Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Jets Soar Through Toronto

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Gord Stellick, and Sam McKee host a special edition of the Leafs Hour to break down the Maple Leafs' 5-2 loss to the Winnipeg Jets. The trio assess the team's play style under Craig Berube as they head into the Christmas break and discuss whether fatigue is beginning to impact the players. They also share Toronto's head coach’s post-game comments. The conversation continues with a look at William Nylander's extended power-play shift and the strategies behind pulling the goaltender for an extra attacker in the third period. To close the hour, they revisit concerns over Auston Matthews' injury and its impact on the team. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right, welcome into the Real Kipper and Bourne show. Special, special edition of our Leaf Hour, 5 p.m. I'm Nick Kiprios, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, Jake Schultz, and in in out of the bullpen for Justin Bourne. You are our Manny Rivera

of Real Kiprin Bourne. Was it Mariano Rivera? I was going to say Mariano. I don't know, was Manny Rivera a compliment? Manny's the guy on what's that show anyway the kid oh yeah yeah uh modern family family yeah oh okay i used to look like manny i'm looking i'm looking a little a little less manny like now he is gourd stelic stelic tricity in studio for the next two hours hey thanks for doing this uh hey pleasure so it's kind of neat. A little bit of a different time, right?

We're kind of going to be going later on, another hour later. And kind of a fun time just around Christmas, the Christmas break. You know, you remember those days it ended, you probably were hustling to get home and whatever, and the world stopped for a couple of days, and then you were back in the rat race again. So me and Gord have been here a lot when other people aren't here like you know we've been doing shows on saturday nights yes nobody i mean aren't here like nobody i gotta say the building

today is feeling eerily like a saturday evening there is we are the only people here we are like i i don't know i don't know how we drew the short straw there kippy like i don't you have enough polls around here to have to come in on a day like today? Well, just the three of us and all you watching and listening, whether it's Sportsnet 590, The Fan, Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet Plus, YouTube, you're downloading us. Thank you for sticking with us right through the Christmas holiday. I think it couldn't have probably come at a better time for the Toronto Maple Leafs who have lost their last two games, including the one that, Sammy, you just speak of at 2 p.m. today,

a special edition, what do we call it, Gen Z? The next Gen game. The next Gen, I don't know what it is. The Gen McCarthy game. I don't know. I've lost track of these things, Gord. The next Gen, though. Is Gen Z the laziest generation?

To take your next gen. It ain't like the old days, the 50-cent Marley ticket, and you ran into the office and got the half-price ticket for the old Junior 18. I think we needed Geritol today to watch this game. Well, it's the opposite. Remember that game we went to, another one of the least nation post game we had,

was that same time, the game against Carolina. Yeah. Where they won, and that's the game where, I think it was 8-6 was the final? They were up 3-0 early. So when they gave Jake Gardner a video tribute, his team was down 3-0. Oh, yeah. He had a Carolina bench. Yeah.

Like five minutes into the game and he waved from the bench and they're down 3-0. Then they made a game of it. They've been pretty unusual games. But first of all, Kippy, you took us to the, like you know your way around. We were in, it was like flashbacks. So then I've not been in the new hockey setup, right?

I've been when it was in the CBC building. Why didn't you tell me? I would have taken you for a walk through. I thought you came in last year at trade deadline for a hit. Did you not? Yeah, I did, but I wasn't there. They put me in an auxiliary press box somewhere, whatever. So we're in, what, the Lotus room there? Yes, the green room, whatever you want to call it. Watch everything, all those studios.

Yeah, but they had the snack, you know, where they hide the snacks locked. You do. I tried to pick the lock. I tried to knock it over. I tried to pull a Fonzie and hit it really hard. Nothing. Zero. Still locked.

That's the kind of game it was, right? You know, we're trying all the drawers, seeing what's in the fridge, you know, all that. It was like we had our own little, like we kind of a frat house and everyone had flown home for Christmas. We're the last three people there. There's actually a great movie that came out last year with Paul Giamatti, and I forget what it was called, but it's like that where they fly home. I'll remember it.

Anyways, continue. Bad sidebar. Not a typical show because we don't have Sammy. You don't have our clippers in the can here. If there's a chance that we can pick up some sound post-game, I think they'll feed it through us. We're going to probably go to Craig Berube's full post- post-game. I think they'll feed it through us. We're going to probably go to Craig Brubay's full post-game press conference. I think they're working on it now, so we'll get to that eventually.

But the name of that movie, by the way, is Holdovers. It's a great Christmas movie. If anyone's listening and looking for something over the holiday break, excellent movie. Nice job. Thank you. Cecil and Ubert? Cecil and Ebert?

Siskel and Ebert. Yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said Benny and Cecil and Ubert? What are their names? Cecil and Ebert? Siskel and Ebert. Yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said Benny and Cecil. It's Siskel and Ebert, given the... It's excellent. I'm telling you. Paul Giamatti, it's great.

I tell you, guy, if we'd set him up, Mark Scheifele would come. Mark Scheifele likes doing this stuff. He would be so jacked. He would come, and he would take an hour. He's got to be jacked that he doesn't have to fly back. He can spend Christmas right here. They stopped at a perfect spot.

I bet you if I would have got to him and I told him, come on our show after and we'll talk hockey for two hours, he would have not showered. He would have just left the rink and come over. That's how much he loves it. Yeah, absolutely. Loves talking hockey. What wouldn't he have loved about this afternoon's game?

Four points for Shifley. Patrick. Before, you know, I'll let you bring in whatever you want from what you witnessed this afternoon, but just in general, as the Leafs take a two-game losing streak into the Christmas break here, what have we seen from the last two games, or maybe even the last two weeks,

maybe the last 10 games, Gord, that's kind of crept in? Is this a good time for a break for this hockey club, regardless of how they've finished the games prior to Christmas? So keep in mind, too, the Winnipeg Jets have been on a not-so-impressive streak after their phenomenal start, but I think that's the key word, Kippy, is the Leafs have been impressive. That's what I found this year at the halfway point. They've really been impressive.

I mentioned they've won big games, including one against Winnipeg when Winnipeg hadn't been beaten. They found ways to come back that one game in Washington, for example. So they've been impressive. They've not been impressive the last couple of games. And you see Florida's been really impressive. So before you lose perspective about a stanley cup parade or what have you there are a lot of oppressive teams and florida still is the place you're gonna have to go

through i think in the east to get to the stanley cup final but i mean we're talking about just even winning a playoff round for starters so i yeah that that's what I really noticed the last couple of games that it factor the Leafs have had they didn't have. Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that think the Leafs are pretty boring to watch in terms of the style of play that they've been playing under Berube. And when they're winning, you just say, oh, well, it's winning. It's winning hockey. It's results or whatever. And I think when they lose, you know,

you don't necessarily feel like it's the most exciting games anymore. And that's maybe a good thing. You know, you don't necessarily want really exciting games when it comes to playoff time and all that. But, you know, this game here was a pretty boring game for long stretches of it. And you look at the game against the Isles, it felt the same way. I mean, the game on Friday against Buffalo, that was a crazy game.

Buffalo's not very good. But I think the style is, it's a completely different one, and it's one you have to get used to. But I do think there's moments where they feel like a pretty boring team. I've on occasion played this style with my respective hockey clubs. And the one thing that is really clear when you play a north-south game or a dump-and-ch chase game is that you have to have high energy you have to have great legs you have to anticipate you have to be sharp every shift

and i just the the team that i've watched in the last little while like how far going back would you say you think for the Leafs yeah I want to say at least 10 to 12 games okay and I gotta even go back to Stolarz's stand on your head to one win against Jersey that we have yet to see a full 60 minutes where you go hey the leafs were good tonight they're on a roll they got something going it just seems to me even when they they beat buffalo dallas uh buffalo back-to-back dallas they got lucky they there's there's always windows where you go they had great goaltending they had bad goaltending and yes we we managed to get the puck in the net a few times, but it's like they're not playing great. Yeah.

They're far from great. And the point you said, you've got to really want it, playing that style. You've got to be the first on everything because that style and you, when you were with the Rangers, Mark Messier, I love Roger Nilsson, and Roger Nilsson's the great guy at making your team better, but he didn't win championships. Yeah. And he didn't allow the superstar player to be the star player,

and that's what Mess took, Mark Messier took issue with, and they made the change, a big reason they made the change to the New York Rangers. So when you're playing this style, and then your star players aren't really don't see have the same freedom to be star players you know if that's fair to say whatever then it's a conundrum the old way you won was that's what they did versus this way yeah then all of a sudden that that particular allowance ends up being jeez you got you got this and you're not making the maximum usage of it yeah

we'll get into the fact that there's no Matthews, there are no Chris Tanev today, and that's a huge hole. And an outstanding, it wasn't Jake Ottinger and goal on the other side. And it's, those are big holes, right, that you're not filling today. But just to go back to my point is that if you are off 3%, 5%, 7% of that energy, of that focus, then dump a chase doesn't work you're you're you're going to be a split second too late and your opposition gets a much better opportunity and a cleaner opportunity to get out of their own zone and i think that's where i watch the

leafs now is the things that were probably easier for them 10, 12 games ago became like driving through mud today. And they don't win a lot of pucks that they put in deep anymore. And they look tired to me. They look like they could use a break. And I don't know. We're going to get to Craig Bruby. I think we got some sound from him right now. We'll get to him.

But that's what I see. I see a very tired group right now mentally physically who knows where they are even emotionally i thought looking at the game on saturday against the islanders i thought they looked dead tired you know on the second half of the back-to-back you know usually you build into a game after the first period you start feeling yourself and i didn't think they had anything there like i don't know up until maybe the start of december remember how we used to talk about how there's no odd man rushes how it just felt like the odd man rushes had completely dried up and it really feels like they're starting to creep back in now the goal totals are going up and it's a lot of hockey they've played in this last little bit so it's definitely a factor and

it's taking its toll on a few guys the guy that that pops at the top of my head right now watching this lineup and and going there's someone that could really use a break for me Matthew Nyes I don't see much purpose in his game right now I see a guy that wants to play how his coach wants him to play and And there might be a fine line there where he's just dumping the puck in too much. But when he does, he's not winning battles. He's not coming up with pucks. I think he's got maybe two points his last 10 or 12 games,

which, again, is okay for a guy with a little over 100 career games. But unfortunately for the Toronto Maple Leafs, where you have to be the number one left winger on the team that's supposed to contend for the Stanley Cup,s, where you have to be the number one left winger on the team that's supposed to contend for the Stanley Cup, that ain't good enough right now. So the tired thing is interesting because generally when that's said,

it means you're losing when they talk about being tired, right? When you're winning, what does it matter? And then Saturday, yeah, the New York Islanders were waiting for you. You're playing Buffalo, okay? It's a bus ride. And Buffalo still are the sabers, okay? So you made it a little bit interesting when it shouldn't have been so interesting at the end.

So I thought that was kind of like, and to his point, being tired was, wait a sec, we gave up like too many two-on-ones or whatever in the first five minutes. So what is that, mentally tired? Not focusing, like beyond the actual physically being tired. So that's why whatever number day break they have, you know, okay. Maybe positive.

Maybe it's the mental adjustment that they need. But I think Nye's, I think that's a good point. Hey, when can we talk about the Nylander shift? Like what you thought of it? For sure. Okay, later. Okay. We're going to get into all that.

We still got plenty of time here. Because we just weren't talking about being tired. I was just kind of curious. We're going to talk about Nylander. We're going to talk about Matthews. There's still plenty plenty of time here. Because we just weren't talking about being tired. I was just kind of curious. We're going to talk about Nylander. We're going to talk about Matthews. There's still plenty more to chew on. But let's get a feel from Craig Berube post-game after today's 5-2 loss, and we'll pick it up from there.

Some of those little details you talked about before the game that were, you know. Yeah, I thought. Third period, two of them. What are some of the keys that you want to see from your team limiting the opponent's transition chances? What's that? What are some of the things you want to see from your team in trying to limit the opponent's chances in transition? I can't.

So throughout this week, I mean, you spoke about you want to see the team improve, the rush defense. What would you like to want to see from your team? He's fast. Yeah. I mean, I get the one, Mitch is shooting a puck that got blocked, and, you know, we're backtracking on that play.

You know, they played it pretty well. I mean, I think, you know, I'd like to see Woolsey over there in that one. The one in the third, it's just a neutral zone thing, a transition by them, and, you know, our forward's sleeping on the weak side. It's just they make a backdoor play. You know, fourth goal, fourth goal, bad. We've got to have stick details there, like just details.

Any more details on Tanev and his status? Lower body right now. Something happened in the last game there? Yeah. What are your thoughts about the team overall up to this point? Well, I think the team overall has played some real good hockey and done a lot of good things. Made a lot of

strides in the right direction and we will again. These last two games we've slept. I thought that we played a real good first period. You know, we got a penalty and they scored in the power play, but I thought we were the better team. And then even in the second inning, I liked our game, but we've got to clean up the mistakes, the details.

You know, it's like the game's right there. You know, we created enough. We didn't score enough goals, obviously, tonight. But, you know, we did a lot of good things tonight. I thought that we checked well tonight, but we've got to clean up some stuff. Like these details, we've got to clean them up.

Overall, you say that it's true that the defense has been much better here in Toronto. How do you bring the offense up now to that balance? Do you think they have a little more ones to give? I think the offense has been coming. I think we've been scoring more five-on-five as of late. You know, power play got one tonight first, but, you know,

you know, we missed the net a lot. We missed the net a lot tonight again, too. I think it was like 23 times. It happens sometimes for players, but what did you think of Willie? I don't know the guys for 455. On that power play? On that power play and what not.

Well, Willie knows he could stay out for the full power play, two minutes. You know, at that point, you know, I'd have to look at the tape and, you know, think about and look at why he didn't come off or where the situation was at the time. But, you know, he was obviously trying to score. Did you think the ball had the puck covered in his feet there? Where I saw on the bench, I thought he did, but it was behind him, and I couldn't see on the bench from that angle.

So our video guys looked at it. Otherwise, if it was, I would have called the challenge. The details, is that just a function of a long season and using these next three years? Yeah, for sure. You get worn down, tired, a lot of hockey, a lot of back-to-backs we've had. It's been a tough schedule for us. But I'm not making excuses.

We're in the NHL. It doesn't matter. You've got to be sharp. These three days, get some rest, and we should be ready to go. Thank you. As head coach, Craig Berube, after this afternoon's loss. So just one more point I want to make about what I see in terms.

I'm not making excuses. There's things that I still don't like, including the length of Willie's shift. But it's just not the Leafs. There's signs that I saw out of Winnipeg that they're a little spent too. And just, it seems like every team's playing every other night. And we have this compressed schedule to get to this Four Nations.

And I think in general, they've affected the product on the ice for people to go pay and think that they're going to see top performances and top you know entertainment they can't do it they just cannot do it it's just too much compressed in a very short period of time and i think the leafs have paid for it and there's other teams that have paid for it and unfortunately there's just no way around it so it's um and one big difference like from

first of all from my era everything even if it's not a good game it's full speed nowadays like it's um and one big difference like from first of all from my era everything even if it's not a good game it's full speed nowadays like it's full speed everything's done basically full speed so as far as the you know extracting a toll in that regard and the other thing you know kippy and sammy i i never played but i was fortunate to work for organizations and you get tired the season just keeps coming at you coming at you and there are these dog days and you know tired. The season just keeps coming at you, coming at you, and there are these dog days, and generally when the weather turns and whatever, so the better teams kind of ride it more even. It's not as uneven, right?

They don't have as many valleys. They have more peaks, and you're right. It just seems right around now it's catching up to not just the Toronto Maple Leafs, but a lot of other teams that it's just a lot. Brube didn't sound very good. Sounded sick. I know that feeling.

But he didn't look good. He didn't look like he was sounding good. It's a toll on him, too. Well, the word tired is in every phrase right now. Yeah. You look at him. I listen to a lot of it post-game to cut the clips of the show or whatever, and you just watch him there.

That's a man that needs a break. I really do feel like this team. He's right there with the rest of the show or whatever and you just watch them there that's a man that's need to break okay i really do feel like he's right there with the rest of them yeah like and coaching here is different than coaching in st louis or philadelphia like it's handling the off-ice stuff oh my god demands yes of of like turning down our show when we ask them to come on it it takes a lot of energy. Yes. Right? Well, on one of the other stations, we'll talk later about the Devils' win over the Rangers.

So Jack Hughes gets interviewed on the ice. He gets interviewed, like, post-game. Then they show his scrum. But it's New Jersey. It doesn't matter. It's like he's at junior high. It's no big deal. You know what I mean? They're just kind of hey hey i'm just gonna chat some more

right we're here it's like you're you know it's it's like it's like the prime minister or president or state of the nation type thing when you're the coach of the toronto maple leafs and you face the media compared to like jack hughes uh yeah jack jack hughes excellent verbal adventure post game okay you're like chomping to talk about Willie Nylander's almost five-minute shift. Yeah. What was it? 457 or something like that. 455.

455, officially. Speaking of Jack Hughes, according to the broadcast, he has the longest shift in NHL history at just over six. Well, everybody reversed to the Kovalev shift. Were you on the bench? I was on the bench, yes. Were you up next? I don't know. That's why he kept going.

I don't know how long it was, but it was longer than Willie's and it was longer than Hugh's. And the only thing I really truly remember is every time he tried to change and Keenan would would say stay out there he thought he was being rewarded and we're all sitting there going he still doesn't get it does it does he and uh took a while yeah like till april and then eventually it kicked in i think because he's one of those guys that always took long shifts long so this was mike keenan was making a point he was making a point i don't care what like if you're a parent watching your kid play you get pissed that

that kipper's kid never comes off and justin's up next right you know just all that and then in the nhl same kind of thing let's face it certain certain players earn more ice time more that goes with the territory but so explain today, first of all, what's a power play? It was a four-minute power play, and Berube kind of says he knows he could stay out there. He did say for a two-minute power play, for all of it, if things are going well. There obviously was a chance or two to change.

And I don't know who was up next, but you can't be too happy if you're up next and a player decides, I'm better tired for two more minutes yeah the next player fresh yeah i i i didn't like craig broody broody's post-game response to that shift i don't i i didn't like it because it's uh it gives him the green light it gives it empowers him to stay out there as long as he wants. And there's no world that we live in today compared to 20 years ago to 40 years ago.

There's no world, hockey world, where a 4-45 shift is acceptable. Like we're taught at a very young age that the number is somewhere between 40 seconds and a minute, minute and a half. And then now between Craig and Willie, they get to rewrite the whole hockey shift world by saying he can stay out there as long as he likes. And it's just, in my world, there's just no way that that can be acceptable for 21 other guys. What goes hand in hand with what we're talking about right now about the team, about the details, and the lack of focus, the lack of whatever. That's another part of it is about just, like, what percentage could you be going at to be out there for 455? It's such a separation between you and your team.

Team A, Team B. Right? It's worse than Team A and Team B. It's Team A and Team Z. Yeah. Yeah. We already know, okay, me, fourth line slug, you know, checkers. We already know that there's different rules for Willie, Mitch,

Austin, and all the stars. We get that. But to the point where you get to stay out as long as you want and then to your point, it's the domino effect of the next guy up or the next guy after that. And how long before you need to recover to get back a rhythm? Because the game is a rhythm. Changing is a rhythm.

What lines up next is a rhythm. You just derail everything when you got a guy out there that long. And it's not good. It's not good for team morale. It's not good for the next man up. It's not good for the next man up after that. It's just, it derails everything. So I would have to think, and Craig Berube just said,

I got to take a look at it, right? Because probably a while that's going on, he can't remember every single thing that happened. But again, when we talk about those kind of details that make a difference in the playoffs, much like not being asleep when David Pasternak gets that opportunity in Game 7 overtime, whatever the kind of detail things are that you have to, that's another one. Because to your point, in the playoffs, you've got to be given it,

and the line changes have to be crisp, and they've got to keep coming at them, and you've got to get that kind of flow. And then, as you mentioned, and just regular season, too, as well. I don't mean to keep harping on the playoffs, but just good habits. That to your point, you've messed the whole rhythm up. You've messed the lines up. There's an unevenness. And, you know, to get back to where you want to do that,

you feel like you're in the flow. You're making some very unnecessary adjustments. So instead of having him say, oh, we're going to have to look at it, you and I would, you go to i would rather him just say hey you know i have to look at it but i don't think there's any world where any guy should have a four minute and 55 second shift that's all it takes it's like it's it's too much it's crazy we we need to fix it and i need to look at it and see where it went wrong and that can't happen again bingo over i i don't and Over. I don't, and I actually,

I don't know how he would ever look this up, but him doing the two-minute power play, since he's done that, how many times has he scored in the second half of the power play? Like, I don't understand why he needs to play the full two. You gotta, to kind of explain it,

is that earlier in the season, we all know that Willie had a concern about his ice time. Right? I guess that's why he took a 450 punch. They want to make Willie happy. And it's like, Willie doesn't kill penalties. So, Willie, we're going to take the minutes that a penalty killer would take,

and we're going to add it to you for the second half of the power play. And that's where it originated. Because they've given Austin some PK time. And of course, Mitch is an excellent penalty killer. And yeah, so in Willie's cases, the other part is if you are still applying pressure, that's the thing.

Like if the power plays, if it's going two minutes long and you can read versus saying I'm entitled to stay out of here two minutes so even though the puck gets iced with a minute 40 into it i'm not going to peel off i'm going to take the net you know then that's where and maybe this will be a healthy healthy discussion because you're because ruby was uh he didn't have a problem saying i thought joe wall should have you know move quicker which we did too but then we looked at he really didn't see the rebound like the one that looks like you know he can't move at all you realize he actually

reacted late he didn't really know where the puck was so i've liked that barubi in a constructive way can do that about individual players whether you want to call calling them out or what have you uh could do that but yeah he kind of he kind of did kid gloves on willie with that one the other thing i mean he's also, I mean, in Willie's defense, he's second in the league in goals, right? You have to have some give and take when you're being critical, but I would have liked it there. The other one on a nice time and length of shifts, too, is end a game.

So in our world, when we were with hockey club scored, the standard was that you'd pull a goalie with about a minute and a half, right? Or even under a minute. Yeah. 30 seconds, 40 seconds, we'd see the goalie leave. And then you'd have your best players out there for one last push. You score the goal to tie it up, great. They score an empty netter.

You're off the ice. The game's over. And then you quietly fade to the sunset. Fade to black. You fade to black. Now they pull goalies with anywhere between five minutes and zero. Saturday night, they were out there for five minutes. So here we are now.

You're putting out your best players, not with under a minute, but under five. And somehow, some way, they feel compelled to stay out there for the whole five. Like, I don't know if you saw John Tavares at the end of it, but he had, I don't know what the number was, but that guy wouldn't come off the ice either. And they're all like tongues are dragging. And once again, if I'm like one of 15 guys on the bench and I'm watching you suck air, but you won't come off the ice, I'm sitting there, what am I doing?

Well, that's why there's so many empty net goals. So it's negating the whole point about trying with the extra. So you're getting the extra attacker, but then you're tired. So whatever. So that you're saying on the bench, look, give me, I'll go 40 seconds. I'll go full bore. I'll go right in and try to get the puck, whatever, which they can't do now because they're almost entering their third minute out there.

So, yeah, you you're you're like first i i i'd like to go back to just pulling the goaltender a lot later in the game i know patrick wad did it then bruce budro did it and there was that kind of success for a while coming back from two goals down but that that really has not happened by and large of late and it's an analytics play and i where it is it's where it's like the result ultimately doesn't matter, so you might as well. We're seeing guys get significant goals and points off of empty net goals. Remember we had that conversation?

Was it like Hagel or somebody had 14 empty net points last year or something like that? I don't know who I watched on the weekend. Colorado maybe. Some guy's got one goal. They pull their goalie. He's got a hat trick. I'm sitting there going, can you really get two empty net goals?

One for the hatty like Shifley. And feel like you scored an NHL hat trick. So, by the way, speaking of Bruce Boudreaux, he tells the end of year story with Minnesota. He and GM Chuck Fletcher, they're doing the exit meetings with the players. And one player, who was a pretty prominent player there, just talking about things and then just talking about being used in all situations and kind of going, well, you're on the power play

and you kill penalties and you know what? No, not on the ice enough for the empty net. Oh, yeah. He goes, I just looked at Chuck and go, are you kidding? And he goes, and that defined what this player was about as far as individual versus team. No, but there's many like that. Yeah, Pistey's not that.

That's more important than the power play. Like, I don't want the power play PK when there's an empty net. I want my apples. That's when I want to be out there. Well, I mean, you see the, oftentimes, and the Leafs stars are out there when they're up two in the empty net. It's like they turn into the 78 Islanders running into everybody and lifting sticks and trying to get it.

The Cookie Monsters come out. Easy freebie, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And an icing, no icing. Like, we couldn't ice the puck. Yeah, they don't even care about that anymore. I just, I know it's analytics. I still can't agree with it.

I still can't agree with it that you don't take, you got to, I'm sorry. Like, in a one goal lead, and I've asked that question many times, and they say the analytics says you're better off. That's what you're supposed to do, take a whack at it and risk the icing. I mean, that was a golden rule. You never even dared. It was considered incredibly selfish play,

but now you can hide behind analytics or justify it with analytics. Yeah, yeah. Game time or go to break? Let's hit a break. Oh, we're doing game time in the 6 o'clock hour. Oh, we are? Yeah, we should take a break. We should come back.

We should talk about Matthews. Oh, yeah. Lots of talk and the concern on a scale of 1 to 10, Gord. I need a number on Austin Matthews' short-term, long-term repercussions of this latest injury. That and more when we return to Real Kipper and Born. Nick Kiprios, Gord Stelic, Sammy McKee in our special 5 p.m. edition of Real Kipper and Born.

We left for the break. Yeah, with a hook. Talking about Austin Matthews missed his second consecutive game on what we think is a recurring issue. On a scale of 1 to 10, I asked asked you before the break where's your level of concern well it's higher than it was say friday before i found out so um i'll give it a i'll give it a seven and um i know you want sammy to answer as well but you know kippy uh you and i write some guest columns for the toronto star so austin matthews going to germany just seemed to bring up so much intrigue about what was going

on so i got to reminisce about wendell clark staying at uh lord thompson's flat in london england i did read about this yeah and uh like yeah you gotta listen to this and not that we're gonna derail like the whole thing but give us Cole's notes version. So Clark, he basically, he finished his third year in the NHL and had only played 28 games, had these back issues. And back then, the team doctor was the voice, the god, as far as treatment went. And he said, I like the team doctors, the team medical staff.

And they said, well, you could have surgery or your career could be over. And he tried different things, went to the Mayo Clinic, went to some LCU card, recommended someone in Chicago, so went there. But then on his own, the richest guy in Canada, Ken Thompson, whose son owns Winnipeg Jets now, and by the way, Ken Thompson loved the Leafs. He helped Steve Stavro, you know, finance Stavro later on. He called Wendell's representatives, and Clark, he shows up in downtown Toronto

in golf shorts and a golf shirt. He said, he goes, do you have something better to wear? Kind of whatever. So he set him up. He paid us. We didn't even know. I'm with the Leafs. We didn't even know this. Paid his business class ticket, set him up in his flat in London, England, overlooking Buckingham Palace. And he had his own chauffeur. And Clark, he said, I told the chauffeur to dress down a bit because he was that, and the fridge was stocked and all that. And he was there for 10 days, and he saw this homeopathic doctor that Ken Thompson set up, and it was the first time he made positive gains.

And then the guy said, well, let's find someone in Toronto that could carry on the treatment I'm prescribing. And that guy was Chris Broadhurst who worked at a fitness facility and then became the athletic therapist for the Maple Leafs. And Wendell says for five years of treatments, two hours a day, that's what kept him playing. So that was the first about going somewhere to think in the big, to look in the big picture and having successful treatment.

So what was your, what was the viewers and the leafs original reaction to hearing that he's going somewhere else because we know clubs are very protective yeah and and to this day they they may feel like they have no other choice but to accommodate uh your athlete to have a second or third opinion somewhere else but i would bet you didn't like it too much well you know we a little bit about again you go oh geez how are doctors going to feel right which isn't the right way to do it i mean eric lindros had an issue in philadelphia with his doctor we saw jack eichel well i mean part of the buffalo sabers mess is because of a difference

of opinion about his medical treatment so that was kind of part like i got mean, part of the Buffalo Sabres mess is because of a difference of opinion about his medical treatment. So that was kind of part, like I got a kick out of the story, but it was strange this 22-year-old kid had to go on his own to try to find a treatment. And that's where it started to grow, Kippy. And I just said, you know, that number one overall pick then to the next number one overall

pick, Austin Matthews, look how the world is an oyster for everybody. Now the team doctor, it's an ongoing discussion. It used to be the team doctor was the mechanic. And there, he's working on your car. Go talk to him in the garage. That was Harold's guy. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. But no, I mean, just in general. Yeah. Now he's the guy at the desk when you go get your car serviced. You never see the mechanic. But he goes, okay, here's where I'm going to help you. You can go to that guy or I can send you to dr andrews in alabama and now there's only there's probably three or four doctors in north america that handle everything um what's the guy's name in miniatur

or whatever he's well known you know there's certain ones that so the team doctor understands that now before it was a source of pride you know like with the new york rangers they talk about the 1960s the team doctor was having drinks and playing cards all the time. And he kept wanting to do back surgery on guys. Visiting players would go and they'd go, I can do a disc thing, whatever. I don't know. I'm going to go back home, whatever,

and see a disc fusion or something like that, you know? So there was that evolution to now. It's understood. The Connor McDavid one was excellent about um jeff jackson cooperated his agent who now is running the orders but showed i guess in colorado is where he decided you didn't need surgery and that's where talking to some doctors when you go to other countries it looks like you're looking for certain treatments to avoid surgery i don't know this in this case but quite often that's what you're looking at so that's why my level of

concern is if this thing isn't getting better is it one of those that we can ride out the season address it after the season or might the clock strike 12 sometime during the season i don't know how about uh fan gate 10 10 10 10 i'm terrified yeah like high alert high alert oh my goodness high alert i'm between you and him right now. I'm between you and him right now. No, I'm between you and him right now. You're between with the number. Okay.

Austin Matthews, I'm between your 7 and his 10. I thought it was going to start to look better, right? Like that's, you know, when we were talking about him not playing, I was surprised by how long it was taking, and I thought they were being overly cautious with it, and it was frustrating to me with the lack of information but watching him play you're gonna give him a few games when he first comes back to kind of get back into the swing but over the past like before the buffalo game it had looked the same as it's looked since the start of the season since the preseason it's looked exactly the same and then to have him

come back play in that game where he'd already missed the morning skate where he wasn't feeling right, and then to have him take that shot right in the sweet spot, like that's as bad as a shot you can take in a sore back or whatever it is that's ailing him. I don't know, man. Like, you know, I'm starting to think about LTIR

and spending the money. Holy moly. Like I really am. Chicken little here. The sky's falling down. I mean, how can you not be worried about it? No. I don't think you're jumping to that conclusion in the next couple of weeks,

but those conversations have to be going on right now. No, well, that's why I gave it a seven. That's why I upgraded to a seven out of ten, understanding that, yeah, that there's way more of a possibility than it would have thought last week like based on the fact that he's already had nine games away from the team that was close to a month that he was off there is no guarantees that the next 10 20 or 30 days off will get him anywhere better than he is today. So where are you now when it comes to the trade deadline? And if you thought you could get away with an upgrade in your lineup

with a slash 3-4 like a Yanni Gord in Seattle. Now you got to maybe be thinking about a legit one-two guy from another hockey club to come in. Ryan O'Reilly. Nazem Kadri. Nazem Kadri, yeah. Brock Nelson. It got a lot more expensive.

The thing watching that game on Friday night against the Sabres where he gets hurt, and JD made the point to me after the game when I thought it was a really good one, is that the way guys were reacting to him taking shots and the way that it was telling me that he was playing through something pretty seriously. Just the way that Morgan Riley jumped in there on a pretty innocent play. John Tavares punched the guy in the face, which you never see him do. It just felt like his teammates were really sensitive to stuff that was happening to him. And they should be with the captain.

He's a great player. But way more than normal. Just the way they were reacting to him. I don't know if it's just Austin being Austin. I wish he would have more of a reaction. Even if I was protecting something, I'd have a shorter fuse to come back at somebody. We saw it in that Chicago game where he got hammered.

Zero reaction to protecting something to me. That game in Montreal a couple years ago was kind of the one that... No, you don't want him to fight, but you know what? Joe Thornton's a great example in his prime, right? Joe would go squirrelly twice a year

like there was always a little little bit uncertainty that all of a sudden the the cool super surfer dude in the nhl that all that that all of a sudden and had a great fight with nasm cadre once too like all of a sudden that that was enough and there and i'd like to see that to your point a little bit more but it's just not in him. And I don't know what. We've seen him maybe cross-check somebody once around the net earlier this year, if I'm not mistaken. Well, he got suspended once. Yeah.

I know, but of all the things. But he's been in the league for eight years now, right? Yeah. Eight years. And there's less than a handful of times that you go okay that's that's real raw emotion this he just doesn't have it i thought for sure against buffalo he got run by tage thompson pretty good hit clean but doesn't matter he ran yeah and then you take that cross check and there's just nothing from him well okay keep in mind. Okay, let's balance this. Heart Trophy winner, almost scored 70 goals.

Like, I mean, you know, so his makeup is his makeup and number one overall pick and, you know, all these kinds of things. So, again, and again, it's a different time, right? But, again, 2024, so I will say you don't have to fight. You don't want him to fight, all that. Will that make him a better player if he gets that visceral reaction that we seem to think from time to time? Come on, come on.

Don't know. Don't know. Would it rally the team maybe? I don't know. What will we get out of it? What's the end game in this? Well, first of all. He's the captain now.

So that would be a difference. Honest to God, forget about the team for one second. And I can't believe I'm saying that, but I am. in this well first of all he's the captain um now so that would be a difference honest to god forget about the team for one second and i can't believe i'm saying that but i am okay when it really comes down to it gourd it's just my message to you and anyone else that i ain't eating your crap sandwich okay you don't get free rides on me like he took a beating in that game on Friday night. I'm telling you, one of the best pieces of advice I ever got from Dale Hunter, and he's the king, is that you want to eat a crap sandwich, you eat it. But if you want to stop it, take a suspension if you have to. But it'll be worth every penny you pay on a finer suspension

to tell everybody out there, if you want to take advantage of me, you want to think I'm vulnerable, this is what's going to happen. But he did get suspended once. I was going to say he did take a suspension. And he paid a lot. But it was an odd play.

But it was an odd play. I'm talking about overall, Gord. I'm not talking about plays. I'm just talking about an overall message that you have to once in a while send to people is like i'm not i'm not a piñata i'm not your whipping boy you want to take free rides in me okay you got to have some sort of reaction you just can't sit there do willie and mitch have it i mean it's just the makeup of that team.

Yeah, you know. But I, in all honesty, like, at least with Mitch, they say what you will. I know he got a lot of heat, you know. Kelly Rudy didn't like it back then, but the gloves whipping off the bench, you know, in the playoffs last year, you know, a lot of people didn't like that.

But to me, that's raw emotion. And, you know, last time I checked, like that but to me that's that's raw emotion and you know last time i checked i think the least one the next two games when mitch threw his gloves off the bench i'm not saying that i'm not just whatever it is i just think that it could help austin every once in a while showing more emotion in in whatever capacity he feels is necessary to show that, you know, I'm not accepting what's happening. Okay. So then here's the question. When will he next get the chance to show emotion in a hockey game? Yeah.

Like, we're looking ahead to Friday here because they just played their last game. I don't see a world where he comes back in the next 10 days, two weeks. But to go back to your question from before, Kippy, about the trade deadline, the one, if you want to call it upside, is the fact that they'll know by the trade deadline. They'll have clarity about his situation. You remember a couple of years ago, Ottawa's goalies got hurt

after the trade deadline. They hadn't made a move for a goalie, right? So here, if you have to go bigger, I would think you'll have that kind of clarity i i'm not sure how much clarity you're gonna have because he came in to training camp we believe with a situation okay we are at christmas and you are no clearer than you were on what was ailing him months ago so So where are you going to be in March? In and out of the lineup?

Go visit another doctor? Go back to Germany? Like, even if there's a scenario where you got to start thinking about long-term IR and pulling a Kucherov and having him sit and waiting in the playoffs, there's no guarantee that when he comes back, he's going to be old Austin. No, he's not. I think you'd have the option of having the Mark Stone, Kelly McCrimmon conversation where you say,

hey, your back's not right. You're sitting until the start of the playoffs. And if you have, let's say, Nazem Kadri on your salary cap plus a 60% or 70% of Auston Matthews heading into the playoffs, you're feeling pretty good. Are you getting Auston Matthews at 100% for the rest of the season? It's starting to feel like you're not. So I don't know what it's – I'm not a doctor.

We have one that comes on the show, Dr. Doctor. I don't know. But, like, it's feeling harder and harder to believe. Look at the way the schedule breaks out here. They play 100 games in the next month. Okay. But long-term repercussions, too, is if you go get a cadre, you're really saying that I'm not signing John Tavares

to a three-year, $7 million deal. I can't have Austin at 13. I can't have cadre at seven and then john tavaris is going to sign a deal for seven million dollars so you're really making a decision that will also factor in john tavaris's future for sure but i'm just saying like if you're making a big swing maybe it's more the ufa route with like i said like brock nelson or something like that i don't know but if you have the ability to have the conversation with Austin Matthews and say, hey, you're sitting down until the playoffs

and you could add something big, it's an opportunity. So I'm still going to be my usual cheery optimistic about things, but it is strange that here we are and we know more about Thatcher Demko now than we do about Austin compared to the start of the year, right? You know, Thatcher Demko dealt with whatever his issue is and hopefully he's fine. And Austin Matthews just seems to carry on, right? And we learned about a pebble and stole ours as an E.

Yes. But we haven't got a clue officially what's going on with Austin. Yeah, yeah. So we'll speculate. I think it's more, but isn't that kind of him i think he's pretty private guy he doesn't want i think since oh when does that stopped anybody from finding out or yeah i mean nowadays it's amazing how they shut it down like i think it's a shoulder right i don't know what do you think i don't know i don't know i tend to believe it's his back okay so we can

play operation milton bradley's operation just you know the shoulder bones funny bone i don't know wasn't parker brothers milton bradley sorry parker brothers is monopoly all right there we go christmas time yeah yeah love it love it um we should know john tavaris with two goals now he's's on a list of just a handful of guys. Sammy, for scoring 200 goals with two different teams, if I'm correct? John Tavares scored his 200th goal as a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. After also scoring 272 with the Islanders, Tavares becomes the fifth player in NHL history to reach that milestone with multiple franchises behind Keith Kachuk with Winnipeg and Phoenix.

Is that it? And St. Louis. There you go. Mark Messier with Edmontong and Phoenix. That's it. And St. Louis. There you go. Marc Messier with Edmonton and New York. Gretzky with Edmonton and L.A. And Lanny McDonald with Toronto and Calgary. So pretty cool. A model of consistency.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. A very, you know, impressive year with him starting going, being captain of Team Canada last year, going in the Worlds, which normally guys in their 30s with new families don't do so much. And I was impressed by that.

And just when, you know, this transition year, he's come up with a really nice year. Yeah, I mean, a little bit of pressure now needing a new contract and having the seed taken away from you are a couple of things that I think were real personal to him. And so far he's doing what he's always done, and that's come up with 75, 80 points a year. So it's 6 o'clock.

We're done now, right? No. Oh, what? We got another hour. What the hell? Another hour. I want to stay. I want to stay.

Or you want to send me home, yeah. You still got time in between this commercial break to go get us something for Christmas. No? Okay, I'll work on it. I'll see you at the cafeteria. Okay, Gord's going to the Eat us something for Christmas. No? Okay, I'll work on it. I'll see you at the cafeteria. Okay, Gord's going to the Eaton Center real quick and when he returns,

we go national with Brian Lawton. Don't go away.