Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Pushing the Panic Button?

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start the week with their concern levels after the Leafs' loss on Saturday, dropping their fourth straight. They get into the 6-4 loss against the Sabres, the load on the top d-pairs in wake of injuries and the Core 4's defensive play. Then, reacting to the Leafs' roster moves as they call on Nick Robertson from the Marlies, what it would cost them to get a significant upgrade on the blue line and what line changes the team should make to turn things around. Finally, they tee up tonight's spot for the Leafs against the Lightning.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

welcome back into the real kipper and born show wherever you are we're glad you're aboard we are on sports at 590 sports at 360 and sports that plus from 4 to 6 p.m and remember you can always download our show wherever you get your pod. Give us a text at 590-590, and we'll see if they're Sam-worthy to make it on air. I'm Nick Kiprios. He's Justin Bourne. Here's Sammy McKee. Connor Lamont in for Derek Brandeo.

And you know what? Just shout out to Connor. A little bit of bright energy on the world's worst day. I appreciated him giving us a little pep there. It sucks out. Well, clocks went back, right? Yeah. So is that an automatic?

Does that mean the sun dies? Yeah, because it does not rise anymore. It's like we're in Finland and it's dark all the time. But I did that in Anchorage, Alaska. It's bleak. I often... Is it like this every day? Yes, it is.

I've often said that my least favorite day of the year is when the clocks go back because it's just, it's over. Like, it's over. It's time for depression. You know, no golf, no outdoor activities. In a month, the days start getting longer, and off we go again. So we're glad Connor Lamont is on board.

Jen Rolnick is with us as well. Derek, healthy scratch, or is he on the IR? You know what? We just haven't been seeing enough contribution from the lower parts of the lineup, and we just thought getting in some fresh blood, some new energy might do us some good. Yeah.

Sometimes it just rejuvenates a lineup a bit. I just took the day off. I mean, I always think he's a maintenance day. Can the Leafs follow that? Is that a recipe to change things up? They lose their fourth game in a row. This time, six,

four to the Buffalo Sabres. And guys, not to hit any panic button here, but this is tonight going into their 12th game of the season, not five or six. Yeah. Are you looking at me to hit the panic button? Well, I'm just trying to calm you down before.

We're really into this Leaf Edition hour here, Sammy. I'm trying to already calm you down a little bit. Yeah, you know, you don't want to go too big picture right away, but we can talk about Saturday and maybe get into it. But yeah, I would say I'm heading towards a button. Thursday night, of course, very emotional game, except on the ice for the Leafs, but emotional for Leaf Nation. Bruins.

Right? Yeah. So you can't go back and ask for a mulligan to play the Boston Bruins again and get Marchand in a situation where he may have slipped, let it slip away. But sure enough, you can come out at home Saturday night with maybe some of the emotion and channel it in a proper way against a team that you should be better than.

Yeah, Buffalo on a back-to-back third and four nights. channel it in a proper way against a team that you should be better than. Yeah, Buffalo on a back-to-back third and four nights. You've just had a frustrating night. Hockey night in Canada. This is a good spot for the Leafs to shine. Your team's been called out. Yes. Everything is being questioned about, you know,

what's at the core of this team. And yeah, boy. Last week, Sam, I know we're going to get to bigger pitch stuff later, but last week you were like, we're starting to get worried about, you know, this team and yeah boy uh last week sam i know we're gonna get to bigger pitch stuff later but last week you're like we're starting to get worried about you know this team whatever yeah we're there um i think the sabers did a good job of they obviously know what the storylines around this team are i thought the sabers did a pretty good job of not giving them anything to respond to but they played a pretty quiet road game they They did well, but yeah, it was upsetting. Okay, we've got plenty of thoughts on Saturday night, but let's just start with our first Kippers Clipper

with Sheldon Keefe on his overview of the game. To me, there's two different stories in the game. I thought in the first and second period, we made mistakes that they counted on, which is what they do, probably better than anybody in the NHL. You make mistakes, they counter on you. Score off the rush and breakaways, just like they did tonight. In the third period, partially for the way the game was going to this point,

but the third period was the most exhausted I've seen a core of defensemen in my time in this league. So we really just couldn't get going. We couldn't skate. We couldn't make a pass. Couldn't think. It was just too much for our D tonight. Okay.

Thanks for joining us, everybody. I think Sheldon just... On the most depressing day of the year. That matched the no sun out there. Oh, my God. That did. Okay, I think he covered it. I don't even think we have anything else to say.

I mean, mistakes, you counter off with them, odd rushes breakaways okay that's that's that was it in a nutshell yeah that's six four was so flattering to the leafs it was it was extremely flattering um i tweeted after the game just some stats about um you know the dominance that buffalo carried in terms of slot shots slot slot shots, rush chances, rebound chances, name it. Buffalo absolutely carried the play, 2-1, 3-1, sometimes 4-1 in those areas. But yeah, I mean, they didn't play LeJoy much at all. He played four minutes and 54 seconds,

including blowing a coverage for a goal against. After that, 12 minutes for Legasins. He had four guys who played the whole game. Klingberg played 25 minutes so yeah they geo's up over 22 minutes yeah d's in the tough spot and it looked like it can you imagine your team being like almost that desperate that you got to go to geo again and say i need 22 minutes out of your 40 year old-old legs? Buddy, you need to go to Klingberg 25 minutes. That's way worse. Klingberg has done nothing but give up goals against for a month.

25 minutes for this guy. I mean, it really speaks to, to me, this is a GM question, not a coach thing. Basically, he keeps saying, I can't use the other two guys you've given me what else do you got okay let's go to uh a john klingberg clip because we're on the subject here on what he thinks he needs to do tonight against a tampa bay lightning i want to get more shot at pants i want to get more involved offensively but at the same time like what i struggled with before is uh trying to do too much and the game, and I don't think I have done that. But at the same time, I have to be wise with when I'm taking the shots,

not have them blocked, get more involved in the also with maybe give and go and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it will come. It's just a matter of getting more comfortable with it and getting that – see the different situation where you can do it and read off the other people on the ice. He thinks he needs to be doing more offensively. Yeah, you know what he says?

I'm going to fall into the same trap that I've started the season with, and that's I'm going to maintain all the million thoughts in my head. That's what I heard. I got to do this, this, this, this, and this, and it's only going to, I think, add to the confusion. It's the golf swing where you're like, okay, got to bring it back straight away, keep your hips in, T's in the left pocket. Got to turn your head still.

Turn that left shoulder. He needs the Kevin Costner tin cup paraphernalia. Let's just start with hitting it flush before we worry about the extra movements. Center of the club face, John. Let's just start with contact. Center of the club face. That's all you heard there. Oh, it's so much.

And this kind of, I think, is a bigger reflection of the team right now where they're just trying to do everything great, and they do nothing great. Well, and that's in Boston. We heard Keefe say, I benched Pertuzzi because we had a very simple game plan. He wasn't playing simple, right? He tried to force pucks into traffic, and we've seen Domi try to do that. And it's

hard i think when you're not having offensive success to accept you need to simplify to to zoom in on something that clingberg did in that game that's made me as mad as i've been all year is it the block shot before the empty netter correct okay where he talks about i mean when keith's clip they're talking about how tired everybody is maybe that plays into it he just got tired brain he can't think what to do. But there's a minute left. They have all their good players in the ice. They have possession.

Completely fine. And there's a ton of guys in the ice. The net's empty. There's 11 guys out there. And he tries to filter one through. There's four guys in the lane. And there's like three Hall of Famers or whatever you think the Leafs have. Matthews is wide open on the low flank.

Just put the puck down there. Get it down. What? I was just so mad about that. It's tired brain that's trying to do too much, and he's telling me that he's going to shoot more? Yeah. But that's an at 5-4 thing that happens.

How do you even end up there against Buffalo? Do you have an overview for us? Yeah. My overview is just I hate the way they play hockey. Oh, wow. I do. I do. I was at the game last night.

On Saturday? And I hate the way they play right now. To me, I went to the game Saturday night. It's as if they rented the ice for an hour and invited 18,000 people to come and watch it. And they play like they rented the ice for an hour. They just want to play their own way. And they're not committed to certain things that has to include discipline in your game.

And they don't want to go there. No. And everything they do from their inability to not give up odd-man rushes, again, Buffalo scores the tying goal late in the first period of the power play goal okay now you're into about a minute and a half and uh it's Tavares's line with uh Willie and Bertuzzi I think and I don't know if you remember that odd man rush they gave up with about a minute to go with with Tage Thompson, who toe-dragged it and almost buried one again. But I get it that you may be thinking,

hey, let's sneak another goal in and make it 2-1, and we go into the first intermission up, and we've changed the momentum and all of that. But it can't go from gambling that to giving up 180-foot 2-on-1, where four guys are caught on one side yeah that to me has to clean up in a hurry here yeah and i think that's totally fine as an observation about like this leafs group um because willie and jt throughout their careers they have moments like that where they think about offense and don't think the other way. They do that.

That's definitely part of it. But the most concerning part for me, Kip, is like their best guys have been really good by and large. Justin, I'm going to disagree with you on that. I think statistically in the offense, yes, 200 feet, no good. No. No good. Okay.

Mitch, a goal and three assists. Austin, a hat trick. Even. They give up as much as they get. It's not good enough. And if you don't have depth scoring, then them being even last Saturday night,

playing even, no other analytics. Just give me a plus minus on their night. I think that's fair. It's even. Yeah. I don't, for that to matter, for his hat trick to matter, you needed to come out not shoveling the puck out of your own net

as much as when you score. And they're still not there. They're still not there. They're still not there. To me, your stars aren't leading by example in your own zone. I mean, I'm trying to think of any goals against where you would pin it on them, you know, that they were out for. And I can't offhand. But I'll take that.

I'll take the fact that maybe, I know you're saying, not sure about Marner looking a little different maybe takeaways i know aren't there some of those other stats aren't there from previous seasons marner and matthews uh collectively together what we were accustomed to in the past it's just it's not there right now well i mean you looked at that game saturday and found them to be the problem no and i didn't find them to be the problem i'm just i it's it's not enough them scoring even at a high rate yeah with the where the team is right now defensively they they need to be better i i mean defensively this whole team is as bad as i've seen them under sheldon keith you know when they've had slow starts

in the past and we're talking 21 22 the last couple seasons they've been four four and one and four four and2 around this time. But if you looked at their underlying numbers and just looked with your eyes, they've been okay. You know, they've been, you know, good defensively, heavy advantage in expected goals. It just hasn't been there right now at 5-on-5 in terms of expected goals differential.

I was talking to Gazdik before the show. I think he told me they were 27th in the league in expected goals differential. Like they've been, everything says that the Leafs at 5-4-2 are probably worse than that, not better. Oh, like I said, it's flattering. The record's flattering for how they've kind of played. Yeah. And they're under 500.

Right. So that's not good. You talked about them being like them being even well they're playing half the games half the time matthews and marner so i think it's natural that they're going to be out there for some stuff against because they're playing the whole game kip i've for me after what's seven years now this is uh marner's seventh year he looks to me like he's he's got more stress on him than he ever has his leaf career right now in terms of what do you think that is stress what do you mean uh having to produce every night having to be the guy every night having to

carry the offense having to be the the top playmaker on the team having to set up matthews like he's forced his passes now to matthews oh yeah he's like it's almost as if like i know this is a low percentage chance but i'm gonna give it to him anyways was it on saturday where he made the back door past the nines on the power play instead of shooting yeah yeah and you went to the to the bench and like you know looked at the to the bench and like you know looked at the ipad or whatever and you know there's just some yeah you know it's not good it's not good right now and i think like like i said we're only 11 games into the season like how's how's he gonna feel at christmas okay but i think that this is a totally fair observation that maybe there's more

there from the stars but to me there's this much more there's five there from the Stars. But to me, there's this much more. There's 5% more. They have better. They can be better. Fine. The rest of this hockey club, Kip, is so much worse than it was last season. And I mean, I talked on this show last week about how I feel like there's two tiers of,

like Leafs, there's the core, and then there's this subordinate group. I refer to them as Team A and Team B. Sure, Team B. Team B, you know. That's not a good way to refer to them. No, if you look at Team B, and I don't want to get into my whole Islanders analogy at this point necessarily,

maybe from back in the 1980s, but this Team B last year had guys that got you over the hump and through, and, you know, Achari and Ryan O'Reilly and Lafferty, and, you know, Achari and Ryan O'Reilly and Lafferty and, you know, some physical pieces. Shen. Shen was part of that too. I mean, McCabe was added as well, but he's still here.

Hasn't really been himself. But like now, what are you getting out of team B? Wow. Name one good thing. They don't defend. They don't hit. They don't, they're not physical. They don't score.

That's an issue. Other than that. Other than that, it's great. Yeah. But it was supposed to come in the form of max domey tyler bertuzzi ryan reeves and i don't know where clinkberg lies and all of that i think he was just pie in the sky roll the dice let's hope we don't hate the chance they took on him at 4.1 i don't hate the chance they took on him. At 4.1? I don't hate the chance. Oh, I hate it. I can't change my tune. I said in the summer I liked it.

2-2, 2-4. I would have liked to have left a million and a half, two million on the table for that call. For sure. Borny, you can change your tune. I was in on it, too, on the offseason. But I'm watching it now. But I think you have to make the assessment of the decision they made when they made it it looks crappy because he's been crappy now i think

at the time it seemed like a reasonable gamble no no he looked crappy before he got here he did look crappy in anaheim he looked crappy uh in minnesota anaheim and the last year in dallas yeah so it's a couple seasons it's not like okay what because he comes to toronto. So it's a couple of seasons. It's not like, okay, what? Because he comes to Toronto and it's the place to play now. He's going to be great points in the past where you think, okay, you know, this can be an elite guy. Maybe he'll find it. And he didn't. I just, I think collectively and I include, you know,

they're they're stars that it's just not good enough. No. Should we listen to Keith clip number two on needing more out of guys? Love to. Okay. How concerned are you with the lack of scoring in your bottom six? Yeah, I'm concerned for sure. Is there something you as a coach can do to get that out of them

or is it just on the players to find a way? I mean, you know, we've got guys, you know, Nyes is new to the league, hasn't found his stride offensively. You know, Kamfer's a guy that's going to give you everything that he has, but that's not his primary thing. Domi is a guy, obviously, we expect more out of and some contribution offensively. Keep going back to that Tampa game, obviously makes two game-breaking plays that get us the win there in Tampa and allow us to get two points.

That's the kind of contribution you need from, you know, he and I's. Yeah, it's a lot of heavy lifting for our top guys right now, for sure. Not a ton of energy coming out of Keefe there either. He sounds like the weather outside. He really does. That game was that he's referenced against Tampa. That was on Octoberober 21st now november 6th yeah i would like to note that the leafs don't have a goal from their bottom six

in over two weeks now really yeah i know okay so you live long enough to become the oilers oh wow actually great comparison where do you want to take this you want to take it to max domey playing center ice tonight or you want to take this? You want to take it to Max Domi playing center ice tonight, or you want to go to Nick Robertson first? Have we had enough of picking apart that mess on Saturday? I just got to ask. I'm fine if we have, Kip. I want to do bring it back to just even Sheldon's calls on a few things.

Listen, I was a fourth-line guy. I know when coaches squeezed me and my two other line mates on the fourth line on, that's enough? And now I'm shortening my bench, and you're done for the night. And then you have to look in the mirror after the game and say, okay, was he happy with whatever he squeezed out of me? Am I happy with what was squeezed out of me for the night and then you have to look in the mirror after the game and say okay was he happy with whatever he squeezed out of me am i happy with what was squeezed out of me for the amount of but there seems to be a like a push right now to to create something that's not there on their fourth line i watched ryan reeves get caught on an icing no let me rephrase that. I saw Sheldon Keefe get caught on an icing

with Ryan Reeves on the ice. So Buffalo gets their change. And what happened? Game-winning goal. That's the 5-4 goal you're talking about? And Kip, I don't know if you saw this. If you were able to see that the whole ice there ryan reeves is changing he's supposed to be coming on the ice four four

eight minutes left which i think you would have another conversation about right about their line going out at that point reeves is asleep on the bench i don't know what happened if he's tying his skater what the leafs were playing shorthanded in their own end for 20 seconds and that's why they iced it that's why they had to ice it because Reeves was late coming on the ice. I didn't see that. Yeah. He hops on the ice late. I don't know where he was.

So then they're hemmed in their own zone. They ice it. We've all done that a few times, by the way, where they're like, oh, God, that's me. That's your man. How is there part of it where he's like, holy crap, why am I? Like, should I be going out here right now? Like, is he not expecting it? Like, I know you're sitting on the bench and you're in an NHL game,

but he's probably looking up at the clock being like, I'm done for the night. So that's a mistake that hasn't even registered on the ice. And then there's the forecheck from Reeves on the third goal where Skinner takes the 1990s slap shot over Wolfe. It was a great goal. Great goal. I love that.

But it's because the forecheck is so bad from Reeves, he doesn't take the puck or the man, right? The guy just sidesteps him with one step. And Lagasin. And Lajoie. And Lajoie got caught. The Raj. I mean, I know Sheldon's, like, totally stressed out on this blue line,

but should they have ever been together on the ice at the same time? I'm sure not. I actually don't even think that would have been Sheldon. Where Kampf looks like the only defenseman on that play camp is so worried about having those two guys on the ice that whole shift he's the last guy back it's like they played a 2-3 in soccer or something like that and they still got cooked the length of the ice for a goal so okay okay i gotta ask you guys like where's the concern meter here on that okay not being a playoff team oh yeah okay

where do you want to go big picture kipper well that's a big picture yeah that's a big picture i still because that's a that's a narrative right now and it's like i i sent out can we get can we just get through some of the changes off of go ahead what seen, because Nick Robertson's up. I think that's a significant move. And I'm not... It'll help. You know, I, for one, am full on on this move. You like it? Absolutely.

And I would sit there and tell you that Nick Robertson needs to have spent a half a season with the Marlies under different circumstances, to be quite honest with you. But two things where the stars align for Nick Robertson is, number one, the Leafs are not good right now. And number two, he has been good. He has fought hard. He has put up points with the Marlies. He hasn't gone away. And darn it, he deserves it.

You know who this is the worst news for on the Leafs? It's Domi. I understand that Domi is getting the opportunity to move to the middle. And maybe it works for Domi. Maybe they click. Maybe this is Domi thriving. But if Domi's not going to score or create anything offensively, Robertson's a shooter. I'd put three or four names in there as guys that could be bumped

if Nick Robertson has any success. That's fair. That's fair, particularly if Domi finds his way at center. And so he has some center experience in the past, right? Yes. Played with Mitch in London. He played center there? Yeah, I believe so.

Yeah. So, I don't know. But Robertson, I just like that he's gonna work like a dog he's gonna shoot the puck every time he touches his stick he's gonna try he's going to bring something i they have to do this holmberg by the way yeah that's my guy too give us something that's my guy and uh i just think right from the get-go out of training camp, the whole vibe of where he fit in, I think his problem has been between the ears too. Oh, he can do it.

You think you got a spot, and then Minton comes in, derails you. You're accused of having a horrible training camp. He comes back. The team's not playing well. It's just like the perfect storm for for Holmberg to yeah to be back to where he is right now let's go to Sheldon Keefe on Nick Robertson clip four players come up and you don't try to save the world or win win the game on one shift you know you just go out and you know Nick's trying to establish himself as an NHL player, and he, you know, wants to impress.

He's that kind of kid. He's going to give us absolute maximum effort tonight. I don't question that at all. You know, but there's still lots of other things. We're playing against a very good opponent. You know, if you don't play smart and disciplined and all that kind of stuff, then it can hurt you the other way. But the biggest thing that I talk to any player that comes up

and I want to chat with Nick today is don't think too much. Just play. You're a good player. Move your feet. And a lot of other things will just fall into place from there. Kip, people are mad, eh? Like people, it's not a straw man argument to say that you can go into the Leafs blog world

and find fire sheldon fire tree living fire shanahan fire the team trade marner trade me lander it's there i sent out a tweet after the second intermission of the lease game and they're down buffalo sabers people are reactive and i just said like how are we feeling here and it is exclusively feeling bad. Like, people, there's no one that's like, yeah, they're going to pull, like, everyone, and I know it's a negative thing, and I know that's how people act when they're sports fans or whatever, but there's not a lot of love going around for this squad, fellas.

No, and I agree. And I took the game in Saturday night, and I can tell you, after the game, as I made my way back to. Through your throngs of fans? No, no. Actually, you know what? Carried through like a... The vibe that you're describing was the vibe of the crowd leaving,

at least in my immediate area, where you could almost hear them all. Yeah, hear conversations. Individual conversations are not a good sign. You know, you're within three or four feet of every pair of people or three or four of your buddies around, and it's like none of them were talking about a hat trick off Austin Matthews or him leading, which under normal circumstances, you'd be like, oh, my God, we got the league leader in goals.

Three hat tricks in 11 games. Three hat tricks. Three hat tricks, sir. You've got 10 already. It wasn't. It was, what's wrong with them? With them? Yes.

Yes. Oh, I know. What's wrong with them? I know. And so I think some of these questions that Sam posed, the playoff thing, I know Dom Lusitian has a model that now projects them for the first time under 100 points in the past five years or something 98 points is his production projection for them you know i uh sammy i'm not concerned about that yet you're not but i i will say this

feels much more like a wild card team than it does you know without changes i actually feel like kip they need to do something about this decor. I don't think you can keep... Well, you're not wrong. And I think what we've kind of learned over 12 games is just the roster's not good enough. And it has... Defensively, for me, it has taken a step back. But how urgent are you to change anything right now because you feel like

a playoff spot might be on the line to me 10 11 games is like you have to take this to to christmas to truly understand what you have or not christmas thanksgiving thanksgiving okay i got my holidays all mixed up that's much it's the stinking weather out there. You're already thinking about time off, eh? 20 games. 20 games. Ballpark of 20 games. 21, 22.

We'll give you still a sense. I don't think they're this bad. I know it's now going back to Nashville, L.A., Boston, and Buffalo. And rest assured, man, they're in for a tough night tonight against the Tampa Bay Lightning. But I think you have to give it 20 to really understand what you have. It's a high-profile week. High-profile week.

I don't agree. I don't agree. I just feel like it's clear to me that this team is not as good. And you mentioned that the roster's bad. It always feels like the Leafs have made these huge overhauls at the deadline, more so last year than ever before, where they had, what, six new players? Remember that show?

We did that show. Everyone got traded while we were on air. Like, in the 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock hour, Sandin got traded, Engvall got traded, Luke Shen. It was like an avalanche yes when it happened but that all happened in march kip and then so there was only a dozen games left or whatever it was and it felt like they were trying to figure out their line matchups and okay i think like i feel like it's so clear that healthy their d core needs help you need at least one d today

frege on the 32 thoughts podcast is talking about calgary and zadorov and tanev and it's tough to make trades now i'm sure uh yes and calgary doesn't know where they are just yet so they're gonna wait i want to call me i'll tell them they're gonna wait yeah i got answers yeah yeah but you you you may know but they don't want to make it abundantly clear to their season ticket holders, Sammy. Good point. And once again, if you're trying to trade those type of guys from a side of weakness, which clearly Brad Tree Living is based on what he's seen so far in a dozen games,

then the price would be extremely high. And I don't think anym that's going to give you any significant help on the blue line is going to not ask for matthew nice guys that's the first guy james will ask for and could he get the door of antenna for nice i could i i threw out, and I wrote this last season, that if you wanted a significant upgrade on the blue line, be prepared to give up Matthew Nyes. And people were like screaming at me, no, no, no. And they still may be, but you're not getting help.

Like who else is out there that you're going to give up that you think won't impact your roster? In terms of who can help the Calgary Flames to where they're going this year and down the road, you know, there's not even close to another choice. Like, they're not grabbing a 5-9 scorer in Robertson. Oh, there's nothing left. There's nothing, you know, outside of...

Easton Towns? Yeah, there's nothing left. There's nothing, you know, outside of... Easton Cowan. Yeah, I'd take him. If you want to start a conversation for Tanev or Zdorov, then you're going to give up Minton. You're going to give up Cowan. You're going to give up Nyes. Hey, maybe even take... Pick, you pick.

I'll take one of three. Yeah. And you're not, I'm not sure you're prepared to do that. You're making a really good point, though, that you don't just get Zdorov and Tanev. Like, you know, they're very good hockey players. So, yes, there's a price to be paid if you do something like that. But, Kip, you know, where they're at.

We're going to get into vancouver a little bit more in our national hour because they are without a doubt the best story right now best team in canada best team in canada that one through the first month right everybody yeah yeah who didn't see this coming um philip haronic bobby or. Didn't make that big of a deal out of it. Oh, no, people did because they said they should be rebuilding. That's right. What a waste of a move. Do you remember what they gave up for him?

I think it was a first. A first and a second. That's expensive, guys. That is. It's not 10 or 10-0 expensive. It's expensive. It's expensive. You want to avoid a first and a

second if you're the leafs then you got to give up a grade a asset could we give a first and a second here in toronto for philip ronick because because i would hey hey go find one so the lines today matthew nyes gets a bump and he's going to play with the big dogs matthews and marner bertuzzi's back with the vars and nylander which i like robertson domey yarn crock and reeves camp gregor is that a dramatic look into the camera jim halpern i actually missed the camera i tried uh i i look at robertson domey and yarn crock right now and, and my first question is, who's going to be the first man in and dig the puck out?

Robertson, Domi, Yarncroft. What is the game state? This is not a joke. When do you put them on the ice? Like, when do you, what's the moment? I think you have to roll three lines. You got to roll them. It's 2-2.

You're in the third period, 12 minutes left. I would hope that you'd have a gauge on their first two periods. Uh, and it would be how much did you earn my trust in the last 40 plus minutes? And you go from there. I totally, I love that. Otherwise we're just going to play three, three and a half lines. No, no, no. Three, you need three lines to go tonight to beat Tampa Bay Lightning,

and then that's one of them. But is it heavy enough, JB? Is it going to be gritty enough? Is Domi the heavy on this line? Because from what I see out of Yarncroft and Robertson, I mean, I don't want to send Nick Robertson in on the first four check 12 times tonight and get bounced around. And if he gets hurt again, that's not what I see out of that line.

So the problem, we're coming to the same problem. And Sam and I joked about it before the show. If the ingredients you have to make a soup are like, you know, shoes cigarette cigarette butts and whatever a tin can you can't really make a great soup and this is i mean i'm being dramatic these are good hockey players cream of dirt cream of dirt it's very good but like what do you there's no mix here between robert's dog there's an answer gregor one of matthews marner tavaris or nilander has to drop to the third line.

That's your only other choice. It is pure stubbornness that Matthews, Marner, Tavares, and Nylander are still happening as duos. Something's got to give. You give nothing. Well, he gets one more crack at it, I think, Sheldon, tonight. Or what? Or no, no, I don't mean.

No, I'm not saying he's going to get fired. Don't look at me like i fired the guy no it'll be the last chance to keep yeah the the the duos together like i don't know i don't believe you though he spent so much time experimenting last year there's no other changes sammy that's it okay yeah but after that you're shuffling the the chairs on the titanic but ultimately you've said this a million times those guys want to play together those guys tend to get what they want aren't they just going to continue continue to get what they want like they're really going to put nylander as the third line center i why not is the third line center he is and can and should

i just don't like ryan reeves has been on for eight goals against and none for. It's been a failed experiment through your contract. But he needs to sit out a night. This fourth line is he's immobile, Kip. Yeah, I can't disagree. And I think they just overestimated how they could use him. Yeah. I'm telling you, I would have treated them like I'm Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan.

I got my missile here and, you know, I may use it. Cold war stuff, Sammy. Cold war stuff. I guess I'll open a book here. I would have just sat him on the bench and just said, hey, when I need you to go out there and stir it up, go do it. You can't tell me Bobby McMahon, who is a big, fast skater, is more effective as a four-checker as a part of a line with Camp and Gregor. They instantly look better with Bobby McMahon there.

And I know I'm not saying he's some awesome player or whatever, but they're better. Anyway, do you want to hear Keith unshuffleuffling the lines yeah let's do that clip three please i mean we've been talking a lot about the fact that we haven't got enough offense come out of our our uh our bottom six in particular and you know when nick's come up in the past he's he spent most of his time playing with taveras and Nylander over the last couple of seasons. Those have been his most common line mates. But down now, I think we're changing the mix, obviously,

in our third group there with Domi going in the middle and a chance to try to get a little more. When I say offense, it's not just about goals and all that. It's about time on offense, playing in the offensive zone, sustaining shifts, winning shifts, having energy and pace. Nick has the ability to do those things.

I think it just made sense for us to rejig the situation there and move Kampf down to try to help Gregor and Reeves. Also, like I said, having Domi Robertson in the third group gives us a different look there too.

Here's my last thought of watching the game live Saturday night against Buffalo. Let's have it. They're too small. Really? Yes. Buffalo is large. I know.

And it was abundantly clear with Owen Power out there, like with the one arms and nobody could really touch him I know, and it was abundantly clear with Owen Power out there, like with the one arms, and nobody could really touch him or challenge him. He wasn't rushed into either his first pass or carrying the puck up the ice. And then he had all types of options. I watched Alex Tuck score that empty net goal like he was a hot knife through butter yeah and just throwing nylander you know off to the side and then bulldozing right down the middle

of the ice that guy is a mule i watched tage thompson a mule right now we don't have they don't have like those those types of guys in their lineup yeah no i i think that if you look at this team how it finished playoffs last year to where it is now the things that help them get through a really tough series just aren't there like i know they let some guys go i wouldn't have wanted to give achari a three year contract at two million i don't like that guys go. I wouldn't have wanted to give Achari a three-year contract at $2 million. I don't like that contract. I mean, I would have kept Lafferty for sure

watching this fourth line. Good Lord, is that looking terrible. But physically, they're challenged right now, physically. But I think Lafferty's another big guy who skates. Man. It looks really good. And is he making the same ticket as Reeves? He's making less.

It's 1-1. Reeves is 1-3. Anyway. Okay. Yeah. We're going to take a break? Yeah, go ahead. All right.

We're going to take a quick break, and we're going to continue our Leaf conversation after these words. Real Kipper and Bourne. Back soon. Covering the Raptors in depth like no one else. The Raptors show with Will Liu. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back here to the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. I'm Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. Toronto Maple Leafs getting ready to host the Tampa Bay Lightning tonight. One of two games on the Sportsnet platform. Two great games. Two really intriguing games. So exciting. With the second one later tonight,

the Oilers and the Canucks. Ooh, buddy. Yeah. So sit back and relax. Get your popcorn ready and let the fireworks begin. What do we expect out of Tampa Bay tonight? Tampa Bay things? Yeah.

I would expect they know the spot the Leafs are in. Oh, God, yes. You know, they would be aware of the discourse around this team, and I could see them trying to maybe goat the Leafs into doing some dumb stuff. This sounds stupid, but, like, I feel like for the Leafs, they wish it was anyone but Tampa. You know, like, you have such – This sounds stupid, but I feel like for the Leafs, they wish it was anyone but Tampa. There's so much history now over the last few years

in this Tampa Bay team, and you're just worried about yourselves right now. It's like too much. Maybe it'll make them look at the other team and not focus on their own garbage for a night. I don't know. This is a high-profile week for the Leafs. They got tonight on national TV.

They have the Sens on Wednesday night on national TV. Wow. Then they're against the Flames in the Hall of Fame game on a Friday night and then on hockey night in Canada against another Canadian market. There's a lot of other fans' eyes on this team. Who is it Saturday? Vancouver. Vancouver, okay.

Who's coming to town. Wow. What a week. Red hot. I don't know. In many ways, maybe this is the perfect team for the Leafs because of the emotion that you have had. You beat them in the playoffs.

They're not great on the road still. Maybe this is enough to get that emotion that we've talked about that clearly was lacking against L. against LA and Boston and Buffalo. Like, come on. What more do you want? Yeah. Maybe we could play Connor, the sixth Keefe clip there, buddy.

He alludes to that exact thing. I think they certainly get our attention every time you see them on the schedule. There's no doubt about that. And that's out of the respect that you have for them. I think, generally speaking, every time you play them on the schedule there's no doubt about that and that's out of the respect that you have for them i think generally speaking every time you play you know you're in a game um so today's no different we got to prepare very diligently and we utilized yesterday as a chance to really focus on them and the things that we need to do to have success in this game here today um we're obviously still trying to find our complete game and trying

to get a lot of guys going here, but there's things inside of our preparation that I think are really important for tonight. We got a head start on that yesterday with a full practice day. Yeah. Nothing we didn't know. There's some thought that Vasilevsky

could be back right around thanksgiving that's a nice to hear good for them so all of a sudden you know maybe five three and three right now coming into tonight's game for tampa is maybe even better than maybe some people thought without vasilevsky yeah i mean this is a tight race in the atlantic division and it's going to be all these games are massive they might like look at the between first and seventh is eight points yeah like there's the the senators boy and the senators are pretty good yeah you know for a team that's last in the division right now every other team is 500 or better, according to the NHL's, the way they do standings. Would you like to talk about that?

It's not great. Okay. But, yeah. It's funny. No one had a sense that Joseph Wall let them down Saturday night either. I think if you went on a list of priorities his goaltending saturday night wouldn't be in your top three or four it's not but that power play one they shoot it through him right off the flank the skinner one it's a slap shot which you're allowed to save those i

mean it's good shot great shot but i was surprised that they went with wall in that game i thought we had a conversation we all said samson off yeah i thought i was kind of surprised uh to see him yeah i think he'd been playing well and they wanted to get him back in after uh they had another home game on monday and i guess it's against a bigger team so maybe that's like they're giving the nod towards samson off to that but samson off was spectacular against the bruins and he was probably the only reason they got a point in that game i thought it would be a pretty easy spot to bring him home on the saturday night put him in there and kind of keep the momentum going with him hindsight i mean yeah i think 100 maybe better they didn't start in hindsight because elise played the way they did and he would have a million chances and maybe

broken his confidence but before the game that's what i had thought but yeah yeah the the power play goal that you're uh is it uh peterka yes you're alluding to can you explain to me on a penalty kill why akpozo is allowed to stick his ass right into Joseph Wall's face, yet there isn't a defenseman near him within three feet either. Giordano wants to do front presence in blocking shots. Yeah, just fronting shots, yeah. Brody, the same thing. What world do we live in that we think in 2023 that a goaltender has a chance to see anything in that scenario?

They don't clear the front of the net. Right. There's none of that. Can you explain it to me? Because I'm on old fart now. Well, the idea is that they would rather front the shot so that the goaltender basically i think they take away the far side so the goalie's got to play half the net on the pk basically the you front the shot

and let the goalie play half the net and and should simplify things for him but you're right you're good teams will put a guy there to find the puck jb on that goal yeah you're talking about short side he can be out on him or whatever but yeah i see your point yeah he's he's left can they can they box out please just a little bit and geo's going to him and it's maybe a little bit late on that yeah i see your point there that the way they play that is and that's a choice the teams make you want to if you put two guys there a lot of people think it's worse for your goalie now you've got a goal your D and another body jockeying directly in front of him unless your D is big and strong enough to physically clear that guy out,

which is hard in the NHL, not to mention with the Leafs personnel. Yeah. Tough spot. Where is their penalty killing right now? Maybe Simon Benoit will do it. I can tell you right now it's not great. It's not great, Bob. Right.

Yeah. They are. Their PK is currently 22nd in the NHL. Wow. Yeah, 75%. Which has always kind of been not an issue. No. But you lose Kerfoot and Engvall and Hall.

They don't have any penalty kill personnel. No. Chari and Lafferty. All the gritty guys that did it are no longer here and you're relying on your stars and Kampf and Nyes and Gregor and like all these different

guys that just aren't penalty killers. I would like to see Gregor get a little more opportunity. Like that third line, there's no reason he couldn't get a spot there. A lot of people wanted to blame Marner on the shorthanded goal, the Tayshia Thompson goal. I thought they were both bad i know you're gonna say the past it's terrible past puts them in a bad spot horrible past but marner can take that out instead of trying to go back across the guy too it's bad why like within you're within three feet with a guy with

the wing wingspan of what uh 12 feet yeah not a good play and then keith was so mad at that he put out pp2 and that was pretty early in the power play and then with 18 seconds left he puts out the fourth line he didn't even put the power play one back out he just had seen enough at that point okay there's always opportunities and i'm not saying it's because you have to be mad but you know like give your second power play an opportunity here yeah under this normal circumstances you don't have to be pissed off at your two stars but we complained about a lack of accountability so i'm happy that someone else got to play after they made that gaffe uh but benoit i'm hoping that you know we've talked about simplifying things and physical players and whatever i i did have someone say to me it's funny that uh tree living came in brought in But Benoit, I'm hoping that, you know, we've talked about simplifying things and physical players and whatever.

I did have someone say to me, it's funny that Tree Living came in, brought in, you know, one-third of the 2022 Anaheim Ducks for their defense to try to solve their problems. Klingberg and Benoit, but boy, here we go. Okay. That's an hour of the Leaf edition on real kipper and born and we've solved nothing no zero we have identified some things that need solving than zero but there's more plenty more four games on tap and sports that's got two of the bigger ones tampa bay and toronto edmonton and vancouver and we'll get into the Canucks in the next

hour. Canada's newest hockey sensation. What do you think? You never saw that coming. No, I didn't. More real Kipper and Bourne after the break.