Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: No Mo, No Problem

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee are back from the long weekend and they start with the news that Morgan Rielly's suspension being upheld and the team's success without him. Then, they get into the Leafs' 4-2 win against the Blues yesterday - Marner and Matthews clicking, Knies having a bigger impact and a look at special teams with Nylander playing the PK and Bertuzzi getting the nod on PP1 over Tavares. Finally, former Leafs GM Gord Stellick (34:53) weighs in on the odd trend of the Leafs winning without top players in the lineup, McMann's grit, the goalie situation and why the Treliving should be conservative at the deadline.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

welcome in it's the well-rested real kipper and born show leaf edition for the next two hours nick kiprios justin bourne sammy mckee derrick brando, and Jen Rolnick. Wherever you're watching and listening, Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6. We're glad you're aboard. When you don't get us live, give us a download wherever you get your pods. That's easily the most notes I've ever seen you make on your paper. Well, you know, I said we were well-rested,

and we are because we're coming off of a family day weekend. In which we all worked on Monday. Yeah, does it count, though? We did the Leaf game. Yeah, I just did an hour after the game. And they didn't even ask us for a post. It was great. We just watched hockey and talked about it a bit and left it.

Kind of cool. That was nice. But do you not feel a little well-rested? Yeah, I feel good. No complaints here. Love it. Ready to rock. Anything exciting? For the weekend? Yeah. No. No, I mean, I went to the PWHL game

on Friday. Yeah, how was that? It was good. Really good crowd. People were fired up, but other than that, nothing. Literally nothing exciting. JB? Nothing. Exciting? Family day? You know, I don't remember anything. Yeah, I was around my kids a bit. other than that nothing literally nothing exciting jb nothing family day you know my life i don't remember anything yeah i was around my kids a bit my wife and i snuck up to calling wood oh nice yeah uh you see no no i went i went all doug mclean pickleball you did you played pickleball first time how was it well i didn't really understand

the rules so i'm thinking i'm like a giant on a ping pong table smashing the ball over the net and you can't in this area you cannot smash it over the net you got to be back off of a certain line back row you can smash from the back row but you can't move up within uh like three feet of the net unless the ball drops first right i didn't know that people looked at me like i had three heads get them out of here he's a goon yes but it took me a while but i got the hang of it that's great is that in your future like doug do you see yourself doing that um i kind of got hooked a little bit yeah oh you like it i didn't mind it uh but you gotta get a feel for the lighter racket the lighter ball you don't have to just placement more than power so that's my evolution

of aging you know that oh i i'm telling you i'm old right now but for sure there is no comparison dinosaur there's no comparison between with fun between tennis and pickleball what do you mean tennis is so fun and way more fun and you play pickleball yeah of course yeah listen you could get hurt in pickleball too you can snap an achilles tendon very easily in that sport tennis is a lot of fun to play but it's but it's just the progression of age where it's like you don't want to cover the full court. You want to stand there. And now there's pro leagues and it's on ESPN.

So there you go. I also went up. I got a buddy up there, Cammy, and I just want to tell this story to you because, Sammy, you probably appreciate this. You're in my neck of the woods up there. Yeah. So my buddy Cammy's not a golfer okay

but in 2004 somehow some way found himself as the as the range um the range marshal at the 2004 british open at uh royal troon as a non-golfer. Okay. Yeah. So basically his job was to escort the players to their range and then get them to the first tee. And he had, the story goes he had Greg Norman with him. Yeah. And someone, the little kid gave Greg Norman a hat to sign. Yeah. And Greg Norman signed it and he threw it like 20 feet away from the guy, the kid.

So my buddy, I think, had a few choice words to give Greg Norman a bit of a dick move. So they had to separate them. Oh, he almost came to blows. Yeah, well, I don't, I mean,

it was not, it was, you know, he definitely told Norman what he thought of the move, the bad throw, the bad toss. But anyways, to make a long story short, he ended up getting fired. Greg Norman is not an overly popular man. He sounds by many accounts to be a bit of a great first day. Nice job, though. Well done.

The 2004 Open Championship was won by Todd Hamilton. Oh, the great Todd Hamilton. Oh, Todd. You went on a date with him. Wasn't that a movie? I don't know. He also ended up in the pub, I think, the Thursday night and had one too many.

That may have also factored into his firing. That's when he suckered Greg. Anyways. Great story. Good story. All right. Where do you want to start here? Because the Leafs are in a bit of a roll.

Austin's on a roll. Yet we get news that Morgan Riley's suspension is upheld by Gary Bettman at five games. Yeah, I'll start there. Yeah. Okay. Never really stood a chance, did it? I stood a chance to be brought back one game. Yeah, I think they had a fair case.

Yeah. There's an interesting note at the end of the whole ruling from betman which by the way it's hilarious there's an 11 page thing like the documents i printed off for you guys you can pour over those super official i skimmed through them and there's just like nothing no that you could get out of them the only thing is that he says um the nhlpa argued that the recent sixth game for david perron should not be uh or should not be considered a comparator because the pending appeal from uh batman so they couldn't use the perron case is the is the point and the prawn case to me is the biggest one where it's like it was so much should have been dialed back so far from that suspension

to me because of no injury, because of no history, because of so many other factors. And they couldn't use that one. So that was the only noteworthy thing. The only thing that stood out for me was the fact that he made it a point to say it was a perceived disrespectful act. Yeah. That it was perceived, but we didn't see it as anything other than just.

Yeah. So they don't want to, and I don't really blame Batman on this. I thought the Leafs had a terrible case here. That you can't pick and choose what you deem is disrespectful. It's such a fine line where we have these unwritten rules, and it's like he's not going to sit there and decipher what's unwritten or disrespectful. Only the players can do that that are on the ice. Yeah, Bettman's ruling makes it clear that it says Shanahan and Tree Living tried to make the case

that what Ridley Gregg did was provocative and tried to embarrass the Leafs or whatever. Which are facts. Okay, yeah, which are facts. But it's not a good case. But Bettman says they're irrelevant. They're irrelevant facts. Yeah, he scored a goal.

Yeah, if you swear at me, I can't shoot you with a gun. You know, it's not like what the act that precedes your action is irrelevant. You can't do that regardless of what the player said or did. You're not allowed to do what he did. If you're making that case, I think that holds much more water with, like, a former player type as opposed to the commissioner of the league. Yeah. He's like, so he scored too hard? Exactly. That's what type as opposed to the commissioner of the league. Yeah. He's like,

so he scored too hard. Exactly. That's what he's going to look at you and say. It's not reflexive. It wasn't an instant reaction. Riley had time to make his decision. So whatever, four or five,

whatever. Since this whole appeal, I think there's only two suspensions where he's actually brought them down. And we know the, the spats is one of them and what was the other one the clipping one there was like a clipping one that he brought back i only remember uh 2012 raffy torres got suspended in the playoffs remember they gave him 25 games and i think it was brendan shanahan they gave him 25 games and then Bettman brought it down to 21 games does that make sense?

sounds about right there was another one though, Elliot had a couple last week in his article there was one other smaller one where he might have brought it back or maybe Bettman didn't there was some real conspiracy theorists on Rafi Torres one as well because

they went into a shutdown for a CBA in 2012. So there's a lot of people that think Gary brought it down four games. So when they renegotiate and they went through supplementary discipline, you can say, hey, appeals work. Oh, you think so? Leave it the way it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Appeals work.

Right. That would be very Gary. I would be extremely unshocked if that were the truth. Not a bad move. No. It worked because he's still in control. I saw, oh, God, was it the active stick or someone on Twitter tweeted, like, you know, it's hilarious to appeal to Bebop and Rocksteady.

They suspend you, and then you go to Shredder for the appeal. Yeah, 100%. It's like, you know, like, the idea that you appeal to Bettman is irrelevant. It's just silly. I think the bigger conversation here now is that the Leafs are 4-0 and on the brink of 5-0 without Morgan Riley in the lineup. Yeah, I will say, Kip, the only Leafs conversations I've had in the last couple days were people, the random conversations.

People are like, do you make anything of the Leafs record without Riley? Yes. You do? Yes. They are. I do. They are 29-11-4. It's not exactly a small sample size here. It's significant. But then the implication that you make something of it

is that you think they're better off without Riley. No. I just think they're more disciplined without Riley. They play differently without Riley. They do play differently without Riley. Yes. Really? And I do buy into it.

Well, one thing I know for sure is you've got a couple of call-ups who are content to bang it off the glass and out and not make a mistake, and you don't always have that in the lineup. So here's what we're heading towards. The last year when he got hurt against the Islanders, the team that we were at last year, then he came back after however he was long and they lost their first game against the Coyotes

and everyone's like, oh, see, he's a problem. They're going to play tomorrow night against the Arizona Coyotes who have lost 10 games in a row. 10 in a row, they're garbage. Heading into tomorrow night with the Leafs playing really well against bad teams even

and Austin Matthews on the brink of 50 and they're probably going to win that game. And then they're going into the second half of a back-to-back where Morgan Riley returns against the Vegas Golden Knights. And I got to tell you, boys, don't like their chances in that one. This is how it works. We're going to be having the conversation. Yeah, they're going to play Vegas, Colorado, Vegas after Riley comes back,

and everyone's going to be like, Riley, it's your fault. It's your fault. It's not McKinnon shooting it off the wing and bar it down. But anyways, this is but anyways i would like to sneak in that game against arizona i think if i'm morgan definitely would like to get back they went in rather hot remember that lengthy uh the injury yeah they went to they went to and they did lose that game in arizona yeah i think it was like three years three zip or

something lost pretty handling so that's some hockey teams coming up a given but i think it's just the fact that they know who they are back there and they're not trying to do anything out of the ordinary no one's trying to be a morgan riley and skate the puck coast to coast which must make the the coaches pull their hair out just do that when he's in the lineup. You'd think you could convince these guys to be as disciplined, and there's only one green light here, and it belongs to Morgan. Yeah. But I don't know if it's contagious that once 1D sees Morgan

have a little bit of freedom to go behind the net or jump up on the play or or pinch then everybody goes along for the ride as well yeah i also think there's a big pride factor where you're like gosh we rely on this guy so much we don't want to get embarrassed like everyone dial up your focus dial up whatever we we are going to be called upon tonight we're going to be necessary and i think you go into the game with that mindset like oh my god like i'm who was it like a couple of their guys like ben was playing 20 minutes and i think it's a necessary context for this conversation that they're also very good with riley in the lineup yes like they've also won like you know like all these records without

their stars it's like yeah they've just won a lot more games than they've lost in the regulars. They win a lot more than they lose. So, I mean, when you look at that, though, 29-11-4 since 2018-2019 jumps off the page to you. There's just no question it jumps off the page. It does jump off the page. I know what you're going to say. It doesn't jump off the page as much as everybody's record jumps off the page except for Mitch Marner. I know.

Explain that one to me. I hesitated to even put it in there because i knew you'd see that but i had to put it in one guy under 500 when he's not in the lineup it would be legitimately interesting to go through some of like where they were at the time because it is it is notably different when warner is out yeah just i mean there's also the fact that... The engine, boys. Yeah, he's a great player. You know, it hurts to not have him in. Yeah, so... Yeah, that's funny. Anyways, any more about Warner there?

Well, did you see... I don't know if you... You probably saw our conversation yesterday. I don't know if you saw it on Twitter or not, but we were talking about how he was underrated and Bonkus had to take that he was underrated. And I thought over the stretch and i think you know we it's just basically saying what i said for the last year and a half but it's

a contentious it's contentious on the show about matthews and marner and this whole like it's always it's good it's sports talk radio it's supposed to be like that but i do think at this point we can actually meet in the middle here boys boys, where they're both playing really good. I don't think there's two better players on the planet right now. No, they are out of control. They're just, the chemistry's there. Like, Matthews is shooting it in the net all the time. But, like, they've been put on a pillow.

I think they said on the broadcast yesterday that Marner has 22 primary assists on Matthews' goals. It's just, they are clicking. I believe they are now the leafs leaders right for assists uh her connecting on a goal like they pass sitler and mcdonald yeah yeah so it's it's their leaf fans are lucky right there there's a reason coaches coaches keith does not want to separate these guys yeah no it's not it's not coaches. Yeah, I backed out. The only question is, is where is everybody around them? Like, is this basically the feel and the look that you're going to have to have going right into the stretch of the regular season

and then hopefully have these guys still clicking in the playoffs? You know, I think it's really hard. It's a lot harder when you're a team that is built around one way of doing things to continue doing that thing. Like teams take it away. They game plan for it. You know, if you're preparing to play the Leafs, you circle 34 and 16 and whoever else, maybe 88.

You say you slash them every time you can. You're in front of them. You take away their speed. You know, maybe 88. You say you slash them every time you can. You're in front of them. You take away their speed, you know, run interference. You make life miserable. And then you say, make everyone else beat us. And then it's funny. It's it's, it's funny though, that St. Louis would have played them.

What? Two games in just about a week. Exactly. A week. Right. Wasn't it Monday to Monday? And yet credit. They took away Bobby McMahon. They took away the biggest threat.

They're not overly physically challenged by their opponents. Those two guys. Yeah. Yeah, you don't see anyone really being like, but they will be. Well, yeah. You would think. But I'm surprised that St. Louis would be a team that would say, okay, you take away Matthews and Marner, you get in their face, you rub them out a little bit here.

They're the ones that are going to kill you. The Blues played with the heart of, I don't know, a squashed apple. It was just like, ugh. Both the games against the Leafs they had no life how about Krug yeah like what happened to him I don't know what happened to him he was a top-notch defenseman for the Boston Bruins loved crew warranted a long-term contract out of St. Louis and I can't think of a worse defenseman I saw yesterday he was and the crazy part about that is they're in the playoffs. I know.

It just tells you what about the bottom half of the Western Conference. Like, they are ahead of the Predators, ahead of the Wild, ahead of the Squids. I mean, make no mistake, they are the main course for whoever in the first round. Like, they are just dinner for, you know, whether it be Dallas, Vancouver,

whoever they end up seeing. Absolutely. Okay. In, what, what 10 minutes 12 minutes we're going to welcome in gordon stelic uh one of our favorites here on the real kipper and born show uh we'll get into what he sees out of matthews and marner in the meantime let's go to sheldon key for our first kippers clipper on his overview of yesterday's hockey game. I thought we got better as the game went along. It was a snoozer of a first period for us.

Better loved, obviously, the way we started the second period. Took charge of the game there, big-time play by Nisey. And then I thought we played a good second period. It was disappointing to take the penalty that we did and to get scored on like that, but I thought it was a good second period. It's disappointing to take the penalty that we did and to get scored on like that. But I thought it was a good second period for us. And then third period again, you know, Nisey draws a penalty. And we take charge of it again with just, you know, burying our chance there. So all in all, it's a good road game for us.

And we did enough things to win here today. And I thought we played a smart game that minimized any sort of chances or damage that they could inflict on us. Nisey. Nisey. A couple Nisey shout-outs in there. First off, that Nise goal was...

It was really... Nasty. That's the potential that you saw from the moment he left college, that he's just this big body. He could be a power forward. How good or how great remains to be seen, but that's the look that you... That he can do that and that he can score the goal he did against Pittsburgh.

Those aren't your normal 18 goal grinder goals you know like he's what is normal at his age is the lack of consistency or the lack of focus uh from shift to shift game to game and that's all that can be expected at that as a 21 year old coming out of college. Yeah. Let's listen to Sheldon say his piece on Matthew Nye's clip, too. I think he's been working on the puck and making plays. It's a great play that he made to start the game the other day against Anaheim. Passing makes to Austin.

He creates a turnover. He drives the puck deep, creates a turnover after that, and makes a play to the middle of the rank for Austin to finish it. That's taking charge of the first period of the Anaheim game. Today he takes charge of the second period of this game here to get us going. So that's what you're looking for. And I've seen some growth in his game for sure. I think coming out of the break,

it looks like he's got a little more energy to him too, which is obviously important. Yeah, I think that energy is a good point. When he seems energized, he can make game-breaking plays, but when he plays a lot and when it starts to go south for him, that's the time to maybe sit him out or put him on the third or fourth line, just let him have a night to chill. Yeah, but I think in an ideal world,

you would be not half off. Clearly, in an ideal world, you would be not... Well, clearly in an ideal world, he would not be on the top line. But in an ideal world, you would have him in the bottom half of your lineup. And if he's really buzzing there during the start of the game, then you put him up.

You have that luxury. But you just... Right now, with the way the Leafs' left wing position looks, you don't have that luxury. There's no luxury. No, there's no luxury. You have the four, and then you fill it in with everything else, basically.

This is true. Is have the four, and then you fill it in with everything else, basically. This is true. Is this the left side we envision here in three weeks? He doesn't, Brad. Knives, McMahon, Bertuzzi, and Holmberg. It's not terrible. They're missing one elite guy. Can we get Brad May? No, it's not good. I don't think it's that bad. They're missing one elite guy. Can we get Brad May? No, it's not good.

I don't think it's that bad. They're missing a top six guy, for sure. But they're missing other things more, so it's just not where he's going to fix it. You know, if your roof is leaking and your dishwasher's not running, you got to fix the roof first, do you not? Yeah, I don't want wet dishes when they come out

i don't either but i also don't want to live in a wet house so you got to prioritize what's worse your d is worse so patch the roof and then we'll start worrying about appliances okay but either way you're not hosting a party no you're hosting no parties there will not be any champagne served in a house like there. There's no parade. There's no balloon. There's no music. There's no dancing. Sorry, folks.

We're eating off paper plates. That are wet. That are wet. I think it's been more and more abundantly clear that, yes, okay, to your point, you have to prioritize but this forward group

like it's leaky you really liked Marshall Refai did you I think I actually liked Marshall Refai he looked like a guy out of a creative player that you call up from the Marlies. Looks like in two or three years, he could maybe be a steady player.

Yeah. But like, hello, today. Yeah. They got to win today. Oh, yeah. They got to advance in the playoffs in two months, three months. Yeah. Like he's four players from getting in on april 19th

when the first round starts i think if there's one thing that i have been convinced of it's that bobby mcmahon can be a contributor to this team maybe not full-time in the playoffs but like a guy that oh i think he can i i'd not like as a goal no no but i'd still like him to be a guy that you have options where if he's really pushing scorer. No, no, but I'd still like him to be a guy that you have options where if he's really pushing, you can mix him in and out. But, like, he's really showing me something over this last little bit. Like, he really does look good. Which could be really helpful to convince somebody to take him as value

so you can get something that can help you win now. You think? Yes. Yes, he's up to me said that during the game yesterday like to be sure we don't want to just to me high right now he's he's in play robertson's in play holmberg's in play like you're gonna have to give something up if for sure i don't want to give up those guys. I don't care about it. Just get something that is heavy and has experience that can help you win now. Yeah.

I just don't know that he isn't what you would be trying to get. You know what I mean? Like a guy who skates really well will play his role big enough and can shoot one in the net. I think of these teams that Vegas had that great fourth line that could chip in here and there. But that fourth line in many ways was two years in the making, three years in making yeah but bobby's 27 man he's not 23 i know but but you're asking a guy that was yeah an ahl player they wanted him to play on on the lease this year he had a bad camp and yeah well in their opinion but i'm just saying though you can't go from the marlies to proving that you're an everyday player in February

to being a key contributor to try to win a Stanley Cup all within nine months. Not a key contributor. Yeah, for sure. For sure, for sure. But they need key contributors outside of the obvious. I'm talking about fourth line left wing. I'm not talking about more than that.

But if another team, if I'm Bradshaw Living and somebody's calling me and asking me like, hey, what's up with the trio of Nick Robertson and Holmberg and Bobby McMahon, kind of like, you can have Holmberg or Robertson first. Like over McMahon in terms of size, in terms of what he brings to them. It's a little bit more unique. You have to make the guess.

Will Robertson ever become a true difference maker? A 30 plus goal? No. Because if he's going to score 22 goals and play like he plays when he isn't scoring, we didn't have him. Right? But like, will he ever get to another level in the NHL? He might.

Yeah, he can get there sooner than... He can shoot it, boy. On this team i think yeah me too right and now more than ever especially with austin and and mitch at the level that they're at and say what you will about willie and cooling off since he signed his 92 million there's always that threat that he can take that puck from one end to the other and do what he did yesterday. And his production is way back up.

By the way, he's still 100 points. He's still 100 plus. His utter dismissal of Pontus Holmberg on that two- I mean, Holmberg beats everyone up the ice

and it's a great play to use him as a decoy. The goalie's thinking about him. Never thought about it once. But, you know, he was aware enough to use him as a, you know, whatever.

But what a- Just wrister. Hofer's like, oh, he didn't pass. All a, you know, whatever. But what a wrister. Hofer's like, oh, he didn't pass. All right, let's ask Sheldon what he thought of Willie and his game, even as a PK guy. Well, I just think with the more reps he gets, he gets more comfortable with it. You know, I think the most important thing with Willie, you know,

like a lot of really top players, like their strength on the penalty kill is never going to be when the other team's in full possession, snapping it around in the zone. Their strength is going to be on loose pucks and plays where they can sense the opposition is in a little bit of trouble and can anticipate and jump. That's what he did tonight on a number of occasions,

not just on the goal he scored, but that level of anticipation and just being strong on the puck to go the other way was terrific. So that's a huge goal for us and a very underrated effort by Holmberg to sprint up the ice. He beat Torrey Cruz straight up. Doesn't get the pass, but I think he forces the goaltender to get a lot deeper

on that play, and then credit to Willie to recognize how deep the goalie is and just find the open space. Willie is T5 now in shorties in the NHL. That's his third shorthanded goal of the year. You put him on the PK in the playoffs? Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I would too. He's a threat threat and that's something the leafs had for years when it was you know say what you have a dang ball he could skate mckeough could skate like they had all these guys that would push it shorthanded obviously marner's a great shorthanded threat so yeah i think he's valuable in that role um go ahead bert bert on the PP John Tavares stays on the bench Tyler Bertuzzi gets PP1 reps so I get texts from people saying Sheldon listen to us that's like such a radio thing to be like

we did that for sure we told him take John Tavares off the top unit and put Bertuzzi there before we get into that have you ever seen a guy miss high from the neutral zone on an empty net?

Was he trying to go bar down? I don't know. Just skate into the offensive zone and rip it along the ice. Just keep it on the ice. But he had three more strides in front of him. You don't even need the three strides. But I'm with Kip, too. Just slide it on the ice.

You can't miss low. And it's in the net. He missed high. That's a great point. You can't miss low. And it's in the net. It's a great point. It's a great point. You can't miss low. I will say. It's baffling. The comedy of a guy

who's been cursed all year shooting it on an empty net and hearing it bang off the glass was quite funny. I laughed. The thought being, I guess for him, like just,

it's more natural to just kind of roll it off and let it get up a bit. Somebody put a spell on him or something. To be honest, Scott, he's been natural to just kind of roll it off and let it get up a bit. Somebody put a spell on him or something. To be honest, Scott, he's been hexed. Something. It's not good. He did something right.

I don't get it. No, he needs to find, he needs to sacrifice someone into a volcano or something. Well, bang, I'm off the end goal. It just sounds like it'll warm up whenever he's missing the net. Like, oh, no. All right, let's go to Keith on Bertuzzi staying on the top unit. Well, it scored four goals last game, you know, and not just that, but Bert got one too.

So I think there's a chance there to capitalize on some extra momentum, similar type of mindset with McMahon, the way he's been going to keep him up on the third line and to keep him on the power play as well. Trying to capitalize on some of that momentum with those guys. Yeah, not harder than play the hot hands, I guess. And try to get the hand hotter in his case. Yeah, or get it lukewarm.

Yeah, get it out of the freezer. Can we just have like three in his next 11? Sure. So it's not just like a conversation every day about how he's cursed. The fact before he scored that goal, he put one off the inside of the post in a manner that made me think, yeah, like Kipper to your point, that he really needs to atone for some sins or something.

He did something terrible. You think John's okay with it? I think at this stage of his career, he has to understand that this is about making the team better deeper the more success the team has in many ways he he can be viewed as being more successful does that make sense i do you know and i think it's he has to be at the point of his career he's racked up a lot of points and i understand he still wants his points. And I understand everyone does. But he is going to be judged by team success now. Right? I agree.

And I feel like part of maturity and growing up is recognizing that, like, he needs the Toronto Maple Leafs to win. And if that involves, you know, sometimes sitting out a PP or two, hopefully he understands that. For the record, if he doesn't understand that and he's the captain and prioritizes his own stats,

you've got a problem. And I don't think they do have a problem yeah the only thing is is it's it's a pride thing it's an ego thing for sure and it's just from the moment he put on skates i'm sure at age seven with the marlies and the gthl to world juniors to the islanders he's always been the top guy but this is a theme not easy pill to swallow even at his age right but this is a theme of the leafs of your career of people accepting that i lit it up in junior but to stay i need to do something different to be important i need to do something different bobby mcmahon has scored two at levels but he to stay with the leafs he doesn't need to score he needs to hit and four check same with yeah no marshall refi same with i i don't know about that i don't know what's that he he needs he still needs to score he's making 11 million bucks no bobby mcmahon oh you're talking

about tavares okay yeah yeah for tavares there's definitely a level of... He needs to kind of keep some level of... Right. ...importance for sure. I agree with that, but I'm just saying there's a humility. It's a tough pill to swallow that sometimes you need to do less so the team can do more. I'm not saying don't score, but yeah, he needs to accept that his role is different

than it was two years ago or should be. Did you guys notice... I know you always notice this kind of thing that when he came off for the second unit with 30 seconds or 25 seconds or whatever he came flying off the bench picked the guy's pocket and just ripped one high like he looked like the hungriest guy i've ever seen i was like oh and that's not a bad thing either yeah maybe he's not as okay with this as we thought he doesn't have two minutes. Yeah. Go get it done quicker. Yeah.

Efficiency time. Yeah. You know, just for, you know, we were talking about the bottom six and guys that could mix in and trade for whatever. Just checking. Corey Perry's four points in eight games plus two. Nine pims. 13 minutes a night.

Yeah. They got him playing with McDavid, dude. Yeah. No one talking about anything. Just, it's all gone away. Probably could have done that here. Anyways. Oh, I don gone away. Probably could have done that here. Anyways. Oh, I don't know if you could have done that here, Phil.

Different pill to swallow in this market with him still coming in. I know. He's been good, and they love him. But just to wrap up on John Tavares, he's still going to have to hold his own behind Matthews, though, somehow, some way. But this last time might be good there. The only concerning part is go back and find his last five-on-five goal.

Does he still not have one? I don't. You tell me. I think it's been a very long time. Sam's on it. Either way, it's been not many in a long time. If he's not going to see a lot of power play time sam's on it so if he's not it's been not many if he's not gonna see a lot of power play time from here on end do you still believe he can be a driver behind matthews are

you asking me about this year or next year now now yeah i don't know do you think he's a driver now his his last uh even strength goal is a concern for me yeah i don't even care if it was a week ago it's one over the past three months can you drive can he still drive a second line i i don't know if he can i think he's really he can chip in i think his last five on five goal if i'm not mistaken or even strength was de December 23rd, 23. Two months. Yeah. I think that's correct.

It's hard. It's hard to score. We know it's a hard league to score, except for Austin. Yeah. Except for Austin. Yeah. Just dumps it in the net like it's a dump in. You want to advance in the playoffs, you two strong lines particularly when the other team does what i talked about off the opening of the show where they say him and him we're gonna

tackle those guys and make other guys beat us it's eyeballs to tavara's do they need to experiment with jt on the left side a little bit more here would you consider willie in the middle just flipping them on the same line yep just to kind of loosen it up a little bit for him. Less responsibility, less work, less down lows. I don't know. That's a good break. It's a terrifying thing to be like, yes, Willie, D-Zone center. Okay.

Just like that, half an hour. We'll let you all know after the break. When we return with Gord Stel stellick former general manager of the leafs up next on the real kipper and born show teeing up the biggest games of the night it's the fan pregame with alish forfar and justin cuthbert weekdays at 6 p.m on sportsnet sportsnet 590 the fan and wherever you get your podcast we're back it's real kipper inborn show leaf edition all right let's welcome in gourd stellick toronto maple leaf analyst for sports at 590 the fan and of course best known as former general manager of your Toronto Maple Leafs. Ladies and gentlemen, Gord Stelic. Kippy, Justin.

Wow. That was pretty good, eh? How are you? That was, yes. So, okay, Gord, we haven't been on the air like 30 minutes. We haven't figured out why the Leafs win without Morgan Riley. So you tell us. Well, or without Austin Matthews win without morgan riley so you you tell us well or without austin matthews without all those guys their records are way better without all

those guys i think i really do think and i don't know how long it's sustainable and kippy you'd be a great example of this that when and i i maintain that even you know we didn't have big winning teams when i was around by and large but people would go oh my god you're missing all these individuals and quite often we'd come up with our best hockey back then and I really whether it's Bobby McMahon whether it's Nick Robertson whatever may be last year they had three defensemen out with Morgan Riley, T.J. Brody and Jake Muzzin and Justin Hall played his best hockey Giordano played a ton you know I mean It just seems to be you get the chance and you rise to the occasion, in the short term anyway.

You know, almost like a coaching change that quite often you get a short-term bounce. So I think that's kind of part of it. I, you know, Bobby McMahon, what a great example. He gave that St. Louis game. I wasn't going to address and got the hat trick. So hopefully this means this kind of jumping up now can that mean a deeper playoff team a more balanced team in the playoffs which is what they've been lacking most years we'll have to wait to see that but certainly guys have seized the opportunity one of those guys

who's been given a little bit more opportunity and thriving bobby mcmahon shooting in the net just all the time all of a sudden which is is pretty cool. Seems to have growing confidence. The guys are kind of giving him a hard time. He feels like he's becoming more a part of this club. Is what he's doing, I understand the goals aren't sustainable, but him being a valued member of the team, something you can see lasting into a playoff run? Well, and even that empty net goal where he got away giving Torrey Krug a muggy.

Yeah, I know. The refs let him have one. Well, you know, like last year in the first round of the playoffs, Michael Bunting's hit, I think on Chernak, unfortunately took him out and got him suspended. And, I mean, you don't want the suspensions, but you do need that element of the game. And Nassim Kadri gave it to you. Again, he went too far in the playoffs.

But you do need, as Brad T game and nasim kadri gave it to you again he went too far in the playoffs but you do need as as uh as as branch or living talked about a little bit more sandpaper a little bit more grit some gristles so i i'd like that he can bring that even and again you go back to the morgan riley thing getting the appropriate reaction from anybody after a shot like that i mean these are the little things that i find really matter and And Bobby McMahon, I didn't realize, I mean, I don't know if his offensive stats can keep up that way, but if he brings that kind of dimension, he could find a really good niche that you need here.

We're talking to Gord Stelic, former general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs, analyst for Sportsnet 590, the fan. So Gord, we've got Austin Matthews on like an historic pace and you have covered the Leafs as long as anyone in terms of, you know, the modern Leafs coming out of their 67 Stanley Cup. Historically, where do you put this?

And is it almost as if Leaf fans are a little guarded here, maybe because of the lack of playoff success, that they're not truly absorbing what they're seeing yet? So it's an interesting question. And Justin, you also brought up a good point about that last week when we were chatting. So first of all, even in the original six era, the Leafs had a lot of team success,

but they were not winning Hart trophies or Art Ross trophies or Norris trophies. You know, they really didn't so much and compared to some of the other like the Montreal Canadiens Detroit Red Wings for example back then so this is really unique in Toronto and I think last week Justin's point was you know Kippy the three of us 20 years from now Lord willing we're sitting around and we're going to be talking about some phenomenal Leaf players probably the greatest player ever in Austin Matthews. Mitch Marner should be considered right up there as well.

Who knows where Willie Nylander goes? And this really is a special, fun, enjoyable, talented era about those elite players. But again, there'll be that element of emptiness if there is no playoff success forthcoming. And right now now they're not the age of the tampa bay lightning players are which are seeing the effects of that they're still in their prime but oh my god if the florida panthers now pass them are they the new kids on the block are we ever going to see that in toronto those sustained and deep playoff runs but you can't lose track about this is probably the greatest Leaf player ever,

Austin Matthews. This may be the greatest offensive output season ever by a Toronto Maple Leaf player. And then you throw Marner, Nylander, and the others in there. It's something pretty special. Yeah, it's funny. We actually didn't talk about Matthews' goals, I don't think at all, in the first half an hour

because Kip and I did it for 20 minutes before the game yesterday. So we talked about it ad nauseum, but barely mentioned mentioned it today and the guy had four goals since we last had a show pretty impressive stuff um you know we we also have talked pretty regularly about the goaltending with you ilya samsonov was pretty good last game i didn't think overly tested but i mean could you get to a point where you go okay i, I think Sam and J.D. talked about he's the real starter over Joe Wohl on the weekend. Maybe Bunk did. Bunk did. Okay.

What are your thoughts on where Samsonov's at? Yeah, you got to watch Sammy and that with his off-the-wheels projection. He gets excited about anything, you know, whatever. A guy makes two saves. He's talking Vesna. So I always felt great about Freddie Andersonerson and he never delivered in the playoffs these guys i don't feel great about but as long as one of them could do it and i believe they can then that's all you need and i every time is there a matt murray sighting too as well like i mean i'm

not thinking he'd be there but i i mean he may even be around as well but yeah but i yeah joe wall i think is going to be their first really developed goaltender since Felix Pothen. I really like what I saw. I give Samsonov tons of credit and the team about how they handled it. I don't know if Martin Jones can do it in the playoffs, but he certainly came up at a critical time. They've all come through in different measures. Can one of them give you or maybe two because Bobrovsky didn't start the first game for last year for Florida and Vegas went through two

goaltenders as well give you a minimum good enough goaltending to win playoff games or ideally steal an odd playoff game or steal a series Felix Poppen got three shutouts in one series in 1994 against Chicago I mean that's what you'd love to see at some point, different ways that you find ways to win playoff series. And I believe these guys can do it. Am I doing cartwheels? Well, I don't do cartwheels for starter. But do I have some trepidation?

Do I say, you got to show me? Yeah, I'm in that particular boat. But we look at the East, Gordon, and we say, who exactly is doing cart wheels lately the boston bruins have gone south in the last couple of weeks and so has their their goaltendings you know come down to earth you mentioned bobrovsky and yes he he's been good lately but would you put the last four years up against the last year and a half and and and be totally confident that he's still going to get

the job done and then shisterkin i'm watching the outdoor game and i'm watching bo horvath put the puck right through him yeah and all of a sudden you're like okay if the leafs aren't feeling that great about their goaltending well guess what so are a lot of other teams well and you add vasilevsky to the mix as well you know that, that's a real good point about, you know, Shusterkin had that phenomenal season that he's not quite replicated. And then Vasilevsky, I know the players ranked him in their poll as the number one goaltender, but even last year in the playoffs, that was, for him, an ordinary playoff.

So it's funny. Yeah, it's, you know, Chicago won that one playoff when Corey Crawford just got criticized every playoff round and they just went and won it anyway because he gave them good enough goaltending to win it. And I'm thinking of the days of, you know, a goaltender actually being the story in the playoffs, right? Being the guy. And I really don't can't think of so many in recent history that that's been the Patrick Watt type story when he was a player or what have you. So, again, it's just good enough to win to keep you in the game, not cost you any games. Because you look at it, Lundqvist is gone. Carey Price is gone.

Pekka Rinne is gone. I don't know if it's because a lot of league goaltenders left at the same time or what it is. But you're right you don't have that wow that wow factor about that number of quantity of nhl goaltenders like we did a decade or two ago well speaking of a decade or two ago we're even past that gourd uh you know marshall refi plays for the toronto maple leafs last night and he i mean they're without riley giordano clingberg if you like lagason timmons like he's probably their 12th guy on the depth chart. You know, what would have looked like

when you played Kip and Gord, when you were the GM, if you called up the 12th best defenseman in your organization, like do these orgs deserve some credit for having guys that far down who can step in and look pretty capable? Boy, yeah.

You know, I think I'd be broadcasting a lot sooner if you're down to your 12th defenseman like maybe i i remember once we made a trade just for a body uh and that's why i always talk about that that last year he might have had to do that kyle dubas when he had three defenseman injured we got a guy named mike stothers who played for hershey in the philadelphia organization we had to do that uh we called up a junior before, like Daryl Shannon. I'm not sure if DJ Smith got called up when he was a junior or not, but we're talking about 8, 9, 10. I mean, it's the toughest position to learn to play.

And one thing that's changed too, Justin, is they're really being taught how to play in the minors. They're coming out so well taught now, whether it's NCAA junior. You could argue maybe too much sometimes, but sometimes you threw them on your American League team. ought now yeah whether it's ncaa junior you could argue maybe too much sometimes but you know that sometimes that you threw him on your american league team it was a crony of the general manager was coaching it wasn't a lot of teaching you know there was no there weren't even assistant coaches so you plunked them up there and you said okay uh go on the deep end of the pool and see what

happens but that is uh that that and and again let's let's let's have it matter in the playoffs let's find the depth in the playoffs that you can throw four lines out there that Austin Matthews isn't playing 28 minutes and Mitch Marner isn't playing 27 minutes and on and on and on. Let's find that because that's always a difference maker in the team that ultimately wins it. So saying that, Gord, you're on board that Tree Living and Shanahan got to do whatever it takes at the trade deadline to

to beef this thing up here you've got two of the hottest scorers on the planet in Marner and Matthews they're in their prime Willie looks like he can still score even if he disappears for 57 minutes he can still break a game open with one dash down the

ice you have to do whatever it takes now if you're the Toronto Maple You have to do whatever it takes now. If you're the Toronto Maple Leafs to get ready for, for the playoffs. What does that, what does that statement mean? First, first rounders,

first rounders, prospects outside of maybe Nyes or, or Cowan. No, yes. No, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no no no no you're gonna sit and wait for another three years gourd if you don't go for it this year what what do you talk about how did it happen the last few years when they gave up stuff i'm sorry that it won't be the same headlines for sportsnet and the fan like wow the leafs do whatever that they're instead at the back thing and by the way the leafs got neil padoink for i know it's pionk whatever you know so I'm just saying make some smart depth moves those quite often are the ones that you know hey

Ron Hainsey in Pittsburgh Trevor Daly in Pittsburgh Steve Thomas years ago with the Anaheim Ducks whatever those kind of ones you cannot keep giving up assets it has not worked the big guns have to be the leaders there and other guys have to come up and play and get the opportunity to show they can provide the depth or not. I'm so happy you're not the general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs right now. A lot of people are very happy. We need to come up action. You would make our show so boring, Gord Stelic.

But not this show. No. He doesn't make our real show boring. No, no, no. Always bringing it to the fans. Well, okay, but who are they supposed to get? Who are they getting, Kippy? Who are they getting?

I still think that they need Tanev more than anything else out there. When Morgan returns, he needs a guy like Chris Tanev to play beside him. That's what I think. Well, and I like it. I remember years ago they couldn't get Rob Blake. They were going to take him as a hired gun, and I'd like it. I remember years ago, they couldn't get, they couldn't get Rob Blake. They were going to take him as a hired gun, but he would not hire. He would not sign beyond. And of course he wasn't going to have no problem signing here.

Well, okay. Bring me 10. I would, I would look at that. I'm not backing down. Kippy. Okay. I'm still like, we can't keep every year. Ryan O'Reilly to the rescue.

Nick Foligno. Giordano. Come on. That's a bad horse impersonation. But, you know, they got the big guns. They're the guys, okay? They get the Stanley Cup first if you get it. The others are complimentary pieces.

All right. Good enough until next week. We'll bring you back and we'll see if you change your mind, okay? Okay. Gordon Stelic, everybody. Thanks, Gordo. Appreciate it. See you, guys.

The Leafs are in on Tanev. They're on the outside looking in right now. There's better offers. You know, I don't know my real opinion on the Tanev thing. They should just give him the first right now and get him. They should just do it. He'll resign here. now and get him. They should just do it. He'll resign here. You'll keep Tana. You know how

better Morgan Riley gets with that guy beside you? And all of a sudden, then your pair is you can do Benoit and McCabe and Brody with Lillik. And then he blocks a shot with his face. I say give up the first form. You'll sign him to four and a half, five million dollars for the next. No, it'll be fine.

Brody's gone. There'll be a lot of guys No, it'll be fine. Brody's gone. There'll be a lot of guys gone. You'll be fine. Is Brody part of the trade? No, the salary will disappear, right? For next year. That's all. They'll make it work.

It's easy. Money in, money out. No problem. Okay, still plenty more on the Real Kipper Inborn Show. Sean Reynolds, as we discuss Winnipeg and Minnesota. Remember last time what happened? I do. We'll let you know after we take a

break. More Real Kipper and Bourne coming up next.