Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Defence Deficiency

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the Leafs' loss to the Senators last night and the overall failures of the team's blueline thus far. Is there any way for the Leafs to turn their defensive play around without making a personnel change? Then, on the game itself, unstructured play from the Leafs, the new additions continuing to struggle and Joseph Woll's first misstep of the season. They are joined by Gord Stellick (30:13), who shares his thoughts on why this year's Leafs' team has failed to improve on last season and the pressure to get back on track quickly. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

visit leons.ca welcome in to the real kipper and born show toronto maple leaf edition for the next hour nick kiprios justin bourne sammy mckeeo, Jen Rolnick. We're on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6. Eastern, we will try desperately for all you Leaf Nationers to lift your spirits up in the next hour. But as I look over to Sammy, I'm thinking we may dig the hole deeper for you i'm not sure where we're gonna go in the next 60 minutes but we'll we'll do our best here so the toronto maple leafs lose for the fifth time in six games the ottawa senators scoring three

times in the third period to beat the Toronto Maple Leafs 6-3 and pick up just their second victory in three weeks. I think the biggest concern is keeping the puck out of their own net. They've allowed 34 goals, JB, in just seven home games this season. That is something no one saw. Well. No, no, no, no. We saw challenges on that blue line right out of summer training camp,

first few weeks, but no one saw just the Sharks having more allowed at home than the leafs yeah one more yeah just one more not a ton more either one singular puck in the net yikes yikes yikes yikes yeah you know i think the best way i can describe where the leafs are at is that they are now who everyone thought they were years ago right everyone kind of didn't believe that the Leafs had figured out defense, and they're like, ah, they're a one-way team. They're a run-and-gun team. But, like, they had locked it down.

Were they seventh in goals against last year? They'd been fifth the year before. This has been a very good defensive team. They are now who people thought they were, to misquote Romeo Cornell, and that's a bad, bad thing. They are one of the worst defensive teams in hockey as of today so boys now what i'm out of words that's bad news because we got a lot of time left uh what now is uh you you have to start challenging these guys between the Edmonton Oilers and the Toronto Maple Leafs,

two of the biggest storylines on teams that are supposed to contend and not contend. And I get what you're saying, JB, but they cannot be this bad. They cannot be. Are you saying you think they're JB, but they cannot be this bad. They cannot be. Are you saying you think they're better than this? Yes, I do. And I'm not saying that it's enough to get them to a conference final

or a Stanley Cup final, but there's just no way collectively, you know, if they just tighten up a little bit and start looking after little things, I think there's vast improvement to be made here without necessarily going out there and changing personnel. I just, you don't see it? I think they're bad, man. I think their D's really bad.

They're that bad. I think their defense collectively as a team is really bad. I think Max Domi is a bad defensive really bad i think max domy is a bad defensive player i think john klingberg is one of the worst defensive players in the national hockey league ryan reeves is a train wreck like i don't think that keith can be like here's where you stand in the d zone like if you don't have that commitment it's not a part of your built-in you know one of the things that we talked about this year was that defensive play and the guys who left. And, yeah, you didn't love some of the stuff about Kerfoot

or whether it be Engvall or, I don't know, Hall, Shin, O'Reilly, Bunting, Achari, Lafferty, Kerfoot, all those guys. You may not have loved everything about them, but they defended as a priority, most of them. Not Bunting in that group, but this group here, Kip, I just, I don't think it's on the coach. These guys have been career bad defensive players do you want to make a comment before i go to sheldon keep because

i want to hear him last night and there's things that i picked up from what he said last night where i'm like hot yeah he was hot and he he he should be hot hot, but I think he's a guy that needs to look in the mirror too. He's right in there with them. So do you want to comment before we go to Keefe? Yeah, I'm worried. I'm worried. Yeah, for the first time in this sort of era of Leafs hockey since they've gotten good,

this is the worst that I've seen the supporting cast look. I am legitimately heading into worried about the playoff standing. Oh, boy. I am. All right, let's go to I want Sheldon Keefe on what he saw last night off the clip one for Kippers Clippers. I scored on the penalty kill off a skate and then gave him two gifts. That's how the game got away.

That was a fast clip. Yeah, very fast clip. As fast as the game got away. Getting all set up here. Are you settling in for a good listen? He's done on the clip one. Go clip two. All right, Go clip two. Sullivan's individual. Sullivan's collective within the structure.

Sullivan's just being committed to it. He's sitting here and we celebrate guys who score big numbers and score a ton and all that kind of stuff. We don't talk enough about what we give up. That's the reality. We reality we gotta prioritize keeping the puck out of our net bad news pal we're gonna talk about it well okay okay hold on this is basically kipper but this is me this is your this is me right up my alley here i know i sat here days ago and you are ready to give austin matthews a statue yes okay yes yeah and i'm like time out here i don't care about his 50 or 60 goals right now because it doesn't matter matter when I watch them as a team it is Austin it's Mitch it's Willie and it's Tavares and yes they have good numbers but and it goes to your point we watch the a team and then we've got a bunch of seat fillers. And the last thing they do is look like a true team.

And he nailed it. Individuals, we celebrate Austin Matthews, goal, a game, history, broken records, blah, blah, blah. And he says it, and we said it days ago, a week ago, and now he's catching on. I think it's insane, Kip. I think it's insane to look at that game last

night, and I think he had a hard time with they didn't change in one play. No, no, no, no. They don't change. They don't change. Ever. That's fine. They're the worst line change team. I've played junior fine. I agree. They're the worst line change team. I've played junior hockey. I've played American.

They are the worst I've ever seen. The thing with this, Kip, is that they have been the same core of this team that has had great defensive numbers. They haven't changed. Mitch Marner has been, we talked about him for a selkie. You know, we talked about Matthews in that conversation too. These guys have been great. Not good. They good, great defensive players in their NHL careers. Yes, they have. No, they have not.

They absolutely have. They've been okay, but it hasn't been. I don't know what it is. You don't want to see that. They have been. They've won one round in seven years. Don't tell me they've been great. They haven't scored in those games.

They haven't scored in the years. Don't tell me they've been great. They haven't scored in those games. They haven't scored in the playoffs. It's not transcending to a team structure and environment for them to win. Maybe they've just gotten away with it all this time. And when they've gotten worse, as you

had just mentioned, now it's called upon even more and they've gotten worse they have not gotten better defensively they're getting worse they're getting worse the supporting cast was so much worse that when they have one night where they don't play well it is of course they're in the spotlight because they've been good every other night they are chasing their cookies. That's all they're doing. When you have bad line changes, it's because you want to be out there to get your goal.

And when you watch... Or no one else on your team can get it done. You watch these line changes, and it was the 2-1 goal. Oh, it was the one there, Ottawa's second goal? Ottawa's second goal. Claude Giroux waiting around the corner. We watched Klingberg kind of fall down.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, he fell. But that's Marner, that's Matthews, and that's Nyes. Okay? They're out there close to a minute. Nize wants to go and make one more rush. That had red line and deep written all over it. He was in a one-on-four when he turned it over.

The Hobie Baker guy on the Leafs number one line. I am now going to be this hero here. So I'm going to go up. I'm going to stop up right when when it should be deep and i'm off i'm going to go out and make one more play and i'm going to go find 34 to score another goal he's coming in matthews all of a sudden sees it close off on knives and now he understands that he ain't getting another crack at the cookie. So he's going to have to come off the ice when the play's already going south on them. So now you got Marner, a tired Marner out there.

You got Knives out and then a bad change that he hangs out Max Domi to dry on the back check. And before you know it, it's in the net. That's what he's saying individual. Yeah. That's it right there well he is he saying that's individual or is he saying what am i going to tell you that klingberg klingberg's no good that domi can't help us out defensively like there is individual performances that are not great obviously it has to start as little as line changes i think right nobody notices line changes well and keith does keith

is a big guy on setting up the next line in a right spot i've worked with them enough to know it's a priority for how is it a priority for him when it's been so bad for a long time now i mean i just don't agree that it's been bad for a long time i agree it's been bad this season at times i agree last night there was a bad change there's's a couple bad changes. It's just for me, you know, you're looking at why is this team worse defensively this year? They've been good, whether you think those two have or not Marner and Matthews. The team has had great

defensive numbers for years. So what's different this year? Is it that over 12 or 13 game Matthews and Marner and D Leonard Tavares suddenly stop defending or is it that everything else or 13 game Matthews and Marner and D. Leonard Tavares suddenly stopped defending? Or is it that everything else around them changed and is worse? Because I know which one I think it is. Yeah.

Tavares, they extended their shifts too last night too. I didn't like the. I'd be curious to look at shift lengths of the Leafs for the four guys. I bet if they're longer. The 5-3 goal. The tic-tac-toe with uh with uh tarasenko and uh stutzel yeah another one all three guys deep willie actually made a good change willie made a good change yeah and then but tavaris is going to go back one more crack and it's like and a terrible four check a we looked at that where

it's just like all three guys dive in one pass beats them and it's like and a terrible four check a we looked at that where it's just like all three guys dive in one pass beats them and it's a three on two the other way and klingberg again spinning around like a top just no idea which guy's yeah it just this it's to me it's just fundamentally so bad right now on just those little things that add up to very big things for the leafs yeah and to be honest they've gotten away with it this year, Kip. Like, they have six wins in 13 games, and they're fortunate to have those wins so that they can figure it out and the season's not lost.

You know, like in Edmonton, you win five straight and you're seven and eight. But they're not far off from the Oilers. No, I know. Like, a couple results go the way they potentially should have here in this early season for sure they're like in the oilers conversation they've won a couple overtime games they've snuck out some points they haven't really deserved came back from a 4-1 deficit yeah like it gives them the leeway now to okay you win a couple of games and you're in a

pretty good spot standings wise whatever where the oilers don't have that luxury but they have gotten away with it to be as you know nearly a 500 team here and when i see uh the lack of discipline online changes when i see tired guys when i see i uh the gap um the breakouts where again they they want the 50 foot passes they want how many have been missed and gone for icing this year i've lost track a lot of ice they lead the world the disconnect between the defense and the forwards is horrible and that's why i'm not the first guy to just say their their defense sucks and i know it's not good but i don't know how much better it could be if these guys worked as five men units yeah i have no doubt that it it could be like it could be if they defended the way that last year their team structure was it

would look a lot better that's why i chalk it up to personnel that's to me what's different but you're right if you convince these guys that it's a priority here and you know maybe it wasn't a priority in arizona or it wasn't one in san jose or it wasn't one in anaheim where a lot of these guys came from but they need to understand it's a priority here so maybe there's some learning curve and i know keith talked about that we are half our team new i think he said which is a little dramatic but you know it's it to me is that these guys either haven't played on teams where that structure is that important or they just never will because they haven't in their careers everybody pointing the finger at at the blue line let's get sheldon keefe's thoughts

on what's wrong with the defense last night did we play this oh we did yeah yeah okay so uh how about where you go from here okay then where do you go from here? Okay, then where do you go from here? We'll go to that one. It's early. Maybe it's too early in a lot of guys' minds, but it's time to pull it together here. We've got to get our game in order and do all that we can to take care of each other,

take care of guys who are struggling, whatever position it is, the team, the cohesion of each other, take care of guys who are struggling, whatever position it is, the team, the cohesion of the group, the process that you play with should take care of everybody. And that's where we've been disconnected at times. This is different than some of the things we've gone through in the past.

So the group's got to really pull together here. Okay, keep in mind here in about 15 minutes we're going to go uh and meet up with gordon stelic sports at 590 the fan and of course uh former leaf general manager and always uh welcome his insight uh into our show so uh i don't know if i can recall i i got to go back to my days, guys, when I've seen a guy probably take as much heat as Larry Murphy did in my era. Like, it was ugly.

Oh, yeah. And I don't know if between Larry Murphy and John Klingberg, there's been another guy that... There's been a few. Give me a name. Gardner. Gardner. Beating.

Justin Hall took a beating for multiple years here. But this... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not this bad, this quickly. Oh, this quickly? No. Okay. This is zero to ten.

Yeah. Like that. I don't think I've ever seen. That took a year build up. That was a longer burn. This fast, this quick. Obviously the money is one thing. Come with me. The money is a big thing.

I don't know what that drop was. I don't know that I've ever seen a player with more ability struggle more. Like seeing him skate, he dances over the ice, and he shoots it, and he's crisp with his passing, and it's like, man, this guy, what a bunch of skills. I've never seen someone worse with more tools.

They asked about him last night, and Keefe was just short, and he said they need to protect him better, right? He's starting in the O zone 65% of the time. I don't know. What does that mean, though? Tell me what that means. Just listen to this number. This is from Kevin Papetti on Twitter.

It says, entering tonight's action, there were 188 defensemen with 100-plus minutes at 5-on-5. Klingberg has started just 5.6% of his shifts with a defensive zone faceoff. That ranked 187 of 188. There's not much more Keefe can do. And here's what else i can tell you out of 140 defensemen who have played 150 minutes klingberg is 139 out of 140 in terms of allowing high danger chances when he's on the ice he's almost the worst defenseman in the nhl at allowing chances from in

front of the goal so how do you protect that i don't know how you protect that i i wish he would uh have kind of it might be what you're talking about with team defense like he wants better structure from everyone i'd i'd like the right way i i would like to see yeah everybody under that environment and him included yeah so yeah i i think that's probably what you're talking about. But in the meantime, how do you just kind of hang him out there like this? Well, they're going 7-D. It's like he's a piñata right now. I know. They're going 7-D on Friday night, it sounds like.

Well, they're leaning towards it, the vetting on availability. He did the whole key thing of couching it and making sure everybody's ready. But it looks like Reeves they had a long chat after practice according to all the media members that were there reeves are reeves yeah reeves looking like he might be out to go to 11 and 7 and we're in november but you know i don't i don't mind 11 and 7 because they've basically been going 11 and 7 or 11 and 6 for a lot of the year so i don't know i just you know i've watched a lot of bad players in my day the least but i just it's hard to remember a guy that just makes such glaring errors pretty much every

shift and i feel for him i can't imagine what he's going through yeah he needs a night off like seven may not be the answer he doesn't need to dress and sit on the bench and watch william legacy but he could use just a reset. I agree with that. I think it's the best thing for him. Well, I think what it is is, like, we want you to sit up there and just watch a game, sit one out, take a breath. You know, like, maybe just a different vantage point will help you for a sec. Because this ain't working, right?

You can't just keep doing the same thing. It's just you're delaying the inevitable here. Which is? Guys, I don't want to say he's like you can't load him he's killing you you're trying to be a cup contending window he him and yeah and a few others for sure but For sure, but okay. Anyways. Yeah, listen, something needs to reset or break here. You just can't throw him to the Wolves this weekend against Calgary and Vancouver and think he's going to snap out of it. What's most concerning, I think, for me, is not just the Klingberg thing, but usually when the Leafs have struggled early in the season,

I go to my fancy stats pages and it's like the underlying numbers. They still get a lot of chances. They still don't give up a ton. Like they're in a quadrant of the league with Chicago, Montreal, St. Louis. Like they're in the wrong realm here. So, you know, it's bigger than just Klingberg. Yeah. And today is my day to write for the Toronto Star.

I put an article on the new guys and the patients running thin with all of them, with the exception of Max Domi, who's trending a little bit more upwards with his move at center, his ability to skate, make a pass. It's nice to have someone in the third line who can make a nice dish and full marks to nick robertson for showing a set of hands that's a tough finish to put a backhand sauce it's a beautiful that barely landed and was stretched out and had flying saucer i didn't even think max could make that pass on his back hand, and let alone Nick Robertson would be able to one-time it up and in.

At that point, it looked like, you know, okay, the Leafs did it again. If you zoom out on that game last night, they carried a lot of the play. Like, you know, they weren't, like, horribly outclassed. They got bad goaltending, which we haven't mentioned yet 20 minutes into the show, and it's kind of a big story. Yep. And a couple of glaring defensive errors. Part of the article that I wrote today in the Toronto Star that is on my Real Kipper Twitter account

is the fact that Sheldon's got to get real tough with these guys. And I suggested the best way you can do that and the only way a real coach can do that is you take your candy away from them their candy away from them and that's the ice time and that that that's that's where it's headed here and ryan reeves guys okay can he not start the game like he did that last shift like angry at someone yes yeah can we not see that at the start when the game's on the line not when it's been decided that was a little i i was i could barely walk i was cringing it's horrible we don't need yeah it's not right the time to be and this is where likeEwen wouldn't even look at him.

I go to Sheldon Keefe. Hey, Sheldon, what is he even doing on the ice in the last minute, minute and a half? What do you want him to do out there? You want him to start a fight so he can get suspended and you get fined $10,000? Well, you want Marner out there with a game and a hand down three with Zach McEwen?

But give me anybody else. Yeah. And nothing's going to happen anyways. Nothing is going to happen. But for Ryan Reeves to go out there on the last shift and play Macho Man. I think he feels he's slipping away and knows he has to make himself relevant. That's all it is. What is the point?

Yeah. I just think it's like, what's the point of anyone putting them over the boards? Like, you're just running out the clock at that point. I don't know. But you're right. Reeves is definitely a fire starter in that type of setting. I get it. But if he's looking for something or if he's looking for McEwen, you had 58 minutes between you and your head coach to find out when somebody's on the ice to go send a

message go talk to them go face wash somebody and start a scrum that doesn't necessarily can put your team in the penalty box for two minutes like third and fourth liners know how to do that yeah without costing their team that's what you're paid for that's what you're you're And it's like third and fourth liners know how to do that. Yeah. Without costing their team. That's what you're paid for. That's what your experience is supposed to do. It's a tough role. Your job out there is to change energy or to add energy. And there's so many different ways to do it.

And since those first two games for Ryan Reeves, nothing. Feathers. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and like their best shift they get scored on last night, right? Yeah, maybe their best shift of the season. Yeah. And then it just goes down the other way and goes in your net. It's just such a hodgepodge of fourth line.

They called up Holmberg again, sounds like, which is something. You know, we have Keefe on comparing the slow start. We have him on the adversity. You know, can it help a team? Either those appeal to you, or do you want to go to him today on progress defensively? He was much more positive today. Well, those clips so far were from last night, right?

Yeah. And we hear a little bit more spring in his step today in his comments. I bet he liked the video. Let's throw to one of his clips from the morning skate. Clip seven, Derek. Again, I look at the last couple of games different than what we've had. I think we've been pretty connected defensively. Again, we're not giving up a lot.

It's just these key moments. Yesterday, that goal to start the first or second period, we're on the ice too long. We're tired. We're back-checking tired. We can't defend tired in the NHL. So it's just little things like that. When we're fresh and we're competing, we're defending well.

It's just these moments we've got to do better. Today's practice, guys battled, competed, maybe as hard as we have all season in practice today, especially for a practice coming off of a game night. That, to me, shows that the guys are well aware of what's going on and they want to fix it. But I see things trending in a positive direction. I think Lagasin and Benoit coming in,

these guys have given us good minutes, and there's something for us to build upon there. Yeah, see, I'm more on his side right now. Okay. I am. In what way? They've been really good except for the moments where we're horrible. That led to six goals for the other team.

The glaring mistakes are in their net, but there are moments when they're right there and they'll go up a goal, and then a minute later they're tied again or they're down a goal. And it is. I don't think that they're that far off. They just need to tighten up on little things.

And he can't get off the, now he's on my train here. He can't get off of the bad changes and the too long and too tired. And like, if he can clean that up, I think he takes care of 30, 40% of his issues right now. I am in no position to argue that. I agree, Kip, that like that's a priority is details and getting everything tight because you know you can score and if you're a good defensive positions you know you can score i just have watched this team go into the playoffs

and watched how little breakdowns can kill you against seasoned nhl cup contenders like tampa bay and you know all of a sudden you look at some of your guys in those positions and go, God, you just can't have Galchenyuk out there. Or you just can't have whoever it is. And it feels like there's six of those guys on the team right now. So keep it tight. You'll win more regular season games.

If we want to talk about season-long things, they're probably going to have to do some things in terms of changing their personnel. Yeah. If I'm out there as a Leaf fan, I wouldn't hold my breath just yet on that. I can tell you that he's trying right now. It just seems too early right now.

For tree living. Yeah. Yeah. And I know he's knocking on Calgary's door right now. For tree living. Yeah. And I know he's knocking on Calgary's door right now. Yeah. Well, they play Friday night. I imagine he knows Craig Conroy

fairly well. Leave Tanev and Zdorov in town. And yes. Can Calgary play tonight and lose for us? Yes. Nick Robertson is called up this week because he's deserved's deserved it but this is deeper than that this is this is building his stock up there and getting him in a position maybe to help you on the blue line so uh since he's been back it hasn't hurt him he's been very good he's

like an nhler he has. Oh, for sure. In those two games this year than he has ever before. God, you watch him go 40 goal guy in Calgary. Could happen. No question. That goal won't help or won't hurt Brad Tree living in a situation if Calgary needs him. Yeah. Needs some scoring.

Yeah. Well, that's one that I think leafs fans have mentally parted ways with i think a couple times so i think they'd be okay with that if they could make that happen but calgary would have to get to a point where they're sellers yeah it's a month into the season i hope i hope they get there all right let's go uh before we get to uh we should break we're gonna break and then come back to gourd oh my god we, my God. We got so much more to talk about. We didn't even talk about Woley the goalie yet. We're going to talk about Woley the goalie

and perhaps the Leafs shopping for a goalie. A what? Stick around after the break. I'll tell you about it, JV. What a tease. All right. More real Kipper and Bourne after these words get smarter when you listen to hockey talk the hockey pdo cast with dimitri filipovich subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts

all right welcome back into the tim mAuliffe studio here at Sportsnet. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, and let's welcome in, for the next 15 solid minutes, it's Stelictricity. Gordo, how are you? I am great, Kipper. Justin, how are you guys doing? Well, I think better than a lot in leaf nation so uh let me ask you something because i think we've been seeing this movie before slow start

and then last year i think the leafs went into november winning 13 of 16 something really ridiculous and all was good again how far is how far away is this club from ripping off 13 of the next 16 oh boy yeah you know i mean kippy it's kind of like whichever kid of yours i know your kids did pretty well i think academically but you know it's the same old thing that every year you're taking calculus and you hire a tutor and you get extra help. And it's the same thing when you get the report card at one point, you get excited and now you're hovering around a C or something. So I and then all of a sudden you're supposed to get an 80 the next time around. Thirteen out of 16. Yeah, I can't see that.

There has to be. But the whole point is, again, we're talking a level of consistency as far as the games go. And why can't they kick ass at home? Like, why can't you make Scotiabank Arena a difficult arena to come into, especially in the playoffs, compared to whatever the kind of hockey we've seen there of late? Gord, do you see a lot of the problems? You know, Keith had kind of gotten on his top guys for some of the defensive play last game, or at least implied that, you know, what their output doesn't matter. Do you see the problem there? Kip and I were just yelling at each other.

Do you see the problem in the bottom part of the roster? What's the biggest issue with the Leafs' defensive woes here? Well, yeah, I mean, two parts. When you talk about the bottom part of the roster, you realize you've got big four forwards, and basically everyone's new every year or two which is kind of a problem you don't have the zach hyman's and connor browns and you know other guys coming up but on the d yeah boy oh boy last year uh last year justin there was that stretch if you remember when morgan ronnie got hurt tj brody got hurt of course jake muzzin was hurt pretty well all the

season and you thought that was when okay they're going to be especially vulnerable maybe have to when Morgan Riley got hurt, TJ Brody got hurt. Of course, Jake Muzzin was hurt pretty well all the season. And you thought that was when, okay, they're going to be especially vulnerable, maybe have to go get some. And other guys like Giordano played really well. Morgan Riley is when he played really well then, and they stayed the course there. In this particular case, it just seems that all of a sudden this year, Giordano getting more minutes hasn't been the ticket. You get a couple of D injured, and let's throw Connor Timmons in as the third D that's injured I don't

know how he could play or not but at least he's a serviceable NHL defenseman and the new guys really weren't all that bad but just the D as a whole has been lacking and you know this this style they're playing right now I think back a lot of years ago, Kip will remember, Justin probably too young. But, you know, Doug Carpenter had that team that won every game 8-6. Well, you can only do that for a year. That's got to be a team that's trying, you know, it's fun. But then after that, he got fired like 11, 12 games into the next season. And they had to bring in the Dave Ellots, the Jamie McCallons, the Bob Rouses, the Sylvain Lefebvre that kind of, you know, stabilized the D for the great teams up front with Gilmore, Anderchuk and company.

So I just mean, like we've always known that. They've doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down cap-wise on the forwards. And it's a bit chancy on the D side, particularly with the depth. When you talk about the goaltending, for me, Gord, on a list of priorities, it's not the first or second place I'm looking at right now. But, you know, with Wall starting out of the gate like a house on fire and then maybe coming down to earth a little bit here, where do you see the goaltending moving forward?

I really like Joe Wall. I really like Joe Wall moving forward. So I think they've got that one right. And again, when you go back to the D, we've talked about not developing goaltenders. It looks like Joe Wall they've had. They really haven't developed D from within. You know, Morgan Riley, hopefully Lilligren is that case.

But on the goaltending side, they seem to have got it right. I know it wasn't his best game, to say the least, last night. I know Samsonov, you're talking about a guy that's had a difficult start, but a guy that was a decent goaltender last year. They got fortunate that Martin Jones was able to clear waivers early and is a guy with NHL experience if they need him depth-wise. But ideally, you want the tandem to play and play well. But as long as Joe Wall can give you the kind of goaltending Vegas got

from kind of unknowns last year, you'll be fine. And I'm really big on him. I'm really bullish on him. And I think that's one thing that's good for the future. And that's one thing I don't worry about. You know, when you're looking at things that need to hold for the Leafs to be not just a playoff team, but competitive in the playoffs, you know, Mark Giordano is a guy who's been leaned on a lot here.

They talked about using him less. They talked about backing off his minutes. And it just doesn't seem like they're able to give him that rest. You know, how do you think they should be handling a guy like him who, you know, last night he putt goes in off his skate, but, you know, he's working his heart out out there. But, boy, it's going to be tough for him to maintain this over 82 games. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, he had some bad luck last night as well. I mean, like when you're looking ahead to the playoffs as well, you can really get – I mean, Chicago got by with three defensemen that one year. You know, they kind of snuck some guys on for odd shifts. I mean, so if you have four that are going well, you really shorten the bench and a guy like Giordano would be someone playing a lot less minutes, but you're right, Justin, as far as 82 games to play that amount,

I'd like to see maybe give the new guys a little bit more. I thought they've looked okay. I know they're kind of no names for people. You don't, you don't have the wow thing about somebody coming up with a lot of NHL experience, but you're kind of stuck with that. You're, you know, I, I, um, the D D never become available on the waiver wire. Okay. if anyone's got a half-decent defenseman, they hang on to them. I know Brad Treliving has had a history of good deed, whether it's trading them or drafting them or signing them as free agents

with the Calvary Flames. But, you know, we can't keep thinking the remedy is always going to be a trade or somebody new. So, you know, like Sheldon Keefe pretty candid last night about it. It's just, as a team, it's not good out. They've got to see what the Boston Bruins lose to elite players who retire. And all of a sudden, because people buy into that system, they're where we thought the Toronto Maple Leafs would be.

Like six years ago, we thought the Toronto Maple Leafs would supplant the Boston Bruins. And here we are six years later, and what's the big reason? Because they're buying into that kind of team defense system. We're talking to Gord Stelic, 590, the fans, Leaf analyst and former general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Gord, there was a real sense when he signed the UFAs this summer, led by Ryan Reeves, that there was going to be a different feel,

a different look. The term snot was used by the general manager, Brad Tree Living. Where are you in terms of that? And will it ever get to the place that we first thought it would get to, to start the season? Well, you don't want a bunch of Nick Ritchies. And Nick Ritchie, at least there was Michael Bunting, that was able to seize the opportunity, and Nick Ritchie never was.

We know, like David Clarkson years ago wasn't. in Calgary will Jonathan Huberto and that's a big big one ever be able to fit in it's and so we've seen snippets it's encouraging that Bertuzzi gets an even strength goal you know Domi's had a bit unevenness about games but again yeah so it's been disappointing so far the big worry now about Klingberg, because you knew what he was and having to play more ice time, and if you're not buying into a team defensive system, he's going to be exposed a little bit more in that regard. So, you know, Reeves does what he's supposed to do,

but that fourth line was like minus five, right, the first six or seven games. That's something they've got to try to avoid. I mean, you almost want a guy like we're looking big. These guys have all had big seasons before. Domi played really well as a playoff addition the last two years, you know, reclaimed his career. Bertuzzi, a bit of a wild card.

That 30 goals was a couple of seasons ago with Detroit. But you almost want someone to play like Mason Raymond did that one year. Okay, now that was a non-playoff team. But he came for one year, got 19 19 goals and just kind of fit in and right now we're not getting that kind of fit and you know part of the problem kippy is you realize that every year or two it's really there isn't continuity because you've got the big four and there's not a lot of continuity on the third or fourth lines that tampa bay and boston have a few more that have been around for a couple of years. Well, is it reasonable to expect that, you know, because there's so many new guys that

if, if left alone, this team could just gel like, you know, I'm been sitting here today saying changes, changes, changes, you know, is it possible that there's so many new guys, everyone gets comfortable, they find a role and everything just kind of comes together. Absolutely. Justin. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it just, uh, it's, uh's just, it's like, look at 24 hours ago.

Because of the game Monday, everything was great in Toronto when Ottawa was full of gloom and doom. And here we are a day later, Ottawa wins a big game, happy days are here again, and we're back to this re-evaluating about the Maple Leafs. And, you know, you've got to, when you go out and sign certain players, you've got to try to put them in situations to give them a chance to have success. And they, you know, when they put Bertuzzi on the big line, they're certainly doing that.

You also have to have the toughest thing to have is patience. And you have to have that to a degree. But you also have to identify sometimes if it's not working out. And only, you know, you know within when you're breaking things down about what's, you know, what's going on or not. But, yeah, like everybody, whether whatever kind of job it is is needs some kind of time to see where they can find their niche hey look ottawa puts a new line together last night and those three just had a you know a nice kind of gel and you know i'm not saying you keep putting lines in the blender all the time but just that's what you have to look at and you do have to give it a chance the tough part is we're in toronto

okay and there's expectations now and there's a lot and there's a lot of scrutiny and as the clock keeps ticking all of a sudden you know you're at the 25 game mark and it still hasn't happened and it gets more and more difficult and there's more and more pressure i want to talk to you about this uh that pressure because you've lived it uh as a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. And the schedule is not getting any easier. Calgary tomorrow night. Vancouver Saturday night. Where do you think their sense of urgency is to

kind of turn this around now? Because we've heard the boo-birds out there, Gord, for this hockey club. And you don't want that to snowball, do you? No. And Kippy, I'm to snowball, do you? No. And, Kippy, I'm breaking the news on your show. Sweeping changes coming. Sweeping changes coming to the front office.

Just so you know, a complete change. We're going to go back 40 years. And that's what's going to be coming the next couple of days. Wow. Look at Gord. Yeah. I had a tough night the night before. I was 23 years old. I think I had a tough night the night before. I was 23 years old.

I think I had a tough night, but still a good-looking guy. I'll tell you right now, you haven't lost one hair. It is incredible. You got a great lettuce, my friend. Well, I should eat more lettuce, too. I get a whole great package. But, you know, the pressure is you got to think. Now, Sheldon Keefe, you know, like the biggest thing is you see when Lindy Ruff all of a sudden gets a new contract.

There's not so much pressure. He's not afraid to bench a few guys and try things. I think Sheldon Keefe has a little bit more confidence in that regard. You understand if you're coaching the Toronto Maple Leafs about the pressure. Brad Treliving, been in a Canadian market as well. You know, you've got to think that. Ownership doesn't seem to put pressure on them. You know, you almost think, you know, when I saw Michael Anlauer last week in Ottawa,

I go, can we get that the odd time with the Toronto Blue Jays or the Toronto Maple Leafs? Like, can we get that? Can we bring out, you know, like, you know, I know that's the old-time owners and that, but I don't know, just sometime, you know, you want to hear that they give a bleep. I know they do, but, you know, fans, you know, want to hear that a bit.

I mean, Pat Quinn had more of that when he was around. So, but the pressure part is that's something they can't succumb to. They've got to look at, you know, and like Sheldon, he said you've got to get the basics. You can't, these core four are exciting. I love the games, but if they're going to do all the scoring and you don't do enough defense, you're not making the kind of strides that make you better as a team and better in the playoffs.

So there's just that pressure all the time, but it seems like Kyle Dubas certainly had the support of ownership all those years, just one playoff rounds one play one one playoff round and that so that's more pressure if you got someone leaning on you all the time with those kinds of expectations they they seem to you know give them give them a long long long long leash to see what they can do and try to figure it out. Gord you mentioned Kyle Dubas one of the things that he did well in my opinion was he cut bait when he made mistakes you know he was able to say richie's not working i'm gonna

get rid of him peter brazic's not working let's just tape a pic to him and get him out of here like got rid of the mistakes which you know i know some people didn't like the cost but it didn't stay on the team hurting you how hard is that for general manager like for tree living right now to go i gotta get rid of Klingberg I just signed, or Reeves, I just, like, can he even do it and save face? Well, the tough one with those is they cost draft picks. And, you know, and I know Patrick Marleau was a Lula Amorella trade.

It cost you a first round pick. And, you know, eventually those accumulate that you've got, that was Seth Jarvis, who's not a bad NHL player right now for Carolina. So that's only the little bit of the downside downside is I don't mind getting rid of the mistake but when you gotta you know swing a trade with Chicago and involves a first round pick or what have you to try to get rid of the contract that becomes even more problematic the good thing is these guys just having one year okay they're all on one year deals so you're not stuck beyond that

and you know really uh if if they don't work out at all, it's not like they're a cap problem next year or whatever. I mean, Klingberg last year, I'm getting ahead of myself, but he was a trade deadline pickup by another team. And, you know, you wonder if they might have it that way. But, I mean, that's bloom and dew if you're thinking in that regard. But I do agree about you cannot be totally always sold on your players and you kind of get pissed off at the coach not making them look good darn it they're gonna play they're

gonna play better you know you gotta say you know what it's not working out you're right you're right about that justin it's not working out and you know kyle certainly did that in a few cases i agree and i don't think brad dribbling should be ready to do that yet but again and nick nick ritchie was another one because he signed multiple years that it cost you something to move them. But these ones would be a little bit easier. Gord, always a pleasure having you on our show. Have a great time.

Hall of Fame weekend. Not All-Star. That'll be here soon enough. Congrats on the book, too. Tell us about Revival. Yeah, Revival. I'll be real quick here. Another time.

This is what this team needs. This is like that 77, 78 Leafs. Anyway, it's about the 1970s, putting together all that team. It all came about because of last weekend, Borea Somming's visit and how iconic he was and how well he was received. And Damien Cox and myself, we said, hey, Darryl Sittler's like that.

Tiger Williams is like that. Lanny McDonald is. So we talked to them, talked to Mike Palmatier, Ian Turmo. It's just that it led up to that great year in 77-78 when they beat the New York Islanders. And then it all came apart after. So really pleased how it turned out. I appreciate the mention there, Justin. And I know a lot of people have books out.

I saw I can't read on the other time, but hopefully you consider that one for the Christmas season. I think it's a good read. Awesome stuff. Stelictricity. Thanks, man. Appreciate it, guys. Gord Stelic.

You don't remember that series, do you? 77, 78? Yeah, vividly. It was in the front row. You were playing miniskirt. Yeah, I'm not. In your mom's womb? Yeah, not yet. That was in the front row. In your mom's womb? Yeah, not yet. Yeah, mine too.

78, 79? Mine too. Well, so, you know, I have made the analogy about the Islanders to the Leafs and getting through whatever. It was the Leafs that upset these very good Islanders that weren't tough enough to get through. Lenny, overtime goal. Yeah, there you go. I was at Ross Halperin's house at a party. Ross, Dr. Ross to you.

My neighbors made it big. Yeah, apparently. If he goes on waivers does he get claimed boy i i just think in the salary cap situation so many teams are in i just don't think he does i mean lots team one one d help but i just don't think they do could be i think it's highly unlikely again uh that's a lot of money yeah first of all i is there one contending team out there that would add his salary right now you just have to say is there a team that can't score you know that wants to up there they're too low event like the flames don't score a ton yeah do they want a guy who can run the power play and give up more goals against?

Hey, quickly. You said about a goalie before we went to break. Yeah, listen. I think the Leaf management team is waking up today, and I don't think that they've lost total confidence in anything between the Nets, but you've got to really practically look at this right now between where Samsonov is and where is he, where he's been since training camp.

And, you know, how do you dig them out of this? And, and where is he mentally here? And if, if things don't turn around fairly, so you're going to make some hard decisions here on whether or not you think

you might have to go out and get another goalie you cannot leave joseph wall in this scenario for 70 more games when you're trying to get samson off you need a mentally and physically ready and that's an issue right now and if he's if samsonov can come back and be that guy and they can work together then wonderful but if he can't and he continues to struggle then you've got to start looking around and one team that's out there that has a bit of a three-headed monster includes the calgary flames now dustin wolf is the next great goalie. Called up today. Who's supposed to be out of the league, who just got called up today.

And Vladar is out there at $2 million. And, you know, would that be of interest to the Leafs if they can't straighten out Samsonov? Yeah, it just, you know, I think it would be what kills me is the idea of you just won't want them to work out because you don't want to spend assets there when you have so many other goals. It's like when they traded for Riddick. November becomes December.

December becomes January. You're right. I'll take the Lidard. All right. I'm exhausted, and we're only halfway through our show. After the Leafs deal. We go national after the break. Plenty more.

What do we have in the second hour? Bob Stauffer. Bob Stauffer. Oiler talk. We're going Oilers tonight. A very dangerous game. We'll tell you all about it in the next hour. Stick around.

We'll be right back.