Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Questioning the Effort

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee dive into why they think there's a work ethic problem amongst the Maple Leafs this year after their 6-3 loss to the Columbus Blue Jackets, Auston Matthews not being a threat on offence, and John Tavares scoring his 500th goal. Then, Gord Stellick stops by (30:12) to chat about not seeing a sense of urgency from the Leafs' roster, why Easton Cowan can use a change in scenery for his development, and how Craig Berube can shift the team's mindset. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

It's the Leaf Hour edition on the Real Kipper and Born show. We are live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto and streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. If you miss us, can't catch us live. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. This hour of Real Kipper and Bourne brought you. you by Bet 365, Nick Kiprios, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee. Welcome into the studio, all dressed up for Halloween.

It is spooky in here. We've got the skeleton. We've got the cobwebs. And for Lee fans, we've got last night's hockey game. Yeah. I did Leaves talk last night, boys? You did. Got to go.

It was actually really fun. Okay. What's the over under on past 12 minutes for you last? night we did 25 you did 25 but i i just said screw it i'm bringing my laptop into my studio and i just put the jays game on while i was doing the show and i did play by play of the jays game during the show yeah it goes like oh and kaden primo and there's a ground ball the third and the jays turned to it was fun like whatever oh i had to talk about the late the least for 25 minutes i'm not exactly cracking rocks here boys it's all right the mud boys do you guys really believe that the attention

that the jays have gotten has been a plus for the Leafs what they are now going through? Or is that overrated a little bit for you? I think that there is less eyeballs on them right now. However, I do think that the stark contrast in joy to dread that it's creating is really making people go, do I want to be involved in what the Leafs are this year? You know, it's a shout out to Dave, the Crossing Guard of my kids' school. I talk about sports every single day with.

It's just like, you know, he's a Leaf's guy. And this year he's just like that. You're the ultimate. I'm a lot of drops. Fan, fanatic. Yeah. Like, tell me something. Is it helping you?

No. The J's? No, no, because there's an impending sense of doom. Like, we have, I mean, this is our second last show that we're doing with World Series games being played. Monday comes here, boys. We're diving in. We're back to four to six, probably Tuesday. Yeah, like it's, it's starting back up here.

I just think that it's the opposite effect. I think people resent this team. I think people love the Jays so much and they've enjoyed this incredible run with an incredibly likable team that's gritty and comes through in big money. They're the anti-leafs. They really are the opposite of what the Leafs have been.

The Leafs aren't like bad attitude. Hold on. No, but it just meant it doesn't matter about attitude. It means about coming through in clutch situations where the Leafs have never done it. The Jays have done it more in this run than the Leafs have in 10 years. Remind me when Vladdy signed.

That was that start of this year. April? Maybe, yeah, around there. Okay. Just prior to that, like, think about the switch of vibe, of the vibes. The Leifes, a short while ago were the, this team feels different and they are the team that is challenging for a championship. and the Jays were the Leafs. Where are they going?

No Vladi. This team can't win. And we are talking within six months of just total opposite day. But I think you're making a compelling point to stay invested and believe in what the Leafs are doing because there's time. And a lot like, I don't know if you remember this,

but how many playoff games had the Vladdi Guerrero Jr., Blue Jays won? Prior to this year. Zero. Zilch, not one. And had been in wildcard rounds. And had crushing, embarrassing, horrible losses. And we were saying, they're the same team. Their young guys can't come through.

Their clutch guys can't come through. All the sudden things are turned around. And so my point isn't that the Leafs are going to do it. But just that this is at an early stage in the season where it's like, how do you get there? How do you turn it around, not, you know, hate it? time to give up on them or hey they're going to be fine but how do you get there now how do you do what the jays have done that's a good question they didn't get there last night uh we'll get into what we saw last night but let's start with the head coach Craig brewby on his i think i got

put the clips in do i have to put the lunch in derrick sorry man sorry guys by the way in your lineup today too i know i world series game five i know i'm going to bed at 1 30 every night i'm grinding to find people to talk no one's watching hockey like i just watch jays like Yeah, I'm working on it there I'm working on it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Doing a lot around here, okay? We have covered the J's. A lot to talk about.

Okay, so we'll get Craig Bruby's thoughts momentarily, but let's start with you, J.B. Okay. Okay. So where do you go? Where is the breakdown? Do you want to talk about that game, or do you want to talk about the problems the Leafs have? I want to start with the problems that you saw last night

that lead to you. whatever problem you think is the bigger picture. If you want last night, Caden Primo, not an NHL goalie. Like, I'm sure that he has had great pedigree. I'm sure there's a lot of pressure when you don't get many starts.

I'm sure that the Leafs didn't help him out with the position they put him in. He hurt them bad last night. And when that's your third NHL start, you know, for this team, I just can't see. How do you look at that as an NHL team and say, hey, give him his next opportunity,

Dennis Hildeby, he's a 903 in the American League. I know he wasn't great last night, but that hurt them bad last night. They couldn't get a save. I can't argue with anything you said, but it's, for me, I would not start there. I wouldn't start there. Well, if we're talking about last night,

I get there, but I wouldn't start there. I'd start with Sammy Blaze dominance if I was going to go anywhere. He was actually good goal assist. Team leading five hits? Good. I'm joking. Just, we do have the clips now. All right, let's go to Craig Ruby.

Craig Brewy. Overview of the game. Clip one. Wanted you now. For me, it's just complicated in a game at times tonight, and we got burnt on it. Like, you know, we forced pucks. We didn't need to, turned them over, and, you know, they came at us. Like, we talked about their talented, good rush team, and they capitalized in their opportunities.

I think that more than anything, that's what it boils down to. Just felt like we're disconnected at times, getting through the neutral zone, and it cost us. Is it particularly? Okay. Yeah. You. I see a team that doesn't work hard. Ooh.

Okay. I see a team that just doesn't show up to. to play to compete and if if i asked you right now who are the workhorses in the first 11 games i can almost tell you off the top of my list might be nick robertson and maybe cowen i was going to say cowen right right and like who else uh nize has a presence nope nope nope nope but physically he has a presence for me, but that's it. I don't, I don't see, I see a work ethic problem. Yeah.

You know, I tweeted something last night about a lack of buy-in. When you talk about good teams and how everyone buys in, it's like, you know, they get in front of the mic and they go, wow, just everyone's, you know, part of the thing. We all believe and we're bought into the system. I see guys that are on the wrong side of defensive, or sorry, of piles, scrums. They're sitting on the offensive side, wait for pucks. That's how you end up with a five-on-one, two leafs caught on the other side of it. I look at...

Didn't expect to see a flying V in the NHL. No, there you go. You might get to see more if they keep playing like this. It's flying forever, bud. The amount of dive-ins from their F-3, the amount of guys that aren't reloading, that aren't thinking about a positional play cap, it stinks. They don't get to lose pucks in their own zone. Oppositions first on the puck and any 50-50,

or even 40-60, they lose battles. Yeah. And it's just not good enough. They, it's almost like cart before the horse. They, they went into this season going, okay, what do we got to do to now get to a conference final or a Stanley Cup final? It's like, it's almost as if the most basic principles of competing for loose pucks or outworking another team are gone. They've skipped that part. They're off to some other part.

And it's like, no, you're missing the basic fundamentals of how to win a hockey game right now and you're just getting outworked. Yeah. You know, it's funny because we talk about when great teams bring in a new player, even if they had some deficiencies, I think the Patriots for years would grab some flawed player and all of a sudden he'd be great.

The penguins, the Bruins, these culture teams. I watched Matthias Machelli on a line with Tavares and Nyes last night. And he hasn't been grabbed and said, you're going to follow this culture. He's at a position. He's getting run over. That Tavares and I's Machelli line can't play together. They don't defend.

They don't care about positional play. At least not last night. Maybe there's more to it than whatever. But we're all talking around the thing that we need to talk about. And the thing that we know we're going to talk about, which is Austin Matthews has... Not working hard. Doesn't work hard.

I don't know if it's hard work. Yeah. Doesn't work hard for me. It's that simple. He doesn't work hard. He has been ineffective for, I don't know how many games in a row, now five one five on five goals so far i don't know what it is if it's he's waiting for his talent to kick in yeah i don't know i don't know what's going on but there are there's he did the

thing again where actually you did the package i think in the one leaf game where he's on a one-on-one he like dragged it to a guy and shot it into his ankles and changed and it was like it never had any just non-threatening like not like i don't know what's going on with 34 right now, but it's a problem. And I'm sure there's lots of people screaming at the radios or their YouTube or their or their podcast wherever being like, Mitch is gone. That's a huge difference, which I think is a fair part of this conversation. But for a lot of last year, it looked exactly the same as this.

It looked like this last year. With 33 goals last year with Mitch. And he's been great without him in the past. And Mitch and 102 points. Yes. And that's what's like, what's Nyes have for points this year? I don't have it in front of me. He's been good.

He's got a pile of points. He's got a dozen. He's doing. Doing fine. You know, like it's, it's not like guys around Matthews have been terrible. Guys,

I don't know. I don't know what it is. Right now, Nealander 15, Tavarra's 14, 9, 14, Matthews 8. 8. I know Craig Brewie talked about

Max not being engaged. He's not engaged. Agree. Totally agree. So, like, what is it? It might be, it might be just,

this is just me now talking about what I've experienced with certain guys over careers there might be a little burnout explain that please because I know what burnout means he's in his ninth or tenth year now and there

there just might be a small window right now where he just doesn't have the energy or the enthusiasm to come to the rink and be the best that he can be. He's shown what he is personally and like kind of waiting for playoffs to maybe take another crack at it.

It's real and it happens. It's interesting. Sometimes you just come to the rink and you're not excited. You don't have that that juice, that jam. And I think right now he looks a little bit like

he's not enjoying himself and he needs to find a way to get it back. God, I tell you, I drove in today listening to an article on Tavares 500th goal and we'll get into that. But she had to beat that into the corner. I know. But, you know, this guy eating, you know, kale, talking about kale smoothies and quinoa and spaghetti squash for dinner to try to get the most out of himself and, you know, continue being effective into the later years of his career. It's like that, I don't know, it's tough to find that level of care and commitment.

I don't see any joy in him right now. That's exactly it. It just feels like sulking hockey out there where it just, it feels like he doesn't want to be there at times. You know the one thing that kills me, guys, is if you look at his stats, at his career peaks, his offensive years, and I said this recently, I know, but like his, all the stat categories get filled up, takeaways, top guy in the league, hits, he was a frequent hitter. He had great numbers everywhere, and there's nothing. Like the box scores are, you know, was it Sam? It's San Mitchell? Sam Mitchell?

Yeah, zero. It's just tumbleweeds. And they got a, it won't change a whole heck of a lot on this team if he doesn't kind of start leading the way again. Like there's just no way around of ever thinking that this team can go anywhere without him.

Well, we said this in the preseason, boys when we started our show. We said, Austin Matthews is last year's version of Austin Matthews. The Leafs are in trouble to make the playoffs. And what are we seeing through 12 games here? You hope he can get to last year's Austin Matthews. Yes.

It's never been officially said, but whatever he went through and we speculated a bad back. How much is that in the back of his mind that, you know, whatever he went through, whatever discomforting, had pain he had that he's in a protective mode right now which doesn't allow you to go that extra mile is he is he too protective is he is he watching over that what whatever the case is he's not what we know he can be and that's that's what i think about that's what i see when i watch austin matthews play now because right now when you do the thing where you put

you know, Tavares and Nyes together to be a line or, you know, we've seen Matthews drive a line. Was there, is it Domian, whoever he had? Domey Burtuzi when Mitch got hurt. They were great, right? Like, you've seen his ability to carry a line in his back, his underlying numbers, like, they're bad when he's on the ice. Like when him and McCabe, his most frequent D partner and McCabe is their most

frequent D-man period are on the ice together, the team, the team is way underwater. They're in their own zone all the time. And I actually thought, like, there was moments. last night where Nick Robertson's playing pretty well and Bobby McMan's using his feet. It's like, is Austin Matthews bringing down a line of Bobby McMahon and Nick Robertson? Like, what am I watching here?

He is on energy. Totally. He is on enthusiasm. Is it as easy as, like, they need somebody to, some cold water. They need a wake-up call here. Yeah. What is the wake-up call? It's not easy.

I know it's not, Kimber, but what is it? to find it this time of year, right? When you're just getting into the grind. Yeah. I think he's just in a, it's like a Wednesday over like a career. It's hump day, you know, he's got to get over this hump. And it's been going on now since February, last February. When did his numbers start going south?

All last year. Yeah. There was no high last year. No, there wasn't a moment last year really outside of, I guess, him. scoring a couple against did he score a couple against Ottawa one from the point I remember scored the one in game six in Florida

from Mitch that everyone thought was going to turn the corner bring him back here for game seven he can still do things that other people can't do but it's yeah you just don't see to your point that level of like I'm going to go take this thing over which you see from God a lot of players around the league

right now so that's that's concern 1A from there You know, are you ready to turn the page on Matthews? I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. You know, I, you know, last night they controlled a lot of the play once they fell behind.

And you go, is that what it looks like, whatever. But it's tough because I mentioned that line being bad defensively. Morgan turns went over. The goaltender is no good. The power play is still bad. You know, like it felt like a, I said to you guys several times over the past couple weeks. They just need to play a great, or a bad team and just beat them up. And just show them who's the better team.

Go, okay, 5-1. handled the better team and I think that happened last night but the better team got handled. You know, or did the handling. Oh boy. Yeah. Like Columbus looks like a playoff team. They're flying out there. I've seen enough in 11 games

where I can just sit there and tell you they're slow. They're a slow hockey club. That's not saying that they can't play faster and move the puck. But when you're talking about playing faster and moving the puck, that means you're making better decisions.

And right now they are as disorganized as I've seen probably in 10 years from in every single zone. So then what is that? I can tell you they're not in the tops of any of the skating speed things as a team. They will not get any faster than what we see today. And that in itself is problematic. Yeah. But they can improve on moving the puck and playing faster.

Well, and I think a lot of teams, like you'd say Florida would be like, hey, we're Reinhart and Bennett and like they're not a fast team, but they're different, right? They're successful in other ways. But you can be good and not be fast, although it's hard to overcome unless you're really nasty, you're really smart or really... That means playing tight and having good gaps, right?

And look at the gaps. that we've seen in the first 11 games between the defense and four. These stretch passes are killing me watching them. The Proverov one where Riley just went up the middle to a Columbus player. How was that any difference than the other night in Calgary, really? Yeah. These long stretch passes and it's like, come on, guys, come up the ice together. How about that? Try that.

No, and it's good that the coach noted that they are disconnected and that's something that, you know, they need to work on coming up through the neutral zone. Did we do is cleaning up defensively clip? No. Let's have a listen. Clip three. Well, it's attention to detail and understanding the situations and, you know, positioning where you should be. And, you know, and we just didn't have it tonight.

We didn't have it enough tonight. And that's what, man, we got, we got burnt for it. You know what's been crazy is how many weakside wingers are in their own zone standing, where they should stand in the slot and then a pass goes through the middle behind them to a D man creeping down. Like something that you work on with a team is like, okay, guys have

an area of the ice that they should be on but you take the players that are near those areas of the ice. You're not defending ice. You're defending the bodies near that ice and right now a lot of weakside wingers napping, a lot of positional gaffes. Before we get to the Tavares 500th goal

conversation, just wanted to do our daily reminder. Real Kip We're playing in the Eric Lindross, Celebrity Hockey Classic and support of Easter Seals, Ontario. Nick and Justin, along with other SportsNet personalities, will be taking to the ice to raise money for this great cause. You can support our team and fundraising by scanning the QR code on your screen right there. So if you're watching on SportsNet Plus, Sportsnet, YouTube, wherever you're watching this, scan that little QR code there and you can donate to our team. I still haven't come up with the line yet, but we don't know what the hell the name of the line is going to be. Working on it.

Yeah. So just donate to a fantastic cause and looking forward to playing with you, boys. And any contribution is a great one. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Five hundredth goal conversation. I had an Islander's fan reach out to me and be like, that was poetic.

Oh, give me. I was like, kick rocks. I hate that. It's really, it's really too bad. I mean, I was part of Mark Messier's 500th goal game. at Madison Square Garden. I think he had a hat trick against Calgary, if I'm not mistaken.

And it was a big deal and it was a party. Hold on. Mark Messier's 5th goal was in a hat trick against Calgary? I think so. Are you mixing that up with Sundeen? No. Because Sundance was in a 500 was a hat trick against Calgary too. Buddy, listen, I've been hitting the head six times.

I retired with a concussion. I'm just telling you what I think it was. I'm reporting what's going on up here. All right. You know, for Tavares, this guy who cares so much, the amount of people on that list that have scored 500 goals is so limited. Hall of Famers have come not even close to those numbers.

You know, he's up there with some of the all-time greats and deserves to be celebrated. It's longevity, it's commitment, it's talent. It's a really special accomplishment. And really unfortunate that he didn't get to lift his arms in the air when he scored it. He had to just kind of go to the bench and go, just another one. The level of consistency.

And he hasn't been a per se superstar when it comes to production. But he's just been this steady guy getting his 80 points a year over what now, 17, 18 seasons. Yep. Yeah, and that's a, you know, that's a good example. He gets around the net and gets in the right spot for the puck to find him, good play by his teammates there. And yeah, he deserved better than that celebration. It was borderline offside, and everything was like, just let it go.

Like, so I know our Craig Simpson talked about last night with the game being out of hand and whether or not, you know, Dean Evanson would challenge it or not, and he was encouraging Dean not to. The Leaf should have challenged it. What was your thoughts? The Leaf should have challenged it. You're never going to take a goal away, bud. You never, ever.

They should have been like, that was offside on their own guy to spare him. No. And I bet if you have. best of ours today. Do you want to take that goal back? He'd say, no. You know, I scored the NHL. And if it was outside, I would have challenged it.

So November. You don't give any goal. Like, think, you've got to think about your goalie, too. Yeah, no, you're right. You know, I mean, you want to give him a freebie, right? The guy's got his stats. He wants to be protected. Yeah.

Two things. November 6th, 1996, or November 5th, 1996, as I quickly pull us. No, November 6, 1995, 1995, 95. Mark Messier scored three goals against Calgary Flames at Madison's Clear Garden to record his 500 goals. So you go? I'm not crazy. Nailed it.

Secondly, somebody who went on our chat last night, there was people actually watching Leaves Talk Live, sickos. But one of our chats was like, Rubet should have just benched them for the third. Yeah. You know what? Not the worst idea. Like, Johnny, I don't want it like this.

I can think of a few other guys I'd bench. Yeah. Right now. Yeah, I mean, you'd be like, oh, yeah, we're benched him because he's not playing well. No, you're benched him because you didn't want him to. But, I mean, it's tough. You know, there's all the kind of stories kind of surfaced a little bit for John Tavares. I read a couple in the athletic where, you know, to your point with the knapsack and the milkshakes and, like, I get he's trying to be the best that he could be, that would drive me nuts as a teammate.

I'm telling you right now, I'm reading about how he needs to have the window open on flights because he needs the vitamin D on him. Tavares. Oh, I mean, that's fine. When everybody else is trying to sleep, I think that's more common. I'm just telling you, as a guy that's lived it, you know, it could, it could

be a little tough sometimes. When you were in the show, but people were hacking darts on planes. It's a different time. That didn't help either. I can tell you that, okay, because I watched I watched trainers fight over who had to unload

Ally Frady's equipment and get in fights because of the stink of cigarette smoke in the bags. Okay? So I'm just telling you... He's playing an Easterseals thing, by the way. Well, you can appreciate, you know, you wanting to be the best that you can be, right?

It can get a little tricky sometimes around 20 guys. You know, there may be a thing or two where you say, hey, could you not do that? But I think the greater point is that to be this good, this old, this consistent, it takes real work to continue to feed the machine in a way that I don't have. have the commitment to do about anything. Yeah.

Game time? Yes. It's game time. Presented by Bet365. Visit the app for the latest odds and see why it's never ordinary at Bet365. That's 19 plus. Ontario only please play responsibly. So I was looking at this this morning for a potential happiness hedge.

How I'm going to figure out a happiness hedge on this one. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't happiness hedge game seven of the Mariners series, mostly because I spent all my money on the ticket so I couldn't really. I was happy to lose the money um the jays now in the series are pretty heavy faves as you would imagine coming home they are now minus 240 favorites in this series the LA Dodgers plus 195 on the money line just one of the for the series for the series yeah for tomorrow night the jays are still dogs they're plus 125 tomorrow night going up against Yamamoto who the

dodgers are minus 150 so if you are in the happy Happiness Hedge business, there are a few greater opportunities than what we're about to go through it right here. So I'm not going to do it. I didn't do it against the Mariners. I'm keeping that. And that impacted the outcome for the forever. That was great.

Thank you. You guys don't understand what you did for all of us. You guys do not understand what it means to be a fan. No, you don't get it. You really saved the rest of us, the millions across Canada. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this line of questioning. This is just slapping all the superstitious people in the face across the country.

I get it. You guys are high and mighty. On the ice tonight, a few good ones. I'm looking at the best game of the night to probably be where I just had it in front of me here. I love watching the oil. So give me the Rangers and the oil tonight. Rangers struggling.

You probably get to see the McDavid show. If you'll remember correctly, McDavid scored one of the nicest goals of his career against the Rangers on home ice. Scored two last game. He's coming on. Great jersey matchup. Two absolute classics.

Give me the Edmonton Oilers tonight. I know they're a big fave, but I feel like they're going to run it up in the lowly Rangers minus 160 on the money line tonight, Rangers plus 135. And yeah, and the Wilde in Pittsburgh,

Pittsburgh now a wagon, Pittsburgh big underdogs in that game, plus 145 on the money line, Minnesota Wild minus 170. So maybe a little bit of a chance for some value there to ride the hot hand with the penguin. That was game time. Presented by Bet 365 is the athlete's odds

and see why it's never ordinary. At Bet, at Bet, 365 must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. I am one Jays win away from cashing in my Bet365 with my buddy Nick Vlittis, Elvis Mandela, my cousin George. Yes. We put a hundred down each for the Jays to win the World Series.

At the when? Going into this round, yeah. What were they? They were plus, almost plus 200. I think we got $1,200 for dinner. All right. I mean, Elvis, I met at Toronto Golf Club. Yes.

Beauty. Beauty. Absolute beauty. Yes. All right. Good golfer, too. You guys will burn through those winnings before dessert. I was going to say, first bottle of wine comes out.

It's over. I'm going to brace of shrimp lately. Oh, my God. All right. Let's take a quick break. Still more on the Leaf edition, including our very own Gord. We need some positivity. We need some positivity.

We need some positivity. Help, Gord. Gordo. We need you, pal. More after these words. The best Blue Js show out there. Period. Blair and Barker.

Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Real Kipper and Born show. A reminder of this hour of Real Kipper and Born brought to by Bet365. Nick Kipperyl's Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, and someone who could just... talk many leaf fans off the ledge right now our very own

Gord Stelich Gordo, how are you, pal? Kippy and Justin I am doing fantastic. I am loving, loving the Toronto Blue Jays and of course doing our duties following the Toronto Maple Leafs and the National Hockey League. So all good.

Are you going to be like us and talk about the Jays for 15 minutes while we avoid the subject of the Leafs? Or are you going to dive right into them? Well, I guess you can, well, first of all, okay, let's draw some parallels. The best thing for the Maple Leafs right now are the Toronto Blue Jays, because it's been a very lackluster, not great start for them. What can you learn from?

Who had a tough start this year, the Toronto Blue Jays, right? So the challenge being from the Toronto Blue Jays, where you are at the end, who needed to come up big for the Toronto Blue Jays, their star player, Vladie Guerrero. We last remember him getting picked off second base. So that's what Austin Matthews needs to do in the playoffs. They need the big players to come up big. So some lessons that way.

But you know what, guys? Like 2019 with the Toronto Raptors, if you're a sports fan, this is something special. What's going on with the Toronto Blue Jays? But, yeah, in a way, it does mask the Toronto. Like when they won the World Series in 1993, the Leafs were off to a 10-0 start that year to start the regular season. Okay? So you can have both things going well at the same time.

Right now, you just got one. Do you want to stay on Matthews for a second? Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, do you have a specific question? Yeah, I do. Okay. What needs to change?

What are you seeing out of him right now that has to change? Okay. First of all, I'm seeing from last year inconclusiveness about making him captain. Lack of public clarity about whatever the injury was, because usually that happens at the end of the season. And you, you know, you find out whatever kind of thing. So is he still hurt? did this thing go away? The line at the end about lack of passengers,

which he's been pretty good about being accountable, but it just sort of has been this end of playoff malaise and softball comments to questions that whatever, a lack of accountability, a lack of getting pissed off about getting eliminated for once. So those are the things I throw out there heading into the season. He had a ton of shots the other night against Calgary. I mean, I think it's going to come,

but I just think there's some questions out there in that vein that are still there. And he's got a chance to be that leader, be that bona fide leader. Hopefully he's healthy. Otherwise, we're always going to wonder, are we going to see the almost 70 goal, Austin Matthews, again? And let's get a little pissed off. Let's come on your show.

Let's get some connection. Look what the Jays are doing. You know what? These Jays are great. Back in 93-92, Fergie Oliver was giving them $100 American. Those guys were jerks. They were hard to interview because they thought they were supposed to get 100 bucks American every time they did a hit.

So anyway, that's just what I'm saying. I still like the group. I think 5, 5 and 1 flatters them. They're not 2 and 8. That's a positive. But anyway, that's what I'm looking for, Kippey. You know, last year they weren't flawless process-wise under Craig Barubei. They pretty low in possession stats and power play came around kind of halfway through the year.

But this year, they can't get a save and they can't score a power. power play goal. Let's start with the goaltending gourd. What, what now? You know, stole our slow start and primo. That was a tough showing last night. Okay. So 5-5 and 1 despite we talked about, you know, let's give Tavares and Nylander props, but otherwise, you know, one guy's gone in Mitch Miner. Austin, you got to get more. The complimentary players got to find the role. Can we get a Michael bunting rather than a Nick Richie? You know, that's going to take some time. I didn't expect it overnight. Power play, struggling. Goaltending, another one. after having a solid tandem struggling as well.

And Justin, what I wondered about was you go back to last year in Game 5, Game 7, those abominations at home. And there was the one defining play when Chris Tan had the puck. And he started going, guys, guys, guys, we got to come back here. Like, you can't be way up there. The Panthers are on our ass, okay? And basically you're saying, wow, there's kind of a disconnect there in how the forwards and defense are the cohesiveness goes.

particular instant. Now, the Florida Panthers were the best team in the NHL. They came out of your heart. They won the Stanley Cup. But I've seen that in the regular season, 2025, 2026. So to answer your question, Justin, I think all these components come into play for, in the goaltending sense, certainly a lack of the kind of defense they had last year. I think that's all a part of it, but I think Anthony Stoller's is up front too. You expect him to be a bit better. you hope Joe Wall gets in game shape and is able to play like he has in the past. I mean, those two guys gave you a pretty solid goal heading last year. As far as the blue line is concerned, there is the injury to Chris Tannov, of course,

that's affecting this blue line and the look that they've had the last season. But what are you seeing or not seeing from a group of six right now? so and we know they can do it we know we've seen them do it like we know we know we can do all that they came they came first last year for the first time since 2000 except for that aberration that was the canadian division that's a long advance so i mean that was quite an accomplishment last year and a lot of people expect them to come first this year and i still obviously think they can but kippy i i never i don't ever go into heart and all those kind of things are it almost like appears a disinterestness in about doing what it takes to

get you in first place in the Atlantic Division like they did last year, whether it's sloppy play. I mean, you had that the other time, what, the one on five that led to a goal, I think, against Calgary. So you've just seen that lack of bite, that lack of compete, that lack of finish, a little bit lack of everything. So like I said, incrementally altogether, they make the difference in this not very impressive start, even though they're 500. In my day, 500 was good. We would had to play her ass off to be fine. But your 500, your 500 back then was almost a real 500.

This isn't a real 500. They've won three, they've won three regulation games out of 11, Gord. Is that good? Well, I start with eight games. Don't get the schedule. I know you're not responsible fully for the schedule. You don't control your road games. You paid 8 of 11

at home. That's dumb. That's not good. And you can't win on the road. Like just all these, all these kind of things as we do our October 6th, assessment we're in a lot of ways we're giving them an F for a team that's a modern day 500 yeah yeah no there's certainly time to figure things out you just like to see a couple things getting straightened out you know among the decisions they have to make is like is east and Cowan going to be a part of this thing whether for this year or as a solution for them in any spot and

gordon i'm going to give you my opinion before you give me yours but i don't think he's ready um he had three shots last night that was good his line looked pretty good he works hard i all compliments to him. He has obvious talent and he obviously works. I just don't physically think he's there and this doesn't seem like the best thing for his development. Yeah, Justin, that's my early read. And, you know, I

was one being very cautious to people about Matthew and I's when he came up because he came up at the end of the season. He only played very few regular season games, but the playoffs, man, I got to say, he was the real deal. Like, you know, he, like, was a duck took to water. So that's what you're hoping Easton Cowan can be. And

because so many first round picks have been traded, don't have a lot of those particular players. And Justin, Willie Nealander spent time with the Toronto Marleys, okay? He spent time there. Zach Hyman was with the Toronto Marleys. Guys that became very elite NHL players. The important thing is to spend the quality time, get the quality minutes, play in all the situations.

So right now, if you had to ask me, I still, first of all, I still believe in him. I'm still very optimistic. He is a blue-chip prospect. I think these team Canada guys got really skewered unfairly last year the way things went at the world's, you know. But right now, yeah, I'm broadcasting now because we back then rushed too many players to the NHL. People could argue there were other reasons why I'm broadcasting now. But anyway, I saw that.

You're an exceptional broadcaster. That's, well, thank you. Thank you. But about is someone truly ready or not? And yeah, so there's no, hey, if it comes down the road, the whole thing is development, the whole thing's getting coaching, the whole thing's getting opportunity. And, yeah, that's my read on it right now. Like, here's this, Justin. You're watching and listening to Gord Stelick,

former general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs and doing a great job on Sports 9 of the fan as an analyst. Gordo, I've gone on record. I'm not a huge fan of, you know, using the media. But if Craig Barubi decided to go down that path, he wouldn't be the first and he certainly won't be the last. So what's the next stages out of Craig Burubi?

Ruby to get this group going. I like using the media. Because what you're doing is I think sometimes can be the players like the media,

like stating the obvious. I think the fans appreciate because unlike the tepid responds about the process and we learned and whatever which you show they never did playoff year after playoff here.

Look what it did for Todd McClellan in New York. Look what it did for Lindy Ruff in Buffalo about just, you know, Craig Ruby's had some mini ones. Like he's come out and not been all that happy, right? It's like a teacher on your

ass about something, just not happy the way things are going. But I think every now and then, you know, you remember before Sheldon had to walk back something he said once. I don't know why you have to walk back. Like, it's not like the old days. And if you do it like the old days, you're going to be out. Okay, you're going to be out. Okay,

it's a way different era. But every now and then, it doesn't have to be the Riot Act. And also, what McClellan did in Detroit, he made two big substitutions. Like, don't put the 18th player out in the press box. like do something, you know, like even Calgary, Matt Coronado, whatever. Just so, yeah, I don't, I don't have a problem with that.

And I, he's not at wits end. He's been around the block. It's not a wits end thing. But, you know, unacceptable for this collection of players for nine consecutive years in the playoffs is unacceptable. And sometimes I don't, I don't think the cage getting raddle matters. It won't bug Willie, you know, you know, and I don't know about the other ones. But you think they have, and I believe they do. professionalism to rise to the challenge to understand what the coach is saying and agree with

it and work or do something to make a change. You know, I keep looking at the group and saying like if this thing, if they become the Blue Jays at the end of this year and they start to figure it all out, you know, it doesn't seem like it's going to come externally. Some things have to change for some guys. Morgan Riley is obviously a big part of this team. He has been a big part of this team. He's looked better offensively.

He's more involved. but it still feels like there's moments where you're like, God, the turnovers or certain things. What have you made of his start of the year, Gordon, his contribution to where they're at? Yeah, I mean, if you say it, not good enough, right? And I'm big on them. And to your point, Justin, like about the internal thing,

about just like, these are good guys. They like playing here. It's been a great run. But in the dressing room, not be leaders and how they think you should be leaders, be leaders making a difference. Like have something that changes, whatever, about, you know, how things go about. So, you know, last year, it's the best, it's the weirdest thing.

It's the deepest they've gone in the playoffs, game seven, the second round, in 23 years. They're the team in the NHL with the longest current streak of making the playoffs, nine consecutive seasons. Yet there was no bigger disappointment. And it's because how they lost to Florida. And you said, how the hell did Florida, not just get the talent, but where did they get the onions and everything to come and just steam roll over as a Florida? and take control of that series, and we let that happen. How did that all happen, okay? And part of that is the internal stuff about,

it wasn't just adding Marchand. It was there before. It was that kind of commitment to play a certain style. And obviously, the Leafs can go better at that than they have at the past. And that's something internal, you know, George Armstrong, when they last won the Stanley Cup, as you see in the book 67 back there,

which if you see me in my master from Dufferin, Master, flag me down, the books in my trunk, whatever, at a good price. But that year they lost 10 in a row. That's the longest losing streak in Maple Leaf history, the last time they won the Stanley Cup, right? And they talk about a great meeting. They didn't have many, but one he organized, and he organized the leaders, and started

with them, and they bleeped on themselves about what they had to do better. And they say that was kind of a bit of a, in a cold January, they needed a bit of a bump that way to get on track and ultimately win the cup. I understand it's a different era, but the concept still lives. Hopefully the current team's got their meeting still going on right now because they need something. Gordo, great stuff as always, man. Thanks for joining us.

Hey, thanks, guys. Hopefully a World Series parade I'll see you next. There you go. Maybe a Stanley Cup parade. I'm always going to have you a glassout full guy, but let's enjoy the blue jays on the weekend. Absolutely, thanks, Gordo. Gorda. Gord Stelick, everybody.

Yeah, just first Willie Nealander is concerned is clearly he's the best player yeah yeah agree yeah no questions right now on on that but he plays against calgary went down for split second where it looked like he was bothered by something but finished the game awkward fall on his side and then he's not available for columbus and then it's uh he's managing something and i'm like it's it's game 11 how how do you how do you play against calgary knowing that something's bothering him and now you're going to is are you going to manage this guy all season now based on what's going on and pick your spots when he plays and doesn't play because like if he was bothered against cal uh he shouldn't have played against calgary and i wonder if it's one of those things give him two days off don't give him one and one I do wonder if maybe sort of those things where he's like, yeah, it feels fine. It's actually not a problem.

Like, not all this stuff is... So he's the doctor now and he gets to decide? Well, I think Kipp and you've had pulled groins, I assume, and there's varying degrees of how it feels. The doctor can't get it in there and look how it feels. They just have to take your word for it. His intentions are good. I want to be there.

I want to play for the guys. But you cannot take a chance now of a nagging injury on what is now where everybody knows is your best player. Yeah, you know, if you look at Neelander through the years, this guy's been an Ironman for the least. I mean, he plays last year to 82, year before 82, year before 82, 81. He plays every game. And, you know, it's some of these guys just assume they should go.

And they play not feeling perfect. And you're right. It's hard to grab a guy like that and be like, hey, you're too important for game 10 to risk it here. against Calgary and Columbus, right? So certainly hope that that didn't lead to anything more lingering because that would certainly be problematic. They don't win the game against Calgary without them,

so maybe they need the points. You're not wrong. I have gone on record also to kind of support what you just said about Cowan, but I'm pulling a 180 right now. You can't send Cowan down. He's a working B or the closest. this thing is you have right now. He brings youthful enthusiasm.

I don't have. I got guys that are just, I got to take a pulse to see if they're, you know, beating. That's the best case you can make to keep them for sure. I thought that line was actually had their moments last night. Wah, Joshua and him, I thought they actually look like a decent third line.

So for the record, I think he played well last night. They do too. But I do see, I just see moments where he bumped and he's down. Of course. But so Kip, it's so short-sighted to be like, the best thing for the Leafs is that. to give this, I'd like to see him. I know it's short-sighted, but like right now,

the, the 19 other guys, 20 guys have put the team in that kind of mindset right now, is that they got to start thinking short window here to get out of this funk. Now, if you can get good stretches where you're in a bit of a comfort zone, hey, send them down for a week, no problem. Let them go quarterback of power play down to the Marley's. But I honestly, you know, watching this group, so Sammy Blaze, he gets to play again just because, you know, registered five hits and scored a goal. They had an assist. He's in.

He's in. You get to play again. You know, I found myself watching that game. I noticed that with Cowen that he has that energy. But I thought, like, they need Lawton. They need David Camp. They need someone who'll be a high guy. And I know that.

Say what you laugh at that all you will. He's an NHL player who plays good positional defensive hockey. And they stink at it right now. They need someone bad. So I don't know if he's allowed to play for them or they've just told him to buy-bye. He just doesn't. Not that he is the difference.

Carlos got to be better. Oh, boy. Carlos is an issue now. That's a first minting. I've been calling in my head Justin Tall. Like they paid a heavy price. Justin Tall is very funny, dude. Big price for Carlo to come in.

And he should be the guy right now, taken over for TANF. Not happening. Yeah. Not happening. I think played 24 against Calgary. It's supposed to be your, basically your number one shutdown right D. You know, I guess Tannov's in, obviously not.

But you got a bunch of guys are supposed to be great shutdown guys. Benoit's a soup sandwich. Myers is all over the map. It's ugly boys. They're ugly. You know what they're shutting down? My will to watch them. I know.

They're shutting it down every night. Every time the puck comes back out of the game. of the other zone, I find myself immediately scanning for where their forwards are. Is anyone coming back? No. Is anyone on the right side of this thing? How many wide open high guy looks have the other teams had so far this year?

It's like Red Rover, Red Rover, we call you guys over. That's what it's like in the neutral zone. Here they come. All right. Good stuff, boys. Like many shows over the past four seasons, we've solved nothing. No solutions. except we think the Jays are good.

You know the J's are good. They're very good. Our thanks to Brian Lotton in the first hour. Our thanks to Gord Stelich in the second. Leafs line tomorrow. 416, 413, 4141. Call the leaf line. That's not like you to prepare.

I forgot until right now. So call the Leaf Line. 416, 413, 414, 414. I don't. I'm not looking forward to that. I mean, either. Have a great night, everybody. Enjoy your night off before the J's getting.

chance to close out a world series.