Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Reload, Retool, or Rebuild?

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee look back on the Toronto Maple Leafs' loss to the Buffalo Sabres to push them eight points out of a playoff spot. They discuss the disappointing, winless homestand, the team's regression from last season, Craig Berube's fiery postgame comments, and another rough game for Joseph Woll. Then, they discuss whether the organisation should trust Brad Treliving and Berube to oversee what comes next for the Leafs and what factors — including Auston Matthews' contract situation — that may complicate a retool. Later, Nick, Justin and Sam discuss whether the Leafs should aim to bottom out so they can retain the Top-5 protected pick they traded to Boston, and the players that should be moved if they do retool.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Live it in color. Bill Kipprin-Borne. It's our Leaf Edition hour. Jen Rollnick in for Jake the Snake today. Derek Brandeo, as always, and Zsa Jaja Gabor. Nick Kippreos, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee.

Wherever you're watching, listening, Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto. We're streaming always on SportsNet. We are here for you. Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube. just for the next hour, lie on a couch somewhere,

and just listen. You think we're going to help anyone today? The doctor is in. Toronto Maple Leafs woke up this morning eight points out of a playoff spot. That is so many. After dropping a loss to the Buffalo Sabres last night. in a game that many, many

talked about must win. Are we many? We're many in this game. We probably were in that group. I mean, you guys had a bit of an early start last night because you went on air. You did your leaf talk. And I'm sure a lot of thoughts came out

that were very much reactionary to the loss. You've had time to sleep on it. Yep. and then come back on our show and feel the same? I got to tell you, I don't even think about that game last night. To me, all my thoughts since that game ended are what now? Like that game was just another piece of confirmation that this team does not have the horses. They're not talented enough.

The season is not happening in terms of the playoffs. And you and I had both said in things we had written, you have to win to keep up because there's so many teams in the hunt. Someone's going to be winning. The second you trip and fall, you're left in the dust. They got left in the dust. They're eight points back, buddy. I'm just...

So he's more practical, but I know you're more emotional. So... I'm just reading our YouTube chat here, and somebody just said, I'm just here to see Sam McKee suffer. So my point, you're much more emotional. So if we were to look at, okay, the homestands over, right? Yeah.

But if you were... Oh, okay. First time since 1985 that the Leafs have lost all five games of a five-game homestead. Wow. 40 years. So Vegas, Colorado, and Buffalo were the last three here. Which one disappointed you the most? That's a hard question to answer.

I think just the sort of the overarching feel after all three games is probably what disappoints me the most. I think it's hard not to say Friday night against the nights and just how that went and how that was just sort of a starting point for some real concern. But now when we're sitting here, I can't help but think that everybody in that room last night knew how important of a game it was. You talk about having Daryl Sittler's grandkids in there reading the lineup cards and getting and everybody fired up and the team talks to Sittler and all this stuff, you think that that's a game where they know it must win,

all these things that they would come out and they'd be like, all right, it's their last stand. And they just don't have it. Like, we talked about this a little bit last night, but it's just, they're just simply not good enough, boys. They don't, they maybe want to have it. They maybe want to look good, but they're just not good. Well, it's not good.

No, let's turn this to you. But they're better than that. Are they? Yes, they are. Come on. Let's go back to the beginning of the season. I didn't have them winning the division. You did.

Did I have winning a division? Well, somebody did here. I just said they're going to win the cop. That's all. Whatever the case is, nobody had them out of the playoffs. No. Okay. And I know you sit there and you compare Buffalo's defense to what the Leafs defense has.

And we know they're more talented. But we didn't sit here a few months ago and talk about the blue line. like we will today. No, you know. They were good enough. We made it abundantly clear and I know you have. This defense was good enough to make the playoffs and make some noise. No, they don't have that one A guy, but by committee, by the amount of shut down that we've

seen them over the past year and a half, two years collectively, it was supposed to be good enough. Don't tell me that they're losing because they're just out talented. Well, no, I think you're totally fair. I think heading into this season, when you looked at a decor that was Morgan Riley and Chris Tanna. Chris Tanov, their best shutdown guy, played the most minutes right side guy. Morgan Riley, apparently best summer. Easy to see them is fine.

You know, you do McCabe and Carlo. So Tanev's out. Carlo doesn't play a big portion of the year. Riley's disappointing. And then Ekman-Larsson, Benoit, it's easy to look at that group and go, yeah, it's pretty decent. They can keep their head above water while the forwards where they're really good can can run with things. And yes,

injuries have played a part in it. It took a while to get things going out of the gate so they fell behind in points. And it all has worked to this cosmic gumbo of terrible. But scoring was never a thought. I brought it up a couple times. You're like, they're top five, top seven. They're fine there.

I said they'd score and they score. And you were right. They could score. Can't defend the lick. Can I interject here and say that maybe getting the best goal tending in the league last year might have had something to do with that, with them looking better defensively

and papering over some of these concerns that we had. Like, Stollars and Wall last year, boys, stole our specifically was unbelievable. Top five safe percentage in the league and top five shooting percentage in the league last year, both things which are a little tough to keep up. I just think that, you know, I saw Mike Kelly put out a tweet today

about just all their sort of fancy stats this year, and it's a lot of 32s across the board. We weren't dumb. There were some signs last year, too. We weren't dumb. We saw it. We knew how many games they stole. Totally.

Oh, yeah. Right? Like, even last year, we'd be coming here and talk about, what would this record look like if they didn't have stole ours? Like, that was the conversation we had every day. It pissed me off because...

And that conversation was possession. They never had the puck. It's like, yeah, the other team of the puck for two more minutes than their end, but they won again. Yeah. We knew it was a little fishy, but jeesh, it has...

But I think the biggest... I mean, watching that game last night, I mean, Rasmus Dahlin is just out of this world good. Like, that is a number one defenseman in his absolute prime. And we've had the conversation all week about the least wanting to have a guy like that or how there's all these teams in the league. Like, they just don't have the ability to run a guy out there that's that good for 27 a minute tonight. Like, he was everywhere.

I was blown away by how good he is. I mean, it's just. Oh, and it kept coming. It just kept going. Bill Byron. I mean, he's great too. I mean, Byron's great, clearly. But Dahlene is just a step above.

Yeah. I mean, it becomes not even a. about Buffalo. Like you're not, in all these games, we just watch them play five playoff teams. Yeah, about 10 teams a league.

They can't play with those teams. And obviously it hurts not having Willie and Tanna. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it does, you're not that close. You get to add McCarren McKinnon to the team, and I'm not sure that they're winning those games they just played.

Yeah. Yeah, okay, they would help. Yeah, they might. We got a couple of Kippers, Clippers and head coach, Craig Bruby, he was not a happy guy. He was as pissed off as he's ever been.

Which one do you want to play first? I think you should start with the clip one and then move on from this. Let's do clip one overview of the game, please, Derek. I thought, well, we had a couple of bad breaks go off for our guys, but end of the first period, we turn a puck over, they score. And then the end of the second period, you know, it's not even a shot from the point,

but we don't have our guys in front of the net and they score. That's the difference in the game for me. And we come out in the third and we get scored on on the first shift. I mean, it's just two or three mistakes in our internet. The third period thing was hilarious because TSM panel, of course, what they would do, what every panel would be doing. This is the biggest period of the year. They lose this and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I barely sat down with my bowl of popcorn. I was like, bing, ball. I'm like, oh, it's 353. Like, wow. Wow, what a big period. they really showed up for it. Yeah. Oh, God.

Good Lord. And it's gone. And it's gone. One exciting biggest period of the year. Yeah. I cannot confirm this, but he got pissed on the podium. Uh-huh. And my guess is, are Luke Fox asked him a question?

You may be right about that. Let's play a clip two. What did you learn about your team, please? What did you learn about it? your team on this homestown? What did I learn about him? Well, we got to keep the puck out of our net is what I learned. And we didn't do that here at home other than Detroit game.

It's the only game we did. But until we decide to do things right and keep the puck out of our net, and that's the goalies included, this is what you're going to get. We scored enough goals on this homestand to win games. But we didn't keep the puck out of our net. Until you want to keep the puck out of your net. And that's a couple things. Managing the game, puck play, don't give odd man rushes up, defend harder than we are. More desperation in defending, and goalie stop the puck.

That's it. We could score goals. We score goals. But until we want to keep the puck out of our net, this is what we're going to get. There's no more than that. I don't want to talk about it anymore. That's all it is. I don't need to learn anything about our team.

I know our team. And they're capable of doing it. you know we can do it yeah that's the way Luke makes me feel too chalky a lot you know it's a good question first of all

just I love that because that is like real and raw I wish he would have spoke like that about two months ago when it could have mattered now

now that he's less guarded, it's just, it may be too late. It's the part that stands out to me is like, the implication is that these guys don't want to do it. They don't prioritize it. We can do it, but they don't care about it as much as they care about getting their points. You know, that's the offensive side of it.

And that sounds really frustrating when as a coach is Bruby. Brewy knows what you have to do. He's won a cup. He's been to. in the league a long time. He knows what it looks like when a team has bought in. I don't need to learn anything about our team. I know our team.

Unfortunately, some of has your team bought in falls on the coach. Totally. And the team has not bought in. And I think that comes from having a lot of offensive first guys. That's personnel too. But somehow you've got to convince those guys it's more important to do this stuff first. And he hasn't. He hasn't gotten them to buy.

in. He hasn't had them to make it a priority. And now he's, now he's starting to kind of snap a little bit more so than we've ever seen before. And 28 games to go. And in fairness to

Ruby, he gave a thoughtful answer, the rest of it. He was, didn't, you know, he got frustrated. I'm always fascinated by people who talk themselves mad. I don't know if you're someone who does that. But like, there was no new addition. He just kind of worked with Tororella does that work?

I can do it with the best of them. As you get going, like, get more. Oh, yeah. I remember the Zane Perrek take a few weeks ago. He started out being like, oh, it's not that bad. He's like, oh, yeah. By the end of it, he was like, this kid, what's you doing? Thank you, Sam.

Excellent example. Thank you. But, like, for me, I need, like, a new stimulus to, like, get mad again. But some people, Tortarella was always good at this. Work up and work up. By the end of it, he's more mad than when he started somehow. Brooby, that kind of happened to him there. Luke was trying to get in again.

It's probably a thing where he could see him. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, I don't want to follow up from you. Yeah. We're done here. I think about two weeks ago I wrote on Joseph Wall for the Toronto Star. Yep. And that was coming off Colorado.

What are you laughing at? Don't laugh at me. You cursed the goalie. No. I did not curse the goalie. Yes, you curse the goal. What I did. was right.

He's got a ways to go to be trusted. That's what I wrote. And you want to sit there and say, I cursed him or I might have been right a little bit. You're right. And, you know, even that, so I totally think that he was disappointing last night in this stretch where they've really needed him.

He hasn't been there for them. But even Bruby going through the goals, like the game wasn't close. Buffalo was way better last night. It wasn't like, ah, they had some bad bounces or whatever. It wasn't close. So, yeah, Wall was bad. He was throwing in the pile with the rest.

But we suck. It wasn't a close hockey. We've said eight shots with eight minutes and 32 seconds left in the second period. Right. They had three goals on nine shots. They didn't get to play, really. Like, the sabers just skated circles around. Yeah.

Killed them. Well, it's not good. No. So. Do you want to hear the goal-tending stuff? Yes. Yeah, this is just a clip about more of his frustration. You can play the clip.

You mentioned the goalies. Yeah. Did you wish you had Dennis Hill to be at any point during this home stand? These are our guys. Stollards is back, ready to go. So this is decisions that you've got to make. There are our goalies. Luke, God, Luke's got some guts, man.

He hangs in there, man. And Barubi's answer is, I'm going. down with the ship. Yeah. And these, these are the guys. It's also, by the way, someone has built the ship.

I'm going to go down with it, but these are the guys that are the ship. Well, so the next big question that everyone's asking, as you would know. You got anything else? We need Broomie anymore.

You got anything else? What else we got? It's just a waste of time, isn't it? At this point, I think we played the key points from the, I mean, actually, we should play this Matthew Nye's which as I found was pretty fascinating from last night because, you know,

the standings talk has been pretty relevant. There's a question to him after the game about like where they're at. And just just listen to his thoughts here. You can put that match on the next to us. Yeah, I think there's still a lot of hockey left, you know, and I think the standings are really close. I haven't really looked at it much, to be honest with you. That's how confident I am that we're going to get there.

You know, we just got to focus on each game and ahead of us is four big games on the road. So that's the main focus. I think I'm not going to really look at the, the standings or the point totals at all. I think we're just going to try to focus on playing to our identity, playing our hockey, and trying to win games. I'd consider a look.

Maybe have a peek. When I played at Maple Leaf Gardens, every day there'd be NHL standings in the dressing room. I don't know if they have standings. Oh, they're there. Anywhere in the dressing room, but in my day, every day, guys would walk in

and I'd find Larry Murphy just standing there staring at the standings going we got a lot of losses we got a lot of losses a lot of losses I really believe that

Matthew Nyes needs to look at the standings and acknowledge we got a lot of losses lot of losses no Yes, I just think that kind of speaks to... I admire his attempt to...

Sure. Showing confidence in the team or whatever. He listens to you every day. That's the problem. Well, maybe it is. I don't know. But it is. It kind of reminds me of like if, you know,

your grandma's dying on her deathbed, and you're like, yeah, and I'm going to medical school and everything's going to be great. And we, you know, just like tell the fans what they want to hear. It's not going to happen. We all know it's not. I don't know. Okay.

So what did you guys spend the majority of your talk last night? Was it on past or future? I would say half and half. Yeah, a balance, but I will say I wrote an article today. All right. And I did skim through it a little bit. Oh, is it up? Okay.

And you touch on where do they go from here, correct? Where do they go from here? You know, towards the last third of the article, I kind of pivoted to, we're all aware that they have to do a retool. This is not a rebuild situation. And I know that maybe you're not as fussed on Matthews, Neelander, nyes, I don't know. But they're not going to sell those guys. So it's a retool.

And if it's going to be a retool, who's going to do the retool? We've talked about that on this show. We did. I brought that up the other day to you guys. Yeah. Of who gets to, who's making that decision? Right. And so it is at a crucial, at a real crossroads here. I can't help but think of what the Buffalo's bills just do.

They fired the coach. They fired the GM. No, yeah, they fired the coach, kept the GM. But I think actually that Shaw McDermick picked Brandon Bean as the head coach, as the general manager. Like he was part of that process. Okay. And then they just fired McDermott and hired the offensive coordinator Joe Brady. Okay.

So that's what the Buffalo. I just feel like there is an order to. to this stuff where, you know, you want Shanahan to have picked his GM and you want your GM to have picked his coach and there's an order to this stuff. Otherwise, it doesn't work. You know what I mean? Like it didn't work when Kyle Dubus and Mike Babcock were together. That wasn't who Kyle wanted to run his team.

So if nobody's getting fired, then we can proceed and start going, okay. What are we doing? Whatever. No, you can't. If anyone's getting fired. We need answers to that question first. That's what I'm getting. That's the whole story.

So your article, it's out on sportsnet.com by Justin Bourne, and its title, Maple Leafs should be deadline centers, but have bigger questions to answer first. What is the biggest question first? Should they fire the GM or coach? Okay. And the answer is? The answer is that here is, I laid out,

I like to say that I led a horse to water. Here is the information that we have. The team, you know, a couple years ago, very good defensive team, you know, great in the standings, had real talent, felt good, underlying numbers were awesome. It's getting worse, significantly worse over the last couple years, even though the numbers were bad last year. I look at the state of Calgary and trees, you know, what happened with tree living there. I look at how they tried to replace Mitch Marner here. It's not going good. And on the coaching front, do you want to do that too?

So one at a time. No, go to. coaching front. Okay. There's a couple of ways you judge a coach. You judge it by defensive structure and defensive numbers to me because you can make anyone play in their positions, special teams, the power play, the penalty kill. Okay.

They're bad. I appreciate you putting them together, but we really shouldn't because we need to answer questions on the GM first. The coach is after a big portion of the. the GM's work is kind of done so he knows what kind of players and team he has. What kind of coach he needs? What kind of style you want? We're getting way ahead of ourselves to go and sit there and say,

you've got to get a new coach tomorrow because we don't know what kind of players are going to end up. Totally. That's why I believe there's an order to these things. Okay. So your first question, which you want to lead me to water, is should they fire the general manager? My second question that should follow up your. first question is if they do, who replaces him? Who makes the calls now? Who decides what players leave and what players come?

Isn't that the second question? Sure. So quite literally, I'm asking you who hires the general manager. So Keith Pelly, CEO of MLSC. It has to be him. It has to be him. So that's your answer. He's the one who will choose.

And I assume he has a broad board. board of people around him to discuss and get advice and who we think is the right guy. And you want Keith to do this before the season ends and not in the off season? Well, if you do it in the off season, there's probably other people available. I don't know who's available right now

that, you know, can just step in here and do this today. My guess is not many. Right. And so then what? Are you going to hang on to assets because you can't fire the GM now because there's not someone to replace them with. Those are all legitimate questions

and they're tough answers. That's the title of the article. There's no easy answer. There's no easy answer. Turn in my mic. Can I present to you a case that there is a very natural break and reset that we're heading towards here in the schedule

where there is an opportunity to really look yourself in the mirror and figure out where you're at in terms of a they're going out on this road trip i know that you know vancouver stinks seattle had a big win against i think they beat washington five one last night they definitely don't suck calgary is whatever like there's a chance that they get one win before the break okay that's the best case scenario sam so it's really clear what has to be done i just can brendan handle trading all these guys for second and first round picks can can lalan can can do the

a horror check thing towards the end of this year and just figure it out in the off season. I just, you can't. Okay, hold on for a second. You can't be half pregnant here. You have to make a decision. Why doesn't, like, if you're, if people are ripping on tree living, why aren't they not ripping on printup two? He's been around for 10 years.

His fingerprints are all over the management team. Totally agree. We're talking about contracts that a lot of people hated over the years. Why does, what would happen here? Why does Pridim come in and be the guy now? Just because I know that he's an assistant general manager and that maybe, listen, I'm grasping at straws here. I'm looking for ideas, but I just, I don't know why.

Listen, I'm not, I'm not one way or another. I'm not sitting there going like. You seem to be guiding us to an idea. Yeah, like what's? I can honestly sit here and tell you I don't have the idea of this is the way it should be. And I'm not even saying that Pritim is going to be bad or can't be a great gentleman. manager down the road. But, you know, I'd rather not do anything instead of making more bad decisions.

And, you know, to sit there and say, to sit there and say, Prendham, who was involved with tree living and Kyle Dubus all these years, I certainly like to know, like, what, where he, his responsibility lies in some of these things, or did he just push paper and pens for everybody? Did he just fill out forms? Did he have an opinion on Holmberg? Was he for Holmberg? He was the cap guy, right? He was the cap guy for years where he made the math work.

But he made the math work. But he was also involved in negotiations. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean... I'm with you. Listen, I always say... I don't know about Brandon coming in here. Neither do I.

And separating himself from what's happened the last 10 years. But the problem with the other solution, which is, to your point, just ride it. out this year is if you let guys walk Kipp and don't do something, you've missed the whole chance to retool. That's what you did with Marner. You said, uh, maybe something good will happen later.

No, it won't. You need to be proactive. Bobby McMahon has value out there. OEL has value right now. This summer Bobby's going to go, uh, thanks. I'm going to take my five sheets per year somewhere else. Maybe, maybe then you come to the conclusion that you, you order, you order, uh, tree living to sell three or four pieces and get whatever you can and then we're going to reassess

you in the summer and you let him go very possible as an outcome if that's the case okay but is he going to be willing to do that well sure sam i've been telling you all week okay it's not his decision okay it'll either be ownership to pelly or pelly to treat you living. Allow me to play. That's the way it works in the world. Allow me to play devil's advocate in the world because this is a radio program and that's what you do.

Yeah, but is there a chance he's been just handed a raw deal here, Tree, walk into the Mitch Martyr thing two weeks before decision has to be made, no chance to really look around. This year, goaltenders are not there at the start of the year. Players are hurt. Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong

after 108 point season. He had first rounders for Carlo. Okay, and Scott Lotton. That's, you're not hanging out at anybody, but you go, you like the, the Snow Lars pick up, you like the Ekman Larson pick up, these are things he's done. Like is there any world where they say, all right, some good, some bad, we'll hang on. This is a team in October we all had in the playoffs. Everybody liked the feel of, even if it's a wild card spot, they're going to get in.

everybody, us included. Okay. Keith Pelly was talking about being all in. He was talking about cap space and how they were going to use it. They were talking about going for it. I don't know. Does Tree Living really think you go from that to I kind of walked into this and I really had a raw deal

and, you know, I'm going to fix it now. You know, it depends. on that relationship with Pelly. You know, they had that sort of, these are the two guys, him and Brooby, were going to be the figureheads, but yeah, I don't know. I don't see it flying.

And you tell me, you're representing a lot of the fan base, Sammy. You see that flying over? What? Keeping tree living and Brooby? No. No. People are pissed. People are, I mean, they've had enough.

I just, like, I think when you are in, supposedly your competitive window and you have a season like this and you're at the helm of one of the most famous franchises in all of sports and it goes like this, there's going to be questions that are asked. And like I thought the carlo trade last year, I defended it. I was like they needed to get a defense.

Were they just going to go into the playoffs with Philip Myers as their top right hand shot defenseman? I'm not a general manager. I wasn't the one who pulled the trader. Bad trade. The lot and one, more defensible for me, still not a great trade. It's just you're judged on the decisions you make.

and unfortunately for him, those ones were bad ones, and they didn't work out. You know what's tough as a GM is when on those trades, no one ever remembers retention, right? Like a lot is paid to get a team to eat millions of dollars, and that was part of those deals. 100%. That'll never come up.

You brought it up. That's good. That's good. That's good. Last night, did you guys talk about Matthews and his future? Yeah, probably came up. And I mentioned it in my article as well. I did see that, yeah.

That's part of. What conclusion did you come to? Conclusion is. Yeah, well, the conclusion is just you're very much in a Quinn Hughes situation where I think if it goes well next year, that I think you're all right. I think if it goes badly, I think you might be in a Quinn Hughes situation, if you know what I mean. So why wouldn't you learn something about that from that situation and get ahead of it? me as early as I can I go to Matthews

and I go to Neelander what do you guys want to do? Are you in or are you out? You know I mean neither guy can sign a new contract so no no no no it's nothing to do with contracts physically mentally emotionally spiritually are you in or are you out

look me in the eye and tell me because if it's nothing but not all in, let me know now. Yeah. That's the hard conversation that you've got to have with Austin as early as this summer. And I think that we heard with their old deal, his old deal, that they talked two years in advance of it and some planning. And I'm sure that conversation will be had. But like, I know you think he's got flaws in his game.

And I know you think that he's something of a wimp. But no, hold on. Hold on. I don't consider anybody that's not capable of doing something a wimp. Okay. All right. Unwilling to flex his muscle. He is not what I believe he should be to maximize everything about him.

And that's his choice. And I respect that. So you've watched him play hockey the past month. Yes. Where do you have them in the world as a hockey play? As a centerman in the NHL? As a centerman, I told you this. I've talked to you this about maybe three years ago.

He is not my ideal centerman. He's not a facilitator. He's not a passer. He's a pure shooter. I don't think, like other number one centermen's, he has the ability to make others around him rise better. And I don't think he is a number one centerman. in its purest form.

That doesn't mean that there's not value in him. That doesn't mean I can't win with him. I just can't have him as my number one alpha dog. So you don't think Austin Matthews is a number one center. Was that what you just said? On a Stanley Cup team? Yes. I believe that.

So you think, so then I'm trying to put a number on it where he is in the world. Is he the 10th best center in the world, the 15th to 20th, the 35th for you? Way up there. Okay, well, then that's just fundamentally different than how I see it. even to me if you are the most critical viewer of Austin Matthews in the world, you got to have them as the 10th best or the 15th best. I don't know what best means.

Tell me what best means. Gives you the chance to win the game. Is he one of the most talented players? Is he the 10th most talented player? Yeah, possibly. But best means leading my team, being a captain, a spokesperson, person, having attitude, making guys around you better, making them accountable. I just can't imagine a world with you as general manager where you think the Leafs get better

after trading Matthews. And I know you feel this way about Nylander too. It's like to look at the only two guys who help you win games ago, there the problem is insane. Can I turn two guys into maybe three or four guys that can help me win? That's the question they got to ask now. Yeah, you can get a bunch of quarters for a dollar, four of them. But I just don't think it's as good as having that solid number one thing you can roll out there. You've had 10 years to prove this point and you failed every year, Justin.

I know. And Alex Ovechkin was that guy till his 13th year. These are good players that are hard to come by. And if you sell, you're praying to get three quarters of a Matthews in the draft. I just, he's not where the problem is. that's fine if he can be better if he has growth to do whatever you're not better by not having them

so I just go as they go into the off season this conversation with him has to happen are you going to be here do you want to be okay so I am not saying it's impossible to keep them

and retool and put yourself right back in the game that's what you're talking about right now yes absolutely then you better acquire some assets at the deadline to make sure you have to do that You're basically looking at the Boston Bruins as an example. I think that's a best case outcome.

I don't know. The caps are out of the playoffs now, but they've done the on-the-fly retool as well. Iles have done a quick flip. I know that those teams didn't rise to win a Stanley Cup, and I think the Leafs got their backs up against it, but unless you want to say at this point, which is maybe what you do want to do,

that we're being the Canucks, get rid of Horvac, get rid of Miller, get rid of Quinn Hughes, we're going to try again. which is one of the options here. Willie and Austin would fetch a whole boatload. Yeah, they would. They would. We're talking about a ton of assets,

but... I'm not ready for that. They're still too young. That's three to five years. That type of rebuild. Oh, my God. At least. Oh, my God.

Three to five years. Because you're actually, you're being Chicago, you're being Detroit, you're being San Jose, where you say, we're, our best players are going to be, they're not on the team yet. This rebuild to get to this point was a miracle.

How quickly it happened. Where they got Marner, they got Nylander, they win the lottery, they get Matthews, and all of a sudden they're good. Like, the Leafs getting to where they were from this point was way faster than it ever happens for any team. I know they haven't won anything, but like, I'm not, like, I'm watching Matthews last night and I know Kip, like, but I mean, he's just got such a heavy lift with this team right now. He still ends up with three points.

He's playing with two the worst defensive forwards in the league. He's doing everything he possibly can. Like, he's still really good. He's still really good. But hold on. I'll play Matthew. Austin Matthews just heard you say that and go, I'm going to be 30 in a couple of years.

Why do I want to stay and be a part of that? I think that's a very real outcome. Yeah. I actually think that if we're being all honest with the truth serum stuff here, I think Matthews is probably looking around going, oh, it's pretty bleak going for. That's why you have to look them in the eye and say, are you in or are you out?

Yeah. And if he goes, yeah, I am, then what? Move them. Move them. You're going to keep him, Sam? Oh, he just said he's in. But, you know, it's a little. You were in or out?

Yeah, I'm in. Okay. You know, like the level of, I think it's, I just, listen, he owes him. I mean, he owes more than that. I think he probably looks at Mitch and, and he doesn't want all his years here to go down the drain and come home to booze either. I think he's probably aware of if I'm going to leave. How is this going to happen?

To me, bad years happen and you're allowed to have bad seasons. And like teams have had bad seasons with good players. Listen, Kippa, just let me finish. I know you're... I'm fine. But there is an opportunity in going back to our original point here where if you sell off some of these pieces at the deadline, you have extra cast space, you have extra assets, and you have a new voice.

You can bring in and be good again next year. You have good players. Stop it. Why is that not a possible? Because you're uttering the same words when Marner left. You sat there and said, I love the cap space. They're going to go get a guy. He's going to be great.

And it didn't happen, Sammy. It didn't happen. But that's why the GM is sitting here on the hot seat. It's not going to happen this summer. And it's not going to happen. Why could it happen? Because they're not out there, Sammy. They're not out there.

Well, they could be in the summer with extra asset. So you just want to go past the deadline, just not move anything and just go into the offseason No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. What are you saying? I'm saying there's no easy fix here. Of course.

It's really hard to build a good hockey team. It's not happening. You're not going to get two or three second rounders for your guys and then turn around and be a good team by November or December. It's not happening. The one thing that's a possible it is. I would just watch the team that's in the least division do it to them last year. The Boston Bruins.

Yeah. We're now eight points ahead of the least. Okay. Get rid of OEL. Yeah. Okay. Done. and then look at your defense.

Boston did it. You're saying they still had Charlie McAvoy and Lindholm. Yeah. Two quality number ones and twos. You tell me you're going to compare Boston's retool with that blue line compared to getting rid of OEL and being left with Morgan Riley and the rest of them. I think Boston also doesn't have Matthews, Neil, under Nyes guys, you know, like it's different allocation of talent.

Yeah. Listen, so it's just you have a, you have, you have one of the best, you just have Swainman, you get Swayman and two quality A guys after your retool. Well, listen. I mean, he's have no, no goalie right now you can trust and zero on the blue line. Okay. So there's fold up shop. Quit trying. Trade everybody and just.

You don't seem to have a point about what should happen. You got to pick a lane. You can't just say nothing works. Just quit and be the Canucks, be the worst team the league now for five years. And you have Matthews and Nealander on your roster. just suck. Get ready. That's the move.

For the rebirth of pain. Okay. And if it's a cell. Then train them all now. But this is the thing. Then the GM thing has to happen. And then someone has to come in and say, I'm doing Matthews and Elander trades.

Here we go. Tough start. But it would show a lot of chutzpah. If I was to guess right now, they'd try the retool. Yeah, I think so. I mean, that's obviously the move. Like, it's risky, but.

Very risky. Austin Matthews guys don't come around a whole lot. And I've watched his whole career. I've watched every game that he's ever played. He's the best leaf that like, and it's just. As long as he's in, as long as he's in, I think there's a chance that they're still going to try to work around him. He's flawed for me, guys.

Well, obviously. Right? Yeah, but it's easy to say everyone's flawed. That's totally fine. Like they're flawed. They haven't won. Everyone who doesn't win is flawed. Like it's just,

you just stop trying. Well, yeah, I get it. I get that he's not the perfect guy. I think that imperfect guys have been surrounded in the right places in ways that have led to success. And that's what you're trying to do. And you hope for individual growth too, which is possible too.

We've seen that from players over the years as well. Have we got a mailbag? I don't care. I got it. At least Kipper wants to rebuild the whole team, sell everybody off. be the Canucks. Maybe we'll get McKenna. It'd be fun years. Fun years to do the show.

Yeah, I love it. I'll take a quick break. I can't wait just to watch. Yeah, let's go. All right. Let's, okay. Hold on. All right. We'll have a discussion on, McKenna. Yeah, great. After the break. Great. Yeah, I can't wait. You'll be good in six years.

All right. Catch your breath. More real Kipprin-born after these words. Hey, it's Matt Markeese. And I'm Mike Feuda. We're discussing the top stories of the day across the NHL and the hockey world. Weekdays at noon. and hockey show on SportsNet 590 The Fan and wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the program.

Nick Kippros, Justin Board and Sammy McKee. It's the Leaf Hour edition of our program. Just talking NHL draft, McKenna, before the break. So, as we know, the Leafs gave the Boston Bruins their first round pick.

I hadn't heard. For Carlo. Which is top five protected. Couldn't get top 10 on that. So right now, let's just say your game to game from the pick being 12th overall to maybe seventh overall. If you sell off your pieces, which you're talking about, there's a good chance it'll be closer to seven. Don't you just completely tank and get your pick back at five? I got to tell you.

So I put thought into this like a lot of people. I know. Uttering those words. I am disgusted. I want to go have a shower right now. But I looked at this, Kip, I think it's too far to fall. I don't think they can get there. Like, they have a lot of losses.

They got a lot of losses. They would have to lose. I don't know. They'd have to win 10 of their next 30 games or whatever. Lose. Sorry, they would have to win 10. lose 20. Oh, yeah, yeah.

They probably have to lose 20 of their last 28, 29 games. Okay. That's, I mean, they got, I know not your favorite guys, but Matthews and Nylander kind of, they'll do a couple things in a couple games that'll win a couple. Or they could suffer more groin pulls and suffer really, like maybe they just, they need a break after the Olympics. Yeah, okay, now we're talking.

Matthew Nize's hip still barking at him after. Maybe you can have some minor surgery. Here's my nightmare that I have in my head. that they do it. They plummet all the way and they finished fifth from the bottom. They get the sixth thing. Well, no, if someone, you know,

the draft lottery, someone jumps them. They move to six. Yeah. You know, the draft lottery is right there for anyone to jump and slide in. So you actually have to finish fourth from the bottom to feel any comfort. So they keep your pick.

I know, I don't know you don't want to do this, Kipper, but if they were to sell at the debtor or try to retool. Yeah. Can I read, can I say? the names that I'm thinking? Absolutely, Sam. Are we ready for that?

Send me a manifesto. I don't have a manifesto. That was the one thing only. No, it's not. People are tweeting. Buddy, we're bringing it back. For what? I only, I'm not going to unnaturally do a manifesto.

It's just that day I needed it. So, starting with Lawton. That pains me to say, but Lawton, because I love him. Okay. And Philly's talking about how they miss them. Quiet bench in Philly. Bobby McMahon.

Stetcher. another heartbreaker Joy's Boys Carlo Could I interest you in Carlo Yeah for sure Okay So that's five four guys

All of Reckman Marson Can I interest you in that Like I'm not saying all these guys are going to go I mean he still need to ice a NHL hockey team But these all are Machelli Could I interest you Machelli And I'm sorry Nick

But your son Nick Robertson That's the that's the that's the however many guys, seven guys that I'm, I think he's just saying, Max Domi has value right now. He has played,

yeah, Max Domi has value. But then pick up the phone, right? It makes that decision. There's a lot of guys, serviceable guys. I would be looking at going, I'd love to have him in my lineup right now as a depth guy. Okay.

I think that would be a great place to start. You know, that's the type of guy where it's like probably not moving the needle for you. But he's just traded almost half the team. But I'm not, I just said, I just said I'm not trading all those guys. I'm just saying if I'm

Trilliving and I'm sending out the email about who's available, those guys are on the list. Here's who you're not trading. Matthews, Tavares, Nyes, Nealander. Not Tavars? So in my retool, I envision in a short while winning a Stanley Cup with Matthews is my number one

Senator, and John Tavares, probably at 37 to 38 is my number two centerman. No, I think he's playing wing. he's playing wing on your very good team that you're building here yeah it's a heavy lift but you got to try like you can okay out of all those names how many how many uh first rounders are coming back probably one well definitely ohel there's the opportunity to get one i think mcmann could if you leave this till march four five six and the oilers or someone

like that are going got a big body like i think there's a chance of you think you can resign him, he can get you one. Someone gets a little squirly close to the deadline. So let me present this plan to you, Kipper. Okay? You try to do my plan. You do the off season. You build this mega team that I'm speaking of.

And things start to go off the rails and they suck again next year and it's no good. And they're getting the same injury luck and all this different stuff. The goalies still suck. All this stuff that's happening. Then we can talk about it. But I don't think you can have one bad season and then just quit. That's how I feel about it. They've been a good enough team.

They've been a playoff team for nine straight. Like having one bad season with these guys in their 28, 29 season doesn't mean you have to shut down the whole franchise. That's just how I feel about it. But if they suck halfway through next year. Yeah. Well, that's why I kept bringing up Quinn Hughes. I think that it totally changes the math if you're January next year and they're bad again. It's like, well, things are going to happen here.

Sorry, mailbag. We scream for too long. But you do not think that's a possibility? Like, I think it's, I think, I think, I think, I think. Thinking that you could keep Willie, Matthews, and Tavares, and we haven't even talked about Morgan Riley, but thinking those three guys, you could still build around and have a competing team is fools gold.

I think the easiest thing to do is to be the guy you're being today. I think it's easy and I don't think to just say, that won't work, that won't work, that won't work. Because it is. I agree with you that a lot of these things are challenging, may not happen, probably won't happen, but to not have any alternative solution, unless you're saying,

which you won't definitively say, that they need to blow it up. Yeah. Then if that's it, that's hard to say. There you go. There you go. I was,

they need to blow it up. 53 minutes. That's the right answer, but I don't think they want to go that route. Yeah. Right? I don't think that they feel like.

And I love that because I think there's a really good case that that's the right answer. But I don't think that you can do it. Like I just don't, because of the things you're saying about giving up on a group and finding these elite talents and, you know, there's still more to it. And they're asking Sammy to check his emotions for three years. And they're still selling tickets. And there's still, there's so much more to it. My favorite activity, I just get to watch them suck for five seasons.

Can't wait. I'm just saying, can't wait. I think there's a chance that that's the correct. answer, but I am not in that camp. I would be, let's try this way, and if we're wrong, we're wrong, at least we try. What an hour. What an hour. Blowing up.

What do we do now? Like I said, I need a shower. Oh, my God. All right. Just warming up here. We go national next. Cal Clutterbuck. Oh, what a pain in the ass he was when he played.

Yep. Former NHLer, now doing excellent work with the New York Islanders on MSG Network. He'll join us next when we return to Real Kipper and Born.