Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Tavares' Toronto Legacy

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee with their holiday-shopping plans before looking ahead at the Leafs' matchup against the Rangers tonight. They discuss John Tavares, who will be honoured for his 1000th point back in Toronto and they reflect on his Leafs' legacy. Is he a lock for the Hall of Fame? Then, where and how to work Samsonov in. Later, Rangers analyst Steve Valiquette (27:38) tees up tonight's game, Panarin starting to tail off, the non-physical style of play at the top and parallels in Shesterkin and Samsonov's psychology. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

let's welcome everybody into the real kipper and born show nick kiprios justin borans sammy mckee derek brandeo jen rolnick for the next two hours you're stuck with us oh turn my mic on off and running yeah hangout time okay Okay, do you always turn and... I don't touch my buttons. Sometimes you get caught. No, you always get caught. Yeah. What do you mean? With your off and on button for your mic. Why do you shut it on and off?

You know, people don't need to listen to me coughing and sniffing and all the rest. Seasonal. The only time it's really bad is when it's on during the break yes that's when i need to make sure it's off yeah well he's on right now and we're glad for it wherever you're watching and listening on sports net 590 sports net 360 and sports net plus from four to six let me ask you guys this last week before christmas here yeah feeling a little quieter around the building

saw some pizza having out today i saw tumbleweeds upstairs. There's nobody around. You were downtown today. Pretty quiet. Starting to feel like we're winding down here. I know. I had a neighbor get together. Christmas get together. Oh yeah. And I came

this close to telling you guys. Today is just a no-go for you? No-go. No-go. Were you hanging with Gibby and the boys or what? I was with Gibby and a few of the boys. And, yeah, I was like on that cusp line.

Right? I think I'd welcome just a straight up, I don't want to do it today. And I'm like, I don't want to bail on my boys. There's only one guy here that has missed a show on TV, and it's the guy that probably shouldn't. Remarkably durable show here, a bunch of Phil Kessels. You know, every single show until Thursday, you guys will have done every single pre-Christmas show.

You wouldn't have missed one. You missed an hour once, and that was it. I wouldn't miss it for the world. It's crazy. Good attendance. Shopping, like, are you guys shoppers this time of year, or do you just let the wife do it be honest all right all right i contribute ideas intermittently but yeah no i it's not my domain no way well it's more of it like if you're doing it together

something's gonna fall through the cracks you need a mastermind at the head of the organization to really take stock of the whole thing absolutely Absolutely. So I'll get divided handed people. Okay, you handle those people. Yeah. So she knows it's off her list, but. Yeah. Have you ever bought a present? I bought more this year than I ever have in my life.

Really? Yeah. Okay. You got all your kids coming home from university. Well, my wife went down last week to see her mom and dad in Florida, and I'm by myself, and I'm like, I'm no good by myself. No.

So, I went shopping. Atta boy. You don't like to be alone? No, I was just too quiet, too just cooped up. Cooped up. Yeah, I get it. Quick story, every year, Clark Gillies, you know, for years, you know, God rest his soul now.

But it was a yearly tradition that Clark would get one gift for all the family. You get the same thing. And one year, he's talking it up. Oh, you know, like, this is going to be, you guys are going to love this one. This is a good one. Christmas morning, my wife is like, I think we're going to go on like a trip. Like, I think he's got us all trips to whatever. Snuggies.

The whole group got Snuggies. Like 20? Like 15 Snuggies or whatever. Except for my brother-in-law who got an autographed Bobby Orr jersey because he once mentioned that he liked it. So shout out to Angelo in Boston. Wow. That was a heartbreaker of a Christmas morning, let me tell you.

I mean, not a terrible gift. But when you're expecting a trip to Peru, what's the topic? I'm thinking another 10 years, you're on that program. Yeah. By 15 of them. Yeah, one thing. Oh, I love it. All right.

Well, the Toronto Maple Leafs tonight, the New York Rangers, they got three more games to go for the Buffalo on Thursday and then back home saturday night against help me sammy columbus no in columbus in columbus on saturday night uh this one by far i think their their biggest test where they come in feel really good rangers not so much almost like a a role reversal from probably the the first start of what six seven weeks of the season they've won both of their games since the Leafs pasted them there at Madison Square Garden and they beat Boston in one of the games they beat someone bad in the other game they won two ducks five one okay and they beat the they beat the Bruins 2-1 in the game where Pasternak tried to

kill Lindgren um but yeah I think you know keifa will get to keith's clips and stuff but i think probably expect a pretty hard game from the from the rangers tonight i will say the the leafs come into it with a bit better looking lineup austin matthews is healthy healthy tj brody's back you know lilligren is back as well so it's first time you're decor you got riley brody mccabe lilligren you feel like you have two legit pairs lagasin timmons is the third pair lines are pretty solid and healthy all the way through you're missing reeves but i think the team is better with mcmahon there anyway so yeah yeah we're gonna welcome in in about uh 25 minutes steve aliquette who does an amazing job when we have him on his breakdowns whether it's a goaltender or the uh the new york rangers in general. Just a fantastic analyst,

and we're lucky to have him on board here in the next little while here. John Tavares, guys, will be honored for his 1,000th point that he reached in the island last week. And candlesticks make a good gift. So, I did text Gordo about the tea set, and it was true.

It was a tea set. Okay, I told you guys that a while ago. Like Ming Dynasty tea set? I'm not sure. Let me just quickly see what Gordo said, but I'm just quickly pulling it up. He said he gave a silver tea set to Daryl and Wendy Sittler for the 10-point night, then to Ian and Turnbull

for his five-goal game by a defenseman. I got a belief. Unusual gift, but an expensive one. As you say, it must be like a really high-end tea set. Tiffany's. What do you melt it down and sell it? What do you do with a tea set? I don't know.

Back then. People making tea? Someone had mentioned to me maybe about five grand. For a tea set? In the 70s. So that's like a $30,000 tea set? I don't know. My inflation math might be a bit aggressive there.

I mean, maybe you know Sittler. Give him a text, see if he's still got the tea set. So see if he's got a little t-set floating around still i would imagine tavaras will get the customary silver stick i think is that a thousand games though i don't know what else yeah i think it is a thousand games that's been the tradition but this is a thousand points oh yeah you're right yeah you're right they'll get him something nice they'll get him a nice picture or maybe they'll get him a he He's already played his 1,000th game, has he not? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, he played. It was last year. Remember, we had him on last year after we played it. Yeah, it was memorable. I remember that for sure. Let's go to Sheldon Keefe. Obviously, it was a tremendous honor. It was a tremendous honor.

Let's go to Sheldon Keefe for our first Kippers Clipper on this milestone of 1,000 points from his captain. It's a great moment for our guys to acknowledge our captain and just such an incredible and really rare accomplishment. Yeah, so I think it's great, especially for a guy like John who doesn't seek any sort of individual accolades or attention or anything like that. He does a lot of his best work behind the scenes, and a lot of people don't see it, and at times take it for granted and such.

And then when you have a milestone like this and get to 1,000 points, it's a chance to really appreciate him for the career that he's had. And like I've mentioned before, I think he's got a lot of great hockey ahead here still. And that's credit to the consistency that he's had through his career. So when you have big milestones and big nights like this, it gives you a pretty clear chance to talk legacy, right? That's what we do. Yes.

And I think it's a fascinating one with me for Tavares because you look at what he has been since he's come here, and they signed him and paid him to be John Tavares, and he came here and was John T and paid him to be john tavaris and he came here and was john tavaris but i think a lot of people would probably say it's been disappointing since he's come here like i don't know which side of it maybe the results have been yeah that's what i mean like they haven't i think he was kind of supposed to be the last piece of the puzzle to put them into the stanley cup final or make them that kind of that kind of contender

and they've only been to the second round once. So I don't know. It's a complicated one for me. I think what complicates is that personally, from John Tavares, what you thought you were getting in the player, he's been that. Yeah, exactly. He's third in the NHL in face-off percentage. He has been a point-per-game leaf.

He had a 47-goal season. He's been a very good contributor. It hasn't put the team over the hump and i think that's where the disappointment comes through but it's tough to look at his contributions since he's come here and say he hasn't delivered on what he was expected to be yeah he hasn't delivered on what he was expected to be well i mean if we go back to that that famous pajama day right he was catapulted to the second highest paid player in the game pajama boy i did that was not my drop And that doesn't constitute delivering a point a game, right? It's the perception has to be that you at the time

were one of the best players in the world. And I don't think he has ever reached that point. But that's not on him. That's probably more on uh Kyle Dubas at the time bringing him in and I think everybody had the vision of Marner and Matthews being what Patrick Kane and John Jonathan Taves were in Chicago to build around. And then Tavares just got, wow, where did Tavares come from, right? And there was some talk about the Leafs being interested in John Tavares as a free agent.

But at the time, as we look back on it, and he's going into his second, or he's going into his last year next year, was it the right decision? Well, and those to me are not the same conversation it's not you know was it the right decision to me is a separate thing from evaluating tavara's performance as a leaf but but but a point of the game doesn't ever get you close to being the second highest paid player at any time of your career there's a couple factors there and first off that first year he did score 47 times which may have been one career year one career year there so that was great i think towards this that year also made mitch marner 11 million dollars because that helped you the um you know i think the tail of this contract

people didn't expect to be great it was like we're paying to have him be here in this front and i think you expected the cap to be shooting up and lots of people to be passing him by now and that didn't happen because the the salary cap and the other thing is he was a ufa and you have to pay a premium to get a ufa you're not spending any other assets right you know trade asset whatever so some of it is that's just the cost of getting the high-end ufa but i i understand what you're saying like i'm not saying i think it was i think it was i think it was set up for him to never be able to achieve that's unless of course you win the cup they get to a stanley cup final that's the only way we're going to still measure him moving forward i gotta tell you you

look at the whole time machine of careers the montreal injury in that series i mean it might it might be a totally different story um joseph siegel recently wrote something about his legacy here yeah if they have team success it's wildly different for sure and i do think there's a large portion of people that watch the leafs and talk with the Leafs and fans or whatever that do take them for granted a little bit in terms of just the consistency and the ability to never make news and never be like just like be the true professional in the hardest market to do that when you're staring down the barrel of media every day talking for five minutes I just you know I think it's a complicated legacy and i'm still like because i love the guy and the fact that he chose to come to toronto like a lot of leaf fans will love him forever for that like

no one really did that you know like he was the first one to actually choose to come here what happens from here you know over the next 17 18 months or whatever yeah of this contract it's gonna shape how a lot of people look at his time here if and it's based on nothing he does individually other than team success probably yeah i mean if you were to have a crazy good or crazy bad playoff year you know like scoring overtime we're just sending the first round in 20 years or something like that second round something like that just continue to be a point a game average, which is great. But there's a lot of those guys out there.

And thousands used to be an automatic, even for the Hall of Fame. Used to be. You're getting in with a thousand games, a thousand points. That's not the case anymore. Yeah, so he's 97th in NHL scoring all time in the history of the league. It's incredible. Yeah, 1,004 points.

Let's say he has, there's 50 games left for the Leafs. If he has another 40 points, that would take him all the way up into like the 70s all-time scoring. Like it would be a big jump for him. Yeah, but... I know i know but he's just but if he finishes his career he's not 40th all-time in the league he's a hall of famer he's also 33 like he's getting another contract i think i looked at this contract that it was you know you you talk about the first three years of it right fellas where you're like

they need to really take advantage of it because the last two years of this contract is going to look really bad. Right. And he still just looks like John Tavares to me. If I was to ask... Go ahead. No, no. Go ahead, Kevin.

If I was to ask you guys where the split is on importance for Hall of Fame between regular season and playoffs, where would you have that split? 50-50? 55-45? 60-40? You know, I think as legacies change, the regular season will become more important

because there's just too many teams. We've talked about that, and I think it's going to be less important to have had playoff success, whether it's the Sedins or Luongo or Alfredson, like the most recent class. All those guys went to the final. But if you've got 15 guys, a handful of guys that are the same, Ty goes to the runner.

Ty goes to the playoff guy. For sure. And that's where he's really under achieved so i've as we're talking about this well yeah his the islanders teams he had no one could have drawn lebron wasn't dragging those teams to the cup final you know but like in those days if if he's in a race for pavelski for for hall of fame status look at Pavelski's playoff numbers compared to Tavares'. He's played a third more games in the playoffs, and he's probably got almost a third more points.

Like, Tavares must be at, I don't know, 50 games, 55 games. Like, I played 36 playoff games. He's played 25 more playoff games than me, and he should be over 100 more. But the more I think about this, it's not going to be close. He's going to be a Hall of Famer. For sure. Because he, first overall pick in the NHL.

Doesn't matter. Does matter, because it's an honor. It's a legacy thing, your first overall pick. There aren't that many. He won an Olympic gold medal, and it is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. Olympic gold is going to be on his resume. The all-star appearances, I think he was a heart finalist two years.

How many all-star appearances? I don't know. The all-star games don't really happen, right? Because there's Olympics. You're giving me kind of like. Olympic gold? First overall pick. Olympic gold, he was a third line checking

guy. I mean, he was on the team. He was on the team. In a country where it's tough to make the team. He's going to finish with 1,200, 1,300 points, whatever it is. 1,200 probably and change. I think the playoffs now are going to be way

more looked upon now as being a difference maker on your status for Hall of Fame. And he needs a great run in the playoffs. You played in, you said, 30-some games or whatever in the playoffs? Yeah. And I'm not saying this to be disrespectful. There's 21 teams, I think, when you guys... So you had more opportunity.

The 16 teams made the playoffs. You made the playoffs three-quarters of the time. And now you make the playoffs half the time so i think it's just less common for guys to be able to get in the playoffs a lot like i don't think a guy like jeff skinner who has he ever been in the playoffs you know like i don't think a guy i don't think you can never make the playoffs and i think having some playoff success is relevant he has scored two game seven overtime winners to help his team pass the team game six for the Leafs game six for the Leafs game seven for the Islanders not that anyone remembers that

yeah um you know you look at his playoff games played with the Leafs and it's that's what kills like legacy. It's like 7, 5, half a 1, 3, 4. If he had played in 10 or 11 every single one of those years, it's a completely different conference. For sure it is. If he played 80 playoff games,

he'd say yeah, he's in. But 55 is stunningly low for a guy that's played this long. It's just not... You you got to be difference makers. You got to be a guy that can show that you stood out in those series. I mean, he's 44. I don't know. For me, it's just not enough right now.

And he needs desperately this season to see a conference final or a Stanley Cup final to solidify what we're talking about. Yeah, he can make it a no-doubter. Just one deep run. I don't even think they need the cup. No, if they go to the conference final and he's a point per game on the way there, it's probably enough. Yeah, and I think after his contract is done here,

which is he has this year and next year left right is that correct this year next year yep so then the question is after that like he's going to get another one someone else is going to pay him i don't know what maybe it's the least he maybe he takes the 750 well i don't know that not if he's i mean he's made a lot of money 70 points in his last year or something like giving him if he was making, I don't know, five and a half right now, he'd be the king. So true. And that's why the salary cap stinks.

Because we have to measure it against what he makes as opposed to what he means to the team. And, you know, I think the way that everybody jumped off the bench and the way people all reacted, it seems like they genuinely love the guy on the team. Like, he seems like he's a worthy captain it just i don't know a lot of times it seems that the team takes on his personality right and it's like what's that quiet you don't love that reserved that's not a good thing that's what i mean i'm just i'm weighing both sides of this

here boys it's a fascinating conversation to me because it's one of the most unclear legacies for a captain of a team to me than any like that you could have i always found it weird that when they signed them they waited a year for to name a captain over a season did they not well we know what happened they're gonna give it to matthews you think and then he blew it? Yeah, then he, you know. Is that really like you just spent $11 million on this guy and you were going to make Matthews the captain over him? I think Matthews is. Yeah, I think he was just going to be like the stud guy who gets to be the seed.

He's the best player who gets the seed. I just, I found that whole, I would love one day to be old and gray and talk to Brendan Shanahan and say, okay, what really happened? What really happened? What really happened? Why? Why? Probably like, you know, let's see if Austin matures into this captaincy thing.

He'd love to give it. We said this on the show, you and I, and I've made the case. There's no doubt that MLSE, the Toronto Maple Leafs, everyone wants to sell 34 with a C on the chest at some point. I think 44 with a C on the chest probably would be yeah i just which one's selling i don't know man you're right i just spent 11 mil i just spent 77 million dollars on this guy and you're telling me that he's not a sure bet to be my captain when he was the captain of the islanders for 10 years i guess and you're telling me you're waiting for 34? He got it in the way that Matthews did.

It's like the young prodigy who's first overall who's probably not ready for it. That's how you end up with it all those years. But it's something I haven't really thought of since then. But Kipper does have a point. They should have just given it to him right away. Right away. But that's the whole thing is the guy's never been in the dressing room. How do you make him the captain who no one even knows who he is?

That's a good point, too. And now here's your captain. You guys are making good points before mark massier mark massier come on comes in there with just yeah dragging his knuckles because they're weighed down by rings it's like yeah he's the captain now in hindsight as austin proved at this point of his career he's never going to be a captain type of player? No, he'll be the captain. I think he'll be the captain. I think it happens when Tavares signs for

three times four million and they make him an assistant captain. One million. Oh, is that what it's going to be? Yeah. And is it based solely on best, most talented player? Or gets the captain? Like they do in minor hockey? No. With his two cops when he wins two cons mice will be obvious for him to be the captain when his contract is up because you would like you would like the guy

who is your captain to be the person that everyone's looking at to follow yeah to be the face of the franchise the guy who plays 23 minutes a night to be the guy who's out there not the guy to get ragdolled or smile at other people too, right? I don't like it either, Cameron. If I had to vote, it would be Riley would be the captain. I think if we could all run this back to when they made the decision, Morgan Riley's probably the guy. Love Morgan.

I like Morgan too. What a conversation, boys. All right, well, regardless of any letter he's wearing on his jersey, he's back in tonight. TJ Brody's back in as well. And strength in numbers. I think they maybe proved something to themselves the other night against Pittsburgh

that they can look like a team from top to bottom and less of a team that relies on three guys to put the puck in the net, four guys. Yeah, and everyone got involved. That was, you know, they're going to need that against a Ranger team that is deeper and has a really good decor. Do you want to get a little prep from Sheldon Keefe?

All right, let's do Keefe. Tell us about the Rangers and what the Leafs will need. Yeah, probably the greatest challenge would be that we faced them last week and we had a good night in their building and they're a great team that has had a great season and has been a good team in the league for a number of years for good reason. And you'd expect them to bounce back here tonight

as they have bounced back and played very well since that game we've played them so we'll expect them to be at their best in terms of the challenges you know they've got great goaltending uh special teams are you combine the power play and penalty kill or you know among if not the best in the league and uh you know they've got some very dangerous players that dominate play when they're out there so we we've got lots to manage. But, you know, our hope would be that we can get another good start here tonight. A good start the other day, but a good start in New York and want to try to take a hold of the game early. Are we just at the point now where the Leafs could be playing a peewee team

and you find really good things to say about them? Like, they're really short, but they're fast. Yeah. They've got a lot of passion center of gravity in fairness the rangers are at first place in the eastern conference well like he went on a big long diatribe about how great columbus is offensively the last time so he'll do it with anyone but i think the rangers what do you make i don't think anyone's given up more goals than them in the month of December, guys. The Rangers? Yeah. Really? Oh, no. They've given up some large numbers to Ottawa, San Jose. Leafs, obviously.

Leafs. One in their last two. One each. No, they look a lot better. We're going to welcome in Steve Alliquette, and we'll ask him which Ranger team he's anticipating seeing tonight against the Leafs. But they hiccuped for a good stretch here in the last couple of weeks. But maybe a couple of wins against Anaheim and Boston have strengthened them up.

But I don't know what team we're going to see tonight. Yeah, and to your point, in this month, they've lost to the Capitals, the Senators, some other... Buffalo. Yeah, it's it's it's not been perfect for them and giving us a goal total so i think that is you know keith's got a good point that that's one of the scary things it is a good team that he knows they need to rate the ship here quickly before we get to valley martin jones gets to start tonight he does surprise uh surprises i i didn't know what to expect, so I can't be surprised either way.

I think he cannot take a chance. He's got to go with the guy that he feels safer with, and that is Martin Jones. And he's got two chances, Buffalo and Columbus, on Saturday night to go back to see what kind of work Samsonov's done all week. Yeah, it's hard. You guys know I made the case why kind of work Samsonov's done all week. Yeah, it's hard. You know, you guys know I made the case why I

would start Samsonov tonight. I get it. You feel better with Jones right now. Play Jones. I can't be mad. He's just going to look. It's just going to look better at least. Yeah. Four may go in, but it's not going to drive you up the wall. Fair enough. All right. We take a quick break here. Yes, sir.

And we'll welcome in steve alicat analyst for the new york rangers on msg as he helps us tee up tonight's contest new york rangers versus the toronto maple leafs back after these words get smarter when you listen to hockey talk the hockey pdo cast with dimitri filipovich subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back into the Real Kipper and Boring Show. Steve Allocat ready to rock and roll. Our guy.

We've got him on the Zoom call. Look at the Christmas lights in Manhattan. There's a guy who's got all his shopping done. True. Oh, good. And I went with, this is the first of three Christmas outfits for the TV. So, you know, you're trying to get into the spirit on the walk over as you pass Macy's and all the nice storefronts. Nice, nice. So listen, where's the New York Rangers

spirit coming into tonight's game? We know last week, not so good against a Toronto Maple Leaf team that had no problem filling the net. Am I right, Valley, when I say the Rangers were one of the worst teams for giving up goals in the month of December, and no one, including me, never really saw that coming? But where is this team right now as they face the Toronto Maple Leafs, by the way, as one of the hottest teams going right now? Yeah, so that's going to capture their attention. I think this is one of those games where,

isn't it just as big for Toronto as it is for New York? Because both of them want to prove that they're cup contenders New York is a cup contender if you look at face-offs specialty teams if you look at the way they play in their own zone but not off the rushed against they're having difficulty still just shutting that down you saw it last week when they played the Leafs there was four rush goals against in that game if they can figure out a way to have some risk when it's necessary to go forward with it and just shut it down and not chase outside the dots absorb the rush rather than just be stationary and stagnant the Austin Matthews goal the first goal of the game against the Leafs last week was terrible and it was just

a reflection of what had been looming for them in the games before that. They do have so much talent on that back end with Fox and Lindgren, Miller and Trouba. That's a really good decor. I do want to ask about Ryan Lindgren, who has seemed to get crushed. It wasn't just the McCabe hit. He got hit by pasta. It was like four times in a three-game span.

He's typically a pretty physical guy on the other side of those, isn't he? Well, he was sending a text message. Is that what was happening? I have a 15-minute walk from Grand Central to MSG. Do you know how many people blow up on the sidewalk that are texting? Fair enough. I've got 20 more pounds on me than i did when i was playing in the league so and i look the guy has the pain tolerance of a cadaver he's gonna get up every time and get back

out there but he uh look i was talking it's funny because i get text messages from aaron voros from brian boyle like all the guys are texting me as soon as it happens, right? Because the league's changed. And I don't know if you guys have ever thought about it from a goalie's position, but how many times do you think I've seen D come back for the puck? Yeah, a zillion. Exactly. And I know what it looks like, and I know how it should look when you're good.

I can see them shoulder check. I can see them angle. I'm always them shoulder check. I can see them angle. I'm always talking to them. I wonder if Shosturkin's not loud enough because you shouldn't get plastered like that, fellas, if you're a goalie in there and you're yelling the right way. We have clear, designed, on-the-spot language that we use back there so we protect each other. Same goes for me when I'm out there playing the puck. It's spinning on the boards. Do you know how hard that is?

I'd have guys say, like, hey, man, you got to get that on the glass. I'm like, dude, that thing was spinning a mile an hour. Like, it was crazy. But, no, like, I hear you. Those type of hits in the game, it's either you don't have spatial awareness, you're putting yourself in a bad position, or maybe you want to call or you want the refs to protect you. So I'm still

old school that way yeah when it comes to star players uh we know the rangers have you know quite a few uh and panarin seems to be a lot happier than he was in the in the previous years uh is is he tailed off a little bit here in the last little while, or is he on his way to a career year? No, I think he'll be all right. The narrative for the first month anyway was that he was getting inside, and that means getting his teammates inside or being inside himself. He's still doing it.

It's just he's actually been snakebitten a little bit for the last couple of weeks. He wasn't on that same pace. Nobody's going to shoot at that same percentage. I'm not worried about him. You know, we talked a little bit offline,ipper you and i uh the last game and the hard part i have right now is that um i'm measuring this team against every single stanley cup winner over the last five years and i'm trying to find the dog in the top guys and i loved your conversation

uh two weeks ago. You guys started talking about the alpha dog. I agree with that 100% because I've been in summer camps with guys like Nathan McKinnon. And I'm talking about like eight years ago where I'd say, yeah, that guy's going to win a cup someday. The room with Sidney Crosby. Yeah, he's going to win a couple. And this is before the 16 and 17 season.

You can see when guys are led by their best player and i think that matters if you're an offensive guy but you play the right way and it sends a message to everybody in the group and um mark stone would be another one that i'm thinking of from last season those types of guys up front uh panarin's not that guy zabana jazz not that guy. Zibanejad's not that guy. Kreider's not that guy. And I'm hoping they either find it in them if it's possible. That's the only thing I wonder about. Valley, is Trouba that guy? But again, we've seen players like this on teams from different eras. But if their talent just caps them only so far, it doesn't help them, right?

Be that alpha dog. Well, yeah, and it reflects what style you play in the playoffs. If you remember last year against New Jersey, guys, Panarin got inside his teammates inside the ice once, all series, twice himself as a shooter. Like, it was just a perimeter series. And look, you lose when you're up two games to nothing against new jersey last year you lost the year before when you're up to nothing against tampa bay in the eastern conference final and you know i want somebody to just go out there and take it at this point because uh i'm getting older so if if you're looking for that it can come from two places. Can you learn that?

Like, can it be developed over the frustration of not getting through? Or can it come from the next wave of guys? Can Lafreniere have some of that? Or, you know, whether it's Hedl or Kakko or any of those young guys, can they become that? Yeah, well, I do know they do have it in Trouba. He has it. I mean, you'll see him, and he's got it in him.

I have no question about him. He's playing awesome, too. I mean, he was the best defender on the ice against the Bruins in their latest win. The only thing to me is, and Panarin's trying, guys. Like, the guy shaved his head this summer to just, like, be a different person. He wanted to come out fresh start. And he's been as good as you could possibly be for a, for a guy with that type of skill. Fair enough.

Yeah. When you think about the goal scoring department, you think about a guy like Crider, is he still own in the front of the net? Like he did last season. Is that, is it still the most dangerous area for him? Yeah, it's legit. No, I actually keep a lot of my scoring chances myself

from the company that we have, but it's all gridded ice so we can see eight-foot radius around the net, who's there most often, what types of chances, deflections, et cetera. He's always in front of the net. You'll see it tonight. He's there all night. He's kind of what JT does the same thing. Tavares does the same thing that Kreider does.

I would say that Kreider, that particular spot, he does it a little bit better. But overall, you know what, guys? If I was explaining offense to young hockey players, I would explain it like this. What you want to accomplish on the ice is not allowing the

goalie to have half of a second of clear sight on the puck. So how do you do that? You can do it with one-timers. Mika Zibanejad has nine goals this year. Every one are off a one-timer. He never allows a goalie to capture half of a second of clear view on the puck. Now, that would be when the goalie's in motion. If the goalie's not in motion and he's locked in on you, then it's deception or shooting through a screen the way Matthews does and allows somebody to come in. So again, you're obstructing the goalie's view by using one of his own teammates to screen him. Deflections, broken plays, you're doing whatever you can to not allow a goalie to have half of a second of clear view

on the puck and that's what we're trying to do as goalies too we're doing the same thing except the opposite we're just always trying to set our feet trying to cancel screens trying to manage broken plays so when i watch the rangers play i feel like they don't have a conflict at all with those two things they understand how to score that's why they execute at a high level i'm not worried about them scoring i'm really not i my biggest concern with the team and i'm talking about because the bar is so high i'm talking about a stanley cup championship they have to defend better off the rush and i'd love to see an alpha dog but outside of those two things i mean look nobody's perfect You guys know what it's like. Go around the league. Everybody has their warts.

But the Rangers, I'd love to see an alpha dog with somebody up front. Love to see them defend better off the rush. Shusterkin as well. We haven't talked about the goaltending. He's playing tonight, guys. This is a massive start for him. It's a huge start for him. He's coming off a solid game against Boston in Boston,

but it's been shaky for him. Who's going in net for you guys? I don't even know yet. I'm still waiting. They're sending Martin Jones at you. Okay, okay. Yeah, he's a hot hand. One time a guy that made $6 million a year, 27 wins last year,

albeit most of them were in the first half, if I'm not mistaken, Valley, and then he tailed off a lot, but still a better choice than probably what's out there for other organizations in the third spot. Yeah, 100%. I was actually, I was looking at a lot of, I fell down a Samsonov hole today. Oh my goodness. Oh good. Give us what you got.

Oh my. So, you know what, you know what data I really like right now is data that would reflect the psychology or the mental strength of the athlete, okay? So put yourself on the bench. You guys just came off the ice, hard shift. You left it out there, and you get to the bench. You're up by one, and your goalie gives up a bad goal. Bad feeling, right?

Yeah. So nobody is allowed more bad goals when your team is up this year than samsonov and he has the worst safe percentage over the last three years so what his biggest challenge is to me it's psychology it's can you mentally game states right guys it's a different thing for a goalie i I have to tell you. If I'm up 4-2 in the third period, it's different than being score tied at 2-2 or being down 4-2. Like, there's three different things. And it makes you feel different.

I would look into, if I was him, what's going on with me and where am I mentally when our team is up? Is it I can't play with those expectations? Why do I take a nosedive when I'm supposed to seal it and to that point Shusterkin I was looking at the same thing what's going on with him this year he hasn't had his best stuff yet but it's Vezna trophy year he's the best goalie in the league he has a 923 save percentage with score tied 923 on his scoring chances last year it drops to 905 this year it's back to 9 14 so not bad but then i look a little further and i'm looking at what types of goals and then you look

at the state of the game too because you're looking at third periods um the one thing i saw was just stirkin that was alarming was when the score goes against him and he's down by one, it's a steep drop-off from that point. So he has a hard time when the game gets away from him. If it's an even score, he'll give you the big save. He'll stop a breakaway at score 3-3 in the third, but it's when the game gets away from him. And I think that's also his expectations because, you know, since he came in the league, he started 9-1 in the league.

He's got Vezna Trophy. He wants to be the best player on the ice every night. Yeah, it's like an engagement thing at that point. So, you know. Can I stay on Samson for a second? Please do, yes. All right, Val, you opened it up, man. I find this stuff absolutely fascinating.

And I want to ask you that we're getting through Christmas right now. Here's a guy that struggled at training camp. He's had ample time to turn things around. He's going to go into the new year with a ton of question marks, including that stat you just dropped on our show. How long do the Leafs wait to have Samsonov come back to where they're comfortable going into the playoffs. What are the odds that he can find what he had last year

if he's still dealing with the things that you just spoke of? You ever see Tom Hanks' movie, The Money Pit? Oh, yeah. Two weeks. Hey, I'm building a house right now. I know, I know. We all are. We're trying to win something here.

Two weeks. Two weeks. Two weeks. The plumbing just went. The electrician will be back. Two weeks. Here's where I would start, and this is the foundation. Samsonov, why is he fifth worst in the NHL this season in safe percentage on screens just watch

the goals what's he doing wrong is he getting low too soon is he not looking over the strong side shoulder there is some technical play there that the coaches can help him with slot area safe percentage on the clear-sighted shots now think about this you're defending right you've got your guy because you don't want the pass to get across you're passing off the shot to the goaltender need to save there and he's got the worst safe percentage in the nhl this year and last when it's a little bit of time and space for the clear shot when the guy gets to the slot so to me again it's like we got to talk about i think there's a place for the there's three pillars to goalt again, it's like we got to talk about, I think there's a place for the, there's three pillars to goaltending, fellas.

It's technical, it's physical, and it's mental. And we talked about the psychology of it. There's definitely some technique in there. He does some goofy stuff out there at awkward times, you know, and does it incorrect. And you wonder, is that the mental getting in into the technical? And is it interrupting what he should be doing? And that's not his game plan. so everybody's got something going on um i was looking at jones just in case

it was him tonight i thought it would be and uh the reason why barton jones wasn't back in the league this year it was his high glove side uh he gave up 27 over the high glove do you remember the wheeler goal that we had last week? Yes. So I'll explain this quickly if we have time. Please do. So goalies in the stance, right? When a goalie poke checks on a breakaway, do you know why goalies do that? Because they don't have the confidence to play you straight up.

Okay. There's no confidence there. When I see a guy poke check, I'm like, oh, this guy's a joke. He doesn't believe in himself to stop a breakaway. All right. So one thing that really matters to like, oh, this guy's a joke. He can't, he doesn't believe in himself to stop a breakaway. All right. So one thing that really matters to me too, is what is your default save? Every goalie has a default save. Default save sometimes kicked in, kicks in when you're nervous, kicks in when you're getting blown up in a game. Sometimes it's when you don't believe you can make a save straight up the same way I

just said on the breakaway. So that Wheeler goal that goes over his glove, I've seen Jones a long time. His default save, his guessing save, is right knee down, and then this happens, and he gets broken, and it goes right here, right? And his save percentage last year, high glove, 69.3% save percentage. Fifth worst in the league.

So I think that's a part of it, though. Sure, Sterkin's having a hard time up top, too. He's got a lot up top. But as you go through this league, there's enough time spending scouting report hours. Like, I talked to an NHL coach last week. He said, we have six on our staff. We're spending five hours each on a scouting report before our next opponent that's what was that's where our time goes i'm like oh my god like that's so i'm trying

as a company to make their time a little easier find these things get to the video sooner but uh it's all there fellas i mean you just have to it's i never look at analytics this way guys i don't look at it like it's the answer it's just a pathway to watch the video so that people with the eye, the expertise, guys like us. You know, that's what I wanted to ask you about. I mean, so you are the CEO of ClearSight Analytics, and I've noticed you've used the phrasing ClearSight a number of times, you know, when discussing goaltending. What is it that you set out to do and find and see that public data is not able to give to people yeah so the hard part with all public data doesn't account for screens so right we have to pay our taggers a good sum of money every night to do every game and every shot

but what they're ultimately doing is was the goalie screened or not it's a big piece because if the goalie's screened and it's from the slot area it goes in 37 percent of the time if the goalie is not screened on a clear-sighted shot from the slot area you wouldn't believe how infrequent it goes in nine percent nine that's why those ones that i'm talking about with samsonov those are ones he has to have. Ken Johnson OT. That's where I guys break down. It's like, you know, you break down because then what do you do defending? You're trying to close on that guy that's about to shoot because you don't trust your goalie, and then he throws it through your triangle. But the clear sight, guys, it came from the idea,

if you research the quiet eye theory,an vickers uh university of alberta this is going back 30 years where there was a mobile eye tracker that she created and she established a benchmark where nhl goalies when they would have half of a second of clear view to lock on a puck without movement they'd stop the puck 97 of the time and if you're a basketball player and you're looking to the back of the rim, the basketball player with the longest gaze through that shot is the most successful. The golfer that looks at the back of the ball the longest through their swing is the straightest. And it really was fascinating.

And I thought, from my perspective, after 236 games on the bench in the NHL, where I'm always looking at all these shots a different way and having to talk to my goalie partner afterwards, it was a good way to be able to say, I want a definition for every shot that hits the net. I want a clear definition and a name. And that's what I did. I have 42 different shot types.

So any shot that hits the net tonight, there's a description for it. There's a name for it. It's bucketed accurately so that you can have a historical average and safe percentage this summer you should try looking at the ball let's see if that helps valley it's all head position guys it's all head position any good goalie in the nhl when the puck comes across their body you'll see a straight line from their head over their knee. Watch a good skater when they cross over. You're not going to see their head come up. You see them drive through the rotation.

It's everywhere in sports. My son's a pitcher. His pitching coach talks about it all the time. How he's got to throw and come downhill with his head angle. Where's our breakdown of our show over the course of an hour? Is it Sammy when he reads game time? What are the percentages? What are the percentages?

What are the percentages? How much do they drop over the course of an hour on our show? Hey, you guys know I love watching you guys when I'm on. Yeah. You and Doug McClain. Hey, I'm like the fifth beetle on your show.

We should have Eric Rendell give me a couple of drops when I need them. Love it. Love it. 100%. Valley, great stuff as always, man. Enjoy the game tonight. And always fun having you on. My pleasure, fellas.

Enjoy the game. Thanks, Valley. Appreciate it. Steve Valliquette does an amazing job with MSG and finds ways to make Hendrik Lundqvist look good. There's more information in a Valaket interview. Like you would need to go through that frame by frame to break it all down.

Did you write down the Samsonov one that he gave? Which one? Was it when they're tied? Yes. What was it again? Over the last three years, he's when they're down a goal, he is the fifth worst save percentage. Oof. Yeah.

That's all you can say. When they're up a goal. Oof. When they're up a goal. When they're up a goal, he's the fifth worst save percentage. Yes. Because you're letting him back in. And here I am, not a huge analytics guy,

and I'm just like, I'm soaking that all in. That's not analytics. No. That's just analytics. 100% useful stuff useful that's but i don't know that's letting in goals at a bad time that's not analytics that's like that's his bare bones yeah but he said it it's uh it says everything you need to know with what maybe is going on in his head yeah how he's kind of talking himself out of just staying in the zone

yeah what i say that's the trick, is to take those numbers and go, what does it mean? Well, this could be a mentally fragile goaltender. We're talking about if Tavares is a Hall of Famer, there is no doubt Valley is a Kipper and Bourne Hall of Famer. Yeah, he is. For sure. Okay, once again, our thanks to Steve Valliquette,

analyst for the New York Rangers. In the next hour, we're going to welcome in Keith Jones, president of hockey operations for the Philadelphia Flyers. Most surprising team? Yes. By a lot? Yeah. I got Winnipeg up there, boys, for me.

Yeah, Winnipeg, Philly. Montreal's 14-13. One game over. Oh. Five to Tampa Bay, according to Sammy. Plenty more still to go on the real Kipper and Bourne show don't go away we'll be right back