Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: First Road Trip in the Books

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee recap the Leafs' weekend that saw the end of a road trip in which they went 3-1-1. Has the team done enough to convince the fans that they are markedly different from last year's version? They get into Ilya Samsonov's start against the Predators, and whether or not the goaltender has lost confidence amidst a hot start for teammate Joseph Woll. Plus, they chat about the play of the defence in front of both goaltenders, the play of Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner on the road trip, and Sheldon Keefe's management of a variety of injured players. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

it's the real kipper and born show we are live on sports at 590 sports at 360 and sports net plus from 4 to 6 p.m and remember you can always get your podcast download wherever you feel you can itunes spotify and always give us a rating and review we We'd love to hear from you. And one last note, if you want to text us, always available right here, 590-590. Now, just to give you kind of a bit of a background of our last 30 seconds, most days it's, oh my God, I have no pen. And JB is always kind enough to give me one

and I am not kind enough to remember to return it. And I got a thing about pens. I don't know. But somewhere at home, I've got 60 of them. Yeah. But I just, can you, you gave me this one. Yeah. Can you put a string on it?

Do you just throw them in the trash? I don't know what I do. It's a lot like lighters. When you return home from a party and have like six lighters in your pocket, it's just he doesn't even think about it. No, not with lighters. It's pens. We weren't cigarette guys.

Yeah. Sorry. Sorry to take you back to your great nine days behind the school cafeteria. I was also supposed to tell you that someone texted me or DM me, I forget, and said it's not called iTunes. It's called Apple Podcasts. And I did not know that either. So there you go. All right.

I thought it was iTunes. So was it like iTunes like 10 years ago or something? I think so. You can download us your iPod Nano. iTunes doesn't exist. I don't think so. I think it's Apple Music, right? Yeah.

I don't know. I got no idea's Apple Music, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I got no idea. Spotify. I'm a Spotify guy too, but. All right. Good to know. Apple Podcasts is what we're looking for. Someone DM me.

Good to know. Are you happy? Oh, iTunes still exists. Man, we should move on. Okay. It's not our forte. Seriously. But it's called Apple Podcasts.

Okay. So there you go. But iTunes still exists. According to Derek, who also may be old. Besides me grabbing my pen 30 seconds before the show started, are you happy with your jersey selection? And you did butcher somewhat the cobwebs. The cobwebs were already butchered.

Yeah. So for those listening, this has grizzlies on it utah grizzlies baby and it's the most i don't even know what league that is it is the echl so this is actually so i did play for them in the echl but this jersey is from when my dad coached them in the ihl international okay okay nice back when they had uh zarly zalapsky peter nedved was there for a flash i think maybe. Maybe that was Vegas. And did you score a big goal for them? I did.

I had a triple OT winner. No. Playing for the Grizz. Yeah. Back in the day. Do you have enough strength to lift your arms up? I was telling Sam I was so far behind the play because I couldn't make it back to the bench. There was a turnover and I got a breakaway. Did a Ninja Turtle spin on my back.

Called it a day. All right. Well, we hope everybody had a good weekend. Despite a 3-2 loss to Ryan O'Reilly's Nashville Predators for the Toronto Maple Leafs. A fairly healthy road trip in which they went 3-1-1. Seven out of a possible ten points through the likes of, what, Florida, Tampa, Washington, Dallas, and picking up a point against Nashville. So we're going to get into some Kippers Clippers with Sheldon Keefe, talk about what we saw on the weekend.

But prior to that, is there a sense that they're coming home after what we think was another somewhat slow start to the season? Did you see enough off this road trip to suggest that they're in a lot better shape than, than when they left. You know, I think what makes me believe they are in better shape, at least in last year,

remember last year was four, four and two start. They went out West and they look terrible out there. They're five, two and one. And it feels like they have a lot better in them. Like it still feels like Matthews and Marner haven't quite found it. Their D are not quite

settled maybe they had some injuries still waiting for some depth scoring like some pieces you believe they have haven't been great they still have you know 11 points through eight games so yeah kip i feel pretty good about where they're at i'm not sure if they're better than last year but i like their start so far i think they're different than last year i think the fourth line to me is still a it's a work in progress a uh nice enough term to use hasn't been very good i think they're depending on their big guys a lot too much you know that's one of the minutes one of kipper's hobby horses but it really feels like through however many games they've played so far this year that's way too high to me and you go through that road. I think everybody was tired towards the end of that trip.

But didn't it look like it? Didn't it look like the guys who had been playing a ton of hockey towards the end of that thing with the Dallas end in Nashville? Yeah. I think you're right. And maybe it kind of led to the part where I thought they were just from start to finish a little bit more in a lockdown mode, less turnovers, less gambling.

In many ways... You better lock it up. You lock it up. If fatigue was a factor there, it actually helped them, in my opinion. Yeah, a little more reserve. Yeah. Mike. That's smart.

Yeah, there you go. Eric Mike was off there for you. He just said that. Oh, thanks for Derek fixing me. That's good technical work. The whole idea is not to feel like you're not jumping up on the play because you're tired it's because it's the right decision not to jump up on the play yeah no that's something that they'll forever be battling with is the desire to go go go like the Alaskan sled dogs they are okay let's

go to Sheldon Keefe for our first Kippers Clipper of the Week on his overview from what he saw Saturday night versus Nashville. I thought it was similar to Dallas. They had an excellent first period. Obviously the difference from Dallas is we had more chances to score tonight than we did in the first period, and we weren't able to build a lead. And it's tough from there. You know at the end of a long trip that fatigue is going to become a factor and then when you lose another defenseman it's that's uh enhanced even more you know the the challenges

with the fatigue but uh you know all in all uh that's an important point for us. I liked how our guys stayed with it. You know, a few posts, a few missed breakaways. You know, it's that close to be able to get another two here tonight. But I think there's a lot of good things to take away from this game and really through this trip. There's a lot of good things that we can take back home with us. Positive. Yeah. And you feel the same about things from Nashville

to the start of the season at large? Marginally better. And, you know, I don't want to take anything away from opponents because, you know, on some nights, the Leafs have proven that anybody can take two points off of you but i didn't see a lot out of the likes of a washington or a nashville saturday night like those that that point to me is is still one that the leafs lost i think that's a good way to put it like yeah that was on the table eat fatigued

and all of it. That was a winnable hockey game for the Toronto Maple Leafs Saturday night. I mean, Nashville seems like they know they're in a rebuild this year. You look at that lineup and, all right, the O'Reilly-Forsberg line's decent, but the bottom three lines on Nashville, it's Evangelista and Sissons and Foodie and Parson and Tomasino. It's not a murderer's row of elite athletes. Well, I shouldn't say elite athletes. Of great NHLers.

Yes. So. I just had to be Ryan O'Reilly. Oh, I mean, did we even do a bet for him on Friday? We probably should have. Every single time the Leafs play like a guy like that, I'm just like, why didn't I put everything on that? You knew he was scoring.

Of course. And not only to get one, but to get two. And the first one was kind of. Total muffin. He healed that big time. He was trying to raise it. Had a bit of a stench to it two. And the first one was kind of... Total muffin. He healed that big time. He was trying to raise it. Had a bit of a stench to it. And the second one's a nice tip or whatever.

But yeah, he was always going to score in that game. Yeah. Always. All right, we had an in-depth conversation to end the week on Samsonov and just his battle to get back to a place where he was last year, and that was unequivocally the number one goaltender

for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Better, right? A lot better. Yep. I thought he was in a position to hold them in. He had some good saves. Did I like O'Reilly's first wraparound? Absolutely not.

But it seems like there's the build to get him back is even bigger than I maybe even thought last week. Do you sense that at all? I do sense it, but like why? What's he had two or three starts this season? Sorry, three starts this season. Maybe that was his fourth. Whatever it was, it's not many.

You know, like a couple of their performances weren't great. It shouldn't have undercut all of his previous success that he had in Toronto. No, I agree. I agree that it does feel like a bigger build than he hasn't been that terrible. And as we were kind of going off air last week, he, you know, you talked about Luke Fox writing the article

about how he was feeling on the road or whatever. But it wasn't just Luke Fox that wrote it. Everyone. Every single beat writer had a piece on Samsonov. They had all the same quotes that were in there of him not feeling very good, him dropping the S-bomb. You know, I think it's good that players open up like that but to have it be viscerally in a season if you're a leafs employee wouldn't say you'd love that would you well they have that greg hardy right is he the performance coach like go ahead kim there are times when i

i watch the way the leafs kind of conduct themselves from a PR point of view and there's some things you go okay that makes sense and that doesn't make sense or you know sometimes you go does the left hand know what the right hand's doing I think that's a fair question and I just don't know whether or not Samsonov and maybe the coaching staff or Brandon or Brad Tree Living or the PR department got together and said, hey, before that Nashville game, why don't you come out and just tell everybody how much you've been struggling lately. Conduct a sympathy campaign or what?

I don't know whether or not that was a surprise to the Leaf PR department, whether it was a strategic thing for Samsonov to do. I doubt it. What do you think? Do you think he just went out on his own? Yeah, you know, I think he had the opportunity to answer some questions and probably answered with his heart, which he seems to do.

You know, you can debate whether that's right or wrong. I think sometimes in other markets, maybe that garners you a little bit of goodwill, and it's good, I think, for people to understand what someone's going through, but here it just creates such a firestorm, right? But at least when the weekend, as you mentioned, he made some good – was he 21 to 24?

You know, you want one of the three back. Not a terrible night or anything like that. Okay, let's pick up on Samsonov after we listen to the head coach, Sheldon Keefe, talk about his performance Saturday night. He should feel good about it. I thought he looked good. He looked solid. There was a few really good chances there

that he looked like Sammy of last season. So I thought it's a good effort from him tonight. He did his job. Give us a chance to win the game. We just didn't score enough for him. So it's obvious that you're going to need it. It's so early. That's where that piece coming out where

everybody's writing about it the way he's feeling he's on the road for a long time like i hate how early that was that's the thing to me it's like an emotional well no come to jesus moment yeah it's like we're here already it's the it's the national league you're gonna have off nights like there's other guys around you like it's the eighth game of the season. You're on a good team. To me, that's a massive worry. Yeah. I really believe in the idea of being a pro,

and sometimes things are hard, and you've got to work through those things. I support people sharing. Yeah, of course. It's a good thing, but there is an element, I think, where you can make it harder on yourself by doing that. So tomorrow night, the LA... You have his quotes, too. Sorry to interrupt.

Sorry, whose quote? We have Samsonov. Okay, let's go to him. Let's stay with it. So there's two clips here, and I want you to hear the difference in tone. Okay. So the first clip is from after the game on Saturday night.

So if we could hear that first one, Derek. Results of the last year, but we see a lot of positive things for me and uh and the team today's play two great teams yeah one team has got some two points we have one uh yeah that's it is he okay doesn't sound very no no no no, no, no, no, no. He doesn't... That's a pretty good effort, but that's a guy that's not feeling well.

About his game or... Whatever. Yeah. And we've heard him in his Samsonov heyday where he's like, hey, the sun comes up and, you know, that sort of kind of tone that you're talking about, that spring in his voice.

And really, if you kind of go back to that, when he talks about like the sun's coming up tomorrow, it's not a message for everyone else. It's almost as convincing himself. Exactly. Yeah. He's trying to convince himself exactly yeah he's trying to convince himself that the sun's coming up and that uh did you call him russian jack campbell

last year oh no i did say that about him yeah and then i was playing hockey uh thursday morning following that and the guy's like oh they're calling them that? Was it me? Am I they? So at least they've got Joseph Wall, who's off to this shot out of a cannon start for a goaltender to fall back on. I'd hate to see where the Leafs' situation would be if Wall wasn't at the place he is right now. Yeah, but maybe Sammy would feel better if Wall wasn't at the place he is right now. Yeah, but maybe Sammy would feel better if Wall wasn't at the place he's at right now. But to me, it is...

I don't... Yeah, I don't... I don't claim to know what's going on with him, but you think that's... Oh, definitely. Definitely is part of it is that Wall's playing well. This is not just about his own play. So this is about him feeling the heat of competition?

This was his, and all of a sudden you blink, and it's not. It's, you know, Sammy's one under through eight. All of a sudden he triples nine, and it's a totally different look at his front nine in a moment. You know, like it's your mindset just changes quickly man yeah i i think that i hope that's not the case because he should feel like saturday night was a legit building block far from perfect but hey like like we said last week jose Joseph Wall hasn't played 40 games ever in his career. Like, I'm right in this thing with him,

and may the best man win. But that's not what you sense out of Samsonov. Yeah. And then we have the other quote. Yeah, and this is from today when they're back in Toronto and he talked to the media again. He seems to talk to the media a lot. That's because the media is drawn to him

because he is engaging when he's on. But they put people out there, Kipper. He's happy. It's not like you just go up to somebody's store, really. Like, they provide people. You can provide anybody you want, but if it's the same old, same old, and it's nothing, the media will not run it.

It doesn't end up here. It doesn't end up here. It's thrown away, deleted. So, Derek, can we get the second samson clip from from today yeah for sure for sure i feel more my game i'm looking back better i think everything is get better we have a small details what we're working for right now it's just a special for goal this is me, it's more important everything is good and mental spot, yeah. Yeah, this was hard, but right now I know every hockey player is in this situation,

but really important how you get working for this. He sounds better today. He does. The sun came up. But one of the quotes that I read today on starting Joseph Wall is that it gives, paraphrasing Sheldon Keefe, it gives the Leafs and the coaching staff more time to build up Sammy. Yeah. Right?

We have that clip if you want to hear it. Yeah, I'd love to. It's Keefe clip number seven, Derek. Wall will play tomorrow, but I do think it's a good chance for him to get some momentum here in terms of getting back and feeling better about himself and building off of the work that he

had done. I think he would agree as we all would that Joseph Wall did a terrific job for us on that trip and we want to get him back in. But for me, it's a long season. We know we're going to need both guys, and we've got Wall in a good place, and we want to keep building Sammy up

and taking advantage of him every day. Certainly for him being back home, especially being still somewhat of a new father, I'm sure he feels much better being here at home and tough being away on all of us for as long as we were, but certainly nice to meet him. Yeah, and it's the building Sammy up, right? God, I wish one coach would say,

hey, listen, we're going to take your time with Kipper. We're going to build him up, right? It's like, can we do the carrot and not the stick one day? It's my, could we do the carrot and not the stick one day? That's my whole career. In a perfect world, it is what Sheldon envisions. 75 games later, one of them is established as a starter for game one in the playoffs, and they're both strong enough to feel like you could,

they can both carry the load. But it is set up where if, if Sammy's not there for them mentally, physically, emotionally, and Wall's not quite ready, by March you could be looking for a new goalie. Do you want me to derail the conversation here yeah my boy sammy uh upstairs has a plan i do sorrows yeah uc sorrows is a ufa after this year nashville is not going to make the playoffs and it's going to be rebuilding he makes five

mil 5.7 or five this year and next so So they'll retain at the deadline. You're looking at a first and and for rental but you can fix it. And actually cheaper than Sammy if you retain 50%. And they drafted

that Askarov kid I think in the top 10. Yeah, they have a guy coming. Who's playing plays for Milwaukee is their farm team I think now. He's playing pretty well.

You can see them being like Saros is what? 28 and 5'11". You can see them being like we'll go with Askarov I think, now. He's playing pretty well. You can see them being like, Saros is, what, 28 and 5'11"? You can see them being like, we'll go with Askarov. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who wants this guy? We've talked about Saros,

and he was really good against Saturday. He's unbelievable. He's their best. Like, other than Yossi, to me, he's their best player. He kept them in that entire game. Every game I watched of them. He just comes out so far.

His challenge, he's so far out of the net. Like, you know, it's effective, obviously. He's a great skater. Yeah, and his games, the team in front of him isn't good enough where he'll ever get into a conversation with... Vassie and crew? Yeah, Vasilevsky. Shosturkin.

Maybe he should be thought of as Sorokin. I think he's been a Vesna finalist. And Sammy, no problem giving up your first and whatever you have left in this very bare cupboard and then giving him $8.5 million, $9 million, just like... Well, I don't think you necessarily worry about what you're paying him

because you have him under contract this year. You have him under contract next year. Oh, he makes that next year as well. Yeah, he's got this year and next year left

on his contract. Oh, I thought he was done. That's a lot more expensive. I thought he was done. Yeah, it's more expensive. But also... No, that's fair. Not sure...

He was a finalist in 2021-2022 for the Vesna. Not sure you want to spend that first because McKee also, with my permission, spent a first on Zdorov today for the Leafs at the deadline. I did do that too. UFA, the end of this year, the Flames peter out. They're definitely going to trade that guy. Six foot seven, scored a bunch of goals last year.'re definitely going to trade that guy. Six foot seven.

Scored a bunch of goals last year. He's just got a mean face. Yeah, his face is mean. He's got a mean face. We've been trading guys. In the national hour, we'll get into a Calgary conversation that we'll lend towards probably him and a few others. Oh, yeah? few others yeah uh but yeah there's uh it's clear with the depleted blue line with mccabe and and

lilligren even even when they're healthy it's still not good enough no no bueno i mean it's fine right now but it's not good enough to doesn't seem like a stanley cup decor okay let's go to sheldon to talk about managing the injuries when he lost Lilligren for the third period. Yeah, I mean, obviously, Mike Van Ryn's taken on most of that. But it's a challenge in one way for sure. You've got to manage guys' minutes. You're constantly having to change the pairs up. Yet it also becomes somewhat easy.

It's just kind of next man up, and you just go, and you don't overthink it. Obviously, Lagasin being in tonight was an additional challenge to losing a defenseman because he's still kind of getting up to speed and we weren't using him a lot before that. But I thought he did an

admirable job stepping in when we needed him to play big minutes at important times. Any William Lagasin takes today, boys? No. No. He wears number 85. I'm completely unprepared to give.

I mean, he was fine. Did he play nine? He did play 10. I didn't see him do anything bad or good, so I have no comment for now. With holding judgment. Mark Giordano, they're back to asking him to over 20 do really incredible things at age 40 joins tim horton and alan stanley is the only 40 year old defenseman in maple leaf's history to score a goal what a play by camp by the way to slip that over in the back door i think

that was on purpose and i like that play a play by klingberg at the top where he did that walk the line thing that he does and he stopped and came back this way he sent somebody spin into the ice and he gets it towards the net do you want to hear an insane klingberg stat yes at five on five this this year so far for the leafs eight games no goals sure only four shots on goal yeah which is behind lilligrain whatever whatever. And I meant no goals against. Oh, okay. Is that right? Yeah.

Oh, I didn't know that. I don't know. I'm asking you. Oh, I have no idea on that. No idea? I don't know off the top of my head. I'm asking you. I don't know.

That's what I wouldn't believe. Offensively, Kip, he has 23 shot attempts. He's only gotten four through to the net. Yeah. Jonas Eagle had that in his piece today. Four through to the net, 23 shots, eight games. He's piece today. Four through the net and 23 shots. Eight games. He's behind Lilligren, Riley, Brody, Giordano. This guy is supposed to be this, you know, bomber.

Cannot get a puck through to the goaltender. I would say the fact that he is minus two in the season, he's been on the Irish football team. He's seen a couple go in behind. Yes, it is. Something I wouldn't believe. Yeah. And Morgan. Morgan seems to have the legs

that's uh awesome we saw it throughout the playoffs yeah looks like that guy i mean really skating well i think he's playing 26 minutes hold your breath moment he gets hit in the hand in uh in the second period i believe it was their first period and he's shaking it goes off didn't like that but yeah he's been unbelievable. Yeah, he's been over 24 minutes a game so far for them, which is way more, and more D zone starts than O zone starts for, I think, the first time in his career or close to. So they're using him very differently against top lines

and doing very well. The penalty kill, a little less Matthews and Marner, more Kampf and Marner, which we suggested last week. But still give up a couple of power play goals Matthews and Marner more, Kampf and Marner, which we suggested last week. Yeah. But still give up a couple of power play goals and too much turnover, too many new faces you're trying to plug in. We saw Matthew Nyes out there.

What is going on with the PK? They don't have PKers. Matthews now needing to get Matthews involved in it. It just feels like... What is going on with the PK? Was this just... They don't have PKers. They don't have them. Matthews now needing to get Matthews involved in it? Yeah, well, it's not needing to get Matthews involved so much as needing someone, and he's one of their good players. Like, I don't know, you know, useful or useless on this, but he's tied for the NHL lead in shot attempts on the PK.

He's got eight shots or something like that on the penalty kill this year, which, you know. Austin. Austin is, yeah. So it's going that way sometimes, but. Well, kind of lends to, like, my thoughts on just this different philosophy on penalty kill maybe in the last year or two years

where it's just not good enough to ice the puck and then get off and worry about the next 30 seconds or 40 seconds to kill a penalty. We actually have to feel now that we're a threat to go out and score. You know what phrase makes you want to jump off a bridge? People say power kill. It gives me the shivers. Like when did this – we feel like we need to be a threat. Listen, Austin's out out there he wants to penalty

kill probably he likes the more minutes like any other player would that guy's not thinking about killing a penalty he's thinking about scoring a goal yeah but i don't hate that i don't hate the idea that you have some guy that you know if you can create a handful of shorties over the course of the season even if you're not perfect in your D zone, it's going to balance out or better. I don't think it's going to balance out. Yeah, I mean, that remains to be seen. But I think it will.

He's a good player. Good anticipation. Block shots. I hate it. It's three on three. I know you did. Yeah. Actually, I've been dragging this conversation.

Yeah, no. Quickly before we go to that. Yeah. It just feels like it's a total shift in philosophy this year with the guys they're using from what it was last year. Like last year, it was all the grunts, the defensive grunts that they had in the bottom six. And this year, it's all their offensive guys.

But they don't have grunts. Well, that's what I mean. Domi's not going to do it. Willie's out there killing penalties. Matthew's out there killing penalties. Nize, Gregor. Gregor didn't kill in San Jose. Nize isn't killed in the NHL.

It's a completely different philosophy. But it's not because they don't have a choice. Well, yeah, but it's still different. It's different from the GM perspective, but the coach is like. It's different from what it looked like last year. I don't think it was very good last year anyways. I think it was like, what, 10th or 11th last year? 78%.

And what's it now? 18th, 17th? 74%. Yeah, it hasn't been good. So I think it's just a big change for them to go from having it be now guys are trying to score. Hey, you know what happens when you put guys who like to score on the ice in every situation?

They like to go that way. They want to go score the goals. And we saw that. But, like, who is the guy, right? It's like, hey, Reeves isn't going to be the guy. You know, Camp's already there. Yarncork's already there. You're looking at the bottom six.

They're trying to make Gregor do it. Domi's not going to do it. Just rack your brain. It's like, there's already there. Yarn Cork's already there. You're looking at the bottom six. They're trying to make Gregor do it. Domi's not going to do it. Just rack your brain. It's like, there's got to be someone. There's not. It's camping. Just kill it. It's very successful.

The theory you're pushing here is just shoot it down the ice. Just, yeah. Off the glass and out, baby. But there's a push. Yeah. There's a push yeah there's a push um and while again three one and one looks pretty good it didn't wasn't a good feeling for austin or or marner off this road trip i think austin went three out of five pointless yeah and then, not a penalty kill situation, but three on three where he's out there for well over a minute,

and yet he wants to be the hero. And he's going to chip it off the boards and go race down and be the hero. And this was full-fledged cookie monster moment for Austin. Yeah. I mean, or is it, you know, trying to score so your team can win either way to look at it. I will say this and Sam, I know you thought he was, I thought the first one where he tries to chip it up the boards is

completely acceptable, but he loses the battle and he tries to do it again. And then it goes down the other way. And I like, he's this, it always three on three. So maybe it's just the way it looks. And I know you can't like dive out at guys.

Cause you're going to get exposed, but just bend your knees, like bend your knees. My three on three. Is that too much to ask? I don't typically. Yeah, no,

it's fair in the defensive zone. It's so bad. But the play that everyone has fixated on, which I used to chip it by, and it actually hits one of their players whose legs are dangling over the boards, probably for Matthews who had been out there for a week and a half.

It's not the bad play to me. I actually don't hate that play. I hate the play before that when a Nashville player has it on the boards, his teammate has him covered and Matthews goes to attack him. Enforces a two-on-one. He pressures the puck carrier

to, he's the second guy being drawn to a guy off the bench who sneaks in behind. And it's like, that's just bad awareness to me. Like, that's not... But you're tired, and the oxygen's not getting to your brain. Everybody's telling you that you're this stud that could play forever,

and you can be out there as long as you want. And no, we had this conversation last week where I'm like, these are the small habits that come back and haunt you in April. But you know what, Kip? This to me is a pattern that has been ingrained in him and Mitch from the start of Sheldon's tenure where they are infallible.

Like, they will not, he will not be punished for that. Not even a mention, though. No. Not even, like, even even, like, and we're guilty of this and TSN. It's just, it's a constant buildup for 34. It's almost as if he's constructive criticism proof. He can't even. Not on this show.

Can't call him. Nobody calls out 34. Well, you do. Regularly. Which is fine, Kip. It's fine. I get your point. Like, why can't we say that a guy is imperfect?

Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, that overtime was particularly ugly. But my point I was making is that nothing that they have done, I will say the whole core four, if you want, has ever been, now you're going to sit one out, now you're going to play in the third line, now you're going to whatever.

It's just we need you again the next night. So they kind of have free reign to try and do those things. And stop. I know this is my weekly. Stop putting camp out there to start. No, see, that's a bad take. No, it is a bad take. Oh, yeah, great. He lost a draw. Now stop putting camp out there to start no see that's a bad take no it's a bad take oh yeah great he lost a draw now he's stuck out there the guy who's not a offensive guy stuck out there for two minutes but that's the idea is that it's such a possession game that

if you lose the draw yeah camp is out there defending you're not wasting Matthews you're not wasting his energy chasing guys around camp defends better than Matthews does you get it back Matthews goes on start Matthews and win the draw yeah well if they if defends better than Matthews does. You get it back, Matthews goes on the ice. Or start Matthews and win the draw. Yeah. Well, if they win the draw, Matthews hops on the ice in four seconds. They do a little regroup and you have it anyway. I'm so sick of it. Just, I'll tell you what I'm sick of,

and this is beyond a Leaf conversation right now, just the three-on-three. I've never, like, it's horrible to watch. Skate. Right? This, to your point, winning or losing a draw and then watching another team possess the puck for two and a half, three minutes

while you circle and circle and circle. I mean, it's the furthest thing to NHL hockey I've ever seen in my life. And you know what, Kip? The long shifts that guys want to take are part of the reason. They're all conserving their energy for when they get it back. How about we agree that we're doing

30 to 40 seconds and try to get the puck back defensively? How about while you're gapped up off a guy, maybe apply some pressure and get in there and if you don't get it let's change maybe we need the house league buzzer to just go and all the little kids come off and all the little kids come on i'd rather see watching it all weekend i would rather see that in the nhl than what I'm watching now. There is like three possessions per overtime right now. It is vile.

What about... How about some defensive pressure? Or if it's already not hockey, hear me out on this. Just no rules. No offside. No icing. Don't hate it. Fine.

Whatever. Oh, my God. You guys are just killing me right now. I'm leaving. Buddy, well, if it's not hockey anyway, because it's not hockey. And I agree. And I don't hate three on three as much as you guys. It is hockey, though. No, it's not. I agree with Kipper. It's not, if it's not hockey anyway, because it's not hockey. And I agree, and I don't hate three-on-three as much as you guys. It is hockey, though.

No, it's not. I agree with Kipper. It's not hockey. No, it's not NHL hockey. Yeah. You know what doesn't happen in NHL hockey? It is. A guy leaving the defensive zone with the puck.

It's a different version. Yeah, it is. It's not like a power play is different than five-on-five. It's just a different part of the game. It's not hockey. But it's such a cry for, I'm sorry our product wasn't good enough for you for 60 minutes, but here, here's a bonus.

No, it's like, can we end this? Can we leave with a result? So what's your... Okay, flip a coin. How about that? I was going to ask you, your ideal scenario, Kipper, what is it?

What would you rather have happen? Fist fights. I think everyone... Punching contest. Punching contest. Yeah, I'd... ideal scenario, Kipper, what is it? What would you rather have happen? Fist fights. Punching contests. Punching contests. Yeah, I'd... Longest drive? I think the first secret is to kind of reconstruct the point system.

Yes, 100% agree. Let's start there. If you have these guys for two and a half hours engaged in a battle for two points, why are you giving one up so easy in this stupid gimmicky three-on-three? And why are you giving three other nights? It makes no sense to me.

Incentivize teams to win in regulation so they're not both killing the clock with two minutes left like Toronto and Nashville did. Everyone's like, let's just get our point and then we'll play for the extra one. So three for a regulation win. Yes. Yes. Two and one for an OT win. Two for an OT win.

Yeah. One for a shootout win. One for an OT loss. No, you don't get any points if it goes to OT. No, no, no. You have to. You have to get three points out for every game. It's the only way it's fair.

So you do two and one. Either way you win it or lose it. Zero if you lose in regulation. I would like zero if you lose in OTA, too. Yeah, I would like to find a way to not reward you for losing. If you want to do that, then go three and zero again. But you can't go two and zero and start making it worth half a win or two-thirds of a win.

Math. We're getting some suggestions here. There's some armchair commissioners on the text line. But somebody said make it lacrosse style with a 45 second shot clock. I actually don't. I will hear after watching baseball, I'll hear a shot clock. Kipper? 24 seconds. I'm so desperate to get rid of what I've

watched. I'm thinking about it. But then if it goes to overtime and we still have to go to overtime in our system with the extra points, do you want it to be four on four? Do you want it to be five on five for ten? What Do you want it to be four on four? Do you want it to be five on five for 10? What do you want it to be?

Three on three is great. Four on four was whatever. They went down to four on four, and they went to three on three. I think three on three is probably just here to stay, but they have to make it so that it's hockey again. It's just not hockey. Guys leaving the defensive zone with the puck.

Make hockey hockey again? It's like I'm watching basketball. That's what it is. I agree. It's like I'm not watching the puck. Make hockey hockey again? It's like I'm watching basketball. That's what it is. I agree. It's like I'm not watching the NBA. Am I? I had the same thought where it's just like, okay, you know, like just dragging out a possession to get towards the end of a shot clock that never comes here.

I mean, there's tons. Like once you cross the red line, you can't go back. Also good. Yeah, there's lots of good ones on this. But the point is it's getting a little. Court is. Yeah. I agree. It's getting a little tough to watch at the possession stuff okay let's kind of circle back because we only got a i think a we got a couple minutes a little

bit couple minutes we're gonna break um just to kind of play off originally where we started this whole thing and and matthews and marner like are we a lot closer to breaking them up than we were a little while ago? How about the idea of giving someone Willie to make them better? You know, like, that's never what it's been. I sure would like to see Marner, sorry, Nylander with Matthews right now, this version of Nylander.

You know what I spent some time on this morning is how could Willie and Mitch play together? Like who could center them? Or could Willie or Mitch play center? I would love to see them right now. See, I'm not completely sold on Willie and Austin. Well, we've seen it. Because.

We've seen it a lot. We know what it looks like. Yeah. And I think. Two shooters. Yeah. Two shooters. And now more

so a shooter like willie he wants his money he's he's dialed in he knows what's at stake millions of dollars this guy has got more a shooter mentality than we have ever seen in his career but the play is going to be in the offensive zone of those two on the ice you can be sure of that yeah pucks are going to come it may not be tic-tac-toe, but the pucks are going to be there. The question is, will they still be there when the puck's in your zone? I can tell you if you want the answer. Probably not. But they're going to outscore. They would be very good right now.

There's no doubt about that. Was it so simple to say Bertuzzi's just not a fit for them, and now is it less on Bertuzzi and more on Matthews and Marner finding whatever clicked for them? Yeah. You know, you hate to almost give them the out of saying, it's the line made or switch it up or whatever. Those are two really good players that you would expect to find it at some point.

Bertuzzi, a little hurt while adjusting to a new system. Does he look better to you? Do you think he's coming around? I think he looks more engaged to me. He almost tipped another one in. He seems to be around the front of the net a bit. If there's another positive coming off this road trip, it's better Bertuzzi and better Max Domi.

Yeah. For sure. That, to me, is a better sign for the left side in general. Yeah. And Nyes, you got to, again, be careful. Don't want to, we assume at some point he's going to get a look with Austin and Mitch. Yeah. But I think in a perfect world, you would like that in the new year.

Right. As you build towards getting ready for the playoffs. So what do you, do you want to break them up, Kip? I think it's a big challenge tomorrow night against L.A., a big team with arguably the best center ice between now, what do they have? Kopitar. They've got Luke Dubois and they got. Yeah.

Kopitar, Dubois, Deneau. Deneau. Right. Really good. Matthews is like, it's Halloween. It's like. Deneau coming. Deneau coming.

Oh my God. It's Deneau. Like. Not again. Pretty good challenge for Austin and Mitch and mitch and willie and tavares yeah so you're not i don't want to change before changing here you're not changing anything going into la tomorrow night but that's to me that's that's got uh it's got a matthewsMarner big night written all over it, if any. Yeah, they have Kings on Tuesday, Bruins on Thursday. Which I believe is yours.

Buffalo Sabres on you. You guys were on TV on that night. Kipper and I, Leafs regional game. We will have the... Regular season debut. Leafers and the Bruins. That'll be fun. Really?

Looking forward to that. I don't think I have it on my calendar. Hey, Sabres on Hockey Denton Canada this week on my calendar hey sabers on hockey night in canada this week then they get tampa bay on monday night like we got some leafs well games on monday so la boston for our show though yeah la boston yeah that's a big week yeah i don't think you want to mess the lines i actually well you may want to no no no no we're not suggesting that they make any changes uh coming off this road trip. I do think a lot of this season is like by game 41,

can Matthew Nyes prove himself the best left winger on this team? We all like him on this show, but he still has some work to do, right? Like he's not there yet. Bertuzzi's been through some battles, has some more experience. Yeah. Just the whole thought of. Well has some more experience. Yeah. Just the whole thought of... Oh, he's pushing. Oh, he's pushing.

The whole thought of the perception that the Leafs are contending for a Stanley Cup, and you're asking if a college kid this time last year can come in and be the guy, is really not good. He's not Justin Bourne out of college. He's a Hobie Baker. Did he win the Hobie? He's a second- whole round pick he's got some pedigree again yeah but no we can't we can't say that you're not you're not understanding that he's he's learning how to be a pro for the first time it's his 82 games it's not college sammy but we also talk about how like the least have had no

cheap talent come up and then we can't be like the Leafs have had no cheap talent come up and then we can't be like when they have a guy that cheap talent comes up here and be like ah it's too much for him we can't have it both ways yeah yeah i don't know i just it is going to be one of the things where like their left side is not going to be as good as the rest of the team it's paid for 2z 5.5 million and uh he'll be better but by then if he better be made 2.5 million he'd still be bertuzzi he's the same guy yeah you know like he's not a different player if he makes less bertuzzi matthews dolmy but the but the uh but what you're paying for is different yeah you may have made a poor value deal there you think but i mean everybody was so excited over

well watching him start to tip pucks and beer on the blue paint and maybe get healthier i can see him being what we kind of thought he might be a 50 point i'm not giving up 25 goal scrappy it's there still not giving up is that worth five and a half four point seven one you know what i'm not giving up on that one but i'm not giving up on him still on Still on a team with this type of offense between Tavares and Nylander and Matthews and Marner. Like, come on, this guy should be scoring 25 with his eyes closed. That is an expectation for sure.

Yeah. What's he at, two now? Yeah, he's got two. Two through eight? Yeah, and he tipped one in in front of the net. 21 goal pace? Yep. All right, we should go.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and then Sammy will entertain us by changing a jersey. No. No? No. Well, they're sticking around. They're expecting something out of you, Sammy. Okay, sounds good.

More real Kipper and Bourne after the break. Say your sins enough. Call tender. A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. Still plenty to get into on the Real Kipper and Bourne show, including

next hour on our national telecast. Eric Francis will join us coming off the outdoor game in which the Oilers ended a four-game losing streak with a 5-2 win over the Calgary Flames. So we'll get into that with Eric. Also talk net guards. Of course, a horrific tragedy on the weekend with the loss of life to Adam Johnson.

So we'll have an in-depth conversation on that. In the meantime, one thing probably that kind of stood out for us a little bit was too many men on the ice. Sammy? I had a question for you. Do you remember watching hockey and seeing a head coach's ears, ear getting bent so much by an assistant coach as Guy Boucher? Every time they go to the bench, he's all over Keefe, and Keefe's all over him.

He's leaning on Guy Boucher. Are you surprised by how much he's going to him? You know what? I don't think that I noticed that, compared to do you notice that Kip uh yeah but it it seems to be a normal thing for me yeah really yeah I don't know it's like every time there's it they just flash over to him and he's just like uh bond villain in his ear like saying something to him I don't I don't uh I don't think I know Guy Boucher very well, but everything that I've gathered, he's very animated. He can use props in meetings at times.

Like what? Like, you know, everybody's got to pull on the same rope. Well, there's a rope in the dressing room, you know? I got to tell you, as a player player i hate that stuff oh listen you're not the only one that can roll your eyes at a few coaches on a little cringy yeah you really think that's gonna help we're all gonna pull on this now but he's he's that type of guy so he's he's very passionate, so he's very passionate. He's very emotional. And for him just to stand there and not give any of his, you know,

point of view or input doesn't seem like a Guy Boucher thing. I think it's just a normal act on his part to stay very much engaged in the game. But like on other coaches? Sheldon uses his assistants a lot, typically. I don't think Sheldon's ever worked with him before, so this is – I'm not trying to draw up a narrative here. I just noticed. I noticed it a lot.

I noticed it a lot with him, that he's just really all over him. Listen, behind the scenes, like, you know, after three weeks or four weeks, Sheldon could pull him over and say, hey, buddy. Take it easy. All right i'm good we we you know everything's fine so they've got to feel it out as well it's funny too because like having been in those rooms with sheldon like after if you run the power play or you run the penalty kill and it's good or bad oh you're hearing about it and yeah and it's awkward and it's like he you're held directly responsible for the goalie coach in our favorite show of all time the amazon thing what was that called i was tipped it was

deflected we get a save on a tip yeah yeah can you get to save one of those so does it appear that we're seeing too many men on the ice a lot more lately maybe just or no teams yeah i don't know is there a stat that you can there is i. I actually looked it up. Yeah. Okay. But the Leafs suffered. The Oilers took three in one game recently. Yeah. The game before last. Which I've never heard of in my life. No.

The Leafs two Saturday night? Two in the game. All right. Let's go to Sheldon Keefe quickly on his explanation. Clip four. Derek Brandeo. I'm'm gonna pretend that it did um you know it's just uh you know one guy coming off and two guys going on so you know that stuff does tend to happen when fatigue is a factor and hasn't been an issue for us in any other game so we'll chalk it up to that yeah the question was

did fatigue play a factor in the too many men he said i'm gonna pretend it did well i they cut to sheldon as they do in those sort of moments and i saw him look over the side of the bench he goes what happened oh yeah you know that's a bad look as a coach but it's also a fair thing when you've called the line out you guys have your changes like you know how did we do that what happened i if i'm a general manager a president of an owner and i've got too many men on the ice and i know if someone screwed up they screwed up but the accountability has to be the head coach but that's your bench but i hate this take i hear this all the time it's always the coach it is it is always the coach it's not always the coach that's a ridiculous thing to say you scare the crap out of them to not jump before they know.

But you know how it is, Kip. I don't know who your center would have been at the time, but they call your center. You got your guy. You're looking for the left winger. You wait for the left winger. If you get it wrong and jump when it's someone else's guy, you're the idiot, not the coach.

Yes. But the coach is the ultimate idiot. He needs to control that stuff. It's his bench. You are responsible for it. In all honesty. It's fine if you want to have him wear it on the season. How hard can it be?

Your left winger is out there. That's your man. It isn't hard. When he comes off, you jump on. Where is the confusion? Have you been in a hockey dressing room? There's some dumb people yes there are there are scholars it's not all ivy leaguers let me tell you i'm telling you that

that one just can sap the life out of a bench well you had the story about was it gartner and hartman no yeah yeah no no no the best best one was Kovalev with the longest shifts ever and Keenan going you want a long shift? You stay out there. And he stayed out there for the next what? Nine minutes. And thinking he's being rewarded. And it's like, no, he's trying to make a point here, Alex.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it's like when you get caught smoking, it's like smoke everyone in the pack. And Kovalev's like, oh yeah, maybe. I'll have one in the shower. Yeah, but those are but there are guys too who mess that up, right? When you're like, okay, I'm the left winger waiting for my left winger. The guy takes an extra

long one and now it's like, is the next left winger going to go? Because his line's about to go, you know, some point. Yeah, I'm jumping on no matter what's left. I'm eating the rind of that left. Okay, whatever's left. I'm eating the rind of that watermelon. I don't care what they eat.

Until the coach grabs me and calls up a new line, that's our line. Okay, we're out of here on the Leaf Edition. Tune in to the national show, Eric Francis. We talk outdoor game, plus a whole lot more on Real Kipper and Bourne.