Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Play Down Let-Down

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne start with the Leafs' 6-5 overtime loss to the Blue Jackets and the team once again playing down to their opponent. They are joined by Gord Stellick (6:46) to break it down, why the Leafs' start was so flat, whether the lack of regulation points to effort lapses or team resilience and the decision to leave Samsonov in after 5 goals. Then, he shares his thoughts on the Leafs' goalie situation and how they should employ Martin Jones in Woll's absence. Later, they are joined by Penguins analyst Phil Bourque (32:19) to tee up the Pens matchup vs. the Leafs on Saturday, the vibes in Pittsburgh, what's changed for Malkin and how to turn around the Karlsson experiment.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. 

live and in color it's a real kipper and born show we are live on sports at 590 sports at 360 and sports that plus from four to six as always off. Off the rails Friday. Just you and me. Is this what it feels like to be an empty nester? Is this you and your wife at home right now with all the kids gone? We don't have McKee today. In for producer Sammy McKee, Mark Boffo. Terrific guy.

Shout out, Boffs. Listens. Very objective. The Shadow Boffs. Listens. Very objective. The lineup's so good. So good on a Friday. If you put this beside Sammy's lineup, I mean, Sammy would have to answer some questions. Derek Brandeo and Jen Rollick. I'm thrilled.

As always on the program. Now, if someone texts us 590-590, who gets it? gets it it's the old like tree falling in a forest if no one ever sees it does it brandeis says he'll see it it floats it just floats it's just gone it's in the cloud no your phone's talking oh i'm getting talked to we gotta have kangaroo court we uh we will take your tax even though bofskin actually jb and i don't have a clue how it'll work uh derek says that uh he'll pass on his uh whatever you write to us so on this friday please feel free in the next two hours but as jb alluded to we have a terrific show gordon stelic in about 10 minutes will explain what the heck we saw last night at Scotiabank Arena.

Do you have any answers? A number of games we watched last night. Yeah. So what was that? What was that Leafs game, Kip? They do that on purpose because they knew we were coming back to do a regional game, me and you. They did, yeah. And they just said, let's keep the boys guessing.

I mean, we saw two periods of the worst hockey the Leafs have played, I don't know, since you and I have had a show, followed up by a five-goal period. Leafs rally from a 5-0 deficit in the third period come oh-so-close only to lose 6-5 in overtime to the Columbus Blue Jackets. The three of us yesterday talked about a team on occasion

playing down to their opponents. We did forecast this. And like clockwork, like a German train right on schedule. We should talk about, you know, the fact that we made some excuses for them and not made excuses. We presented very fair reasons why they may have looked off. Third game in four nights, coming off some travel to New York for back-to-back tough games there. Flew running through the team, missing a couple of guys.

Couple of injuries on the back end. You know, you could see why they might feel imperfect. But that was for television. Now we have time to be more. We got a ton of ideas on what we saw. But let's go to sheldon keith for our first kippers clipper on basically what he saw last night we asked him to work in the third period not go away give our fans something something to feel good about in the third period

and wanted ourselves to be proud of what we put forth in the third period and wanted ourselves to be proud of what we put forth in the third period just talked you know we did talk about coming back in the game right like that we just talked about competing we talked about stopping the bleeding defensively and working and working our way back are you surprised that he wasn't more critical? You think it was completely warranted to just... He's not shrugging it off, but he's not really focusing on how ugly that first 40 minutes was. Yeah.

You know, you and I have also talked about the idea that you only have so many bullets, and you have to know when to fire them, you know, when your team should give you more. Obviously, Columbus a bad team, but do you think it's possible that that was a product of all the excuses I gave off the top of the show, that he was like, this is just not the time to ask for more.

They don't have it tonight? For me, it was abundantly clear. And yeah, those intercepted passes, right right and it was led by at the start with max domes trying to get back to mccabe only to have it intercepted by johnson to patrick liney boom yeah in the net and outside of those really bad mistakes and again morgan riley ringing the puck around the boards. Gregor six zones ahead. Nowhere to be found. Yeah. Like, they

weren't moving. Yeah. It was like they were in quicksand, so they had a scheduled practice today that got canceled for good reason. Yeah. Like, why are you dragging them back to the rink when their tongues were hanging out for the first 40 minutes? I haven't even checked ice times from last night, reason yeah like why are you dragging them back to the rink when they're they're their tongues

were hanging out for the first 40 minutes i haven't even checked ice times from last night but we saw that mitch marner played 10 minutes of the third period last night yeah which you know a game like that uh columbus on a thursday you're down five going into the period, you think he's going to play two minutes. It's a lot. I'm not sure I'd make a good coach because, and you've pointed this out because you've worked with Sheldon Keefe, and there would have been a part of me last night that would have said that I'm not, I don't know, does this make me a bad coach or a bad person to sit there and say, for the greater good moving forward, I'm not going to play Mitch Marner 10 minutes

to try to save a point or two. I just, I'm not doing it. You know, if you look at other sports now like look at the nba they sit out their best players for whole games on purpose so i don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that if your game is out of reach even though it wasn't but presumably out of reach at five nothing i don't think it's unreasonable to say you know we're just gonna not play mitch in the third you know we're gonna let these guys sit this one out so i see your point okay let's welcome into gourd stallick and we'll pick up that uh conversation with gourd former general manager of the toronto maple leafs does a terrific job for us always on the fan gourd thanks for thanks for joining us and uh i think

you're probably as as much perplexed as we are a little bit in terms of the same song and dance on opponents that are 25th or lower in the league and the points that the Leafs have given up over the last few years. It's mind boggling. So first of all, you know, I think maybe if you had season tickets, this was the one game you gave away to somebody. And maybe that's why there were so many fans there in the third period, because I thought after five, nothing. I was a little surprised, you know. But Kippy and Justin, remember the playoffs in the bubble? And they came back too little too late against Columbus. And Columbus won

that game and here we are how many years later and we're riding that same kind of roller coaster far too often so you know I do and you know Justin your point about there's only so many bullets that uh it's 182nd of the season so Sheldon Keefe you know really has to pick and choose when he's going to go negative after a game but yeah this this roller coaster ride it was fun in the third period it generally doesn't work in the playoffs no it's not a great long-term plan but you know it is fascinating and i talked to some leafs fans who are pretty impressed with the resilience of the team like and let's be honest that's a great rollover, third period, for a lot of

teams to just say, ah, it's not there tonight. This team has been trailing after the first period 12 times this year and have lost in regulation twice in those games. 10 times they fought their way back out of 12. So is there a piece of you that goes, it's kind of a good

thing that they're, you know, hold on, I don't want to hear from you. That they're able to battle back in these games. Is your glass as half full as Justin's? No, Kippy, come on, half full. Half full's right. I mean, to come back, seriously,

from 5-0 and tie at 5-5, arguably against the worst team in the NHL. So I give them some props. And again, to put the week in context, Joe Wall gets injured. He's your best goaltender. Martin Jones comes in, does a great job of wrapping up the game in a tough game against Ottawa. They get the shutout on Saturday.

Good trips to the island and against the New York Rangers. Great appearance of Samsonov on Saturday. Martin Jones filling the bill. So I think if you put it in context, the one game compared to the week and the expectations, the worries after Joe Wall got injured, then you've got to keep perspective there. But let's see Saturday. Kyle Dubas comes in.

What's your bounce back? What's your message? Home ice after that kind of effort. Are you going to come out strong for against Pittsburgh? You know, we can't do this every single game. But as a coming back in the third period, I'm with Justin scoring five goals when you're down five nothing. And, you know, it did look like Friday night industrial hockey that I mean, that Columbus team was almost like the Los Angeles Chargers last night in the NFL game on Thursday night. The way they played in the third period.

But I was impressed by the ability to have that kind of offensive firepower. I get what you're saying, that you can't just expect to keep getting points like that, but it's as if they say to themselves that we can. I'm with you. No team should ever sleep on this offense. But it's almost as if they believe it themselves. So they aren't too worried about maybe tightening up because they know they've got this explosive. We'll turn it on if we need it later.

Save the nitrous button. Take a look at our record, right? Look at the way we can score in late minutes. And it's a great feeling, Gord, to tell yourself that we're still in any games trailing. But maybe

the fact that you have this attitude that you're so good at it that you're not really that scared to take a chance when you need to tighten up. Well, it could be just this same team. And we're talking how many months ago, not a year ago, the final seven playoff games, they didn't score more than two goals.

So you weren't able to dig down in that well. And against the Florida Panthers, it's a reason that you lost a series that a lot of people thought you should have won. And it's the same story every year, a disappointment. This time, I'll be in the second round rather than the first round. So I do agree in the big picture. In the small picture, it was a hell of a third period,

hell of an overtime, entertaining game. But yes, if that is the mindset that we can play that way for 40 minutes. And the funniest thing, it goes every level of hockey, even kids hockey, NHL hockey, and that line about sometimes teams aren't skating. It's baffling, but it happens all the time. You just look and you go, we're not skating tonight, particularly that Leaf team that has that kind of speed and whatever. Like, why does that happen?

If it happens too much, if it happens in the playoffs, you're going to have another disappointment. But, yeah, you've got, Kippy, I am keeping the perspective that you can't go, you've got to keep in mind you couldn't get those goals when you really needed them. I can't say it is a mindset they have all the time. It is

a dangerous mindset, but it certainly did show at uncertain times they've got that ability. Against Columbus. Yeah, and when you're not skating, you know, I think we talked about turnovers, Gord. The not skating thing was really what led to a lot of it. You know, there's a lot of disconnect and there's no one to pass to

because there's no short support. So it looked a little ugly and at times a lot of pressure on their goaltender as a result. Samsonov gives up five and they leave him in. And that was, you know, something we had talked about on the broadcast as sort of a point of contention. What are your thoughts?

Do you want to listen to the audio with Gord here or do you want to? Yeah, let's do it. Gord has nothing better to do. Just listen to what Sheldon Keefe has to say. I got nowhere to go. I'm like an officer of a gentleman. I got nowhere to go. I'm Richard Gere.

I got nowhere to go. It's clip two on being tempted to pull Sammy. Yeah, very. In the moment, in the second period when we talked, I thought, you know, I'm going to just get through the second and talk about it, which we did. Curtis felt strongly that Sammy should stay in and fight and battle with the team.

And obviously I'm glad that that was his advice and I'm glad that's the decision that we made because I like the fact that Sammy was a part of that comeback and I like the fact that he made some saves for us early in that third two. Gord? Okay, well, hold on. Last night we did the game, Gord. I know, I know.

Justin was real strong on keeping him in and i was real strong on getting him the heck out so be the tiebreaker here well i know i agree with you kippy i was stunned to see him and uh you know and also i wasn't really wild about that overtime goal to tell you the truth so uh you know i know three on three it's but still i wasn't crazy about it but uh i uh i don't know Curtis Sanford obviously knows more about the goaltender or whatever the psyche and and it turned out to be although I don't think goaltending matter for the Leafs in the third period but whatever I think I think they were trying to send a message that it's on the team not on the goaltender about the way

they played it and uh but yeah I was surprised but hey wouldn't you know what uh it it worked out but boy columbus thank god for columbus man i don't know what if they lost that game man it can't be a pleasant feeling right now anyway period but if they lost that game that would have been incredibly ugly but uh yeah i um yeah i was surprised but it was one of those games where it hey it's like again it's, so I don't want to dump on it because people, that third period, I'm getting text like crazy. You know, both about the excellent broadcast and the excellent panel, but also about the third period. I mean, people were jacked.

Kip, I do want to get your thoughts because, like, there's the idea where, you know, your parent catches you smoking a cigarette and they make you smoke the whole pack. is this was this the leaf really is this the leafs making sammy smoke the whole pack like yeah you know two two periods that were so ugly they're like you finish it there pal okay before we go the cigarette analogy before the yeah we go into the smoking the whole cigarettes here but let me just ask you and I'll tell you what stood out with me with his comment is that, and I know there's been goalie coaches now for 20, 25 years, and that's not necessarily something new.

But my era, man, it was just the head coach making the decision for for sheldon now to kind of tell us that curtis sanford made the call on him staying in that to me is like i don't know man you're the head i i don't want to hear that and i don't want to hear we, we decided. You're the head coach, man. You're the general back there. That has to be you. On you, everything. You can take as much advice as you want, but I'm making the call. And I didn't get that last, I didn't get that from Sheldon. I, you know, I agree in this.

Like, he's trying to show he uses resources, but he's been around this town, and we got a fan base that has a baseball team that apparently nobody made the decision to pull the pitcher. Okay? You know, and you saw how that played out, the absurdity of the Toronto Jays and the, you know, not nobody apparently taking charge about pulling a pitcher that never should have been pulled. So, yeah, it's a little thing, but I agree with you, Kippy. I'm in charge. OK, I may use someone as a resource, but ultimately I'm going to make the decision about the goaltending change. I just never heard of a parent making you smoke all the cigarettes if you're caught with one.

Well, so like I've heard of parents say, don't go out in the cold and smoke. You can smoke the cigarette at the dining room table or something like that. But to make poor Justin smoke 19 more cigarettes. It was a tough day. Hold on, Gordon. We've got child services on line three for Justin Bourne. So here's the thing, though, because I think there is. I don't want to call it a generational divide, but a difference in a coach's role.

Now, I think that the term in baseball of manager, you're managing all these different elements, but there's a pitching coach who makes them pitching, coaching decisions, right? In game about when a guy should come in and out having worked with Sheldon.

I know that there's a PK guy and Dean should know to be running that and a PP guy and Guy Boucher would be doing that. The sleep guy is going to tell him, should we stay overnight in this city or not the goalie coach is going to tell him who should i start tonight what do you he so there's some managing and delegating and in that role and it's interesting to see if if you know what the different perspective is and if that's the right thing or if yeah make the call you got to be the guy at the end of the day are you responsible for the too many men? Or is it the players?

Is it, you know? Sets up for a lot of finger pointing, if you ask me. Well, here, Kippy. But if you don't empower those people. Yeah, well, the sleep guy was trying to wake up the fans after 40 minutes. So anyway, so he was busy last night. But the other part, pointing fingers, you're 100% right. Every sport, what do they do they do okay i still think you're

right the person has to be in charge make the decisions but the offensive or defensive coordinator is a convenient scapegoat the pitch pitching or hitting coach is a convenient scapegoat and some assistant coaches along the way so it's no longer to your point whether it's a generational divide all for one one for all i'm going to cover my ass, okay? And I'm going to throw Kippy out as my PK coach because the PK is going wrong if it buys me a couple more months. But that's something that's changed. But at the end, you should always present that the decisions are yours, I believe. I have seen Sheldon, like the power play is going wrong for five straight games,

and he goes, you're not running the meeting today. It's not working. I'll do the power play meeting, you know, whatever it is. And so there's you're not running the meeting today. I'm just not working. I'll do the power play meeting, you know, whatever it is. And so there's a point where the goaltender where I'm sure he'd say, okay, you're not getting it right.

I'm going to make the call. We're talking to Gord Stelic, Toronto, Maple Leaf analyst for sports at five 90, the fan, former general manager. I'm not done on this conversation because you're telling me that they showed Samson novel,

some tough love, stay in there, hang in there, yet after the game, they don't make him available to the media. Okay? So, like, you want to tell him, be a big boy here. Fight it out with the teammates.

Fight it out yourself, but we're not letting you talk to the media because we're sensitive that you're sensitive here. So that to me, like... Maybe they have a performance coach who they've empowered to say he doesn't need that. Come on, make him available. Let him stand up there and man up.

You can't have your most sensitive guy be your goalie, eh, Gord? Yeah, and people will always say, oh, you media guys, you're clamoring because you're media. But that, no. I've been on the other side as well, and part of the job is that you have to talk. As a matter of fact, apparently the NHL is now trying to promote that even more because it's kind of falling behind some other leagues in that regard.

And we know the quality players that are involved, the coaches, the kind of people. But you make it a story. Like when Conor Bedard didn't face the media after the Toronto game, it becomes a story. And the same thing here. It's easy. You don't have to say anything. You give your usual sound clips, sound bites.

It's part of the game. But by ducking it now, you're giving some intrigue. And we've known, we've seen the worst of social media with the Chicago situation and others. So why would you feed that? Just feed the easy beast. Give us the sound bites that, you know, you play on your show and everything, all that easy peasy.

But then when you duck something, people start now thinking things through and espousing things out there. And it's unnecessary. So as far as the progression here into Saturday, i'll go to you jb first and then we'll we'll hear from gourd but is did that decision lead to samson off saturday night against sydney crosby uh you know i would do it i would play samson i think i was saying last night he's played 12 or 13 games this season.

You know, he had a pretty good third period for him to hang around. You know, the idea is that you're letting this guy play his way out of trouble. You don't benefit by playing Martin Jones. And what if Jones is good? What if he plays really well? You really complicate things for yourself.

So yeah, I'd go back to Sammy. I don't know about you, Gord. Well, wait, wait. You can't be afraid. What if Martin Jones is good? That's good. What if my mom's good at goal? You're a playoff guy. You're trying to solve playoff problems.

Well, it's a depth. Getting Martin Jones, getting him through waivers, great move because they've added goal-tending depth and that seems to be the... There's only one Vasilevsky. There's depth in Las Vegas, depth in Colorado. I thought maybe they played him the full game because they want to start Martin Jones tomorrow.

So I don't know which one it is. I don't have a problem either way, but I don't have a problem if Martin Jones is the starter tomorrow night. I have a problem if they come out the way they did the first 40 minutes against Columbus because if you're talking about winning the Stanley Cup or being a Stanleyley cup contender that's not a habit you can do once again don't know let's go right to keith on that very thing okay let's go to yeah clip three on why they can't play like that from the start we had our game at different times we We just lost our way. Like I said,

we had the puck on our stick three times, maybe four times before the first goal and we failed to make a play on it. And then that sort of became the issue the rest of the period. It couldn't break out. It couldn't get out of its own. It's a real hard game to play if you can't get your feet moving

or can't make a play come out of your end. And like I said, now you're giving them the puck and they have great skill. That's a young team that moves the puck extremely well. Lots of speed and confidence with the puck. Yeah, there's tons to clean

up here. Sorry guys, I just can't get this Samsonov thing out of my head right now. so let me just ask you guys now he had a bad training camp then it became give him a couple of weeks now a couple of weeks has become christmas how far do you go here uh like right to the trade deadline to get his game going is there a chance now? Is there more of a chance now that he just doesn't rebound back this season than the first two weeks of let's wait and see? You know, at last check, he's 61st in the NHL in save percentage.

Are you implying that maybe Martin Jones could be ahead of him on their depth chart come playoffs? Here's the problem. If Samsonov does not find his game and you want to go with Joseph Wall and we all assume Joseph Wall's coming back and we all assume that, hey, he should be able to kind of pick up

where he left off and be great. But what happens if he gets hurt again? What are you left with? You have to be sure of the second guy is capable. And to your point, if you're going to spend all this energy and time to keep going back to Samsonov and it doesn't come back, you're not doing Martin Jones any favors helping him get ready just in case he's needed.

Well, I think that's what I'm saying. I have no problem. Martin, they took Samson off to arbitration, okay? That shows it's not like here's the contract. We want you three years at $4 million a year. No, we're not sure about you. We really like Joe Wall, the way he finished up. We like the way you started, but not the way you finished at the end.

So you're, I say dime a dozen, but basically you're in that category that we can look to replace the Samsonov in the offseason, just like a Peter Morazic or a Matt Murray or, you know, whatever, Jack Campbell, whatever they've had before. So I, again, Kippy, last year, we always use the one example. It's an inexact science. Who knows? But Sergei Bobrovsky was a healthy non-starter when the playoffs started

because that's how he'd been playing. And then all of a sudden he got hot at the right time. The Leafs just need that one goaltender to do what Eddie Belfort and Cujo did all those years ago in the playoffs and come up with a, not necessarily steal the playoffs for you, but be strong in the playoffs. And if come up with a not necessarily steal the playoffs for you but be strong in the playoffs and if it's martin jones great if samsonov gets it together that's great i i i always think when you go down that road and you're not getting it it's a slippery slope and you don't bounce back but you never know and best case scenario joe wall's healthy and he's kicking

ass yeah you know the the one thing i do think is that samsonov has been good he's youngish whatever like you just i worry about spending an asset because now you're talking about i think maybe need to get someone right but you need so many holes patched you know do you want to spend your money to patch that hole when maybe it might fill itself in but but when does that become a real huge concern do you think he's still got another month to straighten everything out are you comfortable giving him another month to find his game some of those goals last night were bad yeah like the one that went through his shoulder? Cannot. And the sliding, the overplaying, the inability to really control your movements from post to post. That's a huge concern, guys.

He looks like Kippy at Studio 54 in his day in New York there, all that movement in the crease. That's what I think. Kippy, who are you going to get, though? Okay? You're going to give a first-round pick like Edmonton did for Dwayne Rolison. You're going to get the NHL virgin, a rent-a-goalie. Okay, that's what Tampa Bay looked at when Vasilevsky was injured. I mean, the elite goaltenders don't move in season generally,

and that's so you want another body? You want a David Riddick like they did a couple of years ago? Just for depth reasons, you're not going to get the guy that's going to take you through the playoff run in season. It's got to be one of those three, Joe Wall, Samsonoff, or Martin Jones. Yeah. All right. Well, we solved nothing there. Zero, Gord.

Zero. And speaking of Studio 54, I'm watching you on the zoom call you got a real party purple shirt on right now it's kind it's kind of yeah it's my uh it's sort of my tommy bahama magnum pi when he's retired in the seniors home kind of shirt that i'm uh wearing espousing today but then yeah um yeah i'm gonna watch hockey and curling later on. And, Kippy, great column in the Toronto Star. That was a great column about the media and just what we talk about, what the challenges organizations have nowadays and how they have to manage it and handle it

and have the goaltender come out and talk and address things in Chicago when that's going south. And Jordan Cairo's got to be careful what he says when he makes a remark about Craig Berube. If he said what he said last night, he would have been fine. So anyway, I thought it put a lot of context, and those are big challenges for players and organizations nowadays, that reality.

Just trying to follow in your footsteps as a brilliant writer and an author. And, you know, your book's out now. Looking forward to it. Great Christmas present. Revival. Buy it. Buy it. That's our pitch.

Buy it. Buy Revival. And we got Doug McClain in the second hour on this Off the Rails Friday. So he's going to tell us how he's like a world-renowned author as well, Gord. Please come back on the show and save us. Well, I got Kipper's book. I've got Justin's book. And, you know, there's something very satisfying about a book nowadays.

So, yeah, as we know, we always appreciate the support because it's a labor of love. That's for sure. Always terrific stuff when we come to you, Gord. We really appreciate your time, pal. See you guys. Have a great weekend.

Take care. Thanks, Gordo. Talk soon. Former general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs, Gord Selleck. Hey, what'd you make of Ryan Reeves' injury? What happened there?

Well, he... Not good. I felt his pain yeah not only the physical one that he absorbed when he hit the boards but just you know hitting a rut and just pulling the full bambi sometimes on ice that's how i tore my mcl i was actually in hershey um just caught a rut and got hit at the same time with my skate in a rut. And see you later. You know, I'm not pointing any fingers at any maintenance people because I've gotten in trouble on a few occasions already.

Yeah. No. And the temperature's great in here, by the way. But, like, I told you last night, I'm watching the puck blow up on a few sticks. Playing in travel. And I'm like, I don't know how good the ice was last night i'm watching the puck blow up on a few sticks playing and i'm like i don't know how i don't know how well how good the ice was last night yeah we're guessing from a distance but it's either a whole bunch of people mishandling pucks at the same time or yeah well i hope he's okay it didn't look very good but uh let's hope going off the ice did you see that i know this

is a weird one and let me i don't mean to like Zapruder the camera, but the camera just cut away when he was actually going down about six feet off the ice. Like,

and I think it looks, it looked to me like something gave out. I'll say it. He went down. He went down, but I,

something gave an ankle, a knee, a kneecap. Yeah. Something. If went down, but something gave. An ankle, a knee, a kneecap. Yeah. Something. If you don't have a ligament that can, you know, total speculation. We're just like, he fell. I don't know.

Maybe he just randomly fell. But whatever it was, he didn't need to fall. That is not well-timed. Once again, well wishes for Ryan Reeves. And hope we get some good news on his injury from last night. Yeah, tough when you're looking for momentum to have to sit out a long time. Okay, we're going to take a quick break here

and when we return, Phil Bork will join us as we tee up Toronto Maple Leafs and the Pittsburgh Penguins hockey night in Canada. Radio analyst for the Penguins and two-time Stanley Cup champion, Phil Bork next on Real Kipper and Born.

Fresh views on everything in the National Football League. It's the Fan Checkdown with Matt Marchese and Donovan Bennett. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, to help us tee up the Toronto Maple Leafs versus the Pittsburgh Penguins Saturday night, hockey night in Canada. Never gets old talking about Sidney Crosby on a Saturday night. Let's welcome in Phil Bork.

Does a terrific job covering the Pittsburgh Penguins. Borky, what's going on, buddy? How are you? Hipper, I'm doing well. Jason, Justin, I should say. Good to talk to you guys. And, yeah, things are well. Win a couple games, all is well.

I'll tell you one thing, though. The one thing about this game, guys, winning is so much more fun than losing. I'll tell you what, just the mood around the team you know what i'm talking about uh even around the offices when you're home and uh at ppg paints arena the mood around penguinville is so drastically different when you've won a couple games borky before we get into specifics on the team and what we'll see saturday night here um just talk a little bit about where the fan base or the pittsburgh penguins in general and maybe even we go back before uh the kyle dubas era and the bringing of carlson but you know here's a team closing in on 20 years

with sydney crosby They missed the playoffs last year. Gino went through this window, Malkin, of course, of will he stay? Will he go? Do you want him back? Do you not want him back? Is it over? Is it not over? And just where expectations were. We thought we were kind of seeing a little bit of an end of an era.

And then the Kyle Dubas thing happens then carlson happens and yet we look at the metro and their second last in in the division so um where are fans here with the pittsburgh penguins uh don't forget about the uh the cell the team to the fenway group kind of throw that in there too. Sure. I say something on the radio and people go, what do you mean by that? And I kind of say it tongue in cheek.

I said, we are the penguinies. What does that mean? That we don't do anything the easy way. I mean, going all the way to 30 years ago when I played, you know, Mario went through all his injuries and it was never easy.

It's just the way we do things here for whatever reason the names have changed but uh the way we go about our business has not nothing comes easy to us and here we go again uh so to answer your question the fan base is really on the fence with this team i think as giddy with excitement because what was they were hoping to happen here, but it's been a little bit of frustration, to be honest with you, because of the inconsistencies of not only the special teams, but the star players, not getting enough scoring from your depth guys. The one thing that's been the constant, though, that has been a breath of fresh air and a pleasant surprise

is the consistency of the goaltending, because that's been a breath of fresh air and a pleasant surprise is the consistency of the goaltending because that's been a point of controversy and nobody really knew how good Alex Nedeljkovic could be and he's been rock solid it's been a nice one-two if you will with Tristan Jari and I think they have quietly pushed each other to be better goaltenders so that has been a strong point for the Penguins. But the short answer is that there's a little bit of frustration from the fan base because they expected this team, the way it's been orchestrated and designed by Kyle, that they should be better than they are right now.

And, you know, part of that is very similar to how Dubas had the Leafs kind of structured where you have a number of big name stars who are expected to sort of drag the team into it I uh I did the game against Montreal the other night and like Sidney Crosby still Sidney Crosby my god Jake Gensel's brilliant like the work ethic and smarts they got all these pieces give me an update on Malkin because I thought he was pretty bad in that one particular game his season is still pretty good 10 goals 24 points where is he at in his ability to help drag a team somewhere? It's frustrating for Gino right now.

He's won seven games without a goal, just one in his last 11. He came out of the gate absolutely firing five goals in his first seven games. But here's the thing with Gino. And, I mean, I've been around since day number one for Gino. When he's playing his best guys, he is playing north. Forget about this north-south. It's north. It's to the net.

And Riley Smith was really good for him early on because they were both – it was almost like Riley was telling Geno, hook your wagon to my wagon and let's go, let's get to the net. Something – I don't know if it's – since there's been kind of a rotation on the right side, a different winger, almost every other game. Uh, but they started going East West. And when both of those players started going to East West, the goals just kind of dried up for both of them. So it's frustrating that I don't know if that's a great answer, if it answers your

question. Uh, but I I've noticed with Gino, when when he does this when he starts going east west he's trying to do too much he cares so much and it's frustrating if you don't watch him on a regular basis and you watch him in just that game in montreal you're like he wasn't good right wasn't good at all uh and but it's it's him trying too hard he cares so damn much but sometimes his heart's in the right place, but his compass is pointed in the wrong direction. Gotta ask you about Eric Carlson and just the overall impact.

Again, talking about the game the other night, the David Savard first goal was a tape-to-tape by Carlson, unfortunately, to the wrong guy. But should anybody be really surprised on how he just, I don't know, I don't know if I'm saying it hard enough,

the struggles of his defensive game? Is that, like, should they be surprised? Should Kyle, like, you traded for that. We've seen it throughout his career. Like, what were you expecting, Kyle? Yeah. Nicky, the way you were kind of stumbling and bumbling to get those words out of your mouth about Kyle. I'm the same way, man.

I get like you try to find the words. How do you describe Eric Carlson? Now, I play with a guy like Paul Coffey. You and I both play with a guy like Brian Leach, who had some risk, some gamble in their game, but they also knew the situations. And that's where, for choice of better words, I have a problem with Eric Carlson's game, or I think he needs to make that adjustment.

It's situational hockey. You know, if you were just down two goals and you battled back to make it 2-2, I don't think you can play like you're down five goals. And he plays this high-risk style no matter what the score is. And he's unapologetic about it. And that's fine because he oozes with confidence. I don't know if there's another player in the league that just fires away off the seat of his pants and plays off of instinct the way that Eric Carlson does.

There are some pluses to that, but also I think in the long run, it might work in some games against some weaker teams or just because he's so damn talented, but you're not going to win in the long run playing that way. That's the end of the story. And so I think some tweaks and adjustments. Listen, he's incredibly talented, probably going to end up in the Hall of Fame

for all the Norris trophies that he won. But at the end of the day, if you can have 15 Norrises on your mantle, who gives a hoot, right? Because the ultimate goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and you've got to play the right way. And I'm not saying he plays that way all the time, but when he gets into that mode of go, go, go go go go go go i'm going for it no matter what the score is no matter what the situation is no matter who i'm on the ice with or who i'm on the

ice against i think you gotta kind of you kind of kind of bundle that up a little bit because it can be too high risk at times so you got him doing that we know letang is a great offensive defenseman as well in the offseason dubas uh also went out and got one of his big moves is ryan graves uh guy who makes four and a half till you know for six years or something like that how has his addition to the penguins gone so far i think he plays top pair with letang by and large yeah and just real quick i don't know if you're going to ask me about chris letang but he's been unbelievable if you want me to talk about him i'd be more than happy to but he's been unbelievable yeah If you want me to talk about him, I'd be more than happy to. But he's been unbelievable. Maybe his numbers don't bear out, but this is the best.

I've been watching Chris Letang for years, and at times he would drive me crazy because he would kind of play that little bit of high-risk style. This is the best year I've ever seen him play. He is an absolute beast out there. And his numbers don't bear out, and he probably won't even get a vote for the Norris, but I don't think he cares.

I think when Eric Carlson came in, I think it was almost a relief for him that he doesn't have to drive the offense anymore. He's been incredible on the PK, and this is as well-rounded a Chris Letang I've ever seen him. But as far as Ryan Graves, who's been paired with Tanger all year,

he's been good, but I think he needs to be better and more consistent. And to be honest with you, at 6'5", 215, 220, I know it's not in his DNA, but he's got to be a son of a you-know-what. I think that you've got to get outside your comfort zone a little bit, Gravy, and you've got to be a real Richard on the ice, if you know what I mean. Because we need it. We don't have enough of it on the back side we've brought in john ludwig who's brought some jam back there but at the end of the day if you want to really win a stanley cup you gotta maybe get punched in the face a few times maybe get two in take three you know like

when you're that big and you're going to be playing the minutes with Chris Letang, you've got to be more of a disturber out there. And so that's a long-winded answer to your short question. But at the end of the day, he's been good for the most part. But you know there's another level for Ryan Graves that needs to get there. It really speaks volume of the character of Letang to watch a guy like Carlson come in and not be better. And be okay with not... Be better. Right? And be okay with that. Be better.

And still bring the best out of your game. So that's great insight, Borky. But, you know, when it comes to Letang and Crosby, man, they've got the recipe. They know what it takes to win. Can they not influence... If Crosby can't influence Carlson They know what it takes to win. Can they not influence? If Crosby can't influence Carlson on how to play the right way,

then I'm sorry, nobody can. No, you're right. Yeah. I guess it falls on Mike Sullivan, right, at the end of the day. I mean, he's the general, right? And that's, you got to find a way. And that's the challenge right uh and that's you got to find a way and that's the challenge uh of coaching superstar players is to get them to buy in to play the right way on a consistent basis it shouldn't fall on sid just like it shouldn't ever fall on mario back in the day um you know sometimes your teammates can give gentle reminders but at the end of the day it's

got to come from the head coach uh hold that player accountable to, yeah. And Mike Sullivan says, I don't want to take the stick out of their hands. I get that. But still, if they're running into a different pasture than all the other horses and it's disruptive to the main goal of playing the right way to win a Stanley Cup, then the hard conversation needs to be had and it's better to have it now than to wait till february and march to have it because then maybe that ship has sailed okay you brought up mike sullivan uh we listened to kyle dubas last

week talk about his coach and give the reinforcement but there's a lot of general managers that probably wouldn't have even touched the the topic just to not draw attention to it. Are people saying it's maybe time for a coaching change because this is regarded as one of the best coaches for the last 10 years? When you go through a losing spell like we went through, it doesn't matter who you are. The whispers are going to be out there. And social media all of a sudden has some some flex some muscles right uh and if it got back to kyle i'd

rather the general manager get out there get ahead of it and just say hey whatever people are saying and whispering about stop it this is a guy this is the guy that we are going to stick with and he is going to be the head coach of the p Penguins. Period. End of story. And then you just stop talking about it, right? Because you're like, okay, we know Fenway's behind him. Now we know the general manager is behind him also. So he is the guy. I mean, here's the other thing that I tell people all the time.

Okay, let me entertain your thoughts and your frustrations. Penguins aren't winning enough. Let's get rid of Sully. You want to get rid of Sully and bring in who? Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't hear you. Well, now it's Berube. No, come on. But to bring in a better coach than Mike Sullivan,

he's one hell of a coach. He's a bit of old school. But again, it's a challenge. When you're coaching this many personalities, egos, whatever you want to call it, guys, they're superstars. It's not that easy, man. But that's the challenge for Mike Sullivan. And, yeah, the sand is going through the hourglass with these guys. I mean, Tanger and Sid, they're 36. Gino's 37.

There's no time for nicey-nicey to sit and wait for these guys to get it together if that hard conversation needs to be made it needs to be made now and forget about hurt feelings so borky where do the the penguins fit into the metro division by true talent i look at gold differential if you look at the end of the year gold differential is like the separator between playoffs and not they're plus nine ahead of them are the Devils at minus two, Capitals minus nine, Islanders minus three. Like, they're not a seventh-place team in the Metro, are they?

No, they're not. And they're still within striking distance. And with all the ups and downs that they've had, they're still with, what, four points of a wild-card spot, six points from being second in the Metro. So it's all right there for them on the table. And you look, they got the Leafs on Saturday. They got Minnesota.

Then they got Carolina at home. And then they go into Ottawa and they got St. Louis and the Islanders to close out 2024. So it's all on the table for them to get right into the hunt. But you're right. The one that kind of skews that number a little bit is they had that 10-2 win in San Jose. So that plus eight, if you take that out of the mix, they've kind of been wishy-washy, if you will. They understand.

They're all big boys, and if you talk to them about it, they don't sugarcoat it. They don't sweep it under the rug. They know we have not been good enough, and we've got to get our act together. And the one guy, right right you brought him up early the one guy that is the constant the guy that just keeps dragging everybody into the fight dragging everybody up the standings is 87 you just you just can't believe the way this guy battles and finds way to put pucks in the net finds way

to to have that yin and the yang with Jake Gensel, the great chemistry. And really, there's been a rotation. It looks like Ricard Raquel might be back tomorrow night and be up there with Sidney Crosby. And you wonder if they can catch lightning in a ball because Rax has not scored yet this year in the 17 games he's played. But Sidney Crosby has been the guy, the one constant,

as well as I mentioned the goaltending, the one constant that's been able to keep the Penguins in this fight. He looks like he's 25 years old. I mean, he's worth the price of admission right by himself. But I don't have to tell you guys, and I use this saying all the time, and I'm going to use it again, so I apologize if you heard it before. When preparation meets opportunity, that's when you have success. And Sid is preparing for this since he was, what, 12,

but also in the offseason, game day routines, everything he does to keep his body peak, to keep his mind peak, and to keep that stoking that competitive fire that he keeps white hot all the time. We are so damn lucky to have him here because you never want to think of what if, you know, he wasn't here. Because he's the guy that keeps, every time this team dips down, 87 rises up and keeps dragging them back into the fight. Let's get the puck drop right now.

I want to watch Sid versus the Leafs. Hey, Borky, we asked you to help us tee up the game and you did that and some more. Thanks for doing this, pal. All right, guys. I enjoy it. Thanks, Borky, we asked you to help us tee up the game, and you did that and some more. Thanks for doing this, pal. All right, guys. I enjoyed it. Thanks, Borky. Good time, Stanley Cup champion. Phil Bork.

Yeah, bud. And he's been there, done that. You can just listen to him and get a sense that he knows what it takes to win. The most telling answer is the one on Carlson where you're trying not to say this guy is a defensive liability he's trying not to say he's a liability because he's so good at what he does you know creating offense making passes setting people up producing offense but at some point you need to be able to adjust your risk slider okay a little we're gonna wrap up this hour. We're going to thank Gord Stelic and Phil Bork for joining us

in the second hour back. Tell us what week it is for his book's bestseller. Is it still in the bestseller? I don't know. He's going to tell us all about it. Doug McClain off the rails Friday.

It's a whole new level in the national hour. Don't go away. Plenty more, including Jordan Cairo. Wow.