Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Problems at the Quarter Pole

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the Leafs' 2-1 win over the Panthers in a shootout, the bizarre, two-touch ending to the game, the physical imbalance between the two teams, line-change sloppiness and blueline depth becoming a concern with Giordano set to miss time. Later, on Joseph Woll's spectacular performance and the comfort he brings in net compared to Samsonov. Finally, a chat on the Leafs' inability to win in regulation.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. 

whether you're listening on sports at 590 or watching on sports at 360 and sports net plus from 4 to 6 p.m as always everybody ropes everybody rides on the real kipper and born show nick kiprios justin born sammy mckee derrick brandeo and james? Yeah. Who the hell is James Wilson? A new addition. I mean... Oh. Oh, I screwed up. It's Frank. We still got Baraska. We got Frank Baraska. I got shot out of a

cannon to start this show. And you screwed up the lineup. So, I got an email this morning from said James Wilson, and I just assumed that a man that would be emailing me would be on today. I heard that there was a day. He's proactive. Yeah, unlike me.

He's proactive. And they caught me off guard, and I put him in the lineup, and I screwed up. And I'm sorry, Frank. I'm sorry, James. It's my bad. Frank the Tank is back into action. Have you met James Wilson before?

No. Yeah, maybe. Is he a little feller? Can I call him Wee Willie? I don't know. Sounds like an AI-generated person. I need a nickname or something on him. Sorry, I'm just sweating over here. J. Will. Quite literally

in fear. If you're sweating, imagine what James Wilson's feeling, and he hasn't even started the show yet. But we're glad everybody's on board. And as always, if you can't catch us live, you got the opportunity to download us on your podcast wherever you get your pods.

And text us at 590-590. And Sammy, before we kick things off to the Leafs 2-1 over shootout win through overtime over the Panthers, talk to me about the NHL All-Star. That thing is creeping up ever so slowly here. Yeah. But it's coming. Yeah, our friends at Rogers.

I believe we have friends at Rogers. Want to tell us that the tickets for the All-Star game are going on sale on December 5th. So included in this is a draft. So the All-Star Thursday at Scotiabank Arena featuring Tim Hortons NHL All-Star Player Draft, the NHL Alumni Man of the Year honoring the 1967 Maple Leafs,

no one will make fun of that, and the Canadian Tire PWHL 3-on-3 Showcase. So like I said, tickets to the NHL All-Star Thursday go on sale Tuesday, December 5th at 10 a.m. on Ticketmaster. And you can watch it all on the – you can catch all the action, including the Rogers NHL All-Star Game on Sportsnet. So there you go.

Kip, are you in the Alumni Man of the Year? I can confirm I am not winning that award. Okay. I disagree. You should. It's a big day. It's a big weekend. I'm assuming you guys will be the talk of the town.

You'll be bringing everybody in. You'll be hosting, picking up everybody from the airport. I'll be watching on TV. What about you as a super fan? This stuff must excite you to have everybody in town over three days. Yeah. Are you going to kind of go out on your own during those three days? Are you going to try to ride Mike Cotales?

It depends. He's going to be selling Super Sammy hats. 10 bucks per hat. 15 with an autograph in front of Scotiabank Arena. I just sounded like John Cooper there. But listen. Listen. The All-Star Game, I'm past the age where the All-Star Game is for me.

But I think to have this event in the city, it's very cool. And I think it brings a lot of people in. I'm most excited that Matt Sandin will be here. That's what he said when he was on with us a couple weeks ago. I just think that that part of it is cool. The game itself, I think they're actually playing hockey this year, right? They didn't lay out the fact that it's not going to be three-on-three. Is it going to be five-on-five, a hockey game?

I'm not sure about those details, but I think that'll be fun. The draft thing is a really good addition. Whoever gets picked last, ha-ha-ha. But yeah, I mean, I'm not excited for those details, but I think that'll be fun. The draft thing is a really good addition. Whoever gets picked last, ha, ha, ha. But yeah, I mean, I'm not excited for the All-Star Game. You know, this year, the final four people are being assigned, so no one will be picked last last. Oh. That's what I heard.

No hurt feelings. I mean... I guess, or 25% is hurt. But Phil, I mean, that'll go down in forever. With Phil sitting there by himself and Ovi, like like taking a picture of him on the flip phone like that taking a picture is really the highlight i would love to see that picture how is it not everywhere all right so there you go all-star game come to toronto buy tickets uh ticket master just starting december 5th at 10 a.m boys celebrate the city in the game 10 a.m eastern so

all right and uh how much is celebrated off of a 2-1 shootout win zero noah gregor and joseph wall shine according to you on my lineup sheet well after that i don't really know where to go every year our show adopts one player, and I feel like Noah Greger is our collective son. We have said nothing but good things about him this year, and we had a night. I made it abundantly clear the last couple of weeks he couldn't hit the side of a barn.

Yeah, but he did other things well. He hit the front door last night. That was a goal, man. He almost split the puck in two in the bar he hit it so hard. Yeah, and I mean, get that leg out. You know, the goalie thinks he's going across the net with all that speed. Ping! That was unbelievable.

The three stats I put in the lineup are these. The Maple Leafs have played an NHL-high nine games past regulation this season. The Maple Leafs have as many regulation wins this season as the San Jose Sharks. And the Maple Leafs have committed an NHL-worst eight too-many-men penalties this season. So those are the three stats I included in the lineup for you guys today. Those are not positive. This show's a nightmare. Sorry, that game was a nightmare for

our show, Kip, because they won and so fans really love that but there was not much to like. Can I ask you both a question? Please. Did you just like turn it off or did you stick with it? What do you mean? Because when Rodriguez scores the goal.

I stuck with it. Because I do Leafs talk after with J.D. Bonkus. Watch on YouTube and Sportsnet Plus and everywhere. I went straight to put my contacts in, have a glass of water, go to the washroom, get everything ready. And I came down. I was sitting there. And I was fully about to start the show thinking that they had lost. I had no idea that they had changed it over and it was very confusing now uh apparently this

wasn't the first time I think the league has dealt with two touches yeah on a shootout goal like Sammy Chippen but I don't know if there's anyone closer um in terms of looking like it was a legitimate goal than this one. Yeah. But I will say, like, I don't, I'm not even open to argument on whether that should have, like, counted or not. Like, he hit it a second time. Yeah, I don't think anybody could, outside of Florida,

maybe going, it's a chintzy call. Do we have Maurice? Yeah, okay. So you think you would have liked it to go your way? You want to go to that first? Well, do you just want to hear him on it? Is that when it's relevant? We're talking about it?

Yeah, you can play the Maurice clip. Clip two on Maurice? I have not seen that, especially that fast. You don't want to think it's important, but they have rules. It's important that we have them. Because there's no other way to do that, right? Because if he rips it off the guy that goes off his shin pad and it goes in is that a goal that happens so fast so it wasn't

yeah it's important we have rules but he's just cold like is he serious or not he's wearing yeah i watched the whole four minute he was unhinged last night. He didn't know how to feel, huh? I don't know what. It was an unhinged coach performance. He bugs you like John Cooper bugs you. And it really has everything. It really just has everything to do with that's a coach that's stuck it to you. Can I be honest?

I actually really like Paul Maurice, and I thought Paul Maurice was a great coach when he was here. He got the short end of the stick. He got a ton of a crappy Leafs team. I liked him a lot. I'm waiting on the butt. There is no butt.

He's a good coach. The butt is. Yeah, he coached a team that— He's feeding Sammy's lunch every spring. Well, every spring. For the first time, he did. I mean, Cooper has fed a few times. I just think that he knows when he's in Toronto.

He knows when he's got the audience. And he knows how to perform for the people down there that they eat it up. You know, every other coach is boring. And he goes down there and he shows a little bit of personality. They're all eating out of the palm of his hand. So he loves that. Yeah. Right?

A ton of personality. A ton of personality. Him and Cooper, I think, lead the league. And just condescending conversations part of the work through part of the check. Okay. We're going to get into great detail of what we saw or didn't see last night out of the Toronto Maple Leafs,

but let's go to an overall view of what Sheldon Keefe thought of the game last night. Eight minutes left in the first period. Their shots were seven, seven at that time, uh, zero, zero.

And then we just, we sagged after that. Like, we just really, you know, I don't know. It coincided with Mitch taking that puck in the face, and I don't know if that's it. I don't think it should be it. But that's about the checkpoint. That's right. I went and looked at the Mitch injury to see what the shots were,

and there was eight minutes left. And we just really had an emotional sag after that and you sag emotionally and competitively you lose your intensity against that team and it's going to look like the way it did the rest of that first period but I thought we got real life from our penalty kill in the second period and then from there I think it's a pretty even game. We're right there. So I think it's good that we didn't do a show after the first period last night because that first period to me was really bad. We suck.

We haven't four-checked. Yeah. Kipper? And you? Extremely disappointing that a team like the Leafs are waiting on a team that played 24 hours. And it was a hard-fought game in Ottawa.

Like, don't look at the score. Look at the fact that I think Ottawa battled hard with them and experienced or just not ready for prime time. We can say all we want about Ottawa, but they took a strip off of Florida the night before. And to not jump all over that, to Sheldon's point, I don't get it. I think he mentioned off that clip we just played that competitively, I think he mentioned, that clip we just played that competitively,

I think he mentioned, you know, he's questioning the competitiveness of his own hockey team. That's the biggest disappointment. Yeah. You know, I watched the game in kind of a funny, out-of-order fashion because don't worry about it. So I went back. I watched the first period last last night oh my god which let me tell you what a thrill that was watching that period but it's funny because when you know when i first came to the game um watching it the leafs really

were it reminded me a lot of playoffs chasing the game in a way trying to get the next goal but really controlling the play at times and you could see all the strengths but it's only once they're behind so go back and watch the first period sport logic had the puck battle win percentage at 80 to 20 for florida in the first period last night and it's so evident with a guy like willie who can take over the game kind of poking at pucks and looking for a breakaway on the other side of the pile or stretching and trying to look for a breakaway pass it doesn't come like these guys want to see if it'll happen and then it doesn't come and they bear down they start to play you know they

can play when when they really turn it on that first period was just a lot of hope hockey just hoping it would work out for them my first period hot take yeah i you know i just it's a team like you said that you'd played that played 24 hours before had gone through a war with those guys they're a team that beat you out of the playoffs in pretty embarrassing fashion let's be honest they lost in five games people were expecting the least to win it in five games i believe kipper even maybe said sweep at one point in that series um and you just come out like flat and it's like i know it's not their personality to run somebody into the m boards or talk some it just no they didn't even look at it felt like they were afraid of the panthers but they didn't want to make

contact and fear that it might come back their way like it just they felt so timid to me it's a horrible existence as a sports fan watching your team feeling like they're afraid of the other team because that's what it felt like to me in the first period. Like terrified of contact. I didn't want to like engage them in case. Like they were watching the game the night before and they're like, boy, we don't want that. That was supposed to be somewhat addressed.

I know. With Max Domi and Ryan Reeves who were both in the lineup last night. And like, listen, at the end of the day, Max isn't big enough or heavy enough to. Shout out to him, though, for being really awesome. Oh, 100% showing up. At least he cares. Right?

At least he cares. But if it's just going to be put on him or Ryan Reeves to go out there while everybody else gets to play the way they want to play, in that non-confrontational way. But this is it. They're wasting everybody's time. If you listen to this show for now three years, I've always said, like, taping toughness to the core

does not change the DNA of the people who matter, who play the big minutes, who are involved the most. And so that is still a remaining issue, I would say. You know, you see some flashes of it as they get desperate. And, you know, you saw Matthews eventually run a guy over and you start to see pieces of it. Yeah. But it's not their nature.

And they need to be backed into a corner to show it. Neil Andrews' worst game of the year? For sure. Yeah. Which, it's just one game. Well, it's three games without a point now. Okay. But, I mean, you absolutely called this. As far as the worst, but as the worst look for him,

I haven't seen a worse one. Yeah, he didn't look. Full for him up up to this point i mean he's he's uh he's managed to keep those far and few between games they made the lineup change and the lines were ugly that kneelander line uh kneelander matthews and nize had a course e4 percentage of shot attempts in the first period of zero percent so they had no shot attempts that way and a bunch against so you know it wasn't good well it's not good so you know that's sort of the initial it's not good hey thank you love it so yeah some work to be done here to say okay we got to give this line some run or whatever it is. Marner played all but, what, six minutes before taking a puck

in the mouth. And that obviously didn't help Tavares' line. But they were somewhat better than Matthews. Or no. We just lump them in. I mean, did you think they were?

Listen, look at Marner's numbers. They're parallel to Matthew's numbers the last, what, seven or eight games. Should we get Brad May to say it's not good? Yeah, yeah, no, I know. I thought once he got the cage on, he looked a lot better, which is funny. Maybe it's just because he looked like he was junior. That cage did him no favors in the shootout. No, he tripped over his own feet looking down.

100%. But to me, he just looked like he was a little bit more engaged. Maybe he was pissed off. I think he missed an opportunity to ask the trainer, get this thing off me in the shootout. Yeah, that's a good point. Interesting. You didn't need to protect yourself in that moment.

That's funny. But, you know, I will say i'll draw parallels to that playoff series against florida where it just felt like they couldn't get in they couldn't get to the inside for the longest time and you know they beat tampa bay on the backs of shooting the puck into traffic tips and rebounds and whatever and against florida they have had a hard time getting to the inside and their ability to break the puck out is not great against a non-good forward checking team yeah but against a team like that it just felt like and we have a clip that we can get to about the you know how disconnected the forwards and and and defense are but that a game like that

just really illustrated how bad it is at the moment so sure let's do that okay i'll show them key for clip 10 yeah i do see some of that right i mean and again it comes back to a mindset and it's it's it's a challenge you got you got some of your top guys that that aren't feeling it you know i haven't produced at the level that they expected themselves uh so that becomes the focus that's what you guys are asking about every day you're not asking about how how their forecheck has been or how they've defended or how competitive then you're asking them why they haven't scored it sometimes it gets in your head let's let's stay focused on the things that matter and the process that you put in place to me that's that's been the strength and the backbone of our team for the last number of years you know when you stray away from that, or in our case,

you probably haven't quite found it yet, a combination of a number of new players, injuries on defense, and some of our guys that are trying to find their game offensively, you end up being disconnected. So to me, it's just about focusing on what we can control with our process and our structure. And I think everything else just falls into place. So we got to get focused on that.

Over the last few years, I've just not been a fan of the stretch pass. No, like the Leafs employing it, yeah. I get they want to play fast and get the puck into the skill guys but the disconnect and the gap between the forwards and the d is for me it's been an issue for not only this season but over the last few years with sheldon yeah i did look up uh icings today i was curious about that myself and they are in the top third I think of most icings I think they've you know they're around high or mid 80 icings through 20 games feels like a lot of icings yeah it's been a lot of icings the other teams in that mix are not great by the way the penguins far and away have the

most by like 20 but anyway so the Leafs do ice the puck a lot kip to your point and so i see a few things with this team that i believe now you know we're 20 games in i think for the least exactly and i'm starting to form some solid beliefs one is your point about defense or uh passing and just the lack of connection this to me is the icings and the stretch passes there's no connection in the offensive zone there's no support to spread out. They just don't seem to use each other particularly well. You know, the other thing, other two things for me, they don't forecheck particularly well.

They really have a hard time getting pucks back. 25th in the NHL. It's stopping the opposing breakout from getting out to the neutral zone. And then we'll talk about the defense at some point. I can't recall over. So neutral zone zone offensive zone defensive zone the whole ice process has not been good and i mentioned this and i'll reiterate it one more time i've not seen over the course that the core group together that they've had the puck

less and they chase and they they can't make plays because they don't have the puck no they don't they do not and that to me is for checking i think a lot has been lost in terms of for checking when you go to zach hyman ilya mckeough andre kasha you know a lot of guys who just went and got it for them like speedy people who got in on pucks and and went after it hard even bunting was a good puck pursuit guy like they don't have great puck pursuit guys right now and they're not able to forecheck the one look that we did get last night was sheldon keith losing it on the bench something that uh kind of reminded me of paul maurice last march here in toronto eerily similar to me. Had the face match and the suit color.

Tyler Bertuzzi was the brunt of it, I think. Yeah, Tyler Bertuzzi, he was giving it to him, huh? So have we seen that before? I'm trying to remember. I've seen it. I know, but I know he's lost his mind on refs, and I know he's really given it to some refs and other stuff. But to yell at his players like that, I can't. I don't think i've seen it yeah i think you're right sammy i don't i don't recall so then what does that mean well he's starting to lose patience with you know

let's uh let's get him uh on clip number 11 sheldon keith on a kipper's clipper on too many men and then we'll follow the whole conversation afterwards. Well, it's not too many men. I mean, if you look at it, it's Nylander's on the ice the entire time. He's eligible to receive a pass, and Tavares is coming off the ice, and Bertuzzi's eligible to change for him.

It's a line change that happens hundreds of times a game. So in that case, to me, the official reacts to the situation and to the other team yelling. However, I look at it more as an issue where we pass the puck to our bench unnecessarily. We're trying to make a line change. It creates chaos, and sometimes officials make the wrong call because it just looks like it's too many men when it's a legal line change happening with the puck arriving.

And we've been caught on a couple of those that haven't gone our way. But the officials, I think if they look back at it, they'd probably say, you know what, we should have let that one go. See, he's right on all fronts. They did miss the call. So he's right there. And I'm glad he didn't let his team

off the hook on putting pucks towards the bench when you should have some feel that you know when guys need to get off the ice yeah and can i make an equally valid point, I think, here, Kip, which is why are you changing with five seconds left? Are we trying to get fresh legs for five seconds? Five seconds left in the period. The bigger picture in this, even to go above just passing a puck towards the bench, is they are undisciplined on line changes as a whole. They don't change well.

They overextend their shifts. They come off when they want to come off, not when they're supposed to come off. And I put that right back on Sheldon. This is your team. Control it. If someone's not changing well, and even if you watch Willie Nylander,

who, again, I'm not crapping all over him. But look at his body language on that particular play. I did. You don't know what he's thinking, what he's doing. Is he coming off? He looked like a guy that was absolutely coming off. And if you are, come to the bench hard. Okay? coming off and if you are come to the bench hard okay if you come to the bench hard there's nobody

that can misread what your intentions are i also had uh another coach in a league um that i messaged with saying what are the assistant coaches doing you know where you know where what are their roles in this aside from facilitating changes like that's a part of being on the bench and being alert and you know letting guys know they hear the head coach call names you know you can be in guys ears and going hey you're up you're going who you got let's hear it like you know there's some involvement there so certainly it's not just the players on the ice not just the the coach, but it's a whole team issue. And it has been for years. I wrote an article two years ago on the Leafs' line change.

When they were near tops of the league. Who was it that was talking about that? We played a clip from the other day. Was it Tocket? Was talking about how important line changes are. When they were like, our changes suck. He brought it up a hundred times. It is the attention to details that are the difference between winning and losing. And Leafs don't have that in their golf bag right now.

They don't have that club to play. No, and so their coach was sick of it and had an absolute meltdown. Can we listen to the clip now? Yeah, absolutely. Kip, we go to the clip on clip eight. It's the mindset of our team in that moment, right? We've been talking lots about recognizing moments and being good with our situational awareness.

We just scored to tie the game and get a chance now to go out and win the faceoff. We have the puck in full control, and we don't take care of it, and we're back on our heels again. So that's a team mindset thing um obviously burton in that instance but there's been too many instances of that so sometimes you get emotional on the bench and you guys see it oftentimes it's behind closed doors and you don't see it but uh regardless it's an area that we have to get better in and obviously i gotta do a better job of making them uh even more aware or holding them accountable if it's not going to be to the standard that

that's required and that will certainly will be the case. Let's jump right into we found the Rick Tockett comment on is it line changes or just attention to line changes. Let's listen to Rick Tockett talk about that with his Vancouver Canucks. Yeah it's the team that's willing to do the right things. You know what I mean? And Seattle did. We had some awful changes.

Awful changes. You know, changes lose you hockey games, lose you playoff series. You know, you have to change properly. And we didn't. I assume, too, the change coming out of the icing right before the alexia goal their their one one goal yep yeah that's okay i mean it is something so telling that it's so important to talk it yes and it is a byproduct of the bigger picture. Leafs don't have a good clear picture right now of what they are or what they believe in as a team together.

They still want to go do their own things. One guy's changing. The other one wants to take one more rush up the ice. Now the next guy who's waiting for the last guy to change is getting ripped off his 20 or 30-second shift. He's pissed off, and it's just a domino effect. It's just not one moment a line change can create. It's the domino effect on your hockey club.

That's what Rick Tockett's talking about. But when you have built the entire thing around these four guys and everyone knows they get called the core four they make the most money they're the guys that have to carry the whole thing when you've built this ecosystem this infrastructure aren't they gonna just naturally feel be like oh we got to stay out a little longer because we got a score we got like it's a chicken and the egg to me where it's like that's the whole thing is built around them and they're like we got to stay out there a little longer i'm not saying it's right i'm saying it's wrong in fact but they probably think of their mind we have to do it all so they're staying longer i think that

goes back to very early in this year talking about team a and team b you know and how it's you know the guys who are on the leafs and going to be on the Leafs. And then this needs to get fixed. It needs to be addressed because you know where this is heading. There's pain. Fill me in. Make the playoffs and lose in the first or second round. That's where it's heading. For sure.

And so, you know, I have an article today out on sportsnet.ca, which is about getting ahead of that. Getting out ahead because they still score and create chances at an elite level, which is something other teams who are in their spot in the standings can't do. So, like, they have some foundation to have success later. But Tree Living can't wait for this to just, let's just see. Let's just see if something will change over the course of the year. We've been here in Toronto talking about this team.

It doesn't. It doesn't change. and so you need to make these moves early and particularly now geo out this decor is got to be able to have some help you know penalty killing breaking pucks out defending the d zone that's to me what's key now is to not look at the results, but look at the process, which has not been good enough. All right. Lots of talk about the trainer, Paul, talking to Sheldon Keefe. It looked like he was reiterating bad news for Mitch Marner on his puck to the jaw, but it was Mark Giordano and probably delivering the news that he ain't coming back and we may not see him

for the next little while. He's grabbing his thumb, they showed it on the broadcast, hard shot towards his thumb. Probably got to think, I'm no doctor, I'm no Ed Jovanovsky, but probably a broken thumb. Let's go to Sheldon. Let's go to Sheldon on that in clip five. It remains to be seen.

We haven't been without him very much since he's been here. Obviously, there's leadership, experience, a guy that gives us everything that he has, penalty kill utility, all those kind of things. We've already got injuries on defense, so we're already asking a lot of him and asking a lot of others, too, and it'll be even more so now. But it's an opportunity for others to step up on defense

and even more reason for our forwards to really support our defense, which to me they haven't done a good enough job of. Okay, you guys know how I feel about the whole G.O. thing right from the get-go. Asking too much. Asking too much. Listen to Sheldon say, yeah, we ask a lot until he has no more. Well, yeah. Okay.

So ask a guy that you should be building towards something, not just fly by the seat of your pants. The guy was up to 20 minutes a night. Like, are we that surprised he got hurt? I don't know, man. I don't know, man. No, I know. No, but listen, I'm not going to sit here and go,

you hurt because he got a slap on the thumb. He didn't get tired. It was an accident, Justin, waiting to happen when a 40-year-old who should be playing 12 or 13 minutes is asked to play 20. That's an accident waiting to happen. Yeah, I can't give you that one. I don't think there's, you know, I agree that, like, he's playing too much. I would also say, though, that if you're Keith,

this becomes a tree-living thing. Who do you want me to play? You want me to play Lagasin to take off, you know, to relieve some of the stress on him? The one thing where they're going to really struggle is penalty killing. Because he was playing almost three minutes a night. Yeah, and he blocks everything.

He blocks everything. So you're telling me now, you know, the Stars shouldn't, because of that chance, like, what were the odds that he was going to break a bone? But that's his role. You have a guy who's a PK, shot-blocking guy. If he can't do those things, he can't play for them. A 26-year-old guy, Stomp, could break very easily as well.

It can, but not when this guy needs to be out there 20 minutes a night is my point. You set him up to fail. Listen, I don't disagree with the idea that his usage is like, it wasn't going to end great by the end of the season if they didn't find some solution. One way or another, this guy was going to run out of gas. He was going to get hurt.

Something. But, you know, to your point, like, okay, I get it. You don't have anybody else. But that doesn't mean that you still have to throw the guy out there like that until you know he breaks but yes it does it's on the it's on the manager you're gonna miss the playoffs well maybe maybe they're in fifth as of yesterday in their division they'll find their points we know they'll find the points they found the points last night kipper it's a different they should have been down three nothing last night four nothing this team finds a way to get their

regular season points that shouldn't be a concern the concern is what the hell are you going to look like in march i so that that is a fundamental discussion because i don't think there's agreement from that coach that playoffs are guaranteed or from fan base you know i think he's grinding for points here. He lost his mind on the bench. I get it. Coaches get fired. Yeah. They don't look like they're building something. Just ask Dean Evason, I guess.

But at the same time, ask more from players. Demand more from other players. He just doesn't have the options. This is my article today because it's, okay, so Benoit, Lagasin, and Timmons are going to play more minutes. And now, I guess, Lejoie is going to come up. The Raj? The Raj is going to play.

You know, you just can't do that for long these guys can work as gum in the hoover dam hole for a little bit but eventually the water's coming through so you need solutions there it's it's benoit was okay yeah sure anything kill you last night but this is holmberg last year to me where these guys are going to be okay for a bit but it's not a viable long-term plan what makes good guys really good is they're good every night and they're good for the whole season what makes bad guys kind of bad is that they can have one or two nights where they won't kill you but stretched out over a season there's going to be a lot of nights you're like holy crap what's he doing i thought about like in my article i wrote like i can get on a

treadmill and run it like a pretty high clip for, like, 30 seconds. Yes. But the really good runners do it for, like, a marathon. Okay, there. You say multi. I know. 30 seconds. The idea is, can you keep doing it?

And I can't. Yeah. Okay, let's go to a quick clip of Sheldon talking about his depth guys. Clip seven. This guy's done a good job for us. You know, They really have. They're tall guys with good reach, and they're competitive. They get in the way.

Whether it's five on five, penalty kill, both guys have given us lots of confidence in them. So we took Lagasin out last night, but I think he's done a really good job for us, and he'll come back in. Like I said, we'll be asking more of those guys now, but they've shown that they can do a job for us. They've given us really good minutes and kept the puck out of our net

when they're out there for the most part. That's really all you can ask for from them. You should just go down the hall and get more tall guys from the Raptors. We just like tall guys. You got any tall guys? Yeah, come on. Boucher's Canadian. You could probably strap him him up perfect there yeah he's like 6 10 you know benoit and lagasin have been good and so my article and my commentary now i hope is not that i don't think those guys

have been good because they have my worry is that they can't consistently do this like you so when's lilligan coming back he's been out 10 games now, so he's eligible. I don't think. Like, high ankle sprains could be six or eight weeks. I think Luke Fox tweeted today that there's no signs of him, like, inching towards the ice again. Like, he's not close. You're better off breaking on many occasions than the high ankle sprain.

So then he's gone for however long. Geo's gone for however long. And then, you know, you're just just gonna rock and roll with those three guys in the bottom half like we are gonna talk about wool and gregor at some point because they were positive things but also to your point those guys you're talking about timmons has been really it hasn't gone great in his return he only played two games so far but yeah he kind He turns the puck over a record amount. He kind of looks like Connor Timmons. He looks like a poor man's Klingberg.

Yeah. Listen, I just, I know Kipper, it's hard. Everybody at Hockey Guy says it's hard. But how do you not bring somebody in? Like, if you run this, they're going to be without Gio for a long time, without Louis Lugin for a long time. Yeah, I would imagine that there are working the phones feverishly to find a defenseman now to...

You need a body. ...plug a hole, a Gio hole right now. Yeah, someone in that sort of role. Do you want to listen to Keefe on their thin decor? That seems relevant. You have four? Yeah, go for it. We're getting thin. Yeah, we're just talking about it. We're getting thin.

Yeah, we're just talking about it. We're thin, and we've got some guys that played big minutes today, so we're thinking we might be shorthanded for practice tomorrow, just giving guys some time away. It's a busy week for us in terms of every other day, so we asked a lot of those guys today, but they stood in there. Little love for Morgan Riley, who played 30 minutes and 30 seconds last night. He's been

unbelievable. Maybe the Leafs MVP this year? Yeah. He's been solid. It drops like a stone behind him, unfortunately. The play he made on

Nick Cousins on the breakaway, where he was going to come around from the left side of him, and he paused and brought it over the other shoulder and just knocked it away clean was really, really nice. Yeah. Okay, let's take a quick break here.

Catch our breath. More Leaf conversation, including the one that Justin just mentioned on one box that they don't necessarily have to worry about. Goaltending. Conversation on Joseph Wall after the break. You're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born. Diving deep into Leafs, Raptors, Jays, and NFL.

The J.D. Bunkins Podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Kipper, it's Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Back for the real Kipper and Bourne Show. Starting to get messages from Spotify people with lists and stuff. Are you guys getting that too? I'm really glad you brought that up, Kipper.

Yeah. Because I got one from Derek Augustine who says that he's spent in 2023 2,382 minutes listening to us. That's a lot of minutes. And Derek, I just want to say, get a life, man. No, he doesn't want to say that. I would like to say we appreciate you, Derek. I actually, so Spotify Raps have been doing this for a while. Maybe like, I don't know, seven or eight years now that they've been doing this. And I love it.

And I really have always cherished it because it's a good. I actually get a lot of my music from there. I steal other people's most listened songs. It's a good barometer of like what you've done in the year listening wise and to have like i've gotten a million tweets and dms from people on instagram of like having my stuff in there and having our stuff like lease talks in there real camera it's crazy i know the real trip so i'm happy people are saying keep sending them i it. And I'm just kidding. Thank you. Just me on year 300 having listened to Jimmy Eat World. Yeah.

Apparently. Not to get a two-a-side, but they juice the popular artists way up. Yeah, you don't believe that you listen to that much Drake, I know. Agreed. I don't. I really don't. And he's my number one guy? Come on.

No chance. No way. All right. Okay. Okay, sorry. What's the score last night without Joseph Wall? Honestly, 4-0 in the first period. Yeah. You had four?

Yeah. I had two. Yeah. It's not what it was. That's for sure. He was so good. And this is really, God, there's a comfort level with him in net, isn't there? Yes.

I think fundamentally there's a consistency there that you're a lot more comfortable maybe at any point you ever were with Samsonov, to be honest with you. And he had a decent year last year. He had a good year. I worry about relying on someone so inexperienced but god the way nhl goalies kind of come out of nowhere these days and they're all comparable he at least seems

in the group of goaltenders who can do it to me watching him it's the lack of high highs and low lows like with samsonov some of his nights he's unbelievable and some of the nights he doesn't make a save yeah you go into the game. It's like three on four. It's like Kucherov scores three points on him in the first five minutes of the game. It can go really bad. But I just feel like the consistency of Wall,

you know what you're going to get a little more? A little bit more dependable on that front, do you think? Yeah. We got Keefe on him too if we want. Can the Leafs just maybe in the next five or ten games just start winning games where their goalie doesn't have to be the first star like that would be ideal it's either so far it's either been really great or below average but can it can it hit the point where a lot of teams are getting goaltending

that's make the save you're supposed to save? Yeah, that would be great. And last night you don't think the Leafs deserve to win that game but their goalie keeps them in it. And that's, you know, you need some of these early in the season while you sort out some of your issues. Why don't we listen to Sheldon talk about Joseph Wolfe. Just so solid i mean we gave up you know this has been a this has been a problem for us here in the last little bit you know a lot of the best chances we've given up of coming off of

our breakouts giving the puck back to the other team and all of a sudden it's at our net you don't have a whole lot of time to think or to set or to make any reads. You just got to battle and be athletic and compete. And he did that. So I thought his play through that segment, the final segment of the first period, obviously keeps us around in the game. I didn't think we gave up very much after that for the most part. But anything that we did, he was solid. And, of course, you you know overtime and shootout

are you almost running out of defenseman sport logic had florida with seven grade a chances uh six grade b chances and nine grade c chances so to give up one goal on that combination of 22 chances i'm glad he sounds like a guy that knows that he won, but probably deserves to lose. Yeah. Keefe? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He does.

You'd think that he would have lost 5-2 based on his tone and his shortness, I guess. It's the most told story about the Leafs right now that they have five regulation wins in 20 games. I must have heard it five times last night. I see it on Twitter all the time. They're not handling business with any sort of efficiency a couple days ago he was asked a question that had that in the question he's like oh you guys love that one oh yeah he's aware yeah he's like you guys love talking about that one it's like yeah well it's a worthy talking point in my opinion you're

not running away with games here so what oh we i'm just gonna ask you guys that uh like what you saw out of the florida panthers because there's a team that went to the final but i'm i was really impressed with their last two games they yeah they looks better to me they look better they look faster than they did last year yeah i agree is that because they they dropped the stalls it could be or gudas but oh yeah those there's three guys but also i think they know what they are now like last year when maurice had his meltdown in toronto they felt like a team in search of an identity they didn't really have a clear picture of what they were i think playoffs helped them sort out who they were sam reinhardt has become one of the game's elite scorers now like they've got they've got talent all through the lineup and seem to have

found themselves a little bit so i would agree with you they're uh they're a real contender and where would oliver eckman larson be on the depth chart in Toronto? And on this Florida team, he's five and six. I mean, currently? Top pair. Yeah. So that gives you some idea of what the difference is between Florida right now and the Toronto Maple Leafs.

That in itself should tell you a lot. I do think that their D is the envy of a lot of teams. You know, Vegas is now without Shea Theodore, but that's always a D-core that people look at as elite. When Colorado won the Cup, their D-core was elite. Good D-cores tend to go far. And, yeah, this looks like a legitimate D-core there in Florida. I got a question for you guys.

Thoughts on Max? Doing the hair thing to Bennett? Yeah. I'm fine with it. Okay. As three well-haired men, I don't know how that feels. Well, I'm not.

I'm not. It's for long here, but I do appreciate that, you know, it's something you get to... The bigger concern was in an important game, will Max hold his cool

or would he end up with four minutes? Like that exchange, that earlier situation. What did you think of that four minute? He got the extra rabid punch in. Yeah. I thought you were already giving him one. They absolutely never call that. Like that's just, they never call it.

And if you're going to call the extra two, you got to give number nine a dive too. The embellishment was absurd. You leave yourself open to leave it up to the official to decide. That's all. Yeah, I guess. And if you want to, he fought him at the end. I mean, they fought.

And that's where you just kind of take a number there and say, you know, I'll fight you and I'll challenge you. Yeah. And he did. Like, Max ain't scared, but clearly Bennett's scared clearly bennett's the better fighter bennett's a man significantly bit of a missile out there he's just flying around he's doing stuff he's an effective guy the other question i wanted to have you guys did you know who was under 10 minutes on the least forward core last night under 10 minutes camp was under 10 minutes at 928. Yeah, there's a bit of a concern there too.

Reeves was 740 and Nick Robertson was 915. It was the three guys. I didn't think Robertson was bad last night. It's not that he wasn't bad. It was just he doesn't really lend towards him. A big heavy team like that that battles on the walls. Usefulness is diminished. I think he had a i think he had one or two good quality chances in this slot yeah he's got a shootout got a score on a couple

of those that's your bread and butter it's not to battle off the wall and and knock somebody over you you're in a position where you you're a shooter and you got to score yeah it's you know i'm torn on the robertson thing um and domey a little bit too where it's like you need some guys who can provide surprise offense for you when it's not the main guys you need some guys in your lineup that can do that but that's a chicken and the egg do i need someone that battles off the walls first before i can get to thinking about scoring a goal? Yeah. Well, that was always the debate.

Like, what do you do when you're not scoring? Because how many goals is Robertson going to score if he plays 75 games this year? He's going to score 17 goals. So what are you going to do for us the other, uh-oh, 67, 8 games? You know, so he's still looking for a way to be useful when he's not shooting it in the net. Since the Vancouver game, his ice times are 925, 843, 742, 1240, 932, 915.

Really? Wow. The game doesn't set up well against Florida. Style of plays to have Nick Robertson shine. Yes. My fear is that, trust tree with you guys, no one else is listening, that we witness like the annual three good Nick Robertson games. Yeah. And it's just like back to Nick Robertson.

Like in 2022 when he scored against Dallas in OT. Yeah. You can't bail on him, Sammy. You can't bail on him. And you've started something. You've just got to continue to hopefully bring his stock up a little bit. Okay. Seattle's coming into town tomorrow night.

Yeah. Not the bravest team. They also need offense. They're a little soft. They can't shoot it in the net. Can't shoot it in the net. Right? They're missing some toughness.

So good night for Robertson, you're saying? Good night for Nickbertson you're saying good night for for nick robertson seattle one will trade you will borgen for robertson well they yeah like it anyone in i don't even know what the name you say he runs into people okay or borgen plays defense all right listen they're looking seattle for those type of more more of those guys. More tough guys. Yes. But they also need to score. Yeah. Last year. They're challenged this year. You mentioned that earlier in our shows,

and I thought they'd be fine, but there's some concerns out of Seattle. It's tough when you don't get talent first, which is why I still believe that the Leafs can be a contender. When you have the talent you can figure out pieces around it and grant and structure and defense and all that when you can't score it's just hopeless like there's just no way out of some of these games that's how I feel about Seattle still okay we still have plenty more on the real Kipper and Bourne show as we take a break and then go national we we'll welcome in Frank Cervelli, Hockey Insider,

President of Hockey Content on the Daily Face-Off. And we're starting to discuss names. We want names, Frank! Leafs need help on the blue line. Give us a list. That with Frank. After the break, stick around everybody.

We're just still warming up here on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show.