Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Home and Away with Mats Sundin

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne are joined in-studio by Maple Leafs legend and Hockey Hall of Famer Mats Sundin to chat about his journey writing his biography and reliving parts of his career, becoming Toronto's captain, the relationship between a head coach and a captain, the evolution of Swedish hockey players and the potential of a return to the NHL in some capacity. Then, Kyper, Bourne and Sam McKee look back at Toronto Maple Leafs vs. New York Rangers on Saturday - Anthony Stolarz's usage, a lack of individual quickness, their continuing early-season struggles on the power-play, a centre line switch between Max Domi and John Tavares and whether Max Pacioretty can find a consistent role.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

yep i am going to the game welcome into the real kipper and born show nick kiprios justin bourne sammy mckee derek brandeo jake the snake schultz kicking it off right this week we're going straight to a guest not just just any guest. No. Hall of Famer, Leaf great. Former teammate of mine. Stood up at my wedding. How nice was that? Is that right? That's incredible.

Welcome to the show. Welcome in. And Leaf legend, Matt Sundin. Hey. Nice. Not just any Matt Sundin. Author. Oh.

Matt Sundin. Here it is. Ready? October 22nd is the official sale. Tomorrow it kicks off. It'll be officially on sale for you. Home and Away by Matt Sundin with Amy Stewart. Matt, welcome to the show, man.

How are you? Very good. This coffee is too hot. Too hot and not good. Sorry about that. Well, listen, it's not as hot as you are right now because you are very much in demand, my friend. First of all, like, author, how does that sound?

I know Hall of Famer. I know Leaf Great. I know top scorers. Amy Stewart is the real author, but I did write some of the stuff myself, but it's fun. And I, you know, said if I don't do the book we started last summer, it's never going to happen.

And I get no respect at home from my kids anymore. And I figure if they can read this book, they're going to say, you know, he was a pretty good hockey player. Like in three or five years. They don't care at all. They don't ask now. No. Did you find it almost therapeutic to go through

the past and sort of uh take a i guess a zoomed out look at your life it was and and uh you know we are a little wiser as we get older and uh just looking back when you have your own kids looking back at childhood what my parents did for me and my brothers. And if I do half of the stuff they do now, I'm going to do well. So I was very fortunate. And you realize nowadays not everybody gets that kind of support. We were very fortunate. We talk about that in the upbringing. One of the most common questions I get is people think there's a secret sauce

to being a hockey player or have a career that I had. And it's not really. So we try to reflect on that. And then also, obviously, my 13 years with the Leafs, being the captain for 11 years, there's a lot of stuff with coaches and things you go through. But I think that, you know, fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs and people that care about the team will find interesting.

So we decided to do it. We know you're on on a tight schedule here and we only have you for a few minutes so let's just talk a little bit about uh you know some key points in the book and one of them is around the captaincy of being a Toronto Maple Leaf and what it means not only for you but the history of it uh it came to light once again this summer when they made the change from john tavarez to austin matthews but uh uh you know i i did find it fascinating reading your story about you know how borya salming great leaf um swedish uh leader for for all of us uh in in that generation really influenced you the most with your decision.

Now, I knew of Boria growing up as one of my heroes as well, but I always thought when Boria turned down the captaincy, it was because he wasn't in a

position to really lead off the ice. I knew Boria liked to have a good time, and maybe that held him back a little bit. But it didn't, because in your book, I learned that he ultimately didn't take it because he never saw himself as a captain based on the fact that he wasn't from here. Yeah, and you're right. captain based on the fact that he wasn't from here. Yeah. Yeah.

And you're right. And he was the first guy I called when the Leafs asked me, you know, we want you to be the captain for the Toronto Maple Leafs. I immediately called Borea and he said right away, well, you have to accept it. I said, why is that? And he said, you know, it's such a, you know, the biggest hockey franchise in the world.

Being the captain for the Toronto Maple Leafs is such an honorable role to have, even though it's just a letter stitch on your sweater, but it means so much. And he also regretted not accepting the captaincy. So it was an easy decision for me after talking to Borey. And how did that change how you viewed yourself or the pressure you know and I ask you that in light of looking at Toronto's situation with Tavares having it then Matthews how does it change your day-to-day as an athlete with the Leafs? Well I was fortunate in my career I play you know, Joe Sackick, great captain, great leader, Doug Gilmore,

you know, Nicholas Lidster, my play with, he was assistant for Detroit. He was the captain when they won the Stanley Cup, the first, I think, European captain to win the Stanley Cup. And all those guys, all great leaders lead by example. And I i i think i knew and i i was a captain from a 10 12 years of age i enjoyed feeling like i like i got more responsibility it made me a better player a lot of guys don't want that i understand that but for me it always been there that i felt that i performed better feeling that i had a little bigger responsibility. And so it made me a better player. What about dealing with the media? Because unlike anywhere else,

with maybe the exception of Montreal, but was it always in your back of your mind and even Boreas, knowing what kind of attention the players get, particularly the ones that wear the C in this town and how no player should ever take it lightly. And I think your line in the book was, when it comes to the Toronto media,

that understanding that, I think it was, panic is good for their business. Which pretty much sums up our show with Sammy McKee. That's the tagline of our show. No, but I think, and I think all players eventually have to understand, too, that over a long season, I don't care if you're the Stanley Cup winner at the end of the year or not or missing the playoffs, all teams go through adversity, right?

And all teams are going to have losing streaks and things are not going the way you should. But in Toronto, it on almost an on everyday basis it's different than playing for Carolina or Tampa where you can go a few weeks and teams are struggling and no one really is that worried about it but in a great market like Toronto where you have the fans so committed to the team they care about the team and media are reporting about it it is different but I think my strategy was i think the truth is somewhere in the middle right and sometimes the media portrays like this team will

win the stanley cup this year because they're that great or even even uh you know like like you guys are saying the panic and and team is not as good as we're hoping they're not going to win stanley cup so i think you just have to realize that and have that relationship to keep sane and not worry about what's going on in the media on an everyday basis. Yeah. I'd like to hear a little bit about being a Swedish player in the NHL. Having played hockey enough, I know that the Swedish guys tend to go to dinner together. And often most of them, I think, go home sweden after their careers and remain tied to home um you know even more so than

i think a lot of north american players who move around and explain that connection i guess well for me i think it was important to make sure that even we had a lot of swedish teammates but i want to make sure that we don't just hang the Swedes together or whatever you guys, Canadians, Russians. I mean, we have so many different nationalities, and that's the way it is all around the league. And most players went home for the summertime, I think. And if you played in Toronto, it was a good break.

You don't see your family and friends over the whole winter. But Swedish players, I mean, when I broke into the league, I think there were 17, 18 Swedish players in the league. And today it's over 100. Some of them have very big roles in the league. There's a lot of captains out there. So Swedish hockey, and I think Boris Salming was the guy that really paved the way to realize NHL management

realized you know what Swedish players can can handle the the North American game that is more intense on the big guy's surface so yeah we're joined by Matt Sundin Hockey Hall of Fame relief great in studio and the book is called Home and Away with Amy Stewart. Officially on sale tomorrow. So grab your copy. Christmas is coming. It's a great read. Again, enjoyed a lot of parts of it, including the time that Ty tried to bluff his way onto your line.

And Pat Quinn called you over and said, so I hear you want Ty on your line. I said, no. No. Oh. What happened there? Ty telling the coach? Pat shook his head there and, all right, let's start practice.

Just before the practice started, we're skating around the rink, and Pat, can I talk to you? I said, sure. He said, you want to play with Ty? with ty but no i i didn't think so it was in my office yeah he's gonna kill me now when i see him oh yeah for sure it's in the book too yeah me too um just in terms of that whole relationship uh even with pat quinn right as a captain and and now we're seeing craig barubi and maybe some similarities between barubi and and pat where they're not long on long-winded answers but they're they're short to the point um just in terms of now austin have you talked

to austin about captaincy at all has he come to you for advice what would you say to him because there is a fine line matt where you you don't want to change too much but you have to change enough so you show that it was worthy of the decision is that fair to say yeah you know i would say pat burns and pat were pat quinn were both you know they had their presence in the room, right? They came in. They didn't have to say anything. I think Craig Berube has the same thing. And I agree with you that the relationship between the captain

and the coach is good. The coach wants to get a feel for what's going on in the group and what things do we have to change and what things are doing well. And to me, I haven't talked to Austin about the captaincy, but I watch him and he's, you know, as good as a person off the ice, as he is on the ice. You know, he's one of the best players in the league. And he is a leader and the guys in the room are going to follow him.

And for him, just keep playing the way you have. And you look at all the great leaders, you know, names, Joe Sackick, the Gilmores, Nicholas Lidstrom, Steve Eisenman, Scott Niedermeyer, all lead by example. Hard-working guys. They do what they're supposed to do on the ice and the rest of the group's going to follow them.

So he's going to do great. And I do remember that for sure, that your number one responsibility as a captain is to go out there and lead by example. But, you know, looking back at your career, was there times maybe in certain areas that you thought maybe, man, if I can go back and do it all over again, I would have said this or done that or been more involved, less involved?

I got criticized. And, you know, in your prime, obviously, you sign long-term deals. You're in your prime, and the team wants to extend your contracts and all that. So, and maybe it's something Swedish, but obviously you also, and I got reminded of that. Like, you have power right now to actually say, I think we need these things assets to be able

to contend for a Stanley Cup i wasn't very vocal but i also always thought that my job as a captain is to be as good as i can be myself try to get this team to be as good as we can be on the ice and you know the chain of command is is you know precedent down to the general managers and coaches and all that so i didn't get involved a lot with that. And I reflect on it. I wonder if it would have changed anything in a big way. So there's different ideas about that. So, like, you know, you're talking about maybe influencing things

beyond your actual job, but you recognize that you had a voice to have some say in those areas. Do you feel now, like, is there more you would want to do in the league in retirement? I know that's a roundabout way of getting to it, but... Yeah, we'll see. I mean, we'll see eventually in the future. I think, I mean, we live in Sweden right now,

and I have family and kids. It was very nice to get invited by Bradford Living to training camp this year, three weeks back, to be a little closer to the group and the guys. So we'll see what happens in the future. And just overall, from what you've watched so far, you do get a different feel for this club in the last 12 months? Yeah, it was really nice to be close to the guys during training camp. And I'm very impressed with everything

with the Toronto Maple Leafs. I think they've made some great additions on the fence. I think their goaltending looks great. Forwards, we know they're elite in the league. So I'm very excited. I think the Toronto Maple Leafs fans should be very excited for this season. I have great expectations for this team.

Matt, I know we have to let you go in a minute or two, but just want to ask you about being Kipper's teammates. You guys ever fight in practice or anything? I have a memory from Nick Kipper. Oh, boy. My first year, actually.

And he played for Hartford Whalers. And I skated by the bench and he says, I can't even say it here. He gave me one of the first and it actually, I was 19 years old and I still remember it.

He did. He struggled with that a little bit. Exactly. He gave me a compliment. And he remembers himself. He remembers himself. And then he ended up teammates and made it work. I thought this guy, this 19-year-old is going to embarrass me.

So I better get into his kitchen real quick here. Get in a shot early. That's the way it goes sometimes. All right, well, listen, Matt, we know you're off running a few more appearances. Sure, we'll see you at the game tonight, but best of luck with home and away, and thanks for coming in, pal.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk Rangers and the Leafs Saturday night as we go into tonight's contest against Tampa Bay. You are watching and listening to Real Kipper and Bourne. Back after these words. Hey, it's Ben Ennis.

And I'm Brent Gunning. We got you covered on all things Leafs, Raptors, and Blue Jays every weekday morning, 6 to 9. It's the Fan Morning Show. Sportsnet 590 The Fan and wherever you get your podcasts. All right. I think the hamster fell off the wheel upstairs. There's a lot more intro lead-in than I'm used to.

Our thanks to Leaf great Matt Sundin in studio. If you're just joining us now, give us a download and catch the first 15, 18 minutes of our show with Matt Sundin. Terrific. And I'm sorry, Sammy, because, you know, through my world-renowned research to get ready for the show, I had forgotten that, like, you're Gaga over Matt Sundin.

Yeah. But you got your picture with him, right? We took the picture together, which is great. And I'm really happy you forgot that because I know you well. And you would have embarrassed me, for sure. Like a mom or a dad. Like, is that the girl you like? You definitely would have embarrassed me. So I'm happy that mom or a dad being like, is that the girl you like? You definitely would have embarrassed me.

So I'm happy that, listen. I feel like I've lost a moment. You did this one. Yeah. I did. Listen, when he came here, I shook his hand. I said, hey, Matt, it's nice to meet you. I made him laugh a little bit, and then we're good to go.

It's all that. Did you tickle him? No. I made a line about it being like a deposition in here, and he smiled and laughed. I'm like, well, I'm good. Time to leave the room. There we go.

All right, here we go. Crash course on Saturday night. Once again, welcome to the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Justin Bourne, Sammy McKenna, Kip Rios, Leaf Edition, our Saturday night Leafs drop a 4-1 loss to the Rangers. Didn't feel like a 4-1 loss, right? With a minute and 20 to go a shot away from tying the the game leaves fall a little bit short here but still some good vibes i think going

into a another signature game against tampa bay tonight yeah you know the one takeaway i have from five games you guys used to do five-game blocks, did you not, when you were a player, Kip? That's right. You feel really good about the team after five games. They lose that one, it's a close game against a good team, but if Willie shoots a couple in, he had tons of chances, it might be a different outcome.

In all, I didn't think they got outplayed. Pretty good hockey game. Didn't really change my view of the team much, except this is a team that can hang with pretty much anyone yeah i love that game on saturday like it just you know i think there's things that we can nitpick here and we will but generally i think that's an awesome hockey game between two of the sort of you know you talk about the the league the elite league those are two of the teams that are gonna matter right they're gonna be teams that are quote unquote i use this word very lightly, contenders.

And the Leafs, you know, they could be one of them if things broke right. And it just looked like that to me. They're two really good teams. Okay, let's go to our first Tippers Clipper of the Week with Craig Berube on his overview Saturday night. Clip one. couldn't find the back of the net you know we had opportunities um yeah i think we can do a better job of taking his eyes away a little bit more and um but we had a lot of looks just we didn't go in and then we got to execute better in the third period in the power play in the six on five sorry boys my my headphone wasn't corrected i thought derrick was really letting us down

silence there sorry sorry to everybody that was my fault it's funny when um a guy you know it can sound like being simple or something but that's a pretty simple evaluation right like you know they didn't go in next time get in his eyes a little bit more and hope it does it's funny like you know i'm not a goaltending expert by any stretch of the imagination people would call me the opposite actually i just blame them for everything but i think anthony stoller has had a wonderful start to the season yeah like he's been excellent and like he's been one of the best goalies in the league could not ask for anything more but you watch but you watch a sterk and you're like okay that's the mcdavid of goalies that's like the level up of like that is what the best goalie in the league looks like and i thought he did look like that like i thought he was unbelievable he kept them

in the game yeah like a kneelander has a shot uh in the third period where usually guys rip at high glove and he went low glove and like sturgeon can drop it and get a piece so he goes to his other side and it's like he's a good goalie. But yeah, Stoller, to your point, statistically, one of the best in the league by actual goals to expected goals. Like taking goals away from the opposition, he's been awesome. No-brainer then. Goes right back at it against Tampa Bay.

Is that too much for you? No, I think it's the right decision because this is a game that you... This is a division game. You need your best goalie, and he is today their best goalie by a country mile. And then, you know, worry about Columbus uh columbus yeah after tonight yeah so curious to see if we get the hill to beast or if joe wool is ready to go by then um uh ruby alluded to it today that

it's a possibility for tomorrow for wool for ball but it was a possibility it was going to start game i'd probably go to Hildeby tomorrow night. Just give him more time. Just give him more reps. Give him more of a feel here. But then you go to Hildeby on Tuesday, and then Stolarz is ready for Thursday by then. It's like, I kind of like this.

I kind of want to see him keep going, right? He's been awesome. Yeah. I'd give him a break, Stolarz, by Thursday. Yeah. I would. Yeah. I would. Yeah. Right?

There's no reason to start making him feel like, hey, you could get 50 or 60 today. But, like, you've got this depth. You've got to lean towards it. Yeah. So that's the way I would play it out. Now, you know, as much as we feel like that was a game that, on a couple of bounces for willie or or austin that the leafs could have come out on top there is a sense there's a there's a

trend going on right now much like we've seen in the playoffs where it just may be good enough but you don't get a key moment on a power play. And yeah, they managed two against a very ugly Los Angeles Kings hockey club, but in one where they needed one Saturday night, they once again didn't get it. So they have had trouble scoring against the elite teams. Obviously, it's a running theme in playoffs for a while, and part of that is power play. We have Ber to talk about it why don't we play clip two and go from there well they're going to be disappointed because you know we didn't score

now there were some good looks in the power play tonight um but the the the one in the third period you know we didn't execute very well in that one our entries and we turned it over a couple times and just you know when the game's on the line right there uh you have an opportunity to tie it up we gotta have more urgency best power play chance was the one to tavara's in the slot he got off a pretty good rip rip that shisterkin caught high though yeah either all the way you're either bar down or along the ice. But, you know, he just started kind of Bernie Perron. Gave it the old Patrick Wall windmill. Yeah, a little windmill there, but he shot it in his glove. Can I ask you about the power play and what he said there

and what he's been saying from the start of training camp into the first five games of the season is urgency. He keeps saying, we got to move quicker, we got to move quicker, we've got to move quicker, we've got to move quicker. And it just, I don't think, has it? Has it looked any quicker? Then when is the message on this going to get through? Because he just keeps saying it every postgame, every pregame,

every time he talks about the power play is urgency. And there's never any urgency. I would like to see someone one touch a pass to someone else. Like it feels like everyone catches the puck, has a look. The other glaring thing right now, through five games, Marner has zero power play shots. Power play shots? Really?

Do you watch him Saturday? He's doing figure eights in a bumper position where he hardly touches the puck. He is your number one facilitator out there get him out of the bumper i'm sorry but he's lost there yeah it's not the right spot for him not even close it's actually the worst spot for him worse i'd rather see him in front of the net than in the book so maybe that has something to do with it yeah it's not helping but how are you going to shoot the puck if you don't get it but even when he gets it on the flank you know he

skates it down low and looking for something and i just would like to see a little bit more when babcock how about the rangers goal against the leafs six on five when the tick tick tick babcock was the coach of the leafs he always had martyr on the left flank shooting it into the slot like for like the high tip yeah where it was like bozak or codrey jbr was at that front they never do that kind of thing anymore like It's always perimeter based. I watch it and you see world class talent out there that they don't have world class chemistry. They don't work well together on the power play.

They don't. There's a lack of chemistry on the power play. Because they've had statistically good seasons on the power play. And I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying they have the raw talent that they can score enough goals when they have more people on the ice than the other team. But it's not working well together.

You look at the way Tampa Bay, you know, Hedman's got the right, the perfect handedness, and Kucherov, and he fakes it in to point, who's perfect in the bumper, or even the Oilers, who I know are crap this year on the power play so far, but have been historically great, there isn't that, I can't tell you this thing they do that's dangerous.

They just, it's almost like the Penguins last year, when it's like, how can you have so many good players look so neutered? Kucherov knows what he's going to do with the puck before he even gets it. And he makes the right decision. Either it's a shot, a pass, or a fake shot. But it's quick. Whatever it is, it's quick. It's quick.

He never catches it and thinks about it. And they open up seams, and they just, their timing's impeccable on when they want to put it through the seam. And the Leafs just don't have that look or that feel. Would you like to guess who's one point behind the Toronto Maple Leafs in the power play this year? Tampa Bay Lightning.

Yeah. They're 28th in the league. Is that really? They're 27th. So they're off to – The Oilers must be like 29th. Yeah, the Oilers are 30th. Yeah.

Dallas Stars, 29th. It's early here. Shocking numbers. Well, we're just historically speaking. Right. Yeah. We have lots of stuff to get to any more in the power play well wood switching up okay like i know it's something we've talked

about i know it's something that all the fans mentioned but at what point do you do two units like how much more like is it you're just going to work yourself out to where it's going to be a top 10 power play and they get hot and we're just going to work yourself out to where it's going to be a top 10 power play and they get hot and we're just going to stick with it? That's just what it's going to be? Is that the answer to my question here? Or will they ever try something different? With the exception of Tavares.

That's what I'm getting at here. Who, I'm not even counting him in this conversation. Between Willie, Marner, and Matthews, who doesn't start on the first power play i mean if you can pick them kip why can't you just say it's okay it's willie it's a minute a minute it's not a minute in a minute though it's no it's not like last night they needed a goal they're not coming off after 50 seconds so nick robertson no but in that situation you would be different right like they'd load it up that's that's what you're dealing with with a with a desperate power play

when you need a goal i don't i don't disagree i don't like the idea of one-on-one for me either just get the best guys out there i do think that matthew nyes is going to make a compelling case for himself before long to be involved and not because because I don't think Tavares is the dude around the net. He's still the dude around the net. But Matthew Nye is a get your pucks at least. Go get the puck. Win his rebounds. You know, get it in the four check so we don't get stopped up at the blue.

He's just another element that. That's so much one and done with the Leafs power play. So much one and done. Where they never win a puck to the net. If you don't have John Tavares out for a unit, either the first or the second one, well then, where's his value now? Can he play five on five now and produce?

But is the point then that you should keep him somewhere where he's ineffective because you're trying to... Well, it's supposed to be the power play. Right. It is supposed to be the power play where you can end maybe a key face-off. Oh, for him? Yeah, for him, personally. That's what you're supposed to get It's supposed to be the power play. Right. It is supposed to be the power play where you can end maybe a key face-off. Oh, for him. Yeah, for him.

You're supposed to get value out of him. Yes. I just think you're trying to get value out of your team and you need to be less concerned about what's best for him and what's best for the team. And if it's not him, then maybe he's on power play too. Your thoughts on John Saturday night

because there was a sense that he struggled, and people are like, how much slower did he get between last year and this year? And there's lots of... There's some talk about, you know, where's his fit moving forward here? Well, he's down a minute and a half per game. Which is significant.

It's a lot. Since Berube came in. So that's the new coach's call. He sees him as more of a third line guy if you look statistically at the lines the first line has been i mean wildly dominant matthew marner matthews marner and eyes have been wildly dominant uh kneelers line's been super dominant fourth line's been the best they've ever had the third line with tavarez holmberg and robertson is the only place they're getting killed they're getting killed in those minutes yeah they brought lorenz up to the third line on saturday night and put holmberg down but like two games ago the timeout it's holmberg and tavarez who are on it they're they're getting outscored something

like seven to two like there it's a problem it is the first problem the leafs has how do we figure the leafs have is how do we fix for? For the most part, Max has looked good. Don't we? Yes. Looked excellent. So that's a good sign. You keep kind of rolling without as well. If there's one knock against Max, it's the one that he's had historically.

And we saw ample example of that Saturday night on a two-on-one where there was just never a thought in his mind to shoot the puck. But Kip, you're saying that? That's the issue or whatever? And to me, it's like his offense is not a huge issue. Yes, I want him to shoot more than he passes, but I worry more about can your second line center defend like Max Domii which is to say

not great hasn't been hasn't been a problem of an issue no so you know there's a sense that maybe he's he's tidying up some things there as well he's 29 maybe he's could be a good sign moving forward but if if if he's gonna fall into that that second line he he's going to fall into that second line, he's got to start learning how to shoot a puck because there's an argument to say that that's a selfish play on his part to try to pass it back. You've got to shoot the puck. You're hurting the ball club. You're hurting your team trying to be fancy and looking for the perfect play.

You know what? I'm not even lying. The thought I had in my mind watching that two-on-one was like, I really hope Willie shoots here because Max is going to try to pass it back. I had that thought in my mind. It's like, just shoot it, Willie. He's going to pass it back to you anyway. Just fire the thing.

And he does, and it's infuriating. What's crazy is like, well, these guys on the Leafs shoot too much. It's Nylander, Tavares, Matthews. And these guys, Domi and Marner, they pass too much. And it's like, it's equally bad. Let's do both of the things. Make the best play, not the one you prefer to do. Yeah, it's so true.

It is. We have something on Willie's game. What did you think Saturday night on Ole? I think it was a typical willy game very typical so he's a game breaker he's got that skill yeah with two sticks he had his uh selective uh you know blow the zone early which he's got the credit card to do he's the best cheater in the league so i'll tell you what i didn't like when the the third empty netter or the third goal when he snapped his stick on the no no no no the pass into the middle to devaris no he went back to retrieve a puck behind the net

and uh he went in with one hand just no sense of urgency he Lost a battle and then they scored the empty net goal. It was Chris Kreider's goal. I mean, that's the part where, you know, if you can kind of clean up those little moments when you think no one's watching, you know, and you can go in there with one hand and try to poke check a puck and it's like just make sure that, you know you eliminate or it's a 50 50 but just don't allow a ranger to pass it back and then put it in an empty net because you're still in the

hockey game at 2-1 with a minute to go yeah but outside of that i mean that's nitpicking a little bit but he has his moments when he's in and out of of plays and when he's in he's all world and when he's not he's not willie let's uh let's just nabrubi uh clip eight please well that's pretty good i mean he's getting a lot of chances and he's doing a pretty good job well i talked to willie daily about just little things and things he can do better and defensively and without the puck and things like that. Just trying to, you know, again, try to get him better in certain areas like a lot of players. I talk to him daily. Daily?

Daily. Daily. I don't think the Leafs talked to Zach Hyman in five years. He just showed up and did it. It's what it's going to take. That's what I'm talking, the difference. You're trying to clean up like eight years of habits. Take time.

Bad habits. Thank you, Derek. You were my mind there. I was literally going to say that. He said that. How many times has he said that already? Yeah. The habits.

Habits. Habits. Reminds me of like my son. We're trying to get him to stop sucking his thumbs. We bought him a glove. So, you know, like a conscious. Now he's sucking a glove. Right now he's sucking.

He's not. He's not. It's worked. But we need Willie to... Now he's sucking a glove. Right, now he's sucking... He's not. He's not. It's worked. But we need Willie to get some sort of, like, defensive glove. We need some sort of thing that makes him stop doing the bad parts. I gotta tell you, I don't want Willie playing defense. I'll be the one to say it. Yeah.

I don't want him playing defense, but... Like, I want him maybe to think about it, but I want him to think about going the other way more than he's thinking about backtrack. If he's playing center, it's a completely different story. I actually think you're making a good point. Why do you have to pick one or the other? Why can't you have both? Because he's not going to be Marian Hossa.

Like, his best skills are flying off the rush, catching pucks, cheating. Like, I don't want him thinking defense. I want him to think about shooting the puck in the net. They have plenty of good players that play defense. That's just a horrible message to send. You know what? You're right. But that's how I feel about it. I'm over worrying about

Willie being this stud. It's not going to happen. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. You just have to be responsible enough where it doesn't hurt the club. Well, I have a chief tell you daily.

If that doesn't convince you and being age 28 year eight season it ain't happening yeah anyways all right what's that holmberg holmberg yeah so he's the guy that was patches is in yeah reeves is out reeves is out still in surprised by that uh no okay no because because, and that's not to take away. I thought the fourth line, again, they've been solid all season. So good. Right out of training camp. I think there's ample forecheck.

There's ample taking the man. They've been fairly responsible. They've done everything asked. So no issues there. But he can't play center like Holmberg yep can't kill penalties like Holmberg can't take a face off like Holmberg it's playing Tampa Bay it's really true Brian Reeves is the guy you have to take out yep you convinced me I didn't agree until you started talking now I do good jobip he convinced us okay but i mean there's obviously

been an issue with like holmberg in terms of his he's not played well he hasn't played well and brube mentioned it he talked about him post game i hear this clip on him okay of course yeah all right um you know i thought he you know came out in camp and had a real good camp and um you know i think you know he to me he's gotta you, battle a little bit harder for pucks, you know, and hang on to the pucks a little bit more like he was in training camp and the offensive zone and things like that and kind of just get up to speed. Looks just a little step behind maybe right now.

Too heavy? Is that possible? Like if you're looking to step behind and you put on some muscle in the offseason, he's on the wrong end of the penalty he took, the neutral zone there. He did the opposite of last year where he had a great camp and convinced everybody he was great and then has come in and hasn't been great. Then it was the opposite last year. He went down to the Marlies, played great, and Minton took a spot last year.

It's interesting. that last year went down to the Marlies. Oh, yeah. But Gray and Minton took a spot last year. Interesting. And this is now the time where you can't let your foot off the gas pedal, and he has a little bit here. Everybody's, again, on their best behavior coming out of training camp. You want to impress. New coach, new attitude, new feeling. And now you're settling in a little bit, and we're seeing maybe a few guys with their guards down a little bit.

He's one of them. I will say some of the things that Berube initially was like, you know, he liked Holmberg more than I expected him to, didn't like McMahon as much as I thought he should. Those things are kind of coming into, you know, McMahon's getting a little bit more love at home, but a little less. So where does this leave Max Pacioretty? And if we were to say that we would be five games in

and Max has been in and out of the lineup and not locked in in any particular position how surprised would you have been or is it just right exactly where it should be i wouldn't have been surprised that he was scratched twice if you told me you know nick robertson has stayed hot he's shooting a few in the net you know or holmberg is great or you know whatever else but you know the guys that he should be replacing haven't been very good and he still can't get it which i think for patch ready is a concern or at least a statement from the team that says if we're going to pay a 300 grand a game 10 and another 300 grand a game 35 we're going to need value for that money so there's

some pressure on him to have a better night tonight ro Robertson, too. How long is Nick Robertson going to not score for the team to say, yes, fine, carry on? All right, let's go to Craig Berube for Kipper's Clipper on Max Pacioretty back in the lineup. I don't know if it was a timed thing. The team was playing pretty well. We obviously didn't win last game so i'm just making a lineup change we got back-to-back games here so have an opportunity to get fresh guys in

there and keep guys fresh for the next game okay he'll be out tonight he really will not take the bait no anything it's amazing it's great like it's a clear message, you know, I think probably from upper management to him to be like, just don't say too much. Okay, if he was to take a truth pill, then what do you think he, what are you expecting him to say? A truth pill? I hear him now, and all I hear is, I don't know how this story is going to turn out. Let's just wait and see. You don't even hear Coach speak. You hear a guy telling you the hear is I don't know how this story is going to turn out. Let's just wait and see. You don't even hear Coach speak. You hear a guy telling you the truth. I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, take him in, take him out. We got a lot of games. We got a lot of yeah. But he's got to have a feeling. Right? But he'll never share that feeling with us. I'll never tell. Okay, so maybe what I'm getting at here. Here's like What would you like?

I think that you could hear that you're not hearing. never tell. Okay, so maybe what I'm getting at here... Here's, like... You're going to keep his mouth shut. What do you think that you could hear that you're not hearing? As you know, it is a very controlled message that comes out of the Toronto Maple Leafs on a lot of different stuff. Where, you know, you see the... Or what is it? The original Amazon one, where

they're really interested in narratives and all this different stuff and... I will say, Dubas and Keefe were very interested in that. I don't know if this... But that's, like, this is a new regime where it's like a new relationship where you're, like, reading into everything. You're like, what does he mean by that? What does she mean by that? It's like, maybe nothing.

Here's an idea. Maybe he's just like, you know what? You know, we lost the game, so I'm going to try a different guy. Yeah. That's it. And I have to get used to that. Yeah. So maybe I'm reading too much into what he's saying or I'm trying to, like, decipher. That's it. And I have to get used to that. So maybe I'm reading too much into what he's saying or I'm trying to decipher because it felt like whenever Keefe talked, we could read between the lines

on four different things that he said and maybe that's not the case. Anyways, that's what I'm getting at. I do believe he has an opinion on where he thinks this is all going to play out. But he's the last guy that will ever hit a microphone and think that he's teaching you something or he's the smartest in the room.

Like, you're not getting that from Craig Berube. I believe that he's got stronger opinions for sure on how this thing could look or play out, but he's way too savvy to tip his hand where Sheldon could talk himself into saying something. Correct. Do you think that there, it's pretty rare, I think,

for management to say, play this guy or don't play this guy if the coach really feels differently. Do you think this is a case where management is saying, let's at least give these other guys a chance first because we have to pay this guy if he plays a bunch. So let's just test all these guys a bit more and we'll kind of make some decisions up and save that decision they don't want to pay him 6.6 million if he's not helping so i do you think they're telling him hey i don't think they are because it's a brand new relationship and you

don't want to go to the new coach and tell him what to do? Totally. Yeah, I agree with that. But do I believe that Sheldon got told every once in a while? So-and-so's in? Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Like Jed Alexander. Who? Jed Alexander. Remember the goalie? The goalie they put in? Vaguely. Like very vaguely. And I remember Keith talking after being like, yeah, that wasn't...

I didn't do that. There's something to be said too for like Nick Robertson. Whatever you built up for him, you don't necessarily want to lose for a number of reasons. Number one is I think it would be devastating to his confidence to be a healthy scratch tonight. Number two, you could be working on something that could be bigger than just Nick for a fourth-round pick. So what's the message now?

Do you know something? What do you got? Give us the goods. What are they working on? Listen, they've got to manage money here. I heard some things. Young croc is coming back. Young crook is coming back.

So we've got to fit some money in. Yeah. So there's got to be some give. Do you think about Tavares when you talk about money in these conversations? Listen, he's at $11 million. You're locked in. There's not much there. And I think if there was going to be a –

if you're going to make a move on trying to find a different way to change the look, you would have done it by now. So – but I do think that that's a dilemma right it's not today because max is holding his own a dilly of a pickle but it's a dilly of a pickle with with john long term for this season everybody's like well is the year old you know his his deal's done after the end of this year and you don't have to worry about and that's 11 million bucks it's, okay, but did they get out of the first round this year? Did they not? And what happened?

Did Brendan Shanahan keep his job? Did he not? Right? It's like a lot of what ifs well beyond his contract being expired. Yeah, you keep him through the year and it goes wrong and you go, well, now it's gone. But you also wasted a year because you lost in game seven by a goal. And, you know, it's, sorry. Good Lord.

Sorry to bring up that vibe. No. And again, can you find, can you, can you protect John a little bit in the next little while if he continues to. 11 million dollars. Yeah, you do. I got news for you.

You do. Does it mean moving off to the wing? Does it mean nights off? That would be an idea. Like, hey, John, it's... God, that would be bad, though. Maybe a few nights off, and then in February,

you send him to Florida for a week and just tell him, get ready for the playoffs. Luckily, I wear this magical amulet. Maybe they could send him to Robida Island with his $11 million and then bring him back for the playoffs. They have that $11 million to spend. Maybe his legs will start hurting.

Is this the fake injury here? His back, his bark, and he's been carrying two amulets around his neck. October 21st was the first time we theorized about the fake injury. It is. Every other team does it. It's a distinct possibility that there could be some wear and tear on him.

He needs to get hurt in mid-February to late February. Hurt, by the way. I don't want him physically hurt. He needs to get hurt. In quotes, hurt. Yeah. So at the deadline, they could use the money. Listen, you got him to give up the C.

Dr. Sid, I need a backy out of me. He might need a backy out of me. Okay. All right. We're off. Anyways, yeah. You mentioning Robertson playing and trying to keep him playing because of potential... He's Sam Mitchell right now.

Five games. Zero. He's got zero across the board after what he did in the preseason. Is he working? Sure. Do you see how across the board after what he did in the preseason. And, like, is he working? Sure, but. Do you see how big the Rangers are? Oh, my God. On the blue line?

He is noticeable. He is. He can't. Amazing. It's hard for him to get to the net, guys. You know, and I hate to say this. He hasn't grown one inch. But he might be better for them not in these big games against Tampa and the Rangers.

It may be the nights where they've been losing to columbus and chicago that he gets you the two you need to win some regular season games i don't know okay they've been losing those games yeah last year i don't ever see a coach and general manager saying let's keep them let's keep them around for like stinky teams yeah matthews can't score against columbus so we got to keep robertson around okay we are running a time and i want to talk about Tampa Bay, Toronto tonight. Wouldn't be the show without a Coopers. No, so let's have John Cooper tell us.

Yes, on the Leafs, clip to John Cooper. It's the same cast of characters, in my opinion. They have a really good team. They're north of 100 points every single year. I know Sheldon. I know Berube. Great guys. Probably two little different styles, but they both win.

And what I noticed in the team, you look at the box score against the Rangers the other night, and it says 4-1, but clearly it was not a 4-1 game. And they've got a hell of a team. And you can tell he's, how do I say, they've got some pushback in their game, and I would expect nothing less from his coach teams. Can we get that same cast of characters drop, please?

Derek, we're going to need that for future rides. It's also good. I was just going to say, there's a man that thought about the possibility of coaching in Toronto this summer. Why is that? I think there was a message somewhere if there's any opportunity for cooper to leave tampa bay

and the answer was the answer was no yeah what that is such a thing for you to mention at 452 well he's just he's just a guy that uh i think he's a top guy let's not be ourselves the top and i'm not saying that i'm not saying... I'm not saying Berube was second here. I'm just saying that Bradtree Living left no stone unturned. That's all I'm saying. So Cooper as the coach here would have... I also think it's hilarious. The most disrespectful I've ever heard someone be

while saying that's a good team. Yeah. It's the same cast of characters. It's the same cast of characters. That is a great drop. And they'll find a way to blow in the first round. It's all draped in this like oh, they're a great team. It's the

same guys. 100 plus points. But all he's saying is it doesn't matter what they do, they can't win. Great regular season. All they do is get 100 plusplus points. That man's never said anything genuine. Did you get anything out of him on Stamkos? He did.

He talked about Stamkos. Want to hear it? We don't have a ton of time. Do we have time? We have time. With every day, it's a little less. Definitely coming into camp and not having him there, there was definitely a different feeling.

And then you just ultimately start focusing on who you have and what's going on, and then, you know, you kind of keep your eye open from afar. But it was definitely different. First time I've been at camp and he's not been there. But, you know, I've said many times it's tough losing these guys, and he's not the only one we've lost. There's a long list of guys that have hoisted the Stanley Cup

that are no longer with us, and I wish we could keep them all, but understanding it is a business for everyone at some point. But yeah, he was definitely different at the beginning of camp. Okay, we go national in a few minutes. We'll get into Stamkos and more when we return. Gary Gally up next don't go away