod Brindamore wasn't going anywhere. Yeah, well, they got swept, though, right? Isn't that what I heard last show? Wasn't that the Canes were already eliminated?

Oh, yeah. Who said that? Ies were already eliminated? Oh, yeah. Who said that? I believe that was you. Oh, yeah. Does that? Oh, they won one game. Congratulations. Does that change anything moving forward if they lose in five games?

Yeah. Well, maybe. The fact that they've been negotiating the coach's contract throughout playoffs, I think that would mean, let's say this. They lose in five. If you're Dundon, you could say, well, you're not that great. You keep losing in five. I'm not going to pay you.

You know, you want six? I'm going to give you three. And then maybe that makes you more go. Bye-bye. You're cool. You're cool. None of you are cool, actually. Is it showing off Brenda Moore a little bit with disappointing playoff runs the last two years?

I made my point very clear, I think, on the weekend that, you know, I think he's fancier Sheldon Keefe in a lot of ways. I actually think that's a great point. I do. I really feel that they're very similar sort of philosophies when Sheldon came here. Hold the puck, hold the puck, shoot the puck, puck have the puck all the time have the puck i guess that's the point of the game but there's a lot of similar sort of systems teams go north a bit yeah a bit more but i just feel like it's kind of a if you're gonna be doing a crazy move here where you're bringing another coach you kind of want like the screamy old tough guy kind of coach

here now as opposed to like it's tough yeah i do but i don't think it's i don't know like i is he a player's coach all i know is we had rod brindamore on our show i don't think Rod's tough? I do, but I don't think it's... I don't know. Is he a player's coach? All I know is we had Rod Brindamore on our show. I don't know if you guys remember this. Our first year. We did? Yeah, and one of my questions to him was, you know, I'm surprised that your teams

aren't more in your image. Like, I remember I told him that I thought his teams were like puck possession, fancy teams compared to how he played. What do you think about that? And he was not happy with that. Really?

Was that on our show? Well, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. Was it Hockey Central? I don't remember. I don't remember this. He sees himself as having hard-nosed teams. Even though they score and they create,

he thinks his teams are hard-nosed. I think it would be a great fit here. We do not agree. Yeah. I think it would be a great fit here. You don't watch the game very well? Is that bad? That's a great drop.

I don't know who that is. yeah yeah but there is a race right now because new jersey's looking for a coach uh you seem to hold on this brindamore thing you think there's a chance a puncher's chance no i think it's a long shot at best and i'll stick to what i've been saying all along was that the rangers really really pushed hard for him prior to going and getting uh peter laviolette and they drew it out as long as they could and couldn't pry him out Couldn't pry him out. Couldn't pry him out. Even with the thought that he'd be paid,

they'd make him the highest paid coach in the league. I'm not leaving. I can see Rod as like making 100 grand a year being the skills coach for the Kings or something. Does he get tired of his owner right now with a loss? That's the only possibility is that the owner uses the loss, a potential loss, as an excuse to lowball him and it offends him and he says bye.

So he's nuts if he's going to try to play that game already with him. He is nuts. Yeah, he is nuts. Yeah, so we've established that. Yeah, yeah. But the terrifying thing, and this is all nice to talk about from a least fan perspective here that like oh like in this pie in the sky scenario where the guy that says he's never leaving and had an opportunity to be the rangers coach and he's like maybe he'll leave this time yeah if you're waiting around you're

chasing on tony you're looking oh god don't remind me and you're looking for you're potentially losing out on your other guys like brube or mcclellan who they love or like glenn like all these guys are going to get jobs because there's so many openings there's so many teams looking for it like you may be left holding the bag here where you don't get one of your top options because you're waiting on brindamore the flip side of that what if he does leave and you hired todd mcclellan that's the that's the delicate balance and why brad for living makes the big bucks i guess and why you you figure it out i'll play the other side of it what happens if you don't name a coach this week, and then you watch Berube go to New Jersey. Mm-hmm.

Or... You could get a Sheldon Keefe then. Everything's great. Like, you also have to play... If we name someone as early as Thursday and we meet the right price, which is never a problem here, then you get the guy that is out there right now

and you get first dibs on him. If you let New Jersey come in and swoop up maybe Berube, then now you've missed the boat. I wonder if they are waiting to see if the Canes lose tonight before they hire someone to at least have a phone call to Brindaborn and be like we need to have some idea if there's any chance i mean that's playing a dangerous game to me and the thing the part of it that if you want to wait for brindamore a lot of the guys in the the free agent market right now the hot names everybody's talking about to me they're all very like i don't similar yeah like it's not like talking about, to me, they're all very similar.

It's not like any of them, to me, move the needle that much. People will say Berube, cup winner, whatever. But none of them really, really are huge difference makers to me. So if you want to wait, you think Rod's the guy, maybe you do. But boy, it's a dangerous game, like I said. So what would you do right now? Would you name Berube as Thursday or Friday as your head coach here? Probably. Why is it going to be so long?

I can't hire him tomorrow. I would probably. Listen, they could, but I would think that even if they've identified it, even if they. The contract, right? The contract, signed, all of that. I don't know. Like they just interviewed him again on the weekend.

Right. I would think Thursday or Friday would give people enough time to breathe. Time. Time. I'm not the person that they came here to hear that from. Who do you think they should hire? What do you think they should do? That's the question.

You, Kippy. You, Barney. Yeah. I like the thought of kind of a hard-nosed kind of guy like Craig Berube. I like Brynden Moore too. It doesn't – listen, the whale out there would have been John Cooper prying Cooper away from Tampa. That's not happening.

He called Jim Montgomery to tell him how to beat the Leafs, so I don't think he's coming here. That's the ultimate home run. He wanted the job to open up. That's not happening. It's someone that could take a little bit of that warm blanket that Kyle Dubas and Sheldon have put and wrapped around the players

the last few years, and Ruby won't do that. Yeah. He'll make them a little uncomfortable. For sure. And I do think that the team needs that. They need some discomfort. They need someone a little bit different, and that's fine because that's sort of some of the texts i get from people around the inside of the group is that guys just they want it to stay how it is everything everyone's getting exactly what they

want right now and they're not winning but you know there's no punishment for that so yes i like that idea i do my only qualms with bruby and i'll be honest are just the media side of it you know like this is a tough media market Sheldon Keefe was really good at saying very little but still saying enough but Sheldon had a very good relationship with a lot of people and you you could tell that it it it served him well when he left too because people were praising him, class move, and he started showing that he was a real coach towards the end, although it's debatable a little bit on things that you liked and things that you still didn't like about his coaching styles.

But it opened up enough where people are really pushing him and think that if New Jersey does not get Ruby or McClellan, that he would be in line to get that job. In Jersey. In Jersey. The one thing I was thinking... Boy, that terrifies me. Oh yeah, you go to Jersey, suddenly

you get a goalie. They trade for Markstrom, they get all their guys healthy. Dougie Hamilton comes back, all of a sudden they can just be on fuego. That does concern me. You can see that happen. Absolutely. That's going to happen whether Sheldon's there or not. Yeah, it's true.

It's a good point. They're a team that's trending upwards. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great job to get. The one thing that did cross my mind is everyone was so complimentary about Sheldon on the way out the door. I'm sure MLSC would like to have that salary off their books. Now, when you fire a guy and another team hires him,

do they pay that salary then? So he makes the same amount of money, unless they give him more, but they pick it up. They're dumb. Those coaches are dumb. They're dumb. Why are they dumb? Because they need to be like a player getting bought out.

You get fired, you owe me the $2 million, and then if I go find another job, and they owe me $2 million. Sheldon. Yeah, Ryan Suter's getting like seven different paychecks. Sheldon should be getting paid $2 million from New Jersey and totally should be making $4 million next year. Yes. Two from the Leafs, two from New Jersey.

For sure he should. But that's not the way it works. No. And is that on the coaches union is that a contract structure or what i don't know yeah but i mean then if i'm the union it doesn't matter somebody made a bad decision take that free money like partially my theory is is you know if you're mlsc on the way out the door it's really smart to be like this guy was an unbelievable coach can't even believe we had him i guess i don't know why we fired him yeah you know and then someone else maybe more eager to pick that money uh craig bruby will not be known as a soundbite here what that's what i mean kippers clippers are toast yeah we're gonna have kippers clip every day

one interesting thing per day but like you know there is more to being a head coach in this market and i wrote this about sheldon last week there's more to being a head coach in this market than just coaching a team and i think he grew in that regard how to handle the media the alumni the yada yada yada and bruby seems a guy who wants to coach a hockey team yeah you gotta come here not coming here and be... I'm not saying that you got to, like, kiss ass here, but you got to work it a little bit. Kyle worked it unbelievably. Like, it wasn't hard to figure out who Kyle worked in the media.

Yes. He did, for sure. Right? Yeah. He had his people. Yeah yeah there's no doubt about it and i think a lot of people tree living is a great example of a guy with tremendous relationships with the media not making it that obvious right yeah yeah sure because everybody's got people yeah well that's that's exactly it it's not making that obvious and yeah if ruby can handle that all

that other stuff then great i think he'll be as good as any other coach X's and O's wise. Totally fine. And hopefully a little bit more. Let's go win one for this guy. Win one for the Gipper. Then old Sheldon was. So can we drill down on McClellan? Like what do you guys know or think about McClellan?

Because he seems like he's a very close to potentially one of the guys. For me, I think what hurts him is lack of success. A lot of rounds. I'm looking at his page here. One, two, three, four, five times that he's coached a team that's lost in the first round. Does he have any deeper success? This is starting from 2008-2009 with the San Jose Sharks.

Lost in round one, lost in round three, lost in round three, lost in round one, lost in round two, lost in round one, out of playoffs, out of playoffs, lost in round two, out of playoffs, out of playoffs, lost in round one, lost in round one. Fired midseason this year. Yeah, I mean, he...

He'll fit right in. A couple of deep runs early in his tenure there. To me, he's... I don't think he's a bad coach. I don't. I don't think he's a bad coach either. You know, to me, he's like the replacement level guy. He's fine.

The one thing I do like. Mid. Is that. Good drop. That Berube has a little bit of that, like. I'm the boss. Not only did I play, I really played. Yeah.

You know. Oh, I played. He's got that. He's got that Rick Talkett. Absolutely. I played. That. I.

You're telling me that. I invented that crap. Yeah. got that Rick Talkett. I played. You're telling me that? I invented that crap. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, you can call a bluff a little easier. That's where McClellan doesn't have that. There's a lot of coaches that don't have it.

Neither do Dabbs. Neither. Not that it's a must. Not that you can't win a Stanley Cup without it. I just think Berube would be an easier guy to look Austin and a few others in the eye and say. Not buying that. Give me your real effort. I think you're trying hard enough.

No, no, no. 1,054 games for Berube with 3,149 penalty runs. That's the edge that I also like from Berube. That's a lot of pims. A lot of pims. It's a violent. But he's not a, he didn't coach St. Louis like that. No, he's a smart guy.

They didn't have a bunch of heavies there that ran around like idiots. They had guys that played physical and hard. But their cup winning team with Shen and Barbashev, and, you know, they were just a heavy quality team. Love that team. All right. Good on coaches? Yeah, good that team. All right. Good on coaches. Yeah, good on coaches.

One thing that we haven't discussed yet is the Leaf current captain. Yes. Luke Fox has an article on him today. Luke Fox has an article on sportsnet.ca talking about... Captain Canada. Captain Canada, which was usually reserved for Ryan Smith. Because he was out of the playoffs every year, wasn't he? I actually used to call this the Danny Heatley tournament, where he was playing it every year after the Sens lost in the first round.

Danny Heatley tournament. I did read the article, but how would you characterize the topic? Would it be, why did you go? I characterize the topic as there is an awkward situation between the Leafs and Tavares right now, trying to figure out what to do with his contract, his captaincy, and then highlighting that this guy is someone who doesn't turn down invitations to play for his country.

He's a rink rat. You know, this guy still loves hockey and still wants to be a part of something that matters, I think is a relevant note there, too. Sorry, Tavares has won junior gold twice, Olympic gold, World Cup gold, Spengler Cup gold. Only thing he doesn't have is his World Championship gold.

Interesting. I think... Would you put him in the International Hockey Hall of Fame? I think, you know, we had this conversation. I think it'd be real hard to keep him out if he has gold in every single tournament. He'll be in the Hockey Hall of Fame. He's the 81st highest scoring player in NHL history. I know he's going to the Hockey Hall of Fame.

We know that, Kipper, but he's going to be. Is he? For sure. Everybody gets in the Hockey Hall of Fame. It's not the most strict Hockey Hall of Fame. Unless you're Alex McGill and you're getting in. No, no, no. That was the case three or four years ago.

Now it's a lot harder to get in i think you're not guaranteed with a thousand points in a thousand games to get in the hockey hall of fame he's gonna play another handful of years he's gonna have another x amount of points if he finds yeah if he wins goldenness and maybe that's one of the reasons why he's playing in this tournament i think for me just hearing that he's going over there, because a lot of people say that I'm not a top player anymore. A lot of people say I can't play top six. Am I a checker now?

I'm going to go here and not only play, but guess what? I'm the captain too. You guys want to take the sea off me in Toronto, and I'm the captain of Team Canada? Maybe that's another reason why. Yeah. I think you want to get the hell out of here. Yeah, maybe. Honestly, I think that's part of it, too.

He's a robot, and he deals with the media well. It actually is a good strategic move for his career. No question. Right? Absolutely. In what way? It's also good for the Leafs. How does it help them?

Just play well and win. And to look like a winner? Is that the A-A-A-A? Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Sure. And it could help the Leafs, you know, in terms of moving him. So he has a $7.04 million direct deposit set to hit his count July 1st.

How much? $7.04 million. Oh, sick hit his count July 1st. How much? $7.04 million. Oh, sick. That's just dropping. That feels great. That's what Kipper's checks look like. Which I will remind, he does have to pay taxes on.

Something happen with it? That does come up sometimes. And after that, he'll make $910,000. Yeah, which would be... Make him a very appealing asset. For sure. As long as you have the... Make him a very appealing asset. For sure. As long as you don't care about cap space.

Right. Which, say, Columbus, Chicago, Anaheim, a lot of those teams wouldn't. Sharks. Sharks, for sure. It won't be necessarily a first-rounder to go at, like, Patrick Marleau. Mm-hmm.

Right? You don't need it. need it no no you don't you're you're sending a guy that can score you 55 60 points and you're sending a guy that could look the part of a captain for team Canada so why do I have to attach anything to that other than give you the give you the asset yeah and you know you could have this conversation as I can see it happening in season as you get towards deadline you know if you want to retain half the hit and say he's cheap we'll take some of the hit you know we're looking to do something else but uh luke's article has a

list of the high-end centers to hit unrestricted free agency this summer matt duchesne who's 33 had 25 and 65 points 25 goals 65 points sean points. Sean Monahan, 26 and 59. Chandler Stevenson, 16 and 35. Lindholm had 15 goals and 44 points. Tavares had 30 goals and 65 points. Lindholm. 29 goals and 65 points. Lindholm's looking great for the Canucks, by the way.

But the point is that Tavares is not a non-asset. He's an asset. He is. To your point, it's not going to cost you to move. Yes, that's right. And he's an asset that can help you make the playoffs. it's not going to cost you to move. Yes, that's right. And he's an asset that can help you make the playoffs. He's done it every year for the Toronto Maple Leafs. The unfortunate part, he can't help you win a Stanley Cup.

Hasn't. Or go deep, in this instance, here in Toronto. So, you're not going to try to play that same song again next year. I'm sure they would like to move on because that's a lot of cap space. And if you're able to move that, I think you'd be less inclined to trading Mitch Marner to me. I don't know. The more I've thought about that, it's just how is that going to happen?

It may buy you some time for sure with Marner. How is it going to happen? The more I'm thinking about for sure with Marner. How is it going to happen? The more I'm thinking about it, it's like, why is he going to waive? Well, Mitch or John? Mitch. Why is John going to? Okay, hold on, hold on. One free agent at a time here.

Well, Mitch. Okay, who are we talking about? Well, John, I just think like, you know, he's going to be gone at the end of the season anyway. I think it'd be an easier conversation to me. But he might play here for $2 million. Tavares is a Toronto boy. Yeah, maybe you're right.

I don't know. I think it's going to be a lot harder to get both these guys to go than I originally kind of thought is what I'm getting at here. I think for me personally, I don't know whether or not not like mitch if we're going to talk about both of them right now okay mitch is a different entirely different conversation because it's it's got to revolve around are you willing to give him eight years at 12 12 and a half million dollars i don't see the leafs going there at all do you no no i don't see mitch taking a pay cut do you to stay here you mean yeah i i don't know no i don't see him taking a pay cut so where is

the where is the where's the conclusion other than to trade him this summer there's no other conclusion okay we good on that sure Sure. Alright. Tavares, you gotta get $11 million off the cap. Do you want to wait another year to do it? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I just, I don't know how you don't

I know you're right. The stats you brought up there about how he is comparable with those guys, maybe you can but i guess i just i have a hard time picturing both of them saying yes i'll wave i that's the more i've thought about it that's the more it's they have full no move mitch mitch there's no reason why mitch should want to stay if he's not getting a new contract but okay but you think he's gonna go somewhere and immediately control the...

Do you know how tough it would be on him personally if everybody knew that he did not waive his no-move clause to stay here, knowing that he's not going to be around next year? Do you have any idea how ugly that is for him? All right. You're convincing me. Okay. He doesn't want to subject himself or his family to that.

And I got to tell you, if I'm another team looking at this situation, I'm thinking, how do we get him? How do we get him? You know, that's. Yeah. Yeah, I know people talk about, ah, he hasn't done the playoffs yet. He hasn't yet. But it doesn about ah he hasn't done the playoffs yet he hasn't yet but it doesn't mean he won't so let me give you a scenario for tavaris now okay he says no i want to stay and

you're brendan shanahan and brad tree living you say okay so we'll pay your seven million signing bonus and your 900 000 salary and we'll play with you all season long. Yes or no? Is that what they say, Brendan and Brad? Okay, because you said no, now we're just going to keep you? If you were a non-asset, I could see them being like, yeah, then sit in the press box. He's going to give you 60 points, and he's a non-asset, I could see them being like, ah, then sit in the press box. Like, if he's going to give you 60 points and he's a centerman,

you already need another centerman. Like, tough to go out and find two good centermen if you sit him in the press box. I think they would. Don't you think they'd play him? No. No. I think it could get ugly.

Yeah? Yeah. Wow. It hasn't happened in the history of the league that I'm aware of. Tell me something. You start with taking – do you think you should be the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs next year? Yeah. Wow. It hasn't happened in the history of the league that I'm aware of. Tell me something. You start with taking... Do you think you should be the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs next year? No.

Okay, that's a starting point in itself. I told you two years ago. It's in itself as a starting point. Does John want to come back next year getting stripped his captaincy? No. No. But he might value $11 million pretty highly and he's getting it anyways being here again yeah like now you're starting to pin the player against the organization and the town

so we're taking the captaincy away from you and you're saying do it i'm still not going anywhere how is that a healthy environment for anybody it's not and you're saying do it i'm still not going anywhere how is that a healthy environment for anybody it's not and you know what actually might have some input on this that he has already left one town in flames like it already feels like he can't go back to long island and be vetted for all the accolades he deserves he was a wonderful islander but people there he's a snake that's the you know that's his reputation if i'm him i'm i'm like if i gotta go i gotta go because i'm not going i'm not having in my hometown a place where people don't want me around and that's the beauty of of even if you have no move clause that's one thing but to have

a club basically tell you you're no longer wanted here and you want to stick around and everybody knows it is not healthy for anyone and that's where john has to go do i want to be the guy you're telling me you want my 11 million dollars at the end of the day you're not mad at me it is what it was i provided you with 80 points it just didn't turn out to be deep in the playoffs or a Stanley cup. We're still fine here, but John now saying, I don't move now. Now you're, you're parading to the whole city that we could really use his cap space.

And he's selfishly going to absorb it himself. And we're going to go and have a great season. What if you weren't you know i mean you don't have to you don't have to say that you can just say you know he has no trade clause and we didn't we're not asking him about it so even if you do ask him you don't have to bury the guy but i mean one of the strategies is to play dirty though yes and that's the strategy you have to acknowledge that we need to make changes here. If we bring you back and Mitch back,

and the only thing we've done is change a coach, it's not good enough for everybody. They will burn us all, okay? We'll all go down in flames now. Yeah. And, John, you're going over to Prague right now to show everybody you can still play and you got lots of juice and you're, you know. Thank you, assistant on the OT winner.

You got a ton to play for here. You don't want to stick around here so we can just kick you out the door a year later or make you or offer you a million and a half to stick around to be what, a fourth line centerman? It's tough, man, because he's been a good maple leaf you know like he's a low low event sort of you know what okay been fine didn't didn't lead anywhere okay didn't lead anywhere he's okay he's fine didn't get the job done you know it's one thing you know to talk about him and act like he didn't get the job done the team has lost in game seven several times they're all in it they're all i'm not blaming

john and he's been nothing you know low maintenance he says the right things he does right things he works his ass off he's everything you ask from a guy very safe he's very safe very safe sure but it's all done sexy if you like he's been it's kind He's been. It's kind of over though, right? It's kind of over. Yeah. It's time for people to kind of move on. John doesn't want to shut down at 34. He still can put 50, 60 points up. You just got to do it somewhere else now. Can't you see John Tavares becoming Corey Perry? Not in terms of the wormliness, but the happy to play in the NHL.

Even if it's fourth line on a cup contender and do the right things. I can see him trying to stay in the league as long as he can. No on a cup contender and do the right things i can see him trying to stay in the league as long as he can no i don't see him no no no no when he's been the best player since he first put on skates from the toronto marlies to the islanders to oshawa to he's always been the best he won't be good at a third or fourth line role. I don't know. He wins face-offs. He's strong. No, no. I can see him doing it.

You've convinced me. I was thinking about this all weekend. I think it was at least too much, but I'm just picturing them waving and both of them saying okay, but all the stuff you're saying, you're convincing me, Kippy. That what? That he'll? That both of them would wave.

Yeah. It's just time. It's just time. Don't make it. The Marner one sucks bad, though. Which one It's just time. It's just time. Don't make it up. The Marneau one sucks bad, though. Which one? It sucks.

The Marneau. The trade. The fact that we've all agreed on the fact that you have to trade a 26-year-old 100-point winger in his prime. That part does suck. When it's all said and done. It makes you nervous. Moving forward, even before things got ugly again in the playoffs, he gave 92 to Willie, right?

You gave 13 and a half to Matthews. You can't keep giving these guys 12 or 13, and there's too many of them. The time to trade, Margo, was last offseason, if you were going to do it. But that's why shanny probably deserves a little bit more heat because that breakup with kyle going down the way it did took away from a pivotal time to make a roster decision that will you know you had a new gm coming in going

i'm not coming in and trading mitch marner you know or whatever let's break and get the books and we can talk more about this stuff okay listen uh we haven't even discussed like okay what easy decision to tell johnny no longer can be the captain. Is it that simple that you're just going to give it to Austin? Oh, yes. Yeah, probably. We should have a conversation. He put it on Mitch's shirt when Mitch goes to play for Jersey.

Emily wants to sell to the Pearsons. All right. Except Pelley said he didn't want to do that. All right. Listen, I'm not saying yes or no. I'm just saying it's worth a conversation. After the break, more Real Kipper and Bourne. In-depth Blue Jays coverage with an analytical twist.

Jays Talk Plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download Jays Talk on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in studio on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show, Nick Kipper, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. All right, plenty to still dissect out of the Toronto Maple Leafs. We'll have that captaincy conversation moving forward here. But in the meantime, let's welcome in Jason Buchla, former NHL head scout, writer for Sportsnet.ca,

and a friend of the show. Bucs, what's going on? Oh, you know, not too much. Just working on a Toronto Maple Leaf organizational breakdown that's going to drop tomorrow on.ca. And as you guys can well imagine uh when you go right from the top through the entire organization including draft capital future cap etc etc etc it's uh it's been a daunting task and i've been trying to have as limited amount of bias as

possible through the process where do you where do you start like if you were to prioritize some of the things that you're talking about, what would be the most challenging or concerning to you? Is it the salary cap? Is it the lack of assets? Like where do you begin? Well, the first thing you do is you take a look at what your cap scenario looks like offseason and beyond. That's the first thing on the pro side.

And that's even before you go into the evaluation of the roster. You take a look at how much money you have to work with, what's coming off the books, what could potentially come on the books is a secondary discussion. On the other side of the ledger, you start to go through the organization and your own depth chart and place realistic value on what you believe your depth looks like and what it might look like to a team outside your organization.

That's delicate, isn't it? Because teams tend to fall in love with their own. That's why, like, when I was in Florida, for example, Kipper, and, you know, like even when you and Caber and I were at the Memorial Cup there in Schoenigan, if you remember back then, like, you know, we're sitting there and Caber's like, and I'm like, Caber, just let's let it simmer for a bit because you can't fall too in love with these guys. This is what we like now that might not play out.

And for the Toronto Maple Leafs, that's been a heavy lift for me. I'm not going to lie. There's not a lot there to work with depth-wise. That's a challenge, Kipper. And then Barney on the draft side, you look at draft capital. You look at the cupboards and what you don't have to work with, I guess, is the best way to put it. So there's your starting point. And then, of course, you go on from there to evaluate your roster.

And if you're getting the value out of your roster in all positions cap relation-wise, and then you start to pinpoint exactly where your weaknesses are where you're where you need to beef up better and uh and what it's going to cost to do that so you know full disclosure you know i'm looking at the virus and martyr situations i mean i think we all are right the two of you guys are probably as well and i'm looking at the value of the contract i'm looking at the no moves i'm looking at a variety of different things. The reality for me is that both of them will not be able to be moved out in the same calendar year. It's going to be one, one year, and then one's going to expire the next year.

That's my guess. The other thing is that on the trade market, if I'm advising Tree and Derek Clancy for these guys in the upper management team, expect to lose a trade on paper when you're looking at Marner. So if you trade him on 70 cents on the dollar, for example, what you're doing though, is you're opening up the coffers to spend elsewhere. So I would put it back on you two. Would the team have looked better this spring without even addressing the

goaltending yet? Would the team have looked better this spring with say a Montour andour and isadora up on the back end instead of marner and those are the types of questions you start to ask yourself i'm not equipped to answer that but watching all the door off for vancouver it certainly makes you think maybe at least you're you know you're actually getting more offense out he's been piling it in the net for him. So those are the tough questions they have to have. You know, how much of a big picture view would an organization take heading into the summer? Like I imagine tree and Shani going to a room. They got all the names and magnetic names on a whiteboard.

And they say, what do we want this to look like next year? What questions do we have to answer? They have so many UFAs books. Can they make any decisions before they find out about Marner and Tavares' answers? That's a great question and an enormous challenge. So thank you for putting that on me, because what you have is control over those assets until July 1st.

So it's a two-headed monster. My first inclination is that you're not going to get an answer. Well, I think you will get an answer out of Tavares. I think Tavares is just going to be a no. He's coming back. That's my belief at this point. I do believe that Mitch might be open to a conversation. Now, the only reason I say that is because here's a fantastic player.

Let's call a spade a spade. He's an elite talent in the National Hockey League who hasn't got it done with his group in the playoffs, okay? Not just him, his group in the playoffs. So his value out on the market is, you know, if you're shopping him to, say, Columbus, for example, there's market value there for sure. That team needs to go to another level, even in regular season, they've got Fantilli there. They've got some nice parts, right?

Goudreau, I know it's a smaller team, but I'm just spitballing. What I'm trying to tell you is that he might be open to that conversation, which opens up a Pandora's box of opportunity before the draft. Because if you target a lottery team, and hopefully a high-end lottery team, you're definitely going to be looking at trying to get a first-round pick and return, and then the secondary asset might not make the market, you know, super excited, but then you have to remember the money that's coming off the books, right?

So it's got a lot of moving parts that way. As far as the other UFAs go, you have control of them to July 1st, but if they're not going to sign and they have interest, a known interest in going somewhere else, would you not want to try and at least trade out the asset for an extra pick at the draft, even if it's a late round pick? You know, it's like when Hyman said he wouldn't sign with us in Florida and we knew he was going to the Leafs. Well, at least we got a six round pick out of it. It's a swing at least, but you got to manage it that way because you'd want to be held or sit there July 5th holding an empty bag.

So under your assumption then that if Marner and Tavares aren't going anywhere throughout the summer anyways, then what happens to Bertuzzi and Max Domi here? How high can you go? Can you bring both of them back? One of them back? None of them? So I think Marner is open to the conversation. Just for clarification, I think the virus is a no. I think you have the conversation with Marner

and that's where it starts strategically. I will say this. If they both say no and they're both back, even if you're going to look to make a hockey trade in the summer or a training camp, whatever the case may you know after marner has the summer to stew on it and he's really not feeling welcome you know human nature has to factor in there right when you're not welcome somewhere right it's not that he's not welcome it's just that the team needs a change and he looks like the sacrificial lamb so um yeah it's to have a monstrous impact on the Bertuzzi and the Domi situation.

So, like in my books right now, Domi was the best version of himself, fellas, in the tail end of the season. You know, when he played a more steady, elevated role in the lineup, you got the best hockey out of him. So, if he's willing to come back with a little bit of term, with not too much of a raise, I have to say, because he's not a pure two. He's not a pure two. I think he had 47 points this year. So the argument could be made if he's stuck in the second line, he could have been a 60-point guy.

We might be able to say that. You know, I could convince myself of that. But that's not a high end two. So there's going to have to be a value in that contract for Domi to return because we absolutely have to look at our back that contract for domey to return because we absolutely have to look at our back end still it's redundant i know it's a conversation and let's not forget about this joe wall i love joe wall but he's been made of glass so far so his contract's fantastic we need another guy to come in are we looking at somebody who's a veteran guy who's got a year or

two left on term i.e a sorrows who's going to cost you more money down the road? Or do you shop in the waters of an Anthony Stolarz in Florida who had fantastic numbers? He plays the game the same way, sort of, as Wall, that big body goaltender. I know this doesn't sound like it might be important to people when they listen, but I would present to management that your defense, and you guys have all played the game.

When you have one guy, a goalie who's super athletic, messy in the crease, if you will, he's a wanderer, butterfly athletic, and then you have the other guy who's that composed between the post guy, the way that you guys defend and approach the game in front of him is different for both. I don't think that anybody can deny that. If you can have a two-headed monster in the net with size and the same sort of style of play i think that benefits the decor as well we're talking to jason buccala former nhl scout now writing for sportsnet.ca so books your your factory in the you know if if marner does get traded that's 10.9 that you can save on your cap but four of it's going to a raise for Willie Nylander.

Two's going to Austin. Is there enough left over to go service your blue line and get Max Domi to re-up? Well, if it's Domi over Bertuzzi, depending on what choice they make, I think Domi's going to come in cheaper than Bertuzzi. There's not enough of a difference between those two in my estimation, so I go Domi to save some dollars. The reason

I do that is because my first target on the back end, if he hits free agency, and there will be a lot of teams after this guy, but I'm shopping for like Brandon Montour. We need a guy who can not only transport the puck, but quarterback the power play differently than what we have right now. Like for me, guys, Riley, I struggle to call him a pure power play quarterback.

It's, you know, he had 173 shots on goal. I don't think he rips pucks necessarily. Like it doesn't stand out to me as an asset. Montour rips pucks. And he's just one of the guys that I'm using as an example here. Of course, he could trade for somebody as well. But, you know, those are the types of things that I have to see what the lay of the land looks like, see what the class association is going to be.

Because in Florida, I believe they're not going to have room for both Reinhardt and Montour. So all things being equal, it's pretty hard to give up on, what, 58 goals this year? So he probably Montour is the man out there. You know, Kip to your point there, like also the cap will go up an additional 4.125 million plus that money. So you've got, you would have a lot of money to play with. The other question I have is if any of the players,

the Leafs have coming could potentially take a spot. You're looking for guys to play on the cheap. That helps you out. Cowan, Minton seem like potential names i think robertson could score you 25 plus next year i think lilligran is probably gonna you know once again play regular minutes you have some guys playing cheap but will they have more coming with guys like cowan and minton minton's gonna need time in the minors that's my

estimation okay for what for what he's gonna play he's a three. And to play a three, you're going to match up against middle six. I'm going to need you to take up some time on the penalty kill, win key face-offs, all these things. I think he's capable of that, so he might get a cup of coffee. But I think he's a recall guy more than a regular next year. Cowan, on the other hand, I believe that Cowan can slide into the lineup and play even on the wing with a John Tavares I've watched Cowan a ton this year um obviously OHL player like the kid just doesn't stop guys it's

been ridiculous in playoffs and he just keeps going and going the nice thing about Cowan and we've had this discussion before about Nyes Nyes tracks 200 feet I think we would all agree with that he competes from goal line to goal line Cowan's got more upside offensively but he also competes from goal line to goal line and he can's got more upside offensively, but he also competes from goal line to goal line. And he can kill penalties, and he's quick to space on the forecheck. Like, he can create turnovers. Even if he doesn't bump the way Nyes does, his quickness to space and everything else,

in addition to his offense, he'll score more points earlier in his career than Nyes will. They'll just be different players. So there's room for both on the lineup next year on the cheap, like you say, Barney. The other guys that lineup next year on the cheap, like you say, Borny. The other guys that I, that I think that on the cheap on the bottom end, I mean,

I think Connor Dewar is, there's a role for Connor Dewar. He's got our brights. He's RFA. He's 800 and whatever he is, eight 70. So whatever his number turns out to be, I like his up ice pressure.

I like that he's involved. I like that he plays fast. He's got some tenacity. You know, the one assist in the game against Boston, he boxed out in the crease. He was in the area. You know, he does some things that, to the naked eye,

people might not appreciate. And he's 24 years old, I believe, turning 25. So there's a guy. Noah Gregor, 167 hits in a limited role, plays with pace. Like, these aren't guys that are going to be, you know, they're not the most exciting, you know, they're not the icing on the cake to get you the Stanley Cup cup but they're going to come at a at a cost association that's affordable and sometimes the devil you know is a better than the devil you don't and i think that those types of

players fit um you know some of the outliers for me the yarn crooks uh an outlier you know as numbers not bad at 2.1 it just doesn't do enough for me when the games get really hard. So is there somebody out there that might want to take that on in a checking role? I don't know. Time will tell. It's going to be interesting. But you know what? The cap going up alone, just think of it this way.

But the cap going up alone, that's a player, isn't it? So at 4.125 or whatever it is, you can actually get Dewar, Gregor, Cowan, and, you know, somebody else. They're all on your roster within that cap, just the rise in the cap alone. Those guys are on your roster with that. And Anthony Stolarz even. So there you've got like five guys out of 20 just from the raise in the cap alone. So you can get creative outside that box. Just one note on Cowan.

And we've seen it over the years where toronto gets really excited about somebody and then the reality is they got to come in and get their feet wet he's still eligible for junior next year he cannot play in the minors he's playing at about a buck 75 a80. He's not nice at two plus. He's not a heavy guy. So you got to be careful with guys coming in still in their underage years here. Books. That's my first thought is protecting the asset instead of throwing them out there and saying, oh, now you're going to play second line

and you're going to do all these great things. No, I listen., totally agree with it. But that's the unfortunate reality. Like when you trickle down all these conversations, Kipper, who are you going to call up from the Marlies to take on the role? Like I really like Jacob Quillen. I think Jacob Quillen can push for a job. I like Alexander Steeves.

Like these guys are gritty, fast, they're older, you know, they can play a role. Bobby McMahon, let's not forget. He's on the rise, right? So there are situations here. I don't want to eat our own. So I totally get it. Like, if Nyes is a great Dane, you know, Cowan's a chihuahua, right?

So they're just going to approach the game differently. That's all. He's really quick, though. He's quick, and he's in and out. And he had a great camp last year. He's had a fantastic year here. And this is what stinks, fellas, about the AHL junior rule, doesn't it? Like, we need Cowan to play 20, 25 games in the minors next year

and be able to play NHL games. It stinks that it's set up this way because, honestly, like we had Owen Tippett back in the day in Florida. We had to send him back to junior. I'll tell you like the tip we had to, I don't want to say we had to whip him like a, you know, like a racehorse,

but it was hard because he was just too good for the league and they start to lose their attention to detail. So if he earns a job, I think he's going to be ready for it. If he earns the job. And I think he's very close Kipper. I think we got to go, Kippy. We got to go, Boogs.

And we can do an hour and a half on this. Great job as always, man. Really appreciate your time. Awesome, guys. Talk to you soon. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Boogs. Appreciate your time. Boogs. All right. Talk about the Leaf captaincy tomorrow. We can do it now. We got

about two minutes. Do we? When do we get to make fun of the Bruins? Next hour. We can do it now. We got about two minutes. Do we? When do we get to make fun of the Bruins? Next hour. Okay. Next hour. So is it that natural to just hand it over to Matthews as early as September? So the other options are Riley.

No one. No one. No one. No one. So then yes. He's the face of the franchise I know he is but is he a natural leader to you has it always felt like this was

his team and he is the he is the face of it like through and through from puck drop to the end of the game. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definite flaws in that logic. Are they all following him?

Yeah. Are they all in on him? I don't know what they're following him to, but they're definitely following him. Correct. Or do you just give it to him and say it'll naturally come? Throw into it? Throw into it.

I think, you know, Keith Pelley was very clear saying that we're not trying to just sell jerseys, but I think they'd like to sell the 34 with a C on it. I think, you know, Keith Pelley was very clear saying that we're not trying to just sell jerseys, but I think they'd like to sell the 34 with a C on it. It's going to happen. Yeah. It's going to happen.

Yeah. Okay. Listen. Just win. That's where it's headed. Sure is. That's where it's headed. Okay.

Don't go away. When we come back, Kevin Lowe is going to join us. Edmonton Oiler, great. Is there a bit of a pickle, maybe a whole nod? A dilly of a pickle. No, not that bad. It's a pickle.

It's a real pickle. All right, we'll find out how big of a pickle it is when we return to Real Kipper and Bourne after these words.