Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Sharks Jump on Lily Pad

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee begin the show sharing their reactions to the Maple Leafs trading away Timothy Liljegren to San Jose, Toronto's history in drafting prospects, the long-term outlook of the Leafs' second line with Max Pacioretty, John Tavares and William Nylander, and Nylander's ice-time cut down. Then, Sportsnet's Jason Bukala (34:30) joins the guys to share his view of Liljegren's usage since being drafted in 2017, how scouts feel about their players being moved, if the path to a Stanley Cup includes drafting and developing prospects and the potential need to bolster Toronto's centre position.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

live on sports at 590 the fans sports at 360 and sports net plus it's net kiprios justin born sammy mckee derrick brandale and jake the snake schultz with you for the next two hours. We start off on our Leaf edition. Boys, we are Lilligran-less. Oh, you guys are going to be okay? Yeah. Yeah, everyone's going to move on okay? I really, really enjoyed saying the lily pad. They're going to play San Jose this year.

You get to say it. Assuming he's not healthy scratched. By then. I'm just getting myself back into hockey and Leafs mode. The last two nights have been so World Series heavy and I've just been dialed into the World Series and there's nothing else that's mattered

to me other than the World Series. So, got to get back into the Leafs mode here with them playing tonight. We can have a quick moment on the five-run inning where it felt like the bat flip inning, did it not? Like the 40-minute bad defense. I really, really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed it. Watch the Yankees crumble.

It was great. I thought it was a really, if it had been game six or game seven, it could have been an all-time baseball game just just with everything that happened in it back and forth great stuff too freeman too good for it to go six i really wanted it to go six like did you well come on what's better than that sport uh just the just the human interest uh in it i just wanted the yankees to lose so badly that I just, as soon as you can get them out of there, I'm happy. So I was happy to see the Dodgers get it done.

Yeah. And our boy Shohei, the almost J. Shohei almost J. Could he have milked that shoulder injury a little harder? Holy hell, yeah, we get it. Your injuries, your shoulder hurts. Like, every. Putting the T-shirt on?

No, he's just like, every, like, he's swinging. He was doing the tiger. He's on first and he's holding his collar like he needs a sling to hold his arm up. Okay. What a t-shirt on? No, he's just like, he's swinging. He was doing the tiger. He's on first and he's holding his collar like he needs a sling to hold his arm up. What a phony. He was doing the tiger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, oh. You're calling one of the greatest players in the history of the game

a phony. Tiger or Shohei or both? We're calling them dramatic. You don't need that. If you're hurt, don't play. If you're not hurt, just play. Last baseball thing, and I said this to Borny off air, but I'll say it to you. The thing that fascinates me the most about baseball

and just what makes it unique is in a lot of other sports, you can control who is making the decisions at the most important time. In hockey, if it's overtime in the playoffs, you know who you're throwing out there. You have your guys you trust, your guys that you're willing to lose with. Football, it's going to be Patrick Mahomes with the ball in his hand.

Basketball, LeBron James is going to have the ball in his hand. Yankees fans, their least favorite player all year. They all complain about Alex Verdugo all the time. And your World Series, your season, can come down to your least favorite player and just happen to be in the batting order. It's their number nine hitter. There's nothing else like that in sports

where it's just like you can't control who's up there. You can pinch hit, sure, but you don't have any better options off the bench. It's a very unique thing about baseball I love. Anyway, that's it. I've made that... Go ahead. And you can have a window or a stretch

where you totally have lost complete confidence in your star. Yes. Judge, he was... I mean, he was a redemption. He hit the home run, and then he hit a fly ball that I actually think I could have caught.

That one's going to sting. Oh, yeah. The Yankees fans are forgiving, aren't they? They've gone soft. Them cheering for him so hard. Like, the old Yankee fans would have booed them. They went hard. They went soft. Alright, the Toronto Maple Leafs will welcome in the Seattle

Kraken tonight. They make their only visit to Toronto. There will be no Vince Dunn. There will be no Brandon Montour who had a nice hat trick against Montreal the other night. Montour had a kid. Right?

Second child, baby girl. That's good. Yeah, it's great. Get him out of town. Love it. Alright, so you're going to say it or me? Cookie night for the Leafs? They're going to lump up the Seattle Crackers tonight.

They're going to do it. They're going to do it. No. I'm not going there. They're going to lump up the Seattle Crackers tonight. They're going to do it. They're going to do it. No. I'm not going there. You're not going there. No, I'm not going there. They're going to win tonight. Well, yeah, they could win, but I'm not... The last time we said cookie night, they lost 6-2 to the Columbus Blue Jackets. But I think it's fun to set the stage that way. All signs point to

it should be a good night. This Crackers team, I understand, is playing pretty decent hockey lately, but they're missing a couple important pieces. Leafs found it last game. Didn't they find it? I think we're, yeah. It's going to be. There's Wolves back?

Okay. Okay, before we get into specifics against Seattle, let's just put a bow on this whole Lilligren story. In about 30 minutes, we're going to welcome in Jason Bukala, of course, from Pro Hockey and and here at sports net he's a former nhl scout and i think he's the perfect guy to just talk about having someone in your system for as long as timothy lilligren had been in the system albeit not a top, but a first rounder. Yeah, 17th overall.

17th overall. The time and money you spend in to develop this guy, to hopefully get him in a place where the here and now over the development of someone should be now. Like, you've done all that to get him to the point where now he could fit in with the Matthews and the Mariners and the Nylanders, and you hope that this is the time that you're ready to go get that silver trophy.

And he can't get one game in. Because why? Because of a new a new coach well a couple of things first off i i think this is like a sunk cost fallacy thing where you know you've put all that time and money and effort into him so you should keep trying no i don't believe in that it's like he if you don't think the second you don't think he's going to be a difference maker for your team yeah then you should get rid of him while you can get the most value for him yeah that sounds good today but i kind of watched them like three or four years ago i never saw much more than a third pair of guy or you know and that's the best case to be made is that it should have been done yeah

like years ago yeah and so there is is there any concern on your part that this burns them, either this year, let's say with their decor, they're struggling, and all of a sudden they need some help in the third pair and can't find someone better than Timothy Lilligren? I'll start there. Is there any concern for you there? Zero. Okay.

Is there any concern for you that he goes to san jose and becomes a great no a very good player who plays and on the second pair 22 minutes a night power play two leaves her like we should have kept them now if i'm playing off the zero part do i say less than zero or more than zero because i'll go zero again zero how about new he is a serviceable guy that can come in and maybe hold his own for 12 or 14 minutes you played 20 minutes a game for them last year which is a reflection of their thank you decor yeah it doesn't say anything about lillard says everything about the lack of depth i gotta tell you over the years if if sheldon keith had this decor that they had this year i think lilligren's minutes would probably be pretty similar to

what they are right now although he might play over timmons because of what keith thought about timmons and there was he didn't really seem to love him a ton so maybe he would have played more in the bottom pair or whatever but it feels like if he had the options that that brube have this year might be pretty similar my only complaint is that he should have got more than one game like in preseason i think he played one game and then brube was like third pair fourth pair immediately bumped him down i know know, but it's... Like, give him a couple to show the coach. Maybe he didn't like me in this one game.

What about tonight? I think the writing was on the wall the moment he invited Myers and... Hockenpah. Hockenpah, and you just went in a different direction here. And the fact that you had some momentum built with Timmons as well. So he's gone. He's out there. It's over.

They actually made the decision to sign him to a new contract, and people were scratching their heads at $3 million. Why would you sign him to $ million dollars when you knew he wasn't going to play it was because you were protecting an asset you were going to qualify it was either it was either sign him or have him walk out the door you know or you know stay at home yeah but you protected an asset you turn that asset asset yesterday into a third and a six those are picks that you're going to need come march those are very valuable picks albeit not maybe game changers to get stars but they doesn't hurt they will help and that third is

a good third you know like it's going to be they have two picks san jose and you're getting the better of their thirds so you're getting the better of their thirds. So you're getting top half of the draft presumably there. So they come into play. And the most important thing is now your cap is alleviated. Yeah. You know, so now they can fit guys under salary cap wise when Hawk and Paw do or come off IR.

The one thing, they need to clear contracts still. Two contracts need to be bending we'll go down so benning will go down and probably myers they'll need another one they'll need it they'll need to make one more probably to to fit in that that roster situation benning makes 1.25 i think and you can bury 1.15 so you're talking about burying is that 10 grand i'm bad at math so maybe it's and every day that goes back uh takes less pressure off your salary cap to your point if you need to go add more depth you can go find another lilligran you think you can yeah i mean i i think that come deadline you have a column today which we can get to a little bit,

but about how you think a second line centerman is going to be part of the deadline deal. Do you think, I guess it depends on how Hockenpah goes, but like it's likely they add another depth right shot D at some point. I think it is a concern for sure. I think it kind of stings a little bit

that he is a right-handed shot and outside of Tanev, Sure, I think it kind of stings a little bit that he is a right-handed shot. And outside of Tanev, Timmons, would be nice to have a third one. Is he not ready? In your rotation. Yeah, he's ready. Hockenpah's. But I don't know if he can play.

Right? I don't know if I can count on him from one week to the next. It sounds like you can't. I'm going to be shocked if he's a consistent player for the Leafs. Brubais said at practice today that Hockenpah is getting close. Whatever that means. No timeline, but he's getting close. So today, I did write for the Toronto Star. I talked about Tavares'

hat trick and certainly give him full credit. Are we turning the Lily page? Yeah, are we good with the Lily? Liligren? There's just something I wanted to point out here. I saw it from a guy that we've had on our show a few times here, Joshua Cloak. He sent out a tweet that said, the Leafs made 16 picks through the crucial 2017 and 2018 drafts.

16 draft picks. After the Timothy Lilligren trade, just one player from those drafts, sixth-round pick Pontus Holmberg remains in the organization. They're bad picks, Brant. That is really tough for an organization to continue to find and then you go back and you look at over those like 2017 2018 and after that you're signing guys that are older that are aging to try to find some value in guys that don't cost as much when with the guys making the top money

that's when the cheap talent from your drafts are supposed to come up and sort of how to find some value in guys that don't cost as much with the guys making the top money. That's when the cheap talent from your drafts are supposed to come up and sort of... Like, that's sneaky been a huge part of some of the Leafs' problems. I don't know how sneaky it is. I think it's just... I think it's been abundantly clear that they always have been chasing because of their inability to develop their own.

It's crazy. I went back and I looked at the 2020 draft. Not one player has played one NHL game from that draft. It's all held together with the super glue of Nylander, Marner, and Matthews. Correct. And where you feel about Morgan. If you look at the sort of benchmark for this guy had an NHL career, some people say it's 200 games.

It's like Dermott, Lilligren, and Sandin all got to those numbers, but Sandin's making 4.6 on the third pair in Washington right now. Dermott was a PTO guy this year. It hasn't been that great. You gotta develop. To win championships or to truly be in the mix, you have to develop within your own.

And it's been a problem with the Leafs. Lilligren's the only guy for the 2017 draft that played a game. And then in 2018, the most played is, like I said it was sundine i'm sorry sundine sandine and dersey who've uh played 216 let's listen to broody go ahead and then just and then it puts so much pressure on you not to screw up a anasm cadre trade anyway let's listen to craig barubi clip three uh his thoughts on timothy lilligren

well i think there's you know looking back at the training camp um you know there's i think guys just were outplaying him a little bit but uh he's got ability he can you know skate move a puck um you know i wish him all the best i mean it just didn't work out here that's That's the best way I can put it. That's Coach B for bye, Felicia. See you later. He's not my defenseman anymore. Yeah. That would have been an unbelievable line. I'm not going to comment on him.

He's not my defenseman. If I was Kyrie, I'd say I don't want to talk about him. He's not my defenseman anymore. Yeah. He said guys outplayed him. Yeah, they did. They did. And also, I want to take umbrage with one thing that people say,

that he didn't get opportunity here or whatever. It's like, he had so many chances to take the ball and run. And never did. Never ran. And it's like, oh, there's so much pressure on him in the moments, you know, because he, you know, was healthy scratch in the playoffs. Like, yeah, pressure is a huge part of pro sports. Managing pressure is like all sports is.

And here it's the most important thing. So it didn't work. I don't think that one's going to burn them. Did he mention anything worth listening to about Benning? Or did you just throw that in? I think the plan for Benning may be

the funniest clip of the year in terms of berube dryness let's play it clip two well we'll get him in here i think he gets in here later today and then we'll chat with him and see where he's at talk a little bit and then we'll figure it out how was your flight I'll figure it out. How was your flight? We'll chat a little bit. Check in, I guess, on his way to the other side of the arena that we're at that we share with the Marlies.

Any plans for Halloween? See where he's at, I guess. I don't know. We'll chat with him. Benny will have to have one hell of a conversation to have much of a chance to be a consistent Maple Leaf, I would say. All right, so, and we don't need the scouting report on Benning, I don't think. We could buy it.

Okay, sure. Yeah, let's buy the one, please. Oh, God. Just stay home defense, been steady, you know, blocked a lot of shots, things like that. So, yeah, that's what he is wouldn't somebody follow up with the can you use that right now

is that important to you right now will it be a maple leaf do you need them yes I don't think they cared enough to follow up the plan was the follow up what's the plan chat we have a chat you know what the chat do like

do you know where rico coliseum is on coca-cola sorry do you have ways um okay so uh you want to follow up a little bit on the article i wrote for the toronto star today because uh you know coming off of uh tavaris hat trick and patcheretti and and knelander having a good night, we'll see them again tonight. But the feeling is, compared to short-term to long-term, was basically the gist of my article. You can find it on my ex or former Twitter account, that real kipper.

But let's go to you first. Short-term, long-term, on Tavares, the line that we'll see tonight versus Seattle, and where it goes from here. Well, you know, I would say, so I read your article, thought it was good, as always, thought-provoking. You know, Tavares has had a pretty decent start to the season, I would say, about in line with expectations.

He's definitely seen a bit of a diminished role. Yeah, I don't think he is going to be able to sustain it. I just, the only takeaway that I, the only thing I disagreed with in your article is that, like, I just don't know who would be available like Ryan O'Reilly. Ryan O'Reilly was perfect. He was a defensive-minded, solid second-line veteran who's won. Like, he was perfect as a pickup. And I just don't.

I don't think. Brock Nelson. I was literally partway through saying, I don't think another guy like that exists. He plays wing, though, doesn't he? Center, too, as well. He can. But someone a little bit more, I don't know. Brock Nelson would intrigue me uh it's just a big

strong straight line guy like can you find a lot of can you find or do you go down a little further down and try to find the next nick paul or something that just i don't know if ryan o'reilly would be out there, but to your point, it might be tough. It might be really tough to find a prototypical second. But can you find a hybrid? Yeah, Brock Nelson would do the trick for me. I just, you know, these are big asks for the type of names we're talking about right now.

This is the year that there's no question, first rounders, second rounders, third rounders, take whatever you want. I have to, do I not have to be all in already? Hey, listen, we're not even in November and we're starting to talk about the Leafs being all in. Is there any chance that Tavares has a good year and you like him and he just you

know he's more defensive minded than he used to be wins a lot of draws i based on history based on trends i'd say highly unlikely the best point you made in your article about that was looking around the atlantic division and other one two punches where it's park's Markov and Bennett and it's who is it Kucherov and no no no Anthony Sorelli yeah Sorelli in point point you know and like the other type of you know one-two that win cups the really elite yeah and that's not even like Boston seems like out of the equation right now so that's that's it if if the worst case scenario is you have to go austin tavaris and domey one two three to start your stanley cup playoffs are you feeling good about it i'm not saying you've lost it's not terrible like anytime you have austin as your

number one center you're as good as pretty much any team in the league there but it's it falls off that's a pretty steep decline to two three it's crazy that they haven't given neil under four games four games are you feeling good no let's just see no i would say that's the thing we say the most on this show that they don't do it's just like let's try this for a couple games let's see if domi works with matthews Marner. There's two training camps in a row. I know, I know. Where we just did not... What's going to happen, though?

He's going to give up a couple goals? Something scared them off completely on Willie. And I know I mentioned this a few years ago, and I haven't brought it up, but like, why not Marner? I will... I'm all in. Why not Marner behind Matthew will, I'm all in. Why not Marner behind Matthews? I love it. Is Austin too scared not to play with Marner?

No, he's not. He absolutely tore the league up without him last year. Okay, then. Separate them, then. My favorite stretch of Austin Matthews hockey was last year without Marner. When he played with the Bertuzzi and Dolmy. And he played center.

Have you read, Andrew Brewer wrote a really good article on why Mitch Marner would be a good second line center option for them um obviously defensively responsible guy older now been around the league and probably as strong as he's going to be in the league for a defensive play you know you like a distributor in that spot why was that never it's too late now I assume they know? It's too late now? I assume they think he's small. No, it's not too late. No, it's not. No. I assume they think he's too small. That's my assumption is defensively against Barkov and Bennett

or whoever that he can't defend. Boys, we've been speaking things into existence so far this year, so maybe next practice you'll see him. Please give us an opportunity to prove that theory then. Yeah. That somebody thinks he's too small, which to me is, I don't buy it. But maybe if Willie played center, he'd get more ice time, which is. Nice transition there.

Hot debate at practice today. So was he asked about this? Or did he volunteer this information about his ice time? Would you like to hear the entire clip? Yes, I would. Including an exchange with Luke Fox, I think, and with Mark Masters, I think.

So clip one on his ice time, Nylander. Do you miss killing penalty mates at all? Yeah, PKing is fun. I mean, it's good to get in the game that way. I mean, there's a lot of penalties and stuff like that, so keep you going. But, yeah, of course I miss PKing. Have you found an adjustment to play a little less this season? Like your average ice time is down a couple minutes?

Yeah, I mean, that is a little bit what I've been trying to talk to Chief about, to get that ice time back to where it was before. I think it helps my game a lot um to do what i want to be able to do out there so you know it's something to figure out because it gives you like a rhythm yeah i don't like that okay tell me why what's the first thing you're thinking of when you say i don't like that it's not you know it's not your job to ask the coach to play more like the coach has given you the ice time you've earned oh that's happened in 50 years a disgruntled player goes up to the coach does i want to play i want to play

more that's fine but i don't like that we're talking about it here in the media like this seems like something that like okay they can have that chat or whatever and he said uh that's what i've been trying did you catch that can you play one more time the whole thing well no just the part where he says like that's what i've been trying to talk to the coach about be the second part of the thing after this i don't listen one more time he's got to do some on-air editing here okay all right forget it i i got the sense that maybe he's talked to him and it's kind of fallen on deaf ears on deaf ears do you think when he says i've been trying to but but i also he says it gets me going or whatever it's like well we're not here to facilitate you you're here to help us go as a team if you maybe you're picking up a theme that i have an

issue with here but like this is not about getting listen i i i get what you're saying it's about how well it's not what your country can do for you it's what you can do for our country yes thank you extremely well said i don't know i We're not worried about your minutes or points. J.B. Kennedy. And Berube, clip four on Willie's ice time. I don't focus on ice time so much. I mean, I get Willie out there quite a bit, a lot. I mean, a lot of key situations, obviously. But, you know, at the same time, you you know i've said this all along we want to we want to be a good team we want everybody needs to be involved so i try to get willie out there as

much as i can i i think it's been settled you're gonna take what i give you yeah that's so true you know i this is what willie's Willie's talking about. He's been trying. He's been trying. I'm ready to go in, coach. Just give me a chance. We have a second one, clip five on his asking for more ice time. I have no problem with it.

And I do try to get him more. We talk about it. He killed penalties last year. He's not killed penalties this year, so a little bit of ice time there, that's off. What I do is I try to get him out there, if deserved, as much as I can. If deserved. I have no problem with you asking for a raise.

Right. Doesn't mean you're going to get it. Yeah. And I also think know sorry about your minutes but on the penalty kill i would like to put out who i believe are our four to six best penalty killers if i don't think you're in that i would like him to play more than 17 12 in a hockey game for sure for sure i'm being totally honest like i would like him to play more he's really good i don't disagree with the idea i actually think willie's right here that willie

is his best when he plays more that there could be more opportunities for him to play more and even the penalty kill is not terrible for him so you're just saying just i don't want to hear you correct like cry like a baby to the media it's game 10 new coach we're all sorting things out here fine to go ahead and ask your coach and say i I actually, I think I'm pretty good at this thing that you don't think I'm pretty good at. Just give me a chance to show you. Like, I don't mind that conversation. So, like I said, it's not new news

that a star player wants more ice time. It's happened forever. Not exactly breaking news. But what is also no new news is that, like, this could go one of two ways. It could kind of sort itself out, or it could be a bit of a problem here and a distraction. And one of those kind of uncomfortable situations

for a lot of players in the dressing room when a guy's not happy happens every year on every team somewhere down the road sometimes it's a lot more noticeable to us in the media or the fans sometimes it's not but it does happen where do you see this going i just think that i and i've been wrong before but i think i know know Willie enough to know that he's not going to make a big deal out of it. And that he'll hopefully earn his ice time back. He doesn't,

I don't know him to be a sulker, but I could see Berube hating the questions from the media. Like, let's say Berube sees him as an 18 and a half minute guy with no PK. This question is going to come up a lot. Cause Willie's best year was a 20 minute guy. And the media is going to be like, I don't, I've known Greg long time. this question is going to come up a lot because Willie's best year was a 20 minute guy. And the media is going to be like,

I don't, I, I've known Craig long time. Yep. I don't think it's going to bother him. He's just going to, he's going to answer. You want me to answer it 50 times.

I'm going to give you the same answer 50 ways, but they'll all equal the same. That's the bottom line. So, and that's the way he's going to be short and sweet. And it's like, you know, I think this, I'm doing that for him. This is what he, and it'll, it won't, he won't get tiresome of it, but it'll also put him in a position where, you know, he's going to have to work through it no different than I'm sure he did

in St. Louis with Cairo. And I want it a certain way. And if you don't give it to me a certain way, then you're locked in at 17, 18 minutes. You want to get to 20? This is what I want. But Willie isn't Cairo. Like, Willie is one of the premier players in the league that's playing two minutes less a game. Right now, he's looking a lot more like kairu than you think my friend i i don't i don't agree like

i i think he's not kairu but he's looking like a kairu it's a chicken and the egg here though he's playing two minutes less a game he's getting punished for stuff it's like i want more ice time play better haven't we been through this already with this guy right like he had his best year playing a ton. He's one of the three best players in the team. Play him more. It's been around for 100 years. I know.

I can play better if you give me more ice time. Okay. I'll play better, and I will give you more ice time. All right. I just, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. No, I'm.

It's the wrong guy to pick a fight with, if you ask me. I do think, yeah. Berube. No. Neiman. I'm with you. Well, Berube should. Listen. We just spoke earlier this week about accountability.

Yeah, but he's got 10 points in 10 games. You want to get to a guy more than any other way? This is so classic. You take away the thing that means most to him. This is classic, the guy that you're picking on. It is. This is not accountability. Sheldon Keefe had this accountability

where it's like, Willie benched. It's like the accountability time is when you bench Matthews or you benchmark and that's the end of accountability. Willie got a lot out of this guy. Sorry, Willie. Sheldon got a lot out of that guy. If we were to have gone back in September

and said, if a guy like Craig Berube butts heads with anybody on the roster... Number one, Willie. By a country mile, Willie. Stylistically, because of the way he plays. Yeah. Is there any other reason why? Well, attitude, yeah.

And Willie is... Willie, by the way, that we're talking about right now, they've played 10 games. he gets six goals yeah he's leading the team in scoring you probably you know up a little bit right and it's that's all massive but there are times when willie looks all world yeah most most nights to me most nights we've gone past the inconsistent willie like he has his defensive gaps he like it's just

the found wallet thing it's understanding that that's there there's some nights there's some nights there's still that willie the drive-bys earlier but you you have to make peace with that yes you have to make sheldon had from willie because if you don't you're going to miss out on a great player and you're going to have him taped to your bench to prove a point that's never going to change him. Boys, they've all been here for like eight years. You've won one round. Where is that the we have to live with this and you just got to accept it?

Because they've not played him. They've won one round. They're doing it not playing him. Last year was the first year he played decent ice time. He's been an 18-minute guy. And look where it got him i'm just saying that like this is accountability you gotta you gotta find somebody i i don't think willie's been bad i agree that it's just a guy that he's like i don't like some nights he's all

world and there's some nights he's willie yes of course but but there's okay we should go because we gotta get the books but he there's most nights he's all world. And oh, he missed. Oh, he flew by. Yeah, no duh. It's Willie. 100 points us. We have 98 points us here.

But how many other players in the league fly by? Lots of forwards and wingers who are really highly skilled that fly by. And it's just like, I don't want this guy to have getting his minutes taken down because the coach doesn't think he's good enough defensively. I don't care about his defense. It is the perfect guy that you would expect for Ruby to come in and be like, hmm, that's not. Anyways.

Okay, we'll take a quick break. We'll get Jason Bucala's thoughts on the Leafs, including sending the lily pad out west. That and more when we return to Real Kipper and Bourne. Hey, it's Matt Marchese. And I'm Mike Futa. We're discussing the top stories of the day across the NHL and the hockey world weekdays at noon. It's the Fan Hockey Show

on Sportsnet 590 The Fan and wherever you get your podcasts. Am I still holding for tv i'm clear nick capreos justin bourne sammy mckee so we're just uh before the break we're talking about uh willie nylander's ice time so five on five he'd be those minutes are normal it's just he's not killing penalties anymore is that is that where the ice time's been lost i don't know exactly without doing a deep dive here that's what i need you for well he's doing playing 1402 at even strength uh per game and how does that compare to matthews and marner uh marner is playing 1505 and matthews 1446 so he is within 40 seconds of matthews and 50 seconds of marner not far behind

at even strength so presumably then the difference is special teams it's a big gap he's three and a half minutes behind marner yeah now would that These are taking a ton of penalties. Would that be lost? That would be lost on the specialty teams. The shorthanded time on ice per game, he is at 30 seconds while Matthews is killing 204 and Marner is killing 236. So there's most of your time. Okay, just to stay on this before we get to Jason Bukala, is Matthews and marner killing penalties we haven't talked about that much not at all okay let's get to jason because he's ready and

then maybe we can follow up on that um on on where we are on that there he is there you are my friend how are you hey fellas i'm doing great happy halloween boys really appreciate it uh earlier in the show i had mentioned because of your scouting background you'd be the perfect guy to start with the uh the question on how would a scouting staff feel if not an overall management feel when you've put time and money and development into a player albeit a first rounder like timothy lilligren uh was how many years ago five no seven seven 2017 2017 and you're hoping that he gets to a place where he can be a key contributor on a on a team that's driving towards uh trying to win a stanley cup a contender and it just doesn't happen.

Yes, you got assets back. This wasn't, you know, basically, you know, a giveaway here. But how does that make you feel as a, first of all, a scouting staff? Forget about presidents and general managers for a second. I would argue today, given the state of the Leafs, that it really doesn't matter that much, to be honest with you. I feel like they're turning over a new leaf here and they're going in a different direction

with the type of player that they want to acquire and how they want to manage their draft capital going forward, Pipper. So I don't know that on balance, when you look at the entire organization, I guess if you go up to the president's chair and you start talking about Shani and stuff like that, it absolutely when you put that type of development time into And, you know, I don't know if there was other opportunities to trade him over the course of the last number of years of his development cycle, but the previous regime really valued this type of player, and I think they wanted to try and get the most out of him. But the fit wasn't there.

And I have to be honest with you you and i did write about it today i never really i thought he was miscast from the beginning to be perfectly honest i've scouted this guy forever since 2015 and when he was skating on the big ice overseas guys as an underage and then a draft eligible loved his boots loved how he could get from a to b wasn't sure about his brain sometimes he he seemed to find ways ways to take pucks into traffic or he was under duress too often, given the size of the ice sheet and the fact that he skated the way he did.

So, yeah, I don't know. I think it's, I understand the angle. There's a lot of investment here, boy, and a lot of opportunities to move on from players long before seven years. And now you see a depressed value of return, I would suggest. And does that affect some people behind the scenes, like on the scouting staff who would have pushed for him?

Like, is this how scouts end up out of jobs somewhere? If they say, hey, this is a guy that you liked and it didn't work out, does that hurt? I think the reflection has already taken place long before this trade was made so um i believe that kyle dubas and west clark valued a certain type of player a certain type of style player 2017 mark hunter was on his way out uh that's the same time that west clark left my staff in florida to come to toronto And I can tell you from being in a meeting with Wes that, that the way that their trajectory is on the way that they think about

players is a certain type. And yeah, that can, that can, I would not hold anybody accountable regionally for those decisions. I'll put it to you that way, Barney. It came from from within the room at the hierarchy level. And that can be dangerous. I've been there too. I've had bias. I'm not a perfect scorer. I've had bias on players myself, right?

But yeah, I hope not, I guess would be my short answer because I think it was a different way of thinking. We're talking to Jason Buchla, pro hockey group in Sportsnet's top analyst when it comes to NHL scouting, former scout himself.

So, so books, he ends up signing a $3 million contract. That was to protect an asset. That's that clearly had value based on the third and the sixth round pick and bending coming back, I guess. But what happens when you're a scout,

you've got a certain player that looks a certain way but then doesn't mix with a coach right and were you surprised that bruby came in gave him all but one game and kind of said no uh timmons is ahead of you akampai who's not even played yet is ahead of you, and so is Myers here. Is that part of the equation once upon a time at the draft table where you're like, why am I drafting this guy when I know a coach won't play him, doesn't like that guy? Yeah. I'd like to sit here and tell you that that doesn't happen,

but I'd be lying through my teeth. The reality, though, on today's NHl is that the shelf life of the coach is so short that you can't really introduce that into the discussion i will say this slow kipper when i was in nashville when i started my career barry trotz was there forever and and david poyle had a way and jeff kelty and he's still there jeff kelty they had a structure there in place i was going to allow the coach to, I guess it was more of a group effort. And the coach had more, I'm not going to say stay at the draft table, but there was a type that everybody agreed that we would draft

or we wanted to play a certain style. And it would fit the coach's wish list, I guess, is the best way to put it. As far as Lilligren goes, for me, I was staring at two bodies in the summer when Berube got hired. I was staring at Robertson and I was staring at Lilligren. And I'm thinking to myself, what's not going to work here? Where's something not going to fit? And Robertson so far has earned quite a bit of a runway here with the coach.

I'm not surprised on the lilligran thing and let's not forget mike van ryan and berube worked together in st louis before mike's running the d and and they want to have intimate conversations about mike knows what craig likes in a player so these conversations definitely would have taken place so you would have seen players leave your organization in florida go other places and and you know been worried about them becoming great players anytime someone leaves your organization in florida go other places and and you know been worried about them becoming great players anytime someone leaves your organization any concern if you're the toronto maple he said lillard goes out and makes you look silly over his career here no okay no

next question yeah no i yeah exactly if this was a cra Craig Rube press conference, it would be move on. But, Borty, I just never – I wasn't buying the stock from 2015 on the elevated trust value in terms of the way that I think he can process the game at the NHL level on high leverage situations. He spiked on occasion. But this isn't something that – personally for me – I mean, I hope he does well. I'm not going to sit here and suggest for a second that I would lose any sleep over it. Gotcha.

The signing of Jake McCabe, the free agent signings of OEL and Tanev. And now we're looking at a blue line that's, with the exception of Morgan Riley now, is the only original draft pick. Am I right in saying that? Correct. Can you win a Stanley Cup this way? Or do you, at some point, do you have to draft one or two guys

in a scenario where they can carry you in their prime to a Stanley Cup? Let me put it to you this way, guys. The Leafs, you need to draft and develop. You absolutely need to draft and develop your own players, Kipper, and they have to supplant the veterans along the way, and they have to save you some dough along the way, too, when you guys start making payments up to higher end players um the the model toronto's in a very precarious situation they they have to trade for assets to win now they haven't had a ton of draft capital or have

they if you look down through their drafting over the last several years of the last 37 picks that they've made they have three nhl players and that's a problem like that's uh that that is a problem the florida panthers just won the stanley cup and from 2016 to 2020 they've got eight full-time regular players either on their roster or traded out for assets elsewhere. That's incredible. Well, yeah, and Dallas is on the cusp of the same, aren't they? So the Florida Panthers were able to trade out Bowen Tippett and another first-round draft pick to the Philadelphia Flyers for Cole Drew. It didn't work that year, but they still didn't miss a beat.

Why? Because they had others coming, and they had other assets that were filling the coverage so branch tree living in a staff or in a tough spot they they want a certain player type they haven't uh they don't really have any homegrown players that fit the bill if you will like their player type and uh and they're limited on draft capital so the the rate of return on a guy like lilligran and you won't be the only one there'll be others the rate of return on these guys is depressed. A third and a sixth, but at least they get something.

Yeah, we know at the deadline, there's certainly more value on defensemen. Before we let you go, I wanted to ask you, you wrote an article for Sportsnet.ca on how, am I good to turn the Lilligren page? Are you good on that? On P.L. Dubois, who is a really a hot button guy very polarizing big talented whatever but frustrates people he has now gone from the kings to the capitals and

you wrote an article about how that's fitting how he's doing in washington give us that answer uh it's much the same despite despite what spencer carver is uh is promoting out there which is to make sure that the the is very comfortable, I would say. You know, getting out in front of the media saying he's our best player. The optics suggest one thing. The results are very similar to every stop so far along the way. So, big body. We all wish he gave a little bit more at any given time.

But the underlying numbers, Borny, are very similar to every stop along the way so far. But his line mates have spiked, like the shooting percentage from Tom Wilson and Connor McMichael certainly found his groove. But Connor McMichael is the exact same version right now as he was last year. So I hope for the player and the organization

that this goes well, you know, for the long haul. But he's in the bottom that this goes well uh you know for the long haul but he's uh he's in the bottom half and they're plus minus he's below 50 and face off 11 hits can you imagine if you're a six foot four 225 pounds but you know i'd like to gnaw on people's ankles if if i was a little guy but if i'm a big guy like that i'm running over everybody to make sure i got space all the time so i know that there's been a lot of accolades thrown his way. I'm not going to sit here right now and say that I'm buying that stock long-term either. It's just been okay.

We'll see how it goes. Washington's off to a good start. But the coach is definitely making sure that he's uber comfortable right now. Got to ask you quickly, if we're on the topic of center ice men, I wrote an article today for the Toronto Star about Tavares doing a great job Monday night of holding the fort for the Toronto Maple Leafs on a power play that can't get going or a slow out of the gate Austin Matthews. But ultimately, are the Leafs destined to a few years ago where they need to pull a trigger and shore up

the center ice position once again i.e a Ryan O'Reilly type of trade and if so books who do you envision out there we we had mentioned Brock Nelson of the Islanders but you know first of all your your thoughts on on that uh that that centerman position for the Leafs? Brock Nelson will be great. A lot of people don't appreciate Brock Nelson. He's got some synergy there with Tavares already. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole yet to start envisioning who that centerman could be because I'm trying to see when Connor Dewar comes back and where the money is

and how all this stuff is going to fit. But that is the exact type of player that I would absolutely go after because he's proven in high leverage situations, guys like that, that he can produce. He's been a good playoff performer, and he'd be a responsible target. I'd like to circle back on that as a project, to be honest with you, because I haven't put a lot of thought into it but listen power play center ice a lot of different things i read today neil

ander wants more ice time um i don't like that when that comes i don't like when people talk about that but whatever he's he's got to deal with ruby behind closed doors not me so good luck kid but um you know my guy all right right you know So, yeah, more depth there, more speed. Boy, did you guys watch New Jersey last night run rampant over Vancouver? Fast team. Fast team. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

That's a track meet. Yeah, that is. Before we let you go, I wanted to ask, you've got a new business venture. You're involved with Drive Hockey Analytics. Is that right? Yes, Drive Hockey Analytics. I just partnered with them. Thanks for bringing us up.

If anybody's interested in NHL Edge on NHL.com, Drive Analytics is a company that essentially mirrors the same sort of scenario. You can run combine-type testing and analysis and player development in homegrown ranks so minor hockey ranks major junior ranks etc etc and it's uh it feeds the eye test with some real hardcore uh results and numbers which is i never thought i'd get to my career i'd be saying some stuff and uh and here we are books great stuffs, great stuff as always, man. Thanks for joining us. Always.

No problem, boys. We'll see you later. Have a good night tonight. Thanks, Bucs. Appreciate it. That is Jason Bucala, Pro Hockey Group and Sportsnet. We didn't even mention it's Halloween today.

Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Yeah, thanks. You know what? I only care the following day when you bring me candy. The kid's candy? The kid's candy. I don't know if I can skim the first night. It's candy. I knew you were going to say that. The kid's candy? The kid's candy.

I don't know if I can skim the first night. It's tough. They got pretty good eyes on it, but then they start sleeping on it. Kimber, don't you worry. I bought 40 pieces. I bought 40 pieces. I'll get two people at my door, so I'll bring in 38 pieces for you. What are you, living in the woods?

No, I live on a busy street. Okay, we're still warming up here on the Real Kimber and Boren show. When we return, we get former NHL forward Rob Brown. Life in Edmonton without Connor McDavid. What's that going to be like? And I'll ask you guys in the next, at the top of the next hour. Can Connor still win league scoring title? Yeah.

Can he win the MVP? Missing eight or ten games? Good question. Good conversation. We're back. Don't go away.