Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: The Great Woll of Toronto

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee take a look at the Leafs’ 4-1 win over the Capitals, and ask the question: have the Leafs changed your mind on what they are through six games? They dive into another standout performance for Joseph Woll, chat about yet another successful review for the video staff, and get into the hot offensive start for William Nylander. Afterwards, Sportsnet’s Luke Fox (33:24) stops by to discuss the current road trip, Woll’s play, and how the new guys on the team have been performing so far. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

it is the real kipper and born show leaf edition hour we have not been on the air two weeks this gotta be the start of week three maybe and we're a mess we're an absolute mess uh literal 30 seconds ago sammy spilt uh maybe a 14 16 ounce cup of triple xl all over the studio there was one sip all over the studio from like the highest point it can fall from in the studio it is a pool of coffee it smells like tim's i've smelled work this is not bad just just prior to sammy spilling his coffee, we're about a minute before going on air, and I'm screaming to the world,

does anybody have, like, one of these so I can hear the show? Quarter-inch adapter. Quarter-inch adapter. I'm asking anyone at Sportsnet who's listening, bring in the barrelful. How many can you find? We need the most amount you can possibly get bring them here put them with that big coffee spill we appreciate everybody listening on sports at 590 but if you happen to be watching on sports net 360 or sports net plus from four to six

go to your basement right now buy your tv cable box and just find a couple for me. Put them in an envelope. And just send them over. Oh, man. You should tweet the picture of the coffee on the floor at some point. It's before a 40-minute segment, so it's going to really set in there, which I enjoy. Someone is going to take a spill. I guarantee you.

The problem is, is it going to be sticky? I feel like I should clean it up, but we can't. You're on TV, pal. Can it going to be sticky? Like, I feel like I should clean it up, but we can't. You're on TV, pal. Can't do it. And as always, wherever you get your fine podcast, send in a rating and review, and always text us at 590-590. All right.

Toronto Maple Leafs down the Washington Capitals. Seems like a pretty good score for one. Yeah. Prior to leaving our show yesterday, Seems like a pretty good score for one. Prior to leaving our show yesterday, we mentioned about an extensive conversation on looking forward to maybe Thursday, the Dallas Stars. What do you do with their goaltender? I think we both left JB the show thinking, well, let's just see how the game against washington goes and it won't just

be enough i think to say you got the two points but we wanted to see how they get the two points and and after your conclusion it's what you know it's crazy is is it not the exact score that sam referenced he was like let's say they win 4-1 and he makes 29 saves or something like that like that might be literally the thing you said yeah i did say that you were like i think we you'd go ahead and start i'd like to go back to the tape but i don't believe you it sounds a little bit too bang on no i said i was just i didn't call it but people were like oh you called it no i didn't call it i just drew up a scenario that could potentially happen yeah and if they win 4-1 and he's just okay, what do you do on Thursday?

And I think he was a lot better than just okay, fellas. Yeah. Well, as far as I'm concerned, the only thing I really got out of last night is Joseph Wall continues to impress. Outside of that, I didn't get anything out of that game. And at times, times i gotta be honest with you it was tough watch tough watch tough watch yeah bad hockey yeah yeah i mean both ways

that was not an overly compelling game but going into it you're right like what changed your mind in that game wool being very good made me feel a little bit more like, oh, they might have something here. Well, it certainly lends to the biggest story for the Leafs right now. Yeah. And we'll dive into it a little bit more. But outside of that, again, if we're talking about a Toronto Maple Leaf team that got off to a slow start last night,

didn't really convince you that they've turned a major corner by any stretch did it no and and the way that they won was very much it's like uh who scored and it's everyone who made eight million plus or seven and a half plus right it's riley devars neil and her matthews good they have the elite players we knew that you know they washington's not great we knew that they went for one okay it's something i don't love doing but i will give kipper credit for who is the start of that game in the crowd it was no one there it was a ghost town for the first period of that game and no one was there alan may was in traffic yeah and the last uh and and a good portion of that game reflected the lack of energy 100 you know washington just doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on right now like there was no real

push i understand that they outshot toronto pretty heavily in the first period but once the leafs got a goal or two they just kind of went away yeah i think I think two things. Number one, they're a little snake-bitten. Number two, they went up against a hot goaltender. And just to kind of swing this back to the Leafs side, I mean, we all wake up and we see six games with a 4-2 record. But could that easily be two and four? Or at least three and three, yeah. Or three and three.

It doesn't really feel like a four and two start to the season for the Leafs. And again, not a great training camp by any stretch by anybody. But then you start off by squeaking out a win against Montreal where you chased the score then the following night yeah you do have a convincing win against Minnesota Minnesota on that Saturday but you chased the start of the game giving up the first goal you chased Chicago you chased Florida chased tampa bay and on the scoreboard you didn't chase it you got the first goal last night which is which was nice but a good portion of that start of the game where you got out shot out shot what 17-6 almost halfway through the game 18-6

they felt like they were chasing Washington. Let me ask you something here, and those are good points. I agree that the Leafs so far have done little to change our mind about what they are, which is probably a good team. That isn't a little flawed. What do you think about Ovechkin? I said on the show yesterday, speaking of going to the tape, he's going to have way more than five shots tonight or seven attempts.

I forget what the exact things. Last night he had 17 shot attempts and 14 shots. Yeah. Did that seem a bit much? Like, you know, maybe there are other options on the team that they could have used? Or was it just like, all right, Ovi's doing his thing? Listen, how do you argue with a gazillion goals and argue that he's the greatest goal scorer in history? Pure shooter.

He's a pure shooter. That to me was a response to his early season though, right? Like that whole game was a response to people being like, he's washed, two games with no shots. Yeah. He was like, oh yeah? Oh no, he overdid it. Kaboom, kaboom, kaboom, kaboom, kaboom. He overdid it. It just seems like there's not much else going on

outside of his arms ready to fall off from shooting the puck. Yeah. No, that's a... And that's a team that I watch and I'm like, okay, if we all are in agreement that San Jose is the worst team this year how far off are they i do i do right now yeah i don't know i mean i i just look at their roster like san jose he doesn't even have guys where you're like oh they you know they you can expect to get some numbers out of him

and the caps have so many of those guys i didn't think they'd be in that conversation, but one three and one through five games minus 12 goal differential for the Capitals, which is pretty close to the league worst. They have yet to lead. In the season, they haven't led a hockey game for 10 seconds. They won one when they beat the Flames, who may also

not be great in a shootout, but they haven't led yet. What did you think, first of all, of the call that led to Ovechkin getting a penalty shot? Let's hear it, Sam. Well, it's stupid. It's not a penalty shot. It's a trip. You could quibble with that, too, but it's a trip.

It's a penalty. Arm goes up. And those refs, they're such showboats. Has it up forever. Everyone's waiting on it. Points to center. Come on. Just give me's waiting on it. Points of center ice. Come on. Just give me a break. He did not make a call until Ovi gave him the hairy eyeball.

I don't know. I didn't replay it, but that's how I remembered it. There was a bit of a delay. Every time they do a penalty shot, all these refs who just love to hold't they used to do this? They love to hold it up there a second, and then they'll be like, trip. I did. Oh, no. I did get the sense that Ovi called it. Yeah, you should be allowed to.

If you're in the league and you get a chance to give Ovechkin a breakaway against the Leafs, you'll love that. No one's mad at the ref. Hold on now. He takes a penalty, and the guy's on a breakaway. He wasn't on a breakaway. They were stride for stride at the blue line. He has a weird conception of a breakaway.

If a guy is on your back, and it's you and the goalie, you're breaking away. A breakaway is when a guy blows a shoe at the blue line, and you're in all along. You're thinking of a penalty shot. That's not my interpretation of what needs to happen. What needs to happen is I need to have one legitimate step on you. One legitimate step. One legitimate step. So being on the right side of a guy like if i am on the inside and you you do anything illegal to keep me away from getting a scoring opportunity which i've now positioned myself to uh that's a penalty shot for me that's it i. I just, I have got the inside track.

The one step is your own rule though. That's not in the book. The only thing keeping me from now getting my clear opportunity to go in on this goalie is being hooked, being tripped, being whatever. Okay. That's it.

That's all I need is you taking away a legitimate scoring opportunity that I've earned with my body position. And would you argue that that play by Giordano took away the scoring opportunity because he still got the scoring opportunity? Yeah, I'm okay with it. I am more lax on it now than I've ever been before.

Yeah, I like it. I like the idea of if you call it with some frequency, the onus defenders start to feel like they can't take those. You're going to give the guy two cracks because he's going to get a shot off and you're going to give him another. So maybe they'll just let breakaways be breakaways, which I like. The problem is again,

how many officials we have and how many feel a little differently on how they interpret the rule and some give it away a little easier than others so when ovi is standing at center ice waiting for the ref to blow the whistle for the penalty shot how much money would the leafs have paid him to use his backhand and not his shot and he just so willingly went in if you dumped a dinky little backhand on never knew anything about his history oh my you would say i can't score that that score. That guy will never score more than 20 in a season. He should skate to the hash marks and Claude Giroux, Robert Reichel,

whoever you want, just slap it. I was really taken back by that move. It was terrible. The air quotes move? I was completely offended by it. I was really shocked. That's a beer league move. But the thing is i mean you guys have

seen his stick your gear guys like huge hook it's got a that's a hard thing to go backhand on just come in and rip it man yeah it's joe wool it's not carry for that to me didn't mean to do that i watch him do that and i'm like that's like that's a guy with no confidence that's my move in practice during my career on richter you know all the good goalies like that's one one move no fake to the back end and and what do you got here that ovi is now two for 13 in his career on penalty shots how does he not go in there and just which it? Great scorer who can't score in those spots. Full speed. Just full speed clapper.

I don't mind if he takes it out to the wall and cuts it to the middle, make the goalie shuffle a bit before he rips it from the middle of the rink. I'm fine with that. Not to get Coach Bombay back in here, but I hate those around there. Yeah, you don't get any of this stuff. Straight line. How dumb is that? Make the goalie shuffle and lose his net a little bit.

All the way to the boards is so stupid. It's not stupid. It is. There's logic behind it. Anyways. But they could have been down 2-0 early. 2-1. Yeah.

Joseph Wall. Yeah. The dude. Should we do some listening to Mr. Keefe? You want to go on wall, or you want to go over his overall look at the game first? Let's go overall. Okay.

Let's do it. It was in the box of very strong goaltending, timely scoring, and I thought a good discipline third period. The time's not great, but there's a lot of things in the third period that we can build upon in terms of managing leads. Things we can build upon in the third period in terms of managing leads. That was a

boring period, which is a coach's dream. Yeah. It was nice to see them be able to play four lines that whole period, where I think the fourth line got up to around 12 minutes, 13 minutes, which we played the clip yesterday. If that was his aim or did we play that clip?

Anyways, his aim was to get them between eight and 12 minutes and he got them to their high end, which is good. And all the big boys are under 20. The two highest time on ice guys in the NHL right now for forwards are Matthews and Marner over as a Luke Fox wrote about that. And we have him on today. We'll ask him. But over a minute more than the third-place guy, which is Jack Hughes.

So you're talking almost 24 minutes a night through six games of the season. Wouldn't you have thought at some point during the summer... This is a nightmare. It's a sweet spot. You hate it. At some point during the summer, you're like,

we've got to find ways to stretch it out, not kill these guys. And, you know, Marner, we've had this conversation. We've had it a million times. Let's have it again. It's a relevant conversation. But it happens when you're chasing the game. Well, that's exactly what I was speaking of earlier. So now you're a little desperate, and now you're just,

you're falling in the same trap there is knock-on effects to chasing games for sure not getting enough ryan reese action right now we're at eight minutes a night i think for him well i think that's probably the appropriate amount unfortunately yeah yeah fair enough so wool wool gives the performance he does. We do that again? What was that? Let's have that drop again. I come in pretty hot. All right, all right. Why don't we go to Keith on Wool and get his thoughts on the goaltending and we can carry on there.

Yep. How composed he was, yet athletic at the same time. Like composed and under control and then there's some, you know, that require a great deal of athleticism to be able to make, you know, sort of a desperation-type save. And he tracks the puck and he finds it, and he has the athleticism and strength and flexibility to get there. So, yeah, it was impressive. Yeah, we saw it too.

Yeah, he likes them. We saw it too. That's good. But I don't even know if, you know, we talk about goalie controversies. Is there a controversy about who's the better goalie? Like when you watch the games? You know, one guy has a track record in the NHL that's pretty good, and one guy's pretty new.

So I guess there is a question. I'm not saying he's a starting goalie. I think this is going to be a pretty close to even split. I'm not saying one's the guy, one's the other guy, but I think it's pretty clear who the better goalie is. I don't think it's a controversial statement. I don't think anybody would waver off of that. Let's be honest.

You know where this is heading. Oh, yeah. Right? No, I don't. Tell me. Right to Joseph Wall. He's going to be their starter in year eight of the all-in years i would think that uh i would have hoped if i was brendan shanahan or or brad tree living that

i wouldn't have to ask it in october yeah but there's a very good reason why you refuse to give Samsonov a long-term deal because you think this guy will be the guy. That's interesting. To see the Samsonov lack of contract is an endorsement of all.

The only question is how long will it take? And if he's not quite ready, then it's a year of backing up and then depending on how you feel about samsonov getting an upper another opportunity like he got last year or you have to make a bold decision by the trade deadline and really you probably want to know by january if you're going to be replacing one of your two guys or if samsonov's going to be just a decent backup goaltender for him or whatever it certainly things have changed over six games of the season compared to how we started things off i knew this would i knew this was going to be a conversation but i didn't know it was

going to happen this soon right now for sure right one of the reasons the thing the game goes his way last night joe wool is the the cap score early keith goes to jordan bean and crew put him in the hall of fame they get another one right you text sam and i about the goal before i was at the broadview intersection i was at blore danforth bridge i was at dufferin station yeah the first time i saw it i thought ovi who crashed in oh he crashed yeah he crashed but he made the contact early it didn't appear like actually when they shot the puck in that he was affecting wall in any way i thought maybe they would let it slide but it's the aggressiveness to go in there on your own and make the original contact that got them the call. Yeah. I couldn't believe,

like, and we'll listen to Keefe and how he waited or whatever, took the time out. But to me, that was crazy. It was an obvious challenge.

Immediately a challenge. Well, I see Kip's point that... He comes flying and he almost took the net off its moorings. But it's eight seconds before the goal. Like, lots happens after that.

There's a grace period where you have to give a goaltender an opportunity to either recover or... It's hard to recover when there's a 230-pound guy lying behind you in the net. Well, that ended up being the call, but it

doesn't touch him until... The second I saw it, I was like, challenge. Immediate challenge. And shout out to the TTC for having service on the subway. I'm just watching the game on my phone on the subway. It's incredible. Roger, Sportsnet Plus. It's incredible.

It's available anywhere. It's incredible. I was literally watching it on the subway, and it's just like I was challenged immediately. Yeah. All right, let's get Keith's thoughts on the goaltender interference challenge. That's clip three. Derek.

It's a big moment in the game. It gives us a chance to regroup after that, and then ultimately we score first. So now we're ahead on the scoreboard versus chasing the game. So to that end, it's big. In terms of the timeout, I wasn't in the timeout. That was a lot, and I wasn't confident at the time. I needed some time to process it,

and some of our communication with our video coaches, it was just, there was some uncertainty, but I did recognize that it was a big moment. I thought there was a good chance there that it could come back, but those ones are tricky. So it wasn't really about getting another view or anything like that. It was more just a little more time to process it all. Just give me a minute. You don't become a 95% success challenger without taking your due time.

Time. Time to analyze these things. It is quite the run. The video team's on. Unbelievable. Was it 10 in a row or something? Red hot. Yeah.

That's great. It's like the anti-John Schneider. Who gets them exclusively wrong. That's so shameful. You. That's great. It's like the anti-John Schneider. Who gets them exclusively wrong. That's so shameful. You have video and people. So that's a huge play for them, right? People are like, is it Sheldon Keefe who, he gets all the credit, right? I know.

Like, it's like, oh, Sheldon Keefe's hot. It's like. No, Beaner's hot. He's got the worst view ever. The worst view ever. The guy's standing up. Yeah. They give him the courtesy of looking at it once,

but the decision is made in the back room, is it not? For sure. Although, you would just say he has to make the official decision. And a goal like last night, you could see a guy being like, he just doesn't touch him, Beaner. You're wrong. Yeah. You know, but.

I wonder how many times he said, no, I'm going against touch him, Beaner. You're wrong. I wonder how many times he said, no, I'm going against you. Let's get Jordan Bean on here. How many overrules per year do you get? Any? I wonder if the Leafs would give them to us. You got a better chance. By the way, no. They would not.

Any celebrity we would have a better chance on than getting the leafs video coach on this i'm not sure the most thrilling interview anyway brendan yeah it's the video coach i'm going on the real kipper and boyd show yeah can you send a car can you send a car for me thanks brendan yeah sure that one's happening probably Probably doesn't have the club. Willie and Tavares. Yeah, we got to talk about a couple people on this team up front. Yeah. John Tavares, number one.

Well, I will say this, that I think he's passing the puck better than I've seen in a long time. Between him and Willie. Tavares is? Yes. Oh, yeah, I agree. And I don't have, you know, you guys know how I feel about the Leafs passing the puck. I don't think, you know, you guys know how I feel about the Leafs passing the puck.

I don't think they're very good. And I think Tavares and Matthews over the years have been not the best playmakers. They're shooters. They score goals. Tavares is great. Yeah, they love their cookies. They're paid for cookies. They love their cookies. They're paid for cookies. They love their cookies.

But I see more of a heads up from Tavares with Willie this year, which is a nice sight for me. Maybe seeing Willie play so well, he's like, oh, I can get this guy the puck. I can get some cookies. You know, this is a good opportunity for him. I liked

Pertuzzi as a fit on that line. I thought they looked really good. And I think it's more a conversation about what 88 looks like than anybody. Sure, he's making everyone great. But still, so Jonas Siegel, the athletic, had an article on Tavares today and working on his skating over the years. Now Tavares feels like he skates better than he did when he first came into the league. Oh, he's in the best shape of his life.

Best shape of his life. He is what he is. I'm going to give you data. Hang on, but here's the NHL edge data. He is what he is. I'm going to give you data. I'm going to give you data. He is what he is. Best shape of his life. Thanks to NHL's newly available tracking data, we can see that Tavares has already achieved a top speed of over 22 miles per hour, faster than at any point last season, and in the least 90th percentile.

He's on pace to have significantly more bursts over 20 miles per hour than he had last season or the season before that. Working his bag off. Skating is not. He has to work his ass off. His bag, in fact. His bag to skate. I was told I can't say that on TV.

I was going to say we are on TV. We're on TV now. Anyway. I mean, scrotum is better. No? Might as well cut the euphemisms and just get to it here. Yeah, I think that's better. All nuts are equal.

You appreciate that a little better, Sammy? I mean, are we okay with that? I love it. Okay. I love you guys. The thing is with some guys that skating doesn't come as naturally to, like Willie, is that over 82 games, it gets a little tiresome you mean tavarez tavarez yeah you know it's just a matter of how hard he can put how hard he's pushing now and what's it going to

look like at in january and then ultimately what it looks like in in march and april and that's the biggest challenge for guys and that's why minutes are really really hard yes in terms of managing them and i think tavara's guy whose minutes have been a little lesser yeah which is good so the willie conversation we've gone four minutes without talking about his contract which good job by us actually we barely talked about it this year i've gone from a lot you know i've had a lot of different thoughts on how much you need to pay him i think you just just got to maybe pay the man his money. Wow.

Teddy KGB makes the call. You don't have to do it now, but eventually you just got to get there. You can't let him go. Did you just say the same thing? You agree? You just got to get there? No, I'm saying you don't have to make that decision today or tomorrow. You know, I...

By far the best you've ever learned. If you have time, if you have time, then use it. Like, I'll use Buffalo as an example, where they just raced to sign Rasmus, Darlene, and Owen Power. And I don't know, just keep the carrot dangling out there. You'll just push them and keep them hungry. Why give it to them right away when you don't have to? And I look at Willie, and Willie's better,

but I got to be honest with you. I mean, Willie still has Willie habits out there that I want cleaned up. Yeah. Okay. Let me just finish. This is the example that I saw last night out of Willie, and this is what I've seen in the past,

and this is what has to get cleaned up in Willie's game. Okay. has to get cleaned up in Willie's game. Okay? They have Tavares out there with Nylander and I think Nyes, I think. Anyways, Tavares gets the redirect. They're out there for about 30 seconds, 35. Could have been an easy decision for Sheldon to pull him off the ice. Good. Hey, it's a little early, but got the goal. Keep things moving.

No, Sheldon lets them go and take the center ice face off. They spend now a minute on the ice. They finally get out of their own zone. It pushes towards Washington's end. Tavares, good change. Nyes, or maybe Bertuzzi, one of the two, off. Good change. Not Willie.

Willie stays on. Was it a four check where, like, someone needed to keep pressure on? They do that. Like, even if it's bad, they keep one guy on the ice at all times. No, no, no, no, no. Get off the ice, Willie. You're well over a minute. Get off the ice. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Get off the ice, Willie. Yeah, all of them do. You're well over a minute. Get off the ice.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. Puck goes back into the Leafs zone. Now there's Marner back there, and there's Matthews deep in their own zone. Where's Willie? I'm up here by the blue line. Hey, the biggest poacher right now in the league gets his break or scores his goal.

Oh, my God. This example of him scoring? Yeah. A gorgeous goal where he holds a guy off. Great gorgeous goal. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

I remember that one. Let's go back to Florida. Okay? In the playoffs. And he scored big goals for the team. Yeah. Okay. Come on. There's scored big goals for the team. Yeah, okay, come on. There's also some defensive.

Those type of situations where you're banking on poaching and hanging and longer shifts than you should when you should be changing, those things come back and haunt you. And that's the stuff that 82 games should clean up that's all if willie gets to go out there and just do what willie wants because willie needs 40 goals to get 10 and a half million dollars this thing's not heading in the right direction yeah i mean i will say it is important to remember that there are things so last year my memories of willie in the playoffs are the leafs best best forward, essentially.

The most dynamic, impactful guy on a night-to-night basis. However, if you follow me on Twitter, you saw me tweet videos of Willie playing defense at times. Yeah, but... But those moments happen, and they're real. Watch any top wingers who's scoring wingers' moments. What happened last game? Him and Tavares puck-watching on a back check.

Like, it doesn't happen like that to Mitch Marner. No, but he's not Mitch Marner. It's to steal a line from the phone stealer. Play the right way. What? Who's at fault? Babcock. Oh.

Just play the right way. Just getting better habits. And it's just, you can't just go and do what you want to do and freewheel it and, you know, wave your stick up and look for the breakaway all the time. Like, yeah, it finished nicely. He scored a nice goal. But you didn't come off when you should

have come off and sometimes it it can ripple into well if he can do it i can do it if he can stay out there an extra 15 seconds 20 seconds why can't it and what it does is also screws up the rhythm you've been on games where your winger stays too long and it's cutting into your ice time and now your shift is half of what your line mates shift is and it throws everything off these are little things that your average viewer can't see but i'm telling you right now those things matter and they do to sheldon keith which is why it's interesting that you find it as a recurring thing because keith talks about this word all the time sequencing he always talks about how a good dump will allow fresh legs which will allow good forecheck pressure which allows

the next line to play in the offensive zone and how all these things the little decisions throughout a shift impact the next guys on the ice where they play what sort of pressure they're applying once they get out there and how important that sequence is so to have a guy who you feel like is staying out longer or is maybe not a part of the positive sequences i'm sure his coach doesn't love that yeah and it's just it's just trying to lower kneel and it's just playing the right way it's just playing the right way and you know the stuff that you think you can get away with with washington and chicago and all of that okay dallas thursday let me ask you this good test it's a great test and i have no there's no fear in me that he's gonna go out there and not play

well because he's been really good but at some point you don't you just kind of have to he is what he is like i don't think at this point of his career you're like play more defensive stop cheating stop scoring all those breakaways like well listen at the end of the day he's a really he's gone to another level that i never thought he could get to like the last year and this year the consistency everything that and it's just i accept the couple brain farts defensively a game for the 40 goals he's going to get you. That's just where I'm at with him. And what then? Another first round exit? Not necessarily.

Hey, they made it past the first round last year, Kip. Remember? John scored in overtime and then they lost in five. John did it. Yeah, but he's not the only guy out there. They have defensive, they have forwards who have conscience. Like, they have, they're stars. Marner and Matthews both have great consciences.

Like, they, I just don't mind. He has utility, and he's very dynamic in his utility. Yes. He does what he does exceptionally well. You can go give him 10 and a half at 11, and there's still no proof that all that firepower and up front and an extra 10 goals from Willie is the right balance for this team to win yeah i listen i think i think you're you're right we're on a show theme of kip being like

that guy who's awesome maybe he needs to play defense that's you know hey listen it's not a bad thing his coach is probably saying the same thing just tighten it up that's all yeah i mean you're talking about trying to win every other night for two months to win a stanley cup that's all gotcha what do you think about oh sorry a little break to get luke here soon all right what were you gonna say i'm just gonna ask about mitch marner he's had a slow start in my opinion one goal four assists in six games yeah not even close to uh where his standard where he we've seen him in the past he's typically been a 100-point-ish guy. And so it's just a slow start.

I would like to point out that Matthews got an assist last night. Yes. On the breakaway. Off the 200-foot poacher. Great pass. Every team needs a striker, buddy. Exactly. All right.

We'll take a quick break. As Sam alluded to, Luke Fox, NHL writer for Sportsnet.ca. He's on the road. And he's going to fill us in on great stuff like, I don't know, a rookie dinner. That's where I got Ryan Reeves written all over it, doesn't it? Okay. Luke Fox after the break. You're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born.

Alright, we're back. Now I'd like to join us, Luke Fox, who's traveling with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Our trusted Leaf reporter, Sportsnet.ca. Sammy, did you clean up? And then I was in the shot for the camera. My arm was in the way. Have a good day, boys.

Okay, just reminding fans, Sam's new to being a celebrity. So it's going to take some time. Still got the 1990 earphones going on, though. Looking good. You know who's not new to being a celebrity is Luke Fox. Good stuff. Luke, what's going on? Not much.

Just road life. I made it to Dallas for the next game. And kind of interesting. I wanted to ask you something, Kipper. So originally they planned to practice here in delhi and then after the win last night they canceled practice and i was wondering like would that have been something maybe the coach would dangle as a carrot before the game did that ever happen in your playing days yeah it did I'm just wondering like, was that a solid enough performance? Forget the score, the two points.

Did you see enough that warranted a big reward? No. All right. So maybe Joseph wall should have the day off and nobody else. Exactly. No, I mean, it's, it's kind of, we've seen this leaf win before, right? A bit of a slow start. They got a fantastic goaltending performance by Joseph Wall, who's kind of the talk of the season so far.

And then they have guys, multiple guys, that are paid a lot to bury their chances, and they do. That's all you need is like these little moments of brilliance, whether it's John Tavares making an incredible tip or Willie Nylander going off on a crazy rush, beating Jensen, frustrating Spencer Carberry, and potting it upstairs. They just need moments, a little give and go with Marner and Matthews,

and you take control of the game, and then you lean on your goalie to bail you out. Luke, right before we went to break, we started talking about Mitch Marner a bit. There's a lot that's been going well for this Leafs team. There's a lot of new people that are inspiring a lot of questions, and that's all fair. Marner's the one guy, to me, of the core four

who started a little slowly here. Just a goal and four assists, same Morgan Riley through six games um his line mate Matthews has eight points what are your thoughts on his start this year maybe not quite looking like his typical self yeah I was talking about this with someone recently it's rare that we go five six games without one of those Marner games right one of those games where you're talking about, you know, him making plays at both ends of the ice, you know, back-checking and breaking up stuff, turning the other way, having like a three-assist night or, you know,

being clearly the first star of the game. And we haven't really had that. I mean, I don't think he's been bad by any means whatsoever. And he is kind of quietly getting some points. But I would say of the big four forwards, he's probably been the least spectacular offensively so far. I don't think it's cause for concern. I just think we're due for one of those Marner games.

The one thing I will say about marner is i this is uh the longest stretch i can remember where it just feels like he doesn't have the puck yeah that's well put as much as he's had in the past and i don't know whether or not it's it's him or maybe they're just not getting him the puck as much as they used to either, where it's just identified that once Matthews is in any zone, he's going to get the puck to 16, and then he's going to try to get open, and he's going to try to shoot it in the net. But there just doesn't seem to me the time on his stick like he's had in the past with it. No, I'd agree with you and i i think i'd maybe point

to the left side and the fact there's 11 tryouts on that top line uh so maybe that's part of it like maybe you know maybe michael bunting went a little underappreciated uh he was he really fit in well with those guys and i don't want to be too hard on bertuzzi yet because uh you know it's obvious that that he's battling something and you want to give it more time uh but already shelvin keith has gone to his his fixer his his new kerfoot there in kelly yarn crock and hopefully he digs the pucks but i i think maybe that's it you know maybe they're just not getting the puck back quick enough and getting it into his hands um but yeah i i agree with you uh nick yeah, he doesn't seem to have the puck quite as much as he used to.

It is, you know, I understand why we want to be hesitant in criticizing Bertuzzi, new system, new team, possibly battling something. You know, that is a pretty sweet spot on the left side of Tavares and Nylander right now. And before that, it was Matthews and Marner kind of given every opportunity. I don't know.

What are you seeing or hearing around the rink there about where he's at in terms of finding his game? When he's at his best, does it look much different than this? And may I say, as someone who covers the team, I kind of hope so because it hasn't been awesome. Yeah, well, and I think just because of how he left Boston, right? He was their most dangerous player in that first round loss to Florida. And because the UFA market was so thin, he got really hyped up just deal, but he's settling for one-year deal because he's going to join the Leafs

and he's going to get this great opportunity to play in the Leafs' top line or definitely top six. And then out of the gate, it's like, oh, does he fit? Is he feeling well? So last practice, they're in the middle of doing drills, and he stopped for a while just to stretch things out. So I'm sure he's something less than 100%, but the Leafs are so tight to the cap,

and their only extra forward right now is young Fraser Minton. So I think they're kind of hesitant to go right to him. So we'll see, but you're right. I think there's another level for Bertuzzi to get to, although since saying that, I think he was decent last night and looked okay with Nylander and Tavares. Yeah, I think he took a small step there. We're talking to Luke Fox, columnist with the Sportsnet.ca.

So how far into the game last night when the media suite where you guys all watch, did the conversation turn to who starts Thursday in that for the Leafs against Dallas? Yeah, definitely after two periods. For sure. And to me, I think you have to go with Joseph Wall. I mean, the guys dialed in. You have to reward excellence. you have in my mind i

know you want to be sensitive to ilya samson off and and you he's the guy you're paying more money he's the more experienced guy you want two goalies feeling good about their game you don't want to lose them but at the same time a guy gives you a performance like that basically you know keeps you in the game when you come out flat uh only allows one goal hasn't allowed an even strength goal in a long time now you just got to ride the hot hand in my opinion um you know and and i why not start the guy who's feeling good when this is your first i think this is going to be your best test of the season dallas is a real team uh like, I have them amongst, you know,

a handful of teams that could win the Stanley Cup. And so you get a real test to see how your team measures up to another power in the league. Lead with your best hand. Start the goalie that's playing the best for you right now. Look, if you had to guess, based on six games' worth of information this season, what looks different on this Leafs team in playoffs

in terms of roster construction? Like what, whether it be new player here, lineup change there, what can you see eventually needing to change for this team to get back to better than they were in playoffs last year? Wow, the blue line. You know, I just, the mix seems off.

Like, do they have a shutdown pair? I don't think so. To me, they don't, right? I think Riley Brody is great. Jake McCabe, it has to be him. Well, I'm not telling you that he can do it. I'm just telling you that it has to be him until somebody steps up otherwise. Well, I don't think Brad Trillum is satisfied.

I think there will be a move. I would be stunned if they just lean on what they have. Yeah, I kind of feel the same way, you know, whether that fourth line right now is going to be enough and their depth scoring, you know, right now Reeves playing eight minutes a night, you know, I, that contract already, I'll be honest, kind of concerns me, but I guess you don't worry about future years in the future, but you know, their depth guys,

do you think it's another thing where that fourth line is the way that they want to have it yet yeah well i think i think in a perfect world and we saw that with how they went through training camp is you want david camp as your fourth line center and not pontus holmberg i think the there is a weakness up the middle i don't think they have quite the depth there and that's really reflective in the ice times. Like if you guys look that the top two forwards by ice time in the whole NHL are Matthews and Marner. And part of that's because keeps trying to win every single night and he's trailing behind. And these are the guys he believes are going to get him a goal. But it also speaks to just the lack of trust farther down and you know the vegas gold knights they would just roll all four lines they wouldn't care if the other team threw out

their top six they were completely fine with having their third or fourth line out there and not not getting so caught up in the matchup game not over taxing their best players uh so i mean what they have now it's fine they're gonna be fine the regular season but that's another point that that you make just as is the depth of the forward group i don't know if it can withstand you know best of sevens against the elite teams in the league so if it's camp or holmberg is your fourth. What are they doing in the three hole? Because... Yeah, Kemp or Holmberg. No.

The other one. Any thought of rumblings that they're ready to send back Minton? Or do they... Have they been? Are they looking for a third line centerman? I don't know if anyone's ready to make trades yet. I mean, we're still in October. But I would think that that is something that they will explore.

I mean, they wanted to bring back Ryan O'Reilly, and then he didn't want to come back. So then all of a sudden, your next move is, let's turn Nylander into a center. You abandon that, and you say, okay, let's have this teenager who impressed us in camp. Let's see if he can be the fix. They quickly realized after four games that he's probably not ready

as much as we love his potential. And then you're calling up Holmberg. It's an obvious hole. Now, I'm waiting any day now to get some sort of notification from Leafs PR saying they're sending him back to Kamloops, Minton. But I wonder if it's because of Bertuzzi's health that they're carrying the extra forward instead of the extra defenseman on this trip still.

You going cowboy boot shopping or anything? You need a big hat? I could see you in Dallas coming back, like, you know, working on Yellowstone or that type of look. No, but I do have family here. So I'm going to catch up

with my uncle, who actually used to play in the show way back when in the 70s. So I'm sure we'll be talking hockey tonight. Nice. Get a chicken fried steak. Alright. Thanks, Luke. Okay. Take care, guys. Luke Fox.

Sportsnet.ca Minton. Yeah. And just the decision to keep him and then just kind of abandon, and Luke just spoke about this moments ago abandoning like willie neilander in in the middle and how because you didn't have that week or two weeks during training camp and exhibition games to really look at willie yeah how weird would it be now if they

did in the latter part of october early nove, start going back to Willie at Center Ice? Can you see that? My biggest regret is not going harder on them for abandoning the Willie experiment. It was built so big. It was the first press conference Keefe had. And it was the first thing he said. He said, we're not going to give it a run. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And then they were like, they had an option. Like a 19 year old second round draft choice made you like ditch it completely. The kid played so well, but it shouldn't have mattered. Like it shouldn't have mattered. It should have been him and Willie kind of going through it together because you may need it. There was a purpose and a reason and a game plan for publicly coming out, making such a big deal out of Willie Nylander being a potential centerman

to start the season. And lo and behold, here we are five games in, and you got a major issue in your third line centerman they should do it right now they should just you know every not against dallas every game you wait to do this if it's something that you're going to want to take a real look at because they did say they may go back to it even when they moved him back to wing every day they don't go back to it it gets harder to go back to it and it gets harder to for willie to. And it gets harder for Willie to be ready for playoffs. This is all about building for playoffs,

and you should probably figure out if the guy can play center in the NHL at this point or not, which according to my guy over here who thinks he's a poacher. Yeah, I was never really thrilled on him at center. Unless he changed dramatically, because they tend to have to in different spots on the rink but below your own goal line yeah on occasion you need a map judging what i saw last night that's still a bit of a challenge um yeah and by the way yeah i still think he's gonna get

10 and a half or 11 million bucks yeah i do he's that good like panarin's a defense he's that good with with words change yeah austin matthews on pat mcafee you care yeah did you listen to it i did maybe we can talk about it a bit in the national hour but yeah okay we'll talk about uh austin uh going on the big show our show not our show he's not that ready for the next level all right more a real kipper andborn after the break. We go national. Stick around.