Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: GM Search Urgency

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee look back on the Toronto Maple Leafs' high-scoring overtime loss to the Los Angeles Kings on Saturday. They discuss Scott Laughton's revenge game, his back-and-forth with Matthew Knies, and whether he'd return to the Leafs in the offseason. Then, they weigh in on the urgency in the Leafs' GM search after the Islanders jumped the line for Pete DeBoer, and the fit of rumoured candidates, including Sunny Mehta and Chris Pronger. Later, Sportsnet's Luke Fox joins the show (31:20) to share his thoughts on Craig Berube's anti-tanking philosophy in the final stretch, why the Leafs should go after Laughton in the offseason, John Tavares' elevated play with Auston Matthews out of the lineup, and team goals with five games remaining. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Brand new week on the real Kippron-Born show. We are live on Sportsnet 360, 590, the fan in Toronto. Streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. Can't catch us live. Give us a download, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, always available. Nickyprio's Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, Jake the Snake Shilts, Derek Brandeil, April 6th, guys. April 6th. I know.

Already. Yeah. And just five. games left for the Toronto Maple Leafs? Is that right? Yeah. We're at the point in the season where guests, our upcoming guests might be astronauts and poker players. Those are potential guests. I don't even, I'm not even sure because our trusted Eastern Conference playoff race. Does it include the Leafs? No. Does it? They have fallen off the playoff race board. They're gone. They're gone. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. But-bye. But they're still playing.

Yeah, they're not the only Toronto team out of a play. off race? Oh, no. Is that your J's? No, I'm joking. Joking, listen. You're never going to go into Chicago against the Pope's team and get a win on Easter weekend.

There's just simply no chance that was going to happen, boys. I just, they've got the flu. Everybody's hurt now. Kirk's hurt. Borgers apparently hurt. Kirk being hurt is devastating for me personally, the foremost Kirk fan. There's season from hell potential.

Anyways. I'm starting to see names I've never heard of before. Yeah, it's like you're all excited about the Blue Jay's pitching death, and some guy named Voth is pitching. Voss is the first or last? His last name of Voss made. He got B or paid today. I don't know.

All right. All right. In the meantime, did you guys, not that we talk or, but I did hear someone say maybe the most entertaining game of the season for the Leafs? Was that you guys? Things happened. Depends what you think entertaining. Like a dog's breakfast between two teams that,

look exactly the same. Like, I mean, the Western Conference Leafs, a.k.a. the Kings playing against the Toronto Maple Leafs. Seven, six loss in overtime, where the L.A. Kings, if I'm not mistaken, entered their 31st...

Record. 31st overtime game. Still stuck on 19 regulation wins and currently tied for the final playoff spot. 19 wins in 76 tries. That's just... awful hockey.

Atrocious. Pudrid. But it was I honestly had bunk said it on our post game. I'll say it here. It looked like the leaves playing themselves. They were the most leafy game ever.

They were up to 3-1. And I tweeted something sarcastic about how it both hurts their draft pick and the Lawton pick. Then they blew it. Blew it. Down six, four, a few minutes, ten minutes to go on the third

and I was like, reverse jigs that into existence. And they came back. I even high. hypothesized that they look so bad coming out of the third period break that Keith that Keith Pelly put in the call to chief and was like boys you got to stop looking so good and then they came back again your boy goes down in the fourth bricktop okay I know this is leaf hour edition but like what is going on in the league now what I mean like all all these

teams that are supposed to be fighting for a playoff spot stink I mean HL right now. Name me one that isn't. Columbus, where do they go? Detroit, where do they go? This year, though, it's kind of been the year of like four good teams, which is the three in the central, and then I'm letting you at home pick another one.

And then everyone else is okay. Everyone from 5th to 25th is the same. I opened up the standings today and was like, oh, the Flyers. Yeah. And the Metro now. What is happening in this conference, this league? It's like who's healthy, who fired a coach and got a hot streak, which goalie played well, but they're all kind of the same.

The Leafs included. Everett's talking about what Macklin-Cellibrini should win the heart trophy if the Sharks get in playoffs, and they're going to finish 23rd. Okay, so this is a relevant conversation to what you just mentioned, the coach getting fired, and it was a thought I had. You're talking about all those teams at the bottom of the Eastern Conference that are, oh, sort of the bottom of the playoffs, battling for the last playoff spot,

and you mentioned Pete DeBoer. Pete DeBoer today gets hired by the New York Islanders. If we go back in time to December, and I may have asked this show on the show before, but I'm going to ask it again, if when they fired Marks of Art, and instead of firing marks of art, they fired Craig Barubei

and put Peter DeBoer in place on that day are the least one of those teams battling for the final playoff spot. Yes. Because I think yes. Yeah, I think it's, a legit question for sure. I, um,

do you think he would have done it? I just feel like it was never in the equation. Never. Ever. Okay. They, he's still here. I know.

Right? He's still here. I know. And could have easily been done with Brad Tree looking, but Craig's got two years left on his deal. They could probably, they might owe him between six and seven million. It's not an easy to,

just to send that guy home and pay him that money. Well, you're talking about in December or now? Right? Even today. Even today. Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, yes, it is.

Yes, it is. We're watching the New York Islanders. They didn't know Patrick won nothing. I don't know what he was making, but. I think it had a big part of why he's still here is because he's got two years left on his deal. And right now, it's just, made it made no sense for them to do it then and it makes no sense to do it with eight or ten

games like they did Brad Tree Living. And Ruby's not in a position to go up to them and say, hey, if you're, if you're not, he can't do what Brad did. And say if you're going to do it, just do it now. Just rip the band-aid off now. Craig's not doing that. Well, no, because he doesn't know the new guy may want him. There may be another life for him yet.

But I just can't believe that Imagine we're sitting here at that same point of the season And I told you that Patrick Waugh Would no longer be employed by the end of the season But Craig Broube would You would never have Exactly you would never have believed me It's just it's an up and down

What do you think happened? With Waugh? Yeah Well I mean they really looked bad for a while Like really bad Okay but they they woke up In a playoff spot that day well semantics I guess whether they're in or out by half a point okay they were in they were in

well they had lost four in a row okay and they had had a run four in a row play I know but but they they went into this season where Darsh had not hired Patrick Waugh and we knew that last year that Lamarillo and Waugh apparently had had some issues Wawa had talked about the roster not being what he needed it to be so I think they went into the year with tension and with low expectations things went well for a while but I think kind of that eventually Darsh would have wanted to hire his guy. And when things went off the rail, they eventually talked themselves into being in a playoff spot.

They were adding pieces to stay in. And as the bottom came out, they wanted to do what they wanted to do in the first place. So yeah, I just, I really, really like Pete DeBore. And, you know, every time I hear him talk, every time, like, I mean, he's got his coaching record, I mean, speaks for itself in terms of what he can. And if you're doing a quote unquote retool here

where you're trying to be good at. again. Is he not the perfect guy for a two year, three year slow burn? And it's like you've waited too long. He's gone. He's off the market. Like, I love Pete DeBoer. I would love Pete DeBoer to be the coach of the least.

Anyways. Top of the hour. We got Mike Rupp coming up. NHL network analyst. He'll give us a deeper dive into Patrick Waugh and the whole Islander situation. In the meantime, 25 minutes from now, we'll get our very own Luke Fox, Sportsnet.com. CA covers the Toronto Maple Leafs, does an excellent job.

Things that you pulled out of Saturday night, including Scott Lawton. Where do you want to start? Yeah, I mean, there was the moment, first off, Luke, wrote an article today. I'm going to talk to Luke about how, you know, Lawton should come back to Toronto, you know, still wanting him to be a part of it. But it did stand out to me that him and Nyes got into it a little bit. I don't know if you saw that little interaction. I did, yeah, I did.

And I can't deny that my one reaction is like, I wonder if Nyes is kind of a punk. Like, I don't know. That'd be good. You don't mind having Travis Kineckney on your team. But I wonder if there's anything that stems back to their time together. If that's just an in the game. No, no, I tend to think that, well, first of all,

do you want to hear Nize talk about the interaction? Yeah, let's do it. We have a Nize clip there, Derek, on the interaction. Nice clip one. Good. Yeah, I mean, it was nothing important. So were you surprised he got that fiery? I mean, he's a competitive guy.

A little shocked, but yeah, I mean, expect him to be competitive. Yeah, not exactly. Oh, my gosh. What a great guy. And we just, you know, have a lot of fun and just giving it to each other a little bit. None of that. I guess what worries me about it is that everyone to a man, over multiple organizations.

It's like Scott Lawton is the man. The number one guy. Everyone loves this guy. And if Nyes is a guy that Lawton was like, that dude sucks, it makes me a little nervous. Yeah. But I think this also is something that we have nothing else to talk about. Totally.

And he was mad in the moment. And like we saw him go after. We saw him go after. Was it, Taves we saw him go after? Yeah. And the Jets when the guy was scoring, he was going out. Like, he's a fiery. My best friend in the face.

He's a fiery guy for sure. but at the same time, I'd be lying if I didn't have some of the same thoughts that you did. So I don't know if there's anything there. Kipper seems to think there's something there. Yeah, I just think there's something there. I can tell. Well, no, I don't want to go there because I don't know,

but I know that I've played against teams that I've been moved off of, including flyers to Washington, Washington to Hartford, Hartford to Toronto, and you play your buddies for the first time, and you don't want to look like, like you're cutting deals out there. Right.

So you don't engage, but you certainly don't go up to a guy and look like that. Like Nyes gave him a verbal, whatever, after they scored it looked like. What are what he said? On for another one, eh? The other... Yeah. Only a third round pick, eh?

That's all your word? The other thing that I thought about, too, is... It's a tough year for the Leafs, where it's completely off the rails. And not everybody's going to be happy. Not everybody's going to be thinking that you necessarily did everything you could. So does Scotty Lawton now look at that team right now and judge them a little bit? For sure.

On why the season was so bad, I'd say yes. Mm-hmm. Hmm. And the other thing that struck me, is that Scotty Lawton in the year 2006 as as as much of an old school guy I can find. Okay? That guy could play of any era. And there's a few Leafs that couldn't play in any era.

No. No, that's true. I just wonder, old school guy and then watching the Leafs on a few occasions this year whether or not Scott Lotton looked at that team and go, yeah. You. I have a tough time playing with certain guys. Interesting. I just tend to think he's pissed off. I think I scored on again.

Yeah. But I mean, like, yeah, you played. You get it. I think, yeah. I can't help in city. That's just me. No, no, I know. Not knowing anything.

No, I know. That's just me going with my ex-player spitey senses. And I think there's probably something from Lott. where he's pretty upset with how the Leafs experience went, right? Like in the totality of it. Totally. It was a not good time. Like, heard of multiple times, didn't get to play enough, crushing playoff exits.

Like, I don't know. I thought he had a real potential to be a Leaf folk hero, like, that goes down as one of the guys that's more popular in this era. And it just didn't work out right. He gave Nyes a pretty good shot. That was not bad, yeah. From behind. A little less buddy, buddy.

Yeah, well, it's. I don't know if you saw the other angle where Nyes takes the verbal shot at him, but... I love this guy, man. Yeah. I love this guy. I love Scott Lotton. So I don't know. I'm not afraid who knows it.

I don't know. Would he come back? Would he, what... Is he okay to come back? Would he want to see some changes first? Does he... How much are they willing to pay him? There's a ton before...

We can jump to a conclusion that it's realistic. Is the coach going to play me more than 30 minutes? I think that's part of it. I do think the biggest... conversation around the Toronto Maple Leaf Police right now and we can pick through that game a bit more if you guys want. I'm good. But the biggest conversation is teams

are firing their coach but because they want to get things right now and jump the queue. Like that's the big thing everything everyone's saying about the Islanders firing is there's not who's out there now it's Lavioette Gallant Cassidy. Cassidy. Patrick Waugh.

Patrick Waugh. Yeah. But like you know it's a lot of I want to get to that group first Because there's not many perfect fits out there. Like Long Island is an awesome setup. New building in New York, up and coming, you know, two first rounders on the way in Schaefer. Like, you can sell a coach on that.

I think there's a lot of people going, did the Leafs miss one? And should they do it before the end of the year or soon? And for that, they need a GM. They have to hire a GM or president before they can do that. So where are we at in this GM president search? Good article on Friday, by the way, Kippy. It's juicy.

That was. I hope people didn't miss it on Friday. It was juicy. All right, we'll talk about that. But there's some stuff in there. You bring up an excellent point, a question of how fast should the Leafs be moving on this? And who are they in a race with?

No question that the Islanders went after Pete DeBore because they didn't want to lose them to anybody else. There it is. 100% on that one that if we're not all in on Patrick Gua right now then go get the guy that we're We have a chance while he's available And like what the Blues did with Montgomery

That was That's right Yeah right That was a domino effect from Tortoralla In Vegas So But those are Those are sound managerial teams

With George McPhee and Kelly McCriman and Darshan the island isn't going anywhere No So those are just easy decisions Justin just made an excellent point

Like how can you go hire a coach When you don't even know Who your general manager is Or if he's going to have someone above him Above him The easy answer is You can't You just can't

And I'm I'm okay with that I'm okay with that. I am too. Because I don't want them to make a mistake because they felt rushed. Yeah. So what you're kind of getting at

is that you don't necessarily want one of the guys' names that are, like, you know, you'd want them to do some research and find somebody else that maybe the next I'm up and comer as opposed to just pulling the DeBore lever or the Cassidy lever is what you're kind of getting at there. It's like a sunny meta going to want Bruce Cassidy. You know, that's literally Babcock Dubas. You can't hire them out of order.

Yeah. And by the way, the sunny thing is I'm just using an example of what could be a contrast and interest. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? And I was a guy like Sunny going to say they went and hired Patrick Waugh, right? Like, can we just not sit from here right now and look at it and go, ah, disaster. Disaster.

Then you have to go get a pro-W guy and that changes your whole search. Got to be elected. That one. on Toronto. It would be unbelievable. I also... Kippers, clippers would be better. There's just... I don't think there's just... It's complex and there's just no easy answer

for this. And the best answer is you don't do anything because you're trying to react to the outside influences of the islanders in Vegas. Sure, but let's also not drag our feet. Right? Like I get,

you don't want to be reactionary, but you also don't want to go, well, we just take as much time as we need. So do you think, you know, initially, I think Pelley had said something like they'd like to have someone in place by May. Was it by May or end of May? I think he, anywhere between four and six weeks. Yeah. I think it was before.

It's an MCL injury for the organization here. Before the combine in Buffalo. Yeah. Which we have it, I think, first week in June. Yeah. Right. We're not going to Google that one. So, I mean.

First week in June. Six weeks? But don't... Six weeks is too... If you were thinking about doing this with Trilliving and you'd been asking around the organization about what his role is and how he's doing, you'd think that they were maybe having conversations with other people.

Like, you'd think... Six weeks is an eternity, fellas. Who is having conversations? Well, no. Like, I mean, Peli was interviewing people around the Leafs, I mean, about the future of Brad for Living. If you're doing that, your thought process is, probably of letting him go.

On to the next. You would think that they're maybe thinking about who the predecessor would be at that point as opposed to just being like, okay, this is done now we're going to start. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do. So that would be, again, Keith Pelly going through a process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feels right now like the most common names being circulated to Mike Gillis is,

I mean, hasn't worked since 2014 in the NHL. seems like the name you hear the most. Elliot's talked about it quite a bit. I mean, Sunny Metta, outside of him, I haven't really heard any GM names. Oh, Lombardi, Shirelli. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Peter Shirelli.

Yep. Yeah, they're out there. Kevin Adams has been said. Yeah, by me. No, pretty you said it today on, I think on the, or somewhere. The other thing, too, is we got to remember is Keith Peli also mentioned that there is

there's a firm out there too. that they're going to lean on. Mm-hmm. A search firm. This is how you're going to get Ralph Kruger from Liverpool to come coach your team. Southampton. Right? Southampton.

Right? No one would have known. How quickly do you think they move? Right? Yeah. I mean, they want to keep billing hourly until literally the day the combine starts. I can guarantee you the firm didn't work on Friday.

Yeah. Or we work efficiently to save you money, sir. And they're not making any calls today. Was today a holiday or is it not? Is today a holiday? No, the firm? said yes it's a it is for government okay oh they're definitely not working yeah no they're definitely not working so it doesn't it doesn't feel like something's imminent so i'd rather be this way than them announcing

somebody that makes my eyes roll do you have any intel on who a favorite would be or any anything on that no no no and i don't i don't believe they're in a position right now to to be leaning somewhere heavily. I think it's wide open. Okay. Okay. So that, yeah, they're probably then going to be hiring out of the same pool as maybe Vancouver, maybe, I don't know, you can go through the NHL list of teams who miss playoffs

and there's probably half this team that's looking for a coach. Nashville's doing in-person interviews now. So it... Nashville's sure been... They have not taken advantage of a month-long head start, a month and a half. No. Like, how long has it been since Barry Trots jumped out of a GM chair? Seattle, Winnipeg, probably looking for a coach, I would imagine.

So, L.A., Nashville. Before we went to the conversation with the GMs there, I mentioned your piece that you wrote on Friday. It was juicy, a few tidbits in there, including what the potential Nye's package could have been, Morgan Riley stuff. but the name that you mentioned in there that's been really popular is Pronger. And you said that they had had a conversation potentially. What was the latest on that when you wrote?

I think just, again, thrown out a wide net. Yeah. And we've had him on the show. He's done another podcast, Chris Pronger, not shy away from, I think, feeling like he'd like a Cracket helping a team. I don't know what capacity, you know, whether or not they'd be pulling the same

Hall of Fame kind of higher as Brendan Shannon had a little bit more experience working at the NHL office too Pronger Also a polished politician of sorts Shanny right? Yeah he wasn't on Toronto radio saying tear it to the screws

Brong is a hockey guy Yeah He still sounds like a hockey guy I think Max said it on her show that a lot of people are just want him on the ice Yeah that's totally right Yeah Yeah I think

Through his media blitz here on his book. He's also certainly weighed in heavily on the leaf situation. I think in many ways he's presenting himself like, this is who I am, this is what I'm about, this is what I can bring. And if you like it, let's have a conversation. If not, I'm okay.

Yeah. He's made a hundred and some million dollars, not desperate to go work for a mediocre team as an assistant coach. Yeah. I just think for a team that is looking to, get back in the playoff mix. He will not get the same benefit that Brendan Shanahan had

probably in the first three or four years. Do you think he is a name that other teams are looking at too, not just the Leafs? Like would Nashville be in on him? Would other teams be in on him? I believe that Nashville had also mentioned that they're looking for more experience.

Okay. And Ryan Getslav was also, I think, a name that has surfaced around there. Okay. Well, one of the questions I have for some of... He's not selling a book, though, so we haven't really heard from him. One of the questions I have for these Hall of Fame, great players, huge names, confident guys,

all of which are things I like are, how much are you willing to work? Like to really pour over tape. If you're going to be a GM, you need to know what the fourth line of the New Jersey Devils does. Like, how effective are they? Have you seen some of the underlying data? You know, have you watched some tape? It's like I truly believe you got to pour yourself into these roles, particularly in Toronto, because there's fans and media that do that and they'll know.

They'll know if you're faking it. So it's work. I don't think this is like that guy did good shooting it in the net. We need a net shooter for the GM. Like there's work to be done. Yeah. It's a great point. It is.

And it all depends on your interview process and how many times you want to hear from somebody. and what is their planned, how do they present it, where's their focus? And you can get to learn somebody pretty quick and, you know, over dinners or board rooms or cocktails or whatever you want to call it. And at the end of the day, whether we're talking about Rogers hiring people here or the Leafs or a hospital, like you're down to a gut feel, right? Totally. that's one of the things I've learned the most as I get older is in those big rooms making big decisions at the end of day it's a few people going I don't know what do you think

what do you think all right well I think it's him so you know you just make a call at the end there's no data for that so the only thing also you got to keep in mind is like what is the true ask here on on being a general manager and it ranges from club to club on responsibilities and boardrooms and his Brendan Shannon was the president you know he also not only had to watch over

his his management staff and his Kyle Dubus and the pro scouting right down to the coaches the trainers the players but he also had great responsibilities and sales and sponsorship and blah blah blah blah blah right and it's Once he left and you didn't replace him, I'm not sure how much of that fell on Brad Tree Living. And whether or not Brad had anything to do with it, nothing to do with it. If it didn't, where was it?

Did it all of a sudden go to Keith Pelly this whole time? And where's the ask? So, for example, you know, a lot's been made out of the Leafs. And, you know, what is for sale, right? Yeah. Waving the flag, sitting in the penalty box, having dinner in the dressing room. So at some point, that has to go from a boardroom idea to a hockey guy. So was it, it wasn't, it wasn't Brandon Shanahan.

He's gone now. So you assume that goes to Brad Tree Living. We're going to sell the dressing room. No, sorry, our prestigious room is not going to smell like salmon for the boys tomorrow. Sorry, we're not doing that. And that's a valid point. But like, so you hire Sunny Mehta, and Sunny Mehta is going to go up to Keith Pelly and say,

I'm not having wine stains by Austin Matthews stall. or is he just being a general manager and trying to find contracts and undervalued? Right? Yeah. And it's just, you don't have that problem in Columbus or Carolina.

This is a bigger role. Right? It's a way bigger role. This is a beast. It is an absolute beast. And you've got to be very careful. Again, who's your hire, what they can handle,

how much can they put on their plate, who can collaborate, who can empower and you don't get the right guy. You're just going back down another rabbit hole. Well, let me tell you, one of the biggest failings of hockey over the past five years has watching the president role become the GM role. The president, and it used to be a president of hockey operations,

who's a business role primarily Brian Burke, I think maybe did that for Pittsburgh. But to me, a president is running the brand, right? It's your PR staff. It is your corporate sales. It's your public appearances. That's the business of the Maypres. And that's not the job of the guy you want finding an undervalued left winger from, you know,

who's actually playing in the Swiss League right now. Those are different jobs. So the president all of a sudden that we think it's Gorton and Montreal making decisions or Rutherford in Vancouver. That's not, you're just the GM. And the other guy's the AGM. Who's the president? So to me, it's like you need a president of business and a GM. I know, I know, but they...

All this stuff makes me really hopeful that it's hired two people. They eliminated the two jobs and they turned it into one. How'd that go? Now you're got to go back and say, I was wrong. It didn't work. It didn't work. I was wrong. We need two guys again.

But you don't have to say it because we know it did. You know, and that's okay. I mean, it was worth a try. I've made a huge mistake. You know, was there some redundancy there? Turns out not enough to justify elimination. the position. I assume you can get that job hired for less than Brendan was making and Maasai was making. Maybe there is some way to do it cheaper. I don't know.

You know what? Yes. You're right. Elliot mentioned that there's no shortage of people that want this job. Yeah. And it can't come at this is how much money I want or I'm not going to do it. And I don't think Keith Pellier or the ownership should want that, right? That's the first sign that you're in it for the wrong reasons. One of the things that people liked about Brandon is he had a great sense for the honor, pride of the brand,

right, he changed the logo, went back to an old school, sort of more feelsy old time logo. You know, they dialed in the experience of what it meant to be a Maple Leaf. I felt like he got right. And I think that's an important part of the next person, too. So to your point, it's not a paycheck. It's do you understand what this is in this city? That's important, too.

Let's go break. Okay. Okay. Luke Fox, sportsnet.com. We'll join us after the break. Plenty more on this leaf hour edition of our program. Stick around. Hey, it's Aylish Forafar. And I'm Justin Cuthbert.

Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. It's the fan-free game. 6 p.m. weekdays on SportsSats, SportsSat 590 the fan, and wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the program. Nick Kippebrose, Justin Borence, Sammy McKeele. Let's welcome in Luke Fox.

Luke Fox Sportsnet.C.A. Covering the Toronto Maple Leafs for us all season long. Luke, what's going on, bud? How are you? Happy Easter. How are you guys? We're good. Happy Easter to you, too, to you and yours. Saturday night. That's it. That's all I got for you.

Saturday night. Go, go, go. Fun game, entertaining game, I don't know. It was better than we went in thinking, right? All of us, I think, you know, the players aren't going to say it, but I think everyone playing out the string or following the string as it gets played out is kind of looking around like, what's the angle on this one? Like, what's the motivation here?

And we had that a little bit with the Radcoe Goethe's game and Anandah. And then you're just like, okay, what kind of meaning can we find in these games? And L.A. usually plays a pretty low event, dull, defensive brand of hockey. So if you showed up Saturday night and you saw 13 goals and some scrums and a bunch of guys that were trying, it was at least like, it was at least an entertaining game. I found it really interesting after the game. I wanted to watch, hang around and watch after overtime to see what the Leafs would do. And John Tavares is not the captain, but he's still the captain.

So he was waiting there while the Kings did like their salute to the fans, whatever they do. And it took a long time and he wasn't leaving the ice. So I asked him about it after and he said, yeah, I wanted to talk to Kopitar. I wanted us to send him off the right way. And then, Ange, I guess, said, let's do it. it behind the scenes. Let's have a little handshake moment in the background. It doesn't have to be in front of everyone. But I kind of love that from Tavares. Like even in this crappy lost season, he still understands the moment that this guy deserves respect.

I'm going to make sure myself and all the other Maple Leafs shake this man's hand because he's going to be a Hall of Fame or he's a legend. I just love little touchy classes like that. So you're looking for little things. And, you know, John DeVarre's 30 goals, I mean, it's incredible, right? He's had great longevity being a goal score. So look at it at that game on Saturday night. You know, I find myself, as you know, that I think they should be trying to get into that bottom five. And in that vein, you should be playing a bunch of kids from the Marleys and all that. They did call up, William Villeneuve.

By the way, you were like a guy or two away from just maybe one more mistake or one less play made. maybe you get zero points instead of one, but they haven't been proactive on that. Villeneuve, is he going to play? He was there watching, but they didn't put him in the lineup. Yeah, and they didn't play

Jacob Quillan either. Brue said that he wanted Posetta just because he thought it could get a little, a little feisty, but you compare what the Leafs are doing versus one of the teams they're in this tankathon with the Fort of Panthers

who are shutting down everyone and playing all the call-ups. And the Leafs are, still kind of half in half out. And I wonder how much that has to do with a coach who only knows one way. He's trying to win the hockey game. Are you technically eliminated? Yeah. Craig Brubay doesn't care. He wants the two points. He's wired one way. And so he's going to play the guys that he thinks are going to get him the win, even if a call up like Vilnov is available. Now, in my mind, if you had a clear plan from up top,

you would have shut some of these guys down earlier when you realize you're not in contention, then let's make an organizational decision. We know the coach is going to coach to win every night, but we can take away some of his tools. We can make him play the kids if those are the only ones available. So to me, it kind of just speaks to the disconnect. And I think there's a disconnect with the fan base.

because if you're a Leafs fan, you don't want one point. You almost got two points. And you probably would have, you know, if Joseph Wall didn't play the way he did, you might have ended up with two points. And that's not what you want. So there's this disconnect. You should absolutely play it.

Now, I don't know if Villeneuve's going to get in one of these last five games. I think he should. I think he should be rewarded for being a good Marley. And I think you got to see what you have in the cupboard. You got to see. What else is the use of these games? So Luke, that kind of brings me back to Tavaris a little bit here because he's been on fire since Austin Matthews has been gone.

And three points Saturday night played over 20 minutes. And isn't he one of those examples of, okay, why? Like, so there's no question now with this run of me. meaningless games, his numbers warrant that next season he should start. Those are productive numbers that should start second line centermen behind Austin Matthews come September. But is anyone not comfortable with that now? The question is, how do you upgrade that position? Who are you going to find to push Tavares either to 3C or to the wing?

Who is that guy? Yeah, you know, to me, you just got to start making good decision after good decision. I don't know if that one is. You're right. I don't know who does it. That's Sunny's job. Right. Right.

That's, you know, potentially Dean Lombardi's job. That's that, that's the new guy coming in who's going to be metric centic. What's the term? Data centric. Not that. Metrics. Data centric. Yeah.

Like that's who's supposed to fix it. Right. But I think if I'm that guy, second line center is probably pretty far down the list. I want two defensemen that can slop people down before I want a second line center. I did the exercise last week of looking around second line NHL centers. Tavares is easily top 10. And then when you factor in his cap hit, you might even have him higher in terms of what

can produce. Is he a championship 2C, Nick? I agree with you. No, we've already seen that. But if you're trying to fill holes on the Maple Leafs and make them back in the mix next year, 2C is probably not where I'm starting.

I need a winger in the top six that can play with Matthews. I don't think they ever really found that. I think they probably need two defensemen that can slot guys down a little bit better. And then maybe you're looking at that center. But they need center depth for sure. I mean, they traded away

Lawton and Nick Waugh. So tell us a bit about Lawton and your piece that you had on Sportsnet.com. Yeah, so I guess the point I'm trying to make is, and I know it's rare, that you can bring a guy back after you traded

him away. You know, maybe your listeners can think of another example. The most recent one I found was Antoine Vermet 2015. Yeah. Arizona Coyotes loaned this guy to the Blackhawks. This is a while ago, over 10 years, right?

It's rare. He goes and wins a cup, signs back with the coyotes. But the bond between Lawton and his teammates and the city, there might be a path. Now, he's not thinking that way. He's a competitor. He wants to get the Kings into the playoffs and take this thing as far as he can go. And numbers will matter.

But my argument, my main argument is the Toronto Maple Leafs didn't lose of Centerman when they lost Scott Lawton, they lost a really important piece of their culture. A glue guy, held guys accountable, chatty on the bench, everyone loved them, knew the right time to make a joke, you know, check, check a guy whether his ego was getting too big or whether he needed building up. Easton Cowan said he's changed who I am as a person. The guy that was only there a year. And I've never heard an X-Leaf talked about the way I heard Scott Lawton talked about when I went around and talked to a handful of guys. And I'm just saying if you don't replace them, and there's a limit to how much you're going to spend to get them, you

better find other guys that can improve the culture. Because Troy Stetcher told me, look, the vocalness and the accountability has gone down since we traded that guy away. And those are things the Steve's need more of, not less of. What did you make out of his exchange with Matthew Nyes? Yeah. What I made of it is this guy doesn't care if he used to be your teammate or not. And it's funny because that morning, Stephen Lawrence told me he said he's going to, he's not going to take any prisoners out there.

That's just how he's wired. He wants to win more than he wants to be your buddy. He'll be your buddy after, but in the game, he's ferocious. So there was the nice thing. I would love to know what Nye said. I asked Matthew, and he wouldn't tell me, of course, and I get that. But I would love to know what he said to make Lawton get fired up like that. But there was that moment.

And then I don't know if you guys watched the opening draw in overtime. So the Kings sent Lawton out against Tavares. And these guys love each other. Like Tavaris is a huge Lawton fan and vice versa. That opening draw, it was almost like Lawton just bull them over. Like I've never, rarely to see a guy taking a draw that aggressively. He was just like attacked him and worried about the puck second. And that just speaks to his competitiveness.

That's another reason why they could use a guy like him. Yeah. No, it is something that has been a bit of a shortcoming. So, you know, we're heading down the stretch here for the Leafs, five games left. What are positive outcomes? What are we looking for from this Leaf Team? Sorry? Five and O.

Five and O. Five and O. Is that better or is Owen? 5. Well, I mean, if you're a fan, and the only thing you're hoping for is lottery odds is you're hoping for O'N5. But I can tell you, being around those guys, they're hoping for 5-0. They want to see if they can spoil the Ottawa senators. They want to reign on Alex Ovechkin's parade, and we don't know if this might be his last time in Toronto this week.

But, I mean, I think if you're an outsider, you want them to lose. You want them to play Vilnav and Quillen and see what you have there. And that's about it. I mean, it's so bizarre because the Leafs offseason is in full swing and there's another week and a half on the schedule here. Do you think, Luke, there might be a little bit momentum with the thought that Craig Barubi could weather the huge storm this season and somehow be there in September for the Toronto Maple Leafs?

It's crazy to say it, Nick. I think there's a chance. I think it's a low chance, like maybe, I don't know, 8%, 10%, I think it's low. But the fact that he's still here leads you to believe that there's a chance and we all know how GMs work. They don't want to, you know, waste their bullets right away. Matthew Darsh waited until, what was it, game 78 to waste his first bullet.

Even though Patrick Wall wasn't the guy he hired, we just saw it with Brad Tray Living. Sheldon Keith wasn't his guy. He didn't know him at all. Everyone thought, you know, Keith and Dubas would probably go out the door together. but Tree Living knew that, hey, if I hang on to him, give it some time, the guy knows something. Maybe he can tell me something about the players. Maybe I'll give him a chance. And then you make the change.

So I'm not saying there's a 0% chance. Now, what I believe is that the Leafs and Brubay aren't on the same page. They haven't been for a while. If they wanted to save the season, they probably should have done it instead of just Mark Savard, way back before Christmas. but the fact that he's here this long, you never know. All right, buddy. Great stuff as always.

Luke. Thanks for your time. Thanks, Luke. Appreciate it. All right, take care, guys. Thanks. Sportsnet.com's very own, Luke Fox. That's definitely the thing you're bringing to this show today

that you think that you didn't think last week is that Brooby has maybe more. He's not dead yet, Undertaker, up from the camera. I'm with Luke. I don't think it's, I don't think it's zero chance, but it's not a high probable chance either that he's... There's a lottery odds are better than the 8 to 10 he just gave it.

There's only one reason he would be staying. It would be financial, right? Well, certainly you couldn't look at performance this year. All of their underlying metrics are in the tank. What other, what reason? Give me a reason. Kipper or Borny. Give me a reason.

Give me a reason. The reason is I can't find anyone I think is better. Oh. That's a reason. The roster is not to his coaching style. And he could say, how can you give me that team and expect me to win the way I coach? I'm putting my foot down. Oh, yeah.

This is crazy, Doc. Yeah. This is like, it's professional sports. It's the biggest market. You've had two years. I'm not arguing with you. It's their worst year in a decade. Like, it's over.

Historically speaking, there was almost zero chance that Craig Bruby was going to see Game 82. Yeah. Most times often than not, the guy's gone by now. He's just done. But I don't know. He survived this long.

And it just makes you wonder. And I don't know if new general manager comes in. and he looks at his roster, listens to Craig. Can Craig... New GM comes in and goes... Talk himself into starting in September. He goes, you know what this team needs?

More direct play. Well, he's looking at... More north-south direct. Yeah. Sonny made a get handed his first report. 30-second, 32nd, 32nd, 30-second, 30-second, 30-second, 30-second, 31st, 30 seconds. Like, yeah.

Straight. Let's do it. What if we get count in Robertson, really to hunt the forecheck? Let's get pucks in. It's just a simple question I wanted to answer. Yeah, we're giving you an answer. It's crazy talk. It's crazy talk.

You're not getting an argument out of me. I just hope that the reason they don't keep them is because of finances. No, they can't because they have talked about having the resources to do whatever they want. Can't get outshot and outchanced every game. Every night. Every end, every game, they're just blocking shots. Austin Matthews is like a goalie. I like what Craig Brubay represents in hockey.

Love him. I love the man. I do. I like Patrick Waugh too. But it's just not. It ain't working. It ain't working. It doesn't work.

So how many points would John Tavaris had finished this year if Austin Matthews was out the whole season? It's unbelievable. Another point per game year? I don't know. Did you, like, the past. Is he got 16 points in 12 games? I put it on the lineup here.

Yeah. Yeah, 16 points in 12 games. Yeah, nice run. 8th, 30th goal. Yeah, it's great. So the lease are out of it and they're trying to lose and he turns into Sid. Good job, John. That pass he makes

Morgan Riley got to 10 goals That pass he makes the Cowan on the power plate Is silly through the legs That's the best pass I've ever seen John Tavares make Yeah And he's not a passer He's not a playmaker He's not a Cowan

battling for position to get there That was so great I love Cowan man He has really taken strides The reverse hit in that last game Like he's He looks good If Tavares

Was available for Trade But he signed a no move for two years, but if he was available, like, he would have got you a boatload. A boatload? Yes. Like a... You know the demand at center?

Like a real boatload? What's a boat load for you? Like a dingy load. A first... A first plus plus. I don't know. A first plus plus. No way.

Really? But he's 70-point guy. Yeah, but you sit here and you crap on him every day. I don't crap on him. Oh, yes. You do. I don't crap on him. I don't crap on him.

He's competitive. He plays hard around the net. He's just too soft for me, you know, as a confrontational guy. I can't have Austin and John at one and two. Also, one in the pile of the non-confrontational guys. Also, that plus minus, he won the Hawaii Open and Kalua. That's all. What is he minus 26?

He competes for his points, play around the net. Leads the league and puck battles one every year. All right. We got all week to get into this. I mean, all of year. We got a lot more to go. Mike Rupp, when we return, we go national.