Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Fighting in Philly

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Leafs hockey is back after a short break, and Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with a look ahead at their game against the Flyers tonight. To help preview the matchup, they are joined by Leafs writer Anthony Petrielli (6:59), who discusses how McMann went from healthy scratch to a new extension and goes through the roster to put together the team's optimal line combinations. Later, Charlie O'Connor (31:41) of PHLY Sports shares a Flyers POV of the game, their playoff chances after selling at the deadline, the buzz around Matvei Michkov and the Tortorella experience.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

welcome in to the real kipper and born show which is the way that kipper says it which is weird frankly that he calls it the kipper and born show like we're a 1980s carnival act of some variety but anyway why is that weird it's the name of the show welcome to real kipper and born does he say the show oh yeah welcome to the real kipper and born show. Does he say the show? Oh yeah. Welcome to the real Kipper and Bourne show. Like we're going to be juggling stuff. Okay. So we're on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360 and Sportsnet Plus. You can get our podcast wherever you get your pods, which Sammy tells me

is something called a pod catcher. I believe a pod catcher is a thing. Like Spotify, Apple. Yeah. Those are pod catchers for you. There's lots of different ones. Pod catcher. Yep. Yep. And you can remember to always text us at 590 590 and590, and we will try to get to a couple of texts. Not as common, not on Fridays, but if one catches Sammy's eye, he will bring it up.

So today, we have a Toronto Maple Leafs game. Sammy, we're back. Yeah. Feels like that early in the season when they went to Sweden and they just didn't play for, like, it was a week they didn't play. Then they played, and then it was another week that they didn't play and it kind of feels like that again it's been a long time since they played that Saturday night game which was far from a Picasso where they squeaked by the Habs but yeah it's nice to finally get to see

them play again and play a real team yeah and a playoff team their team that's in the playoffs but like do they want to be I'm actually really looking forward to talking to Charlie O'Connor later about this because I really don't get what they are. Because I understand what they're doing, but as a team right now, I don't really understand them fully. They're kind of Nashville where they're like, we're not going to be great this year. We're going to finish 20th.

We'll just do our best and kind of move this, you know, rebuild along. And then they won and won and won. Now they're like, I guess we'll trade for a guy. I got to tell you, buddy, I watched your broadcast last night and we'll get more of this in the national hour but are you sure nashville isn't just really good i think they're okay they're better than i thought yes they would be they're better than i thought they were two weeks ago like they they're just fast and they play hard on the puck and they seem to be getting good coaching in the jets last night you've got the take that they're extremely well coached.

Yes, I do. So we'll do a little bit more of that in the national hour. But, yeah, I was watching you on TV last night. You look great in a suit, bud. Thanks, man. And your teeth are all intact. I will throw this in very quickly. 1 o'clock today, 1245 maybe,

I was driving into work and drinking out of a Gatorade bottle and just kind of bit it. I can't really explain why I just do that sometimes. And my tooth just broke in half. Like, I am a hockey player. I don't have real teeth. And half a crown was dangling off. I looked like Tyler Bertuzzi.

But you could see the nub that a crown goes on, which is, like, yellowed. It's not been looked after, obviously, inside the tooth. I looked awful. And my shout out to tooth life studio and woodbine and gerard and got her done for you yeah they got me short notice i mean i literally was in there and 20 minutes after it happened within an hour they glued the piece which i found at the bottom of the gatorade bottle

you can't bite water so for six weeks I have to just not use my front teeth. That is gross. I know, super gross. But I'm a hockey player. It's part of the deal. Yeah. Speaking of hockey players, yesterday we talked a bit about Bobby McMahon, who signed his contract.

We've only got a little bit of time before we get to Anthony Petrilli, but we do have some clips I wanted to get to. I was listening to what Sheldon Keefe had to say this morning, as I always do in Morning Skate, and I didn do in Morning Skate. And I didn't anticipate to talk more about Bobby McMahon, really, because, you know, this is classic Leaf media, Leaf fan to, like, talk about this for a while. But what Sheldon Keefe had to say about him this morning actually stood out to me in terms of how he got here.

So I just thought it was a good clip and we could kind of riff off the back of it, Derek, if you want to play that on McMahon. It's confidence and ability paired with elite work ethic, size and strength, power, like all these things that he has going for him. He checks a lot of boxes that you're looking for for guys coming into the league but you don't you don't get to play in the league and come in as a 27 year old rookie without really believing in yourself and staying with it and working incredibly hard he's also fought through a number of injuries as well he's had a hard time staying healthy. So, you know, a lot of guys, quite frankly, with more ability than Bobby,

they quit and they give up and they don't have the same drive and same habits and same commitment to it. So this is obviously very well-deserved and hard-fought for a contract uh for bobby okay first off sheldon sounds like i used to when i was hung over yeah yeah listen i i know what that sounds like yeah it's like a saturday morning when you're like the gravelly your mom called you like she's like oh have some fun last night uh but getting by the grovelly voice and a man who has been sick i think and going through the rigors of an nhl season they've had four days off so i don't know why he's feeling so grumpy but just to go through what he said there it it is to me a huge testament to

bobby mcmahon but also just to opportunity and taking advantage of an opportunity and not a full season but you know because he played games before what happened a couple weeks ago where he gets in he gets a hat trick but he just you know he changed his perception from the organization within three weeks enough to make himself 2.7 million dollars and to me that is why you take the money and he's talking about him being injured and you talk about all that like it really is an incredible sort of story for him and i i gotta give him a ton of credit i love what keith said about it yeah and i love the phrase you know uh elite work ethic yeah which is a cool thing for a guy who shoots it like he does he skates as well as he does he's as big as he is to pair that with with a work ethic you know i read a feature on him i know

luke had written a little bit on him luke fox and um you know talking with a work ethic you know i read a feature on him i know luke had written a little bit on him luke fox and um you know talking about how he's you know they're not from a ton of money his dad was a you know hard work and shift work kind of guy and you know put in the hours um you know to to get to this point where you get a seven figure guaranteed contract well earned and i think also adaptability where he wasn't a physical guy. You know, I think we've talked about in college that his teammates said, you know, I don't know if he threw a hit in college, but here he is that guy.

And there's another quote from Keith the day before with McMahon where he said, you know, someone asked him what he wanted to see the rest of the year. And he was talking about cohesion. He's like, our forwards have been the same, but our D are different. So I want to see cohesion there. And on the front, the emergence of Bobby McMahon changes things. They're looking at his development as like, we have different options now because we believe we can play him

not just on the fourth line now. Yeah, he's a real guy. He's a real guy. Also a real guy. Burt? No, I was going to say, did somebody say that we have Petrelli in my ear? Oh, I don't know.

Oh, okay. Oh, you do. That's great. I didn'trelli in my ear? Oh, I don't know. Oh, okay. I didn't get that in my ear. Oh, okay. Okay. I thought for a second that I was just hearing things. I was on the big desk and I'm like, oh no, am I hearing things now? But we do have them.

Awesome. We're joined now by Anthony Petrelli, a writer at Maple Leaf Hot Stove and a guy that we reference on the show constantly because he follows his team as closely as anyone and does great work. Thanks for joining us, man. How are you? I'm good, guys. How about you? I'm good, guys. How about you? We're good.

We're good. We just spent like seven minutes talking about Bobby McMahon for the second straight day. Are we overdoing it? No, not at all. He's entirely earned that contract extension. I'm excited for the team and for Bobby that they were able to get it done

because there's definitely a Leaf playoff premium that comes into play at times. So avoiding that is a win altogether, I think. For sure. Yeah, that's interesting that you say that because that was Bunk's take yesterday when he was mentioning that. That he may have passed up money.

They took the cash out a little bit here, right? Well, look at Ilya Labushkin, right? He comes to Toronto. Was he getting the 2.7 and change that he did without that i'm not sure luke shen last year i don't know if he was in line for three years and 2.75 before coming to toronto i would argue probably not yeah so you come to toronto you have a few good playoff games it's you know it's everywhere guys i guess blow you off all of a sudden it's like hey i would never yeah you got the leaf shine up and uh guys like us are talking about it on the radio and you make extra money yeah nice nice to be able to facilitate that

so one of the things that you do particularly well um is just discuss roster construction and what's the optimum build um in my time with the marlies we actually would get a printout from the rnd team here's what we you know statistically here's our optimal lineup but then you break it down it's like okay we can't have these pkers together because they're not they're on different lines and you know there's a lot that goes into the thought process so i think we should just start at the top um of the of the roster at the leafs and you know today keith talked about having bertuzzi back on the top line with Matthews and Marner.

How do you see the top six of this team heading into playoffs? What's their best look? I mean, I still think their optimum look is they can spread out three lines. I think it's really tough on them come playoff time, especially when you look at who they're playing. It kind of feeds into the top team's hands right like all the top teams have good players and we saw it last year with bark off

like he effectively shut down matthews and marner and that was basically the series we saw bruce cassidy talking about it a few weeks ago when he came into toronto uh just mentioning playing three lines how he believes that's the way to do it you could hear it when and what he was saying in terms of how it made Toronto a more difficult game plan for him. Like realistically, it plays into team's hands. If you're just going to load up your top guys, like your top guys have to be incredible and really, really be, you know, the juice has to be worth the squeeze. If you're going to stack up the way that they have tended to do almost awkwardly

at times as we saw last year it's like they acquire ryan o'reilly and instead of instinctively trying to build three lines what was the first thing they did it's like let's cram them into the top six and have john tavaris play wing for probably the first time in his entire life yeah it's like a month left in the season so i'm very interested 15 points that first game the three of them played together yeah are we uh do they get points for that like is that does that count i don't know anyways but i'm very curious to your point though about how this bertuzzi yarn crock matthews line looks because i mean i wouldn't go as far as to say it's optimal. But what I would say is if they were good enough to be a legit line and Matthews could still generally produce. And then you look at the combination of the other six guys to spread out against on like not your top line, meaning Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Bertuzzi, McMahon, and realistically Domi, I mean, that's a really, really good and also dangerous spot to be. Because you look at Boston, it's like they're running a third line

with Trent Frederick and James Van Riemsdyk, and the Leafs should be chomping at the bit with what they seem to believe is newfound depth to what you were talking about with Bobby McMahon. Now, if that, if that Yarncrock combination does not work and Bertuzzi does not work, now you're probably back into the territory of, you know, Marner goes back with Matthews realistically. Like it's either, it's going to be this like Yarncrock kind of thing, or it's going to be Marner. And no, and then all I was going to say from there is you have I think eventually they'll realistically have to go back to that Nylander Tavares Bertuzzi line they were legitimately their best line I thought for the first half of the season like I didn't really think it was close but then we've also just seen Matthews and Marner kind of turn it on in the past couple months

yeah the thing to me is that there's these ideas that we all have where you know it'd be amazing to spread them out over three lines and we can all sit here and talk about it but we all have watched this coach for however many years now is it five years he's been the coach where the second it goes bad it's just like old old faithful immediately it's gonna be tavara's matthews kneel in second period game one. I don't feel like there's any situation where Domi is going to be a long-term solution at center in the playoffs.

He's going to watch it. He's going to see what happens in the first couple games and he's immediately going to pivot off of it and it's not going to continue. I really don't believe that he's going to stick with it. I don't. Here's what I will say on some of that, though. Just because we talk about Marner

not necessarily being with Matthews to start a game, doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Like, 100% they're going to play together, and it would be insane if they did not play together. Like, they're two elite players. They complement each other really well. I actually think at times, like, they're so talented,

and I hope I articulate this correctly, but it's, it's almost as if they get complacent with how good they are, you know, like they don't usually come out gunning for bear in the first period of the game. They usually just kind of get going as things get along or the game gets

tighter. Like I almost think there's something to you spread it out to the start, get everyone's feet wet, get everyone involved. And then at strategic times, you load up appropriately, which again, they 100% should do. But it's just getting everyone involved, right? I think we've seen over the past month and a half here, there are more good players here than I think a lot of people gave credit for originally the Leafs included. So, you know, you mentioned Matthews playing with two non Marner and Nylander humans, which to me is something that has always been a bit of a cheat code for this team that they've never really looked at.

And a lot of the time, you know, you wonder why that is. And it's probably because the best player on the team, the highest paid player on the team, maybe talks to the coach. It's like, I like playing with Mitch Marner a lot. And, you know, I'm not saying that that's, they should continue that way. But I think they should just stick with this and kind of not make them do it, I guess.

But, I mean, you're good enough. You're Austin Matthews to be able to play with Yarncroft and Bertuzzi. Sid did this many years of his career. If you're able to have some sort of success, that just frees up the rest of the roster so much that you really do become dangerous like you really feel that you need to stick with this and see if it can work provided bertuzzi to be honest i think the bigger

thing is bertuzzi holds up his end of the bargain yeah i think we know what yarn crook is and he's pretty solid and uh you know born i know we were talking about it just over text, like not a great shinny player if you're Bertuzzi, right? Like you can't be fanning on pucks in the slot all night. Bertuzzi would be the best Maple Leaf if the game was eight on eight.

Like the more bodies and congestion, he'd be the most effective player. Yeah, looking like Renny Park out there. Just 10 guys each side. And I love what he brings. It's not to knock on him. He does so many good things. I know.

He does so many good things i know he does so many good things yeah and so but like at the same time you can't be fanning on pucks consistently in the slot you know there was a play in that habs game where a habs defenseman lost the handle on the puck when he was walking the blue line and it just like it trickled to bertuzzi so slowly and he still somehow like topped it and missed it and the puck just stayed in the zone and you're like how like why how did this he has this thing about like not caring about his stick right he's got no tape on it the stick like maybe 10 minutes of finding a curve that worked maybe tape the stick perhaps that would help it's not a crazy suggestion. It is very frustrating to watch. So in talking about where all these guys go,

there's one suggestion for me that I find palatable but I don't think you do, is David Kampf third line center. And to me, if he's making two and a half or whatever, two and a quarter, enough money, he has scored 15 goals in a season, he is defensively responsible. If you take a couple of the guys who don't have consciences like say max domey yeah you know and perhaps a guy i don't know if you think nize or whoever it may be mcmahon can play with them but can you live with with camp

getting more of an opportunity than he's had this year so you're thinking about it like oil and water right like you're thinking camp covers for Domi. Yes. Yes. I'm saying put them with a couple of guys who think one way and say you're the high guy all the time. I was going to suggest the other way, to be honest, like the complete other way. It's like if you play them with like McMahon and Yarncroft and they're just like a really good line that you can trust at all times that can kind of just go out on a road and settle a game down when it's getting silly in Boston. Just become the lowest event line on earth.

Yeah, to be honest, it gets more silly in Toronto for some reason. They've been notably worse this year in Toronto. It's like, can you go settle us down from our own yips in front of our own home crowd kind of thing? In that scenario, I think he works. I guess I would look at it. It's not the end of the world to look at anything at this rate. our own home crowd kind of thing like in that scenario i think he works i i guess like i would look at it it's not the end of the world to look at anything at this rate i just i didn't like it at the beginning of the season like did you i thought it was a strange combination when they

were together and it ultimately fizzled out and i think domi just got progressively worse on the wing but it was early in the season so you know that could be a factor of any number of things new team probably wasn't expecting to start on left wing with david camp as a center like any number of factors could realistically go into that like i think he'd dig in a little bit more come playoff time as all guys do so like i just i guess i would say what would be the role then well that's that is the challenge to me it's it's kind of like a guy that we're going to get to in a second where it's a guy like Lilligran or whatever. It's like, I typically do like specialist type guys,

but to me, it's trying to keep two offensive players on the ice, particularly a guy like Domi who can make plays and break games open and say, I can trust that I can put this line out in a tie game and they still might get me one where I'm not sure that I feel comfortable on all offensive line. I would like to see Domi get a run with a lot of skill for some

stretch of time, but I just don't know if the roster the way you can put it together it's going to work. I think if he plays with Matthews and Marner the roster can fall in okay. I don't know. Some people don't. The team just seems to not want to do that. They're aware it's an option, and they have it for 64 games. It seems to be more that chess piece again that we talked about

where it's like at times, why don't you just throw him out there for an offensive zone? You're like stealing minutes. You add in a minute here, a minute there. He can 100% take an offensive zone faceoff. He's a productive player. He's been a productive player most of his career. He can take an offensive zone face off he's a productive player he's been a productive player most of his career he can take an offensive zone face off with Matthews and and Marner and probably even stir the pot a little bit which is what they need sometimes of just

getting some like emotion going on that line which they've often lacked I mean I'm not looking at Matthew Nyes as a rookie in the league to like stir up emotion so i could see him having that sort of energizer bunny effect so to speak yeah um so we've gone this far without mentioning timothy lilligren who i just okay i'll put it to you this way anthony sell it to me as a good option for the playoffs in terms of a positive contributor to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Sell it to me to start there, and then we'll go from there. Oh man, I feel like I should put a hat on. Sell the ketchup popsicle to the

man in white gloves. To be honest, I wouldn't look at it as selling it for the playoffs. I would look at it as his contract is up. He's young. He's right-handed, which they they lack he has some level of skill on the defense which again they lack and i'm not saying it's going to work but i'm generally

okay with the approach of like we're giving you every chance right now to prove it like you like there's no excuses so there you can't look and say oh well they acquired luke shen to block me this year and all that's like do you want to get paid because you have a chance to get paid this summer and we're giving you every single opportunity humanly possible to get paid and like i'm okay with that i like whereas i look at a situation you know nick robertson where he's in a roster jam and his contract is also up and i think at that point, it's like, you're less established in the league.

You're going to have to take your lumps still. I think Lilligren's at that point where it's kind of like, okay, what are we doing here with you? Are you going to do it? Are you going to not? And he's shown flashes. Just a month ago, he looked really good when Riley came out. That was a real thing that

happened so you know can he produce that I don't know he seems to go down the lineup and lack confidence and the thing I was going to ask you Justin is I actually kind of liked the power play better with him on it like Lilligrant over Riley power play one I will hear that argument I agree that it seemed to move a little i mean that's been a hobby horse of this show since day one that i guess riley at the top of it just has never been any of our favorite thing what percentage of potential improvement are we looking at to go from lilligrant to morgan from riley is it three percent better yeah i'm not saying it's i'm not saying it's uh it's gonna be this good but i mean

they tied a record for power play percentage in february right they're 50 percent in february like i'm not saying he's the difference in like you know a 23 percent gap or anything crazy but the thing i was when i was thinking about it is they really run the power play on the on the left side right like they run it off of nylander on the half wall on his off side and they basically just now it looks like they're daring teams like okay either you take away nylander shot or he's gonna rip it or if your guy steps up he passes it down low to marner who also right-handed has everything available to him for backdoor plays and whatever it is.

And as you guys know, if you have Logren up top, also as a right-handed shot, feeding Nylander as that right-handed option, that is better just handedness than Riley walking the line on the left side. If you assume you don't want your D to ever shoot it, which Riley doesn't anyway, so he's not taking one time. When he does, you're If you assume you don't want your D to ever shoot it, which Riley doesn't anyway. So, you know, he's not taking one time. When he does, you're kind of like, don't do that. I want to go back to the Lilligran thing

because what you said there about him earning it, that's fair. But to me, this team is at a different point than that where it's like this shouldn't be the situation where you're, you know, hoping this guy that hasn't really developed for however many years, now that he's not traded and he's not blocked, now is the time it's going to happen at a really important juncture

for your core that's not old, I know, but not getting any younger here. Marner's up. There's all these scenarios that we know. I just don't love the gamble on a guy that has never really been able to play at playoff time finally figuring it out and playing at playoff time that's what terrifies me before you weigh in on that i also think the team and people just hate the feel of simone ben has been integral to this team he's been a revelation and i think they hate the feeling that you're giving it to lilligren when the other guy felt like he earned it, even though it's a handedness.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, one thing I would consider, and they'll never come outright and say it, but if you kind of look at some of their moves of late, like even we talk about Bobby McMahon, I think everyone in Toronto is on this real clock about this team, right? Like there's this huge, like why didn't they take a swing at the deadline and why didn't they push all their chips in again? And like, it's, it's gotta be now. And it's gotta be, you know, winning right now. And are you really looking at everything they're doing saying like, he's a hundred percent trying to win right now. Like I think in the market, people are tired of, you know,

seeing the same guys lose all the time. But, you know, perspective-wise, Matthews is 26. Like, he turns 27 in September. I don't, like, he's got a lot of good hockey left. You know, Nylander's, like, a year older. Marner's the same age. Like, they're very much hitting the window right now when a lot of, like, stars over, over like the history of the league actually start to

win right so and then look at what are they doing they're adding like connor dewer he's 24 years old you know i understand the role and i like the player so it's not a knock on him but like that he he's very much growing into that role of being a pk specialist, you know, a checker and a guy that they can trust at the end of games. Like we're talking about Bobby McMahon. He has like 50 games in the league. Right. And they're looking at him in the top nine.

We're looking at Pontus Holmberg, who, you know, you guys go through Sheldon Keefe's quotes as much as I do. Like he talks about him all the time. Like he's talked about this young team. They have Nyes, also also young playing a prominent role like usually you don't have this many young guys in your lineup if you are like genuinely trying to win so your point is this is part of a long term that they they aren't as win now as we may think they are i i think that's true if you look at their lineup i know people are frustrated by it.

And I don't think they're punting on the season by any means. They obviously added some veterans to try to like plug gaps and like, I'm not giving them that out. Like if they played terrible in the playoffs again, like that's bad. Like, yeah, like the top guys can't do that again. But I think,

I think they're almost like, it's not like a full step back, but like, I think they are looking at it saying like, how much better, like how much different are they going to be at forward next year? Realistically, like a lot of these guys are. Not drastically. I saw your piece there and I looked at it and I was surprised to see like

that how many guys are under contract. I guess it's just the decor, but. Yeah, it's literally 10 guys. And then that's with Robertson and Dewar as RFAs. Like you could feasibly just resign them and call it a forward group if you, you know, does Easton Cowan make the team or whoever? Like, that could literally be the group. I don't think it will be. I think they'll do some things, but by and large.

And then if you break it down, like, most of those guys are young and lack playoff experience. Yeah. So, I guess to finish on Lilligren, if that's your best right-hand shot option in the prime of three of your guys' careers, that's my only issue. Because he is. It's an issue, yeah. I mean, I don't want to make this about Dubas,

but right-hand shot stuff was always a blind spot. It really was. There just never really was a great right-hand shot D-man in the whole era. And there still isn't one, I guess. Yeah. And we can finish on that. isn't one, I guess. Yeah. And we can finish on that. But to me, I'll say that it's set up for them

to try to address that. For sure. In the summer. Like, there's going to be enough cap space for them to take, like, a real significant swing at, like, one guy and, like... Oh, Brett Pesci's good in his 30s. Right?

But, like, if they wanted to do it, like, that's the kind of guy that they could they have enough money that they could drop it on like one you know whether it's brett pesci or matt roy or like they try to trade for a guy like they could 100 afford that and still have like this core around like they'll be a lot better next year with like i would like to think should you know matthew knives take a step you know guys like that are a little bit more comfortable. And, but again, like I know people don't want to hear it. What's it say for this year, Anthony trying to win.

What's it say for this year? My take this year is like the top guys better like do something to prove that they deserve more than this. Like, yeah, I don't think they deserve any more than what they've given them. Like they, like at some point those guys have to prove it. And living said that as much on. Like, at some point, those guys have to prove it. And Treleving said that as much on our show. At some point, eventually, it comes down to the guys making the most money that got a score in big games.

Yeah, they didn't lose to Florida because the depth guys let them down. They scored two goals or less in five straight games. I mean, it was seven if you extrapolate to Tampa. They pay the top half of their lineup a lot of money to score goals. If you are scoring two or less in seven straight playoff games, like, we don't need to sit here and debate about Connor Dewar. Yeah. Well, listen, we don't appreciate you coming in here and stepping on our all or nothing doomsday this year stakes that we've set up for the year.

I do feel like those are, are those like i'm not even trying to be hot take radio guy when you have those players at this age they are in their prime prime buddy it's all gonna fall on the coach they have this year they're gonna go if they don't win they're gonna go him that's exactly what's gonna happen if they don't win yeah anyway uh we do have another guest that we need to get to anth we really appreciate your time would love to have you back sometime thanks man appreciate it

happy to hop on thanks guys awesome that's Anthony Petrilli of Maple Leafs Hot Stove every Monday he has a column out on the Leafs

that I consider must read and you reference it every single day I do you know what you don't get a lot of people who really lay out

the different iterations of how a roster could look. Yep. If you move the pieces around. I love doing that sort of stuff. Go ahead. You want a quick thought before we go to break? Quick thought.

All right. You do have to take advantage of these years. Yes. You can't just say this year is, eh, maybe next year. And what he was saying there about the young, it's like, yeah, I mean, that, they shouldn't be too young either. Like, they shouldn't be adding all these young guys to a core. Like, they should be papering on guys that are similar age and have more experience.

It is funny when you zoom out, though, and you're like, Nye's a rookie, McMahon's a rookie, Holmberg, I think, technically, is probably still a rookie. Dewar doesn't have a ton of games to lead. You know, you do have a lot of guys that are fairly green still. I guess that's Domi and Bertuzzi are the guys with experience that have played well in the playoffs, and that's who you attach. Here's Brody and Labushkin and Edmondson.

They're trying to surround those guys with some vets. Coming up after the break, we're going to talk about the Philly Flyers. At least for the Flyers tonight, Charlie O'Connor of Philly Sports is going to join us, and he's an analytics specialist, watches the team in and out. Oh, is he? Oh, he knows his numbers. Oh, is that why you wanted to have him on?

Kip's not here. I got to do whatever I want. Coming up after the break, Charlie O'Connor. Everything you need to know about the Raptors and the biggest stories around the NBA. Smith & Jones. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. I am Justin Bourne here with Sammy McKee. We are going to be joined momentarily by Charlie O'Connor and talk a little bit about the Flyers. I'm excited to see this contest. No torts behind the bench for Philly. Yeah. Still in the midst of a two-game suspension for not leaving the bench. You follow

John Boy, John Boy Media. I love him, and I love his breakdowns. I mean, I don't love that he's a Yankee fan. And that part of it, I don't love. But whenever I see him foray into other sports, I get really excited, and I've seen the Torts one. I haven't watched it yet. So I'm really looking forward to it.

I mean, it is pretty self-explanatory, you know, what you learn from the video. But Torts just, like, wants to talk to the guy, and the guy's like, we're not talking. He's got a great voice, John Boy. For, like, doing just the way he says it, it's just, like, a very normal. He doesn't pretend to do anyone else's voice. It's it. Exactly. He just does it in his own voice, and Boy. For like doing just the way he says it. It's just like a very normal. He doesn't pretend to do anyone else's voice.

It's it. Exactly. He just does it in his own voice. And I love it. So the Flyers are coming off a win over the Sharks. But before that, they got beat by touchdown by Tampa. 7-0. Before that, they beat Florida.

So I don't know what to make of this team. Yeah, that's neither do I. And we have Charlie now. That's why we're going to someone who hopefully does. Charlie, thanks for joining us, man. We really appreciate your time. Yeah, sure. Good to be here.

Awesome. So maybe you can fill us in on what this Philadelphia Flyer team is compared to what they were supposed to be this season and just sort of update us on where they're at in their progress on the season here. Well, they're certainly a playoff contender. I mean, in terms of making the playoffs, it looks like, at least the way things are shaking out now, there's four teams for three spots.

You're looking at Tampa, Detroit, Philly, and the Islanders, and Detroit isn't something of a free fall. You thought that when their schedule turned, they would start to win games, but then they lose to the Sabres, and you're wondering if they're going to pull themselves out of this. So I think the Flyers are very much in position to make the playoffs, whether it's as that third seed in the Metro or if it's as a wild card. That said, you know, they did purposely make themselves weaker at the deadline. The pairing of Nick Seeler and Sean Walker

has been their most consistent pairing all year long. It's been their second pair. It's been really strong both by the eye test and by advanced metrics. Nick Seeler's hurt, and Sean Walker was traded for a first-round pick to Colorado. So where the Flyers are at right now is they're a team that certainly has banked a lot of points, certainly has a lot of good things going for them. They really adhere to what John Tortorella wants them to do system-wise. They play an attacking game. They play an aggressive game. Um, they really play for each other. However, they're now a weaker team

because number one, they traded Sean Walker. Number two, their defense is kind of injury ravaged at the moment. You know, Steelers out with injury, Jamie drives on rest of us, the line are out with injury. So you're looking at a team right now that on the back end, you have a Travis Van Aamkamp-York pairing, which is good. It's fine. Maybe not your ideal first pair, but it works. Then you have Mark Stahl with Yegor Zmul, who's a rookie. And then you have Eric Johnson, who they just traded for,

who obviously is on kind of the end of his career, with Ronnie Adder, a rookie who they just called up. So you're in a position here where I don't think the Flyers are a bad team, and they certainly believe in each other, but they've got a very exploitable back end right now. and people around that city reacted to the way that Daniel Breer has sort of tried to walk this line between still being relevant, but like you said, trading literally your top right shot defenseman at the trade deadline. It's a very interesting team that I don't think they probably expected to be here. Definitely ahead of schedule. They're well coached, like you said.

But how have people sort of reacted to the shift in mentality once they got to the deadline? Well, it's funny. I don't really think it was a shift in mentality. I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said that they came into the season, you know, not thinking they were going to be this good. Now, certainly they're not going to complain that the team's better

than they thought it was going to be. But they came into the season preaching a rebuild. Danny Breer straight up said, we're rebuilding. The organization has said it on multiple occasions. And just because the Flyers are winning more games than maybe anybody expected them to, and that they're in a playoff race, it didn't change the fact that they were going to approach the deadline as a rebuilding team. So it's less that anything changed, you know, their, their approach certainly didn't change. It just maybe was tougher to understand from the outside because you would look at their place in the standings and you'd think, why are the Flyers trading Sean Walker?

This doesn't make any sense. If you were listening to what Breer has been saying all year long and what Keith Jones has been saying all year long, it wasn't weird at all. It was just them following through with their plan and i think they deserve a lot of credit for not deviating from that plan despite the fact that the team on the ice is playing better than anybody thought they would yeah we had keith jones on earlier this year early and he was like yeah we'll basically we'll trade anybody

like in second yeah we're not great. Charlie, so how is the team then positioned for years ahead? Like, what pieces do they have now, or how many do they have that will be there when this team considers itself Stanley Cup contender again? It's a fascinating question. They definitely have quality young players. And by young players, I mean guys that are in their early 20s. Tyson forrester has really impressed this season uh both as a two-way winger and you know starting to develop a scoring touch he's always been viewed as a sniper type player even dating back to before his draft year um so he's interesting joel barabee's taking a step

forward they're happy with what they've seen from cam york so they have guys and i'm probably forgetting a few but but really, the big thing here is Matthew Medchkov. I mean, that's really the piece that when, if and when he gets here, gets to Philadelphia, he's supposed to supercharge the thing. Because they know that while they have a team that plays a very cohesive style, that plays for each other, that plays hard, they just don't have the kind of high-end players that, say, a Toronto has. The Flyers' best player right now is Travis Konechny. Really good player. Any team would love to have a Travis Konechny.

But Travis Konechny is not ideally the best player on a contender. He can be at the top of the lineup, to be sure. He's a good player. But if he's your best player, you're probably not winning a Stanley Cup. So they know they need to get better pieces. They need to get more high-end guys like Konechny

to really send this into overdrive. And Mishkov is the one obvious one because obviously high pick last year, talent through the roof. The question is, when is he going to get here? He's got two more years on his contract after this one over in Russia. We'll see how that plays out. But he's, I think, the first step.

Then it just kind of comes down to who they can add in the interim. They have two first-round picks this year, two first-round picks next year, two second-round picks in each of the next two drafts. They have young guys. They have guys like Oliver Bonk and Denver Barkley who are having big years in juniors this year. So they have pieces. The question is, number one, can they make the right picks with those pieces? Number two, can they maybe turn some of those picks, turn some of those prospects into guys who can, you know, be the star level talent that maybe they, they lack aside from connecting.

Yeah. Uh, Bonk and Barkie both play with, uh, Cowan in London. Oh boy. Yeah. Barkie is a big reason he's been on that long streak. They've enlightened it up. So I'm interested in the Michkov story here. Having a great year in the KHL, 41 points in 47 games. I believe that's like, you know, two points a game here. I don't really understand how the KHL. Translates pretty well, though, yeah. But so what's the buzz on him?

You mentioned him maybe coming over, not coming over. Like, what's the story with Michkov, Charlie? Well, the buzz on him is that you talk to the Flyers and they will tell you that we are certainly prepared to wait it out. You know, he's got two more years left on his contract after this one. When they drafted him, they drafted him with the expectation that he was going to play out the length of his contract with his KHL team and then hopefully sign a contract in the NHL and come over.

Now, could they find a way to get him out of that contract sooner? Maybe. You know, it's Russia. It's all trying to work out backroom deals and whatnot. So nobody wants to talk about it on the record. Look, would the Flyers like to get Mitch Kofe over here sooner? I'm sure they would. They also don't want to put him in a position where, you know,

he or his family's lives could be in danger or anything like that. So they're certainly going to tread lightly here. But I think you have to assume that he's going to play out his contract in the KHL. However, if his KHL team opens the door in any way or just sends out feelers of, okay, maybe we would let him out of his contract a year earlier or two years earlier or whatever, I'm sure the Flyers would jump at it, but I don't think anyone can necessarily expect that that's going to happen. It's a hope, but it can't be an expectation. So the loss of Carter Hart from a hockey standpoint has been significant. I would imagine what is the goaltending situation in Philly? Arison has played 38 times this year and been about a 900-goaltender,

which I imagine is probably what you'd consider that a positive year for him, no? I think Sam Arison has been really, really good for the Flyers. His save percentage is a little deflated because at the beginning of the year, he had a couple really, really rough goes. I think they would even acknowledge that at the start of the year, they maybe didn't play him enough. They were would even acknowledge that at the start of the year, they maybe didn't play him enough. You know, they were really riding Carter hard at the start of the year. Erson would like miss, he wouldn't play for like two and a half weeks. Then he would come in, he wouldn't be ready. So those first few games, I think he was trying to get a handle on

how to be a backup. And also the Flyers weren't really giving him a fair shot because they were putting him in, you know, less than ideal situations where he was cold and then he would get torched and then he would sit again really since I would say since like early to mid November, he's been really good. And it's not to say he hasn't had bad games. He had a real rough one against the, uh, the lightning this past weekend, but for the most part, I would say two thirds of Erison starts. And I've looked this up based on a,

you know, goal saved above expected on evolving hockey, but about two-thirds of his starts, Arison stops more shots than you would expect him to, based on the quality of the shots he's faced. So two out of every three games, you can expect Sam Arison to be not just, you know, holding down the fort, but actively helping the team win. I'm pretty high on Sam Arison, to be honest with you. Look, obviously the Carter Hart situation is bad on a number of different levels, but the Flyers have a guy in Sam Harrison who I don't know what his ultimate ceiling is, but I do think he has the upside of being a number one goalie in the NHL, a starting goalie in the NHL, and they're handed it to the Reigns,

and honestly, he's doing pretty good with them. So we'll see how the rest of the season goes. Maybe he wears down. He really is the unquestioned starter for a team chasing down a playoff berth, but so far he's more or less met every challenge. Yeah. I mean, he's six foot three, 24 years old. You know, he's not like a, the goalies come into their own around the late close to 30. So that's, that's not bad.

I got to ask you a personal question here, Charlie, about covering torts. Does torts make you not better at your job, but like, do you really have to think about what you're going to ask them when you go into these press conferences? Because it just feels like you say the wrong thing and you become like, you know, national news to him.

I just, does it make you really, really think about what you're going to ask him? I'm just fascinated by covering torts. Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, personally, if you're not going into press conference every interview without good questions, that's more or less on you.

I will say when I first started covering torts, sure, I was a little nervous. You're worried about, okay, am I going to become his punching bag? Is he just going to pick me out? But that's not really, at least in my experience, what he does. You know, yeah, he holds reporters to a standard where if you ask a dumb question, then he's going to call you out on it. Sometimes I think you can ask him perfectly good questions. And if he's just in a bad mood, he's going to shoot them down because that's just the mood that he's in. And as long as you don't take that personally,

and as long as you just look at it as not that, you know, Oh, he hates me. He's never going to answer one of my questions again. If you just look at it as, Oh, the team lost four to one and kind of loafed it for the final period. He's more angry at the team than he is at me. And he can shake it off. And I think truthfully, that's what a lot of the players have to do too, is that, that you know torts is the kind of person where he can be in your

grill screaming at you one minute and then the next day as he's all the way and he's he's all smiles and gives you a wave and it's like okay well didn't you just say you hated me yesterday and that i was a waste of space on the bench or whatever and that's that's just torts though you know torts torts this thing is like he wants he has a short memory in terms of like not holding things against players. Now that's not to say that there aren't guys that end up in his doghouse for the way that they play for the style. But if, if you're a guy who makes a dumb mistake, he's going to remeow for it. But then two days later, he's not going to hold that against you. If you go out there and try to make a play and then make a play. So it's kind of the same

thing with Coverham, where yeah, you're going to get yelled at sometimes, you're going to get some eye rolls, you're going to get some dagger stares, but if you do your job well, I think he'll respect you. Last one before we let you go, I just can't help but ask about Travis Konechny who Austin Matthews is

one of the few people who've grabbed Matthews and made Matthews be like, I should probably hate that guy. But does Konecti not have a guy like this on every team? Like he seems pretty high on the list of most, you know, most disliked guys in the league, I would say. Is he not? I mean, he likes to chirp. He likes to get in post-whistle scrum, definitely.

But that's his game. You know, he is. And I feel like it's just just as it's a uh it's an insult to call brad marchant just an agitator because he's a really really good player in addition to being an agitator i think it's an insult to say that travis connect me is just an agitator i mean this is a guy who for the past two seasons you know if you look at his 82 game pace he's basically on a 40 goal pace across two seasons he's a really good player but i think that he's a better player when he's playing with emotion.

And one of the ways that he plays with emotion is chirping at other teams and getting involved in scrums and, you know, giving some little punches, you know, along the boards and things like that. Like, that's just the way he plays. And, you know, John Tortorella said it on multiple occasions this year that, you know, when Konechny is maybe taking a bad penalty or retaliated, and Torch is like, look, yeah, that was a bad penalty, but I'm not going to stop Travis Konechny from being Travis Konechny. Because if I try to do that, I'm going to lose all the good things.

And I think that's really what it comes to with Konechny, where, yeah, he is an agitator. He does like to annoy other teams, but it's not like that's just who he is an agitator. He does like to annoy other teams, but it's not like that's just who he is. He also is a talented scorer and probably the Flyers' best all-around. Definitely their most talented offensive player, without a doubt. Well, at least you've had lots of storylines to cover

this year with Philly, so we appreciate you taking the time to fill us in today, man. You got it. Thanks, guys. That was Charlie O'Connor of Philly Sports. Beat writer there. I mean, that guy knows the team in and out. Matthew's going to go at it tonight, or what? There are two guys

that I think Matthews would fight. And he already did fight Stamko. Well, he fought him. I mean, it looked like a fight between the first fight in NHL history between 260 goal scores. It sure looked like it. Yeah.

But a one that he would actually really get into, I could see him fighting Rasmus Dallin. Yeah. Who he seems to hate. Yeah. I don't know why. The cross check, he got suspended. He just never really seemed to like him.

And Konechny is the other one. The problem. Konechny and him is they always. Oh, I hate that guy too. They connect. They have some sort of a lot. And the problem is he doesn't have, uh,

his, his father, Jared, Jared Anno to come jump it in for him tonight. So buddy, he'll be in his grill a hundred percent. Well, and the thing is like Matthews and Darlene,

he can go with Darlene because Darlene's what? Six, four, three. Darlene's big, big. Connect these five, 10, one 75. Like Matthews can't go. he can go with Darlene because Darlene's what? 6'4", 3's? Darlene's big. Connect he's 5'10", 175.

Matthews can't go with him. What he should do is the way Dustin Bufflin treated those two guys from Vegas once upon a time. To me, Connect needs just, but the thing is, you know, you can be big, you can be small. Connect, he's just gritty and tough.

You don't want to go near that. Exactly, especially as a tall and like it's like that's you don't want to go near that like he's playing those guys exactly especially as a tall guy it's like that's the one type of guy you do not want to go up against yeah it's a small guy that's frothing at the mouth that's like the worst matchup possible for him so i could see him fighting him though if there's ever going to be those are my two my two guesses for guys that he would fight it's funny that i in you know before we talked to charlie i thought philly didn't quite punt on the deadline right like they traded um they added dennis guryanov you know who i like and his he had a good rookie season he's struggled a bit since but i like him they tried to replace

sealer by getting eric johnson at least a guy with playoff experience who could help in the postseason but boy when he was going through that d, and it's Mark Stahl, Ronnie Attard, Igor Zamula, like Eric Johnson, I couldn't help but have my ears go, I'm sorry, what are the bet? 3-6-5 on the over tonight for the Leafers? There could be some goals into the net tonight, for sure. And Arison hadn't been carrying the load,

went into Tampa and gave up seven. Now he's, you know, he's played a lot more hockey than he ever has. And if I remember correctly, Matthews, the last game they played, they beat them in overtime and Matthews scored a natural hat trick to come back, right? And he shot three clean right by Arison. Is that right? Yeah, I think that's right.

And you don't remember. Okay. Well, I'm watching a Leafs show. I'm like, tell me I'm right. He has six hat tricks this year, doesn't he? Yeah, he does have six hat tricks, which is a really absurd number. And you know it was that game

that he scored a hat trick against him. And I, you know, there's going to be some goals tonight. So we'll look out for that. Hate the Flyers. The Flyers, to me, are a very, like an old school rival for the Leafs. for that hate the Flyers Flyers to me are a very like an old school rival for the

Leafs like for my youth the the playoff battles they had with them Jeremy Roenick shooting it in Tucker smoking Sammy Kapanen like there are some some battles with the Flyers and they are a sneaky big rival for me so going into that building having them kind of being back as

like a mean team is good. Again, like they're kind of getting that mentality back. So I love a Leafs Flyers matchup. Great jersey battle. Love it. I do too. The Leafs will get the Flyers today and then again sometime in the next two weeks. I think I covered this yesterday where they also play the Capitals twice. They also play

another good team twice, Carolina twice. A lot of Metro Division opponents coming up.