Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: How Swede It Is

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne & Sam McKee start with their live reaction to the first Global Series game in Sweden. Then, on William Nylander's ongoing extension negotiations, how he's played himself into a top-10 highest-paid-player position and how extending him will impact the long-term future of the Core Four. They are joined by Colby Armstrong (12:34), who discusses his experience playing in international games, the Penguins' hot stretch and Jake Guentzel's extension situation. Finally, former pro scout Jason Bukala (32:49) delves into the likelihood that the Leafs can land a defenceman from the Flames, evaluating Toronto's tradeable talent and how difficult Treliving's job will become with a depleted pool of draft picks.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

the global series is underway seems like we've waited forever and we still haven't got the leaves no not yet day five but this game is heating up boys it was It was 4-0 Ottawa. It is 4-4. Really? Yes. And we are Real Kipper and born on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6 p.m. and wherever you download your pod. And apparently there's a few people

wanting us back on YouTube. And by chance in the future if you don't catch our show live on the many platforms you can always go to youtube and pull it up from there fascinating not really no i don't know i put us everywhere i don't know figure it out i don't know so day five without the toronto maple leaf hockey you just mentioned the ottawa senators blowing a 4-0 lead. And this is after 2 if we're going to be up to date.

Yes, this is after. It's the second intermission right now. What a show for these fans overseas, though. I mean, good Lord. I saw people Googling, not Googling, but requesting the Swedish word for ass-kicking, you know, when it was 4-0, but things done changed. Nice.

All right, well, we got a terrific show for you in our Toronto Maple Leaf Hour Edition. In about seven or eight minutes, we got Colby Armstrong, former Toronto Maple Leaf, and presently co-host of Chicklets Game Notes and TV analyst for the Penguins and commercial entrepreneur pushing everything from, I don't know, meat pies to insurance. He's everywhere.

It's tough to make fun of the Desjardins commercials because they're so nice and sweet. I don't know. Have you ever met Kipper? I think you'll figure it out. But, Coldy. and sweet i don't know have you ever met kipper i think you'll figure it out but coldy that's why they they took a long pass on me doing those commercials i mean like hey kid come here get over here buy insurance are you sure you have a will and colby's so sweet he is very sweet and then uh in about half an hour we're going to welcome in jason bucala former nhl scout sports

net nhl analyst he always does a terrific job so we're going to welcome in Jason Bukala, former NHL scout, Sportsnet NHL analyst. He always does a terrific job. So we're going to get right into it on Zdorov and Tanev, possible fit for the Leafs, and where he truly sees them as a scout, and the value and what the Leafs need to give up. We'll get his thoughts a little later on in the show, but we continue to wait for the Toronto Maple Leafs in Detroit,

and we'll see if Detroit's coming into that game tomorrow afternoon, 2 o'clock Eastern puck drop. Yep. Hot or feeling like they let one slip away. Either way, you like that this is a hotly contested game, and hopefully it drains all their resources and goes to overtime and everyone pulls a hamstring or two and the leafs can you know have a have a decent go tomorrow all right uh let's start with uh willie nylander because he seems to be the uh the flavor of the week for sure over in sweden oh yes baby yes he is uh i wrote an article today my my weekly article on willie

kneelander do you have ai do it now is that what you do uh ai can't do what i do i appreciate you know where it's it's come a long way in a very short period of time but they're not the real kipper they're not no no No. No. But it is. It was a good article. Would you like to give us the premise? The premise is that whatever we thought Willie was worth as early as two months ago, and that includes the Toronto Maple Leafs who have made multiple efforts to get him signed. Now, that was my first takeaway. Sorry to interrupt you. Sure.

But my first takeaway reading your article, i think in the second or third paragraph it's like you know their first offer to neil and it was two or three million dollars light and i was like their first offer i didn't know that so since tree living has been the gm they have oh yeah they've been they would love to get him signed and you know i don't know where it begun to be honest with you. But if you're the Leafs, I think if you would have just kind of played along in the early stages of negotiations, it might have started with an eight. No, wait. Listen, just to start. You think they made him an offer that low?

I think it was really low. I don't know what the number is, but there's a few around me that say it was not anywhere near where it needed to be or at least work itself. This is when it's an advantage to have a guy like Nylander who's not

like, oh, I'm so offended, I'll leave. He's just like, no. I believe that at some point in the summer they they would have started low and then would i like to get to nine and a half nine six nine seven but where it's going now is top 10 status top 10 status top 10 status. Top 10 status? Top 10 status. In the National League.

In the National League. Do you have, I asked you earlier, do you have the list of top 10? So we do know this year, this year and next year, it will be Austin Matthews because Connor McDavid is not up. So we assume that Pettersson's

going to get a hefty raise now he's got another year before he becomes a ufa but i don't think anybody sees him passing austin matthews just yet can he deliver a stanley cup can he deliver 120 points? We know where the top three scorers in the league are right now. They're all out of Vancouver. Yeah. But he is a type of guy that if the magic continues in Vancouver, how high can he go on his next contract? But there's no question right now that the Willie Camp believes

that he can be a top-paid player between and 10 so give us give us a little background on on who's there now all right so looking at next year making sure this is next year you got matthews is number 113.25 and then you got mckinnon mcdavid panarin carlson pasternak doughty doleen tavarez marner that's your top 10 at 10.9 is mitch marner's number and somewhere in between are you the top 10 yay we did it somewhere in between i think willie sees himself now yeah okay how much more realistic is that today than it was a few months ago yeah it's not out of the question because i think if you're a free agent and there's plenty of teams who would say yeah we'll give you a you know 11 times seven

i think teams would do that in a heartbeat and the leafs obviously can do the extra year and that's big the extra year yeah the extra year is big and the other thing that's really big for the toronto maple leafs is that they can give you cash up front yeah they're not afraid to front load 15 16 million dollars and they can do uh 13 14 million dollars one lump sum yeah on a signing bonus which excites any financial advisor out there how would you ever leave your house and not just stare at your bank account the day that hits that's the feeling i would just assume that feels really those are advantages now does does that make willie and his representative lewis gross go okay then maybe we can work out a number that reflects a little bit of that upfront money. But guys, unless Willie feels very generous,

which we don't believe that's ever been the case with him from the moment he sat out on his last contract for three months, that this guy is going to give them any type of discount. So $88 million to match his jersey number number that's what you're looking at here hey you know marty's jersey number so matthews does that really matter so you know no i'm just alluding to that do you think that if they had done this in the regular season like at the start of the regular season it was nine five nine six in that range i do believe that would have been a nice number that the Leafs would be

would have been comfortable with. Okay, but I thought you meant that was what the Willie Camp would have been comfortable with. I don't know. Before the season started, I can't speak of that. So can the Leafs do it? Yes, and basically the rest of my article

is it's going to be rather it's going to be rather, you know, there's going to be a lot of juggling in terms of future contracts. And I named a handful of guys that are on the one-year deal. The issue is, though, to make up for the money that Willie's going to have, it could be just Klingberg's money alone, right?

Because he's going from seven to just give him the four. But then if that's the case, then you've eaten up all your new money coming in and you have nothing more than the same team you have now. You're just going back to last year's cap.

Like this year's cap. Well, not if you're taking Klingberg's money, then it's Klingberg's money, not the cap but then if if you're taking all of those guys back that means no raises for for anybody right and that also means we know and that also means that brody's coming off and clingberg bertuzzi brody domey samsonov, you have at 21.2. So can you bring all those guys back on new deals at the same amount of money? No. Of course not. No, but you also don't want to.

Of course not. So there's a dilemma here. Yeah. Is that you're going to have to almost think that just to get Willie back next year, that you have to weaken the rest of your lineup because you've got to replace those one-year deals and you can't necessarily replace them with the same amount of money well it's one of those things right so the cap goes up four million and a couple mil that goes to matthews you know compared to previous

years clingberg comes off you know you're looking to replace him at then minimum so you're right that doesn't make you any weaker no but you're looking to improve not just tread water you know depends what happens with a lot of these guys bertuzzi brody domey i see your point but you know the cap going up and having money coming off does give them some options you where were you taking this then what do you see is what's going to have to happen in your mind well the thing is is if you now are willing to pay Willie Nylander 11, 11 and a half, whatever that number ultimately gets to.

Oh boy. 11 and a half. Easy. 11 and a half. If I would have told you. By the end of the show, it's going to be 14. Is he past your now?

If I would have told you 11 two months ago, you would have reacted the same. 100%. No question. If it's 11, then it's where do you value now Tavares and Marner moving forward? And Marner is the tricky one. In what way?

In what way? It's like, do you keep him? Do you resign him? And if you do, what's that number? He's at 11 now. And can you afford that? 11. But you can't keep Austin, marner on a new contract willie's new contract

it would have been a year old yeah and then tavara still has next year at 11 the math doesn't add up for next year doesn't add up next year yeah right so now maybe puts marner in play a lot more if they sign this contract with Willie. We got a guest. All right. We'll pick up this conversation after we bring in Colby Armstrong, who is just. Are you ever home? Hey, look at his background. Okay, what do we have in the background?

We got beer. We got. Have we got insurance back there? Saskatchewan flag there or what thanks for dressing up for our show well yeah i'm i'm going to work tonight you know sammy's hounding me he's like hey can i get you can i get you oh my god and then two minutes ago he's like we do a zoom so i got it all done up we got the pens game tonight boys pens versus devils five in a row we got what is this over here we got me riding a eagle, carrying a Saskatchewan flag.

Shout out to everyone in Saskatchewan. All my teams over here that I played for. The city of bridges in the background. Some ocean, and then a mountain, and then a sun. Could not look any cooler, man. So, is that artwork done by your kids, or? No. This is by a world-famous local Pittsburgh guy named cody sable who's like a

speed finger painter guys this guy's unbelievable he can paint people upside down turn it over and there it is and he does it in like five minutes so wow i asked him he's a buddy of mine if he could do this and uh he got her done for me but this is where i do like podcasting and stuff so i just set up back down in here tonight you are are the co-host of Chicklets Game Notes. And you do a terrific job with the Pittsburgh Penguins. But just want to get into the Leafs with you. We do know that the Global Series is underway. Ottawa and Detroit right now going into the third here.

Just your experiences internationally over your career. Spending any time over there trying to get used to everything how big of an adjustment uh when you dealt with international play yeah it's it's a lot i think and and playing world championships twice once in moscow once in uh in switzerland um and just the time i don't i don't know what that's like for those guys i was just with the penguins on an eight-day trip out in cal, and I was dragging, man. That's tough to do, and these guys can go out there and perform and light it up. What's the score right now in that game, by the way? The last I saw was 4-4.

Yeah, it's still 4-4. 4-4, so boys are going to town over there, but the food, they're getting shown around a bunch. I'm sure it's not just for the NHL. It's not just the hockey. It's showcasing the stars and giving them experience. And, you know, a guy like Nylander, who's in his home country, and others on every team that's over there. And, you know, all the ex-superstar Swedes that are there as well.

And, you know, so it's a big event. It's a lot to take on. And I imagine it's a lot to take on while slamming in games that actually count on your schedule as well so kind of crazy it's like playing the outdoor game guys i played in that first one the first winter classic and i was like after the game i was kind of like did that really count as a real game like is that two points for real so um yeah i think it's i i think it's a lot for them to undertake with time change you know playing your game and and you know all the off ice extracurricular activities as well surrounding just the game itself or the games colby i know this is supposed to be our like

least force on the show but while we have you on i'd love to ask you about those penguins yesterday we were talking about them and they just win now you know after such a rough start what's changed there um yeah i they've been saying all along they've been saying look we we're we're close we can feel things come along they've got in a completely different bottom six they've added carlson who's you know a pretty particular player with his skill set and i think those skill guys have to feel a certain way have to understand what's going on and carlson's so automatic like he sees everybody on the ice so for him to kind of settle in and um and start to produce which he which he is right now he's he's lighting it up right now for them um has been a a big difference but it's just taking some time it's taking some time and

you know what for for everything at the start of the year when i was watching i'm going oh it doesn't look that good like what's going on here how's this going to go to them you know going on the road to california and getting on a little bit of a tear san jose hey like san jose just sparked a big 10 goal game for them just got everybody feeling good yeah just line it up with san Jose. But I think it was an opportunity for them, though, to kind of go, oh, we got to figure it out here a little bit with their back against the wall early. And then just a little bit of time as well for them to sort things out. But they look fast now. It's crazy to say, but they're playing fast.

People say they're old. People say they're slow. And I can see that. But obviously for the last four years, right, guys, watching them has been, you know, what's going on here. So right now they're playing a fast, hard, aggressive game. And, yeah, they're winning games. They're finding ways to win games as well.

We're talking to Colby Armstrong, armdog, co-host of Chicklets Game Notes. Hey, even early in their season, there are some games I didn't mind them that badly, but I thought Jari always was the second best goalie when I watched early, and now all of a sudden he's settling in as well. Yeah, yeah.

And you know what happened, Kippy? And I don't know if I've seen this from him in his time in Pittsburgh. They lost to Anaheim on a shorthanded goal in the last 12 seconds of the game before they left to California. And after that game, it was a McTavish breakaway and he buried it to, to win the game. And after the game,

he took the heat. Like he said, I gotta be better. I've never seen him do that. He just really took ownership. And in talking to Mike Sullivan, he just thinks that's just maturity with him. You know, just him, you know, stepping up in front of his teammates. I think that goes a long way with your teammates too, right?

When you take ownership and say, hey, that's on me. I got to be better. And he just got out there and played lights out. Got knocked out of a game, shared a shutout that game with Helberg, who's up here right now. But since then, he's been on fire. He leads the league with three shutouts.

You know, he's making saves when he has to. And, you know, he's kind of turned the corner and found his game. But you're right, at the start of the year, he was floundering, couldn't find his game. It was, uh-oh, what's going on? Obviously, after that new contract that they extended him with.

And, you know, right now he's riding a real nice wave, though, as his team's doing really well. And it's a lot to do with him. Yeah, Sid's on fire. Sid's on fire. Carlson's on fire. Gensel's on fire. But Tristan Jari's played really well.

Yeah, it goes a long way getting your goaltender playing well. You know, we've been sitting here discussing the Leafs as a crisis team for a lot of this year. They won a couple games last weekend. The record's starting to come around a little bit. What are your thoughts on, I would characterize it as a slow start for the Leafs. Some of the new players haven't integrated themselves all that well.

You know, what are your thoughts on what's taken them a little while to get going with this new look Leafs team? I feel like there's so much chatter around this team with physicality, right? So they go and get some guys that have a little bit of bite. And that's kind of been like a hot button issue with those players. Reeves has taken it. Domi at times has taken it. And it's situations where the L has taken it. And it's, you know, situations where, you know,

the Lilligren non-fight situation, it's just, it's crazy on one side of the things. When you've got a team that's, you know, really built for, you know, scoring and skill and offensive ability, and for it to be such a hot-button topic with the physicality part. Then we got Giordano scrapping. We got guys stepping up and guys going nuts and filling in in that area. And, you know, Giordano's a guy that's always been able to do that.

He always has. Like, where did that go? Why just now? Why couldn't he have been in the guy? I know he's a little older, but, you know, a situation where I think that's inside him and part of his game. So are they trying to figure it out still? Yeah, a little bit.

Do they struggle at times defensively? And the question mark maybe is what's in the net? I think that's going to happen. But I think they're always going to be in a conversation and a threat when you've got the stars that they have. Willie Nylander's a beast this year. Matthews is scoring like crazy. And I think that's what they have to sink their teeth in

is being that kind of team. That's just what they are. Colby, speaking of Willie Styles, And I think that's what they have to sink their teeth in is being that kind of team. That's just what they are. Colby, speaking of Willie Styles, a lot of talk here. And just prior to you coming on air, we were talking about what it could cost the Leafs to bring him back. And in Pittsburgh, you got Gensel, who's looking for a new contract as well. And he's going to be in a situation much like uh willie of uh getting a hefty raise here

where are you on both these guys both these clubs on how long they can fish before they got a cut bait with a cap that's up against it yeah yeah and that's a situation right and and i think every team's different as far as who's up who's's off the books next year, who they can afford, how these pieces are going to fit. I know Gensel kind of has a little bit of a rap going against him, right? It's always going to be that weight. Like, what can he do if he's not playing with Sidney Crosby? What kind of player is he? And that's what they'll say.

Like, they're going to say that even though he's an elite scorer, right? He's been an undercover elite scorer in this league for a number of years, but it kind of falls to the side of going, yeah, you know what? That's mostly because of Sid. I do think he's really good. I do think he's really smart. I do think he's a really good goal scorer. I think he's a crafty player that plays, I wouldn't say physical,

but he's aggressive and gets into hard areas. But in the case of Willie and Jake, the price tag, I don't know, when you're up against a cap, even the pens are fighting the cap too. They're right to the ceiling and capped out. So looking into the future, what that number is going to be, and I'm hearing Willie, what are you guys saying, 11? What are you guys saying?

That's what this guy is saying, the guy who knows stuff. I don't know stuff. We were on the Marzzi one, bud. Kippy was on the Marzzi. He had it. He had it. Kippy loves the cap. Kippy loves going for those.

But I think he's probably right. Why wouldn't you if you're Willie? He already held out to win November the one year. And, you know, for his last deal, like, look at the game he's playing. Look how important he is. He's even got a darn shorthanded goal this year. So it's, yeah, just these kind of important players that sneak up on you when you're stacked already.

And it's kind of been a situation with the Leafs forever, right? Really top-heavy. Really top-heavy with their big guys. So you look to balance that a little bit. No salary cap dealing with spitting chicklets. Is there for you? I haven't heard, but I'm sure it's internal, you know. You know how this business works, boys.

Listen, you look like a million bucks for those of you that you can watch them on our platforms. And yeah, terrific job. I don't know if maybe a pigeon would have been more suitable. You ride an Eagle. That's great. That's good. You still got it,

buddy. You still got it. Yeah. I got a lot of cancer night tonight in Pittsburgh. Hockey. I just, everybody, you know,

give some love to people in the battle. Thanks for joining us, man. Thanks, pal. Have a great night. Colby Armstrong. Hey, we got to get that finger-painting guy to do our backdrop here. What do you think? Get us painted up?

Yes. You're in? Or we can get any great two. I'll get my daughter. We've seen some awesome ones so far, right? Like McCarty had a really cool one. Yeah, good backdrop. I'm trying to think of the other ones that we've had,

but that one, I mean, Mac is just like him in front of like a blinding sun. Mac, you never know where he is. He was at Junior Soprano's house the one time. But, yeah, I like that. I love that. I appreciate a good backdrop. See, the challenge for the Leafs with the salary cap is

they're okay in two years when Tavares falls off. Yes, as soon as that 11's gone. It's next year that is the huge dilemma. It's that Minnesota Wild thing where you're short-term screwed, but you're okay after that. If you just look at the math and go backwards, it dries up real quick. Because you got Austin at 13-2-55 and then you got potentially Willie at 11. You got Tavares for 11 for two more years. You got Marner at 11-10-9 for two more years.

And then let's not forget Morgan at 7.5. That's $53 million for a cap that is at 88, which leaves you like mid-30 for 16 17 guys yeah it's truly the timing of one deal if tavara's deal ended a year sooner yeah you would be laughing so can i ask you because you've alluded to this you alluded to this i think maybe last week all the shows blend together but internally with marner and Nylander and where they're valued with the organization. And then you alluded to the fact that maybe Nylander

had nudged himself in front of Marner. You still feel that way? Well, it certainly feels like it's leaning towards that. I got to be honest with you that it just seems that Willie's hot right now and Willie's the favorite 31 flavor right now i'll take us back to some of our more intense arguments last season or whatever about mitch marner and you had mentioned at the time that there were some perceived slights about bonuses and you know the way he was handled there were some sure slights

yeah you know that he never really got off to a great start for Mitch Marner. Right. And now Willie is playing well, and they're talking about more money for him, and is he slotted in higher than him? Maybe Mitch again feels a little bit... Do you think that there is a piece of Mitch that would welcome playing somewhere else?

He loves Toronto. He's from here, and he takes great pride in that and at the end of the day no matter how sometimes you get there the most important thing is that you arrive and even when mitch marner had the 10.9 he went through a year or two where he everybody didn't think he was worth it you know you questioned his contract at 10.9 at the time i i said that he's worth his money for sure but that other people at that time like right exactly he had to really braden point signed around that time for not very much he had to like fight tooth and nail for people to believe that he was worth 10.9 and

austin's never gone through that. Willie a little bit at 6'9". Don't you remember people were screaming? It was crazy. He was awful. When he came back from signing that contract, when he missed half the year, he was so bad. And that's what really kicked that off.

There is a sense that in two years, there's going to be this boom, that the cap will continue to climb up. And in a short while, it'll be 90, 95. And whether it's Mitch Marner, whether it's Connor McDavid, Leon Dreisaitl, they're thinking now 13s, 14s, 15s. The Matthews number is going to look good. I've said that from the beginning.

It is going to look good. Yeah, for the from the beginning. It is going to look good. Yeah, for the 20 minutes it's signed for in Toronto. What do you mean? The four-year contract. It's like, yeah, it'll look good for the four years until it's 17. Four years. Yeah. But I agree with JB that it's going to look like a discount in a year or two.

So if the Leafs are not willing to take Mitch Marner on another 100-plus point season at 13-14, he can go, we believe that he can go get it somewhere else. And that's the decision that he's going to have to make in two years or the Leafs can make it for him and say, we're not going there, therefore, we're going to move you now. And whether or not he says yes or no because he has a no move is anybody's guess. But I got to ask all three, all two of you, and then I'll include myself in this.

Who would you rather have? Well, I'll answer that. Go ahead. You first. You jump. well i'll answer that go ahead oh you you first you jump my answer is tomorrow or in eight years because eight years from now when these deals are going to be still in existence i want mitch i trust that barner's gonna have longevity he's you know this elite vision he's a hockey player yeah i don't know will he's still gonna be wanting to you know drive the net and be strong and whatever in seven eight years i don't know that i still go mitch but i'll tell

you this i've seen the playoffs last couple years and i'll take the way willie's look for sure short term i might still be a willie and i look over the body of work over the last few years the one guy that's conscientious on his own zone. 100%. Never always is responsible. Penalty killer. Ice. KOI horse. Just 200 feet. I got to stick with Mitch Marner over Willie.

Yeah. I just. Listen, that's the right answer. But he's also, he is going to get paid more than him. Than Willie, I would assume. Right? But he's not going to get 11 if Willie gets 11. Oh, Mitch? Yeah. Mitch is going up. Right? He's not going to get 11 if Willie gets 11. Oh, Mitch?

Yeah. Mitch is going up. Right. So, you know, this ain't apples to apples, right? It's apples to apples plus two oranges. Both of them are going to haunt you when they leave, but they're just, to me, the upside of Marner haunting you, as I'm talking from a fan's perspective,

is a lot higher than Willie's haunt factor to me. My last line in my article today in the Toronto Star was if Kyle Dubas taught us anything on his way out, it's you can't have your cake and eat it too. Meaning that even if you found a way to sign Willie, Marner, Tavares, and Matthews moving forward, it's still too top-heavy. It still leaves you vulnerable in the back end.

It doesn't work. It didn't work, and I'll say, so I agree. You can't sit here and say, I can't sit here and say that it worked because it didn't work. I can't make that defense. I do think they got seriously screwed by the pandemic and the flat cap. I can't sit here and say that it worked because it didn't work. I can't make that defense. I do think they got seriously screwed by the pandemic and the flat cap. The idea was that when they signed all these guys to the long-term deals,

the cap goes up, you have room, you can do more things. They got in a position where they had to have shoestring guys, and it never happened for them. So it's tough to see that. I don't care. They could have seen the pandemic coming. No, they couldn't have seen the pandemic coming. They could have seen that it was coming out and you needed to move somebody,

that you didn't have to double and triple down on the four guys. You had plenty of time to not use the pandemic as an excuse and pick one, especially the last few years when you've watched it over and over again and going the imbalance just doesn't work they need a five or six million dollar defense back there i think they thought they could have afforded one who's going pick one yeah no and i i agree that listen it didn't work out in the end and were they to know that the cap was going to stay there, I bet you they would have handled things differently. They didn't.

It didn't work. So, yeah, it may come down to now having to make some sort of choice. But, yeah, tough spot. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Jason Bucala, former NHL scout, will get his thoughts on the value of Zdorov and Tanev, two names that we've heard a lot out of the Calgary Flames and the link to the Toronto Maple Leafs

through general manager Brad Treeliving and the potential of them becoming Toronto Maple Leafs. That and more when we return on The Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Diving deep into Leafs, Raptors, Jays, and NFL. The J.D. Bunkins Podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's just a lie.

All right, let's pick this up where we left it off on the Toronto Maple Leaf Hour edition of the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Let's welcome in Jason Bukla, former NHL scout, Sportsnet NHL analyst, and a very busy guy because he's watching all these games. And safe to say when you watch hockey players, it's no different than the stock market, eh? It's up, it's down, it's in the toilet.

Time to buy, time to sell. Yeah. I mean, you know. And where is the Calgary Flames in all of this? Because we saw them with a good win the other night. And, you know, there's certain markets and certain teams. You can't tip your hand too fast to the season ticket holder and just throw away the next 65 games or so.

So where do you see Calgary in specific? That blue line led with some nice pieces that Brad Treeliving could be interested in. Very uncomfortable position to be in, guys. I mean, there's obviously the slow start i mean they would have to run the table just for some perspective here they'd have to play at about a 735 clip i think between now and playoffs just to get in like if they if they decided that that was the route they were going to go you also have to figure that down the road even further you know we're building a new rink and you know when we get into the new facility you know, we're building a new rink. And, you know, when we get into the new facility, you know,

it's like a shiny new toy at the beginning. But sooner than later, when the ticket price is going to be whatever it is at that time, you know, you want to have a product on the ice that's going to fill the building. So this is a very uncomfortable position that Calgary's in. But as far as the back end goes, Kipper, I mean, obviously Tanev, obviously, you know, Zdorov, Hannafin, clearly. I think that, you know, the Leafs, we know the Leafs are swimming in these waters. You know, I understand it. You understand it.

We also understand what the fit would look like. We know it would be a good fit. But I'm having a real hard time putting the cost association together to make it fit on a variety of levels. Obviously, the salary cap's the first one, but then the cost of goods as well. And, you know, I look back even to the – it all has to do with time. You talk about stock market examples. Again, let's talk about timing. Like, in June, Montreal trades with Colorado for Alex Newhook.

I know he's not a defenseman but i'm just talking cost of goods here you know gianni fairbrother defensive prospect a 2023 first which was the 31st pick overall and a 223 second which turned out to be the 37th pick overall for alex newham so um you know that's just one example the proverov deal you know a first and a second for proverov so you know if you start to look at. The Provorov deal, you know, a first and a second for Provorov. So, you know, if you start to look at their draft capital, the Leafs, that is, even beyond, you know, their salary cap constraints or constraints,

tough, tough puzzle to piece together at this time of year. You know, we've talked about, you know, we sit here and bandy about trades because the Leafs aren't playing. It's kind of what we're doing right now. And trying to, you know, classify their different assets in terms of value. They have a first-round pick. They got Nyes as a bright young prospect, Minton, Cowan. How do you power rank their assets in terms of what they could acquire,

what they could move to acquire help? The depth of it isn't great guys like it's you know when you're taking a look at so you threw out those three names i mean i have zero appetite to trade knives right now i mean that's that's not in the that's not in the discussion minton's coming off a fantastic training camp but here's the thing with prospects and um you know i've gone through this before when we've we've traded out prospects, you know, with the teams that I've been with. And don't fall too in love with your prospects until they arrive. And then when they arrive and they have a slot and they burn the slot, now you're talking a whole different level of pedigree.

So when we're talking about the Mittens and the Calvins, they're a feel-good story for now. They're coming off great training camps. They're their feel-good story for now. They're coming off great training camps. They're their top assets. Like, if we start going down to the Nemolas of the world or the Hirvonins of the world, you know, we're really starting to get into categories that aren't going to drive value in a trade. You know, and that's no disrespect to those players. I'm just trying to compare them to the other teams out there

that are going to be shopping in the same, you know, aisle at the supermarket for these defensemen. And it's a tough spot to be in. So you're looking at, you know, at least the first while you are looking at a first round pick. That's a given. I mean, historically, we already know that that's what. And if you're trading at this time of year, it's going to be uber expensive. It's already expensive at the trade deadline. But when you start trying to make deals in November, guys, you know this. It's very expensive

to make a deal at this time of year because there's just not a lot of runway, so they're going to wait a couple weeks and the price just gets exponentially more expensive. We're talking to Jason Bukala, former NHL scout. Can you speak of it, and if I'm not mistaken, Kyle Dubas

left the Leafs with no second-round picks for three years. That sounds right. Let me just ask you, in terms of a scouting staff, a general manager, a first-round pick to a second-round pick, the gap is minimal compared to how scouts view the difference between a second round pick and a third round pick how how difficult does brad tree living's job because dubas left him with no second round picks for the next three years is my my ask i'll double down on it it's a great ask it's a

super example you know i'm looking over the grid right now kipper they also don't have their first in 25 so you know no seconds for the next three years um the third that they own this year is the islanders who have been fairly pedestrian up to this point in time. So that could qualify as a feeling, kind of like a late second, if you will. But they've got two first-round picks, 24 and 26, and they have no seconds. I mean, this is really, really difficult. I can't stress enough to everybody that this is about as weak a position you can be sitting in compared to other potential suitors for the same players. This isn't a good spot.

Imagine this. Imagine they throw it at the wall and they say, we're going to throw in our 2024 first or our 26 first. Obviously, lottery protected. But then you've got no fix in the first and the second round for the next three years. So if it doesn't go right, where are we a year from now when the three of us can be and we start having conversations if they get knocked out in the second round again? Before you jump in, is this stuff that can really damage a franchise

for the next five, ten years? Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. So I listened to Borny before you guys went to break. And, you know, here's where I'm conflicted. Because, yes, there was a pandemic. Yes, it went flat cap. There's a lot of things that were out of control, humanly impossible to predict. Let's just say that. Okay. that even in a perfect world if the cap would have gone up to a certain level i'm suggesting to you guys that you still like money's money but you're so top heavy with where you spent all your dollars to plane it out all over the roster it makes it extremely difficult to piece this together so kipper they are as close to being really good and as close to potentially falling off a cliff for five years.

It's a really tight rope they're walking right there. The one thing I wanted to, in hearing you talk about this, is does it hinder your ability to get and keep good scouts? If you're trying to hire me and I'm a scout and I look at what you got and I go, ah, I don't think I want to want to you know maybe this isn't the place for me would that affect your ability to hire good people not not at all no no it's like you know you you guys have been in the game at the highest level it's an honor to be part of it right so i don't know a single scout pounding the pavement who says geez i'm on a fix i don't want to go there. The reason is there's too much competition for these jobs.

Now, I will say this, though. The flip side, the Leafs pro scouting department is pretty lean. And when you don't have picks and you're talking cap and you're talking about asset management and having to maybe find a college guy on the cheap or find a guy in europe like right now when they're in sweden it's not just about dinners and parties like trust me their staff that's over there they're looking at games as well like they're they're touring around

doing some things and we just came out of the pariah of the cop and some other different tournaments that have gone on over there at that international break time yeah so uh the pro scouts it puts an enormous amount of pressure on them. Hey, Jason, last week, speaking of Zdorov, him and his agent strategically leaked out the information while in Toronto. Never seen that before. What does that do to a management, a general manager and his staff, when you hear that? I think it makes them cringe on both sides so in a perfect world uh the flames and the leafs

let's just assume they were already having discussions ahead of that being leaked out to the way that it was um it makes them cringe because it just you know it can drive up the price in our market in toronto we've seen this before like i know people think that we just talk like silly talk sometimes but when somebody drops a bomb like that in toronto the price seems to go up for the toronto maple leaves to acquire a player compared to some other cities i know that that sounds absolutely acid. I want to spit it out there, but you know, people in the league want to drive up the price for the Leafs to acquire an asset of theirs. It happens guys.

So perfect storm of chaos. I don't like it. I like Daniel Steve full, full, full disclosure. I have had, I have a great relationship with Dan and I know what he's trying to do there.

But I don't like it and I also don't like the fact that the the Flames players in the room have to carry that the other guys haven't done that so I'm not in favor of that so you don't think it puts any pressure on Craig Conroy to get him out of the room because maybe the players are pissed off at him like did he just I think it I think it does I think that we're in a different world though i think that you know kipper think back to like when you were playing you know and this happened to toronto new york or whatever at a different time in the league i think that as soon as you get you stick your neck out on the line like that you're a cancer and we're getting ready as quick

as we possibly can nowadays it's asset management salary cap structure you know what are we getting in return there's so many moving parts that i think the games change i don't listen it's asset management, salary cap structure. You know, what are we getting in return? There's so many moving parts that I think the game's changed. I don't, listen, it's not sitting well with them. I mean, we're all competitors, right? I don't want some guy that I'd want to war with every night in the National Hockey League pulling the chute on me. That's a horrible taste in my mouth. So I don't think it sits well with them.

But I mean, it is what it is now. It's not perfect, that's for sure. So if it's not Calgary that's going to help out this Toronto Maple Leafs team, do you agree that it is D from somewhere, somehow? Is that what they're hunting for? And any guys around the league that might stand out to you? I know it's not an easy question. Give our listeners a name here.

You got any fixes for us out there? It's tough. Like, okay, so let's just be crazy for a second. And it doesn't really fit the bill of a physical type of shutdown guy. But I'm curious to see how the negotiations play out with Brandon Montour in Florida. We'll see how that goes. He's a pending UFA. I know Florida is looking to build on their roster that they have right now. i don't know where we went like i don't have i'm not an insider i'm not privy to things

but the names that i wish we would have been talking about more in july when we convened was you know the sussies of the world or the gudises of the world these guys you know and um yeah they would have come at a different price at that time, even if you would have overpaid. But 4-1 on Klingberg compared to, I think, Soucy's 2-9 or something. I'm doing this off the top of my head. I could be wrong for any of you. I probably haven't in front of you. But, you know, we could have combined

if they would have decided to come. That's a big if. Again, I'm not an insider. But that's the type of thing I would have been aggressively going after, even if I had to overpay by $750 per player, maybe even a mil. I would have added those two guys so hey are they available out there right now we all know they're not the the reason the noise is around calgary as much as it is is because they're pending ufas uh the teams you know in going through a rough patch well they're not

just going through a rough patch now they they're lacking identity and um but other than that geez i don't know what else is out there i i don't i can't i can't sit here on top of my head and say yeah let's go get this guy hey book one name that we've heard out almost since training camp and it's kind of fluctuated in terms of where his value is is tj brody you know i think it was frank maybe suggested there might be a scenario where he could be bought out early in the year i didn't see it i still see value there i think he'd be a great pickup for any team that needs that type of look for 18 20 minutes a night there's still value there we don't necessarily see him long-term resigning here, but could you flip his money out for a grittier horse,

one-for-one, cash in, cash out? Unlikely. I don't see it happening. I wish I see the premise because guys like, even like a, I'm just trying to think of veteran guys in the league and I'm not, but so like a McDonough in Nashville, if they're not, you know, if they're not a playoff team, like just guys that, that might be able to come in and play, you know,

a little bit different than Brody. The one thing with Brody guys is that I actually think he's dumbed down his game a bit to start the year this year. He's a little bit more composed, playing more between the dots in the defensive zone, not jumping out and kind of running out of gas, if you will, like not chasing the play as much. So I find that he's made some adjustments. And the real thing here is that, again, when you break it down, his adjustments and where he sits right now compared to where he goes shop,

isn't that much of an upgrade. And right now I don't see a kipper i guess we'd have to circle back i think we're going to be circling back on this for the next three weeks pretty religiously because this stretch of games coming out of sweden after this they're they're having meetings right now they're having resets they're looking at things they're practicing they're taking all stock of what they have and what they want. They kind of already know what they want, but it's going to play out pretty aggressively when they get back in the next two weeks, especially if a team like Calgary over their next five games goes like one and four. Great stuff, Boog.

Really appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this. Anytime, fellas. Have a great day today. Thanks, Boogs. Appreciate it. Does Boog get his own music when he leaves he just gets one guitar riff

Derek's just like itching to get us off the air I think got a box of Timbits he's looking to get to maybe Boots we should get music for Boots just a single I actually like if people can have individual goal songs in Buffalo, we can do it for guests.

Yeah, I just. Doug would get jealous for sure. I love books, but you make me sad. Yeah, you don't feel better about things? Okay. No, it's a wake-up call. Do you think. It's a wake-up call for Leaf fans.

Oh, you know what you didn't like? The fact that he said without assets moving forward, this is maybe go big or go home time for the Toronto Maple Leafs in the next couple of years. And even if you go big after that, you're going to go home. You're eventually going home. It's just how big you go before that. When he said it and I looked over at you, you kind of went white a little bit.

Yeah, I know. It's hot in here. I should be going red. Did that surprise you a little bit to hear him talk about lack of assets, setting them up for i just don't like i just i'm trying not to look about think about five years from now thinking about the least being good in the next couple here but yeah it's crazy how time goes sports fan anymore hey just to focus on the good hockey team you have well are they well whatever

there okay all right give us an update update on the global series between Detroit and Ottawa because the Leafs are sitting back saying, hey, we got Detroit tomorrow. We're going to beat the crap out of each other for a few more minutes. With one minute to go, it is still 4-4. Ottawa on a power play, it looks like. The Leafs are loving that. All right, we're back after these words for our National Hour.