Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Holy Woll-y

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee look back on the Leafs' 2-1 win over the Columbus Blue Jackets in overtime. They discuss Joseph Woll's standout performance, Easton Cowan's energy, William Nylander and Craig Berube's bench conversation, and Auston Matthews' return from injury. Then, they reflect on the team's decision to scratch Dakota Joshua and Matias Maccelli and whether the lineup remains the same on Friday against the Capitals. Later, Leafs radio analyst Jim Ralph (34:40) shares his thoughts on Matthews' return, the team needing more from Bobby McMann and Cowan finding a fit on the second line. Finally, the guys discuss the return of the five-forward power play.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right, we are live. The Real Kipper and Born show, season 5, leaf edition hour of our program. Nicky Kipperyos, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, Jake the Snake Shultz. We are live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto, and streaming always on Sportsnet Plus, also available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Terrific two hours coming up. Jim Ralph, of course, does a great job as radio color analyst, along with Joe Bowen.

We'll join us in about 35 minutes. And at the top of the hour in our national program, we'll welcome in Terry Ryan, one time Montreal Canadian, former pro, but now known best as one of the stars of Shorzie. And yours truly will play against Terry Ryan and the cast of Shoresy tomorrow night at Scotia Bank Arena where like I don't know how many people are going to come. It's almost sold out.

I think there's still tickets available if you want to, you know. Do you have any access to tickets? My wife really wants to go. You know what? You got to hook me out. I got to tell you something. Like I'm getting bombarded since I started announcing this on our show. People are like, can you get me tickets?

And I don't, I know. I can't I can't I think me with leaf tickets people are like oh yeah you probably have access you can't be someone I'd love I'd love to hook you up but there's like 10 people I can't go I can't go anyway I mean we gotta do we're doing a leaf stock so I I mean are you aren't but I am

and yeah so so looking forward to Terry Ryan in the next hour in the meantime who had Willie Nealander in the center square of their overtime bingo card last night. Yeah, it's just free.

It's a free spot. Yeah, I had it. Everyone had it. He's the all-time leading overtime goal score for in Toronto Maple Leafs history now. Yeah, I hate that stat. Well, we'll break into a lot of stuff here.

But, okay, let's just start off the top. That, like, this was... Hey, before we get into this. Oh, okay. I just want to do two things. Do three things. Remind everybody that tomorrow, because I was talking about the weird puck drop time

that got me reminding. Yes. that we are on 2 to 4.30 tomorrow. Okay. So it's an extra half hour. We're not on from our usual 4 to 5 because the Leifes are playing during our usual time slot. So we are 2 to 4. So it's a throwback to the Jays times where we were that time.

So yeah, 2 to 4 tomorrow if we're listening to this. The Leafs hour will be 2 o'clock hour. And officially welcome back. Oh, yeah. You sound a little better. You sound like you got more spring in your step. You're obviously back from your millennial cold. Listen, I tried to push through two days.

I gave it a real hard drive, but it was not a good scene yesterday. I will say, Kipper, I woke up this morning around 8 a.m. The crack of 8 a.m. when I usually wake up. And I looked at my phone and I had a message from you at like 7.30 being like, how you feel insane. You're like, you miss me, bud? Did you miss me? You give me the nod, and I'm bringing chicken soup over. I'll bring you a Greek soup if I knew it could get you back.

Yeah. You're ready, pal. Yeah, oh, whoa. But yeah, I just pulled a kid right. Something played over here. But yeah, no, I'm back. Good. Yesterday was not pretty.

I didn't want to expose you guys to what I was feeling like. But I'm feeling better today. Not perfect, but good enough to go. Listen, we're going to, we'll discuss what we liked, what we didn't like last night. But at the end of the day or at the end of the night, the glass was half full. It's full. It's full of points. You can only get two points and they got two.

Look pretty bleak there when Zach Warenski shot one into the net, the only one to get past Well, I guess he actually shot two past wool, and they got a gift in the one case. But yeah, happy to see the results, I thought Joseph Wolle, their best player, gave them a chance and kind of bought them some time here on this road trip to figure things out, you know, as they try to get healthy and get back to full strength. I would say that Easton Cowan firing it in the net off the Willie Nealander pass, his reaction, I don't know if it was just his reaction or just the way that game was. feeling or just the season. That felt really important. Big. Like, that felt like a...

It's great, and it's a really nice touch pass from Willie. Great shot, by the way, by Cowan. Opposid side, pose. He's dying, folks. Give him a sec. Give him a sec. Buying him time. Just felt like a big moment. So, to Sammy's point, the raw

reaction from this kid, and it's not so much when he dropped on his knees, it's when the boy started circling around him. And just the raw emotion of what he was feeling at that time was like peak for me over

the 22 games, 23 games like how is it so hard for a lot of other guys not to feel like that at any point so far to start the season that's what that's what I drew out of that when it was all said and done is like can we get more guys on the team

to feel like that? Well it's funny because I actually sent you guys the quote from San Jose Sharks coach Worsowski is it said about Colorado he said the way they play shift in shift out they get in your face they win pucks I mean it's 6-0 Malinski's chasing our guy down the half

wall like at zero zero in game five of the cup final we need to get to that mentality Leafs do too yeah you know like that constant pedal down this is important let's go great to see from Cowan and I will say you said the game was important he feels important yeah

okay that's maybe a detriment to the team of how key he feels to them? I don't know people keep saying that. Why is it so bad that he matters? This much? I don't know how much this much is. I just think he's one of the guys who matters now. He's playing with Willie and Tavares. Good

player. We'll get Craig Bruby's overall view of the game and then we'll talk about Cowan a little deeper. Well, a good P.K. in the first period, I think, you know, the period was even, but we got three penalties and guys did a good job killing the penalties

and the goalie was solid. Second period, I thought we were pretty good. I thought it was a low event period, but we played properly. And, you know, in the third, like, it's just a little bit, not loose, but just some situations where, you know, puck play or just some situational play

that we gave them some opportunities. But we found a way to win the game, which is the most important thing. Foley was really good. And I thought the three guys that came in tonight that were injured were pretty good, pretty good for us tonight. Yeah, he was right on loose. In the third? Yeah.

Yeah. I was so mad when Cowan scores this big emotional moment. And was it the next shift, boys? Next shift. Great A. The wall has to make his two best saves of the game immediately. I'm like, are you kidding me, guys? Dig in.

You know, it's funny. You know, I know that they lost a couple good. defensive forwards marner camp those guys are not there but like there's so many game states right now where you watch guys and for me it's always the high forward where i'm like where you going where you go and oh god it's a rush against just like why aren't you pulling out why aren't you thinking defensively and i mean the the the willy one he actually sat a couple shifts for it on the five-man power play where he dives in on a puck it's like have you no situational awareness you can't just stand flat foot in the middle of the ice and

NHL or has solid possession coming at you and Simmer who's such a pro even was like oh I mean you'll see Willie not moving his feet there you're like yeah if Simmer's saying it it's like you're probably going to sit a ship for you. We stay on Willie and Burby now or I mean sure

they all got we got to get to them all so okay so not Willie's finest game for the first 50 minutes no right and like it just seems like it's an ongoing thing between now barubi and willie and i don't know if the cameras are just catching it at the right time and they're missing maybe other exchanges

but willie to me last night is he's like i think he's he's getting his fill of it right now i think he's pretty close to going hey man i've had enough well it's that's as much as a as you can talk back to a coach you know being you know gesticulating in a general direction and you know that's the maximum allowed before they tell you you don't get to hockey you know that's usually pretty much the limits but this has always been it's seemingly since broube's arrived this has been what the relationship has been at two ways free they love to talk hockey they're open with each other blah blah blah but staying there being like that's a different look there's a couple of things that we haven't seen and you i don't know if it was our game or not but

You made the comment about Willie the end of the period and really sitting on the bench. So that was off of another exchange. And even on his game winning goal last night and overtime, not the usual Willie type of feeling or emotion on, as Sammy would say, his sally. Yeah. Like it just seems to me like... You heard your show the other day when you buried him?

I didn't bury him. And he was like, oh, this guy. score and wearing $50,000 suits. 60. Whatever it was. But I don't know. It's a fine line here. I can see both sides.

I can see Barubi as a head coach saying, Willie, we need this, this, and this. And I'm going to stay on you until I get it. And then I've also lived other sides of these type of players and the coach where it's, To Sammy's point, we've seen it for a long time. But what happens, Sammy, is somebody gets tired of it real quick here. And there is a fine line.

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a player shut down the coach too, right? And it's like, all right, you cross the line, you're going to lose me. But I know one thing, and that's that you can't lay off Willie. you can't just go well this guy just does his own thing I guess I better just let him go because he'll take 10 games but when they were in first place

when they were in first place he did say that all right just leave him alone but he doesn't whatever he said he doesn't well you can leave him alone when you're at the top of the Atlantic Division where you can't do is leave him alone when you're at the bottom was it last year that Willie had

like 97 points and had like two in the last 11 games or something like he kind of shut down a bit maybe I forget one of the past two years but either way it's like like, you know, I, Willie was on the team when I was with the Marley's and I saw his kind of come up with the Leafs and Sheldon went through this with him, where he's just a guy that sometimes you got to hold the cattle prod in the fire and go, and then you get the best

out of him for a little bit and then you got to heat it back up. It's just, I don't know. Can't stay off him for too long. What do you guys think in terms of, like, does that look like a guy that's tuned him out? Like, that's the thing. He has the game tying assistant winner. It's like, the guy that's, you know, he's, if he's willing to stand there and have the heated conversation with the coach about something, to me, sounds like at least he's still engaged with them. That's true.

I'm still willing to, he's still willing to hear what he has to say. You're probably right. Even in his post game comments, he's saying the right thing. He did say post game that he were on the same page and essentially we both want the same thing and that's for the team to win. So I think you can look at a guy and you can sit there and say, okay, he's not quitting. Like we're not seeing him shut it completely down. But there are also other type of signals that isn't conducive to what the team is trying to do.

That's all. And if Willie just has it in his head, this is the way I play. This is who I am. I got to take my chances. I got to blow zones. I can win a game on my own. Just leave me alone. Let me do it.

I think we're not going to see much of a change between this back and forth. Well, this is the thing. It's not like, oh, well, two years ago, he was up for the Selkie. And this year, his defensive game is lacking. It's like, this has always been the way he plays. He just, I don't know. Yeah. This is kind of, I know your favorite thing.

This is Willie. It is, but it really is hard. to win consistently or especially when it matters most in the playoffs like we just don't see breakaways we just don't see blown zones and you know wide open hockey we don't right and I'll tell you what we really don't see and maybe this is why you hate this Willie's record for overtime is because we don't see three on three it's it's non-existent it's not real hockey And a guy like Willie with his world-class skill, like there's a reason why he can score more goals

in the history of overtime for the Leafs than anyone else is because he's so good. He's so talented, right? Yeah. I just don't think there's anything new to say about this. Like, if we've done this for years. Yeah, I mean, I thought he was, I thought that line in general outside of Cowan,

I didn't think. I thought DeVar's like tired, a lot of mistakes, just some tired. You know what? And he's still fights. Like, listen, he's trying. On the game, tying goal. You turnovers.

Oh, really? A ton of turnovers. Just looks like a little tired. And speed. Yeah. Like, they caught, in the neutral zone, they caught him a couple of times. But good play on the winner. Oh, no.

A great, great effort to keep that puck alive behind the goal line. And you're going to get every, every ounce out of him. For sure. But. Outside of that. You guys good on Willie? You want to talk about? You know, unless you think this is going,

you seem to be implying that it's going to go somewhere. It's, yeah, I do. I think it's, I think it'll eventually come together for both of them or it's, it's going to break eventually. I just don't see, I don't want to see it anymore to be honest with you. I think you're going to. It's like your friend that, your couple friend that, you know, maybe they fight a bit.

It's like sometimes they last forever, and that's just part of how their relationship works. Or maybe someone's cheating, and there's an impending divorce, one of the two. Or they're going greater terribly. Or you stop inviting them to dinner. Yeah. Well, Lily does like to cheat up the ice once in a while.

Matthews and I is returning. Thoughts. Yeah, I just, the only line that controlled shots, play, possession, et cetera, expected goals was the Tavares' Nealander Cowan line last week. The rest of them were underwater. Anyway. Under water. So, Austin, he spoke postgame as well.

I don't know if you have any of it. But he just said, it took me a while to get my legs going. Can I be honest? I listened to it. And it's just so vanilla and boring that I'm just like, it's worse than Brubay. Okay. Like I don't want it. Did you see that?

Did you see a, I thought he was a little bit more engaged towards the latter part of the game? Yeah. You know, the way I see it is. I just think how could you possibly be in shape? You know, like he doesn't look game fit to me. I think the Euro term is match fit. Like, he just looks like he's not been well.

He hasn't been practicing. He has been on the ice. How could you possibly have your legs, your cardio or whatever? He just doesn't, even when he gets a puck in the neutral zone, like it's always he doesn't have that burst, you know, but otherwise he looked good. Do your point? Like, engaged and all that, but he doesn't have that like... He just looks like a guy

that wants to just shoot the puck. yeah maybe you don't think i'm on anything there no no no this is totally to you is that like what you're talking about and in his heyday maybe a year and a half now he he to me he was a big body that reminded me of a yager where once he had the puck you know stick a leg out stick an ass out an ass cheek out and you're not you're not getting the puck off of him right he can control it he can control a play he can then that just seems that part of his game is gone and all that's really left right now is let me try to get open maybe give and go and i just

want to shoot the puck that's what i am now i'm a shooter yeah i think he could probably use and to your point is it because he he doesn't want to do that anymore or he's not conditioned to do that He doesn't have the confidence to do that But there's a big part of what made him So successful, so spectacular at times And arguably one of the best players on the planet It's just, it's been gone and it's been gone for a while And we've attributed it to injuries

And not being 100%. I don't know where we go from here. Yeah, I'm going to give him a game or two, you know, like he's been off for five games he's you know we we know the start of the year didn't go great in the early going here but i think it's you know time to physical you think it's physical all physical nothing mental's going on with him he still you expect him to be a dominant dominant player again really soon i expect him to be a dominant player again absolutely i mean i guess i don't like i'm trying to make sense of what the mental what we'd be talking about

here like do we think he doesn't want to play do you think he doesn't want to play do you think I do I think that maybe he needs to revisit passion for the game yeah 100% I do okay so you think he's lost some of that do I think he's lost a lot of confidence yes 100% I do I do on that I think there's there's a lot of things going on not just physically with him but maybe between the ears yeah no I can see that too and and I do think I do think a run of good play would go a long way to finding that other guy I don't think we're ever going to get back to trophy, you know, 70 goals, Selke, that guy.

But I do think you can have one of the league's 10 best players still. But it'll take, to your point, confidence. Are you okay with top 10? I just don't, I don't think, I don't buy as much into the mental part of it as it. I think it's just, I think it might be just physical, boys. It just doesn't move the same as he used to. He doesn't drop the shoulder and burst the same way he used to.

The skating is crazy. He's below 50th percentile. every skating category. You can talk about mental and maybe like, you know, being the captaincy and that sort of thing that we've talked about, that maybe the heavy sea on his chest, blah, blah, blah. That's been a conversation throughout his last two years when he hasn't been as good.

But for me, like, it just looks like a guy that's not the same physically when I watch him play. And that, you know, he flew intercontinentally to Germany to see a world-renowned doctor or not because he's feeling great. So I am worried that he's just never going to be. the same. That does worry me. Like, I just, I think that.

Oh, I think you and millions of Lee fans out there, there's a concern there. I would say most have concluded he's not going to be the same. I think he looked okay last night. Like Kipper said, I thought he actually was pretty engaged physically and, like, he made a couple good plays along the boards. And, you know, I thought he had the nice chance in overtime where I don't know who it is. He walked and he almost slipped it in back door.

Yeah, I mean, the guy played 24 minutes. He had three shots. He hit a post. He killed penalties. He was, you know. He was all over the ice. get it but it's just not should he be killing penalties a guy who's physically had all these issues and the wear and tear of penalty killing the stopping and the starting and you've got lawton

laurence yarn crock mcmann joshua you know why is he killing penalties he doesn't need to be killing penalties until you can find the best version of this guy which you got when he was playing 19 minutes a night you don't need him playing 24 25 in his first game back he had four separate and overtime. Like, they just kept throwing, like every time they got a chance to throw them back out there. 11 didn't get a look this time.

But here's the thing, though. It's, you're the coach of the team. The training staff tells you that Austin Matthews available. Press the Matthews button. 34 again, please. To a coach who thinks that this guy is a good hockey player. Or he's his best option

on a team that may not have a ton of great ones. Okay, tons to get into still on our leaf hour edition of our program, including the lineup, which will change again Friday, 5 p.m. tomorrow, right? against Washington. Yeah. Earlier this week, pretty much just said enough with the Dakota Joshua automatic in the lineup.

Lo and behold, they did pull him last night. Tell me what you saw without him in the lineup. And if you're on board, him going back into the lineup. There was, what was the game state where you're like, they're missing? Joshua. Right now, oh, it's Joshua time. You know, it hasn't happened for the guy.

Why don't we listen to the coach? We got Ruby clip eight there and then we'll keep going. I just think getting to his identity. He's a big guy that, you know, he has to be a physical, hard player to play against. And, you know, he's going to make and score his goals around the net, right? So I think just a little more puck touches in the offensive zone from the forecheck and then, you know, getting to the net front and, and, and, you know, we're going to, winning those battles there and tipping pucks.

He's got good hand-eye, and he has the capability of putting the puck in the net. That's where I see that his game can improve, but it's about getting there. So just from our zone out, anticipating and being direct, not only him but his linemates, and putting him in a good spot to get on the forecheck or whatever, if a puck enters his own under control, get to the net and do your work there and disrupt the other team that way. Make it hard. They don't want to box him out.

He's a big guy. So I think he can just be more engaged that way. That's exactly what I think everybody wants to see. No, no question. Everything he said is right there. But does it have to, does he have to go look for it next game? They won two one. Is two games, like, ridiculous to sit him out?

It's not. Well, and, you know, I'm looking at the lineup, and so Nealander didn't practice today, so a few things got shuffled. Like, who's coming out? Max Domi. He's coming out. Yeah. You think so?

Yeah. Well, he's practicing on the line. Like, he's a placeholder, right, for a kneelander spot. He's not in a defined spot. And I'm, okay. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that if, if Max is a healthy scratch at some point, yes. I mean, he's, he's put himself in a position where, if you got to jolt him with a healthy scratch do it i told you there's a there's a few guys

that could fall in that category and up until this week uh Dakota joshua dodged it yeah but he had the bad giveaway on the goal that led to Wurinski and the one nothing lead for Columbus tough read by stature too but it was outside of that outside of that like he was on the top line with matthews we did see some giving goes we did see a little bit the quickness is there it's not a matter of you know can't get there max you're too slow he's much quicker than joshua they looked faster last night without joshua in the lineup so i guess the one giveaway and plus everything in the past now makes max out and joshua in yeah the like and plus everything in the past matters here and i think

you know guys in the room no an accountability is something we haven't seen a whole lot of you won I know but I'm not superstitious like that like I you wanted the best lineup you can I don't know like I think there's two conversations here Kipper yeah Max definitely deserves to sit at some point this year for the way he's playing no problem with that but and I and I will be on your side for that one

but I do think that part of the conversation we've been having all year about quote unquote disconnect is one might be like, okay, you're the winger for Austin, and then next game you turn the puck over, you're out of the lineup. It's like that's, that's a wild message. Those are like really, really hard knee-jerk reactions.

They are to me, okay? You're right, Sam. We've seen it. Press box to the first line, first line to the fourth line, fourth. It changes every game. Yeah, and it's the opposite of knee-jerk. a slow boil this thing.

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you on that. And, but, but from one game to another, it's been always, uh, a new game plan. There's nothing that's stuck for like any real length of time. I, you know, I, I, I just think if you take Max and he had a different name, he would be like anyone else who's subject to this whim of, you know, you make three million bucks. Some days you're here, some days you're there will tell you where you go. and in your own words, Domi is a guy who is best as sort of a utility guy.

He can play in your top six. He can play in your bottom six. He can do a few things and it's going to be different all the time. You know, that's kind of been his. Yeah, but I also have said that that there's stretches in there. There's a week and a half, two weeks where you just let it breathe a little bit, not one night to another major changes and shuffles and zero consistency. See, the guys don't want to come to the rink, not knowing.

I think, you know, I shouldn't say I think. I'm sure when they traded for Joshua and they had some good intentions for him, you know, it didn't go well for a long time. They definitely should have sat him sooner than they did, but they finally left at the game, 20, whatever, and I'm 100% sure that they sat with him and they said, it's just, it's going to be one game. We're going to give you a game to take a look at things from above,

you know, sit one out here, and then we'll get you back in. And I think when you look at getting him back in, who else is i mean i guess callie yarn crock a guy who similarly has produced gets yanked produced gets yanked doesn't really know which way is up it's i think a lot of guys going through that i just don't know who else goes and domi's definitely been on the list of guys who've been flirting with it agree i don't know um joe wall uh we've seen this movie before right and both with stolars and wall last year where you're like Yeah, they shouldn't have won.

I think last night it was his best game I've ever seen him. Like, I've watched every game he's played pretty much over the last three years. I think that was probably the best he's ever had. You know, unbelievable. He can buy them time to sort out problems, right? Like, there was a lot of stuff. He was, he had to make some serious great A's all night long. And I just think that as they're trying to find what they are at their very best,

this guy, he's buying him time, boys. Let me ask you something. Does a game like that, in your opinion, for Joseph Wall do nothing but build up his confidence, like crazy? Or does he go home after the game going, oh, my God, I got to be so good for these guys. I'm not going to make it, boys. It's only November here. I can't play like this every game. I don't know.

That's a good question for Valley. I don't know. That's a, I have no idea. He really, what's funny is he really presents as a guy who. who's, you know, pretty at peace with things and things roll off his back and whatever. But we know that that's not the case. So I don't know.

I don't know when he goes home if he's like, okay, they can't ask me to do this every night or what. But I mean, if you look at what they want to be, it's something close to we need him to play well. It's win the high danger chance battle, get good goaltending. Clutch scores. What's the score last night if like, I don't know. Caden Primos.

Or Matt Murray from high. Yeah. five one six or seven one seven one it's like if you rerun that game there's not many games where the Leafs come out on top they got the gift from Kent Johnson going offside one of the stupidest off sides I've ever witnessed like lazy dumb lazy selfish stop stop stop there's a guy that shouldn't sleep well last night you're not racing to get anywhere you're ahead of the D still you're still above you know what that is that's just the guy that wants to score so bad yeah

You're not helping the team That was wild, offside. Also, if Adam Fantilly played against at least every game, he'd be on Team Canada. Oh, boy. Oh, my God. Adam Fantilly and Zach Warnski are the fastest kids in the world. Have we played Barubi on Joseph Wall?

There's a couple ones on Joseph Wall. The one I like the best. Let me grab here. Is still in confidence or? Yeah, the clip seven, please. Well, it definitely does give the team confidence for sure and knowing that he's back there doing his job above and beyond making the saves

and giving us an opportunity to win a game kind of like just rubs it just goes down on the team and gives you more confidence to do things up the ice yeah you have a good goal you play a little differently but what is the Microsoft sound we're playing

before it's elevator music it's a nice touch I think that might be Derek you guys get to be I like it I think it was here. You're backing up the truck. Was it you guys yesterday that talked about...

I wasn't here yesterday. Or J.B.U. I don't know. Probably. Friday, Saturday. Uh-huh. Wall. Which game? I go Hill to be first.

I think I go Hill to be first, too. You know, for Wool, a couple days. You? I'd be tempted for sure to save Joseph for Saturday night. Talking in Canada. Well, just... Uh, if they split the next two games, more winnable game,

like you should be attacking, I think, Saturday night against Pittsburgh, more so. Like, I don't want to say a scheduled loss against Tom Wilson, but that's the tougher game, even for Joseph Wall. I can't help but notice that, uh, Barubi was asked about, uh, yeah, and should he play like Tom Wilson? I guess you asked us to be inspired by something.

Let me hear it. Fox? Yeah. The Fox. Let me hear it. Clip nine. Then let's get out of here. Matthew and I's could use Tom Wilson a little bit as a blueprint of for maybe what he could grow into.

Definitely, for sure. You know, I think they're different, though. Tom Wilson came in the league as more of, I wouldn't say an enforcer, but that was a different. big part of him, his identity, right, coming out of junior hockey. You know, Nizzi comes out of college hockey, it's a different mindset, right? But yes, for sure, he can be that type of player to a certain extent, in my opinion. One guy's Canadian, one guy's married. One guy's a college hockey player.

One guy wore a cage all through his minor hockey, and one guy didn't. One guy was as skilled as anybody, right? Was he Hobie Baker kind of material? Is the best player and the best team in the country Or one of the best teams The best team in the country And there was zero There was zero

Intimidation in his game Coming out of college Now to flip that switch Into the NHL Oh man Quickly before we go Who wants to win a bunch of cash While doing the best thing this holiday season

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please play responsibly, standard message and data rates may apply. Lottery license, R-A-F-151-8-4-1-0. You know, it's funny is when you play college hockey, you don't know which of your teammates are willing to play like that, like to play. I remember by Justin Johnson that knocked out John Scott. Yeah. He was, you know, in college, he's good hands. Yeah. He'd be forecheck, whatever. And then we got,

all right, now you're a pro player. And he was just like, who'll fight me? It's like, I'm not wearing a visor anymore. You were always like that? I didn't know you were always like that. Okay, we'll take a quick break when we return. Jimmy Ralph. Toronto Maple Leaf Radio Color Analyst is next. You're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Bourne. Hey, it's Aalish Forafar.

And I'm Justin Cuthbert. Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. It's the fan free game. 6 p.m. weekdays on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, the fan, and wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the program. Nick Kippress, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee, leave our edition. A few minutes. We'll welcome in Jim Ralph.

Oh, maybe not a few minutes. Maybe a few seconds. Ralphie, how are you, pal? That wasn't much of an introduction. Did I score my only pro hat trick against you? Do you want me to introduce that? But like I said, it was the second time I was in

that you scored the third one. Hershey Park Arena. Is that right? Toronto. What were you guys? New Market Saints? Oh, is that? Yeah, well, I played for more than one team. So you're going to have to, you're going to jog your memory.

You have to play through that game. Ralphie, we were just talking about, you know, healthy scratches and who should come in and who should come out. You know, you've covered this team for a lot of years. Does it feel like they are really short on their lineups in terms of giving guys ample time to, to gel or does it feel to you like it's, the lineup changes are more than what even you've been accustomed to following this team for so long? Well, you know, I was thinking about that kipper and I was going back to when, you know, Martin and Matthew started playing together and then it was who do you get to play with them on the wing?

And then finally it was Zach Hyman that merged as a perfect hit. Then he leaves and it took a while to find Michael Bunting that bite. And, you know, you remember that stretch when they went from Nick Ritchie to Joe Thornton to all kinds of guys, you know, trying to fit, you know, be in that line. So it feels like, especially in the top six, that's the experiment that's still going on, you know, who's, it looks like Easton Cowan is fit in nicely with Tavares and Nylander, but you're still searching for, you know, whether it was Machelli or whether it was Nick Robertson had an opportunity, Max Stomi. last night. That seems to be the one spot that I think is the biggest concern is to try to plug and play somebody that's going to have some sort of chemistry. You're not going to replace what you lost in the off season. But to me, the whole experiment revolves around that spot. And, you know, somebody gets a chance there and then the other guys, are they

bottom six forwards? You know, Robertson, I think back-to-back games was around 10 minutes, which I think you guys might agree isn't ideal for a guy that you want to offer. Yeah, so, you know, we were sitting here at the break just chatting about Matthews and where we think he's at because obviously how he plays

has a big influence on how that guy beside him does. What are your, what's your take on how he looked in his return, how he's looked this year, and where he's going? Yeah, I think he was solid. Last time, I mean, very noticeable.

And, you know, I think he had three shots, three messes. So you, but he's, he's going to have to get back to that 40, 50 goal pace. I think that they got a chance of climbing up the standings and getting in. And I don't, I don't think we've seen, you know, the Austin Matthews that we had a couple of years ago, the 69 goal guy. So it's a process, but like I said, I mean, it's going to be more difficult without Barner there to set them up.

I think, you know, and if Matthew Nyes was battling an injury before he got hurt, that plays into it as well. But I do think, you know, there's more there, and hopefully we're going to see it if he's helping. You're listening to Radio Color Analyst for the Toronto Maple Leaf's Jim Ralph. So, Ralph, you touched on it in terms of a couple of different looks for Matthews. And last night it was domy, and there seemed to be some giving goes, and they got the puck to the net, and there was some, you know,

there was a little bit of chemistry, at least going on there. Max gives up the puck on a key goal, something that I think Broby's seen before. There is a feeling that he may be the next healthy scratch tomorrow against Washington. You think that's something that like Austin's frustrated with or is it just in today's world? You just got to accept what happens from a day-to-day basis. basis here because they'll continue to search.

I imagine Austin probably is getting a little frustrated, but that's just my opinion. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I think that's fair, Kippert. And, you know, I think, you know, sitting back and being the Monday morning quarterback, you could say that maybe ideally, you're not going to get the playmaking skill,

but Bobby McMahon, he's one guy that I think you expect, more from this year to maybe, you know, knock on the door of a 25, 30 goal season. But, you know, that would be a great line as far as having, you know, size. McMan's got speed

and they've got some finish. But, you know, that hasn't worked. Because you would think on the cycle, on the foreshack, they'd be dynamite as a three-so. So it's, I agree with you. I think there's probably some frustration that nothing

is quick just yet. Like we said, it's just been, you know, the last three or four games that Easton Cowan has found himself. And I saw with the Bars and Nylander. But, yeah, the search for that, you know, the right side of the Matthews line. I think it's frustrating and probably frustrating that they haven't had, you know, any, you know, four or five game run of success. So one of the things that people seem positive about this leaves team, and there are some things to be positive about. You get the goaltender back and he looks good. You get the three players back.

you get two points. That's great. One of the big ones, though, is Cowan's performance. You know, this guy seems to be making his line better, whoever he plays with. They give him more opportunity. He seems to be, he's grown since we've seen him in preseason this year. Are you surprised to see how important he's become already for the Leafs?

Yeah. And, I mean, a lot of it's opportunity. I will make the bold prediction that he's not going to equal Kipper's Hattrick totals in the American League. I gotcha. Yeah, and really it's been a jump where it was 13, 14 minutes. I think he was 18 last night. He was, I think, 20 at home against Columbus. So, you know, it's one of those guys where he's earned the ice time.

And, you know, now the minutes are starting to show us. So, you know, it was out of necessity that they had to call him up. But, you know, you'd give a guy all the credit in the world for making the most of an opportunity. And you can hear after a game, it's great group. They just speaks glowingly about him. And it's not about the offense. It's how our party works,

how he finishes checks. And the legs are always moving. So, yeah, I'm surprised by the turnaround. But like I said, when you look at all the guys that are out of the lineup, he was able, unlike some other players, he was able to take the extra minutes

and the opportunity and turn it into a huge positive. I kind of phrase this the same way I did for Justin and Sam in terms of Joseph Wall and what he did last night and what it does to him moving forward either gives him abundance of confidence going forward or does he focus on how much this team needs of me

and the level I need to provide to give us a chance Yeah, you know what, that's a slippery slope, isn't it? Because I don't think you can expect 36 saves and one goal against every night. I agree with Brulet postgame where he said that, like, I thought the first two periods, they were pretty good in front of them, didn't give up a whole lot. And then in the third period, it was like that patient started to wear famine. Guys were starting to get caught deep and try to force passes that were getting picked off and leading

thought of man rushes. I think the shots were 14 to 6 or something in the third. And those were the games last year, guys, that they were winning regularly. And I went back and did the math.

I think last night was just the fifth time all year. They've given up two or less in 23 games. And last year at this point, it was 12 games, two goals against or less. So I think the big thing is,

I mean, the goal thing hasn't been as solid, but the play in front of them to me has been the most. surprising thing is how much more they've been asking from their goal tenders. So, you know, hopefully the positive that comes out of it

is played games like you did last year where you're comfortable in one, one, one, two, two games and not try to force it and gamble and try to open it up. You know, maybe that's what comes out of it. Even though ultimately, you know, Wall was the reason you won that game.

So, you know, it ends up being a super close game. Part of the reason you know, Leifes don't score on the power You could say Leifes don't score on the power play a lot of times this year, but we did see them roll out a five forward power play, which, you know, we haven't seen since the Mitch Marner quarterbacked version, Austin Matthews at the head of it last night. What are your thoughts on the likelihood of this being something that's not just a flash in the pan for the team? Well, I would say I like it probably as much as Joseph Walrus. By the way, a flash in the pan implies a flash. There was no flash.

No, and I mean, I said to Joe, I said after the first time I tried it, I said, oh, my God. Like, it's, you know, you just want someone, I think, back there that's a little stronger, skating backwards, and Matthew's on the one chance. They did a good job of staying back and dove to try to block the paths. But it's, you know, somebody's got to be the reliable one and stay back. I mean, I think it's great to push for offense, but you see so many teams now that are just ready to go short-handed, you know, that they're not just dumping it down the ice.

They're going to take off and try to do something. And, yeah, I'm personally, I'm a huge fan of it. It'd be great if they went, you know, three-for-three in the power play, then I'd probably be whistling in a different tune. But I just think that it's almost like pulling the goalie in the last minute of the game. You know what the reward is that you need, but there's a lot of risk that goes with it. You got a busy weekend here, Ralphie, starting tomorrow night, 5 p.m. Eastern, Maple Leafs and the Washington Capitals. Sure, appreciate you stopping by, pal. Thanks for doing

this. Yeah, I actually see my convent. I don't work on Black Friday in the state. You're too busy shopping for sales. Thanks for doing this. online hockey tournament video game. Perfect. Thanks, boys. We'll see you soon. Jim Ralph. Color analyst, Toronto Maple Police.

Okay, let's go to Craig Barrowby on the 5-4 power play. Play the second one of those, Derek. The second 5-4 powerplay clip. Clip five. There was a certain point before Matthews got hurt where, you know, we rolled him up top. And, you know, I just like the, The quickness that he can play up there and the shot, definitely, you know, that shot going to the net with numbers there.

And he distributes the puck well, too. He moves it quick. So that was a thought process, similar to last year, you know, similar to last year. Play clip six now, Derek. With some good stuff, but, you know, we gave up that rush, you know, like we've got to be better there. You know, we can't dive in. We've got to get back and help out. You know, we can't do that.

That's just we can't make that play. But I thought there were some good things. I think that there was opportunities in the second period on the power play we had that. We rolled into the middle there. And I don't, you know, we just, we're not like looking to shoot right away. You know, we're not looking to it off these plays attack and shoot. We're kind of looking for a better play at times and we don't need to. I agree with that.

You want to see it this weekend? I do. Their power play stinks, man. There's nothing going on. It's not like the other way. It was like the world on fire. But like giving up opportunities for short-handed goals, I don't need that. No, of course.

But like anything, that was the first time they've tried it. They gave up one rush against. And everyone's like, this thing's going to be, you know, like, okay. Well, let's try game two. Let's try another couple of power plays. This is how, this is actually, and I'll blame the two of you specifically. Yes, please. For when hockey.

people are like why do they do the drop they why do they do it's like if they try something different and it doesn't work yeah people go this is the dumbest thing i've ever seen it's like you need to try some things like Fraser minton last night for the Boston ruins right toe dragging he turns the puck over we're screaming at him listen I'll say a Alex I'm sorry a Fraser Mitten deep toe drag to an Alex Steve's tap in is not what I had on my bingo card for the Bruins you's second of the night Alex Steves is like, how many games he play here? 15, I couldn't tell you one moment.

And now he's lightened it up for the bruce. Like, what the hell's going on here? But he's, he's a 12th, 14th forward in the national hockey league. Yeah. Right? Yes. Yeah. And while the Leafs were winning the division quality team, too.

I'd rather have kept Michael Amadio or Jared McCann or. Yeah. Now we're talking about. You know, like there's a much longer list of people before I'm in Alex Stevens. Do I just want to be clear? totally in favor of five forwards and do it again. Yes, great. It's better.

It looked a lot better in moments yesterday than anything else did. I at least trust that Matthews will make the right play. Yeah. You know? Can you defend? That's going to be another story, but, well, I think he'll be okay. Will either of the flank guys be willing to help defend is the next question. Put Cowan on a flank.

Cowan will play D. All right. Okay, you guys want me over. They're asking him to do everything else. Might as well. We'll look at it. We'll look at it another game. Our thanks to Jim Ralph momentarily

joining us. We go national next. What do we have to be thankful for, Sammy? Terry Ryan as well from Shoresy.