Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Rethinking Tavares' Second Line

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee look back on the Toronto Maple Leafs' loss to the Ottawa Senators on Saturday. They discuss the rough third period, concerns around the John Tavares-led second line, whether Nick Paul could step into the 2C role, how Gavin McKenna is handling the spotlight, the power play still finding its footing, and Tim Stützle's dive. Later, Sportsnet.ca Leafs writer Luke Fox stops by (36:25) to help tee up the team's matchup against the Nashville Predators ahead of a challenging three-game road trip, share early impressions of the d-core, and discuss what went wrong for them against Ottawa.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

kicking off a brand new week on the Real Kipper and Born show. We're live on Sportsnet 360, 590, The Fan in Toronto, streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. Also, our show is available on Apple Podcasts and YouTube. If you can't catch it live, give us a download. This hour of Real Kipper and Born brought to by Nick, Justin, and Sammy. It's true. Did you catch that, Sammy? I did.

I did. I almost said it, but we owe that to them on the national hour. And we will pay our tribute then. We will, for sure. All right. As I said, Nick, Justin and Sammy, Derek Brandeo, Jake the Snake, Schultz. It is our Toronto Maple Leaf edition of our program. We start there Saturday night, Battle of Ontario,

much like the Montreal Canadians, maybe obviously a goal short. Maybe a crossbar and in, a post and in. Could have been the difference. But overall, J.B, we sit here after three home games. They're one and two. They are set up for tomorrow night against Nashville. I imagine Samuel kind of joke around that it's a must win.

But you really... I'm not joking. It's a must. don't really want to go on this extended road trip after Tuesday night, one and three. Leafs schedule after that. What are they got? Vegas, Colorado, and Utah all on the road, which I believe is, you know, as good a three-team trio as you're going to get on a road trip this year. In the Atlantic Division this year, we talked a little bit about just not falling behind.

You know, like, it's not like the Leafs have to come out of the gates gangbusters. But yeah, that Nashville game is going to be pretty darn big because you go on that road trip could be staring at a pretty deep hole if you don't get one here. All right, we got a few Kippers, clippers. But before then, you want to just get our thoughts on Saturday night in particular because I think, once again, I think we see signs that some things are different.

And then you have that third period where it's like, okay, didn't we witness that a lot last year where they're outshot 14 to 1? and Brovsky's keeping it close here but it could have been a lot worse

that third period. Yeah, you know, it's funny because it depends what your bar for expectations are or what you're looking for. Definitely better than last year you and I were texting about that second period.

I believe you said you thought that was as good as they have looked basically including all of last year in a while. Then to follow it up with that third period, that kind of looked more

like last year, I know they had a couple of penalties they took, which led to some of the shots against, but they're figuring things out. There are pieces that you can like and things that you have to be concerned about. Obviously, top line's been excellent. Second line's been the opposite of that. So some work to do. What did you see, Sammy?

Yeah, I see a team that still looks like a lot of stranger moments where they're just really trying to figure things out. And like you said, that second line to me is what I've got myself zoomed in on here and how it's not working. Like it's really, really hurting them at times. I like the third line. Fourth line leaves me wanting in the top line. I mean, it's been unbelievable by the advanced stats.

They get two goals on the ledger on Saturday night. But yeah, like, I think there's something there. But like you've said, getting behind the eight ball here early, going out in this road trip, like, this schedule was kind of set up for you to make a little bit of hay at home. You know, I know Montreal is supposed to be pretty good this year. Ottawa is not going to be terrible. But, like, you fall behind the eight ball here. You head on that road trip.

you're trying to get to know each other. I don't know. I'm not like concerned about it or whatever, but like they need to kind of find it here in a hurry. I think there are parts of it that look really good, though. Okay, let's go to head coach Jim Hiller on his overview of the game and then we'll focus in on that second line. Clip one.

Well, I mean, I think we needed to finish some of the chances we had. We had enough chances to win the game. There's no question. And then some careless penalties. I thought the two penalties in the third period really hurt us just took our momentum away a little bit give them some life and they pushed hard. Did you have any issue with Marchenko's penalty?

I haven't looked at it that closely, but it's a stick battle. A stick comes up. It's a, you know, it's a penalty. That's just the way it works. You didn't give us your sort of overview. Do you agree with Hiller's assessment? I found both games against Montreal and Ottawa that they were close, but they just weren't good enough.

So I see still signs that say that say that things are a little different, but I think there's some concerns. I don't know, Sammy mentioned that he's not that concern. I am concerned on a couple of things. And yes, that second line for sure. And obviously, the McKenna thing that plays into that second line on what are the expectations. here, how much you want to push, how much you don't want to push, where's his fit, where's that, how's this play out on the second line?

Signs I saw it of Radish are good. He's starting to settle in, he's got some compete. You can tell he's going to be that guy that needs to be the threat on the back end. Yeah. Because outside of that, they don't really have one. He played almost five minutes more than the next highest D man. And Bobrowski kept him in. Yeah.

Right. But Bob looked good. No quibbles there? No quibbles. Yeah, okay. Right. So, and then there's the Austin one too where it's fairly slow start. He had a, when we text Saturday night, there was off of a good start to the second period.

Yep. He got the goal. Then he, they followed it up. There was a real good stretch there where they were just taking it to Ottawa. and keeping pucks in deep and pushing. But they couldn't maintain it, right? They couldn't keep it throughout the rest of the hockey game, unfortunately. Yeah, you know, it's one of those things where it's like they clearly,

like the Nielander crossbar off the goalies back, off the post. Yeah. You know, Austin hits post. It felt like they were all around it and it could have gone a different way. But I think if you do want to quibble with that sort of thing, it's like, well, it shouldn't come down to an inch or whatever. You're allowed to out play a team by. more than that.

So yeah, let's talk about where it needs to take strides in that second line. We all agree. Do you have it as McKenna is holding them back? Do you think he's in a bad position

to have success? I just think that the fit between the three of them and there's not one defensive conscience on that line. And that's a concern too. So I'm equally

concerned about John Tavares and whether or not this is the year where it kind of really slides for him at his age and the fact that he was never a foot speed guy and how long can you hang in there with him as a second-line centerman and whether or not you need to pivot off of that. So that's what happens when you're plus 35-36 and you were never a great skater to begin with. there's always those concerns that when it hits you it as i don't know who said it berkeley maybe somebody on a telecast that uh father time is undefeated and i don't know where john is on that yeah it's uh he coming off a 31 goal season 38th year before um has lots of high danger chances

by the numbers but it doesn't look but a lot of it was really still for his ability to produce on the power play. Five on five, the last few years, has been a major concern. The question is, is this the year where it just, it's like hitting a freight train for him, five on five. Yeah. I thought the third period in particular on Saturday night was maybe the worst period. I've seen him play as a leaf.

Like, I can't tell you, I mean, the power play, losing draws and the power play, we've talked about that. Puck falling off his stick in big spots. play killing all this different stuff like what an older player that doesn't quite have it anymore kind of looks like was what it looked like in the third period to me and i know he's had downstretched throughout his career in Toronto and like there's been times where we've kind of written him off and he hasn't looked great and all that stuff and he kind of bounces back but the worry for me would be usually don't come in the first week of the season no and i usually he's very good at the start of

seasons he comes out hot he really does well in the first month summer training right yeah yeah and it's just for him to start like this has me a little bit concerned. So I think it's reasonable to say he's coming off a 31 goal campaign. If he's worse this year, if he takes a step back and he's a 23 goal guy, if you're getting 23 goals, you've got to do some other stuff, you know, and the other stuff is tough to imagine coming very easy to him at this point. So we do have two clips from Jim Hiller weighing in on the second line. Why don't we start with clip three from Hiller?

So the first one's from after the game on Saturday, and then he talked about it a little bit more today. So let's start with clip three from out of it from after. after the game. Hiller Climper. Yeah, I mean, I thought they started really well. I thought they started really well. And, you know, you'd like him to get a little bit more again.

But, you know, there were some flashes there for sure. They had some good luck. First period, I thought Gavin was really skating. I thought Willie skated pretty well all night. And John had some looks, you know. Just not going in here for that crew right now. Okay. Willie was skating.

Gavin was skating. John had some luck. You're not going to get a bad word out of it. him no matter what. Too early. Let's just, let's just call it. No, now, right now. Maybe he's feeling they're a little vulnerable.

He's not, it's, it's positive vibes for him. He's still relationship building with a lot of these guys. So that's what you're going to get. Okay. Out of Hiller. Okay. Let's follow up with the next day. That's from this morning.

I practiced. Well, well, I would say this, not just that line, but I think all the lines, and some have done it a little bit better than others. But that line probably could, could, uh, do it better than they have. And we worked on that in practice today. It's just a little closer together in the ozone. They're having a, we all are winning our battles,

having three guys close and bringing some pucks, you know, to the dirty areas a little quicker. So I think that'll be a focus for not just them, but everybody. So yeah, deflecting it, making it about everybody. That's a classic coach trope. We've seen that for, Keith did that, Broube did that. That's something that they do.

I just, again, you want to bring McKen, in closer. He's got to feel more comfortable. I don't think he gained a pound over the weekend. So you're still dealing with a 162, 164 pound guy. And you're asking him now to go kind of make some room for each other. I just, it's a tough, it's a tough ask on McKenna. Now, he didn't take the optional skate Sunday. that might be like one of those things where I'm like, buddy, just go out there, you know, for me anyways. But what I do like is they haven't made them available since like Friday. You like that?

Yes, I told you. Protect the guy. Like, don't throw them out there. I feel like it's easier if you go out there and wear it and talk about it. And like people are more understanding than this. You know, they did that with Willie and Mitch and all those guys when they are coming up. Well, that was lose rule, right? Yeah.

You couldn't talk to the meet if you're a rookie, right? Yeah. That was a thing? Yeah, it was a thing. And to me, it's like, just come out here and be a part of it. I don't, I personally think that's unnecessary. I'm with you, though. I like to see you guys play their way through it.

I thought his back check on the goal, the one where no one covered for radish on the rush. You know, like, that is a classic. This is why you guys missed the playoffs last season. Totally. Totally. Clearly, you have a defenseman up. And even the Shabbat goal. Like Stetcher with the 40-foot breakout pass right into Nick Paul in the neutral zone,

and he gets pinched right away. And the next thing, you know, you're down one-nothing. It's like, guys, am I seeing video of last season? Yeah. No, I'm with you. I haven't loved Statcher in the McKenna back check, which I blame him entirely. But you got to go on the same side of the post as the other guy stop with him. The puck may end up there.

Didn't love that. You know, the one thing. going into these next few set of games. Like, I actually think that if you went into this year being like, these are the lines we think could work. We're going to try them. Give them three games, for sure. You've got to just see it.

I don't like one game. We switch it up two games. It's been three games here. They practiced with the same lines today, McKenna Tavares, Nielander. It can't happen for Tuesday night. It doesn't work. It's like, oh, only a little bit of the reportings in.

And so far, this data, it's not been great. It's not great. It doesn't work. To your point, McKenna can't win Pucks in the offensive zone. Hang on to Pucks. Willie's never been a, you know, crash and bad guy. And John can't get to them. They need someone else to help them stay on offense.

Clip five, Derek. Hiller talked about, you got to ask about having patience with his lines. And to your point, CLEAR looks like he's going to have some patience again going into Tuesday night. Let's go clip five, please, Derek. I'm patient. Well, I would say it's a question for the players. I hope it just lets them know. that listen, the record right now is not exactly where we want it to be.

I would say I think we could have won all three games if things would have went a different way. So let's just work on our process. We feel like we've spent a lot of time focusing on some different things without the puck, and we wanted to get that done first, and I think we've been pretty good that way. Today was a larger emphasis on some offense, and so maybe we've pushed that to the side a little bit. We've got it in there today, had a good practice, so let's see it, translate and then you know you can only be patient for so long but we'll we'll stick with it for now

like it is an 84 game season you want to be able to say we gave it i i said you have to stay 500 yeah you go one and three you you could be staring at two and six three and seven really fast here yeah and it's not well that's not season over by any it is like, God, it's a tough division to start digging out of a hole. So, yeah, you can't be too, too patient. Can I, if he's, if he, if he, would he be worried at all about the perception of him coming in here, his first year as the coach, putting these lines together and having it after three games being like, I'm going to switch everything up and like making it look like he's a reactionary guy

or changing the narrative of himself or whatever. Like, like, I know, I know. But like, do you think that weighs in his mind at all? like it's his first. I think there's something to be said to that for sure that you don't, you, you don't, you don't want to look like your,

your knee jerk. I think you make a valid point here. And there's also the, not everybody's an expert out there that wants the lines change, right? Right. So you're not, you're not. But like Kip.

Laying down for the, for the masses who want change. So yeah, I think, I think there's a little bit of that. And I don't know how stubborn that they'll end up looking if it doesn't turn around quickly as early as tomorrow night. I can see them, and this could include the new general manager saying, we want to give all these different lines a good enough sample size.

We're going to do five games no matter what happens because we think it's going to work. But the only issue is the second line right now. And I know Austin's not off to a great start. I mean, okay, you got a goal Saturday night. Okay, it's a start. I don't care. And I don't care. The analytics people are just salivating.

We are really just talking about the second line here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is the big deal if they get off to a slow start and you push McKenna back and you bring Cowan up or Du Hame? I'll bring Dohame up on that line just to go and crash a few bodies or get in on a puck and let John get back into what he does best. And that's working around the net a little bit here. Is what everybody's going to call you a failure for moving McKenna back?

Even if McKenna plays third or fourth line for the first 10 games and has one assist after 10 games, that's fine. That's the end of the world for everybody. That is the development where you go, yeah, you remember his first 10 games, he had to figure it out. He started the bottom of the lines. That's a failure for everybody.

So I totally agree. But do you think that Hiller is feeling the pressure to get him going offensively? And that's the reason he's keeping him there. You know, you can't draw blood out of a stone, Sammy. I agree. You know, it's like because we wish this doesn't mean Hillers got magic beans right now. You're right. Come on.

So what's more important? Everyone loves the third line and I love the third line too. You know, Cowan, Paul, Sizzins have been very good together. But is it more important to have a better second line or a better third line? I think most people would say you want your top two lines to be good. is Nick Paul not what they need John DeVarres to be right now, a guy who is defensively responsible, gets in on Pucks, four checks, heavy, net front,

all the things that they are talking about needing to create more ozone time is just Nick Paul to me. So just give him Paul as a center. You know, Tavares maybe doesn't have to play quite as much. Maybe that gives him a little more pop in his legs. I don't know. I just, they do need to do something with that line. again, I get wanting to have patience in a sample size,

but if the results are so bad, so early, so consistently, I just think you got to do it. They're really bad results. Like, I don't know if people are aware, but like, you know, among lines that have played 20 minutes, whatever, it's like the worst results in the lead. Yeah. You know, they're getting filled in.

Meanwhile, the top line is actually the top line by expected goals. Yeah. Go ahead. Nick Paul is not a second light sentiment, but if Tavares, continues to kind of trend in this direction. Nick Paul is a number two sentiment on the Toronto Maple Leafs. And those are important distinctions, right?

On the Toronto Maple Leafs. On the Toronto Maple Leafs today. Yeah. And yes, I am with you. I'll slide Nick up there. Yeah. And so I don't know if you want to start, maybe it's being too dramatic,

but then if you feel like Sizzins play center instead of Tavar, If you wanted to play wing, you have options. It feels like whatever line Easton Cowan is going to be on. It reminds me of Zach Hyman. I know this is not permanent. But Hyman was like a band-aid for the Leafs. Like, fix that line, give him Hyman. Fix that line, give him Hyman.

I feel like Cowan can be that for basically whoever he plays with right now. Much like the Morgan Riley conversation that we had earlier in their season, like after the first game. And I think he's been better in the past couple games. I'm not going to, I don't think he's been nearly as bad in the past couple as he wasn't the first game. But the thing that worries me with DeVaris is much like the same thing that worried me with Riley is that they're going to be hesitant to take him out of key roles because of what he means to the organization and how long he's been here and what he means to everybody. He's a roommate or roommate.

I think he owns the house. I think Gab McHenna is his roommate. But like I just hope that they don't continue to push him into key roles because of what he used to be. Like Jeter playing shortstop in his final season? Like, you know, it's just, we're all kind of seeing this in real time, and it's still three games. He can get it going, I guess. But I just, I hope they don't prolong it because of what he has meant.

Is that fair? Yeah, it does make sense. Hiller did comment on elevated, potentially elevating Cowen, which is relevant to this conversation. Talk about that. Clip six from Hiller, please. I mean, we have those discussions, not just with Easton, but with all players.

Like, how can we, can we do this better? Are there better combinations based on what we've seen so far? and if we do this, and this is always the second question, right? The one question is easy. Hey, let's just do this. But what does that do? There's always unintended consequences. So those are the things that you have to have really good discussion on

and get different points and counterpoint. And just to make sure you're not trying to fix one thing and hurt another. The lineups kind of built like you may hurt a lot of things in the lineup by shuffling stuff around. And I like Easton Cowan. And we talked about this to end last week. But like, this guy's still developing too. He's still learning. He's still getting stronger.

He's like, he's not going to come in and fix everything for you just by bumping them up. So unfortunately, this is a lineup that you plug one hole. You may open another one up. You have four holes and three pieces of gum, you know, put them where, wherever the biggest problem is. And right now it's pretty clear where the biggest hole is. Can I call Captain Hindsight for a second? Sure. Captain Hindsight on the phone.

Yep, call him. So we talked about this a little bit towards the end of last year when this conversation started to bubble up. But Elias Pedersen was free last year. Oh, geez. You could have had him for whatever. Yeah. Okay?

I know. And listen, I know what happened out there. I know the conversations that were around him, how people, it makes too much money, all this different stuff, doesn't have the dog in him like he used to. I've watched a couple of Canucks games on late. Like, he's flying around. I'm just saying he's hitting.

Maybe they should have traded for him because there's a glaring hole at the 2C. You didn't know, I guess, that Tavares was going to look like this. Yeah, you did. You did. You kind of did. And you could have had him for nothing. I just, I'm not even trading for Patterson. I'm not saying that I even said,

but we talked about it a little bit at the end of last year, but we had a couple texts about it. I'm just saying there's a glaring hole. Patterson needs to go to a market with one beat reporter. He's going to be a great hurricane. That guy would be a mess in this town. Okay. A mess.

Okay. He is sensitive and temperamental, and this would be the worst market for Patterson. Okay. Fair question. I'm just saying. We have a couple more things on Gavin, on Gavin McKenna and how he's handling it and all that. Do we want to continue to dwell there? Is that wasted time?

Oh, no, no. I want to hear it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it on how Gavin's handling the spotlight. Quit bait, please. I think he's doing really well. like, you know, he's young and he just seems unflappable to me. You know, I'm sure he wishes he had more right now, of course.

That's obvious. But I haven't seen it affect him. When I talk to him, he got a smile on his face, and he walks around here the same as he did two months ago and two weeks ago. So I think that's a really important quality. You know, there's a great quote from Willie Nealander to see if I can pull it up immediately on Gavin McKenna, where he said he's going to be a great player. It's going to happen.

and when it does, it's going to come in waves. A lot of waves. And I think we all agree with that. Maybe not. Like it may not happen this year. It may not. Well, I think it'll get a pointer to, I hope. Yeah.

No, no, but the waves, like, I don't know what waves means. And I don't like, you know, I think you had a wish list, Sammy, of 40 to 50 points, 55 points for McKenna. I think we settled on 15 goals, 35 assists. Is that what we settled on? Today, and I'm not telling you what tomorrow brings or what he'll look like next week or next month. But it's the, it's, today it doesn't seem attainable. Yeah, it seems, it seems tough to envision. You know, there are still plays, he makes that little sauce spot pass to DeVarra's in the game.

Yeah, off the maybe their best rush chance all season. You know, and it's like, that's not many people make that little play. It's super nice. You know, like they're, these things are going to pay dividends for him. You see some guys who struggled in their early career and see it's starting to come for Lafranier and Shane Wright and not saying he's in that class of guy, but it takes time. So, you know, I think if you're a least fan, you have to hang your hat on the fact that he's done this at different levels, did this in college where he found it throughout the year. And by the end of the year was really dangerous. I think he's got the hockey IQ to find it within this season.

I do. Listen, and he's going to have, I've read a lot of stuff that it's the worst era ever. to be bad in because there's people that are really creative on the internet that make funny jokes and great memes and all this different stuff. Yukon Yakupov was like I saw like I forget some sense fan Jack he tweeted out a picture Bieber wearing the Leafs gear like I just he's going to be okay you have to you're going at this stuff and but he may be on the internet he may be seeing this stuff it's early I do worry I do worry I would worry if I'm the Leafs about what's going on in his head right now too

You know, he does seem confident. But that, I'm not, it may be too confident. It may be no good. It's not helping him that he's confident. You know what he needs to do? Feel like a rookie. That's what he needs to do. He feels, he needs to feel like, like a guy coming in who has to prove something.

He needs to be like me and every other rookie that comes in. Speak when you're spoken to. you know, feel like every shift and every practice matters that you're not given anything and you need to earn it. And like, I'm sorry, but I'll give you an example of why I think he's not in a perfect, well, not a perfect, but in the right frame mind as a typical rookie is he didn't take an optional morning skate to open up the season because he's worried about being tired.

Oh, I thought it was because his family was there. So, again, love families, very important. Not my priority. My family in the stands. I'm sorry, I'm going to be with my teammates, and I'm going to be on the ice. I'm just saying that I've never in my life heard an 18-year-old who's never played a game.

in the NHL worried to start the season, to start the season. That I'm worried about being tired in back-to-back games. I'm, well, again, let's not put those words into his mouth. I don't know if that was right. If that was somewhere that he said that. I didn't hear that. However, yesterday. I thought I read, I thought he read that he was concerned about being tired or energy.

I'm more bothered that he didn't skate yesterday. See, again. The math is on the ice. Second example of, of where, Where are you right now? You can't act like you've been in the league 10 years. Yeah. It's, you know, this is a, everyone is always going to watch his first games.

Did he get points? Did he get points? And when you don't, people scrutinize, you know, a couple assists or whatever, and maybe people feel differently about it. And that's whatever. I go back to today's coach who says, you take what you need, you know yourself best. And to have the confidence, this coach called them unfil,

flappable today to be like, I know what I need best. Be flappable. It might help you. Flap a little. Flap. Right? You need some flap. It's normal.

It's normal behavior. Yeah. I'm this and I'm with you on it. I get what the coaches would say. I get what you would say. It will help development to experience what doesn't work or, you know, all of that. Well, does helping his development keep hammering him out there with the worst line in the NHL shift after shift?

That's a better point. Like, searching for him in a point. to put them in a place to succeed. Don't keep putting them out there with three guys, like two guys that are just, put them in Sison's spot with two guys who go get pucks. I don't know. It just, it's a tough spot to start for the exact reasons that we're having. Here's, here's a, you know, would that line be any worse off if it was Bo grew in that spot and he took Sizn's spot and Sizn's played on the fourth line?

You know, something, some way to get some support. You've paid a high price, but it appears like you are deeper on your third or fourth lines now. Yeah. So use them. Mm-hmm. Bump them up. Yeah. Right?

And let them buy you time. Nobody's saying any of your guys are legit top six forwards. But they can be to help the kid out for a game, two games, a week. Yeah. A month of results for McKenna is not going to, to your point, 10 games mean anything. This is all the, okay, here's the speed the treadmill's at. Try running. Yeah.

And if you can't do it, you know, maybe we'll slow it down a couple of paces and work back up to that pace. But you got to help him out a little bit. I love Mark Jenko, how he looks, boys. I think he really has a dynamic look to him. I've been really impressed through three games with him. The one thing, too, and even if you go back when they were talking about Rantanin, right? with the Leafs? Yep.

The conversations were, but what would he look like with Matthews? Right? And I think it's still a kind of a question mark for me is ultimately what will these two guys look like? Like it was real clear, the look of Matthews and Marner. Really clear.

One's, you know, got vision and distributor. I look at Marchenko and I look at Matthews Sometimes I see the same guys trying the same different things. They both like handling the puck. They both like coming in off a rush. They're both shooters. How is it going to ultimately fit between those two guys? If only there was a guy on the team that has really high-end skill

and is a great passer and is a calling card and got drafted first overall for his passing, if only there was a guy on the team like that. I'm so torn on that because I know it's obviously a fit. Have you not been paying attention to our conversation on McKenna, of the last 10 minutes. I have. I have. I have.

We're pulling him back. But I do admit that like it's such like it's such a great spot for him and they are so obviously want him to get there. Right? That's the ultimate like perfect spot for him. It's the perfect spot. It is. Two guys who push the D back with a guy who slows the game down like Marner did and dishes.

Yeah. It's you know I think he would look great there. They're going to do it. They are going to do it. Yeah. So it's an. matter of, they really wanted him to earn it. And since the earning it hasn't happened, it's like, oh, can you just do it?

I don't know. So give me a time frame here. And how much do you need to see of the earning to get him there? Or would you just throw him up there anyways? I love that question. That is what they need to be sitting there saying. We all agreed that they wanted him to earn it, not hand him PP1, you know, kind of work your way to that spot.

So it doesn't look like we handed it to you. and he's not earning it so far. And so they're going, God, we really wanted to do that. I think we need a couple points before he hammer him up there. Yeah. I think maybe his first, you know, let's see, let's wait until he gets to four to five points before you start thinking about putting him on the top line. They did pull the goalie, and Easton Cowan was looking over the butt end of his stick

on the bench while McKenna was out there. So they are kind of going, yeah, but, I mean, he's a guy who can make plays happen. So, God, that how reminiscent. And that first, they get the first power play goal. You know, Radish sets up Marchenko for his first, but great. Which, by the way, his heavy shot draws everyone away from Marchenko. It was great play. Good finish.

But that power play in the third when, I forget it was, haul him down. The way that looked, I was like, that just gave me flashbacks to last year. I was like, holy crap, that looked. Big spot in the game early in the season. You need a goal. They couldn't even gain the zone. They couldn't win the draw. They couldn't gain the zone.

It's like, oh, my God. It's painful. It was painful. They worked on it today. We have quotes on that. If we want to... Yeah, let's go to the power play quote. All right.

Listen to that. Clip two. Clip two. Hill or clip two, yeah. Well, I mean, a great goal, right? Really well done. Great execution. But we needed it to come up big at the end.

You know, that's the one that we all leave the building with, right? We just weren't dangerous. So I think there was some really good moments. But if you evaluate the very last one, when we really needed something to happen, you know, we were disappointed in that one. Why do you think that was given what was on the line at that point? I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, give them credit.

They did a good job. We just did not execute. We had early puck possession in their zone, and we turned it over. All right. Great set of Mets, though, in tight, eh, for such a big man. Yeah, he's got a unique, like, toolkit. He can do some different things. Like them.

Liking them early. Oh, I'm just seeing online that the Hot for Hockey campaign has been canceled. We can talk about that in the national hour. Wow. I told you guys that Friday. Do you want to, you know what? But they had, they didn't sign off on it. The players didn't sign off on it.

They didn't know was coming. Last thing before we go. It's Tudsela, man. You're embarrassing. I'm sorry. It's a disgrace to, it's a disgrace to. The stick. Anytime anyone goes anywhere near him,

he's flopping around like a fish. It's embarrassing. He's looking for, like it's a soccer move. Well, I feel like I'm watching a World Cup again. It's horrible. It's hockey. It's like somebody's got to find him. That's the populist red meat we need.

Well, no, it just drives me insane. Well, I am the populist. It drives me insane. Watching the game, it's a disgrace. So slow motion showed that there wasn't. No, of course he didn't hit him. He snaps his head back. He's got a sniper in the crowd.

He's embarrassed. See, what needs to happen is that you just stop giving him any benefit of the doubt. And you don't call it. Even the blatant ones, you don't call it. you don't call them. But that's a huge spot in the game. They get the goal on that, right? That was when the power play, they score the goal on.

It's like it's a brutal dive, it's embellishment. That should not be allowed. That's been a cadre here. They kind of stopped calling it when he was trying to draw on. But Stootsley doesn't play for the Leafs, so that won't. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay, we need to go.

Okay, let's take a quick break when we return at sportsnet. com's Luke Fox. I'm hearing it's a special day today for Luke. We'll tell you all about it when we return to Real Kipper and Born. diving deep into Leifes, Raptors, Jays, and NFL. The Jady Bunk is podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in studio. Nick Caprio's Justin Boren, Samuel McKee.

Let's welcome in Luke Fox, Leifes and NHL writer for Sportsnet.com. I had to look twice. I thought you were wearing a New York Yankee hat. Oh, no, no, no. Baseball season's over for me now. So Luke, our Sammy tells me it's a very special day for you today. Every day is special. No, but was there an email today, Sammy, on Luke?

Oh, there was. Can you read a little bit of the email? He put me on the spot. He's his 15 anniversary. 15 years at Sportsnet. And the email says he's been the most red writer on the website every year he's worked here. But when you throw it like a hundred. hundred articles a day.

How can you know? Volume shooter. I'm a volume shooter. Just for the record. That's awesome. I'm like, I don't know, 26 or 27 years here. You know how many people wished me

a 15th anniversary? Oh, you had a bit of a hiatus. Zero. Back when you were here, they probably gave you gold watch. Zero. 25, a zero. Hey, Nick, do want trade salaries?

Luke, happy anniversary. I'll send you an email. I just want to wish you a happy anniversary. Thanks, thanks. All right, Luke, not labeling it a must-win game, but you really don't want to go out on a road trip if there's Toronto Maple Leafs with a one-and-three record now, do you? No, absolutely not.

And, you know, Jim Hiller was talking today about, how, you know, in his mind, they could have won all three games. And I'm like, sure, that's true. I mean, they're three-one goal games. But if Anthony Stollers doesn't play really well against the Islanders, you might have lost all three, too. So this is a big critical game, as critical as a game can be when there's still 80 of them to go after this.

But you're playing a non-playoff team in the Nashville Predators. It's a homestand. You've got four straight games. home to open the season. And then you go on the road and you play the team that made it to the Stanley Cup final in the Vegas Golden Knights, the team that won the president's trophy in the Colorado Avalanche and Nathan McKinnon's punching people out now. And then Utah Mammoth, who made the playoffs and has momentum and added over the off season and is hungry to take a step. So it's a pretty challenging road trip. That doesn't mean they can't have success on the road trip,

But you want to go on that thing feeling good. You want to be at least 500. Hopefully you want to get that second line of Tavaris, Neelander, McKenna, feeling a little bit better about themselves. And yeah, I mean, you're pretty blessed to get four straight games at home to start. To waste that and not at least be 500 is a tough look in what's going to be a very competitive division. Luke, we spent like the first half of Leaveshour basically discussing the second line. So I'll get you to give us some help on the.

the back end of things. This year they had Darren Radish. Chris Tannibov returns. What do you think of how their decor looks so far this season compared to what they were rolling out last year? Yeah, there was maybe one shift, maybe two, where I thought TANV looked off. But for the most part, that's been their best pair.

You know, penalty kill's been fantastic. I know the senator scored with basically two seconds after their power play ended on Saturday in a pretty critical moment. But the P.K. has been 10 for 10, and you've got to give McCabe and Tannave a lot of credit there. They're out and all the tough matchups. You know, I just think Chris Tanna's return does wonders for them. You know, so far, so good on that front. The Rattish Riley pairing, you know, Riley's got a point in every game,

but there's also been at least a moment in every game where you're like, oh, boy, that pairs, in tough. And then, you know, Stetscher and OEL have been fine for a third pair, but there's room to grow. Really, it's the same group, and there was a lot of talk about adding more puck movement, but they didn't really, right? They brought in Andre and gave up on him before he played a game. Radish, I guess, is supposed to be that guy. I don't know if he's a true number one. I think he's a number one power play guy, but I don't know if he's a number one do everything guy. And I, I, I, want to give the guy a bit of a break, some nerves, playing for his hometown team, all that.

Time to get, needs time to get settled. But to me, that's their greatest weakness so far is the blue line. You're watching and listening to Luke Fox, 15 year, Luke Fox, the most red writer.

That includes the years he didn't cover the Leafs. Hey, Luke, nobody's watched this team more than you, or as much as you depending on who you are. but how do you go from out shooting the Ottawa Senators 14-4 to getting outshot 16-5 within one period? What was the swing for you watching that

because a lot of that third period felt like a lot of what the Lee fans saw last season? Yeah, I didn't like their third. And Jim Hiller admitted as much today. He looked back and said, I've liked our defense pretty much all season except that period. he really signaled that out. Two things. I mean, there was two bad stick penalties.

Rossevik trips a guy in the neutral zone. Marchenko got a stick up high on Tim Stutzla. And you can debate how much of a head snap there was. But he did get a stick up high. Two careless stick penalties. So you give Ottawa a couple power plays. They get momentum off that. But there is a familiar theme here.

And that's when the Leafs get. it running around in their own zone, they're not getting clean zone exits. And this goes back to the blue line. I'm a little bit worried about their ability to do that. And also, you know, they came out with pace in a lot of these games. And then particularly against Montreal and Ottawa, I think some of their pace fell off as the game wore on. Now, does that have to do with being one of the oldest teams in the league?

I'm not sure. but they seem to take their foot off the gas a little bit in the third period. A little concerning. Again, you know, it's still week one, but hopefully they recognize that they have to play right to the final whistle because I did not like their third period at all. No, you know, one of the not depressing parts maybe, and maybe that is a good word was just they couldn't find that push.

Like it didn't seem like, you know, they took over the game when they had to chase a little bit. Top line has controlled play by and large. I want to ask you about Jack Rosovic, you know, that was sort of a day. debated spot. This guy may be not a true top line winger. He looks like he's skating really well.

How do you find the fit with him and Matthews and Marchenko? I feel like the chemistry between Matthews and Marchenko has come faster than it has with Matthews and Roscovick. And that's probably just Marchenko being a higher caliber of talent. Roslovick hasn't pressed me with his speed, but I would say of all the guys in the top six, the guy that you're kind of circling and wondering, is this guy going to eventually move down to the bottom six? It's probably Roscovic.

But he's been given every opportunity in the world. They're setting him up for success, you know, top power play, top line. You know, he's Matthew's buddy. You see them walk out together often to start practice. So there's chemistry off the ice too. And you hope it translates. I just find it fascinating. You know, Jim Hiller's been very positive so far.

but already they have a losing record and we'll see what happens tomorrow but the tone hasn't been very critical whether that's of Roslovick whether that's the second line whether that's the D and I'm curious to see how he handles it if this becomes

say a three game losing skater or something like how panicky does he get or does he maintain this level of hey no reason to panic everyone's new here we got all these guys and we're figuring out a system and everyone please have patience how long does that patience last?

Luke, one more for me, and we had a pretty in-depth conversation on John Tavaros and Sam pointed out that he's notoriously known as a good starter, right, to seasons, especially coming off of, we know how he trains, we know how he looks after himself, but it hasn't really come to fruition for those first few games. What have you seen out of him? And is this just something that in your mind is just a one-on?

Is there a trend here starting with a guy that's obviously moving on in age? Yeah, I mean, he's been fighting father time, tooth and nail, and I think he's done a fantastic job of it. He always seems to find his way onto the score sheet. And, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with playing with a guy like McKenna, who he's, you know, he's taking care of on the ice, but he's also spending time looking after him on the ice. and I think he feels some ownership that I have to be a mentor to this guy,

a fellow first overall pick. And, you know, they're figuring it out. I think McKenna's given him some great passes. But who's the first one in to go dig that puck out and find it and get it to John and Willie? I don't know who that guy is. So that might be contributing to his soft start. But actually watching them in practice, watching them in camp,

Tavares still pops out to me is one of the best talents they have. half and one of the most consistent guys. So I'm going to cut him some slack right now. He also had one great rush against Ottawa, where he basically went end-to-end, give and go, couldn't convert on the shot, but I still think there's a player in there. All right. Great stuff. Luke.

Always appreciative of you coming on our show, man. Thanks for doing this. All right. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it. Okay, take care, guys. The talented Luke Fox. Good stuff.

Yeah, a little confidence for Pete. Yeah, I find it interesting that he feels very confident that John's going to be okay. Yeah, I mean, you'll have a stretch where he gets on. He always does. But you just worry about those becoming fewer and farther. He just, he's always found a way to get his points. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I'm sitting here as he's talking and he's like hooking up all the lines. Like they have options that they haven't had in past years when they decide to make a change. I'm curiously how long they go without needing to. Got a couple. minutes here. Brofsky, no one's saying that he hasn't been great. No one's saying that.

But at the same time, his numbers are kind of consistent with what we saw last year, albeit early, with goals against average above three and a save percentage of what, 887, which kind of puts him, I guess, close to where he was last year. Yeah, he's been good, though, to your point, like, is a goal saved above expected or 1.1?

Like he's been about what you would think he'd be in the attempts he's seen this this year and made a couple made a great save on Bathurston going back to the backhand. I think the thing that you would worry about the most your league fan is if you watch him for the first two games and he looked old or looked like he wasn't moving around as well

or whatever. To me he still looks just as athletic but you know there's a couple you want to pretty much. I think there's a little bit of a challenge on handling the puck a little bit for him and the D and just feeling that process out. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, worthwhile having that chat. To me, they need to shoot at the net more. You know, they scored two goals every game so far. The other thing that I think, like, Stolars look really good. Really good. So tell me something. Nashville tomorrow night. Yeah.

Obviously. Vegas, Colorado, Utah. Clearly, Bob. Oh, no. How do you break the next four games down? M.ovsky. Plays on Tuesday night. No question.

I'm with him. think, but Bob expects to play tomorrow. I don't know if right now Bob is better than Stolars. When Stolars is available. Oh, my God. When Stolars is available? Goalie controversy. No, there's not.

I'm just saying. I'll be the first report. Surrogatea Ravski starts tomorrow night against the National Predators. Yeah. Out of the first three games, Stolars has been the better goalie. Give them the net. I'm just saying. But you're not, you're not missing that start.

Oh, it's so insane to suggest putting an awesome goalie in that? Yeah, right now it is, I'd say. Give me another week or two, Omega Change, but yeah. And then Bob's going to play two out of three. You also want to get Bob a dub, though, and you think this Nashville game at home is good a chance as you get. So he can talk me into it. That top line is all diving.

Okay. Once again, we've been in curfite. We've solved nothing on our Leaf Hour edition. Can we take it up a notch in the national hour? We've got to go. More hot for hockey after this.