Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Pumping the Brakes on Buds' Hype

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne, and Sam McKee look back on the Leafs' shocking 6-2 loss to the Columbus Blue Jackets and discuss the sustainability of Berube's demanding style, a familiar lack of accountability, Hildeby's rough night, Robertson's role moving forward, and much more. Later, The Athletic's Josh Kloke (33:19) shares his thoughts on the Leafs' hung-over performance last night, the make-up of the forward lines and how Joseph Woll's standing has changed during his injury absence.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

live on sportsnet 590 the fans sportsnet night uh 360 sportsnet plus the real kipper and born show leaf edition this hour justin bourne sammy mckee derrick brandeo j Jake the Snake Schultz, Toronto Maple Leafs, after a impressive win against Tampa Bay, 24 hours later, lay an egg. Understatement. Lost 6-2 to Columbus. And let me just open it up to you,b first and then you sammy with what was that

you know it's like the reverse of like just when i thought we were out they pull me back in like it's like we suck i just thought i really after six games to talk myself into being like this is a different leaf team galley said it uh shell being like, this is a different Leaf team. Gally said it. Shelly said it. This is a different Leaf team. And last night, it was like, oh, it's the same Leaf team. We didn't make that up. It's the same cast of care.

It was. They're different. Yes. They were looking very different. Yes. Until they didn't. Yeah. And then, you know, last last year they had the reputation for when

the second you heaped praise on them and told them they were great they would find a way to kick you in the somewhere and make you look silly should we be worried about sammy at all a little bit today because he's one of those guys and yeah yes i've had a lot of good things to say about the toronto maple leafs as well but there was not as many as me on occasion in the last little while i've been telling you it's only six games relax it's just a start so yeah where are you today Sammy off of that loss last night I am feeling very dumb but that's a normal day for me that's a normal day for me

did you get duped? I didn't even sniff it out that's the most that is how that is how into the Berube Leafs I am and how much I believe it. I didn't even mention the possibility of a letdown spot on the second half of a back-to-back with the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Like beating the, having maybe their best performance in a regular season game, I can maybe ever remember them. And then following with maybe their most pathetic performance I've ever seen them have in this era, it was a really just, that's a same old Leafs moment. And I am embarrassed, quite frankly. I didn't even mention the possibility. I didn't even sniff it out.

I think that part of what had been labeled same old Leafs was their ability to, again, when it feels up here, they don't, there's that letdown. You kind of felt like Berube would not let them do it. You know, that there would be this different voice, this more intimidating presence that would say, convince them to keep the pedal down, and it just didn't matter who was behind the bench.

They've put a lot of good work in since training camp. And training camp, from all indications, was different with the one-on-one battles. And it had a much different feel. Everything up until going into that game last night had a different feel. You can't take it all away with just one bad loss. Nope, I agree, Kip.

You don't want to do that? No, I don't want to do that. I don't. Okay, good. Because I was having thoughts. But I'm not going to let him off the hook entirely either here. But I just, I think up until going into last night we witnessed with our own eyes what the potential is and what their range could look like when it matters most so we we had

small sample sizes of that i i don't want to take that away from them today no no i think that's important kip so i wrote an article today about is this leafs team different what have we learned sort of thing and it is different you mentioned before the north south game that they had been playing there's lots of stuff in the stats about them breaking the puck go better dumping the puck in more um doing a lot of the things that we said they had to do to win more they are doing those things at the end of the day it is you go as your leaders go as your core goes and i thought last night they stunk out loud i thought matthews and marner their line was gross uh you know i was gonna say to you guys where he came in here that i watched some of the goals back last night and like through the neutral zone and the back check and the sword outs and whatever oh yeah bad as i've ever seen it from

that line um and then that's your leaders you're supposed your guys are supposed to be like so you mentioned uh at the start of training camp or during our couple of our first shows when guys were getting banged up and they were a little bit nicked up here and there that playing with greg brube style may come with consequences in terms of injuries and whatnot. Was last night a consequence of how hard they played on Monday night? Because I don't think I've ever... They played hard Saturday against the Rangers too. I know.

And I never have seen them play as hard as they did on Monday. And maybe it just takes some getting used to for these guys in terms of the level that they need to be at for their coach to be happy. I don't know. Is there anything there i think there's something to be said there for sure in terms of like you know another example and we talked about this about max patch ready that here's a guy that played a certain style his whole career where he's the number one left winger goal scorer and now since training camp he doesn't know where his role is what his fit is and i got i gotta tell you like you're connecting those dots the injury and the physical play i've been impressed with how hard that guy has hit a few people up until this point he ran a

man he ran a man through the glass last night. Great camera angle, by the way. And I joked yesterday that if he would have played like this throughout his whole career, we would have been looking at him in a much different light. He also may have played a lot less hockey games, I think is where you're going with this. Where I'm going with is that it's one thing to start a training camp or first couple of games with this juice and this piss you know, piss and vinegar, but are you able to sustain it?

Can you do it? Have you done it enough times to know when to do it, when not to do it, when to back off next thing, you know, I don't know. He disappeared last night. I didn't third period. He left the game with a apparent upper body injury. Didn't come back for the third. And sounds like from what I've heard, they still don't have an answer on his injury lower body lower body lower body okay mcmahon same thing saw some big hits from you over the over uh the start of the season

now you're going to columbus you played the night before oh you're tired just not it's not right for you going on for you oh horrible yeah horrible like they're down what riley's five one and and holmberg's getting smoked in the neutral zone like let's reverse that and let's have a leaf go and smoke one of those guys just to give them a little bit of a hey we, we're sore losers here. This isn't the same team before. We're up or down. I'm going to smoke you. But that's, no, none of them showed up to do that.

So that's the tricky part is bringing it when you don't feel right. And that's what they may have to learn here moving forward yeah i guess you know some of the it just felt like that game was so over you know for so long that yeah i uh i get your point there that you want the pushback but like the reeves and domey taking dumb penalties and it was like what is that is that that is that what you want? You like that? No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I enjoyed that. I don't want... Just taking a bad penalty isn't enough for me, like off a face-off for Max.

I'd rather him go and do something like he did when they were up against Tampa Bay and came in and helped a teammate out and ended up fighting... Grigonsons. Grigonsons. One thing to keep an eye on with this Leafs team, and I do get the impression that there is some

try to impress the coach sort of thing, but they're the third worst in the league in penalty differential so far. Minus seven. They've taken seven more minors than they've drawn. So they've been shorthanded more than the other team every single game, more or less. So that's something that they typically hadn't done.

I think last year they were about even in penalties taken and drawn. In fact, I know they were minus two. So anyway, something to keep an eye on. Do you happen to know who the best in that was? No, but the worst was Anaheim last year, minus 94. Minus 94 minor penalties compared to how many... Oh my God! That's insane!

But I'll find that answer for you right now. Thank you. Okay, let's go to our first kippers clipper of the day with craig bruby on what he saw last night or didn't see it's really boils down to in the game is you know we i didn't feel like we skated very well tonight they skated through us all night and we didn't win many puck battles tonight. Didn't defend very well tonight. That's what you get. The only thing that was good tonight was the penalty kill. Penalty kill is up to 87%.

By the way, the Devils are plus nine. Nine minors so far. One more. Can we go to Craig on what he said to his team? Yeah, no, I always talk to the team, but they know. We've got to move on from it but at the same time we got a little and you know the frustration that you have right now we got to channel it properly and get ready for the next game okay i again i'm not taking away anything

that they've done to work up until that point of the hockey game. I didn't like Craig Berube last night. Didn't like what he said after. Didn't like the players' comments after. Felt like they all took themselves off the hook last night. And I did not like that. That, to me, was nothing more than another shrug-off loss. It bothered me. And he says, well, they know. No, they don't know take a look just move on take take a look they do they move on quickly they don't move on because it's the same thing like they've lost to lesser teams well that's what i mean they just like turn the page

and all right new day and they don't somebody whether it was Craig last night, whether it was Austin, Mitch, somebody had to kind of look into the camera and say, This is a joke. Like, I'm getting so tired of this. Yeah, you want that from a new team, new year, hasn't happened yet this year. You want them to bring in the past like that? Do we have Austin's comments last night? Before we get to's like you think it was last night was the right time to use your first bullet on a back-to-back with travel last night would have been a good one

you think yes yeah the one thing that you know listen six games in okay tired don't go to tired yeah please don't don't It's too early for me. Yep. Okay? It's the first back-to-back. You're not flying to middle America. You didn't have to go to California. You got on a plane and flew an hour and change.

Yep. New Tampa, three and four, pooped the bed against Toronto. Did they ever. They went into New Jersey, found a way to win. They didn't use back-to-back as an excuse. It's funny you mention other teams because part of me is like, okay, don't overreact to this Leafs game because look at the Atlantic Division. Last night, Boston loses by four goals too.

Florida loses by four goals too. I understand the teams they played were a little bit better, but they weren't on a back-to-back. So it's like, my point is, good teams lose by four. You have a game where you go, ah, we suck tonight, and you move on, but you're lumping it in with the greater picture of this group. The mindset of, again, being in a position where you go in, you should have a better effort if not win

and it didn't show up for 60 minutes and to all collectively just look at each other and say flush it down the toilet and let's move on and no did you want the matthews your worst against columbus should be a close game should be a close game game. You're absolutely right. Let's listen to Austin. Neutral zone was the autobahn for them tonight. You know, they were just coming in, flying through, and we didn't have very good gaps, very good angles. You know, it didn't transition very well. And, you know, on nights where the puck's bobbling,

you're fighting it a little bit. Got to simplify it. But like I said, just from the start, it just seemed like they were much more prepared and um doubted than us okay i mean all right so he gave us a a recap the autobahn we yeah i mean it was the autobahn okay but it's pretty funny here comes justin danforth you know it wasn't exactly dylan larkin don't want funny austin yeah i know i don't want funny austin i want captain austin yeah i want i don't know he's trying to be funny i want to feel something different because that letter is on your jersey right now so even simply saying

i'm tired of this we this is unacceptable okay No one's saying that it's guaranteed night. We must win. But we got to be better than that six games into the season. I wonder if that's a lesson for him in that you can't play like he played like that and then call out your team. He didn't play well enough to get to say anything. He was. Again, say something a little different.

It starts with me. That's enough to get to say anything. He was. Again, say something a little different. Okay. It starts with me. That's all he needed to say. And then go into the Autobahn and say whatever. But say, I got to be better. That's unacceptable. Because all I got was the same old kind of shrug it off and let's move on and flush it down the toilet. To me, it's not the 60 minutes.

It's just the mindset of where you are. And again, I'm not saying that you gave all your effort since you started training camp back last night, but you gave them something. Yeah, I think you certainly gave up the right to have people feel like you're a different group. It still comes down to how this core performs yeah that was still going to be the core when it comes down to playoffs

and it's still going to come down to them like i do think that it is a you know one of a lot of games that's going to play in the regular season yeah but i will say that it was definitely a wake up call to the fan base yeah and hopefully to the to the team. Yeah, I mean, I'm just talking, like, a lot of the texts and conversations and things that were getting sent to me while I was doing Leafs talk and all this stuff, there was a lot of same old Leafs talk, which wasn't really happening until last night,

so it just shows how fragile maybe this fan base is. But last night was a real wake-up call for everybody, I think. Yeah. I mean... Okay, where do you want to go? Youup call for everybody, I think. Yeah. I mean. Okay. Where do you want to go? You want to forward, defense, goaltending? It doesn't look like it looks like if Dennis Hildeby is average. I thought, yes, you're right.

It was horrible goaltending. But, I mean, top to yeah they he had no help either no we got to a clip from barubi on hill to view let's listen to clip four yeah it'd be fine i mean he's young you know he that's it goes like that sometimes that's part of learning to be a pro and dealing with things ups and downs like that. Yes. Now get him down to the Marlies as fast as you can. So, you know, it is tough, and he didn't look very good last night. But, you know, in the second half of back-to-back,

often you start slow. And how many times you've watched over your life watching a hockey game that your second NHL-caliber goalie is in the net in the second half of back-to-back, bails you out a couple of times in the first period, you get your legs and you get into a game. Like I really do have a,

I know he's a professional athlete and he's a young goalie, but like he's their third, fourth string goalie called into action here because your starting goalie that you gave $11 million to has disappeared before the season starts. And it's just every day we're getting an update. Oh, he's getting close. He's getting close. Well, it's almost like the end of October here,

and we're still getting close. Remember he missed the first start due to tightness. Yeah. It was tightness two and a half weeks ago. I am getting a little frustrated with this, because sure, he wasn't great last night, and they needed him to be better, and he was good against the Devils,

but you would have liked that to be Stoller's wall, because you have a much better chance to win the game if you have one of your NHL-caliber goaliesies like you got to get in some games here big picture sure sam but it's also this is a guy who's going to play games your third stringer is going to play games this year last year martin jones played 10 games or more didn't he play quite a anyway i think he played 19 games he was great for that you know and and they've had pretty decent third stringers and so it's a little concerning that he went up against Columbus. The guy shot it through him.

First shot attempt. There's a couple rebounds in there, but mostly just first shot. Yeah, he's just, he was just not ready. They weren't ready. He's had a wonderful experience up until this point. A lot off the rush, but yeah. Right? But it's, you don't want to,

you don't want to put him in another position like that. So if Joseph Wall is ready to back up, then put him on the bench tomorrow night. Put him on the bench. You're not going to play? No. Play-play? No. What do you mean no?

I can't come off that game last night and put Joseph Wall in tomorrow night or Saturday night. Or Saturday night. Or Saturday night. Or Saturday night. Stole ours. When he's ready, they've got to get him back in the mix here. He's got to play hockey. You know when I'm putting him in?

After Boston. Is it Boston Saturday? Winnipeg. The team that hasn't lost yet? Yes, the team that hasn't lost yet. They go to Winnipeg on Monday. So why wouldn't you put them in there? Just remind me.

Dig in on Thursday. Because I had Steve Aliquette tell me that my guy's the best goalie in the league right now. Okay. That's why. Okay. You want to win. Anything Stolarz gives you the best chance to win. 100%.

So it's just a riding the hot hand as opposed to getting wall. Yes. I got a guy feeling really good right now that I just rested, and it cost me two points. Yep. I ain't giving another two points away. It's totally fair, and I like it. I like it too. You know, this guy has swooped in here, and when you're, like I said,

starting goalie disappears before the start of the season, he's coming giving you literally the best goal tending in the nhl should probably reward it but on the other hand i do think then saturday you go back to wall assuming stolarz gets it gets you a win on thursday then you say i don't care if it's saturday and it's the boston bruins we play the bruins they're in our league and you play in toronto it's a high stakes sure they're all high stakes and go play the team that keeps knocking us out. Yeah. There's another way of going in there and sending a message that we are different.

That's, that's the way I'll look at it. And then starting Monday, you hit the road. You've got Winnipeg, Seattle. You come back home for Seattle, but then you go back on the road, St. Louis, Minnesota.

Plenty of hockey there to get Joseph Wall in there. Let's see if Bruby excuses it. We got lots of people to talk about. Let's just see if Bruby excuses the fatigue thing as a factor. Clip five, please. How much does fatigue factor into a performance like that? Well, you know, that's an excuse though, isn't it? Right.

Right, so I'm not going there. Not enough for you. Good for him. Because I didn't go there today. Yeah. I did. Yeah. I was going to do.

That's okay. I mean, it's undeniably a factor in why their performance was worse. It doesn't mean it's okay to lose because of sort of thing, but it's a factor. Yeah. So a number of players that had concerning performances i mentioned the top guys yeah but for me holmberg has looked like an american hockey league player for a number of games in a row good um ekman

larson had his worst game yet as a leaf and i'm immediately worried people are going to start making him so the tan of tan of yeah and morgan riley i think has been sneaky not great um you know everyone's like what's riley gonna turn into a tan of it's like has he been better with no it's just i just i don't notice it less need way more out of morgan like he's seven and a half million he's supposed to be one of the core guys too you know i think we kind of let him off the hook sometimes on this show. I think it was the fourth goal where it's a neutral zone cross-ice pass. He's there with Marchenko. And Marchenko just blows right by him and gets a great quality shot. That leads to Monaghan's fourth goal.

Game over. It's like, where's your angle? Where's your gap? Where's... He struggles there. he backs way off oh my gosh that's not seven and a half million dollar value there but you know what's hard to do get good gaps this is what it's like effort and discipline it's hard to have a good gap you have to get up with the rush come back with the rush like it's instead of just waiting for

it lazily he's got to close that off that there's no shot. If it is, it's incredibly weak. You can't get that much off a shot at that angle. No back pressure, which you praised tons yesterday. No back pressure. But Riley, I mean, his calling card would be his skating. You would think that that would be something that he, you know, would be a strength for him.

And it just never really has been. No, you're right. He does back off a little bit more than I would like him to typically. You know, when he is lazier, like last night, it can be really evident sometimes. God, that OEL pizza was just hot and fresh. It didn't have to end up as a goal. No, it didn't. Like, his OEL then kind of came over to the puck side.

Marner was on the puck side. Like, Marner's trying to tell him, like, hey, there's a guy in your lane over there. We don't need you over here. It's too late. Need a save there. Yeah. Need a save.

Yeah. Big juicy rebound there. Anyway. The lines concerning Tavares et al. Continuing. Hucking penalty leads to not being in position yeah we've seen a few more of those penalties for sure i mean he is it's a real concern take him off the power play and like it's time to put matthew nyes there yeah you're you're ready to make the move i am

ready to make the move it's gonna get harder here for tavarez because he obviously can still finish and he's still got great hockey sense and how can you utilize him it feels like more and more you're gonna have to protect him in this last year of his deal which makes you wonder about the next people are like yeah like well you know it'd be a the next. People are like, yeah, like, well, you know, it would be a discount next deal. It's like, sure you want it? No. Anyway.

Just seems to me like the things that he's been accustomed to doing over the course of his career, which is handling the puck and shooting it in good quality areas is kind of dried up for him. Yeah. And I don't know where you go to try to enhance the things that he's still good at. And you make a very valid point. The guy can still shoot it in the net.

He can still find loose pucks in a radius and make some quality plays. But they are far and fewer than we've seen in the past. I mean, he set up the 6-1 goal, 6-2 goal. Nice finish from Robertson, who it was predicted on the show would score. Yeah. Did you make anybody money? Yeah.

I made myself money. I actually got a lot of messages from people being like thanks for the money You cheered on that goal I actually had a laugh I was like that was the most vintage time for Robertson to score You and J.D. had some nicknames?

The one that's really mean No Stakes Nick No Stakes Nick When there's no stakes no Nick. No stakes, Nick. It's very, it's very. When there's no stakes, no one is more likely to score. Like I saw somebody. Columbus down five in the third. I don't know who it was.

I saw a set of tweets. It was a picture of Gretzky like skating fast. And it's like Nick Robertson in a blowout. And I was like, oh, that's tough. So if you get a lot more efforts out of the team in the first six games. You could buy some time for Nick Robertson. Yeah. By the way, it was a great goal.

Beautiful goal. Okay. Meaningless goal. Beautiful. Please. Look who you're talking to. I know it was meaningless, but it was a beautiful goal.

Okay. You can not hide them, but you could protect them. Shelter them. But if it's going to look more like last night, I'm not sure. What's last night, bad? Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't know specifically you meant him. Obviously, I know last night was bad. Can you keep Nick Robertson in the lineup if it doesn't look like you're playing like you played versus Tampa? Yeah. I think he's been better than his stats reflect um i i don't think he's he's not a concern for me no i shouldn't say he's not a concern he's on my watch list for sure but he's not uh anywhere near the top of importance or people i think need to come out so you know bernie and i mentioned this a little bit when

we were at her desk but yeah like you know all of a sudden mentioned this a little bit when we were sitting at her desk, but yeah, like, you know, all of a sudden here after one loss, which is classic sports radio thing to do, but you look at Pat Shreddy's hurt now. And I mean, you know, maybe some day-to-day conversation out there. We don't know really what it is.

He's hurt. Holmberg's underperforming. Robertson has one goal and a blowout. Tavares is not like, you know, we talked about the depth of this team and how the bottom half of the lineup is looking so good and the fourth line.

But there isn't the depth at center. No, I just mean all of a sudden you're like, oh boy, David Camp sits out last night. Well, and that's a natural centerman who could take draws. It is a reminder that you can't just ship this guy out of town because you want to pay someone 500 grand less. It shouldn't go unnoticed or not mentioned that David Kampf, they felt comfortable enough to keep him out of the lineup.

He is a natural centerman. They're trying to figure out Max's short and long-term projections as a centerman. They're trying to do the same thing with holmberg yet they took away the guy that is the most natural at that position last night yeah and like i got no problem with it you know you're playing columbus you should be able to take a fourth line center it was a problem it was a problem but i got no problem going into the game saying look we can't be columbus without david camp we're probably too close to the margins here anyway.

So I don't mind him being out, but it definitely was noticeable last night. Max Domi's kind of chunky from I think you should leave. What's your thing? You got to figure out what your thing is. Are you, is he going to be a center? The second line guy is going to be a power play guy. Camp isn't playing much.

Like he's like low minutes. He's not a Ruby guy. Apparently his high highest of the year is 1228. And he actually, a couple years ago when I looked at this, he was fifth in average ice time per game behind the big four. Like Keith used him a lot. For forwards, right? Yeah.

The fourth line didn't look very good either. Let me stop this conversation. Did anyone, and I'm not being sarcastic, did anyone look good? No. Is there anyone you liked? No. No, correct.

Anyone? Was McCabe okay? I did like when Reeves jumped in on whoever hit Holmberg. I did like that. So I'll give Reeves a pass. That was nice. Yeah, okay. You know, it's just,

I like when teams are pissed that they're losing. And the Leafs have been so passive when they're losing. Yeah, but he played 10 minutes of hockey. I mean, boy, Holmberg. We talk about eligibility hit yesterday. Has anyone ever skated into the trolley tracks worse than him there? Yes, Justin Barron.

Yeah, Barron. I was like, trying to find a way to tiptoe around that on air last night. You know, because Barron got badly hurt. And so you don't want to be insensitive. But like, you can't skate at Jacob Truba. And neither can Holmberg on that play.

No. But at least, yeah. I mean, Holmberg's 220 pounds or something in person. So that helps him a bit. Yeah. Well, McCabe had the bad pinch. And then it was followed up by another bad pinch by max domi which led to one of the goals way too many bad pinches

way too many even like the sixth goal ekman larson did we jinx them did i by mentioning like we don't see odd man rushes we don't see bad pinches this year uh what else did i say all great back pressure back pressure from the neutral zone yeah literally everything says it was the autobahn it was columbus there ain't no autobahn in columbus i mean yeah it was like the roof caved in on yeah everything that we spoke about so positively yeah it was pretty remarkable Yeah, it was pretty remarkable. Quite honestly, it was pretty remarkable. When people say same old Leafs, that is same old Leafs. The second

you believe, they're like, pull out the tablecloth. I did like Nize's goal. That was a very nice goal. Yeah, took the puck shot. It was really nice. He's getting better. Actually, maybe Nize is okay. Yeah, that's maybe a conversation for a different day, but the contract I worry about, maybe not Marner.

Maybe him. And Myrtle had an article that McCabe deal is getting close. Please tell me you're not sweating over Matthew Nize. I'm not sweating, but I think about it when I watch him improve every single game. But you just told me it's... Like, you're thinking about it more so than Marner's. I mean, everything I've read about Marner. He's going nowhere.

What do you think about... Don't worry about it. Jake Neighbors in St. Louis last year... Jake Neighbors in St. Louis just signed two times 3.75. He scored 27 times last year. Yeah, but that's a team that's scared

to go longer and deeper because you're not sure what you're paying for just yet. Right. And you're sure that Nyes is... I mean, I'm sure. Oh, listen, if you want to go young prospect like Slavkoski, which is what, eight times eight? Is that what he got, eight times eight?

Is that what he got? He did get a long one. I don't know if it was eight times eight. I mean, leafs have the option of doing that with matthew nye's now but why eight i don't know what is it well slavkovsky is eight times 7.6 yeah thank you yeah close enough yeah 60.8 million but slavkovsky was the first overall pick buddy listen this is the way the agents think now. Oh my God. We're not doing it. Okay, let's go to break. We're not doing nines. No, no. You're talking about now. What is the

difference between Slavkoski's value to Montreal's and Matthew Nye's right now as the top? Slavkoski slipped down a massive ceiling? I don't care. No. So is Nye's. They're both the number one wingers on their respective hockey clubs. Yeah.

One of them is the first overall pick who's 6'4 and still coming into it. Nize is 32. He's not. No, he's not. But he's a couple years older than him. Yeah. 23? He's 22, actually.

22. 22. He's 22. And plays at 235, 240. So you think slavkovsky and nizer comparables what are we doing right now i'm telling you if you want to skip the the process and go straight to long term that's the type of contract matthew nize would want all right well let's hit a bridge and let's hit a break because we gotta get to josh cloak all right you guys got me fired up today i love it okay i like when you're mad josh cloak all right you guys got me fired up today oh yeah i love it okay

i like when you're mad josh cloak coming up after okay plenty he'll he'll calm us all down yeah yeah right all right that more when we return to real kipper and born hey it's ben ennis and i'm brent cunning we got you covered on all things leafs rafters and blue jays every weekday morning six to nine it's the fan morning show sportsnet 590 the fan and wherever you get your podcasts nick caprio's justin bourne sammy mckee leaf edition hour the real kipper and bourne show let's welcome in joshua cloak leaf writer for the athletic josh will calm us all down here.

He's not even on a patio having a beer like he used to be in our old interviews. Josh, what's going on, man? Yeah, that's old cloak. Old cloak would have been on a patio. And it's a beautiful day. You're right. You're making me feel bad now. Was that game by the Leafs enough to make you want to drink last night?

For some, I'm sure. But, like, wasn't it expected? Am I the only one that thought, like, that kind of game was expected? You come off, like, the best game, you know, the Leafs have played all season. And, like, frankly, like, one of the most complete performances this kind of team has shown over the past few seasons. And, like, Craig Berube hockey is demanding.

And I imagine it's exhausting watching their practices, you know, watching the way that they play, watching the way that they forecheck, watching the way that they play physically. Like, the letdown is real. It sounds obvious, but, like, didn't they just look, like, a bit hungover to you? And I'm sure they weren't,, but like, didn't they just look like a bit hungover to you? And I'm sure they weren't, but like, didn't,

didn't they just look like that slow, lethargic? And I think that's just bound to happen when you put everything into a game that I think really mattered, a performance that really mattered on Monday. You combine it with a flight, they get in late. I don't know. I guess I am calming you down because to me it was expected but like isn't that depressing like isn't that you know going into this year with a new coach i would totally be on board with you if it was the same coach as

last year we go this is always how it goes with this team wasn't it depressing if you're a least fan that it was supposed to be different but it wasn't it was just the same yeah I I hear you on that one I guess it's just a matter of like like it's still so early in the season and like I'm not a a sports science dude but I imagine that it just takes longer for your bodies to acclimatize to let's just like the frankly the heightened demands that i think come the heightened physical demands that i think come with playing craig berube hockey and like you know maybe come the the dog days of of january your bodies are used to this and you're used to the travel and you're you you just i i just think there was frankly it felt like an adrenaline letdown um because again like

I can tell you watching Craig Berube practices every practice they're short but boy are they intense right they're they're they're fiery you see guys their their faces just look longer after practices um especially some of the younger guys I think they're just um they're physically draining um and it's a long i i understand there's these these are going to sound like excuses but it's a longish flight like it's not ottawa it's not detroit um so i don't know am i am i not panicking enough like i'm not i'm not that i'm not, I'm not that bothered by it because, like, frankly, if you're the Leafs, wouldn't you rather show that you can beat Tampa

than, like, kind of, I don't know, squeak by Columbus? I don't know. Am I being too rational here? We're talking to Joshua Cloak, Leaf writer for The Athletic. So I think your words could carry a lot of weight if in fact that they can bounce back and have a very good effort against the st louis blues um yeah and then that might have the biggest impact on on what and how we feel uh 48 hours or 72 hours after that dreadful game against Columbus.

So how much stock do you put into tomorrow night versus St. Louis for you? Yeah, you're right. I do put a lot to that. I put a lot as well into the lineup choices. Like, isn't that one of the more interesting kind of storylines coming out of this early season is the fact that like for so long this team was so tight up against the cap that they were dressing the same guys um that there was very little flexibility now they're in a place where they can like literally like

last night they had 6.1 million dollars in the press box a 6.1 million million cap it in the press box last night. That's fascinating to me, right? Because the whole plan for this team coming into the season was load the team up, give Craig Brube lots of options to create a competitive kind of camp and a competitive team, and we saw that, right? Max Pacioretty comes out of the lineup, and then he comes back in, and he scores, right? That's what you want. But what you really want to see is the guys that come out of the lineup respond.

I guess I'm just kind of projecting forward here. Like, it's one thing to think about the response to St. Louis, but, man, I really think about the fact that, like, 20 games into the season, you can't keep $6 million in the press box. And I know it's not like for like, but $6 million could probably, you know, in a perfect world, get you that third line center that you need, like that forward help that you need. That's what I really want to see. Like, it's one thing to say, yeah,

how is David Kemp going to respond when theoretically he gets back in the lineup? How is Timothy Lilligren going to look when he, you know, could get back in the lineup? But how is this going to play out eventually? Because you can't keep $6 million in the press box every night, right? Isn't it seven, by the way? No, it is.

I got back in the napkin math here, and it's 6.1. 6.175. Yeah, I know. Yeah, and it's 6.1. 6.175. This particular, yeah, I know, yeah. But you're right. It's Lilligren at $3 million, Kampf at 2.4, and Yarncroft at 2. Are we not camping and counting Joe Wall? I had Philippe Myers. I just had the guys in the box last night.

Okay, all right. So, yeah, they're not available, but, you know, we'll see when yarn croc is available because i mean to your to your point about lineup choices uh you know yarn croc where is he in in your short term or long term we haven't even talked about connor doer like there's so many players here that i i really don't know what that top 12 looks like I don't know if they look yet and I get again I get the idea create competition create demand right create you know a sense of urgency in players that that heightens the competitiveness that like I'm sure they're thinking maybe wasn't

there in years past but at some point you're gonna have to move guys and you're just not at that point in the year where you can move players really easily so i i don't know i think there's some really hard decisions that are going to have to be made and injuries happen as well right we get that um but i just i i i wonder i i really wonder what it's going to look like. That's going to be a huge story because guys do respond. That's what's interesting to me about Craig Brubais. Like Bobby McMahon kind of gets called out in preseason. He's looked fantastic, right?

Nick Robertson scores his first goal. I think he hasn't gotten the luck, but I think he's looked good. It wouldn't surprise me if David Kemp plays really well, right, assuming he gets in tomorrow. But you're kind of punting these big, big decisions on who gets in, who gets out, because you can't – they're going to be over the cap at some point, and something's got to give here. Got all these names. It's like the Leafs need a really nice pair of shoes to go to a ball, and they've got instead 10 bad pairs of shoes. And they're like, God, all these names. It's like the Leafs need like a really nice pair of shoes to go to a ball

and they've got instead 10 bad pairs of shoes. And they're like, we have like all these guys, all these pairs of shoes. It's like, we just get like a good viable third line center.

Sorry, that was a very weird analogy. I do want to get... No, I liked it. That was good. I do want to get to the Joseph Wall. He is healthy, not healthy. You know, how has his position and standing on this team changed since we opened camp with him everyone saying he's there 1a

is it that his standing has changed or anthony still arts well that would change his standing yeah yeah i i mean has he not been there i don't know has he not been their, I don't know, has he not been their best player so far this season? Yeah. And, again, that sense of competition and that sense of, like, let's get players pushing for lineup spots, nothing should be guaranteed, now that applies to Joseph Wall. I'm still a Joseph Wall backer.

I do think that there's been a lot of bad luck with his injuries. I don't think he's injury prone. And I think we've also seen in this market, it doesn't take long for players. If you do put the injury prone tag on him, it doesn't take long to shed that, right? We were talking about Nick Robertson a year ago as being injury prone. We're not having that conversation about him anymore so that the narrative around a player

can change really quickly um i think the leafs still believe in joseph wall's upside and his potential in a very real way um there's there's obvious frustration about the fact that that he continues to get hurt. But I don't think it's for lack of, you know, taking care of his body. I don't think there's any blame. I don't know. The schedules get so jammed the beginning of the season. You know, I was kind of looking at my own travel schedule for December,

and I'm like, they play 15 games in 30 days in December. Wow. They're going to need Joseph Wall. Dennis Hildeby, not on him last night, but you're still not at a point. He might be the number three, but you're still not at a point where you're like, yeah, we could probably give him, you know, a few games here. I think Joe Wall is still a very important piece of this organization. Wouldn't surprise me to see, you know, if he plays a lot next week

because, you know, you also don't want to burn out Anthony Stilarts. But we have to give credit to him, Stilarts. He's been far better than expected. But I really believe, I believe in Joseph Wall, and I think the leafs really do believe in him still as well so i gave my uh my two cents on where i thought where joseph wall could come in and play in the next three games uh short term st louis tomorrow night boston saturday night winnipeg monday night for the leafs. Where do you see Joseph Wall coming in?

Winnipeg. That was a long pause, but I would think Winnipeg. I think Stilarts has deserved the chance to do Boston, right, which we've all had circled on the calendar as, you know, the game of the early season. The St. Louis one makes a little bit of sense, given that he's a St. Louis guy. Maybe that's something that maybe the past coaching group

would have cared about a little bit more, but no. Is he ready to play if they give him the nod? Well, that's why today being an off day was kind of crucial. I wouldn't surprise me if he skated in full today. I suspect he'll be ready to go tomorrow as a backup. I think the Leafs are going to be cautious with him. So that's why Winnipeg is the one that makes a lot of sense to me. Because Stilard's had the day off, he had the last game off he's going to be ready to

go against st louis he's deserved the chance to play against the best in boston a game that you know that like given what they did against tampa they're going to be up for for that game on saturday night against boston and that just sets up for still arts you know deserving then a break against winnipeg and and that's the game that I think Joe Wall comes back for. Josh, great stuff, man. Thanks for doing this. Next time I'll have a beer, I promise. Thanks, buddy.

Appreciate your time. Yeah. That's Joshua Cloak from The Athletic, covers the Leafs. You know what's fresh on my mind is Joseph Wall came back last year, right, against Boston on a Saturday night and it was like he wasn't ready and they were like yeah give him the game I believe I was probably saying that too

and I think they lit him up if I'm not mistaken at least they lost I don't feel like I hear you now no okay I'll talk to Nick oh I'm back he's played so much hockey in december he just brought that up a lot yeah it's insane how much they play they also got a factor in the crammed season because

of the four nations tournament yep and hey uh i just want to add to that bruins thing remember yesterday's uh value saying he thinks they they kind of stink he thinks they could miss playoff and then they got smoked by the freds nine seconds later uh god i'd love that just suck three three and one minus three gold differential just be bad i'm not saying bad. I don't know what the... The numbers are bad. The underlying numbers are ugly. Like, they look like... Sorting this right now,

they're in a clump at the bottom left of my... With the bad teams. Chicago, Philly, San Jose. Yeah. And we still haven't seen Brad Marchand at his best, and he's getting up there as well. And hey, we also met, he was picked for Canada already, Marchand.

He's one of the guys that they picked. He might be their 15th best forward if he doesn't figure it out here. That is interesting. Yeah, he was one of the original core guy. He's picked. It was him and Braden Point and Makar and McKinnon. Sidney Crosby probably involved. Crosby's probably in there.

David's probably involved as well. But yeah, Marchand is on the team. Yeah, it was quite the visual of Montgomery. Giving it to him. Giving it to him over a turnover that cost them a win. So anyway, that's just a random thing to keep an eye on that was on my mind. All right, so listen,

it really just comes back to a good win tomorrow night for the Leafs, and they get back on track, and it looks a lot more like it did against Tampa Bay than it did against Columbus, and everything's back to normal Sammy for you. Yeah well it would color the Columbus game differently if they came out and were awesome again.

Much like the Leafs playing against Sheldon Keefe. Sure there's some boys in that Blues team that are going to be playing pretty hard on Thursday. Someone's got to put a bell on Kyrou to They've had a good start to the year. They've played really well and Broberg's been good for them since they signed him. They've had a good start to the year. They've played really well, and Broberg's been good for them since they signed him. They've had a good start to the season.

Thomas got hurt, though. He did. IR. Or LTIR. He's long-term. Broken bone or something? That's not good for them. But I'm just saying,

they're going to be up for that matchup. Toronto, half the team's from Toronto, as usual. Former coach who... It's going to be a big test release. Unless Jordan Binnington's really bad, but who knows? All right. Hope he's not, as usual. Former coach who... It's going to be a big test release. Unless Jordan Binnington is really bad, but who knows? All right. Hope he's not, kind of. Yeah, we need him.

We'll have plenty on St. Louis tomorrow. But in the meantime, do not go away. As we go national here on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show, we'll welcome in David Amber. He's waiting outside the studio door. Since like 6 a.m., I think. That's how badly he wants to get on this show. First time of the year. Alright, David Amber,

studio host, Hockey Night in Canada, NHL on Sportsnet, coming up next. We'll see you next time.