Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Matinee Meltdown

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee kick things off looking back on the Maple Leafs' overtime loss to the Blackhawks this afternoon. The trio focus in on Matthew Knies' fit on the top line, how the team should manage their goalie tandem in back-to-back games, Mitch Marner's usage, Conor Timmins' ceiling, and the team's depth contributions. Later, we hear Sheldon Keefe's reaction to his team's performance in Chicago on today's "Kyper's Clippers". After the break, the fellas look ahead to tonight's slate of NHL action in Gametime presented by Bet365, before heading to the text-line to read your questions and comments! The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in. Abbreviated version of the real Kipper and Bourne show. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. We are live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet Plus, and Sportsnet 590, The Fan. And this hour will be brought to you, of course, by Bet365. You can always download us wherever you get your pod 15 games on tap the national hockey league on this black friday day after

american thanksgiving eight of those this afternoon we'll focus on the Toronto Maple Leafs blowing a 3-1 lead. As Sammy has put in my lineup to the lowly, lowly Chicago Blackhawks. 4-3 in overtime. Kevin Korchinski with the overtime winner. Wasn't this supposed to be put to bed that the Leafs give up points during the regular season to these lesser teams we'll start with you JB I mean supposed to be put to bed years ago but it just isn't the reality with this group for whatever reason you know the worst part about that was the

Blackhawks didn't look good they didn't play well you know that was just Leafs went up 3-1 and now we'll just kind of hang on and see this thing through, and you let them hang around. Just really a bad hockey game today. A bad hockey game all around. Wasn't that thrilling? I know it went to overtime, and the OT was pretty exciting, but Leafs didn't play well.

It looked like watching an ECHL game where the puck just kept changing directions. Not a pretty sight. The ideal three-on-three of how it ends up looking for the league is what it ended up looking like today, where it's just stretched out and it's going back and forth. There's breakaways. There's two-on-ones. Coaches are like, did we have any structure, any plan?

There's Willie Nylander hitting all three irons on the net. So, yeah, it wasn't exactly a Mona Lisa today. We will obviously put the hour together, focus on this hockey game. We'll maybe get to a podium with the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are just coming off the ice. Showers. We'll get some sound in. We'll get their thoughts.

Is there any leeway from you guys to suggest well they're coming off a tough no don't do this there wasn't there wasn't enough time they traveled right away i listen i'm just yeah i'm i'm not i'm not even sure i'm buying what i'm saying i'm saying is there a chance for the narrative to set in as we start getting sound postgame sound from the podiums that this was not an easy one for us. Let's kill it right now because Morgan Riley himself came out and said, we're back now. That's over. You know, the Detroit Red Wings, did they go to Sweden? Yeah, they did.

Then they came home and beat New Jersey. They beat the Brakes off them 4-0. Today they beat the Boston Bruins. So, yeah, we're going to not give them a pass. Hey, listen, I just threw it out there. Okay? How dare you suggest that they don't do that? My thoughts, exactly.

These are professional athletes who are in the prime of their lives, who are paid lots and lots of money to get over things like this. They had two days off at the start of the week. They haven't played in a week. I think that is being put to bed. Fair expectation. Okay. You, Kipper?

Oh, no, I'm not. I don't give him a pass. Okay, okay. No, the pass is over. I was just about to ask you in general, if Leaf fans don't get to blame john klingberg in any of this where do you go first off of what we witnessed over 60 plus minutes yeah i think that's a an important question you know there are people who are going to look at this game kip and say

the leafs controlled everything statistically in that game. You go through some of the stats after the game and I won't bore you with them, but slot shots, high danger chances. The Leafs blew them out of the water. I suggested to you earlier that they probably had the majority of those in the first five, seven minutes of the game.

They did. The game ended with 17-6 in high danger scoring chances for the Leafs. 22-10 in slot shots. So they had plenty of chance to put them away, but they didn't put them away. And I'll go first on playing the blame game, which is their top line.

Matthews, Marner, Nyes. Minus two. They were all minus two. Nyes, to me, is really struggling. They couldn't connect on anything out there. This team just feels like if the top guys don't go it doesn't happen for the uh second consecutive uh part of our week we get to spend a time together watching a game sammy was a lot better i'll give him a ton

of credit yeah i mean towards the end i was getting a little sour at the end yes you were yeah yeah but i'm a little fired up. I give you some window on that. Thank you. You had mentioned during the game that you weren't a big fan of knives, knives on that line and maybe bringing them down. Yeah, you just got to do something to alleviate the pressure. He only played 14 and a half minutes for a guy who's playing on the top line. You can tell the coach doesn't love getting him out there all that much it just a lot of hope plays turnovers like he

doesn't seem to be able to he doesn't have the puck for any extended period of time i think it's affecting that line's ability to have the puck a lot in the offensive zone and i don't know who it is but it just that that's not working for me right now. Do you see that or am I on an island there? You guys know where I've stood with Matthew Nyes. I know you love the player. I love the player, but too much too soon. Often I see Matthews and Marner change.

He's still out there. And I just think that at times putting a guy that fresh out of college with a responsibility to run shotgun with $10 million players on a number one line on a team that's supposed to contend for a Stanley Cup might be too much to bite off. Yeah, you know, there's a chance there where they're kind of on a two-on-one, him and Marner, and instead of him skating in, like he has a clean lane to look and to shoot, he's kind of trying to get it to Marner and sift something through

getting cute and it's like it just you mentioned at the time that maybe the pressure playing those guys like he wants to get it to them and that's probably not his natural setting I think when it first started it just came firing out of the gates and it was so good like didn't they score didn't he score two in the first game he was really good in the top line for the first couple games with them and i think it's just gonna it's a lot like kipper said it's too much too soon this kid's up there it's some point you're gonna feel it yeah he's starting to feel it now and i think it's either do you ride it out and hope it goes back up the other way or do you put him down a little bit give him a bit of a break

and then try it back up there later because i don't know which way you go and i just don't know who you would replace him with well i guess it would be bertuzzi but you don't want to do that to the second line because they've looked good but now he's finally starting to come around he's playing better than that line didn't score might be the opening to do it yeah toronto maple leaves once again dropping a 4-3 game against the lowly Chicago Blackhawks in overtime. If you're just joining us, Real Kipper and Bourne, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Where are we on Samsonov? We had a conversation earlier this week on where would we go on back-to-back games.

I had suggested that I would like to have seen Samsonov against Pittsburgh, but I'm not sure now based on the fact that we saw. You might have two points if you did. We saw some progression in Samsonov's game come out of Sweden. Was this afternoon a setback for you not just a setback but it like reframed sweden for me where the game he was in he didn't see a ton of challenging shots and still let in one he didn't love but that dickinson one was a killer the first one that dickinson he had three the first one yeah it's one nothing I think it was saying slot shots are 11-0 Leafs.

They're humming. And just a low angle. Short side. Short side. Like, just that is the type of thing that when you're not getting goal tending, it's deflating. It's just like, ugh. It legitimately looked like it went through his blocker.

Yeah. Like, it was just, it should have hit him right in the middle of the Leaf, and it just somehow went in. And it does kind of feel like that changed it. Yeah. Like, I know they were. Then it was like they're gonna hang around yes for sure but no it's not it wasn't a good night for him i get a body language from him where i can almost feel if he feels he's good and and feeling it and in in a rhythm like we've seen so many signs over the course of last season and in that tampa bay lightning

series where like good sammy's good sammy yeah and we just there there's there just hasn't been any stretches right from day one in training camp here and today early and especially off that dickinson goal it's like that that there's no concern last year about him like that not like where we're seeing him this season does feel different it does and you know it i think people maybe think that sometimes we come in here and react off the outcome but you know we discussed a lot of during that game even when it was 3-1 for the Leafs we were saying he's giving up three tonight like it was we openly were discussing how the Leafs were going to have to get to four because just he wasn't hanging on to rebounds he wasn't freezing the puck he was scrambling um you do you feel it with him a little bit in game that it's like man you don't you don't trust

this guy tonight and I think that probably affects how they defend a bit of time yeah you just can you do you feel it with him a little bit in game that it's like man you don't you don't trust this guy tonight and I think that probably affects how they defend a bit of time yeah you just can tell very early yeah I don't know if that's the case with all goalies I feel like maybe it is a little bit of that but you could tell quite early and I guess when you let in a stinker like that it's pretty easy to say that but no he is very can tell what it's gonna to kind of be like. And it just is an existence as a fan when every puck is going towards your net, regardless of the part of the ice it's coming from that it has a chance to go in.

It's not a very fun thing to watch. And I, that's the way I felt today. We've got a one hour show here on the real Kipper and Bourne show. It's the leaf edition. So send us your texts. If you're out there a little frustrated or love, team reaction here. What did you say? Love on this Friday.

You guys want to take some calls? Text 590. 590. I do not. Where do you live, Sammy? So I can say we've got Sammy from where? Oh, yeah. Toronto. West End.

From the West End. Say one of the West Ends. Too specific there. Willie Nylander's streak ends, and it was flirting as one of the better ones To start an NHL season in history Yeah What did you see out of Willie and Tavares?

We commented on Marner and Matthews Did they finish minus two, those guys? Who's that? Matthews and Marner They were minus two, yeah You just can't have that against the Chicago Blackhawks. No. Willie's line was pretty not much to it.

They were even. Tavares had five shots, which was sneaky. I didn't really see that. But I didn't even really notice them a ton. They opened the game really good. A couple of chances. Loved Bertuzzi in the first period. And then I thought just kind of went away.

Obviously, Willie had the chance in OT to extend his point streak and to get him to win there but i don't know i just pretty ho-hum game from them i thought yeah i would like to see in a game like this and i think marner and matthews know it's just it's not even like they were overwhelming with chances or like they just felt like they were not pushing against a team where it's like they're not even borderline AHL team. No, you're just waiting for it to happen. This is what I mean about the top guys. It's like they're an okay team that has three of the best players in the world, and you think at some point they're going to get those chances,

and when they don't come, it's a close game. Again, you're the analytic guy, and I'm sure there's maybe a list out there. There might be some numbers that would suggest I either don't know what I'm talking about or supports this comment. It just seems that, and tonight or this afternoon was another prime example where I saw Chicago a lot with the puck. And I don't know where it compares to years prior on matthews and marner if they're just if they just have the puck less uh chicago had more ozone possession time

than toronto tonight so i mentioned the slot shots and all the least dominant in all those things chicago actually had the puck more in their end. Like, Marner just doesn't have, this season, Marner doesn't appear to be having as much success as we've seen him over a very long and prosperous career as a Toronto Maple Leaf. This feels to me like this is the least amount I've seen him with the puck on his stick. Involved.

I said to you tonight, I can't remember the last time he would have played 18 minutes. It has happened a couple times this month, but, you know, in the last one, two, three, four, five, six games, he has four games with no points. Mitch Marner. Like, that seems impossible for a guy who's a 100-point player. You're right.

He just hasn't seemed as involved 18-15 tonight. Well, he's turning the puck over a ton today. Yeah, him and Matthews turning the puck over. Well, the one Dickinson's, I think, tying goal early in the third period. The McCabe bump out front goal. The McCabe, and we've seen them with that bump out time and time again.

It's not always the right play. But I don't know. Sometimes it just feels like, and it was to Matthews, that the team, and I'll maybe point the finger at Marner a little bit here too. Like the constant trying to get him the puck maybe is just too predictable now. Yeah, if that's what you think it is,

that it's him there instead of someone else. But, you know, when I talk about this team looking to get these guys, you know, they either go or the team doesn't win, you could see why they'd be like, well, we better get it to them then. But they get goals tonight from Robertson, Yarncroft, and Ryan Reeves.

Ryan Reeves scored, fellas. And, you know, they couldn't get one from their their big four guys so yeah probably the difference yeah i you know there's a lot of things that come off this game and if like you said you're like don't want to be like mr negative but they just felt like their the worries that you had with this team just really showed up play down to a bad team yeah which they've loved to do the top guys you know when they don't get a it going they kind of lose and even though they did get some contributions and their decor is just like you know it's we how many conversations we have in the boardroom about their

their d well connor timmons is so nice to have him back at 1.1 you know a pretty good player but he's essentially john klingberg but cheaper you'll take if you have to have klingberg you'll take him at one one instead of four one so that's an upgrade but i saw some defensive hiccups and and yeah and another one was him and um who's his partner lagason lagason both getting caught behind the net which it's not like we've never seen that before, but when you got one guy really with his head down fishing for the puck like Timmons, it makes it a lot easier for a team like Chicago to score.

And listen, I get he had a really good training camp and he produced a lot of points. And he hasn't played them. Before he got hurt. But that's pretty consistent on where he's been challenged in his NHL career as a defenseman. Yeah, it is. In his own zone.

Yeah, I would say that it was pretty consistent with what I saw last season from Connor Timmons. Yeah, that looked like about what he looks like. Yeah, it's all like, oh, that guy was off for a really long time. Kind of just, that's what I remember him looking like. And, you know, we joked about the new toy thing where it's like, oh, you know, I'm interested to see what Connor Timmons. And it's like, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, that toy we had. Refurbished. I'm familiar with this. Ryan Reeves did get that goal. Do you want to talk about the fourth line? Yeah, for sure. Nine minutes, 38 seconds of ice time, which I don't know, probably is right around his average.

I mean, there's no question that Sheldon Keefe has tried his best to keep him involved to start the season. It spiraled downhill with the constant dashes got a goal today you could see the the relief on him we heard him in a first intermission second intermission interview about uh the weight of the world coming off his shoulders and then we got into the third period. As we watched together, I mentioned to you that this is where a third or fourth line may need to kind of slow it down a little bit.

Chicago's coming on, and sure enough, Reeves got involved, Gregor got involved. Listen, it may have not saved the game, but at least it gave a different look than the one that suggested, oh, let's just wait for mitch or austin or nylander to make a a great one-on-one goal it felt like a timeout remember i said at that point like when when they were up three two i said they need to time out they need to just like have a moment and that kind of provided a little break at the end of course

they still don't get it done but you pulled seth Seth Jones off the ice because of it. Yeah. It ended up being a pretty good trade, albeit for two minutes. But, you know, Seth Jones is... Useful. Useful and can skate a puck out of his own zone. Yeah, and we also said prior to re-scoring, he had played his best game as a... For sure.

He had been a useful contributor for them, too. Yeah, it felt like he missed way more games just because of the long stretch. Yeah, it's been two weeks. They've played twice. Yeah, so he missed three games. Yeah. Right?

Like, he missed the Saturday night against the Canucks and then the two in Sweden, and then he's back in. So it's not like he was out for a ton of games. It just felt so long because it was like a month between games. If you're McMahon in the press box, you're going, ah, what a score. But then he ends up even. Yeah, he did end up even.

No plus for him. All right, Derek Brandeo, do we have some sound coming out of the game? All right, let's go to Sheldon Keefe for our first Kippers Clipper. Sheldon, the team seemed to be in control for much of the night. As you reflect on it, how did the extra point get away from you guys? Didn't score enough early on our chances. Probably could have had two or three in the first few minutes of the game and didn't capitalize there.

We didn't give up a lot here today. It's among the least scoring chances we've given up on the season, but we scored three goals basically where we have a puck on our snooks in our end and then it's in our net. So that just made it easier for them. For the Matthews line, what made it tough for them to get traction offensively? Yeah, they just didn't have it.

And Nick Robertson out there, overtime he scored, what did you see? Dolmy Robertson gave us a lot here today. That line was good. Erkrank was good. Most of the night they were chasing them around with Bedard, and I thought they still did a good job with that matchup, scoring early for us.

We were trying to give them a chance to win the game there. They pulled all the paceoff, which Max won. Anyhow, it didn't work out for us, but those guys had a good game for us. I'm interested to know, Rob, when you scored a goal, does that mean you're going to see your team in the finals? Yeah, huge. The guys are happy for him, and it was great to see, too. It shows the impact he's having on the group,

and the guys are pulling for him. I thought he had a good night tonight. With the too many men penalties, are you starting to lose patience with that or is this more circumstantial stuff that you're seeing? No, I've lost patience. How do you address it? I've already addressed it. Is your view of Nylanders near missed there in the overtime?

Yeah, it just looked like it wasn't all right, you know. There was a lot of talk about the energy levels just with coming off Sweden. What was your sense of the group? Was that a factor at all tonight? I don't think so. We had maybe two of our best practices all season in terms of pace and tempo, competitiveness, so it showed me that the guys are past that. So that's not it.

That's not it. Thanks, Coach. Thank you, Sheldon. He didn't love it. I've cut a lot of Sheldon Keefe, and there's most nights he'll give you the time of day. Most nights he'll he's very professional, and he gives you long, drawn-out thoughts.

Today was not one of those days. He's trying to get back to the video. He was sour. But he didn't. It wasn't good. He wasn't rude, but you can just tell. No, he wasn't. But at some point, he's going to have to dig a little deeper and send at least a public message that,

okay, we're closing in on a quarter of a season here, and I've seen a handful of games that I've liked. I mean, it's tough, right? They're coming off four straight wins. They're playing tomorrow. I know.

I get it. But you lost to Chicago. Yeah. You got, please tell me you're a little bit more upset. Just a tad. Yeah. And I'll tell you what too i mean saying about too

many men where you lead the league now it's been addressed would i like them to say that's on me that's my bench and i know we've had this conversation before just he's got to wear that a little bit more which side i think you're you're oh i just totally disagree like you know in that moment he's telling the guys who's up next if they change like a-holes which they did you know it's like i don't know you're gonna hold the guys until it's time to go like it's there can i gripe about the give me a quick second on the gripe sure i think that think that it was a too many men, obviously. But I think it's just had zero bearing on the game.

It's a bat. Like the puck doesn't go deep. They go off. No one touches it. That's supposed to. It has zero bearing on the game. I know. I understand.

It's a sign of an undisciplined team. Hey. Okay? I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying. That particular call didn't feel like it was a too many. Not it was too many And I'm not just talking about the Leafs That's a thousand times that's getting called I understand that

I'm talking more of the rule I watch hockey all the time I see too many men's in other games We got a suggestion box at the door Just you know It's a ticky tack thing Zero bearing on the game It's like an offside review where thing. Zero bearing on the game.

It's like an offside review where they go back 15 minutes to check it. Zero bearing. It needs to be cleaned up. And that's your bench. Those are your guys. It's your bench. It's your responsibility. It's your responsibility. You know, he has lost his patience with it and has addressed it.

You know, whatever that means. Stop it. Stop doing that. I wonder what that conversation would be. Like, you guys got to get your heads out of your, you know, whatever that means. Stop it. Stop doing that. I wonder what that conversation would be. Like, you guys got to get your heads out of your, you know, The Bruce Boudreaux? Yeah, just. A lot of swearing.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Stop it. He seems to be good with a Domi, Robertson, Yarncroft line. Yeah, and I was too. I mean, they're doing everything. I think that they're... Didn't need him out there in OT for a minute and a half. Yeah, I kind of question that too.

Or at all. You're trying to keep up with the Joneses, the Bostons, and the Florida Panthers here. The extra point would have been nice. I'm not sure I would have had him out there. I'd rather take my chances of a shootout with my guys than give up a guy with inexperience. To be fair, those guys were way better than the top guys in this game.

They were better. You know, Robertson has an OT winner last year against Dallas. I guess the other aspect, and I said this earlier in the game when we were watching this, three minutes left, and they had the fourth line out there. Keith had the fourth line out there. We saw the Lagasin and Timmons pair. And I said, you know, it's game 18.

Like, it's a close game against the worst team in the league or the second worst team in the league in game 18. You've got to give guys a chance to play in high-pressure moments. They have to play. You've got to play. You've got to play and learn your way through some of this. And it also exposes, like like they're just not deep enough. They're just not deep enough. They're a pretty good team.

They're in the top third, but they're not. They're missing some pieces here. Yeah. I give Robertson full credit here. He's scrapping right now. He's fighting tooth and nail for every inch he gets for every puck he can get to the net and uh he's he's starting to build something i'm just not sure in the long term where you see this thing headed is it to the point where his stock's high enough that you move him?

That's got to be where you're heading. Is there any world of yours that envisions game one of the Stanley Cup final or Stanley Cup playoffs and your third line is Domi, Robertson, and Yarncroft? No. No. Oh, you didn't even let me finish that sentence. No. You didn't even let me spit it out. No. You didn't even let me spit it out. No.

No. No, there's none. They can't defend. They're not physical enough. It's not. You need a purpose, right? With every group, like the top lines are clearly go, control the puck, you know, outscore the other lines,

be our guys, whatever. The fourth line, you'd like them to be physical, forecheck, be able to defend. We don't trust you in the D zone. The fourth line, you'd like them to be physical, forecheck, be able to defend. We don't trust you in the D zone. The third line has to have some utility. And right now, it's kind of trade chances and maybe we'll get them some nights and maybe we won't other nights.

You go up against the best teams in the league, you can't have a maybe line, a hope line. You know, I've talked to Adomi, some turnovers. Robertson's kind of a hope guy. I thought Adomi's passing was really good tonight. Yeah, I think he has seven assists in the last seven games. He's like getting on the board. But he's passing so much.

Now getting outscored by Reid. Well, I know that's his, I know. It's a joke, but it's. I mean, it's not a joke. It's actually correct. He's got to work on finding the best opportunity to get a puck to the net too. Yeah. And sometimes if he's feeling it so much with, you know,

his dad used to call himself the Dishon Magician. I'm sorry, Ty called himself that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Sometimes we'd be like, oh, even in practice. Even in practice, we'd go down the ice and, you know, I ended up finishing off a play and he's like,

you got it from the dishing magician. Yeah, okay, thanks. So is it to the point where he's so confident right now moving the puck that it's his first instinct to just keep doing it? Sure, he's got 11 assists in 18 games. As a third liner, that's a fine output. But, you know, I look at his career stats. He's got 121 goals in almost 600 games, 598 games.

That's about a goal every five games. You know, he's almost played 20. He hasn't, I don't know how many shots the guy has, but it doesn't feel like there's moments where he's almost there. Had a really good chance in OT. Yes. That if he had had a little bit of his footing better, he could have cut to the backhand, maybe had kind of pushed it on net a bit.

He has 23 shots in 18 games now. Like, just over one per game. Yeah. How many minutes did that line end up getting, JB? Robertson didn't play very much. Robertson was 1240. Domi was 1251. And then Jaren Kroc was 1415. Because he took a couple

shifts with the fourth line. Yeah. So that probably on the penalty kill as well. Why don't we do a break? We'll do game time when we come back. Alright. How's that sound? More to come on the Real Kipper and Bourne show as the Toronto Maple Leafs drop a 4-3 overtime loss to the Chicago

Blackhawks. Game time is up next. You're listening and watching Real Kipper and Born. Diving deep into Leafs, Raptors, Jays, and NFL. The JD Bunkers Podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the real Kipper and born show. Nick Caprios,

Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, the one hour version of our show. Sammy, it's game time. Quick. It's our, Sammy, it's game time. It's quick, this hour. Yep, it's game time. It's game time presented by Bet365.

Visit the app for the latest odds and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19-plus on terror only. Please play responsibly. Got two games I'm looking at for tonight. Two really good ones. Lightning visiting the Hurricanes. And the Lightning are pretty big underdogs.

Plus 140 tonight in Carolina. And if you'll remember correctly, something we discussed yesterday or didn't discuss, Andre Vasilevsky returns tonight for the Tampa Bay Lightning. So pretty big, pretty good value on Tampa, really. I know they're probably worried about what Vasilevsky's going to look like in his return, but plus 140 is pretty good. Do we know that if Vasilevsky's injury was related to anything

that was built up over the last, I don't know, 6, 12 months? Like, was there a chance that... Got a sunburn from the red light in the first round. Yeah, like, or was this something that came on in the summer? Where's Vasilevsky for you? Do you think it's Scottie Pippen? Do you think it's I'm not messing up my summer? Is there a chance that he ends up looking a lot more human on his return?

There's a chance. The first time we've really seen him look human against the Toronto Maple Leafs last spring in the first round. Yeah. And the, the Leafs really took advantage of, you remember from distance, right?

A lot of shots through screens and traffic alone about it. Oh yeah, that's right. That was the, they knew he was weak there or something like that. Right. Not to look back totally on that, but he is probably the main

reason the Leafs won that series yeah that and Samsonov was pretty good Vasilevsky was legitimately terrible for most of that series so he must have been really hurt or like I mean he's played so much hockey but you do wonder if there is some cumulative effect of all these deep runs and 60 game seasons or whatever and this is the Leafs fans are going could he be bad now that would be really nice that'd be really nice. That'd be really nice. Probably not the case. Oh, go ahead.

Yeah, I was just going to say, though, like, the other part is, is that that blue line has not looked anywhere near what we've seen in the past. And if we can just go back to one major reason, Ryan McDonough. And maybe Ryan was maybe on hole number 14 or 15 in his career. Yeah. But he had a horse in front of him for many of those championships. Yeah. And, you know, Sergeyev hasn't looked, you know, quite to his value.

Nick Purbix is on the top pair, which, okay. You know, Calvin DeHaan is not great. So, yeah, they're a little soft on the back end. Ian Cole is pretty good for them. Sergeyev, there's sometimes you look up and you're like, okay, where is he? Where is he going? Well, we've often been like, oh, the Leafs would love a guy with that attitude and that skill or whatever.

If he played here, people would eat him alive. He would make you crazy. Analytically, his numbers aren't good. He's dashed 13 this year. Is he really? skill or whatever if he played here people would eat him alive he would make you crazy uh analytically he's uh his numbers aren't good he's no dash 13 this year is he really yeah uh i think they're typically pretty good it's just that he's one of those big error guys to me you know the like yeah what was that he can have a hiccup with the best of them yeah so uh yeah he's had more hiccups this year than good moments and but i will say sam and I shared a video of, what was it? Instead of handing out like a belt or something ridiculous,

they hand out a cold Miller Lite for their player of the game. They just clearly love each other, and it breaks my heart. They sent out a video, and it was like, was that Aceymont, the guy they got from the Sharks? Yeah, they like him too. Aceymont's pretty good. And he was giving like the player of the game speech. He's like, oh, maybe hopefully a day off tomorrow.

And he looks at Coop and Coop's a big smile on his face. Right behind him. Right, gets a big smile on his face. Not even a smile. It's like, what do you think? And he's like, practice tomorrow at 1030. And I was like, ah, they love each other. No, not this again.

Anyways, the other game I was looking at for tonight quickly in game time is another good one. Jets and Panthers. Jets, you game I was looking at for tonight quickly in game time is another good one. Jets and Panthers. Jets, you got pretty good value on them tonight. Plus 115 heading into Florida. So that's the other one I have. And that was game time presented by Bet365. Visit the app, the latest odds,

and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Player responsible. It's funny now that, especially in Canada, where the focus was on the Leafs and Edmonton to start, then boom, Vancouver gets off to this amazing start, and then they suck the majority of the oxygen, you know,

in the country, and well-earned. But then there's just like Winnipeg just slowly kind of minding their own business. Winnipeg's won seven of their last eight, I think. Don't talk about us and we'll just start accumulating all these points and just leave us alone. We'll do our thing here. Plus 10 gold differential. One four

in a row. Don't mind us. Plus money in Florida. Do you guys want some text? Oh, yeah. Let's talk to the people. Boys, I got a hard hitter right out of the gates here. Okay, I love this stuff. Sammy, it's Friday. This is a hard hitter. All our visas are maxed out right now on Black Friday.

I didn't even look at one sale. I didn't even, you know. I guess it's the American blood in me. When you have it all, boys, you don't need to. Oh, that's so sweet. Hey, boys. Jameis here. J jamis bought sportsnet plus just to watch you guys live every day no oh yes good that's the review we need yes uh what do you think uh sportsnet will give us like 15 of that sale commission sale 20 yeah yeah yeah let me

check my wallet here keep your hand out and wait i love the show this is a great way to get a tax right curious if you think marner is right for this leafs team regular season and playoffs have shown he has always been two different players would they be better off to use a salary when able to to bulk up on a different style of player such a tuesday text that is such a tuesday topic you really gotta dig in on and have stats and opinions and call people you know kip i'll go first i got no problem please do yeah he is my most reliable out of all of them okay i think that's most consistent you're gonna get my first thought is that this is the guy that can help me at both ends of the ice i'm okay with him killing penalties.

I know the risks and all of that, but I think he could still do that and score 100 points. The question is that if you do sign Willie and you feel like one has to go, then you automatically go to Mitch Marner. Right? Tavares is going to fall off the cliff in a year and a half or two years and maybe come back and take a third-line position for, I don't know,

two and a half, three million, whatever. God, that sounds good. $750K? Maybe. Whatever. Retirement. He's going to square 80 points. Go on the Joe Thornton program.

I'm fine with that. But where you're going to get the most value to significantly change your lineup is Mitch Marner. That guy's going to get you a boatload because there would be teams willing to change their look for a guy like that. Leon Dreisand. So the question is, I'm not sure where I feel about

if I had to pick Willie or Mitch. If it was my team, I'd probably move Nylander over Mitch Marner. But if they make the decision to keep Willie, then I know that Mitch Marner would bring you back a return, especially if Mitch waves his no move. And you can significantly change your team, especially on the back end. You know, I do feel like Mitch has the most potential

to come back and burn you. Yes. Where you'd ever move him. The haunt factor is high. Yeah, like he could just figure it out one playoff run and have, you know, whatever, two points per game. And, you know, when I think of that question, I think like Phil Kessel went and won Stanley Cups.

Like you don't have to be Tom Wilson to get a Stanley Cup. You know, is he the guy that's going to drive the team? We've seen the playoffs. He isn't. It doesn't mean he's not going to have a Stanley cup. You know, is he the guy that's going to drive the team? We've seen the playoffs. He isn't, it doesn't mean he's not going to have a year where it happens. He hasn't done that yet. You know, they,

I think it's kind of crazy to sit here and be like, no, you can't move him. You shouldn't consider doing other things. Certainly you consider all options. It's just, anytime you're trading one of the league's 10 best players or whatever you think marner is 15 best probably lose the trade so it would scare the scare me to death yeah to do

that the one thing is abundantly clear and they've tripled down on it though but the majority of us believe that they've gone way over the top in proving that they can't win with them, all of them, as is. We will happen. They're trying it again, and we'll see where it plays out, but can't go next year with all four of them again. If you watch a playoff round this year where the top guys get bogged down, they have a ton of attention, they get bogged down,

they can't score at the same rate, the Leafs lose, they're going to run Brendan Shanahan out of town. You know, is the perception that he's the one who wants this band to stay together, I think. Right? Tree Living's new. I guess he's the president.

I mean, the buck stops with him. Right. Tree Living's new. He's the president. I mean, the buck stops with him. Right. If it's not Shanahan, then it's Tree Living. I'm just saying fans will not be okay with watching the same guys run into the same wall. We rewind our

show at the beginning. Two years ago, we kind of had the same conversation. But I haven't been on that conversation but i haven't been on that page i haven't been on that page that these guys can't and won't win and and where are you now that if it happens again i'm gonna be yelling so what's what's the desired length of them playing into the spring for it to be okay you know that and that's a great question. And I think if they make it to the conference final and those guys play really well, then you go, okay, they can win you rounds.

They can play well in the playoffs. They can beat teams. So maybe it's that. But I don't know. What are we watching now, though? What are we watching now? Are they proving that they can't win already with those guys now?

Or are you going to need to see it in April when it may be too late to change anything for this season? You can't tell me that when they win and have success, show me in the playoffs, Justin. Show me in the playoffs. And then say that when they're not playing well in the regular season, now it matters. It either does now or it doesn't now. You can you can't have they look worse than they did last year at the same time yeah oh i mean their record is okay but in terms of hockey it's been much worse there's no question yeah it's that would scare me if i'm a leaf fan me too and i will say it does the the fancy little chart that i look at on sport, every day I open it up and there's an axis of where,

you know, top right is good. Last year, they were always in that top right. This year, they're kind of towards the middle. You know, like that's expected goals for and against that chart. And it's, they're not. Heading south. They're not amongst the elite teams really at much. They're fine.

They're good. They got elite players, but their whole team statistically not grading out quite as high as it used to. I got to think that answer was so worth getting Sportsnet Plus. Absolutely. Is it time to try Robertson on the first line? He's got lots of energy. Thanks.

We just want those guys to have the puck, and Matthews just needs someone else shooting it every time they touch it. I mean, if it's the, listen, if it's the showcase. Okay, hold on. He's never looked better than he does right now. Who asked that question? They didn't put a name on it. Okay.

Jason Robertson in Dallas. Where are we on, like, where is Robertson's ceiling here? Like, can he, do you ever envision to the viewers' question of him ever being a guy that could play on a number one line one day? Or are we past that? He's just such a good shooter, and he has such a good offensive nose for the net. I hate to write a 22-year-old who shoots it like he does.

When he came off when he came off a 50-goal season in Peterborough. 55. 55. Don't want to cheat him on the 5. Just like when people say, how many goals did you score in North Bay? Like 60,

right? And I'm like, no, no, 62. Don't cheat me the 2. I didn't know. I've been thinking 60. Don't cheat me the 2. 60 in know i've been thinking don't cheat me the two 60 in the old baby when he came off his 55 yeah he was taken to the top of the prospect list himself there and he was now the darling that was going to be the next great scorer for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Obviously, injuries played a part. Couldn't stay healthy. But is there anyone that still envisions that happening? Here are the names I worry about when I think of Nick Robertson and trading him.

Cole Caulfield and Alex DeBrinckit. Because they're smaller guys who don't control the play, but when they get near it, they shoot it in the hockey net. I don't have them anywhere near that class. I don't have them there either. So if you're not a 40-goal version of that and you're a 20-goal version of that and you don't do anything else...

Is the best-case scenario that you build this guy's stock high enough where someone wants to take a chance on him. But what better way to do that than to get back to the original texter's text, put him on the top line for a couple games. Have you been listening to Nick Kiprius all, that line doesn't pass the puck for a lick. He's not going to touch it.

Marlboro passes to him. Roll Mitch and get to shoot it. They got a shooter. They got a real good shooter on that line already. Yeah. You know what's funny too is like, Nyes is a They got a shooter. They got a real good shooter on that line already. Yeah. You know what's funny, too, is, like, Nyes is a bit of a shooter, right? Like, maybe that's not helping Matthews.

I think he naturally would consider himself a shooter. They do. They have a lot of shooters. You know, if you're looking to improve this offense and you watch this show, then I would think you would say, could we grab a facilitator at the deadline, which is going to be cheaper than a goal scorer?

Can we grab another couple dishers, which would make Domi more valuable, by the way, that we're talking about a lot of shooters. All right, Sammy, what else you got? You got one more? Just reading through here. Sammy says we got one million texts. We do.

Let me ask you guys, let's kind of go back to Ryan Reeves. We had a conversation earlier this week, and I told you if you're going to put him in any game, you'll put him in Chicago, right? It's kind of the feeling, and I think Sheldon felt the same way. Get him back in. Scored a goal. Got involved physically.

Try to change a little bit of energy, momentum. That's the kind of look that Leaf fans have been looking for for the first 20 games and have only had just a whisker of it. What does Sheldon do with him tomorrow night? I don't think he can score a goal and take

Seth Jones off the ice and then you take him out. He did exactly what he's paid to do in that game. Played nine minutes. I'll tell you who's playing tomorrow night. Don't think he's playing tomorrow night. Really? I would play him. I mean, I know, I know. I'm facing

a much better team at passing the puck. And you know what else? There's no dance partner for him. I just,. I just... McMahon, to me, to leave McMahon out of the lineup for Ryan Reeves against the Pittsburgh Penguins is just wrong.

The Penguins' fourth line is Jeff Carter, Matthew Nieto, and Noel Achari. I think it's a perfect... I think tomorrow night's a perfect example of just saying that Ryan Reeves, your insurance for us, we'll put you in when we need you, but it's not going to be consistent. You're not, whatever vision they had that this guy was going to play every game on the fourth line has just got to be wiped out right now. Pick and choose when you want him in, and he's just going to have to be a pro about it.

And I think it's fine. I think that could still work. Yeah, and also he's 36 years old. I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's a back-to-back. You know, like we play Geo because we don't have anyone else. But we don't, we like, you know, given the option, we do have options. We don't want to play it back-to-back.

You're coming off a very disappointing game in Chicago to come back and play Legends. Yeah. You've got to dress the best lineup possible. And the loss also puts you in a position to say, hey, we were keeping you out because win and you stay in. We were on a winning streak. This is a loss.

You know, we're allowed to change it up here. He probably feels a lot more part of the team right now than he did before. For sure. Right? Like scores a goal. Everybody was happy for him. He gets in a scrap or whatever that was.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, he's more, he contributed more in that game than he has all season. So it's probably an easier conversation to have with him now than it was when he hasn't played in three weeks. For sure. I agree with that. You got one more? Nah, we got nothing left. Alright, fair enough. We got eight hockey games

tonight on the schedule. Oh, some already done. I wanted to talk about Trouba quickly. Oh, thank... That's a great... Yes, I want to talk about that too. Trouba, if you haven't seen it yet, you're driving around. Trouba was Nick DeLaurier, who probably was the toughest guys in the league. One of them, yeah you haven't seen it yet, you're driving around. Trouba was Nick Delorier, who probably was the toughest guys in the league. One of them, yeah.

Was trying to, actively trying to fight Trouba. Not facing the play, just facing Trouba, trying to get him to fight. Like grabbing him, fighting him, and then you like see Trouba's eyes light up. And he goes in. And he hits another teammate anyways. Skates away from Delorier and plows. Yeah. The next biggest guy on Philly, Hathaway.

And it's like, he wasn't even going very fast. It wasn't like, it's just all brute strength. And he smoked them. I love Trouba. I love him. Yes. No, it's a clean hit. We always, in my era, we always labeled Scott Stevens like the best open ice checker.

And Trouba's easily the best. Among the best ever. Yeah. Agree. Well, and this hit is so impressive because he is unfazed by the bear trying to bite him. Yeah. And he goes and attacks a bobcat while it's happening. Like, that's, you used to say that about people.

You didn't, you're like, I fight people like you on the way to fights. Like, that was his dismissal of the Laurier. And they only gave up one again. A big portion this week of our show we had on our national hour was the Edmonton Oilers. Maybe a little love for them for a 5-0 win to close out this week for them. You don't want all the regression

to happen in one game. It's about time. Can we spread the regression out as we get better? Yes, it is about time. Drysaddle, three points. Hyman, three points. McDavid, I think four assists. Oh, really? Yeah. So it was a good week.

You know what's happening here? Not a good week, good day. Yeah, good day. You know what's happening too? Ovechkin, it's just not happening this year, guys, for them. There's going to be a lot more talk about Ovi in the next week. You watch. Oh, he saved the league, so. All right.

Our thanks to no guests today. No thanks. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. What a job. so. All right. Our thanks to no guests today. No thanks. What a job. What a job. What a job. Yeah. We did. Thanks for watching.

Thanks for listening all week. Give us a rating and review if you get a chance. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for being there always for us. Real Kipper and Bourne. We'll see you on Monday.