Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Pierre's Payback

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the Leafs' loss last night to the Islanders at home, Pierre Engvall's odd video tribute ahead of his game-winner, a concerning amount of defensive lapses, Keefe's deployment of the power play, Liljegren's role and Samsonov's performance. They are joined by former NHL exec Mike Futa (33:16), who weighs in on the physical aspect of Knies' game, the Leafs' mistake-prone blueline, what the team should do at the deadline and if a coaching change is on the table. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

let's welcome everybody into the real kipper and born show nick kiprio's justin born sammy mckee i'm starting to get my pipes back a little bit you sound good better you sound good not all the way there yet though no you're not quite're not quite Celine Dion like you were. Did she get snubbed by Taylor Swift, yes or no? Oh, I didn't even see it. Was that a thing? Yes. I'm so glad I don't know what you're talking about. No Grammys for you guys.

Background. I played hockey on Sunday night, and I came home, and I saw Miley Cyrus perform. Yes. Loved it. Yes. And I saw Tracy Chapman and Luke Combs perform. Loved it. Off the charts.

But that's all I saw. Off the charts moment. Awesome. Really great. Tracy. Yeah. She rules. She nailed it.

As far as the snub, apparently Taylor just went and grabbed the Grammy from Celine Dion who was presenting. Oh. And she grabbed it. Did she honor the great Celine? She grabbed it like I was presenting. Oh. She didn't honor the great Celine? She grabbed it like I was presenting it to her. She was like, here you peon, give me that. Yeah, scram, beat it.

Yeah. It's my moment now. Oh, that's too bad. Well, there's a lot going on. Yeah. Yeah, she's about to announce her next album. Maybe we'll give her the benefit of the doubt. It's almost like Gary robbing away all the Canadian hockey teams.

It's like Gary is Taylor Swift and Celine Dion is poor old Canada with no more teams. Well, we're glad everybody's on board for today's version of the Nick Kiprio show. Can you guys just go away, guys? I've got this all by myself. I'll take a day off. In fact, we do have a real Kipper and Bourne show. Sports at 590, Sports at 360, Sports at Plus from 4 to 6, wherever you're watching or listening.

We're glad you're with us, and you can always download us wherever you get your pod or go to YouTube. We're Sammy, we're part of again. I just found out that's where my mom takes in our show. She watches the YouTube daily show. Awesome stuff. I went to the YouTube page yesterday

to check out our show from yesterday to grab a clip of me talking about Conor McDavid loving Toronto to upload to my TikTok account that I'm trying to grab. How many people did you piss off? A lot. But that's beside the point. A lot of people watch our show on YouTube, boys.

Is that right? I was like, okay. I guess we're a popular show everywhere. I know. I'm sorry that we're not in the chat like we used to be. Yeah, that was fun. Those were good old days. So for all of you that are watching on YouTube, we miss you and we love you.

So there you go. Absolutely. All right. I got to admit, watching the Leafs last night against the New York Islanders, late in the third, Pierre Engvall scored. And the first person I think of is our Sammy. Yeah. Who said on the show when discussing who to bet on, bet on Engvall scoring.

Can I be the first to say having a pierre engvall tribute is embarrassing i know i'm not even a tribute but just even acknowledging welcome back pierre thank you for the four years he didn't do he wasn't in the army he didn't devote his service they paid him when did this happen i mean pierre Engvall's getting a shout-out? Come on. He's not the first average guy to play and leave. No. So when did this happen? I don't know. Justin Hall got one earlier this year. Wait, this is the ultimate participation award.

You should have to show up on a list, a top 10 list. He's 10th in games played or penalty minutes or B, have contributed in a significant way. Are we at the point where the Leafs organization or any other organization feel like if we don't do it, someone's going to call us out on Engvall. Oh, they didn't give a Pierre Engvall. They didn't do a Dubas one. To me, this makes the Dubas one look like not doing it all the more petty. You're going to give Engvall one, but you're not going to give Dubas one?

So if we're going to do it on popularity, Engvall? Like, is it a like thing? Like, this guy's hall was kind of liked a bit? I gotta tell you. We're all liked. With the exception of Dubas. We're all liked. I draw the absolute line of Pierre Engvall.

That was absurd. I am so offended they did it. I truly can't believe it. Guys drafted seventh, played like 200 games. No big moments. Four points in 17 playoffs game. I mean, anytime you can honor a guy I truly can't believe it. Guys drafted seventh, played like 200 games. No big moments. Four points in 17 playoffs games. I mean, anytime you can honor a guy with four points in 17 playoffs games,

you got to do it. Oh, my God. Sorry to derail the conversation. It's absurd they did it. I'm sorry, Elyse, but it's absurd. Clearly, it juiced them up for the game-winning goal then. There you go. They're embarrassing themselves.

He was emotionally invested. He went to the blue paint where he found a hockey puck which he doesn't do a lot snapped a 13 game goal is trout that's nice first point nine that's nice so you know my thoughts they're very well documented on pierre angvall i don't think anybody's coming here being surprised by that but that's you know doing this show every day like regular season you get a little bit more disconnected in terms of like the passion and love that one hurt a lot when that one slid

underneath Ilya Samsonov I legitimately looked away no that wasn't 18 was it yesterday on our show we did have an early conversation on coming out so quickly from the All-Star game and whether we're going to see rust or rest.

What did you see last night, JV? You know, I thought the guys were pretty good. Even the stars that played over the All-Star weekend, I thought Marner had his legs. I thought, you know, you saw some rest from Tavares and Nyes, which I actually predicted on yesterday's show. I thought they both looked really good. Matthews, Neylander, I thought the guys looked good, to be honest.

They created a ton of chances. Sheldon Keefe's going to say in one of these clips that, you know, that's a game we could have, should have won sort of thing. And I agree. I would chance the Islanders and should have won that game. That would be clip number one. Would you like to hear his concise thoughts on it? I would love that.

Okay. I thought we played well enough to thoughts on it? I would love that. Okay. I thought we played well enough to win, but did just enough to lose. And that's why you lose games. Just enough to lose. Thanks for coming, everybody. That's been the show. You replay that game ten times, you probably win nine of them. Okay, I'm sorry.

Was that a clip from last night? Yes. Because I've seen this scenario probably five or six times this year. Yeah. Winnable games that they find a way to lose. Yeah. So it was from last night, correct? Yes.

It could have been from a number of losses this year. And the theme to me is that when it's tight, I don't trust this team's defense-goaltending combo. I just don't feel good about it. They have too many guys that make brain farts on their own end, and I don't trust the goaltending to come up with big saves. Last night was one of those things. They get in their own zone, and it's just like, oh, there it is.

And that's what kills you about the go-ahead goal, other than Engvall shooting it in the net. It's not like it was your fourth line caught out there against their top guys. It's one of your best lines caught out there, and we went over the goal multiple times watching before you come on here. Multiple breakdowns from all some of your top guys. Riley and Brody, your top pair, and you don't trust them in that situation? It's like, boy.

It's just a very soft play.'d you see a very soft play all around i said brody continues to have trouble here and i don't know if it's just he's lost that much of a step. But everything's a little slower for him. And I did not like, and as Sammy said, we watched the play, the game winning goal multiple times. I didn't like the fact that Brody went to Morgan and Morgan was not in the best position to receive you think the priority put him in a bad spot

if Morgan would have got there quicker if Morgan would have had his toes up the ice he was actually facing the glass and had to kind of adjust to the point where he didn't have enough time this is on a d to d behind the net d to d behind so did brody make the right play and and morgan was just too slow or too lazy i don't know which one of the two you want to say to get to that spot or did brody put him in a position there that he just didn't have enough time to to make the the right play because morgan is taking a lot of heat for that today yeah but i'm not sure brody put him in the best position so brody doesn't put him in a great spot morgan doesn't do anything good with it he tries to one touch it up the wall the willie who you know the the pass gets picked off um and i believe it's

nelson who cuts underneath willie and makes the seam pass for the one timer there but then willie leaves he leaves he starts leaving the zone like you know after the shot he's gonna get a breakaway pass two minutes left in two two game and he's not able to get back to the slot as the weak side wing for the one-timer the you know that happens before ring ball taps it in the net so you've got a soft play from riley neilander rushing up the rink you know i, I'd like to see Tavares lower. It's just a bad. Well, you know how I felt about Willie blowing the zone for a long time now.

And last night, I've stopped blaming Willie. Coach. Coach. Yeah. That is not Willie doing whatever Willie wants wants that's sheldon and his system oh you think so they do weak side like push the pace or whatever or the weak side winger will fly the zone they try to chip it out and so the idea being that even if you don't get the pocket pushes the opposing d back and you've got more room underneath to make a breakout. Willie's told to go. Yeah.

And I grew up in the era where you don't leave the zone until the puck leaves the zone. Same. Yeah. You know, Babcock used to do this too, where he wanted his weak side guys to go. But, like, it's got to be situational. It can't be all game states.

You're right. And you have to have players intelligent enough to read the tea leaves here. situation it can't be all game states you're right and you have to have players intelligent enough to to to read the tea leaves here like we've turned the puck over we are on defense so that yeah that that bothered a lot of i think a lot of leaf fans last night watching that uh that game-winning goal that should have, at the very least, given the Leafs a point, if not an excellent chance at two.

And you mentioned it with the things happening, things that have happened over and talking about different games, it feels like the same game. You know, there's two, they win the game 3-2, and there's two really bad mistakes that lead to two of the goals and they end up losing by one it's hard, not often that you can just come in and talk about the exact moments where you lose a hockey game

but these mistakes and at some point you have to answer the questions of why these mistakes constantly happen is it personnel, which I'm definitely willing to have the conversation with because, boys, that lineup last night, looking pretty thin in the bottom half of the forward group,

and we know about the defense. Is it coaching? Is it the systems? They just make way too many mistakes like this. We've got a number of clips on this. We have the breakdowns that led to the goal, confidence in the decor, and we have Sheldon on the one that you added late. Play the clip two,

Keefe clip two on, so you can kind of get a tone of how he felt about that breakaway goal that gave him the lead. This is the National Hockey League. Keep that clip. That's peewee stuff. It's nothing to do with the season or anything like that. You play on the power play in the National Hockey

League, they should not get behind you coming out of the penalty box. The National Hockey League. That's peewee stuff. There's a drop, by the way. I know, but it's a great soundbite for us

first of all. And one we're going to keep for a very long time. Okay? Okay. Already clipped by Derek Braddale. first of all and one we're going to keep for a very long time okay already by derrick brandale uh but like this is where i i need somebody in the media to say like what what was peewee like was it lilligren not knowing? Was it the goalie, Samsonov, not banging his stick? Remember that one when we were kids? Of course I do.

Of course. Hey, someone's coming out. I feel like that still happens. Every rink plays like a sound now. I didn't hear him slapping his stick. No, I didn't either. I didn't hear him yelling at Lilligren man coming out yeah but lilligren was completely out to lunch he's falling left d like there's 2d on the ice like you just came over the

boards for the 1d that was on the ice you're in the middle you're not playing a side and he held me stuff it wasn't he was even like creeping in aggressively it was really bad so okay yeah are you good with that because i want to get into now sammy mentioned it on his little checklist is coaching yeah sure go ahead yeah this was coming off a simoneoit fight, which I absolutely loved. Loved the hit attempt, the fight, the four-on-four goal. I don't want to get too off-topic on coaching, but Benoit was their best defenseman last night. I was thinking on my drive in,

I was like, I think he might be my favorite non-riot team. Well, Bungus asked where he ranks in the popularity last night. And at least talk, like, I don't know. Like third? Way high. He was their best defenseman last night. So he ends up with a huge hit on Barzell that got the attention of Bo Horvat. You take Bo Horvat off the ice. Like win-win.

Oh, yeah. And you draw the instigator the and you draw a penalty so marner gets the four on four goal which was all but five or seven seconds off the draw nasty shot and then you have a minute and 55 maybe of a full power play. And this is going back to what I've been saying before, is that the entitlement of Austin Matthews to think that he can take all two minutes up. There was a couple of opportunities off of a lame offside on your power play

where they had no momentum and there's about 53 seconds on the clock. Sheldon's going to leave his big boys out there. And now you go run the 50 seconds left. You got Morgan Riley and Marner off of a change with about 10 seconds to go and austin who is the mvp hero during the weekend wants to be the mvp hero on this last rush and turns the puck over like come on like that's pee. Like, that's peewee stuff. That's peewee stuff.

Derek, great drop in. The craziest part about the second power play unit is that it's not bad. It's good. They have good players that can have a proficient second unit. Pull them off the ice with about 50 seconds to go a minute seven is plenty of time it's a long shift in fact the other thing too is austin's tired they're tired they're they're they're dragging their tongues to gain the zone matthews you would never see that

fresh legs coming off a shift that that lame turnover that led to the breakaway. But why are you putting him in a position to fail, Sheldon? And he mentions it. So in the breakdown clip there, he talks about it, and he mentions. If you want to hear the clip. I want to hear the clip. Okay, we'll play that clip then. Clip number seven.

There's a number of breakdowns on the whole, the entire power play in general, you know, so there's, there's other pieces there. It's not, it's not just Lily. It's, it's,

it's recognizing where to put the puck late in the power play. It's recognizing where you're at in your shift and, and all those types of things. You know, I made a decision on that particular power play. It was, it was at about a minute into the power play. I kept our top guys out there.

And then it was our third face off that we had a dirt stoppage a minute into the power play. I kept our top guys out there and then it was our third face-off that we had, a dirt stoppage of play within the first minute. So I thought our guys had some energy to stay out there. All of a sudden, now you don't break out. Now you're getting in real late in your shift because we didn't get in and then we didn't manage it well from there.

As a fresh defenseman coming on the ice, you have a responsibility of a guy coming out of the box to know that. And we didn't manage that well, but certainly there's things there that everybody has to own, including myself. Okay. Give him full credit for that last comment.

It's a great clip. It's a fantastic clip. I was like, we're talking about this. I'm like, kind of dog exactly. And I'd never heard that clip before. And I give him full credit for at least owning it. But he thought he thought they had enough energy to stay on. He thought wrong.

The other lesson there is what was the goal just before the all-star game where he's yelling at them two effing minutes as they get scored on or whatever. Yeah. The two on wasn't even a goal. It was the two on O against the jetsets where Sam Snub makes three amazing saves and then he benches them for... And it's another end-of-shift Matthews turnover.

And he benches them for two power plays. Yeah. Now the second unit. Have we learned our lesson on the long PP1 shifts here? That to me is like you can own up to it as much as you want, Kipper, like you said.

Stop doing it. Yeah you can own up to it as much as you want, Kipper, like you said. Stop doing it. Yeah, like own up to it and be like, hey, I am the head coach of the hockey team. Stop it. No. No. You know, the biggest issue he may have, Sheldon, is that habits are hard to break.

Big time. This is not a – it's not something that just started. This has been going on for years. We have a bunch of relevant things. There's more on the decor and on Lilligren as well and on how often these guys are showing up. Any preference there, Sam, having listened through those um what do we just play you know do you care about you want to play the the lilligren clip it's a good it's a

good snapshot of where he's at we can go off the decor on that well the message is just you know stay with him well he's a good player he's played very well for us um over his time here and even last night into the game there's a number of good things he did for us in the game. So it's just more embrace those things, focus on those things. You know, he's a young guy. I thought he was taking big steps in his game, you know, over the last year. And then coming into this year, there's an expectation all of a sudden. Not just a young guy uh that's kind of

finding his way but for us he's an established nhl player that's looking to take on more and that hasn't gone as well as as he would expect or we would have hoped but doesn't mean that he's still not doing good things capable of good things that's a crazy clip to me that he says that it hasn't gone as well as we would have hoped you You know, he's 175 games into his NHL career. This is year part of four or five here for Lilly. What is he at this point? Hey, they're hoping he's a top four guy. They've been treating him like a top four guy for the last year and a half.

What would you say? He's playing 1903 a night. That's legit top four minutes here. And there's times when he's playing 1903 a night that's that's legit top four minutes here and there's times when he's struggling do we go back to the high ankle sprain here even if he's lost five or ten percent of where he normally would be skating wise that could be enough to point the direction that he's not playing well. Yeah, but Kip, if he's within 5% or 10% and it makes him ineffective or not good, like, what is he at his best?

He's okay? You know what I mean? Like, this is... Lilligren, for me, is on a very good contending team. He's a 4, 5, or 6. Like, he could step in and give you some key minutes, but... Well, that's what he is here. Well, should be 5 or 6.

Yeah. I... On a very good team. We've had this problem, so... Fine. We've had this problem every year with Lilligren through the season. He had some really good stretches of play last year. at the analytics at the start of seasons yes and you're like oh he's eating up his minutes his third pair of minutes he deserves more he's doing great in

these minutes check out his uh course he numbers all his expected goals number it's all really good then he gets a playoffs and you go what is the situation where he goes on the ice because there has to be one is it power play penalty, penalty kill, protecting a lead, chasing a lead? There's not really a place where it's like, that's a Lily moment. And then you get to the playoffs and he watches. He's come out. He's come out. And it's no different right now for me.

He's the same guy where he's not going to play in playoffs looking like this. So, I don't know. Do you do what you did to Sandin? You flip him for a pick for someone who wants him and turn that pick into someone who's a different role for you? I don't know, but... You can't make... You can't weaken your blue line anymore.

Can't trade Lilligren for a pick. I mean, they traded Sandin for a first, and you can use that for... Yeah, and Gustafson. You know, that's probably not going to find a trade that nice. Yeah. But I don't know. I know what you're saying.

You don't have enough legitimate NHL D and he is one. I have definitely, I'm kind of getting sick of doing the same thing every year. Where it's like, I'm supposed to be kind of excited and he has a good start to the year. And this year is different, right? Because he gets a pretty bad injury. High ankles, tough to come back from. I understand that. But it just feels like it's groundhog day that it starts off hot and then we kind of go in the opposite direction so the other thing too is

like he's he's always been prone to a very bad mistake yeah he's he's known to toss him off he had a late giveaway too prior to that lame D to D off the end ball goal, there was a, there was a pretty bad giveaway by him. Yeah. I'm just searching my own name and Lilligren turnovers. I think I wrote an article on this, like in playoffs,

like his, he's had some big moments where you're like, Oh no, like that's the one we can't make against Florida actually. But if there's a, if there is a guy that, if there's a team out there that wants to take a chance on him, and they'll give you back like a serviceable D-man of some kind

that does a different thing, maybe it's not you're not adding or subtracting, you're just kind of equal sign. Just looking for something different. To me, that's what Benoit, he's the only guy that, he does something completely different than everybody else in the D-Corps. And that's why he looks so good. The issue with that is, and we heard it in Sheldon

Keefe's clip, he thinks he's way better than he's shown. And the problem to trade that is that the team that's going to potentially take him, they don't feel the same way. So so you know the balance of of what you think you can get and what the team's actually thinking that they get are like

different different planets it's just sitting here today that neither sandin or lilligran have turned into like a top four second pair really like this guy trust him on the second pair guy has hurt the Leafs a little bit uh do we want to go into leaning on the top guys again I mean did we touch on that with the the lengthy shift here did he say anything that stood out for you just he was just breaking it down and talking about how hard they had to lean on him because of how much Barzal was playing and the other top guys were playing so much. But I just thought it was a bigger conversation just looking at the depth. Okay, so let's have a quick listen to it, please.

Number three. I had to lean on our top guys a lot here tonight, as they were doing on the other side. The guys out of our lineup here tonight, your depth takes a hit, and Barzal's playing a lot here tonight. And when he was out there, was he was uh in control of things um for the most part but especially if there's times i was trying to get a mismatch somewhere else with our guys and if it wasn't matthews against barzell like the ice was tilted in the wrong direction so we ended up having to lean on our guys a lot as a result of some of those

top end guys. Yeah. But he leans on them every night. He does. So it's not just tonight. Our Zell played 23 minutes. 23 minutes. Yeah.

And no other forward played over 20 for the Islanders. Our Zell is. Not even close. Not even close. No, no. Horvat almost had 20 Did he? 19? Yeah you're right 1941

The next highest isn't 17 minutes Your top three forwards Were in the ballpark of 24 25 minutes That's a big swing And then Loved Barzal last night Then you're left with barzal last night then you're left with once again

domey at like nine or ten minutes and yeah 10 48 it's just it can it always looks the same yeah jb yeah little lopsided um no doubt about that what did you think of Ilya Samsonov last night? I think Sheldon's comments kind of run parallel with Samsonov where he was good enough to lose. Yeah. He was just good enough to lose. Goaltending in a nutshell, right? Yeah. I thought he battled hard.

I think he didn't look very good early but battled hard to give them a chance to come out of it with a point or two he on the first goal who was it that shot it barzell passed it to get who shot it somebody hammered it yeah and it looked like the i keep referencing columbus but i'll just say columbus sammy where he goes flying across puck hits the post and like i know he's trying to but he's way out of the net and barzal just gonna tap it right you're like oh boy here we go shoot the puck pardon i can't remember one of the strums holmstrom yeah yeah i thought yeah anyways he hit it hard slammed it by him hits the. But he's way out of position.

You're like, oh, is it going to be a sliding night? Is it going to be a swimming night? And then he kind of gets it back. It just feels like there's portions of both guys in every game I watch of him. Like, he's been better. Go ahead. Yeah. The chances last night, the Islanders, according to SportLogic, they had 12 total chances, only four of which were grade A's.

You know, you give up three on that. That's about maybe what you would expect. But at the end of the day, you know, the Leafs had 26 chances, you know, six grade A's against the Islanders last night. And it just looked to me like you, their goalie just played better. Yeah, you're the second best goalie. You're the second best goalie by miles. I thought Sorokin was unbelievable last night.

The chances the Leafs had in the final couple of minutes and throughout the bulk of the game, really tough to put it past that guy. And the Leafs have a goalie who is fine. He's fine. But it's not that tough compared to the best. The McLean goal and then the game winner. McLean almost Marchanded

his knee again. Remember Marchand heard him with the fake, with that same move? Yeah. I just, sometimes when I see a goalie just ending up on his stomach it just doesn't look like it was the right way to finish he throws him hard right yeah it was i i you know it's a guy who's plays in the nhl making a great breakaway deke but he does bite he's pretty susceptible to that pump fake for sure sure. That first early one. Yeah. But I hate killing goalies on breakaways. They're NHLers on a breakaway.

You're right. You're not going to blame them there. But ozone possession time and all that, the Leafs had controlled every facet of play overall. Good enough to once again go back to him tomorrow night against the Dallas Stars. For me, anyways. Yeah.

What are your thoughts? He didn't lose the opportunity. If we're trying to get him right as an organization, then sure. Go play Dallas now. The problem is, you know,

you've played Seattle, who's a toothless offense, Winnipeg, who was without their offensive players. The Islanders are a toothless offense, and Dallas is not.

This feels like it's like gotten progressively harder as it's going on here. And now we're heading into by far his stiffest test. Dallas is very good. And they've been hot. They've won three in a row. They're plus 32 goal differential.

They're a real team. Second in the Central. Goals four per game. It's Canucks, Colorado, Dallas in the NHL. They're ahead of Edmonton. So the test will stiffen. If the thought was on John Tavares that there's no Leaf player that needed a break longer, I think he showed better.

Oh, yeah. For sure. Last night. He looked really good. And Nyes, too. Both guys, I thought, were all over it, creating stuff. When Nyes is good, the good version of him turns pucks over. He hunts them on the forecheck.

He creates for his line mates. I don't know how much. Yeah, listen, the body going in there and opening up some lames are creating. And he turned one over. He hit Matthews in the slot. I just still don't see enough creativity in his game to really add a layer to the big boys other than getting harder in on a four check. It's just not there guys.

Asking too much of them. If you had like, you've mentioned this from the start and you've been on this from the start, but it's just like, yeah, he's a kid at a college playing on the top line. And I've pushed back against you on that,

but it's just feels like it's pretty overwhelming role that he has to play for this. He's a power forward in the NHL who can probably score 30 in the league at some point, but he's not there yet. I'm... Dialing it back? Well, yeah, I'm kind of dialing it back

on one day being a 30-goal scorer. Like, listen, I scored a lot of goals in junior hockey. Yeah. And, yeah, I suffered a couple of injuries that may have played a part on maybe slowing my game down but like college nhl junior nhl american hockey league nhl man oh man that's that's that may be sometimes a shift for a guy that he never ever hits what was once projected i'm not sure they should have traded him i'm not sure how smart of a goal scorer he is so i totally and i'm not sure they should have traded him i'm not sure how smart of a goal score he is

so i totally and i'm not pushing back on that argument in the slightest bit i there are guys jimmy vc is a good example at a college where you're like oh it's just not there for him there's too much to me with nize's game i like his skating too i really like his skating i like his size i like his shot like I like his ability to find it. I'm not jumping off the bandwagon on this, kid. I see it with you. Yeah. So, like, I agree with you.

I don't think that's going to happen to Nize. But I do think that this season, he's probably best as your second-line guy who you're not expecting for huge offensive contributions from. And then you have a game in the playoffs where he's great and he wins one. And, you know, that's about it. We got a break? Yeah, we got a break. I think he was on the ice

for three of the Leafs overtime winners last year. Yeah, he can do some good things. Anyways, we should break. Okay. Pay for some bills with some commercials here when we return. Mike Fuda, Stanley Cup winning executive with the LA Kings,

will join us. More Leaf talk on this edition of Real Kipper and Born after the break. or wherever you get your podcasts. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. All right, let's bring in a guy that knows something about building a championship team. He did it with the Los Angeles Kings. Executive. Were you executive of the year back then foods um according to my mom yes i was any i was executive of the year in the ontario hockey league never in the national all right but dean lombardi was so my boss was well deserved well

you're still young for sure hey um we're're just talking, of course, about the Toronto Maple Leafs. And, you know, a guy like Matthew Nyes has come out of college, is one of the best players out of the NCAA, lots of talk, lots of hype, and finds himself in pretty good situations playing with the best players on the Toronto Maple Leafs. And yet sometimes, you know, you find yourself a little underwhelmed by him. But, you know, for your eye, being an executive all these years, when do you determine when a player is what you think he might become?

It's way too early to define what this guy's going to end up being. Would you agree with that yeah that's a great point kipper and he was as i said he was probably my best two three live viewings i had ever had in college hockey like he could just tell that the leafs had hit a home run in the second round because they didn't have a lot of picks to play with but my biggest concern with him was sometimes you see a power forward at the college level and you wonder if it's going to translate when the cage comes off because he does play a physical game. And I mean,

I agree with everything that Borny had said too about his, his size and everything about him reeks, you know, pro and the kind of pro that you want. But I think it's just that consistency factor that you have to realize that the college schedule is all he's ever played. And I think even he admitted that he was just exhausted. And I think, you know, internally, when you just can see it on a much more consistent basis. I know the first time we called up Tyler Toffoli, Darryl really grinded him out.

And you could tell he wasn't ready. He went back down. And the next time we called him back up, you knew he wasn't going anywhere. All the little things that was asked to work on were now ironed out of his game now and in niza's situation i don't think he's really been given that time to go down to the minors and work on his game he's just been thrust in with the big boys so i think it's just going to take patience but when you see that same consistency and i think you said it last week kipper if he could uh see that physicality i know we fought once see that a little bit more consistently. I think that's going to round out his game as well.

Fuchs, I think we have a hard time putting words to the idea of like these D-men who make the big mistake, who can be good or whatever, but just have these moments where they make the big glaring error that kills you. And I feel like the Leafs have some of those guys. Jake McCabeabe really good defenseman but he has these moments right even morgan who's the team's best email has these moments lilligran has them when you were with the kings you guys were winning cups did you have some

of that those guys can you win in the playoffs with some guys that are going to have some brain farts really we didn't i guess at times willie mitchell tried to do a little bit too much yeah he'd be the only one but he was so high a level that i was other parts of his game that it didn't hurt but it scares me boring that you just said there's multiples oh sure that's never a that's never a sign of uh good things on a championship blue line and i don't think any of us here think that that's a championship blue line right again i agree so much with what kipper said about you know you'd hope by now you see some of these teams that are churning out their own homegrown defensemen that you're just drooling over like somebody talking about nemish i think is the kid's name in new jersey and and you see

that it's been a factory of homegrown defensemen in los angeles so the fact that the leafs are still kind of at this stage of the game wondering what what Lilligren is, and, you know, they've moved on from Sandin. These are all the guys that we were expecting to, you know, be here about his hometown guys that were top four guys and they, and they haven't really panned out. We're talking to Mike Futa, executive with the LA Kings. One Stanley cups there does a terrific job on sports set in our show. Futes is, is the danger for, for danger for for for scouts or gms is to

uh like sammy mentioned do you move lilligrant for maybe a draft pick we saw sandin go but is the danger that you you move them too early and the name uh forsling in florida who's who's turned into an unbelievable player, but nobody thought of anything at the time when he was playing. Earlier with Chicago, it turns out to be the stud. I mean, how does that feel as a general manager, a scout, when you see a team give up on a player only to see him be great somewhere else? Well, I'll give you another one and it's los angeles

kings uh richard sternak we took in the second round and our guys really struggled um with his development pattern and the one thing that we learned with him was he's smiling all the time and we thought he understood english so he had no clue what we were saying and they just thought that he wasn't prepared to do the work and there was a huge gap in the and one day he woke up and we found out that he'd flown back home because his dad said he was really frustrated and and instead of kind of taking the time it was one of those ones that we were so kind of upset at him leaving without talking to us that we we should have done a hell of a lot more due diligence before we shipped him off and he wasn't a throw into the deal because we always knew he was a good player but uh we he

was a secondary piece and us picking up well somebody could help me out we picked up the big goaltender for a stretch run um who ended up you know quick he'd been hurt and we brought him in and i his name escapes me but we didn't make the playoffs and richard sternak's got two more stanley cups so you get to answer the question here you got to be really careful about what you give up and his name escapes me, but we didn't make the playoffs, and Richard Cernak's got two more Stanley Cups. So to answer the question, you've got to be really careful about what you give up. And the other thing is, as scouts, you always love your own guys. Nobody leaves the draft thinking you did a crappy job. It's like you fall in love with your own players, which is dangerous. The key is trying to find other teams to fall in love with them.

And if you've got guys, you're on a whatever 500 or 600 team and you've got guys that you can't fit into your own lineup and you're struggling it's hard to convince other guys that they're going to be the answer for their team so i think in particular when we talk about the toronto maple leafs um they stuck to their guns and never moved matthew nyes well how many other guys in their farm system just are gonna get teams excited to fill the holes that this team has? And that's something I don't know, but I'm not hearing a lot of, you know, the kid or the world juniors there that everybody was talking about

at the beginning of the year didn't do himself any favors, the world juniors, although I certainly wouldn't give up on them. But if you're going to give up something to get something, you really, you've got to be sure. You've got to really be sure. And we definitely, Kipper, we talked earlier about the defensemen in Los Angeles. You've got to be really you've got to really be sure and we did we definitely kept we talked earlier about the defenseman in los angeles you got to be really sure what you move on from so you would have spent time interacting with brad tree living um as a manager yourself what do you expect his activity level to look like uh about one month away from the trade deadline here. Exceptionally active.

Brad's a good friend. I mean, he's a tireless worker. He doesn't always call back. I know that he calls everybody else back. I just think he does what's right for his team. You saw he had a tough situation there in Calgary where he had to move on from Goudreau for nothing, which is dangerous and a lesson to be learned, even with the current Calgary staff that we talked about.

And then obviously what he had to try and make the best out of what he was getting back for Tuchuk. Now you see what he's brought in in Toronto. They haven't all panned out to the way he'd hoped. I mean, it's strange sometimes you move on from a guy like Michael Bunting who did have good chemistry with that top line and is that a decent number and now you're trying to find somebody with that kind of experience to fill that hole with the new guys which they seem to considerably moving but I would expect Brad I would expect Brad to be on the phone constantly I don't know if there's assets for him to make a

huge move I guess Samsonov I know he's been playing a little bit better, so that might alleviate some goaltending concerns if he can get some consistency and Wall gets back. But they're going to have to add something to that blue line. And I don't know if they have the bullets to do it. Maybe it's just a guy like – and there's some teams, there's guys out there that aren't – there's big, shiny thing, but maybe – you know, I didn't mind Lubushkin and his stay with the leafs as a kind of last

pairing guy with a little bit of grit he's probably going to be available from anaheim um but there's there's got to be some movement out there whether i can't see calgary being easy for him to deal with i don't think they want to get washed in the deal with their ex-boss and i'm sure their own calgary's probably doubling the prices on a guy like a tannev but brad will do his due diligence and i think i'd be willing to give a little bit more for a defenseman like Tanev, not only because of the fit, but because of being local

and the fact that it'd be a pretty easy signing for him to finish his career as a Toronto Maple Leafs. So he's not just a rental. Your big goalie that you couldn't remember, Ben Bishop. Thank you very much. That's how memorable it was. We didn't make the playoffs. And Benny was great and it wasn't his fault.

But, I mean, we gave up, I believe it was a first or second round pick in Richard Cernak, and we didn't make the playoffs. So that's when you better be looking up at a couple of banners already, or you're going to be looking at an unemployment line when you pull a deal like that. Fortunately, we had had some success, and that was a year we should have just backed away from the card table because we did have a couple cups, but once you're on that roll, you just don't want to give up the push. Foots, the majority of the teams that I know

probably already had their professional scouting meetings, right, where they all have gotten together, but what's it like coming out of an all-star break to the trade deadline in terms of the pressure on certain guys now? It's a grind. Like, it's an absolute grind, and there's so many teams still in it. And you look at some teams that just didn't expect to be where they're at. And, I mean, I think of a team obviously like the Kings,

who I know must be just killing Blakey to have to move on from Todd McClellan with the start that they had because not only of their professional relationship but their friendship there's pressure there and I mean you're gonna have to give up and Blakey likes to do his work early as I see quietly these teams that have done it like you see Vancouver get some nice business done early and then quietly Monaghan gets done early so these teams are going to have these guys not for only after but they're going to have them for an extra month and these other guys so you might have to give up a little more to get something done quickly so it'll be fun to watch but i mean i look at a team like pittsburgh with genzel right like that's going to

be imagine telling sydney crosby the season he's having that they're moving his left winger so it'll be a grind that's for sure but a lot of guys want to get their work done early which usually results in having to overpay a little bit one more uh quickly because we're running out of time here foods but just uh you mentioned the the coaching change in los angeles if if the leafs continue to to watch games where they're they're blowing points is is an option a coaching change here in toronto as well to jolt the team if if a big trade or or any type of roster movement isn't available i think it's always on the table i mean not just in toronto but definitely in toronto and that's not i'm a i know sheldon very well and i

know you mean he's a guy nobody is going to outwork him but if the team consistently like that game last night, I mean, it was great to come in and win with Justin Bieber coaching your team and stuff like that, but I mean, that's a huge, there's a big difference when you've got the Islanders who've been floundering a little bit, the difference between being six points away from you and four points away from you with a little bit of momentum is huge.

So you can't have these nights where you're saying, you know, we relied on our top guys, but we weren't really, everybody's got to get on board.'re here you're here in the same press conferences with uh not excuses but talking about the same problems have been there for a few years and i mean unfortunately again in los angeles there was a move made uh the only thing i'd say is you've got a i'm not a big fan of the assistant coach moving up in any position i think when i worked for barub, but it doesn't always, especially when there's a completely different voice. So it will be interesting.

In this case, that would be just like sliding like a boucher over. If there's a change, I'd like to see it be a prominent guy, whether it's a Joel Canville or – and hopefully we're not even talking about it, but it's somebody you know is going to make a difference. I always thought, and I mentioned this to you, Kipper, and I'm sure we're running out of time, but I thought in L.A. there might be a Patrick Waugh might be an answer there because of the relationship he had with Blakey.

That would have been interesting. Well, the French connection there, that would have been interesting because Luke had played with him and Burge knows him as well. But you've got to make sure you've got something you're comfortable with, especially with the Leafs, with the pressure there is to win now. You better be sure what you're bringing in is going to make a difference. And we talked about that at the goaltending position, but even more important, a change just to make a change

would make no sense with this Leaf roster. They better be damn sure they're getting somebody. And that's why a Joel Campbell, to me, when you're talking about it, because now you're talking about a guy that's got multiple rings, been there, done that. That'd be a big one for sure. Hey, Foots, great stuff, man. Really appreciate your time as always, man.

Thanks, Foots. Thanks, my friends. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Sammy. Wow. Hey, Foots. Stat I put in the lineup today, does this matter to you, that the Leafs are 11-10-2 at Scotiabank Arena?

I mean, it matters to me. It's a badabank Arena I mean it matters it's a bad stat it's not good it's a bad stat it's just oh no it's true it's not bad I promise it actually is real just uh someone sent me a stat on Matthew Nyes shot or less in nine straight games five shots zero shots in 14 games played one or less in 34 of 46 not good wow that's bad how are you gonna score if you don't shoot the puck how do you i mean you need to have it listen we could do this for everyone who's played in that top six yeah tyler bertuzzi i mean look at at his output playing aside elite players too. It's been really good. No good. For everyone in those spots. They don't have an answer.

I was like, could they get Bunting back? I think. I'm good. Hyman? Maybe just something simple for Sheldon is if Bieber lends him his jacket next game. Oh, my God. Sheldon and Bieber's jacket would be hilarious. I would love to see that.

Did you ever like that jacket? I never asked you yesterday. I feel like you could pull that one off. I thought he absolutely looked ridiculous. I think that was the point. I'm going to go ahead and say this. Love the jacket. You know, there's no scenario where I can wear it.

There's not a scenario. Does it not come in boys' medium for him? I think. Like, what's with the triple X large? Do we know the cost of that jacket? No, he said who it was made by. Emily Kaplan interviewed him on the bench. There's no chance.

I forget. Less than a $5,000 coat. I was going to say upwards. Yeah. Like, probably in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. I mean, not worth that. No, but some designer would have charged that. If I can quickly check. Either way, love the coach.

If you're Justin Bieber, the only scenario that works perfectly is coaching an NHL All-Star game. Love it. You're never going to drown if you get pushed overboard. I just got $4,600 in my ear from Brandeo. Maybe he must have looked it up. That's impressive. That's pretty close.

Well, I just Googled Beaver's jacket, and the first story that came up was GQ. Justin Beaver's gigantic coat was the talk of the All-Star game. How did he get it through the tunnel? That's what I want to know. You wore it on the plane the way here? Wow. We have a lot of things to talk about, Stell.

We do, including eight games on tap tonight, five Canadian teams. Let's go. Including the Oilers and Vegas. My night. Let's go. Sammy's night. All right.

Louis DeBrusque, hockey analyst with Sportsnet Hockey Night in Canada and Edmonton Oiler on their regional games will join us next. Our thanks to Mike Futa. Plenty more on the Real Kipper and Bourne show. Do not go away.