Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: McMann of the Hour

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Justin Bourne and Sam McKee welcome in guest host JD Bunkis with Nick Kypreos away. They start with the news that Bobby McMann has signed a 2-year, $1.25 million AAV deal, and they share their thoughts on the price, contract comparables and his future role. Then, they discuss the pressure on the core four and predictions for who will take the starting netminding job. Finally, the guys rank the Leafs' 'Team Bs' over the years and where the supporting cast this season stands amongst previous groups.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

welcome in to the real kipper and born show i am not nick kiprios but i'm sitting where nick usually does and it makes me feel very strange i am very grateful to be joined today by my good pal jd bunkus bunk welcome i'm gonna feel so naked during the show thank you for having me i just realized that the this headphone jack doesn't work for the thing. I don't think I've ever done a show like Raw Dog before. You just have to trust. I got no headphones. I have no choice.

Why not? I've never, I can't remember a show because it's like, you know what it sounds like in my ear? Like the Charlie Brown teacher. Not only do we have Bunk here for the first time in studio, we have him headphone-less. So looking forward to that. It's a nightmare. You know, I don't get a lot of opportunities to move over to

the big desk. And I was so excited. And this guy just comes in. I invite him in. He's like, I'm sitting at the big desk. Bunk's here for the first hour. Sammy's gonna join me over here for the second hour. You thought you were gonna sit at the big desk? I was gonna sit at the big desk. But I feel... 40 and I said what exactly right away where we're like, obviously go sit here.

So I will say I like it way more over here. I am completely dreading going there. I don't know why you sat there. Well, because. This is the Kip Spa, the host chair. The first man who speaks sits over there. So you're just admitting that Kipper is the big dog. Buddy, it's not the real born and Kipper show.

Yeah. They don't need to be like, it's the real born. Why aren't you real born? I don't know. Because no one wants to pretend to be me. Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. We're on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus.

Yeah, you can find us wherever you find your podcasts. And please text us today at 590-590. Second half of the show mckee and i are going to take some texts and talk about all things nhl wide leafs whatever it may be so big chair sammy hour big chair sam we're not allowed to talk about the leafs in the second hour else we'll get crtc complaints which by the way bunk that did happen this is the this is leafs hour what yeah that happened someone complained in the NHL hour that we talked too much Leaf. They complained this year. I got to say, can I just do this quickly?

Yes. The people who complain ever about free content, it's got to be the most insane. Like, I think that's the craziest thing you can do. Like, you can take your pants off. You can run through the square and, like, start yelling stuff. That, to me stuff that to me i'm like i you know i could see how i could get there i could never see myself being like to report a show for talking about the maple so here's what i was thinking that they should have done on the show yeah uh news of the day bobby mcmahon signed a two-year contract

with 1.35 million per season funny enough k Kip and I earlier in the week were talking about yesterday about a potential McMahon deal. And I said, would you do two times $1.25? And I believe Kip said yes. No, we got in a yelling match yesterday over this exact topic where he was like, you know, with a good playoff run and all this, he's going to be making two and a half. He could make that much.

And he yelled at me about it. He was trying to drive up another Leaf price. Yes. And I mean, that was it. I was like, we do that in Toronto where everybody gets so excited and horned up. And it's like, this guy's playing well. Better give him three million bucks a year. We forget he was in the ECHL literally last or two years ago.

And they signed him to this contract. And I can, if I was Kipper, I know exactly what the take would be. It'd be like, well, you know, that's a bad contract for Bobby McMahon.

You know, the Leafs got a steal and they shouldn't assign that when he did, but he did it. So this is why Kipper sits in the big dog chairs. Cause even when he's gone, you guys are like, let's pretend to do Kippers. People come here for the show. I got like 15 tweets about you were right robin in his face

the first time i was ever right you don't even get to do it today you know what it kind of reminds me of justin hall yeah remember when justin hall got his contract and people were like whoa already and it was like a two mil a year deal so it was more than what bobby mcmahon got but everyone looked at that contract the second and it happened and said this guy was just in the ahl he was a bust of a pick uh what are you doing giving them this kind of extension this kind of term and it did kind of end up backfiring because they could have had jared jared you know mccann instead of hall had they not done that contract? But ultimately, it ended up being a good deal for all parties involved.

This is a little less money, but I think you just look at sort of using the same template as Justin Hall. Hey, if you're getting a right shot D, who you think can move the puck a little bit and kill a penalty for you, that has a state like that has a pretty stock value it's hard to go below that and the way i look at bobby man is hey you got a depth forward who's basically gonna be making close to the minimum who's got size and who can forecheck that's worth at least a million bucks good deal like i don't know how you could say not good deal you have to be terrible

yeah no i know and you look at know, there's 32 teams now, and you look at the bottom of most rosters, a guy like McMahon has legit value. The comparable for me was a guy that you and I guyed up once upon a time, Pierre Engvall. When we were like, is this guy a guy? Is he a guy? Early on, they gave him a two-year extension.

He made 1.25, 20, 21, and 22. So this is the going right. It kind of is. It's like you have shown you are out of the ahl yeah we like you enough for two years and this to me is what should happen with simone benoit right now where you say i know it looks like you're the guy out of the lineup and you might be game one or two we see you as being joel edmondson watch him be that guy for us we're giving you the contract to show you that we have the faith that you can do this. Sorry.

It doesn't feel great right now. Maybe you get in, but at least you lock them up and you know, don't risk losing them. So my only thing with that is if you're tree living, do you want to jump at that one? Maybe you can just sign Joel Edmondson to that. I guess it depends where like they just have a lot of those dudes.

He's an RFA too. Simone Benoit. So they have, yeah. So they have the control over him going into the off season. So I would imagine that man wasn't no, he's an RFA too, Simone Benoit. So they have the control over him going into the offseason. So I would imagine

that that's something. McMahon wasn't? No, he was a UFA. Okay, so then can I ask you guys a question? 828. If you're him, because we agree,

it's impossible. If you love this deal, if you're like, oh my God, I love this deal, it's kind of crazy because it's Bobby McMahon and he was just a-

It's a hard one to have a really strong opinion. Guys, I love this deal. I love Bobby McMahon. I'm like team McMahon all the way. I really like him too and I believe that he was just a hard one to have a really strong guys i love this deal okay i love bobby mcmahon i'm like team mcmahon all the way i really like him too and i believe that this is a favorable contract for the leafs i'm just saying that for you to be like this is a foundational moment for the franchise a seminal moment like no it's a step forward that they signed to a depth contract and they've done it before and like we said if you think you're a guy if you're in the pierring

ball class of can play in the NHL better than the AHL, you get the $1 million plus a little bit of bonus on top. There you go. If you're him though. Well, this was going to be our boy's take. It was going to be that he shouldn't have signed it. So what, but what do you got? Like, do you think that like, should he have bet on himself?

Should he have Fred VanVleet? I think when you've never made more than 80 grand a year, the first time someone offers you a 2.7 he played 10 games in the nhl until this season of course you take this contract like he could but i think you know there's argument on the other side where you've already got 10 goals in 40 games and it's like i'm not risking it man like i i think this guy how old is he is he 27 28 year old he spent way more time in the echl than he has in the nhl i i mean you're getting giving me 2.7 million dollars for you know scoring 10 goals in 40 games i am snapping that baby up listen i'll

be kipper give me that chair i feel more comfortable if you were you think he should have you know gone into the playoffs with the long seven game run that the least are going to have and his one goal that he scores where it's like his value is going to be so much more than it is right now here's here's what i would say it's it's probably smart because what would he really what could he really have changed the contract by well there is what if he becomes a third liner for this team who scores five more goals this year and a few in the playoffs is he worth two season two but that's what i'm saying is to me um i'm not doing it if i'm him for this reason you know when you get the cash out on a betting app i do and you're like i should take this this is more money than i've had before and they're giving me the money and it's scary to wait for the rest of it but the real reason

they're offering you the cash out is is that they think there's a good chance you're gonna win yeah and so oh this was a hundred percent it's a great a great analogy they gave mcmahon the cash out yeah take the cash out before we have to pay you the full value they told him cash out cash out cash out and then he was like ah you hit the button yes and now and you know what the big fear of the cash out is is that if you win you're like oh my god i left x on the table oh oh oh and so for a Is that if you win, you're like, oh my God. I left X on the table. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And so for a guy who, as you've said, has not made a lot of money

and may not have an opportunity because he's older to not make a ton of money later, if he does have an incredible playoff run, like, do we all like the Tavares-Yarncroft-McMahon line? Yeah. Yeah. Did we all not like him playing with Matthew Nyes in that little Bash Brothers-y field

that the two of them had? Loved it. So have there not been at least a couple of outcomes where you could see this guy having a down the lineup impact? Could we not see? Listen to Bunk talking himself into a take where McMahon's a $3 million guy. I'm saying

the general manager also is horny for big fellas. He's like borderline I'd say so. He's like, how tall is that guy? He's going to come in the studio like, how tall are you, Sam? Exactly. His favorite member of the Real Caper and Board show is no question Sam.

Okay. He is. He likes the lighthouses. So if you're the big lighthouse guy and you start in the playoff series and you lay a couple big hits and you have a couple of nasty playoff goals. I think, yeah, reasonable to expect that you could have gotten maybe two. Once upon a time, I did. Every team in the NHL played a game on the same night this year and I bet all 16 games in a parlay.

That was like a fun night. I remember this. And I had hit. Oh, yeah. I had like 14 of 14 at one point. And I forget how small the bet was five bucks but i was offered 500 to cash out potential winnings were 32 grand yeah and i remember texting with bunk like what do i do here oh yeah he was i regret to this day not cashing it out yeah you

not cashing it out in overtime you're not cashing it out is getting slashed in the knee next game and going down and never playing another nhl game you got a cash yeah no degenerate no it's this isn't degenerate you never look at gambling at what the cash out is let me give some advice where's my camera okay boom here don't do it you're you want to just be living a normal life like you could just get this the bet that you made that is the sunk cost it's never what it's offering you the bet is the bet you bet five, that is the sunk cost. It's never what it's offering you. The bet is the bet. You bet five bucks, you're going to lose five bucks.

You never had $500. You bet it to win 32 grand. If you would have won that 32 grand, you're going, oh my God, this is an actual life-changing amount of money for me. I agreed with you then, but I agreed with you now. I didn't do it. If you cash it out for $500 and you win, welcome to never sleeping again. But I'm not sure the $5 to win $32,000 is the right level of gamble here.

You're 14 out of 14. No, but I don't know. This is a one-off long shot stupid bet that the two of us were. I think, yeah, I do think that this was the right move for him. I really do. I just think there's a lot of risk man and it's a hard game it's a fast league one fall all right you have one chance to get paid they throw 2.7 in front of you he's a young healthy 27 minutes into the mcmahon conversation we got other stuff to get to people want mcmahon talk ultimately though i think you can look at this as an awesome story for him.

Like, for him to... He was scratched. The game that Tavares and Marner both were sick. He got scratched. Yeah. Comes in, gets a hat against the Blues, was it? And then, like, just found confidence and has been a really good contributor to the team ever since and then found a way to...

And, like, he's a healthy scratch. He cleared waivers. Yeah. He just got offered $2..7 million dollars yeah snap that baby up it is a good one for for the leafs here so he looks like he when you look at their lineup their forward lines you're like i'm okay with wherever they have him by and large uh but they did shuffle things up again um you know we've got bertuzzi matthews yarn crock right now mitch marner still out with an injury of some variety, which is something we do want to start with Marner.

Do you want to hear the coach talk about it? It's a pretty short clip. Yeah, let's see what he's going to say. I think it's clip three, Derek. No? No update on Mitch. He didn't skate today, so read into that what you will. Can we have that one more time?

No, no update on Mitch. He didn't skate today, so read into that what you will. Can we have that one more time? No, no update on Mitch. He didn't skate today, so, you know, read into that what you will. No update on Mitch. Read into that. Or he didn't skate today. Read into that what you will. I don't like that. No, nor should you.

Well, why would anyone say read into that what you will? I think the implication is he's not close. That's a real concern here. Yeah, if you're telling the hounds that Leafs practice to read into something. Yeah, why would you do that? I actually think that, like, this is not a huge deal, but I actually kind of think that that's dumb by Sheldon.

Like, just say, we'll get an update soon. It feels like a little bit of, don't ask me about it for a bit. Like, it's going to be an ongoing thing, which, you know, Mitch Marnerarner hurt he's had a high ankle sprain years ago but you know we talked to kip seems to know people about things and he had some concern mentioned ankle is one of the potential things that is something that can nag and never get back to 100 or even knee you know it's unlikely gets back to 100 so i i don't know some concern there? Yeah.

Yeah. Here's how I would have not been concerned if he was like, he's back in the lineup Thursday, he's feeling great. Yeah, right. Like, nice. Yeah, that's awesome. It was a weird fall that he took after, because he fanned on the one against the Bruins,

where everyone was like, ah, if he had shot that, they would have won. And then he comes around, falls on his knee kind of awkwardly, kind of twisted around. I don't know what the hell happened to him, but I mean, pretty clear here that he's probably not going to get to 100 points again, which is a tough break for him. He's been sniffing at 98, 99. You know, right now he needs 24 points

to get there. He's got 18 games left. So it's within his points per game pace that he gets there. If he gets back. You know, the only, if I'm trying to do optimism spin zone, read into it what you want because read into you that's you pick your own adventure right read into it what you want is potentially hey uh we lost those two games to bruins and now we're not catching them we ain't

catching anybody we're stuck in our lot in life and so we're gonna play things uber conservatively and let the guy heal because we don't really need him to come back love that or that sheldon's pissed off that they're being so cautious with him and he wants him in the lineup because he's desperate to win every game yeah at least there are nine points behind the bruins right now and they are uh eight points clear attempt like we are at the point where they're finishing third in the atlantic they do have games in hand on boston three games ever done that before? What's that? Finished third?

They're locked into a playoff spot before the season starts. Every November, usually. Has that ever happened before? But it is funny that this year, at least, they don't know who they'll be playing, though it looks very likely to be Boston. It sure does.

Because Florida came back on Dallas down 3-1 last night. 3-zip. 3-zip. They're down 3-zip. 3-zip. They're down 3-zip. And one in regulation. Yeah, one in regulation. On a power play goal.

Their power play looks dynamic. Jake Andrews. Better hope the Leafs can figure out their power play. Or their penalty kill because it's not looking so hot. Before the show, we talked a little bit about Marner, the shape of their team, how it's going to look going forward. I don't know. i thought you had an interesting angle on the mitch thing well just i i think what you're looking at here without him

in the lineup is going to be a reminder of how this sounds stupid just bear with me okay how important he is like yes the 11 million dollar winger is important um but that if you're trying to project leafs rosters of the future like okay well when when is it going to change right would they ever break up the quote-unquote core four i think that the idea that the leafs are ever going to have an off-ramp through trade with one of the three younger guys marner matthews and nylander that that's done like i just don't see a scenario where the leafs get bounced by the Bruins in the first round this year and they go into an off season and say, well,

we're going to try to entertain a Mitch Marner trade. Yeah. Even though he's only got one year left on his deal and the team that's going to be acquiring him is going to have to pay him a buttload of money and that all of a sudden the Leafs are going to be saying, what can we do? How are we going to improve this? Can you turn this guy into a defenseman? That used to feel like a reality.

That was an off ramp that we had for changing the Leafs core look. And to me, it's like this is actually a contract totally puts a chip. You're not going to get value back for any, any move. I just, I just don't think that this is ever now reality. Like to me,

the Leafs and even part of the reason that they weren't desperate at the trade deadline is because they know they're locked into this team until John Tavares is off the books. And then we'll see moving forward what they do with the Tavares contract, like how much of a haircut they get him to eat, whether he's with the team at all if he refuses to do that. But, like, any idea that we ever had of looking at a Leafs team

that was not going to involve these three on major tickets. I think that that went out the window when they decided to fire Kyle Dubas. That they went into an offseason with a brand new general manager and with William Nylander needing a new contract. And then re-upping that in the season. Like to me, there's no stakes for these three guys this year. There's no like, hey, Mitch, you have a poor playoffs and maybe you're the guy to go for a defenseman. It's like, nah, I don't think that

that's a reality. If you're, and if you're entertaining trading Mitch, if you're trading him after they lose in the first round with a,

which means, which means he probably was very similar to some of the other years that he's had in playoffs. He needs a new massive contract. Like you couldn't be

trading that asset at a lower value. So true. Like there's just no spot where you'd. Like, you couldn't be trading that asset at a lower value. So true. Like, there's just no spot where you'd be like, you know, a team would still... The point of all this is they're stuck with these guys. You're not getting a third and a fifth round pick for Mitch Marner here.

I'm not saying that, but it's not going to be close to what you think you're going to get back for a guy of his. You'd done it last year after they lost. Even then, I guess you have the extra year. You still get way more value last year, clearly. But this offseason, you could never have an extra year. You still get way more value last year, clearly, but this off season, you could never have an asset with less value than him going into that.

Like you agree. Like, cause it feels like one of those, if you're just realizing now it's too late and that's how I feel with this. I'm like, Oh my God, there's no change. Suddenly this,

you're going to watch this core of Matthews, Marner, Nylander this year. And even if they don't win next year as well, see it again next year. Yes. There's no potential. Well, if they don't get out of the first round, there's going to be consequences.

Like, that's done. No move for Austin. No move for Willie. You know, Mitch is not moving. Yeah. I think we all know what the move is if they don't get out of the first round. What is it? It's the coach, clearly.

Yeah, well, that's your only move, really. I'm throwing this at you guys, like, on the spot. We never discussed this, but. Yeah, well, that's your only move, really. I'm throwing this at you guys on the spot. We never discussed this. That's okay. The other weird one would be, could the move be Riley? Just can't. You just don't have any D. I know.

You look at the D and you're like. It's a D for D. Yeah, imagine if you're like, yeah, they're going to give us Slavin and we're going to try it with a D-oriented D-man or whatever. Yeah. You know, you might consider it, but it just seems like the one-for-one trades we see in the NHL are so rare and it's usually like, this guy we thought was spectacular has really been disappointing.

You know, Middlestadt and Byram just did a thing. There's two separate conversations to me with that because on the surface hockey-wise, I'm like yeah i'd i'd consider it but the other side of it's like he's the number one heart and soul guy that cares the most and is like most well spoken and seems like he should be the captain and there's two separate conversations to that there's a two separate different guys with the with him in the playoffs versus him in the regular season it's a very complicated one i think it's one that i would consider for sure but like i i don't think what's his i mean if they all have no move clause he definitely has one so you're not sure if he has

one or not but i'm sure he does yeah he did well he actually took a bit of a haircut david camp got one so i would imagine that he has one bird has one domi has one yeah and in that case too you look at it and it's just hey uh if he has that measure of control you can't get back equal value i just like just to play devil's advocate, like, I agree with you guys. It's complicated. It's unlikely. It's whatever.

This is a stupid hypothetical. But if you do have this much of a track record in your regular seasons of, hey, you know, we win a lot of games without this guy. Yeah. It's, again, it's just the least viable thing because you don't have any D. So, like, unless, and there's just so rare

for a one-for-one trade. Everyone's been looking at this. If it doesn't work, it's because they haven't had enough D and they have too many forwards. You're right. They're kind of stuck with this look. So one of the things we're going to do in the back half of the show is look at who the core has had over the years

and compare the best team Bs that they've ever had and ask if it's this year and why it isn't. Presumably. Did you want to talk about goalies saw you had woodley on your podcast today and i saw the quote that he had about wall and it was pretty strong pretty strong from a guy who uh knows everything about goalies so like i you know my thoughts on it in terms of who they want we've talked about this who they want oh it's not even a an opinion on who they want they want the kid kid. Like, they want Wohl. Yeah.

Like, that's a matter of, like, essentially public record. Yeah. You can, it's like, you want to try and dig into who they want. It's like, you can scratch the little level of service and, like, you'll get it. Like, they want it to be Wohl. I think the more interesting point of conversation with the goaltenders right now is, like, how do you handle it moving forward

if it takes Wohl a little bit of time to kind of find his game like i don't think he's been poor by any stretch of the imagination the three games he's been back he actually had one really good start and then he had one that wasn't good enough against the bruins and then one where he let in two bad goals yeah okay samsonov is playing his very best you're looking at a situation i think right now where you haven't played in a week right essentially a week um you got a game thursday night you're probably going to lean with the samsonov like it doesn't like they've gone to wool before they can say that they're playing the calendar but you're probably going to lean to samsonov and then it's like are you just going to do the split but what happens if samsonov continues to be like

the better of the two who's actually winning the games, but you still do believe that Wohl is the guy and you're trying to give him as much of the net? Like, can you just flat out just continue to do the 50-50 split? Because I think you kind of can. I think that's maybe the route here. Yeah, I think you save yourself a lot of explaining to the guys and playing favoritism and hurt feelings and you say,

until there's reason not to, we're just going to take turns, fellas. Like, you know, Wohl's up next. It's been a week you'll go again saturday night sammy like i think that's kind of how that ends up looking you know you're right wool had one good showing the boston ones were tough but i like the idea of throwing them back into the fire and being you know it's boston it's a hard game didn't get the wins didn't play great in a back-to-back but you got to get them going you need him at his best a month from now. That's it. If you are believing at all that he needs run, you can't just play Samsonov and say,

we're riding the hot hand and he's getting more net. To me, it's like you have two scenarios. One is Samsonov remains the hotter of the two, and they split the net equally. The other is that Wool becomes the hotter of the two, and split the net equally the other is that wool becomes the hotter of the two and wool actually just takes over the net and he's becoming like the far more primary actually getting starts i don't think there's a reality in which wool regardless of how poorly he may play if he if he was to play poorly yeah that they would go samson i was

getting three and you're getting one like you're you're getting 25% of the starts. You know, it's fascinating to think if he's not playing well by the postseason or even is just okay, could the Leafs be the rare team who legitimately uses both goalies in a playoff series? I hate that. I hate it too. That's one of my least favorite things. The only time I like the multiple goalie move is when you have, like, the established starter

that has a bad couple games and you put in the backup to kind of change the mojo. Like, they it it's it's happened in years past like with a holpy when he was bad again grubauer uh murray and flurry who was the goalie in uh the backup in chicago for crawford scott darling scott darling came in a couple games for him when he was bad like i don't i feel like when there's a starter and a backup delineate it's much easier to just be like shake up the team how long is when you're in last year they didn't even go to swayman but that's the thing i mean till seven till seven i just think that's a way more complicated thing in the playoffs if you have one if you have two you don't have one in the playoffs to me like it's a much

more easy shake-up move as opposed to trying to pick who the goalie is in the playoffs. It's terrifying to me. To me, it's the exact same thing when it comes to the outcomes. I think that you could see a scenario where Samsonov gets game one, and if he performs badly, then Wolves immediately in the net. If Wolves wins the net and he loses game one and he plays badly, go back to Wolves. Go back to Wolves.

I think that it's going to be two standards that you might say unfair and you might say meritocracy or whatever but i just everything you listen to and hear the leafs just down their goaltending coaches their front like everyone believes in wool one guy's under contract makes sure one guy's not but i don't even think that, the way he plays is part of this, right? Like, he doesn't look trustworthy. You know, he's bad when he's too busy, and he's too busy when games are big. If you look at the arbitration that he went to with the Leafs,

the case they made against him is that when the chips are down, when the stakes are high, his style does not work. Yeah, they've said that publicly publicly and they've actually tried to, you know, when they first brought him in, they tried to tweak both he and Murray's styles actually. Yeah. And yeah, I think that their feeling was one guy was a little less receptive to the changes or was actually implementing.

Which could be some resentment or reason they want Wohl to win as maybe they hold some of the, hey, this guy wasn't coachable as we wanted him to be. Yeah, maybe. Can I ask you guys one more Mitch question? Please. Mitch-related question before we take this break? The longer that Matthews goes,

like when you guys said the lines there, you only told me one. You want it? Well, no, it doesn't matter. It's more so like... Well, maybe people haven't seen it. Well, yeah, we actually, Warren and I have always had a,

we love talking about the lines and what we like about the lines. Of course. Okay, so you got Yarn Croc, who is essentially the all-reliable for this team, right? Yeah, he's Kerfoot. Yeah, he's the... What's it called?

The tape. The Flex Seal. The Flex Seal. Flex Seal. He's the Flex Seal where they're like, slap it on, it'll work. It'll help a line go. Okay, you don't have headphones in.

We didn't hear the drop. Okay. Oh, did it happen? No, no, just now. Oh, okay, yeah. After we mentioned it. Hey, Rendeo. Let's just do a visual meme.

So, let's say the worst part of the Marner thing is realized. There was like real Matthews MVP talk. And like like quite frankly I thought that those Bruins games borderline played him out of that conversation just because they were such big games and he was so absent from them and whatever flu but let's say

he doesn't like this trend continues now because we got we all agreed that there was the hey maybe he had the flu maybe he wasn't going very well. Like, it was tough games against the Bruins. Tough week. If that extends now into the next couple of games,

like, what is that going to do to you guys mentally? In terms of how you feel about Matthews? Yeah, just like approaching the playoffs, Matthews, that impending. Because if you were Mitch Marner, right, it's not that he's never had success away from Mitch, right? Like, he's a dominant player. He's scored most goals five on five since entering the league like all those things two things can be true

he's still obviously the best goal scorer on the planet but if he's not able to kind of impose his will with these guys and these different looks and you know we're going to talk about different like hey moving the little pieces around and team A and team B and we're discussing even the idea of ever moving off

of Mitch Marner like what does that say if if anything, to you, if he does continue to kind of have middling numbers or doesn't feel as dominant while Mitch is out? To me, it's playing into this fantasy that doesn't exist. Like, Auston Matthews' goals per game are the same with Mitch and without Mitch. And Mitch Marner in the playoffs has not made

Auston Matthews into some, like, elite game-breaker. In fact, they've both been pretty bad. You know, by and large. I thought last year they worked and were a part of it and came through. They did win a round, which we talked about before. People seem to forget. And they were very good in that first round.

Yeah. They were the main reason they won. I mean, how many points? Oh, that line. Yeah. What do we do now? I was like, they got outplayed in that series. Oh, well, I mean, they outplayed the...

Anyways. Yeah, yeah. We don't need a bit of that. We lost on the weeds here. But no, so I think that anyone who is a goal scorer who plays with Mitch Marner is going to benefit. He is an awesome player, and I think he'd be great for Willie, just like he was great for John when John scored 47.

Whoever plays with this guy is going to benefit. So, yeah, like he's great for John when John scored 47. Whoever plays this guy is going to benefit. So yeah, like he's a crucial whatever. You can't change my opinion on Matthews. I have a very strong, the opinion is there, that he is a breathtaking goal scorer, an amazing player, one of the best players I've ever watched play for the Toronto Maple Leafs with or without Mitch Marner, and that in the big games, it holds me back from truly loving

him because he's had like the he hasn't had the moments yet i guess he was really good in that first round against tampa which will always be measured against what happened in those next five games where he got shut out and was a ghost and was not around it's amazing right like it's just florida colored the tampa series those guys really did move the needle and made some big plays and big moments. For sure. But yeah, that Florida series, everyone's just like, oh, that invalidated. It also doesn't help that the ones you go to before,

you're like, well, surely there's this incredible other series. It's like, no, you just have the Tampa series. There's one. When you add, it's like Columbus. Why wasn't there more there? They scored an overtime winner in the bubble. Yeah. Why wasn't there more against the Montreal Canadiensians remember what the narrative was after the canadians he got put in his pocket by philip dino yeah but it was also them going to the media

saying well we got chances we got lots of good looks it's in fall it's in fall it's like okay well yeah it that starts to wear thin more so so it's like when you say hey it goes or it evaporates or gets colored by the florida series i'm like i think it's more colored by like the entire body of work than anything else like he's played in a lot of game sevens and he still doesn't have a goal in one of them you got to get one of those yeah that would be really helpful yeah that'd be good absolutely that would sure help the clutch narrative he is the the guy right this whole thing is you know we're going to talk uh after the break about supporting cast and stuff which has never been the point no right it's never been like andre

kasha is going to get them through it's like these guys are going to get them through or it doesn't work now i forget where i recently heard this but like research on uh when players finally went around and i apologize to whoever wrote this article, when they win a round after they first break in the NHL, you know, for first round picks. It's typically six to seven years. It's a long time before most of these guys break through, win a round, find it, you know, go from Steve Iserman to Steve Iserman.

Or Stephen Stamkos to Stephen Stamkos. Or Ovechkin, who was really late. So the time for these guys to be the guys is not over. But it's now. It's absolutely now. It's been now probably for a couple years, but it's now. Dude, this drove me nuts after the trade deadline. I was losing it.

I tweeted something about it. I basically did an entire two shows on it. I don't want to make this seem like a straw man because I think that's annoying when people kind of over-exaggerate something to this effect. But this entire core four was supposed to be built on the idea that those guys would be so dominant that you felt the advantage night in, night out.

They should be better than the other team's top line. Everybody else was like, when they were moving these deck chairs around, that it wasn't supposed to matter as much. And yet, like, here we are going into this discussion, and I know this one's for fun, but, hey, which one of the pieces around them were supposed to be better?

And you go, were you supposed to find diamonds in the rough? Yes. Were you going to have misses? Of course. There's no ever going to be a general manager that was going to nail every single one of these things and ever nail every single contract in the cap era. You were obviously going to have misses of course there's no ever going to be a general manager that was going to nail every single one of these things and ever nail every single contract in the cap era you were obviously going to have misses you were obviously going to have stylistic fits you had no margin for error but you were supposed to have a constant and the constant was

that the four of these guys are just a force that the other side goes oh my god we hate this they're coming in waves. But this is what I'm just talking about, where it doesn't happen for any 22-year-old core of a team. Probably right. It hasn't happened. There's nothing you know. Well, you know what's historical is they got paid earlier as the 22-year-old core. They got paid like they had won the cup early.

You sacrificed that. You sacrificed that forgiveness from the fan base that left the door the second you all went, no, no, no, we want the most money and we're going to change the way contracts are done. Especially when they did it and then

others do. But you, as an analyst, should be able to tease those things out separately. Kind of. That they are for sure, but that they are, as players on the ice, devoid of contracts and money, it takes some time, and there's a learning curve, and they can still become the guys I mentioned,

the Eisenman, the Stamkos, whatever. I agree. But the way they're perceived is definitely through the lens of, oh, you want the money, you're the guys. And you mentioned the supporting cast. I'm going through these for the exercise we're going to do after we break here and boy there's a lot of zeros hold on but okay i agree playoff series as you know you've watched playoff series your whole life comes down to one of the guys in the bottom half of the lineup max talbot shoots two in game seven

kicking one in for you off his butt in the game set and it's just like they never got one of those moments got ever definitely yeah that's why they won the series. It's like you need these moments where one guy has a big moment and they just never got it. And I'm not absolving the core of what it's just like. But you're right that cores are often saved by someone else who gets in a big moment. Sure. And this is all I'm saying is.

Ray Allen's three for LeBron. It would be fine if you felt like it was really the cores that were letting them down and all the other guys were carrying the weight and you looked at the zeros and said, boy, if you could have just gotten one or two more, but it's not. Usually the guys that are making you feel a little empty about it are the main guys. That's why, again, I like the idea that they didn't load up

at the deadline this year because what I'd like to see is what you just said in terms of teasing out when these guys are going to get there. I'm there with you. I'm going, these guys do look like they're more in their primes. That's why I think the Bruins games were so unsettling is because people were seeing the winning streak and going,

okay, we're cautiously tepidly going to step forward and sort of believe that maybe you guys are maturing and that you are willing to win these hard matchups. And they beat the Avalanche. And you go, damn, they look good in that game. And then they played the bad Bruins, who have had their number,

and it looked the exact same. The exact same. It didn't look the same, though. Okay, okay. Go ahead. The only thing is, I want to see them have that series against the Boston Bruins,

where they dominate. I want to see them have a series against the Florida Panthers, where they look I want to see them have a series against the Florida Panthers where they look like they're the force of the series. Like where they went into Edmonton, beat them three straight times in the Canadian division, and we went, oh, my God, looking for the lead. The world truly was ending.

Justin Holl shut down McDavid for three straight games. The world truly was ending. In the playoffs, impose your will, and if you guys lose the whole, like, oh, my God, you didn't have enough, then good. Then you should actually be able to figure out, all right, what are the other pieces that they need around these guys? Let's sell other assets.

Trade Easton Cowan. Trade whatever you need to get because now these guys are good enough. Right, but you're not sure enough about the core to do that. I'm not sure enough that they've entered that phase of, oh, my God, okay, well, they've hit the 27-year-old, and they're definitely going to do it now. Like, I'm less sure about that part of it, though we know the money part yeah all right we're going to talk more about this after the break uh you're listening to real kipper and born hey it's ben ennis and i'm brent cunning we got you covered on all things leafs rafters and blue

jays every weekday morning six to nine it's the fan morning show sportsnet 590 the fan and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Real Kipper and Boren Show. We are joined still by J.D. Bunkus, which is great because he's going to help us parse through the Team Bs that the Leafs have had over the years. So it's become a running theme on this show, whether it's true or not, it's true.

There's the Team A, which is the core guys who are here, and they've been a part of this whole thing. And every year, they try and tape on different pieces and try to make a Stanley Cup champion. Not sure if you guys know this. Hasn't happened yet. Were you ever on, like, a Team B? I don't think I've ever been on Team A.

No. You ever had, like, anything, any type of, because like I grew up at Waitrose-Yukon and we used to have like Team A and Team B for hockey tournaments. Yeah. Because they would want to send as many kids down to get as much as possible.

A legitimate like whole group of cast off. Yeah, because they would, yeah, they would be like, well, we want to... There's not enough hockey tournaments up in the North, right? So when they send the kids down, they're like, we can't just only send 30 kids. All the kids got to go. We got to send more kids. It's not all, but it's a lot. I made it. But I had one year

where I was on Team B, and there was truly nothing more intense that you wanted than to beat Team A in practices or to do better in a tournament. One of my favorite chirps was that Team Canada B could beat anybody a in practices or to like do better in a tournament one of my favorite chirps was that team canada b could beat anybody at a hockey tournament too but that that take has kind of gone out the window now i don't know i still think they'd be very competitive they'd be so fun though like wouldn't canada canada b wouldn't canada b be the team that

we all rallied around for sure canada a would be like those pretty boys i'm just the worst thing you could do for your reputation. Who's their starting right winger for Team A? Probably the one here. One guy defends from Team A. He's like, I don't want to be in those three Madonna's. You want to be a part of it. So looking at all the Team Bs,

we're going back to the start of when John Tavares joined the team. Not going to read off all the names, but do you have a year where you go in retrospect that was the best team b and how how does this year's group stack up to previous team b's the least of that to me it's a very obvious answer and it is last year it's the best one based solely on success meaning they won the first round since i was in high school. Yeah. And they had, you know, Ryan O'Reilly, Sam Lafferty, Nola Chari, Kerfoot, Bunting. Those are players.

Zach Aston Reese, Hall, and Shen, as well as, you know, the other guys that are still on the team, Yarncroft, Knies, Kampf. Those guys are still on the team or whatever. But to me, that deadline, and I'd hate to give Kyle Dubas credit for anything, but that deadline was the type of deadline that should have won this core more rounds than two.

Than one, sorry. But it's funny looking at that because so much of that was deadline. O'Reilly, Lafferty, Achari, Shen, that all came at the deadline. A lot of these other team Bs were a part of the team for longer. Is there a year for you?

So I think this is a... I'm not trying to ruin the game oh here we go but let me move these goalposts yeah just a touch here we go where it's like are we getting the fully healthy team like the fully right team like what i think you're gonna pick the same team as me with that question well yeah just because if that's the team if that's the fully healthy team and the the you know you know it's the montreal yeah it's the montreal team yeah no doubt about it like if you would have gotten the like fully healthy felino and the fully healthy felino changes things for sure dude so we're moving

goalposts oh yeah they got moved okay well but that's the thing okay but if we're playing this hockey doesn't so hockey's allowed to happen where guys get hurt no but here's the unfair part is if we're talking about this year's core right now, the guys around them are all healthy. Yeah. So it's like going into it, you would have felt the same way heading into the postseason. Like we're doing it all in the time capsule. By the way, they had Jake Muzzin on the back end.

You had Spezza on the third line, Pierre Engvall. Bogosian was a part of it. You know, you had a lot of guys that you felt could contribute. Yeah. I just, I don't know. The only thing is, too, is like on paper, you look a lot of guys that you felt could contribute. Yeah. I just, I don't know. Like, that kind of is, the only thing is, too, is, like, on paper, you look earlier and you say, wow, they had Zach Hyman and they had Patrick Marleau and they had,

so I think you can spin it in terms of a talent argument. I also think if you're talking about the best core, is there a, oh, wait, we're only doing post-Tavaris. Well, go ahead. Where are you going to? Well, I was going to say kind of like the very first rookie year where they decided to keep all the owned rentals, which turns out to be kind of like a bit of a mistake probably.

They still had Kadri, JVR, Bozak. Yeah, when you had that team, that team felt a little balanced. They went out and got Brian Boyle and just kind of... Again, though, they're the babies. They're not who they are now. Right. So it's a tough one for me to do. I get it.

Last year. What year was that? What, the very first year that they went? 16, 17. 16, 17? Yeah. So 16, 17. Yeah, that's, I'm just pulling it up here.

Yeah. Like that is the, but that's when it was fun. That was the most fun. That's when it was fun. But also. If you're asking me which one was the most fun, that is the answer for me. Absolutely. Not beating Tampa last year? Well, yeah. No. That was great most fun. That's when it was fun. If you're asking me which one was the most fun, that is the answer for me. Absolutely. Not beating Tampa last year?

Well, yeah, that was great. No? Three overtime winners? No. The thing is, we weren't beat down in 2016. Yeah. We weren't, like, that was, like, when it was still the hope. Just happy to be there.

That's what I'm saying, is those were carefree. I remember where we were for some of those games, like hugging and having the time of our lives, and it was genuinely of our lives. And it was genuinely the feeling was... Connor Carrick played six playoff games that year for the Leafs in that playoffs. There you go. Martin.

At the moment. Yeah, that decor was Connor Carrick, Martin Marincin, Nikita Zaitsev, Roman Polak, Jake Gardner, and Morgan Rielly. Good Zaitsev, though. Good. What's so funny about... That's crazy.

What's crazy about looking back through some of these teams is you go... You remember the peak of their career. Like, oh, they had Joe Thornton. They had Patrick Marleau. That's what I'm saying. You know, when you realize

where these guys were at different stages in their career, it's a little different. Can I tell you which team it definitely wasn't? Which one? 2020. Dyson Berry year.

Yeah, well, that team was... The non-playoff year. Yeah. That team was on the way out of the playoffs. That's what I'm saying. That year was the stinker year. That was the... This team has never been more fraudulent.

Kapanen, Robertson, Stacey, Dermott, Janssen, Gauthier. Can you give me one Riley Nash Leafs memory? There was one. Did he play? Did he play a single game? He got in. War number 20. He did.

War number 20. I'm surprised they retired. I couldn't believe Edmondson got to wear it. War number 20. Yeah. And my memory was people going, he's going to lock people down come playoff time. He's ready. No, because he had been hurt and then he showed up.

Yeah, they LTI-ered him. Yeah, but that was it. They LTI-ered him and they were like, wait until this guy gets in the playoffs and then he's locking everybody down and lock people down he did not no no he was hurt i love those are my memories i just narratives and numbers 2018 2019 to me was a really good one against the bruins when they lost again in game seven there you know what's funny is i've yanson dermot cadre captain tyler ennis which i just completely forgot was the thing actually pretty good jake gardner patrick marlo jake muzzin trevor moore zach hyman ron hainsey connor brown nakita zaitsev freddie goachia great example of remembering

names not where they were in their career because you hear trevor moore and you're like they had a 30 goal guy or whatever more is going to be this year he wasn't that at that point absolutely body bags adenoara in that series sent him packing into the boards really hard. I was actually looking into this once upon a time the you know, they have been competitive in these first round series that they've lost so that they've

actually won a lot of playoff games. Like if you're Austin Matthews, he's probably won three playoff games a year for seven years. It's probably a 20 playoff wins or something. You know, I'm thinking too with this question about the core and the things around them? So I think I'm with you, Bourne, like looking at the teams. It's the North Division.

I do want to talk about this year's team again. We will. I think it is the North Division team in terms of deepest, and that was the, if they're healthy, they they probably go on a run it's probably the best team that they had i also think tavarez got hurt there too for sure yeah minutes into the first game i think that one of the big ones in this in terms of core around them is jack campbell that year was red hot and awesome and if you're talking about like how you actually felt in net out of all the goalies they've ever had like playoff freddie anderson was always spooky

right i liked it more than you guys this is oh i love no are you kidding i love it i still Out of all the goalies they've ever had, like, playoff Freddie Anderson was always spooky, right? I liked it more than you guys. Oh, I love... No, are you kidding? I love Freddie Anderson. I still apologize for him to this day. I still have a committee. He's my number one crosshairs guy.

Yeah, like, he's had no music in... Oh, yeah. It's a blood feud. It's almost ended our friendship at times. But he's let bad goals, and in the playoffs, it was like, oh, okay, so this is where the friendship dies. Yeah. Samsonov last oh, okay, so this is where the friendship dies. Samsonov last year, he felt good.

Still is Ilya Samsonov. And Jack Campbell, we thought for a second, was like, guy, guy, guy. The Oilers did too because they gave him all the money. They said, look at this guy. He's amazing. We should give him all the money. But if you were doing like the confidence rankings of the goaltenders, where they were at heading into the postseasons every single year outside of maybe Freddie year one,

it's got to be Jack Campbell. And this is the worst year by... Far. Far. Unless that depends on how you feel. Well, there was some Vesna buzz for Jack Campbell during that season. The first three months, remember we were doing six times six conversation. I remember that.

I actually compared him to Cujo and said, give it to him. That was a tough take. Yeah, but you brought that up. Whatever. I mean, I said a lot of dumb stuff. I remember that. I said, I called, I actually compared him to Cujo and said, give it to him. Yeah. And it was a tough take. Yeah, but you brought that up. Yeah, whatever. I mean,

I said a lot of dumb stuff. I talk for two hours a day every day. I said a lot of dumb stuff, buddy. Yeah, I was going to say, it's almost like you're trying to. The,

I just, what really stuck out to me going through all these is that this year isn't that bad in terms of measuring up to what they've got. It's not the best, but I do think that there is plenty there.

If the Stars play, I guess the biggest difference would be at a point at where John Tavares is in terms of his play that's not as high as it has been in years past. That's not a part of this exercise. No, that's what I mean. But to me, the core around the stars is good enough for them to win. It just comes down to them being good enough for them to win. Again.

Your thought on this core? Yeah, like this surrounding cast. Sorry, this surrounding cast. I think that there's more here to be unlocked. I never felt like anyone was Tyler Bertuzzi, like a fifth guy who had a 30-goal season and played and has had playoff success. Like, I feel like he could still, like, in those Boston games,

as much as you felt bad about other things, you felt like, oh, that's it. That's the guy we thought we had there. You saw Domi being competitive. Like, there were these glimpses of I think all we said a lot was that we wanted this team to be different they didn't have to be better we just needed a different look they couldn't be the same I feel like it is different I don't know if it's going to be successful but it's different so if I was really going to like boil this down in the most

simplistic way I felt good about the Leafs going into the postseason twice. It was... This year won? No. No. Last year. It was last year. That team, that... And they won a playoff round. Yeah.

And it was the North Division year where they were going to... And it wasn't just the Montreal Canadiens. We didn't know. It's a bit fraudulent. It's hard to really figure out what they had because they played a bunch of bad teams, essentially, for the entire year. A bunch of checked-out teams that hated being there.

Yeah, and it was in the bubble. There's all these different things. But I'm just saying, heading into the postseason times where I was really allowing myself to believe and go, man, maybe they could make some noise. It was those two years. This year, what I will say is slotted in sort of third, where I'm going

if you believe that in the years past, the defensive style has resulted too much that way where they couldn't get that secondary scoring, I just think I could see a scenario where nize mcmahon domi bertuzzi a lot of these other guys actually end up with a big goal in a playoff series the one that you guys are talking about and we'll see kind of how that materializes for sure and i also think heading into it like last year the big complaint was the leafs are going to finish second the division and they're still going to draw tampa it was like you know what they can't get away from tampa you know the tampa bay lightning at that point they would have won the cup the year

before this year you know it's now feeling more like it's it's looking like boston i am the lone person i feel like that i ever talked to is like i don't think boss is that great like i know they just beat the leafs a couple times i got plenty of excuses, I don't think Boston's that great. Like I know they just beat the Leafs a couple of times. I got plenty of excuses why I don't think it went the Leafs way in those games. I'm not, I don't know. Did they have a shot this year?

I just got a great, I've been to the future. Prepare yourself for a first round exit. Thank you. We get that text in response to just about everything oh I love that I do before we lose Bunk

recommend that you check out his show the JD Bunker show and Leaf Talk and Leaf Talk also a Bunk show Leaf Talk is really good I get to hang out

sometimes he loves it so much it's his favorite show that's why he got the name right he's like oh my god every day I'm just always downloading

the show I don't know and follow Bunk on Instagram and Twitter at JD Bunkus Bunk on Instagram and Twitter, at JDBunkusBunk. Thanks for joining us, pal. Always a pleasure, fella. All right, we will be back after this.

We're going to talk to Kristen Shilton of ESPN, and we'll catch you next time.