Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Marner Monday + Depth in Net

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee look back on the Leafs' 3-2 win over Utah HC on Sunday. They discuss the team's slow start, Joseph Woll inspiring confidence, Chris Tanev's impact and Mitch Marner proving his worth without Auston Matthews. Does Marner hold all leverage in extension negotiations? Later, The Athletic's Josh Kloke (31:29) weighs in on the Leafs' winning stretch without Matthews, why the team should spread talent across three lines when he returns, Woll's consistency and the odd man off the roster when players return from IR.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in to the Leaf Edition. The real Kipper and Boren show. Nick Kiprios, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, and Jake the Snake Schultz with you for the next two hours. In about 35 minutes, we'll welcome in Joshua Cloak, leaf writer for The Athletic. And then at the top of the hour, Andy Strickland, host of 590 The Fan in St. Louis.

What happened there? They have a 590 The Fan in St. Louis. Come on, is that real? Did they rip us off? What do you think, just making a joke? Sometimes there's errors on the line, if that's all. Is that a copyright infringement? Should run upstairs i don't know okay guys we'll ask andy okay he of course will give us all the latest on the recent hiring of jim montgomery the body wasn't even cold in boston no he just and now leading the st louis blues in the meantime we are live on sports at 590 the

fans sports at 360 and sports net plus the toronto maple leafs keep it rolling win again they play like once a month but it's okay on the football schedule they get lots of practice they're feeling good yeah they get by the utah hockey club on a rare sunday which felt really weird to me weekend for hockey really weird weekend but nonetheless a 3-2 win and another two points jb yeah i mean hey not not going to take in any way from them what a schedule they play twice a week for two consecutive weeks and then they're going to play 15 times in 31 days. So almost a game every other day. In December, every single weekend, they will play a back-to-back.

So insane schedule coming up. But right now, that's a little strange. Yeah, took advantage of it yesterday. You know, what's so funny, Kip, is what storyline was developed for you? Because it's like goal is still good defense still good marner nylander still good uh anything new boys i know and i think it's just a build-up going into this week against two rivals the battle of the atlantic division will come into this weekend and it was one of those games last night well first and foremost i mentioned a rare sunday which just felt like a

a sleepy night and i don't know how the energy was at scotia bank arena last night but i think everybody had that kind of that sleepy kind of sunday night feel including the leafs to start the game yeah kind of ended the same way they had a good second period big picture is they got through it when you got game breakers like nylander and marner that's the difference last night yeah but one of those games where it's like just get the two points and move on funny uh I don't know if you guys saw this but Utah couldn't get to the rink on time like I assume Taylor Swift had a concert Saturday night so no it was Sunday it was Sunday okay it was the Santa Claus parade this time is that what it was

yeah so yeah 5 15 it's always something you always have a power play meeting at 5 15 or whatever and they were walking to the rink because the bus wasn't moving at 5 15 so people are laughing about that that's one of the most embarrassing things in the world so that was kind of where i was going to go with it are you kidding i was like if you're the the hockey ops guy for utah like you don't want us talking about this like you didn't build toronto traffic into the plan oh that's your perspective like interesting yeah interesting failing like i love that take i was going the other way being like the city's an absolute joke that's a big total embarrassment noon and in this city you could still be late okay that's how bad it is leave at noon that's humiliating to me ford's on it

he's on it the bike lanes will be gone gone by Wednesday or Thursday, I'm told. So everything will be back to normal. They'll fix it? Yeah. I'll fix it. Drive down the bike lane. That'll do it. Whatever the case of this city is, I just think that's embarrassing that they weren't there. So that was the Leafs' 10th home win this season.

They're the first team in the NHL with 10 home wins. No team in the Atlantic Division has more than six. So they weren't a very good team on home ice last year compared to the other very good teams. That was one of the priorities, to be a tougher team at home. I thought they actually showed flashes of this young team and some of their bright spots.

Cooley. I like Cooley. Clayton Keller. You can see there's some upside they're just not ready and they just they're not there yet but there was times when they were just early they looked a lot quicker than the Leafs sure but like they remind

me of a lot of teams like every team has a few good players there's 15 of those 18 20 keep going i could be sold on 22 24 they got four good players who might get better like you know but i just thought so yes they are fast i did see what you're seeing yeah but there was a long stretch of that game obviously the second period where it was just like odd man rush leaves odd man rush leaves and it was like god are they playing with any structure what's happening over there and

they took some dumb penalties too they're just like come on you like that mcbain though don't you big guy hits oh yeah he could he could play he could play on my team any day um i think in years past this like the one of the things we've complained about is the leafs playing down to opponents and they're these trap games and every team has them but we talk about the leafs so we focused in on that and they tried to trap that game they tried their damnedest to make that a trap game but i thought they did like they did what they needed to do where they have a horrible first they play unbelievable hockey the second like you said power plays and then they survive again in the third like you know they score one to make it three two and then they're buzzing around

for the last minute of that that wall has to make an outstanding stretch save i don't know who it was that he robbed with the leg yeah yeah like they needed some of that but it was but then they survived the trap game before two really big ones this week wednesday against florida saturday against tampa so full marks to surviving the trap game, which I thought was going to get them. Okay, let's get to our first Kippers Clipper of the Week, Craig Berube, on what he saw on this Sunday night. We were flat in the first, I thought, and just, you know, you can tell off face-offs and guys aren't jumping

and they're not getting a pick and just things like little things like that. We didn't play North right away. And, and, and the first we were kind of like trying to go back and regroup too much. And, um, you know, guys, you know, I think we just talked about it between periods and they did a real good job of adjusting and, and played a great second and drew some penalties. Power play was excellent. Gave us a lot of momentum um you know and kind of changed the game power play was

excellent you take any goalie in the past outside of joseph wall and stole ours now and you put sheldon keith behind that bench they lose last night oh yeah oh yeah what do you got I've nothing I'm just telling you they would have found a way to lose that game last night yeah the the part that I you know Ruby almost implies that right he's like you know we we wanted to regroup too much and it's like that's the key reference in there right but it's it's all the the numbers now, right? Where this time last year, they might have had one of the worst save percentages five on five.

One year later, it's one of the best. Yeah. And you think that's how they're playing? That's it. And we can point to goaltending. We can point to a deeper blue line, we could more structure. They don't give up the middle of the ice

like they did in years past. You got to work your ass off to score a goal against the Leafs now. They block shots and they take the middle of the ice and when they do get pucks through, they're not. How many bad goals have we seen this year?

I got to tell you, the power play. Honest to God, can you name one? No. And how many times this time last year did we go, what's Samsonov doing there? That's actually a funny thing to say. Can you name a bad goal, a goal he's given up? I'm trying to think of. I've watched a lot of hockey.

I'm trying to think. That's why I'm telling you. The couple of goals in the the blues game i didn't like the wallet and a couple sifters from the point that's the last we're 20 games in i know you can name me one or two that's it wild that's wild it's like that's the difference that's why they won last night not bringing their best yeah the the fundamental thing that's different for this team is you know everyone's talking about oh look at all these guys the leafs had out there without this guy this guy this guy this guy the thing that stayed the same through all this is 6d actually seven that have been the same seven okay this is something that i've been thinking about and i don't

know if i've brought it up to you guys before. Let me ask you this. The way they're playing now and all their advanced defensive stats and all of what they look like and how they're playing and you bring in the veteran general manager. You bring in the veteran gruff

head coach. Did this organization wait three years too long to do this? Is there part of me watching the way they're playing right now? I'm like, oh my head coach, did this organization wait three years too long to do this? Like, is there part of me watching the way they're playing right now? I'm like, Oh my God, they wasted three years of three of the best lease of all times primes by

trying new things and trying different guys and like betting on a rookie head coach in Sheldon Keefe, which he was at the time betting on Kyle Dubas as a rookie general manager. One of the most important times. Like, am I going too far here? No, you're too early on that. You're just too early for me. The one reason, you know, the big difference to me,

what looks all different, and I was kind of getting towards this point, is Tanev and Ekman-Larsen and even Hockenpah have changed how this D looks so drastically to me that that's what's so different. Go ahead. Yeah, two guys. Two guys. Yeah, Hockenpah have changed how this D looks so drastically to me. Yeah. That that's what's so different. Go ahead. Two guys.

Two guys. Yeah. Hockenpah was a bit of reach for you there. But that McCabe-Tanev pair, if you do like a lot of fancy sorting money podcasts, a couple things, whereas a pair, they're the best expected goals against pair in the NHL amongst pairs that have played like 200 minutes. They're the top five in respect. So they've been elite, elite, and that changes things for a team. I know what you're saying, Sammy, for sure.

And we've had conversations on Dubas and Sheldon Keefe up until the beginning of the Tree Living era going, like, if I would have picked a team that would look like Brendan Shanahan's kind of team knowing what he's gone through in his career this is it and what we saw in the past wasn't it so we always had the head scratching of of why is brendan shanahan trying to create this puck possession kind of east-west thing? I think he bought into the new. He got talked into it.

For sure. He bought into the it's going to be different new age. We're going to be ahead of the curve. We're going to be smarter than everyone. And who's the salesman on that one? That'd be Dubas, yeah. Yeah. See, the one thing I will say that runs contrary to this is, you know,

we're talking about the D and being rock solid and that being a fundamental difference. It wasn't like Dubas didn't know that. You know, like he went out and he got Jake Muzzin. He went out and he got Ilya Labushkin. He went out and he got Joel Edmondson. You know, they went out and got a bunch of guys to try to be this. He was Labushkin.

Edmondson was true living. It was Edmondson last year. But then Labushkin was the year before with Dubas. So they did it twice. Twice with Labushkin. But it was, it was not proactive. It was reactive.

Absolutely. It was after watching time and time again, somebody getting to the net or, then it was just like, In fairness, he didn't have all this

to draw on. You gotta go get somebody and it's like, no. Like, it was always not enough and catch up that's a fair point though like everything's great where you know kyle tried a lot of different things here and clearly none of it worked very well nice to come in go we know that

doesn't work and then having the that ability to be like kind of work off of that but what i'm getting at here is in two years of being here and one year of it being such a quick turnaround and him coming in here he's given them the best 1b situation in net he's given them the best d core they've ever had and he's I mean the forward core is incomplete it's been all injuries or whatever but like looking at and I don't even think Brad Trilliving's that great like I think he's just like a kind of a league average executive, and that's all it's taken. You wouldn't have known for sure that Stolarz was going to come in

and look like a MVP of the league the first 20 games. But I think it does help the situation you're talking about, the situation they're putting him in with their great defensive play. It's crazy. So, two, I got a fun stat for you um who do you think is last on the leafs and hits amongst players who played 5-10 games like just a regular player last on the leafs and hits i mean it's a weird one it's off it's i don't want to say i want to say you're going to give me like a, a, a Holmberg or a,

a Lawrence. I don't know. Chris Tana. Chris Tana. Okay. All right. D D D last on the Leafs and hits. But Sammy had this point.

I brought this up to Sammy before the show where he said he's never chasing the play. He's always stick checks body position between the player and the net. Shot blocking. He's in the lanes. He defends so well without running after guys. Even though he's physically strong, that's not really his nature. He is

tied for second most hits taken. He goes back on pucks first. He gets hit a lot. He's been hit a lot. Yeah. Just, you know. Yeah. He's been hit 41 times. You don't see him proactive taking the man out.

Yeah. And he is, it's just incredible in terms of how many pucks. They hit him all the time. Get a chance to get to the goalie. I know. It's crazy. And so, one more positive on the decor they um since matthews has been out and this is the team in general at five on five they've

allowed eight goals against or sorry nine goals against which is the fewest in the nhl no eight in the nhl eight eight sorry eight games eight goals against at five on five since matthews has been out which is the the best in the NHL. You know what the other side of that is? We will. Yeah, go ahead. The other side of this is they've scored nine five on five, which is also the fewest goals scored in the NHL.

Nothing is happening either way. No goals. To me, to me, having like the, you know, the fewest goals allowed is clearly incredible. And then when you take out maybe the best five on five goal scorer in the league from your team that accounts for a lot of goals like that's a very that's a big part of what the number is and you know they score a lot in the power play now they score when they need to they're half their line was missing of course they're not scoring a lot of five on five goals like they're they're missing all their forwards and all the guys they're plugging in they're saying just play defense fraser minton take care and nick robertson can't shoot it in a wide open net oh my god for nick robertson holy

crap all right um you guys want to say anything about mitch marner because if i do i'll just be driving the price up and we don't want to do that so i'm just going to be quiet and then i'll let you guys or do you want to just pass on mitch barner you should pass on today's price i want to say that every game that goes past where i watch him play and he's been brilliant in years uh past yeah wait for the playoffs no no it's not even what i'm getting at no no i listen i've said to you multiple times this year that they should just sign him like i've said it i've said it to you in years past. I've changed a little bit during playoffs a couple times.

But every time they play him now, and he's been brilliant without Matthews. Like, he is elevated like Malkin used to do when Sid was out, when Dreisel does, when McDavid. He's elevated. Every game that goes by without him signed, I get progressively more worried that he's going to leave and what the Leafs are going to look like. Like, I really, like, you know, it's mid-Nove to leave and what the Leafs are going to look like.

Like, I really, like, you know, it's mid-November here. The Leafs always light it up in November. This is, like, the number one time. I'd like to know their November record the last five years. One of my buddies texted me a couple of days. It was, like, 36-8-5 or something, like, earlier this week. They just light it up. But, you know, we're getting, you know, it's almost December, and he's this homegrown superstar, clearly flawed.

There's all this stuff with the market, but every game I'm like, oh, God, hey, no contract yet. He actually might be playing with Bedard next year. Like, I'm coming to grips with it. Yeah. And did you want to add something? No, I got nothing. I mean, you guys know my stance.

No, but I think we fans, fans and myself included are very hard on this guy i've always been hard on this guy like it started with me i've never liked london knights the whole deal from the start not a fan but you are gonna be a worse hockey team if he does not sign long term yes there is no question and sure he's had his moments in the playoffs where it's not gone great i know i've talked about them but the reality is there and you like sure you can go in free agency and try to sign these guys ask the bruins how that worked out well what i hope that's how their cap cap space figured out when you sign lindholm and zadorov and it's like oh you're below 500 what i hope doesn't get lost from our conversation on monday was the way that I started that conversation, which was the Leafs have messed this up.

And that's a point that I maintain to this day as he's a player you need to keep. There aren't that many of these guys. And the fact that it's at this point and now they're watching the cap go up and they're watching him have success and have the leverage at this point to say he's going to walk away

kills them and so they need to sign him you're just not going to get better when he's gone and so they've messed it up to this point but they may have to eat it a little bit and say it's going to cost a bit more than we and it should have we're not doing this

Mitch Marner literally has a lease over a barrel are you now Mitch Marner has a least over a barrel are you okay with now not being a little bit more and but being a lot more and still signing them uh you know it's one of those things where it's like i also believe that you can't have guys in the room who aren't putting the team first or difficult or repeatedly the person. Like, this guy has constantly been a challenge for the Leafs and for the fan base. So there's definitely a limit for me where I'm not just like,

now he's played good in November. You know, we've seen that before. How about you? Open the checkbook. I think I'm kind of, like, are you going to lose Mitch Marner over 500K per year? Like, are you thinking about that 500K per year like are you are you thinking about that 500k or extra million bucks are you thinking about that when he's 100 say the 500k take them

take some past matthews you okay with that listen at this point are you okay with that no absolutely not probably not no but if it's gonna either it that or losing him, then I'd probably do it. Then you're okay with it. I'm not okay with it, no, but I accept it. I accept it. Listen, I do lots of things I'm not okay with. You're saying don't lose him over paying him 500 above it. It's going to piss you off, but you're going to do it. If I'm Bradshaw Living, I've got my nose plugged while I'm signing it.

I'm like, I know what the reaction to this is going to be, but you're really going to lose a homegrown. That's not how you felt last week. Yes, it is. No, it's not. Listen, do I think he's. I gave you the number 1314. You shoo-shooed me away.

Now a week later, you're telling me do it, but plug your nose. Here's what I said. I still think Matthews is better, but with the way the cap's going up and all that stuff, I hate the numbers. There's no better or worse. It's just the eye of the beholder on better or for worse. It's what you need to do in a marketplace.

I know. That's it. And listen, like I said. And that was all my conversation. It's like, it's better or worse. Who cares what your opinion is better worse it's like what's it gonna take what's it gonna take and my stance on it is that if it's either he signs for a penny more than matthews and you know he stays or he saw or he leaves i'm gonna have to plug my

nose but i'm not i'm telling you right now, the perception of that in this market, maybe he doesn't even want that. Can we put to bed this whole crap of I got to see what he does in the playoffs first? Can we put that to bed? Why? Why would you do that? What are you talking about right now? God, are we really doing this again?

What are you talking about? I'm saying, do you want to sign him or you don't want to sign him? That's the point he's making, Borny. He's gone. He's gone. No, there's no waiting for the playoffs. It it's not that's not the way it works we're going to treat you like crap until you prove me otherwise the blast and then we're going to welcome you with open arms it doesn't work that way because i mean listen the way it's going to go after the playoffs

either he rips it up where they finally brick uh brew bay's got the magic potion and they actually get passed and everyone's like oh great oh and then it's like he's cost 15 million now or they stink again and no one wants him so there's just i just i don't get why it's so complicated here like if he's so they have their internal cap with mats, which we discussed on Monday. And to me, that is a hard line for them. And if you wanted more than that, then he can go. And if there's numbers underneath that he's cool with, let's do it. If not, then it's like there's so much more politicking and grinding and feelings involved.

It's like being in a relationship with someone who's too challenging. It's like, I just would rather not do that. But it's not like politicking is one thing and just business is the other. And it's just, it's supply and demand. It's how badly you want something, how much you're willing to pay for it. Where's the politicking in all of this? Well, it's whatever they do to get the media to. Oh my God. There's no media. There's nothing. We're the media to oh my god there's no media there's

nothing we're the media hey i got news for you guys nobody gives a crap what we say nobody they don't care about social media they don't care about us we cannot influence nothing it's what is it worth to you what is it worth to brendan shanahan what is it keith pelly mlsc what is he worth to you not us not social media the politicking that you guys think about it doesn't work see this is ridiculous because we talk about this stuff on the show all the time and it's concerned and all we get back from you is, oh, this market is so hard on him. The social media is so hard on him. This market's so hard on him.

It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with business. It's emotional. No, it's emotional. That's an emotional element to what can go can factor in his decision making. But it's not business. It's not business. Yeah.

So then what are you saying right now you are saying i'm saying i think they may have to just open up the checkbook and just say to my point i told you guys last week number one priority do whatever it takes to sign a guy number two is try to get the best price number three don't let one affect the other and like i mean i hate to say that I agree, but I do agree. Like, I hate it. I hate it. Like I said, right?

I would love to go back to the end of playoffs and listen to what you said about him then. I know, but... And then the other stuff could factor in. Mitch could sit there and go, you know what? I made $70 million already. Yeah. It's not about that. I'm just tired of being watched and blamed.

And then all that stuff can factor in. What about this? Is there any chance that this market is so hard on him that they could trade him? That they could actually get someone who they think suits them better for playoffs? That they could have assets? Well, sure.

On the way here, is this a guy, because coming into this year, some of the talk was, could we, you know, is this a guy who it's going to be so miserable on? You talked about it with Tavares. you just say it sucks for you here.

Fans aren't happy. They can't do that because he is the engine right now. Do you think, right? He's the engine. Do you think, do you think he wants to stay here? I have no idea. No feeling. No sense.

I know he speaks the truth when he says, this is my hometown and I love it here, but I don't know in terms of what he's gone through emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually. I have no idea how it's affected him. Yeah. And it's been hard on him. I think it's probably been pretty hard on all of them.

Right? I don't know. But did we just do it again? No, that was better. That was better. I did my very best not to say anything. That was progress. I thought we still were a little disagreement,

but we were a little bit more, like, you're right. Here's what I think happens. Here's my honest opinion. I was going to say, like, maybe Dr. Dana helped us last week. That I mean, here's what I think happens. Here's my honest. I was going to say like, like maybe Dr. Dana helped us last week. That's right. Here's what I think happens. I think that sometime in the next month or so,

I think he signs eight times. Like it's probably 12, seven, five or 13. That's what I think happened. I think we get a report is just done and we move on and everyone is rooting for the Leafs and Marner and off you go. Is that off of a eight game winning streak what does that mean it means like if you're

if you're having a bad month people are gonna but do you think that you know what i'm saying how much but here's the question yeah and then how much can the price go up or down because everybody knows who he is everyone knows how good he is everyone knows how great he is in the regular season how much can the price go up or down point Because everybody knows who he is. Everybody knows how good he is. Everybody knows how great he is in the regular season. You're right. How much can the price go up or down? My point being, like, the range is not that big here. No. Of what he's going to earn. So, I don't know.

Just let him earn it. So we don't have to talk about it anymore. Well, up until now. We did this with Nylander, by the way, right? We did a lot of this with Nylander when he went through it. Oh, yeah. Right? Oh, we did a lot of it.

And it's not going away. And it will be a distraction until you wake up or we wake up one day and say, it's done. And I honestly think that would be the best thing for the Marners and the Maple Leafs if it's just like, it doesn't have to be miserable for people, you know? So 13 times eight, you're good good now right like you clearly picked the

high end of that and i'm gonna leave i'm biting my club hard no it's okay 13 times eight here's me it's okay i'm plugging the nose you guys are doing it now i'm plugging the nose i'm plugging the nose uh all right let's get craig br on Marner. Clip four, Derek. Like every one of our listeners, they checked out. I think it's business as usual. I think, you know, even, you know, early on in the year, you know, he was playing really good hockey for us in all situations, not just scoring and everything. I find he's shooting a little bit more, which is great.

I think he can still shoot more. But, you know, he's doing a real good job for us. It's funny that he shot into the left side of the net, but it was actually high glove this time. He just only ever goes low blocker on his shots. Raised it a bit for a switch goal it's weird but anyways it does sound like matthews wants to play wednesday night and there's just not a chance that you could start him with mitch martyr together wednesday

night no so no i don't not not for my not for me not for me i think it's crazy how good tavarez looks like there was a play last night where a Utah player's bringing the puck behind the net in the Leafs end. He zips down low, cuts him off, runs him into the boards. They break the puck out. I was like, what? Yeah. Glorious amulet.

He can't take anything away. He's pushing hard. He's wearing six amulets. He is. It's a contract. Think he wants one soon, too, or what? It's just natural. These guys, they know.

I mean, this could be the ideal scenario for the Leafs. It could be. Where he's lighting it up in a contract here and then. And then go get him some help though at the center ice position because they're going to need a third. They're going to need a one, two, three. I can't watch another game of Pontus at center. I know we've been high on the stuff he does. No, no, no. They're going to have to go. They're going to have a one two three i can't watch another game of pontus at center i know we've been high on the stuff he does no no no they're gonna have to go off they're gonna have

to go get somebody and then if it gets a little heavy then you can have someone push off a little bit for john because john listen say what you will about john and i i'm the first guy to say you know sometimes the skating's not there or he doesn't pass the puck as well as i'd like but that that guy has got a real heavy stick, man. Like he's got one of the strongest sticks you'll ever see. And he can still find a way to produce. And if you can find a third centerman between the three of them, I think it may be enough to push hard in the playoffs.

Pretty good pass to Marner on the breakaway too. Yeah. How many times have we seen Marner in the playoffs. Pretty good pass to Marner on the breakaway, too. Yeah. How many times have we seen Marner in the last eight years like sniffing up there? Not very often. Not very often. No. Not very often.

It was good recognition. He saw that Tavares had won the, got the puck below the goal line and off he went. Great pass. I was thinking about this as a so-so. We got to go. But why was two-line pass ever a rule? Really was a buzzkill.

Don't absurd rule of all time. There's some nights I wish it was back. What? Are you talking? Why? I'm just saying, because sometimes it's like chip and chase and ping pong. Did that long stretch chip dump in,

which I hated. Okay. It's sometimes it gets a little, it can get a little, when the D aren't sleeping, like Utah last night, it can get a little ping pong-ish. Okay, let's take a quick break. When we come back, Joshua Cloak from the Athletic Leaf writer

will join us. We'll get into a ton more, including Alex and Willie. We didn't even mention that. The Wee Willie Brothers. We didn't mention anything. Is that, you guys really want to go heavy on that one? Alex and Willie. We didn't even mention that. The Wee Willie Brothers. We didn't mention anything. Yeah, we didn't. Is that, is that, you guys really want to go heavy on that one?

The kneelander thing? Yeah. Heavy is probably not the right word. I thought it was super sweet. It's the first brother since, what, like 40 years or something? I don't care. All right, we'll get into it after the break. Super sweet conversation coming up after the break.

Hey, it's Ailish Forfar. And I'm Justin Cuthbert. Join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night. It's the Fan Pre-Game, 6 p.m. weekdays on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, The Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to The Real Kipper and Boren Show.iprios justin born sammy mckee and let's welcome in joshua cloak leaf writer for the athletic regular on our show for those of you that cannot see him on zoom nice jersey thank you when did i get regular status how does one get regular status i've been pining for that great it's like the olympics once every four years if you make it on our show

you're a regular okay so that's a pretty low bar i don't feel that good about it now you know who's got a high bar is the leafs these days so if if we look at the half a dozen regulars out including their superstar austin matthews and they've got the record that they have, and I ask you, what's the main reason why? Your first thought goes to where? Yeah, probably Mitch Marner and William Nylander. That's the obvious one. Like, we can talk about them, you know, buying in

and checking more and being really, you know, having really locked things down defensively. And that's important. The goaltending is important too. But as simple as it sounds, you win games by scoring more than the other team. And they wouldn't be doing that without Mitch Marner and William Nylander.

And I know the Mitch Marner, you know, topic of conversation is a constant one around these parts. But like, boy, he's really set himself up. And like you push it forward too. Does the success that they've had without Austin and the fact that, you know, William and Mitch are really carrying things right now. Does that not make you want to explore balancing those guys on three different lines when Austin comes back?

That's where my mind goes. I don't know where you guys are at because when he does come back, things are going to look a little bit different. I don't know if you should be breaking up Mitch and, and John Tavares right now, just the way that they're playing that, that, you know,

the idea of putting those three guys on three different lines, that's my kind of big takeaway. I don't know where you guys are at. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, any line that Willie's's on he can kind of make an effective line right doesn't seem to matter um but you did mention the goaltending one thing fascinating i think over the eight games since matthew's been out the leafs goaltending is a 942 save percentage

uh next best in the league over that time is 928 they're 929 they're running away with it so does the way that joseph wool has looked changed things at all it felt like we were just gonna settle into stole ours is the guy and wools his backup are we sure about that we're not sure about that and you know i'm a regular you guys know i'm a joe wall guy and i always have been like this is a guy with incredibly high-end talent you talk to goalie people around the league, they all say the same thing. If he can figure it out and stay healthy, he's a top 10 goalie in the league. And you just see the Leafs in front of him looking a lot more relaxed.

I know that there's times, especially last season, there were constant questions about whether or not he can stay healthy. But he just has that, that game breaking ability. And I just think that he, you know, he's your guy long-term, right? Like if,

if, if he falters, sure. But there's, even if there's questions about who's the number one right now, there's no question about who's the number one long-term. And I think it probably took Joe wall some some time to to kind of remember that to start the season and now that he's in that frame of mind like he looks like a top 10 goalie in the

league um so yeah like we'd be remiss not to kind of give a lot of credit to the goaltending um they the leafs now have organizational goaltending depth. Like, I don't remember the last time they had depth like this. Do you guys? It gives Leafs fans the ability to breathe a sigh of relief because you always knew, you know, over the last few years, you'd go, yeah, but can Freddie do it in the playoffs? Yeah, but Jack Campbell seems like one bad game away from, you know, disappearing. And Ilya Samsonov, he was very open

about his struggles. There just seems to be a calm about the Maple Leafs goaltending. And again, like you guys know, like when was the last time we were able to say that? You follow the Marlies as well. Is it Aktyomov and Hildeby? They're both having like high-end

seasons, right? I mean, I'm thinking of potential trade ships here as you move towards the deadline when you have four goalies and you have no assets. Why does everyone go to trade ship for Hildeby and Akhtyamov? Pronunciation, flawless, by the way. Awesome. But why does everyone say that? For me, the guy that you might want to move is Matt Murray, right?

Because he's a little bit more proven and he's a guy that like, if you're a team that has goaltending questions and you're like, we lack that, that, you know, solid number two, because I truly believe Dennis Hildeby is the number three in the organization right now. I really do. Me and our boy, Jonas Siegel had many heated debates about this but i really believe he's the guy um he's another goalie of the future for them so i don't know why you would be quick to to flip these guys because we've seen for generations it's so hard for the leafs to find

goaltending why are we so eager to get rid of him? Because there's other teams, Joshua, that understand that he is the number three and Matt Murray really isn't. And that's the appeal. That's the value. That's what's going to bring you value back is giving up some value. And that would be my focus if I'm another team.

It wouldn't be on Matt Murray, especially if I'm a team that isn't quite ready to contend just yet that's the guy I circle I don't disagree I can you get that really really good number three center you want for two like one of two AHL goalies right now I just think it's gonna be some high end yes yeah yeah you can yep yep you can well i still don't think you do that because like you have stole arts for two years um you're still again i'm a joe wall guy but you you're still not gonna know if he's gonna be able to stay healthy for a while now um and like you're all you're always gonna need you you gotta give these guys time

to figure it out and figure out what they're gonna be aktyamov in particular like he's seven games into his ahl career he has two shutouts he's got a glove hand that is nhl ready and the leafs have just done such a good job and i hinted at this before of finding goalies who are level it was almost as if you know the campbells and the samsonovs just that was a wake-up call throughout the organization find boring goalies find guys that you like when the temperature gets cranked up they're just gonna stay even keel and that's what you see with all of these guys. There's almost no personality to them. And I don't mean that in a bad way. There's no kind of room for them to fly off the handle. So, like, Kipper, you're right.

Like, I think when we get closer to writing these articles about who are the Leafs going to want to trade, they're not going to trade Cowan, they're not going to trade Mitten. Those guys, you know, are tough to find too. The Hildebees and the Akhtumovs will be towards the top. But, like, I just think for the sustainability of the organization, you can't move them. I know I'm probably in the minority there. So we know that they are going to get healthier soon this week at some point,

whether or not it's Wednesday or Saturday. Nyes will be back. Matthews will be back Domi will be back when it's maybe when maybe at some point yeah who once they start getting healthy Joshua who's on the outside looking in well probably much to the chagrin of Leafs Twitter it's probably Gribyankin is going to be on the way out. As great a story as he's been, you look at him and you're like,

wow, this looks like a real exciting player in two years. This looks like a real exciting player if he can figure out how to play within a team structure. Because you guys have watched him, you can't take your eyes off him because you don't know what he's going to do.

He's so unpredictable on the ice. And that's just not a Craig Brubé player right now. I wonder if Fraser Minton sticks. I really do. Because if you're looking for like a bottom line center, don't you just want someone that is safe and you can trust? Like he's working on finding the offense and that's the piece really missing. But the trust factor is there.

They put him on PP1. Like there's something there. They like him. They like him a lot because you put him out there and you don't, you're not worried that like the wheels are going to fall off. I'm inclined to think he sticks. Someone like Pontus Holmberg is still not there yet, so that's one I wonder about.

But the organization really, really likes Fraser Mitten, and frankly, I know it's a small sample size, but I think I can see why. Yeah, they kind of threw him to the wolves. I mean, they started him threw him to the wolves. I mean, they started him in the D zone heavy. I think scoring chances were terrible, like 15-4 when he was on the ice.

And not that he didn't look good. They just put him against good competition, starting in the D zone. They gave him a handful to deal with. Part of me wonders, like, for the good of the organization and the good of development, you want to get Minton right. Does Alex Steeves actually have the best chance the good of the organization and the good of development you want to get mintin right is does alex steves actually have the best chance of being a mainstay with this team all the way he's running into bodies he's older he's lighting it up in the american league like is he a guy you could put on

a fourth line and actually get a bit of offense from while doing the right things yeah alex steves looks a lot different than the alex steves that came up over the last two seasons. And you were kind of like, like, OK, this is a bandaid for now. Like, I know for a fact, Alex Steves got very excited when Tree Living and Brubé took over because he told me repeatedly in training camp. He's like, I think I got that dog in me and I want to let it out. Did he say that? I want to let it out. He literally said that. I'm really frustrated. I didn't wedge it into a story somewhere. He's like, but I got that dog in me and I want to let it out. He literally said that. I'm really frustrated. I didn't wedge it into a story somewhere. He's like, but I got that dog in me and I want to let it out.

And so you can see him doing that. Like you want players that adjust to what the coaches want. And you see that out of Alex Steves. I think, you know, it's just he hasn't really popped offensively. Like he's an energy guy and that's great and that works but i i just don't know if like i just don't know if the high-end tools are are there and like you can say the same about fraser mitten offensively i'm sure but he is so good defensively like just to bring it back to him like i i was watching him in practice the other day and just like honing in on him he

does so many things that you don't see eight-year veterans in the nhl do defensively little things like you know coming in on the rush he's tying up the defenseman stick just like it's second nature right and and these are things that take a long time for players to learn um and i just think again there's a trust level there with Alex Steves. He's the type of player, again, a lot of energy, needs to get hot and needs to start scoring. But I guess if we're ranking,

yeah, I'd go Minton, Steves, and way down there, Grubjankin right now. Josh, really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining the show, pal, as always. I'm a regular. I have to. You are a regular. You want the same contract as Doug

McClain? Ask for a better one. Okay, I'll take all of this into consideration. This is good. I'll let my agent know. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Coach. Take care, guys. Joshua Cloak, Leaf writer for The Athletic and

good guest to have for our show. Just quickly, I saw Elliot Friedman send out a bit of a bombshell tweet. Was that this morning or last night about Kreider and about Trouba, about how they're looking to shake things up in New York or whatever? Either of those guys make sense in Toronto? Would they trade them to an Eastern Conference rival? Mike? Is there a Mike?

As I said, how does that happen? How do you have names that big get thrown into the mix? What's their team, 12-7 or something like that? And they get two giant names on the team? Listen. Trade bait? Trying to throw a little grenade into that room i know that uh that mac or uh that uh crider's considered you know top top guy right now in the league but max patch ready came in and did something that i didn't think he'd be able to do for the first six weeks you got to get him back before you think about crider

and upsetting that's a major trade that's a that's a significant move what are you worried about stepping on max patcher eddie's no i'm sitting there going you got a cheaper version of him right now what is crider's contract six Six something, isn't it? Six two. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not going to be looking to eat three one. They're both like six three. They could like right now Max Pacioretty is probably a better body checker than Kreider. I know Kreider is great, but like Nize is Kreider now for me.

Nize is Kreider. Totally agree. Kreider. So you don't need that. Also, let me ask you if this description fits something Kip would like for this show. Nine goals, zero assists. Cy Young. Cy Young. Yeah, Cy Young.

Okay, just get your thoughts on the soon-to-be-made-for-TV Willie and Alex Nylander game last night. You know, nice story. Alex had a couple of good chances. I thought the one he threw up into the collarbone was a good shot. You got some power play time? Do we want to hear from them at all?

I mean, I have a Nylander clip. These guys don't say anything of the best at times. But it's nice for TV, I guess. All right, all right. Isn't it? I think I don't have a brother. I have a sister.

I don't know the brother dynamic. It's nice. It was a nice story. For two guys to make it to the greatest league in the world and have them end up on the same sheet of ice playing for the same hockey team. They're also besties. It's pretty amazing.

They're long time, not just brothers. These two are legitimate. They call each other best friends. But it's going to hurt a lot when three guys come back and Alex is on waivers. Probably not going to be great for the relationship. At least they got to play together on the Leafs. Feel good story, I guess, for the family.

It's great. Right? I mean, Alex has struggled. He's on his fifth team. The thing is, Alex is, you know, what do you have, 15 goals in the NHL last year? 11 in 23 games last year, Alex had. And they never kept him. They didn't keep him.

And they're Columbus. God, I can't tell you i didn't notice that yeah if they can't use you if they can't use a guy who scores 0.5 goals per game then again this could be a fair criticism of columbus yeah but i will note columbus beat boston tampa bay and car Carolina this week. We're good. Sammy, you mentioned it earlier in the show, but, I mean, you do feel for Nick Robertson. Like, this guy's shooting everything at moves now, eh? It's like he is trying so hard to get this monkey off his back. I don't even disagree with, like, the coach and the GM

who are like, he's playing pretty well. Like, he's... He draws penalties. I mean, he's always being cross-checked and i draw penalties in the nhl too because i get knocked over a lot yeah i felt i pretty i feel bad for uh lamaru was it that got him on the first one like that was a stock cross check in front of the net like nothing there the second one he buried him but the first one he just kind of fell over and the ref keeps bailing out i think he leads the team and drawing penalties because he falls i mean if you

fall over seven times a game hopefully you get a couple penalties you know who used to draw a ton of penalties because they didn't skate great was remember freddie goche he was like six five and the guys would like knock him over because he didn't skate great and arm would go up he's six five it looks big but they gotta start going in for Nick. Listen. Let's listen. Clip six, Nick Robertson. I thought Nick, he had a good game, though. Worked extremely hard.

You know, was in the right spots defensively and did his job. Had some looks and he didn't go in. I mean, he's just got to stick with it. It's going to go in eventually for him. We all feel for him, you know, and we want him to put the puck in the net. And he's just, I mean, it's not easy. I wouldn't know anything about it because I didn't worry about that. But, I mean, he's the type of player that wants to score goals,

and that's part of his job. But, you know, he did some real good things tonight, even though he didn't score. Did he? There's got to be some team he can go to that can just use him. I'm so excited. Much like after Marner signs, I'm so happy to not have the conversation.

And much like Nick Robertson going to play for Columbus, I can't wait, boy, Scott. I can't wait. Might be somebody mid. Doesn't have to be the worst team in the league. Go to a mid team? Okay. Or a mid team.

Or whatever it is. I just can't wait for it. Can't wait. All right. Barely halfway through the show. Matthew's going to play Wednesday? I think he wants to. I think no.

I think no. Everyone says yes, but I say no. He's trying. The incentive. Tomorrow will be key. You miss one game, you get another week off. Tomorrow's practice will be key, I think, for him. But I think he wants to, and it's a good game.

It's an important game. And then it's like, hey. Oh, they got seven guys, but they're better without him. Our thanks to Joshua Cloak in this Leaf edition of our show. We go national next. Welcome in Andy Strickland. We'll talk Jim Montgomery, St. Louis Blues, and plenty

more.